Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 20 June 2017
Public Accounts Committee
2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
9:00 am
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The committee is now in public session. We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, as permanent witness to the committee. He is joined by Mary Henry, deputy director of audit. The Chairman, Deputy Sean Fleming, sends his apologies that he cannot attend today.
We will take the business of the committee at the meeting next Thursday.
Today, we will continue looking at the 2015 appropriation accounts both for the Garda Síochána and dealing specifically with the internal audit of financial procedures in the Garda College. The committee met to deal with this matter on 4 May, 31 May and 13 June. Today, the committee will engage with the Garda Commissioner, Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan, who is the Accounting Officer. The second session of the committee today will take place at 7 p.m. with the Policing Authority and the Department of Justice and Equality. The focus of today's meeting will be what has happened since 2015, the interim audit report and its implementation. As was the case at the previous meeting, I ask that members and witnesses co-operate in this regard. Representatives of the Garda Síochána present include the sole witness for this session, Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan. She is supported by the deputy commissioner in charge of governance and strategy, Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin; Mr. John Twomey, deputy commissioner; Mr. Joseph Nugent, chief administration officer; Superintendent Marie Broderick, private secretary to the Commissioner; Inspector Darren McCarthy of the office of the Commissioner; and Mr. Andrew McAlinden, director of communications. All are very welcome. We are again joined by Ms Anne Barry of the Department of Justice and Equality.
I remind members, witnesses and those in the Visitors Gallery that all mobile phones must be switched off.
I advise the witness that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if she is directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, she is entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. The witness is directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, she should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.
Members of the committee are reminded of the provisions of Standing Order 186 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits or objectives of such policies. They are also reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
We are joined by the people I have mentioned. The Commissioner will be the sole witness in this session. She is supported by those around her. However, no questions will be directed at anyone other than the Commissioner. If she needs to confer with any of those with her today, she may do so in regard to answering questions but no evidence will be given by anyone other than the Commissioner. I ask the Commissioner to make her opening statement.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
I wish to provide the Vice Chairman and members with an update on resolving the unacceptable financial issues in the Garda College found in the interim audit report by the Garda internal audit service. This is in addition to the actions that I advised the committee have been taken following the receipt by the Garda executive of the draft interim audit report in September 2016. As members are aware, these issues have their origin in the funding model set up for the Garda College several decades ago. These are very complex and complicated financial and legal arrangements that in some cases require us to take expert advice to resolve them and ensure they cannot happen again. Notwithstanding this, we are determined to resolve them as quickly as possible as they clearly do not meet modern corporate governance or financial standards. All of the recommendations of the interim audit report will be implemented and we are happy to provide periodic updates on our progress to the Comptroller and Auditor General, the Department of Justice and Equality, the Policing Authority and the independent Garda audit committee. On that note, I wish to advise the committee that on Friday of last week the head of the Garda internal audit section provided me with a verbal briefing on concerns he had in regard to particular financial matters relating to activities in the Garda College. Following this meeting, I requested that a written report from the internal audit service be provided on Monday. I reviewed the report yesterday and, based on the information available, the matter has now been referred to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, for investigation. I am also conscious that the Garda internal audit section is continuing its audit of the Garda College and any further issues that may arise as that audit progresses will be addressed and appropriate action taken by the Garda executive.
As the Chairman has said, those accompanying me are available to assist the committee in any way possible.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I thank the Commissioner for her opening statement. The delay in the commencement of this meeting related to a number of documents that the committee received late last night and needed time to go through. One of those documents from the Commissioner refers to the fact that on Friday last the internal auditor, Mr. Kelly, gave the witness a verbal report on the area of EU-funded training programmes and projects and the witness yesterday received his written report on the matter and referred it to GSOC. Is that correct?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Has the witness notified the Minister for Justice and Equality of this issue under section 41(b) of the Garda Síochána Act?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Department has been informed.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What is the differentiation between this issue being immediately referred under section 41(b) of the Garda Síochána Act and it taking a considerable amount of time for the report received by the Commissioner in July 2015 to be brought to the attention of the Department of Justice and Equality, with that eventually occurring, as the committee found out, through the Department being copied on an email looking for legal advice? How does the Commissioner distinguish between using section 41(b) of the Act to refer this issue, of which she learned on Friday, within one working day, and taking a huge amount of time to refer the original report that was allegedly brought to her attention in July 2015?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
The Vice Chairman has made a number of points in that question. I will take them in sequence. There is a very significant difference between the report that was received yesterday and the report that was received in July. The difference is that I yesterday received a report from the head of our Garda internal audit section to say that he had reasonable suspicions about activity regarding a particular account-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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For clarification, did the Commissioner receive the report yesterday or on Friday?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
I got a verbal briefing on Friday from the head of internal audit, Mr. Kelly. I asked him could he complete his report over the weekend and deliver it to me by Monday. I received his completed report yesterday. On receipt of that report, Mr. Kelly informed me that, as a result of the audit he was and is conducting in regard to a particular account he identified in connection with which he suspected suspicious activity had taken place, he referred the matter under section 59 of the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001. It was very clear. In such a significant case, the Policing Authority as well as the Department of Justice and Equality would always be informed. Mr. Kelly spoke with the Comptroller and Auditor General in this regard and Deputy Commissioner Ó Cualáin informed the chair of the audit committee. All relevant parties were informed yesterday. Mr. Kelly also informed the European Anti-Fraud Office, which is known as OLAF.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Who did Mr. Kelly inform?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Commissioner found it necessary, because of the seriousness in regard to potential fraud and theft in connection with what she was informed of in writing yesterday, that the issue be referred to all of the bodies mentioned, including the Department, through the Secretary General, under section 41(b). However, she distinguished that from the scale of issues brought to her attention in July 2015 that she felt should not be brought to the attention of the Secretary General under section 41(b).
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
As I said, there are several points I would like to clarify because many were raised in the Vice Chairman's question. Perhaps I may deal with them in sequence. The first point related to why I referred on the matters that I received a report on yesterday. Mr. Kelly, the head of internal audit, who, as members know, has a statutory function, told me that he considers there is sufficient suspicion that fraud may have been committed in respect of a particular account. On that basis, I decided to refer the matter to the Department and the Policing Authority. As I said, my colleagues Mr. Kelly and deputy commissioner Ó Cualáin informed the chair of the audit committee, the Comptroller and Auditor General and OLAF. Those are the appropriate steps to take.
In July 2015, I became aware that a number of issues had been identified in regard to broader activities of the Garda College.
This is a very specific issue and there is reasonable cause to suspect that fraud has been committed on an account. That is why the matter was referred to GSOC yesterday to examine the report and to make further inquiries to see if a criminal offence has been committed.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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In summary, the distinction is that yesterday Ms O'Sullivan felt that because there were specific allegations of theft and fraud, it was worthwhile notifying the Department under section 41. However, in July 2015, a date which is disputed and which we will clarify later, Ms O'Sullivan did not feel that the broad issues relating to a multiplicity of concerns on the issue of the Garda College were of such magnitude as to warrant referral to the Department of Justice and Equality under the same legislation.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Perhaps I can give my view of what happened in July 2015. I was made aware that certain issues had been raised about the Garda College. There were a multitude of various issues. It was very clear from the information that was in my possession at the time and from briefings that I got from colleagues that more information was required. However, I was very anxious that there would be full transparency on the matters that we were looking at. A working group was established, with the Department of Justice and Equality involved and with full sight and full visibility from the Department.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Ms O'Sullivan was inquiring months later.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
It was also evident from the inquiries I made from my own office when these matters were brought to my attention that, prior to the matters being brought to my attention in 2015, from a perusal of a file that was there from 2008, it was evident that the Department of Justice and Equality had been involved in some discussions, and indeed there had been external attempts to provide advice and to seek advice to have the matters regularised. I was very unclear as to what had been done from 2008 to 2015, and it was very necessary, on the advice of the then chief administrative officer, the deputy commissioner in charge of governance and strategy, that we needed to compile more information and have a fuller and clearer picture on what precisely had been done from 2008 to 2015.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I find it incredible, I have to say. In the evidence on 4 May, Ms O'Sullivan said she did not feel there was any evidence of misappropriation of funds or fraud. Does she still believe that?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
As I said on 4 May, and as I have always said, the internal audit is ongoing. Matters may be addressed. In my opening address on 4 May, I said the same thing, and as the audit continues and if issues are addressed, they of course will be dealt with appropriately, as we did yesterday.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Ms O'Sullivan now accepts that there is a possibility of misappropriation or fraud.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Is the suspicious activity referred to fraud or misappropriation of funds?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is the scale of what we are talking about.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We as a committee have not seen the report, for the benefit of viewers.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What is the status of the report now? Where is it being referred to, so that the public knows?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Where is it internally?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Where will it go next?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Has it been referred to the audit committee?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Deputy MacSharry is our lead questioner.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It is great to be second lead questioner.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We had to clarify issues relating to the documentation that came through.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Of course. I welcome the Commissioner. She is well aware that this committee is often robust and at times I may have to cut her off because my time is limited and I want to try and get through as much material as I can. Are there any grounds for this report to be made available to us in the context of our work?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, yesterday's report.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that, but is there any reason it could not have been provided to us today?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
There is a process which must be followed, and our primary concern was to refer the matter to GSOC. I and the head of internal audit provided a note to the committee to make it aware. We will have to speak to GSOC, but with its consent I can see no reason the committee cannot have the report. There may be other considerations as well.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It will go to the audit committee on 27 June, irrespective of what GSOC does.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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If Ms O'Sullivan were asking the questions, would she be suspicious about the fact that none of these matters was referred to the Minister under section 41, immediately to the Comptroller and Auditor General and, by dint of this investigation, to GSOC? Does that not preclude us from asking certain questions of Ms O'Sullivan today?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Not at all, because the report will be made available. In case I was not clear to the Chair, the report has been referred, under section 41, to both the Department of Justice and Equality and the Policing Authority. The report will also be made available to the committee. Both Mr. Kelly and Deputy Commissioner Ó Cualáin have been in touch with the chair of the audit committee, and my understanding is that Mr. Kelly has been in contact with the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General and with OLAF.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, I understand. On the basis of his letter to us which says that he has suspicions of fraud, which is criminal activity, would it be Ms O'Sullivan's instinct to refer this matter to GSOC straight away?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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What was Ms O'Sullivan's instinct when she received the letter from the director of finance seeking that a colleague be investigated for a crime?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It seemed pretty specific.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure we can jog Ms O'Sullivan's memory and get this up on the screen if necessary.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I ask the secretariat to put the letter from Mr. Culhane on screen.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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He seemed to have a very specific view that a criminal investigation into a breach of the Official Secrets Act should be carried out into a senior management member. It was only in this room that Mr. Barrett, the subject of that letter, became aware of its full contents after many attempts to source this letter, personally and through his solicitor. Ms O'Sullivan acted swiftly on the comments of the head of internal audit, Mr. Niall Kelly, as to his suspicions of fraudulent activity. He is more junior than the director of finance. When the director of finance wrote to Ms O'Sullivan and suggested that a criminal investigation be carried out into Mr. Barrett for a suspected breech of the Official Secrets Act, how is it that Ms O'Sullivan did not take similar action at that point, if that was her instinct as a lifelong detective?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Perhaps I should deal with the difference between that and yesterday. Yesterday, I received a statutory report from a person with statutory responsibility who I had appointed to conduct an internal audit on these matters. The head of our internal audit unit told me about this. I perceived, as a detective, that the minute I received, along with some other recipients, was the view of a particular individual. On the face of it, it appeared to me that it was an interpersonal difference of opinion between two individuals, and one of the individuals had become aware of something.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It does not say anything about that in the letter. It does not say that "I do not like Mr. X".
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It says, "A criminal investigation under the Official Secrets Act".
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It would be helpful if it was up on the screen.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Is it further down?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
It is probably down further. It is on the second page. What it actually says is:
In collecting all of this confidential material and posting it to himself, I assume to his own home address, is JB unwittingly guilty of a criminal offence under the Official Secrets Act? The Commissioner may wish to initiate a formal investigation of JB's activities under the Official Secrets Act as his intent may appear to be cause damage to An Garda Síochána either through unauthorised disclosure or leaks to the press.
That is a very different scenario than I was presented with yesterday, where my head of internal audit was actually telling me that he believes that-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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That is the Commissioner's director of finance, and that alleges a potential breach of the law too.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Nevertheless. One does not inadvertently rob a bank.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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What did the Commissioner do in evaluating this assessment? Did she ring Mr. Culhane? Did she ring somebody and ask what this was about or did it just go into the file?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
No, it most certainly did not. I made contact with the deputy commissioner of governance and strategy, who was acting Commissioner at the time. I asked him to raise the matter at the next executive, which was on the Tuesday. From memory, this document was received on a Saturday. I asked him to raise it at the next executive. To me, this was an interpersonal dispute between two individuals in a particular line of management. At that time, the line manager was the chief administrative officer. I asked the acting Commissioner to have Mr. Dunne meet with both of the individuals and try to address and resolve this and identify if there were any further actions required.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Dunne did address it with Mr. Barrett. He called it feedback. He got some feedback and had a chat with him. Is that a new way of dealing with fair procedures – that somebody alleges criminal activity by a colleague and then senior management go back and say "Look, I got some feedback"?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Would the Commissioner say that was appropriate?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
What I would say is that Mr. Dunne had to resolve this matter in the best way he thought and my understanding, from documents that I have now seen, is that Mr. Dunne also asked Mr. Culhane if he wished to pursue this matter further, which at that time he did not. Mr. Dunne also gave advice to Mr. Barrett, which I think was quite appropriate. Mr. Barrett was relatively new to the organisation and may not have fully understood the consequences of sending documents off-site, so to speak. Mr. Dunne also gave Mr. Barrett some advice in respect of managing his documents and his files in a more secure manner.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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How many times did Mr. Barrett, personally or through his solicitor, request a copy of this minute the Commissioner described as a letter?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Rather than the exact number, was it more than five?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Why would the Commissioner have not responded to that?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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As in, "Thanks for your letter. We will get back to you. It is being looked into"?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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No, it is not just the timeline I am interested in. It was only in this room a couple of weeks ago that Mr. Barrett found out the full context of that letter. He had only received a redacted version after going through the freedom of information process. When a request was made to the Commissioner looking for this letter, why did she not give it to him?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
The request was received on 25 October 2016. I will have to confer with my colleague, Mr. Nugent, about what day of the week that was. On Tuesday, 26 October that correspondence was acknowledged by my staff and Mr. Barrett was informed that it had gone to the chief administrative officer, his line manager, to be dealt with. That office had previously dealt with the matter. On 26 October, the letter was also sent to the chief administrative officer to address it. So that is one piece of correspondence.
The next piece of correspondence was on 28 October - three days later, which would have been Friday of a bank holiday weekend, when the second piece of correspondence was received from Mr. Barrett.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Why did the Commissioner not just give him the letter?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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No, my time is limited. It is not as important as the Commissioner says. If there was a series of acknowledgements or the matter was looked into or it was a case of Bob passed it to Joe and Mary passed it to John, the net result is that he did not get the letter in its full context until he was in this room with us two weeks ago. I am just asking directly why he did not get a copy of the letter. I am not interested in a chronological list of superficial responses that were given. Rather, I am interested in the substantive issue of why he did not get a copy of the letter and who decided not to give it to him.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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No, my time is up. With no disrespect to the Commissioner, I did say at the outset that sometimes the questions are robust because our time is limited.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Could the Commissioner expedite her reply?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Yes, I can expedite it. That was the Friday of the bank holiday weekend. I might provide some context. This was a weekend when we were dealing with unprecedented threatened industrial action by members of An Garda Síochána. On that Friday, the third piece of correspondence was received from Mr. Barrett. Correspondence was received on the previous Tuesday and the Friday and then on the following Tuesday after the bank holiday weekend. On 2 November, the chief administrative officer had been inquiring from a legal perspective how the documents could be released to Mr. Barrett given there was third-party information involved.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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All right.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Nugent can confer with the Commissioner if he needs to but the Commissioner can answer.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Yes. On 4 November, some ten days later, on the basis of legal advice which said that the document needed to be released, preferably under FOI or data protection, Mr. Nugent informed Mr. Barrett and on 4 November Mr. Barrett's solicitor then requested that. As the committee is aware, that request then went into a process and that process was dealt with and the decision was made about what precisely was released. All of the documents were released to our data protection office and as committee members know there is a process there and it decided what was released.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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In that process, was there any input into the redactions by the Commissioner or other personnel?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Or the Department of Justice and Equality?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I assume the Commissioner is not going to answer any questions relating to the matter that has been referred to GSOC.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Deputy should not assume that.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
If the Deputy wishes to ask a question, then I am very happy to see whether we can answer it. I am conscious that the matter has been referred to GSOC and now forms part of its consideration and examination. I will be precluded from discussing a lot of a detail but I am happy if I can assist the Deputy with his questions.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Is it alleged that a sum of approximately €100,000 is unaccounted for?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Who is the signatory on the account in Cabra?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, but surely the signatory on the account is a matter of fact rather than speculation.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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No. I know who signs my account - it is me. Irrespective, and without prejudice to any investigation about any misappropriation of funds, who is the signatory on the account in Cabra?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Including this committee, in fairness.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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In fairness, that is not very acceptable. The public is watching this debate and people are concerned. In her experience as a detective, I put it to the Commissioner that if she was sitting where I am in recent weeks and I was sitting in her place the complexion of events is not very convincing. Could I ask who is the signatory on the account in Cabra?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Why not?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Who did?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Would Commissioner Callinan have known the signatory on that account?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Would the previous Commissioner know?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Did anybody in the Garda check in the meantime, irrespective of and without prejudice to any investigation by GSOC or otherwise? As a matter of form, who signs for what account for what money?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Commissioner know who the signatory on the account is?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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What about that specific account?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The Commissioner said "all of the signatories", so were there multiple signatories?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that but histories of accounts, transactions and misappropriations or not, as alleged, are all irrelevant.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Who were the most recent signatories on that account?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Why not? They were serving members of An Garda Síochána and public servants. Surely the public is entitled to know who was in a position to lodge, withdraw or transfer funds from an account.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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By way of information, does the Commissioner know the rank level of the people involved?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Of what rank?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The public is entitled to this information. The person is a signatory to an account but that does not mean that he or she was party to any wrongdoing. As I said, this is all without prejudice.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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What about this process? This is a constitutional committee of the State.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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If one was a viewer here, one might say that it was curious that it took 16 months to take action on one level and that it was very convenient to be able to put this to GSOC late yesterday evening.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Now, all of a sudden, we cannot ask questions here today because we have to afford due process to people who were in control of taxpayers' money, without prejudice as to whether they did a great or a terrible job with that. We are now not entitled to know that because very conveniently, it was kicked into GSOC yesterday evening and we are not going to know. It is on the never-never. God knows who will be on the Committee of Public Accounts when that information comes out.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am not inferring anything. I am only asking a question-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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-----as to who signed the account that money was in but the Commissioner is saying that she has to protect the identity of that person. I am not saying that person did anything wrong. I am just asking who was in control of the cash.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, I am sure it is fair to assume that all 12,000 gardaí were not signatories on the account so I am just asking who was.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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If there was an investigation into somebody robbing a shop who happened to work in it, that does not preclude somebody from answering a question and providing the names of the people who worked in the shop. What is the problem?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Sure, but-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The public is not entitled to know the identity of the signatories on an account containing public funds. Is that the position?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It does not seem that we are getting that, as I am sure the Commissioner will appreciate.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
If I could come back to something that I said earlier. I would like it to be on record that under no circumstances was this matter referred to GSOC to keep it from the public view or the view of this committee. It was referred to GSOC because that is the appropriate impartial and objective statutory body that is there to carry out examinations and investigations into any matters relating to serving or retired members of An Garda Síochána.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Clearly, there are a number of matters to be investigated. The Commissioner would have been in a position to say: "Look, there is definitely fraud there, we are giving in to GSOC to get it off our desk.." Would there not have been enough in the original report to refer the matter to GSOC?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
No, what we had in the original report, that is the material I received from the Deputy Commissioner which had been compiled by the head of legal affairs, was the suggestion that there was a whole myriad of very complex issues surrounding the management and accounting structures at Templemore. It was very clear, as I have said already, between 28 and 30 July, that there were considerable files relating to this matter. The focus was on making sure that sufficient information was gathered to be in a position to fully know precisely what had happened since 2008 when these matters had been brought to attention. That was the purpose of the work that was being conducted by the then working group.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The Commissioner can appreciate that from where I sit, the complexion is very much that An Garda Síochána decided to sit on this and contain it as much as possible. We are only here today because of the contributions of some of the Commissioner's senior colleagues on the civilian side and the work of this committee. These matters have been dragged out as opposed to being put out.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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There may have been no intention by the Commissioner, but she cannot speak for everyone in the organisation.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Just on that point, when was the last time the Commissioner spoke to Mr. Dunne?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Did the Commissioner speak to him in the last fortnight?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Was there any contact at all through third parties?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
No. May I just finish my point? I want to be very clear that at all times we acted in absolute good faith and with propriety. The minute these matters were brought to our attention our focus was on doing two things. One was regularising the matters at the Garda College, to make sure the regularity was there and also, in terms of propriety, to make sure that the appropriate actions were taken, that we got full sight of what had been done and that we made sure that processes were in place to correct things that were wrong, to fix them and put new mechanisms in place to ensure they could never happen again. Our focus was also to make sure that we got a complete picture of the historical context, of who had done what and what had actually been actioned. What was very clear was that over the years this was a very complex matter. The record will show that what this executive did from the time we became aware of it in 2015 all the way through to the present day is unravel what is a very, very complex structure, try to regularise it, get appropriate advices, appropriate support and put regulatory and propriety practices in place that ensure this can never happen again.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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How am I for time?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Grand, the Deputy has time for another couple of questions.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Commissioner aware of evidence to this committee that three people at a meeting, including an Assistant Commissioner, were instructed that under no circumstances was the McGee report to be given to internal audit?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The Commissioner would not have been party to any instruction to hide this report from internal audit-----
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Absolutely not, no. I want to be very clear. I have made it very clear, even since I took up the role of interim Commissioner, that internal audit is a key part of the internal structures that we have in place to give me assurances as Commissioner. What we are doing is very important. There is no doubt, because we have heard and seen it, that the structures we have in place need to be reviewed and robustly addressed. What we are doing on 27 June is taking the opportunity provided by a new audit committee to ask it to provide me as Commissioner and my team, as an executive, with advices as to how best that can be put in place, to repair some of the relationships and to make sure that there are proper and appropriate interactions between all of the various elements of the internal control mechanisms.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I have a few quick questions on some housekeeping matters to which the Chairman also referred. The Commissioner told us on 4 May that the first she knew about the scandalous financial irregularities at the Garda Síochána was on 27 July 2015. Is that still her position?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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That is still the Commissioner's position.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Things arise as a result of the Commissioner's answers but I might leave that to my colleagues because I want to get through my remaining questions and get them on record. The Commissioner also told us on 4 May that the meeting where she was first told of these issues lasted five minutes and took place over a cup of tea. Is that still her position?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. It was over a cup of tea, it might have been a longer cup of tea but how long was the meeting? What is her position on that?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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We are digressing a bit. I am just wondering how long the meeting lasted.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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We could go through a whole day-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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We both know what we are talking about, do we not?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am just going back to the Commissioner's evidence. I am sorry if I said "five minutes". The Commissioner certainly said "a cup of tea". Cups of tea go cold, so we can deduce that it was not a very lengthy meeting.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
I would like to explain because "a cup of tea" might seem that in some way I was denigrating the meeting. I certainly was not. As would be our normal practice at a meeting of that length, we finished our meeting at around 5.30 p.m. As would be the normal practice of the executive, we went for our normal debrief to a reception room where we would normally have tea at the end of the day.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The Commissioner and her colleagues had a cup of tea. For how long did that go on?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
It was an informal meeting. I honestly cannot remember how long the meeting went on. There is no issue regarding how long the meeting went on. I believe the focus is on what actually transpired at that meeting, and the outcome of that meeting. In terms of what transpired at that meeting, I was aware that Mr. Ruane, the head of legal affairs, had sent a report to Deputy Commissioner Ó Cualáin. The person who had contributed to the authoring of that report, Mr. Barrett, was present at the meeting in the college that day - the day-long meeting. Deputy Commissioner Ó Cualáin invited Mr. Barrett over to the reception room so that he could hear what we were going to discuss regarding the content of Mr. Ruane's report. Those discussions went on and arising from those discussions, the following morning, Deputy Commissioner Ó Cualáin sent me a report regularising what we had discussed at those meetings. Thereafter, immediate actions were taken, which has led to the implementation of the recommendations in the internal audit report, which we are now discussing. I am not in dispute around the length of the meeting. It was at the end of a very long day. The meeting was informal in nature. If it was a formal meeting-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Would the Commissioner accept that her response on the previous day led us at least to believe that this was a very short kind of reference to these matters at the end of a day's meeting?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The Commissioner did not. It was over a cup of tea. Perhaps it is our interpretation of a cup of tea being much longer than it is.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We might pull up the evidence given on 4 May, which involved questioning from me at the time. It was that it was a very short meeting. Go ahead, Deputy.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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While we are doing that, I will move on to the next couple of points. Colleagues should be aware that I am nearly finished these few points. I seek answers that will help in terms of asking further questions. When the Commissioner last appeared before the committee, she claimed legal privilege over advice given by Mr. Ruane, head of legal affairs, in his letter of 24 July. Is that still her position?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Why, in a constitutional democracy, would the Commissioner deny the representatives of the people here an understanding of what she was told about matters so serious?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It is a right the Commissioner could choose to waive in the interests of the matters at hand and the fact that they are of such public interest. Would she still maintain her right to assert legal privilege?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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That is the Commissioner's right, but in terms of the complexion of these matters and executing that right, does she believe it helps or deducts from the transparency with which these matters are-----
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
I am absolutely willing to assist the committee in the most open and transparent way. What I can say is that on all of the actions that were taken arising from those advices, I am very happy to assist the committee in any way that I can, as I did the last day in relation to that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Does the Deputy have a final question?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I will ask a final question and I can come in again later. In his evidence to the committee, which I alluded to earlier as did the Vice Chairman, the Comptroller and Auditor General said that to "immediately inform the relevant authorities", including his office, was the absolute correct course of action in the circumstances. Does the Commissioner accept that the Comptroller and Auditor General is correct in saying that?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
We have all learned a lot of lessons not just in our own organisation, but as we have looked at corporate governance procedures over the past while. As I said, we are getting advices from the audit committee, but my view today, as happened yesterday, is that everybody is informed immediately of matters. Absolutely, I accept that.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Commissioner believe that her role and responsibilities as Accounting Officer, and familiarity with that role and responsibilities, has been a work in progress?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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However, they have evolved to the extent that the Commissioner now knows she must tell the Comptroller and Auditor General, internal audit and so on immediately, whereas when it came to the McGee or other reports, it was a case of "Let us throw this around a little bit internally, get more information and when we have enough, we will let them know".
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am only talking about now.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Who was the Accounting Officer then?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Would the Commissioner think Mr. Murphy should have passed it on immediately?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Did the role of Accounting Officer change since he was Accounting Officer and the Commissioner became Accounting Officer?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Would it have been appropriate then and now to immediately inform the Comptroller and Auditor General if matters of this nature arise?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I, too, will keep my questions short and I hope the responses will be as succinct as possible to try to maximise the time available. To pick up on the Cabra account, it was the Cabra account.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Was it a personal account or a Garda account?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The suspicion that the money-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Was it always held in the name of An Garda Síochána?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That account or other related accounts were never in the name of somebody who is no longer a member of the force.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It was Mr. Kelly, who was head of internal audit, who notified the Commissioner so he would have indicated an approximate amount. In what range was that?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There is a range.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What timeline are we talking about?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It could be a range of different people.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In terms of the level of offence of which there is suspicion, is that on the serious end?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
At this point, I do not know. That is where the investigation will establish if any offence occurred. What Mr. Kelly has reported is that he has reasonable cause to suspect that there may be, so potentially there may be criminal or fraudulent activity around the account, but that will be a matter for the ombudsman commission to establish.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is that exclusively around the European money?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There are two ends to this account. There is the money controlled by an account in Cabra but in terms of how it got there, I raised a question here a couple of weeks ago about money coming from Templemore to a Dublin account that was controlled by a senior member of the force. I presume that is what we are talking about here. When I asked Mr. Kelly, he said that he was not happy to discuss it at that meeting a couple of weeks ago because it was the subject of an audit. Again, I asked Deputy Commissioner Ó Cualáin last week about inquiries other than the internal audit, and we have progressed to that in less than a week. The money would have had to come from Templemore.
There is a number of different accounts there. As such, somebody in Templemore was transferring money to an account. Was that straightforward in the normal course of events? Would money that was allocated for the purpose of the European funding not have been exclusive to Templemore? Why would that have gone to the Cabra account?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
I am not in a position to answer those questions. Obviously, they are facts that will have to be established in the investigation. To be fair to the committee, I want to be very clear. What the internal auditor has told us at the moment - if I can just quote from his audit report - is that he considers that there is sufficient suspicion that fraud may have been committed. That means that the matter needs to be investigated to establish-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Did he use the words "prima facie"?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Did he use them orally with the Commissioner?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
No, he did not. They are his exact wordings and that is why I think it is really important. We are talking about a potential suspicious activity on an account that may potentially lead investigators to establish that something has happened. We have to be very careful in terms of the context that we are putting on this. This is at the very early stages. It has not even - I do not even want to say that the ombudsman commission - it was only considering the matter. To be fair, the ombudsman commission got the matter yesterday. Of course, we remain there to assist the ombudsman commission in whatever way possible, including with the expertise available throughout the organisation.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I do not want to be unfair to the Commissioner, but I must refer to the timing of the referral yesterday given that this is a subject which, over the last two weeks, has come into play here. While I am very pleased that something is being inquired into by the appropriate body, I have to point out that the timing appears incredibly convenient given that the Commissioner is in front of us today and it puts out of bounds discussions on some of the matters that we were trying to explore.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Even if I was here without having referred this matter to the ombudsman commission yesterday, I would not be in a position to talk about these matters. They would still be under either internal audit investigation or external investigation. Under no circumstances was the matter referred for anything other than to take the appropriate and required action when something like this is brought to our attention.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I want to move on to another aspect of the work we have been doing. It refers back to the letter of 24 October where we read out the section relating to Mr. Barrett collecting all confidential material and posting it to himself. It suggests the Official Secrets Act. The Commissioner termed that an "interpersonal dispute". We have interrogated this over and back with different people over the last couple of weeks. It certainly looks very different to an interpersonal dispute to me. Mr. Barrett and a number of witnesses before us have agreed that much of this material would not have ended up in the public domain had he not forced that to happen. He was very diligent in how he pursued things. He then ends up being subject to this letter coming from Mr. Culhane and a suggestion that the Official Secrets Act should be applied. That for me is not an interpersonal dispute. Does the Commissioner regret saying that or does she still hold that it is an interpersonal dispute? She formed her opinion of that at the time but it is very important that this ended up in the public domain. We have the potential of a fraud here that has gone to GSOC. Even that would not have happened had this not come into public light or is unlikely to have happened. Does the Commissioner still believe it was an interpersonal dispute?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Absolutely. We may be talking about two separate things so I will clarify my position. This letter was received on 24 October 2015. It was quite evident from reading the content of the letter that there was, when I called it "an interpersonal dispute", a difference of opinion in the way that Mr. Barrett was handling things and Mr. Culhane's perception of that and vice versa. It involved a number of other parties. To my mind, what it highlighted was the interpersonal differences between two individuals operating in the same line of management and, most importantly, who had key roles to play in actually fixing the issues at hand. To come to Mr. Barrett, quite rightly he did what was proper and appropriate in bringing the matters to the attention of his then line manager, Mr. Dunne. That was back when he did do that. Then, Mr. Dunne was dealing with these matters and this letter comes into play. It was evident to me at that stage that here were two key people who actually had key roles to play in fixing these issues, which we had committed to doing. My focus was on making sure that those issues were dealt with and that any differences between these two individuals were resolved.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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When Mr. Dunne was here last week, he was asked about the timing of referring what he had found to the Comptroller and Auditor General. When we asked the Comptroller and Auditor General whether that was his understanding of how it should have happened or if it was the correct timing, he said it should have been referred immediately or very soon after it came to light. When one looks at the McGee report of 2008, it was given to Mr. Culhane who then had full knowledge. The genesis of the most recent report comes from that 2008 report. Mr. Culhane was aware of that. The internal auditor was not given the appropriate information. In fact, the Comptroller and Auditor General has done a very helpful report for us on where the rights and responsibilities are, including those of the Accounting Officer. It is document No. DE0075GCT, page 9 of 12. At paragraph 60, it states that the internal audit function must operate freely and objectively. It says that this requires the full support of management, a sufficient organisational status for the function, and execution by the internal audit unit of work in a manner which is and is perceived to be objective and professional. The material was deliberately withheld and the internal auditor told us that until Mr. Ó Cualáin took his position, he had been frustrated in getting material. Given that there is a potential fraud - and it is nothing more than a potential at this stage - withholding information is also potentially a disciplinary matter. Does the Commissioner agree?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
I cannot account for people who were in position before I became Accounting Officer. It is not appropriate to withhold information from the internal audit function. As I said earlier, the internal audit function is an integral part of the control mechanisms and structures we have in place within the organisation.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If that is the case and year zero is always the day a new Commissioner comes into office and someone else who is still in position pre-dated that, does it mean no action can be taken?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
No, it does not. What it means is that, if we are at year zero, what we have to do and what we are focused on doing as the executive at the moment, as I mentioned earlier, is ensuring that we ensure the mechanisms and structures we have in place are working to maximum effect. That is why we are getting the advices of the audit committee. How can we put these structures in place and, if I am frank, repair the relationships that are in existence, because that it what we have to do?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Personal relationships and interpersonal disputes can exist. However, there are checks and balances all the way, such as internal audit, the head of finance, an audit committee and a section 41 possibility. All of these fail-safe mechanisms and systems should militate against any interpersonal disputes. They did not work, however. It was only when someone outside the organisation disrupted the system that this started to unfold, including the internal auditor realising he had a right to far more information than he was being afforded. I find it difficult to accept that the Commissioner sees this as an internal interpersonal dispute in that context. The checks and balances will not work if these are seen as that. The ongoing management then becomes a concern in the context of the potential repetition of all of this.
Ms Nóirín O?Sullivan:
If I could just clarify, when I am talking about the internal interpersonal differences, it actually relates to the letter of 24 October. We absolutely recognise the need to have the internal governance structures in place. Back in 2015, Mr. Barrett did the right thing bringing this into place. He was there but there was also a new management team there. That should not be lost sight of. We were absolutely committed to making sure a light was shone on these matters. In our modernisation and renewal programme, one of the first things we committed to doing was strengthening governance arrangements within the organisation, including those internal structures - the mechanisms and checks and balances - and ensuring we were complying with best corporate governance standards for the public sector.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It appears the person who disrupted this was the one for whom there were consequences, while there were none for those who kept a lid on it.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The person who was disrupting all of this and forcing it out to be dealt with instead of being stuck in pigeonholes is the one who faces consequences because of the Official Secrets Act.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Why was it mentioned in this letter?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Did the Commissioner respond to that?
Ms Nóirín O?Sullivan:
Mr. Dunne responded to it. At no stage was there ever consideration given at any level in the organisation to investigate Mr. Barrett under the Official Secrets Act. For the information of the committee, the Official Secrets Act is used only in unique and exceptional cases. It is also rarely used.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Mr. Barrett was not investigated at all.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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He was not investigated in any way, shape or form.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Regarding the use of the credit union to move moneys backwards and forwards, funds were moved in from the restaurant account and back when there was a shortage. It seems to be an internal matter in light of the fact that the credit union involved is the Garda one, with potential for conflicts of interest. Does the Commissioner have any concerns about how the credit union was used?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Who is on the board of the Garda credit union?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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However, those involved are likely to have been drawn from the Garda Síochána.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Given that Central Bank has a regulatory oversight of credit unions, it might be quite useful to ask it to have a look at this particular case.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is a good suggestion. We will ask for that.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Other than reimbursing gardaí for expenses or buying items such as food and water for people in detention, is there any other reason moneys would be lodged into Garda members' personal accounts?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We had evidence given by Mr. Kelly that hundreds of cheques were issued and were lodged.
Ms Nóirín O?Sullivan:
I am not aware of that evidence. It is all electronic fund transfers now. In the past, if an individual member was to receive a payment for travel and subsistence, for example, it may well have been issued by cheque. Accordingly, the person who received it may have lodged it into his or her personal bank account.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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There was also evidence given that the excessive income derived from the activities in Templemore was not used for such purposes. We need this to be clarified.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is interesting because it seems incredible.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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When I asked Mr. Kelly several weeks ago about the money transferred to a Dublin account, he said he was not at liberty to talk about it because he was involved in auditing it. Mr. Kelly told the committee it could take up to two years to finalise all the work produced as a consequence of the interim report. What other audits are under way?
Ms Nóirín O?Sullivan:
From what I understand from my colleague, Mr. Kelly has a number of streams of work under way. He was focusing on prioritising the one he has just completed and delivered to us yesterday. He has a number of other streams, the priority of which he will decide now. Obviously, he will make the audit committee aware of them.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Will the priority be in cases where there is a suspicion of matters similar to those in respect of which he has completed audits?
Ms Nóirín O?Sullivan:
It is not necessarily suspicious. I think the focus is one of ensuring the audit process is carried out thoroughly and robustly. It is not necessarily where there is any suspicion. There will be a prioritisation. As the Deputy knows, the work plan is agreed in conjunction with the deputy commissioner and the audit committee.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses. The Commissioner has much experience in An Garda Síochána. How many years has she worked with the force?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I imagine the Commissioner has either led investigations and examinations or has been involved in investigations and examinations in her long career in An Garda Síochána. Is that fair to say?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Does she agree that getting co-operation from witnesses is a key part of any investigation?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Does she agree that getting information from people is also very important?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Does she also agree people should not be frustrated in their work?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I imagine Ms O'Sullivan would want to get full co-operation, would want full information and would not want to be in any way frustrated if she was carrying out an examination or investigation.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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One may not but one would expect people who work in An Garda Síochána to provide full co-operation-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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-----and full information. Is Ms O'Sullivan aware of the opening statement given by the head of internal audit, Mr. Niall Kelly, when he was here last in which he claimed he did not get full co-operation from people within An Garda Síochána and that he was frustrated in his work? He cited three time periods. Is Ms O'Sullivan aware of that?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Ms O'Sullivan is aware of it.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Two of the time periods he referenced are from July 2015 to March 2016 and September 2016 to March 2017. What he actually said was, "In regard to interference, non-co-operation and withholding information from internal audit, there are three periods of time that should be considered". Would Ms O'Sullivan not see it as serious that the head of internal audit feels his work was interfered with, that he did not get full co-operation, that information was withheld from him and that for two of the time periods where he suggests that was the case, Ms O'Sullivan was the Commissioner and the Accounting Officer?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is in his opening statement and he says he did not get full co-operation. I will go into the details of it but what I am saying is in overall terms, for a long number of years, it is quite obvious from his opening statement and testimony - Mr. Barrett also had very similar views - that he felt he did not get full co-operation, that his work was interfered with and that information was withheld from him. Does Ms O'Sullivan agree it is certainly his view?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will ask the secretariat to pull up the opening statement. We have the opening statement. Ms O'Sullivan might be more specific on when Mr. Kelly supposedly said this.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Ms O'Sullivan is referring to it so-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I want to be clear with the Commissioner and I want frank answers. It is quite obvious from the testimony of Mr. Kelly that he felt and stood over his claim at this hearing that his work was interfered with. He did not get full co-operation and information was withheld from him and others. It is his clear view. Does Ms O'Sullivan acknowledge it was his view?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
No, I am trying to read it here on screen. Of course, if that is what he says, it is his view. For the purpose of the record, it is important to say that during his testimony, when asked by the Chairman presiding on the day, my understanding from my colleague is the matter was clarified around the time period Mr. Kelly was-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We have five pages of an opening statement. He cites three time periods: from 2008 to 2011, from July 2015 to March 2016 and from September 2016 to March 2017. Two of those time periods where when Ms O'Sullivan was Commissioner. I will go through exactly what his concerns were. His statement was long, considered and very clear on where he felt his work was interfered with and where he did not get full co-operation from people within the organisation. Does Ms O'Sullivan accept that in the five pages of his opening statement that was his view when he was before the Committee of Public Accounts the last time?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Ms O'Sullivan and her officials and support team can find that. It is not my view of that meeting. I sat there for all the hours of testimony. I heard exactly what Mr. Kelly said and he stood over his claims. I want to turn to the time period. The last time period where he expressed concern was from September 2016 to March 2017. Ms O'Sullivan was the Commissioner at that time.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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From September 2016 to March 2017.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Ms O'Sullivan just had a discussion with an Teachta Murphy about a letter that was sent to Ms O'Sullivan, the deputy commissioner of operations, the deputy commissioner for change management, and the chief administration officer, dated 24 October 2015 from Mr. Culhane expressing concerns about Mr. Barrett
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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When Ms O'Sullivan received that letter, she obviously read it at that time.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What were her thoughts when she received that letter?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
My thoughts were it was a very serious matter, as I outlined to Deputy Murphy. It was very serious in so far as the two people who were at the centre of this were having issues with each other and differences of opinion. What was very important was they were two key people in making sure we put right the structures that were in place.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Culhane said in this letter that he found the record of the meeting and the statements made by Mr. Barrett to be very disturbing and alarming. This was his reference to issues such as that John Barrett was not satisfied with how the CAO dealt with issues, that issues were not brought to the attention of legal and were not brought to the audit committee in time. He stated this matter was not going to go away and that he would pursue the matter. He said the Commissioner, which is Ms O'Sullivan, should do a section 41 disclosure, that the Comptroller and Auditor General's office should be informed and so on. He is, to me, stating the obvious. What the head of the finance directorate is saying is that he found it very disturbing and alarming. When Mr O'Sullivan read it, what was her view?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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No.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, 24 October.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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This is the letter that was sent to the Commissioner, Ms O'Sullivan.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The letter from Mr. Culhane sent to Ms O'Sullivan, dated 24 October 2015. Ms O'Sullivan had a discussion with an Teachta Murphy.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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In the letter, Mr. Culhane is saying he found John Barrett's statements to be very disturbing and alarming. These were statements that the issues would not go away, that the Comptroller and Auditor General's office should be informed, internal audit should be more informed and so on. When Ms O'Sullivan read that, what were her thoughts?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
My thoughts were here were two key individuals who both had responsibilities in the same line with separate responsibilities for putting these matters right and here they were having a difference of opinion in terms of how another individual within one line report was being approached.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It was not just a difference of opinion. He went on to say John Barrett "stated in his usual sweeping style that he did not believe him and [just] stopped short of calling the [acting] Deputy Commissioner a liar". He goes on to talk about Mr. Barrett's irrational behaviour.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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He went on to say that "Mr. Barrett is attempting to undermine my professional reputation and my record of achievement in An Garda Síochána".
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It was his view. Ms O'Sullivan responded to the CAO.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
No, I responded then. I received that document by email, from my memory on a Saturday. I was away out of the country and I made contact with the acting Commissioner, who at the time was Dónall Ó Cualáin, and said it needed to be urgently addressed and it was addressed at the executive on the Tuesday.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Commissioner aware that Mr. Culhane also wrote to Mr. Niall Kelly, head of internal audit, on 13 October 2016? Has she seen a copy of that letter? We can get it up on the screen.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Was the Commissioner aware of that letter before she came in?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It was dealt with quite extensively. We will tease out what the process would be when letters such as this are sent. I ask that it be brought up on screen. It is a letter dated 13 October 2016 sent from Mr. Culhane to Mr. Niall Kelly - Mr. Culhane would have been furnished with a copy of a draft internal audit report - and he writes "In your report you have failed to mention the action that has been taken by College management to address various issues to such an extent that your report is misleading." Would the Commissioner have perceived the interim audit report as being misleading?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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He went on to state "You will note my commentary on page 15 in which you have made defamatory comments about my character and professional reputation." Therefore Mr. Culhane is accusing Mr. Kelly, the head of internal audit, of calling into question his character by making defamatory comments calling into question his professional reputation.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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He goes on to state, "Consequently I am reserving the right to issue legal proceedings against you for defamation unless you amend your report accordingly." Mr. Niall Kelly was doing a body of work and had a draft report. The head of the finance directorate sent him a letter advising that he was considering legal proceedings and that he found Mr. Kelly's report misleading. He then went on to state that in "omitting these facts the report is unprofessional, misleading and mischievous". Does the Commissioner see that?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What are the Commissioner's views on that letter sent to internal audit? Does she regard it as an appropriate letter for the head of the finance directorate to send to the head of internal audit?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking the Commissioner to comment on the specific letter. It is more than that. Following the McGee report in 2008 a former Commissioner recommended that the finance directorate should take a more hands-on approach. There were five specific recommendations none of which were implemented, by the way, which raises more questions for the finance directorate. Here we have a draft report in 2015, nine years on from when these issues first surfaced. The head of the finance directorate wrote to the head of internal audit, accused him of calling into question his character, stated the report was unprofessional, misleading and mischievous and went on to threaten him with legal action.
In his opening statement to us, Mr. Kelly said:
I find these two letters totally unacceptable because Mr. Culhane questions my motives and my professional integrity and competence. I can only view these letters as an attempt to undermine the report or to try to get me to change my audit opinion, findings and recommendations.
Would the Commissioner regard it as very serious that the head of the finance directorate could attempt to undermine or change the opinion of internal audit and its findings and recommendations?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
What I see here is Mr. Culhane's submission to Mr. Kelly. I should put this on the record for the committee. The committee is aware that subsequently Mr. Howard, the then chairperson of the audit committee, actually referred these letters to me and they are in a process at the moment which-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking the Commissioner whether she regards it as acceptable that the head of the finance directorate would threaten legal action against the head of internal audit and seek to influence his report. He asked him specifically to amend this report. He was very clear that if Mr. Kelly did not amend his draft report, he would take legal action against him.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is not a submission. It is a legal threat.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The Commissioner is not answering the question. I ask the Vice Chairman to direct the Commissioner to answer the question. Irrespective of whether it was a submission, it was a letter that the head of the finance directorate wrote to internal audit. In response to a previous Teachta, the Commissioner already said that she values and understands the importance of the work of internal audit and its independence. The head of the finance directorate, who has a very clear financial responsibility, wrote to the head of internal audit stating "I am reserving the right to issue legal proceedings against you for defamation unless you amend your report accordingly". Does the Commissioner find that acceptable?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I did not ask the Commissioner that. I asked if she finds that acceptable.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Commissioner, in fairness, it is a fairly detailed question.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is a straightforward question. Does the Commissioner find it acceptable for the letter to state, "Consequently I am reserving the right to issue legal proceedings against you for defamation unless you amend your report accordingly"?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking the Commissioner for her opinion because the buck stops with her. We have everybody in here and she is in here today. This was one of the time periods in which she had responsibility where Mr. Kelly feels he was frustrated in his work. I put this to the Commissioner, as the Accounting Officer. Is she satisfied that it was appropriate for the head of the finance directorate to put in writing what he put in writing?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The Commissioner is not prepared to say it was wrong that the head of the finance directorate threatened legal action.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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In fairness, the Commissioner has said that it was inappropriate.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Commissioner has said that it was not appropriate.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We have been presented with the minutes of the first steering group meeting. There is a reference to Mr. Culhane saying that he was shocked by what had just been said by Mr. Ken Ruane, who is head of legal, when Mr. Ruane said he would need to seek the advice of the Attorney General in respect of some issues. This is on page 3 of the letter. The secretariat has it. It states Mr. Culhane "said that he was shocked by what had just been said by [Ken Ruane]"-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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To which letter is the Deputy referring?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is the minutes of the meeting. I got a copy of it from the secretariat earlier.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What is the date of the document to which he is referring?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is dated 6 August 2015. It was a meeting that started at 11.15 a.m. and finished at 1.15 p.m.. I refer the Commissioner to page 3, which states "MC [which is Michael Culhane] said that he was shocked by what had just been said by [Ken Ruane] in that there was nothing complex or difficult about this issue and why would the issue have to be elevated to the Attorney Generals Office without all the relevant documentation".
The last paragraph states "He again expressed shock that [Ken Ruane] is considering that there are complex corporate law issues here". Again there seems to be a pattern here. Mr. Culhane is unhappy with even the Office of the Attorney General being informed.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Would the Commissioner be concerned that the head of the finance directorate would have been in open conflict with the head of legal? It is very clear from the minutes that they had very strong and differing opinions. He seemed to be very concerned that the matter could be referred to the Attorney General.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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When did the Commissioner take up her post?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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When did she first become aware of the irregularities at the training college?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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In July 2015, what action did she take?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
In July 2015, when I became aware of it, the chief administrative officer, the two deputy commissioners and myself discussed the matter and we decided the best course of action was to compile all of the information. The first thing I did was I reviewed files available in my office which quite clearly identified to me that in the period of 2008 there was a lot of interaction in response to what has now been termed as the McGee report.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What did the Commissioner do specifically when she was made aware in July 2015 of irregularities at the Garda College? What action did she take?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Mr. Dunne outlined to me the work that he had been doing. It was agreed, and the deputy commissioner on the back of Mr. Ruane's advices advised, that we needed to get more information. We formalised, if I can use that word, a working group to gather and compile all the necessary information.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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A working group?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, it was a high-level working group. It was a steering group.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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These are the minutes of that working group or steering group?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The Commissioner went through all that with Deputies previously. I am aware of that.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. There was, however, a steering group established and the minutes of that steering group meeting were up on the screen a moment ago. Is the Commissioner aware that the CAO chaired that meeting?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The note of the minutes of the meeting say, "The CAO noted that work has progressed on this matter for a number of years and the CAO pointed out that the group will consider whether external involvement is warranted but it is not required at this point in time." When I put those questions to Mr. Dunne when he was before the committee, he said that it involved and included the Comptroller and Auditor General, the Committee of Public Accounts and others. Here we have a situation where the Commissioner was informed about this in July 2015, she was obviously concerned enough to establish the steering group, the steering group met and one of its discussions was around whether external players should have been informed, and they were not informed. Would the Commissioner see this as satisfactory?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Did the Commissioner's office specifically inform the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General at any point?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Why not? Is the Commissioner not the Accounting Officer?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is directly through the Commissioner's office because I went around the houses on this issue. This is why the Commissioner was brought in to the committee last. We had the different heads of Departments before the committee and when they were asked about why they did not give information to the Comptroller and Auditor General's office, they said that it was to do with their superiors. We had middle and senior management of An Garda Síochána before the committee and I put the question to them as well. They said that the role of the Accounting Officer is very clear. The Accounting Officer has a responsibility to inform the Comptroller and Auditor General. I asked Mr. McCarthy specifically about who has responsibility for informing his office. Maybe Mr. McCarthy could clarify this again for me. Who has the ultimate responsibility for informing his office of irregularities when they become known within An Garda Síochána?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Which is?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That is the Commissioner, and she did not do it.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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No, it is not about the Commissioner's understanding. With respect to the Commissioner, we cannot have a situation where we go from heads of Departments, to senior gardaí, to the Commissioner before the committee today and the Commissioner is still saying it is someone else's role. We have heard it from the Comptroller and Auditor General that it is the Commissioner's job, the buck stops with her and she did not do it. I ask the Commissioner again the very straight question. Why did she not exercise her duty in informing the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General of the establishment of a steering group and of the irregularities of which she was made aware in July 2015?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
It was my understanding that with the working group, which was established and comprised the CAO and the head of internal audit - I beg your pardon, not the head of internal audit as I understand it now from the minutes of that time - the director of finance, that the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General would have been informed-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The office was not informed. It was the Commissioner's job to inform them. She wrote to the-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Let the Commissioner answer.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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No. The Commissioner or her office should have done it.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The Commissioner has the responsibility to make sure it is done. Whoever does it is irrelevant. The Commissioner is the Accounting Officer. What she did-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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For clarity-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am just getting to an important point.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Could I please clarify and finish answering the question? The fact is this group was established and it was to go through the process of informing all the relevant parties, keeping the Department and everyone else informed of that. I entrusted the job, and the sequence with which that was done, to the group as it was established. It is my understanding that it is accepted practice that the Accounting Officer cannot have oversight and responsibility for absolutely everything. It is my understanding that it is standard practice-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is a pretty fundamental thing that the Comptroller and Auditor General is informed.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Did the Commissioner not ask whether this had happened?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We have already heard from the Comptroller and Auditor General that ultimate responsibility rests with the Accounting Officer. He or she needs to make sure the work is done. I want to refer to a letter the Commissioner did send to Mr. McCarthy, which he has furnished to the committee.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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This is the Deputy's last question.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The letter is dated 31 July 2015. Was this before or after the Commissioner was made aware of irregularities at the Garda College?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. McCarthy clarify if it is a letter of representation or a letter of understanding?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What is a letter of representation?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will read it. The Commissioner says that
I confirm to the best of my knowledge and belief, and having made appropriate enquiries of my officials of An Garda Síochána, the following representations, which are given to you in connection with your audit of the Appropriation Account for Vote 20 ... for the year ended ... I am satisfied that the expenditure and receipts disclosed in the Appropriation Account for the Vote have been applied only to the extent and for the purposes indicated ... All the accounting records have been provided to you for the purpose of your audit and all the transactions undertaken by An Garda Síochána have been properly reflected and recorded ... I have disclosed to you all instances of loss, fraud or irregularity are known to have occurred or have been reported in the year.
Irregularities were reported to the Commissioner and here she was on 31 July 2015 sending a letter to the Comptroller and Auditor General saying that she had disclosed all instances of irregularities. The Commissioner did not disclose all instances of irregularities.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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No, sorry, that is not the case. I asked the Commissioner earlier and she was very clear with this committee that she first became aware of irregularities in the Garda College in July 2015. She was briefed on the issues, she had a meeting with Mr. Barrett, and, I take it, others also, but she was most certainly aware of the issues involved and that these issues were historical, going back over a long number of years. The Commissioner then furnished the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General with a very important letter where she says "I have disclosed to you all instances of loss, fraud or irregularity are known". That is simply not the case because she did know of irregularities.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
I will be very clear to the Deputy on what I knew. I knew that Mr. Barrett had raised certain matters with Mr. Ruane, our head of legal affairs. Mr. Ruane had reported those matters to the deputy commissioner for strategy and governance on 27 July. On 28 July, I got a report from the deputy commissioner, three days before the letter to the Comptroller and Auditor General was issued. I caused inquiries to be made in my office and I found there was-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That was 28 July. We met on 27 July.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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With respect, the Commissioner is counting down the clock.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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With respect, the Commissioner is.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I make that charge because I believe it to be the case. I want to put a question to Mr. McCarthy.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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This is the last question, Deputy.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Given that the Commissioner would have been at least aware of irregularities, is Mr. McCarthy satisfied the letter he received, dated 31 July 2015, where the Commissioner said she had disclosed all instances of loss fraud or irregularity is accurate?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The Comptroller and Auditor General did say in the past he would have expected to have been informed, for example, of issues such as the establishment of a steering group or when there are issues of potential irregularities.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What the Comptroller and Auditor General had said is that from 2008 onwards, his office should have been informed.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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When the Comptroller and Auditor General was before us on previously he said that he would have expected that his office would have been informed about the issues from 2008 on.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Commissioner has said that she was notified in July 2015. There was a letter from Mr. Ken Ruane on 24 July, there was a meeting on 27 July and we have just been told there was another letter or report on 28 July. What is the status of this letter?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Comptroller and Auditor General has explained why he cannot give an opinion on that, but he has stated previously that he felt that he should have been told in 2008, 2010, etc. The Commissioner was well aware, before this letter was sent, of issues relating to the Garda College. Mr. Barrett's report, which was then followed up by Mr. Ruane's legal letter, which we will not see, and then the report from Assistant Commissioner Ó Cuálain on 28 July all preceded the letter in question. Does the Comptroller and Auditor General feel that it would have been appropriate, given that there was a new Accounting Officer in place who has given evidence that she was made aware of these issues on 27 July, that she, as Accounting Officer, should have told his office about these issues?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am not asking about the precise details but rather about the fact that there was a process.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
Yes, certainly in principle. If the information that was in Mr. Barrett's dossier of early July had been put to the Commissioner, particularly any question mark over the appropriation account or that there might be implications for an appropriation account, that would be a matter that should have been brought to my attention.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The letter of 31 July was a missed opportunity to do that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We know what information-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am chairing the meeting.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Comptroller and Auditor General was not informed in 2008, 2010 or later. Ms O'Sullivan became Accounting Officer when she became Commissioner. I presume that when she was acting Commissioner she took on that role as well. The report from Mr. Barrett went in and there was a meeting on 27 July. The latter is disputed as being the first meeting. Assistant Commissioner Ó Cuálain's report was on 28 July, and the Comptroller and Auditor General's office was still not informed about the issues that had arisen. In the context of the letter on 31 July, the latter did not happen either.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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In all of the material that was disclosed to this committee, there was a letter from Mr. Barrett to the CAO. It was, in fact, a very extensive presentation. We are led to believe that it was the basis upon which the Comptroller and Auditor General was briefed. It says in the letter that there was potential that appropriation accounts had been compromised and signed off on by commissioners.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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How is it that we have a document from the head of human resources which talks about accounts being potentially compromised and then a letter sent by the Commissioner to Mr. McCarthy at the end of July in which she stated that there was no problem and that everything was okay. When she was briefed, she was aware of the irregularities. A steering group had been established. The head of human resources was saying that accounts were potentially compromised and yet the Commissioner gave a letter of assurance to the Comptroller and Auditor General's office that said that everything was okay.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes, this is the Deputy's final contribution.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
-----I do not know what letter to Mr. Barrett the Deputy is referring to. On 31 July, I was not in possession of complete information. I had a briefing that had been given to me and we had discussed what we needed to do next, which was to get more information and get the full facts of the matter so that we could compile what the information was.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That is not good enough, with respect. I have to insist on a decent-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am chairing the meeting. The Deputy should allow the Commissioner to conclude.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
At that time, I was aware that a number of very complex issues had been identified in respect of the college. I was not aware of precisely what had been done and what the precise state of all of those issues was. If I knew then what I know now, having completed all of that work, of course I would have contacted the Comptroller and Auditor General.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We have heard directly from the Comptroller and Auditor General that he feels he should have been notified long before this. He also told us that, given the information provided to her in July, he would have expected the Commissioner, who was then Accounting Officer and aware of the issues, to notify him in this letter. Ms O'Sullivan did not do so and that is a huge contradiction for us, as a committee. She is now informing us that if she was aware then of what she knows now, she would have put the information in the letter.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Yes, because this was a work in progress. Three days later, I set up a working group and I am acting with the confidence and assurance that they were a working group comprising of all of the relevant internal stakeholders that are going to give visibility to everybody. If I had known what the outcome of the work of that group was going to be, it would be a different matter.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We are going to have to return to the role of the Accounting Officer. If a document emerges in which allegations or declarations of issues that pertain to the documentation that was brought before the witness on 27 July are made, the role of the Accounting Officer of any organisation is very clear -there is a duty to inform the Comptroller and Auditor General.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
I want to clarify that because this is a very important issue. I am not aware of the letter from Mr. Barrett that is being spoken about here. What I am aware of is the briefing that I got from the deputy commissioner and the meeting that we had on the evening of 27 July. I was asked by Deputy Cullinane what I did. The outcome was to set up this group to gather information and inform me of what the issues were.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Mr. Barrett compiled a report. On the basis of that report, which was discussed internally among the management team, the Commissioner received a letter from Mr. Ruane in respect of which she is claiming privilege. That is the report that we are referring to from Mr. Barrett. Everything else fell out of that. As a consequence, is the witness saying that she was not privy to the high-level points in Mr. Barrett's report that gave rise to Mr. Ruane writing to her?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Can I add an important point to that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Very quickly.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is very important. Mr. Dunne was informed by Mr. Barrett that accounts were potentially compromised and then chaired a meeting of a steering group at which he said that he did not believe that external players should be informed. Is the Commissioner telling us today that Mr. Barrett gave an extensive report and briefing to the chief accounting officer, CAO, Mr. Dunne, talking about the potential of accounts being compromised and that Mr. Dunne did not inform the witness of that fact?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That is not what I asked. Was the witness informed by the CAO that there was potential that accounts were compromised?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Deputy should ask questions through the Chair.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The point the witness is making is that what was reported to her on 27 and 28 July did not justify a report to the Comptroller and Auditor General. That is the executive summary of what happened. What is alarming is that Mr. Barrett's report, which went through Mr. Dunne and which was the basis for Mr. Ruane letter, was not brought to the witness's attention.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Was the witness aware of the details of Mr. Barrett's report on 27 and 28 July?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I did not ask that question. Was the witness aware of the details of the report?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
In a very general way, yes, but not the specifics. I want to clarify again because I want to be fair to everybody here. Mr. Dunne informed me that what he was in possession of was incomplete information and that more information needed to be gathered in order to establish the facts of the situation.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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This is incredible stuff. I am sorry.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Commissioner and thank her for her contribution thus far. She is in a position of enormous responsibility and I am sure she can appreciate the difficulties that members of the public have with the breadth of issues that have arisen.
If people cannot have faith in the Garda Síochána to be above reproach, what faith do they have? The Commissioner is here to try to answer some of those questions for the committee. In terms of Ms O'Sullivan's opening statement, Deputy Cullinane mentioned her actions in July 2015. I note that she took over as Commissioner in March 2014, as she just said, on an interim basis until November 2014, when she was appointed on a permanent basis. I am interested in the time between November 2014 and July 2015 because in her earlier evidence she mentioned mechanisms and structures and putting those in place. The McGee report was completed in 2008. Ms O'Sullivan must therefore have been aware for a significant period of time of some of the issues within the wider Garda Síochána. What actions did she take when she became Commissioner?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Ms O'Sullivan did not know about it at all?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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What position did Ms O'Sullivan hold in 2008?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
From memory, at the beginning of 2008, I was assistant commissioner in charge of the western region. In October 2008 approximately, I was assigned to human resource management, HRM, and was there for six months until April 2009, at which stage I went to the crime and security section.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Who knew about the McGee report in 2008 if Ms O'Sullivan did not?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Was the Commissioner not aware of any issues in the Garda Síochána when she took up her current position?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Did she know anything of any wider issues of impropriety rather than specifically in regard to the Garda College?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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During that period she was interim Commissioner. However, after November 2014, she was the Accounting Officer.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Ms O'Sullivan said that it is not her place to account for previous officers, but was she aware of any malpractice in the Garda Síochána at that time?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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What ongoing issues?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Will Ms O'Sullivan elaborate on those issues and what steps she took to address them?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
There were many issues, particularly relating to public confidence in the Garda Síochána arising from several of the controversies and crises that had arisen from, for example, issues in regard to fixed charge penalty notices, whistleblowers and the organisation having gone through many very serious issues and challenges. We were dealing with several other issues such as the bugging of GSOC. There were a myriad of issues at the time.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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What measures did Ms O'Sullivan put in place to address those deficits?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
The first thing I did as interim Commissioner in April 2014, having taken up the position on 25 March 2014 approximately, was to set about restoring confidence in the Garda Síochána, which at that time had dropped to an all-time low of 67%. Part of our focus was three-pronged: to ensure we restored public confidence and confidence of the institutions of the State in the Garda Síochána, and to restore the morale and confidence of our members. That was a mammoth task to then undertake. As we worked through that, the first thing I wanted to do was to ensure we could create a culture where people could speak up as this was a really controversial issue.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Is Ms O'Sullivan satisfied with the whistleblower procedures that are currently in place? Does she think they help whistleblowers?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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What else needs to be done?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
I am on the record of the Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality as saying that to provide absolute objectivity and enable people to have the confidence to come forward, not just from within the Garda Síochána but right across the sector, it is important there is an independent office to which people can go to have a safe place to raise these issues. However, that does not abdicate our responsibility. We have put in place internal structures such as appointing two protected disclosures managers and ensuring we have structures in place to investigate all matters. I am on record as having said since April 2014 that dissent is not disloyalty. That is relevant in relation to encouraging people to speak up, to have the confidence to come forward and to know that the issues they raise may not always be completely right but will be listened to, taken seriously and investigated, as was the case in this-----
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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In the context of what Ms O'Sullivan said earlier about repairing relationships, does she think there is still a cultural difference between uniformed gardaí and civilians? From the evidence given to this committee in recent weeks, it seems there is a disconnect between uniformed gardaí and civilians. What steps is the Commissioner taking to address that?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
To refer back to 2014 once more, there had been a moratorium on recruitment and one of the key focuses of this management team is to ensure we have absolute integration. For the first time ever, we identified opportunities to increase the civilian representation on the senior management team. Mr. Barrett's appointment provides the first evidence of that. A decision was taken in 2007 that the HR position should be held by a civilian. That was never acted upon, but when I took up as Commissioner, I ensured that was done and that a civilian, Mr. Barrett, was appointed to the position, which had been held previously by an assistant commissioner. Since then, new civilian members have been appointed to the team. There has been a huge cultural shift in terms of speaking up and the integration of gardaí and civilian employees. What has manifested here at the committee, in the public domain and in commentary is not helpful and is not conducive to that because we are trying to develop a cohesive, effective team-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The committee also has to do its job.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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It is accountable to the Government.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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All members agree that the process does not help but the committee has to do its job and get to the bottom of what happened here.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Ms O'Sullivan mentioned in her opening statement that the recommendations of the interim audit report will be implemented and that she is happy to provide periodic updates to the Comptroller and Auditor General. That indicates that it will take a very lengthy period of time. Will Ms O'Sullivan tell us how long it will take? We want to expedite it, as I am sure she appreciates.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Ms O'Sullivan may consult Mr. Nugent.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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June 2017?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Yes, June 2017. Given the complexity in terms of certain advice received and the unstructuring, so to speak, of some of the entities that are there, he now indicates that the recommendations will certainly be closed out by the end of the year but the June deadline will not be met.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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It will be December 2017?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I recommend that that deadline be met because this needs to be addressed. One of the most important things the public wants to ensure is that this type of thing does not happen again. In Ms O'Sullivan's opening statement she mentioned that she had a verbal briefing with Mr. Niall Kelly and requested a written report from him. Does Ms O'Sullivan have a contemporaneous note of that verbal briefing? It is important for the committee to know what the thought processes were and what conversation she had with him.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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It would be helpful if that could be provided to the committee.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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That is fine. When Ms O'Sullivan talked about the appropriate action being taken by the Garda executive, what action does she envisage?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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It is the final paragraph.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
As in this case, is will be whatever the appropriate action is. As Mr. Kelly's audit is completed, if there are issues identified which require independent, objective and impartial investigation, we will refer them to the appropriate authority. In the case I dealt with yesterday, that was the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. Whatever action needs to be taken, be it structural or process, will be taken.
I mentioned earlier that one of the things we have identified, out of everything that has happened since 2015, is the need to give ourselves, this committee and the public assurances that this can never happen again. That is why we are using the opportunity of the first meeting, that is, the induction of the new audit committee on the 27th to look for advice on how we can make sure that all of our internal structural mechanisms, our internal financial control framework, our audit committee, our internal audit and our risk management process, which the deputy commissioner was responsible for revising recently, are best working together. In the interim, we restructured all of those to bring them together in a more meaningful way to give me, as Accounting Officer, assurances, to give this committee assurances, to give the Comptroller and Auditor General assurances and to give our audit committee assurances that this cannot happen again.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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To go back to the Accounting Officer's reporting obligations, there is no formal requirement set out under the PFP for an Accounting Officer to inform the Comptroller and Auditor General of significant matters of concern. There is, however, an expectation and established practice that significant matters be communicated to the auditors at the earliest opportunity. Earlier, Ms O'Sullivan said there were very clear and significant issues, in her view, and that is why she set up a working group. In hindsight, does she think the Tánaiste and the Department of Justice and Equality should have been made aware of that at the time?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
There are many ways of informing the Tánaiste and the Department of Justice and Equality. In this instance, I instructed Mr. Dunne to make sure that the Department of Justice and Equality was fully informed and sighted on all of the issues because it was evident to me, from my perusal of the files available in my office, that the Department had involvement as far back as 2008 and beyond.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Has Ms O'Sullivan revised her view in respect of her obligations?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Okay. Where are we regarding the report on breath tests?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Okay. I have one or two more questions. I refer to Templemore. Does Ms O'Sullivan believe it is appropriate for serving gardaí to act as directors of companies with an interest in lands? Did the arrangements in Templemore breach section 29(3) in her view?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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What oversight is there to ensure serving gardaí do not breach that section?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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My final question relates to Mr. Barrett. Ms O'Sullivan mentioned that he was new and would not have understood sending documents off-site. If that is going to be a problem, how is she addressing it for people who are new so that they know what the processes are?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Is that new training?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Yes. We have induction training which makes people aware of the legislation and the architecture that governs the oversight and accountability mechanisms that are in place, particularly around their data protection obligations concerning protecting the sensitive personal data of individuals they come into contact with.
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms O'Sullivan.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Has Deputy Madigan concluded?
Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Yes.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will take a break and resume at 11.55 a.m.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The committee is in public session. I call Deputy Catherine Connolly.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an gCoimisinéir go dtí an seomra arís. Mar is eol di, tá dualgas orainn ceisteanna a chur agus tá dualgas ar na finnéithe na ceisteanna a fhreagairt. Sa chomhthéacs sin, tá súil agam go mbeimid ag obair as lámh a chéile. The Standards in Public Office, SIPO, was mentioned before the sos. The total number of members above the level where SIPO declarations are required is 272. Of those 272, 250 have indicated compliance-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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-----and 22 have not indicated compliance.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What is the delay?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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On a point of information, the information requested by the committee was in regard to compliance from 4 May but that is not what has been received. The Commissioner might send that information so that we can then distinguish how many have met their obligations since.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes. That is what was requested originally.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Perhaps the Commissioner will clarify why 22 members have not complied. What is the reason for the delay?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Okay. What is the longest period of non-compliance beyond the time for compliance?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Commissioner does not know.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
I am sorry, Deputy. I am conferring with my colleague, Mr. Nugent, who is compiling this process. Regarding the 22 people, we do not know. They were asked to confirm whether they were in compliance. The returns are from all of the available people. Obviously, Mr. Nugent is engaged in a process of following up with the 22. Perhaps some of them are out of the country.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There might be reasons but the Commissioner does not know the period beyond the time for compliance. Of the 22 people, do any of them relate to the company we have been referring to in recent weeks?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank Mr. Nugent.
I have raised a matter concerning the Commissioner's statement previously. When she reacted to the situation publicly and before this committee, she referred to it as a legacy issue. Is that not right? Let me put the question first. She made the point that it was in the past. Does she now accept that it is not in the past and that there are ongoing issues arising from Templemore?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When the Commissioner referred to legacy issues, she meant issues arising from those structures. Was she referring to the lack of candour and co-operation within certain segments of the Garda?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Yes. From the evidence that we have heard and what we have uncovered in the audit, there are certainly issues that appear to have been cultural in nature, possibly at a particular time, as well as perceptions of different matters held by various people. Indeed, there were witnesses before the committee-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I will revert to the lack of candour. It is a matter that Mr. Howard raised more than once. The Commissioner has explained "legacy issues" as relating to structures and the ongoing consequences. Has the period during which there was a lack of candour and co-operation in the Garda finished or is it still ongoing?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
I believe it is finished. I am not going to say that it is completely over. A big job of cultural and structural reform is under way.
Deputy Cullinane asked a question earlier but I could not find the information at the time. We have found it since. The Chair asked us to find it and get our officials to point to it. Somebody has found it for us. When Mr. Kelly was asked by the Chairman to clarify whether it was then or now, Mr. Kelly said - I might be able to find the quote in a moment with the assistance of my colleague, Mr. Nugent - that things had changed. I do not want to misquote him, but he said that the doors "are [now] being flung open". In respect of myself and the deputy commissioner,-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I agree that that is what Mr. Kelly said. It is written down. However, that only came about recently. Is that not right? In response to a question that I put, Mr. Barrett is on record as saying that this matter would not have seen the light of day only for himself.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Does the Commissioner agree with him?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Does the Commissioner agree with what he said? It was not a boast, merely a statement of fact. Without him persisting, raising this matter and keeping his - I do not like the word "dossier" - notes, this situation would not have reached this level of openness.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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My question was on whether the Commissioner agreed with what he said, namely,-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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-----that without him, it would not have seen the light of day.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
I absolutely agree that Mr. Barrett did the right thing in bringing this forward. If I could follow up on that, as soon as it was brought to the attention of the executive, the appropriate actions were taken to deal with the matter and to ensure that there was full transparency. An important element that I would like to get on the record is that one of our key focuses was to ensure that we fixed what had been going on for several decades. We ensured that we unravelled the complexities. Mr. Nugent has informed me that we will have all of the recommendations of Mr. Kelly's audit implemented by the end of the year.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I hear that. In fairness, the Commissioner has said that many times. I will ask her again. If she cannot answer now, I will revert to the matter when I go through Mr. Howard's statement about a lack of candour. Does the Commissioner accept what Mr. Barrett said, namely, that without him, this would not have happened?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Okay.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is where-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Commissioner is choosing to answer the question in that way.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Another theme that has, I believe, come from the Commissioner and Garda spokespersons is that was then and it would not be appropriate by present standards. Is that not right? That comment has been made. By modern governance standards-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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This is my third time putting to various witnesses that it was not appropriate by the standards of the time either. We will go from the 2008 report. Is that not right?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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In fact, a separate accountancy system was operating. It was outside public scrutiny.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Let us leave the accounts alone because they are being tracked down. They have been reduced to four from 50. I do not need to go into the details, as I will accept what the auditor will tell us. That process is under way. I am more interested in the 2008 report. Has the Commissioner read it yet?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It reads:
The amount of organisations, sub-committees and bank accounts being operated from the Garda College creates an environment whereby it is difficult to implement proper internal controls. ... The shadow audit reveals that these organisations and entities have been operating outside governmental accounting regulations ...
The general comment in the report is that this was totally wrong at that point in time in 2008. Is that not right?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is accepted that this was not acted upon.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It was not acted on. Does the Commissioner accept that?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Following the Garda's inquiries to date, does the Commissioner know why it was not acted on?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Let me. I have read it, as have all of the Deputies present. The report was published in 2008. Unfortunately, Mr. McGee has his name on it. It was commissioned by the financial director above him. It went to Mr. Fachtna Murphy, who was the then Commissioner, and returned with a recommendation from him that it be implemented. A comment is made somewhere to the effect that it would be a breach of trust if the report was not implemented. On top of that, there was a recommendation that an internal audit be conducted. That did not happen. If the Commissioner still does not have an idea from the Garda's inquiries to date as to why that did not happen, that is okay, but she should make that clear to me. She can confer with her colleagues.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
We do not know. As the Deputy knows, Mr. Kelly's audit is continuing. As he uncovers further documentation and evidence, it may become more apparent. At this point in time, it is not clear to us from what we have examined as to why the recommendations were not acted upon or who chose not to-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is the Garda conducting an inquiry into that?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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His audit relates to the financial aspects. Is that not right?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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As information is uncovered. In respect of previous Commissioners, though, I am asking Ms O'Sullivan as the current Commissioner why action was not taken when such a blunt analysis of the situation in 2008 clearly told the Garda that this was not right. We are not talking about 2016 or 2017.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Does Ms O'Sullivan think it was wrong that the analysis was not followed up on?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Good.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is good. It was wrong, it was not followed up on, but the Commissioner has no idea why it was not.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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In terms of trust, when did the Commissioner become aware of the following? She has said that she became aware, in July, of the difficulties in the Garda College.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Am I wrong in thinking that somewhere, in all of this documentation here, the legal adviser approached the Commissioner in June?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When was that?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am incorrect. The Commissioner can check that fact. She has clearly answered July in response to repeated questions. If I say the legal adviser told her in June or put her on notice, am I wrong?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes, no document. Did the legal adviser talk to the Commissioner in June alerting her of the situation in the Garda College?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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My question is not did she get a document. My question is as follows. Did the legal adviser alert her verbally or in any way, in June, to the situation in the Garda College?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Was that during the famous meeting of 27 July?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I think the Commissioner has told the committee that it was a very short meeting.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Mr. Barrett said, no, it was a very long meeting. On top of a very long day, it was two hours of a meeting.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We are not going back there, Commissioner, but we will stay with this for a minute. Mr. Barrett has said that the meeting lasted for approximately two hours. Does the Commissioner accept that?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I understand. Mr. Barrett took the trouble to write an account after the event. His notes are not contemporaneous. He noted the meeting and stated that it lasted at least two hours.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is correct.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is correct.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I understand. God help judges who must listen to different things. Does the Commissioner accept what Mr. Barrett has said in terms of the two hours?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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No, that is why so he can-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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-----and he took a note.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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All right.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I understood from the Commissioner that it was a very quick meeting and he was made aware of. He sets out that it was made known to her in detail, and to all of those present, based on a very detailed report in which he highlights 21 concerns. Was the Commissioner aware of all of that on that day?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Commissioner has read Mr. Barrett's note. He gave a detailed note on all of the issues that were raised. Does she accept that as a fairly reliable account of what happened during the two hour meeting?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I think the Commissioner should do so. It is disappointing that she has not done so because he mentioned quite a number of things that were brought to the attention of those who attended the meeting. He mentioned AC Nolan's report in 2010 and the McGee report, and highlighted many things in the note, and that the meeting went on for well over two hours. He mentioned, in particular in relation to McGee, the missing records. He stated that he was told to be careful in making allegations like that, and mentioned that aspect twice.
Let me explain what I am doing. I do not expect the Commissioner to know every bit of the note but I did expect that she would have read it. Mr. Barrett stated that it was a very serious meeting where he raised all of these issues. Alarm bells should have rung. The 2008 and 2010 reports were not acted on and he brought this matter to her attention.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I appreciate that and the Commissioner has given her recollection. Did alarm bells go off in her head when she heard all of this? It is not a legacy issue. It is a serious problem and two major reports have not been acted on.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes. He was told to be careful.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
-----and that the books were not available.
The context in which Mr. Barrett used the words "be careful", and I do not know if those were his exact words, if Mr. Barrett was making assertions and had at that stage established that there was a case, that there was some reasonable suspicion, that a particular individual had, in some way, taken or removed €85,000 or £85,000-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
-----and there was no trace of it, then the matter needed to be dealt with in a separate way, that the fraud squad needed to be involved immediately. It subsequently transpired that the £85,000 was actually found lodged into an account of the OPW in the course of Mr. Kelly's audit, and that the money had been transferred from pounds into euros.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is interesting that the Commissioner has a detailed recollection of that but no note.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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All right.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Based on the minute that was sent to me by the deputy commissioner, it was immediately actioned. That is why the gravity and the seriousness of the issues were actioned. Since that moment, we have continued to action all of the issues that have been raised and to deal with them.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We have dealt with that. There is an ongoing report. I will list the questions I want answered in the short time allotted to me.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Deputy can ask the last of her questions.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Vice Chairman has interrupted my train of thought. Trust is at the heart of all of this. The Garda College trains all the young gardaí. I understand that the working group was set up by the CAO, chief administrative officer, not by the Commissioner, and it was set up prior. Is that correct?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Had Mr. Dunne already set up a working group prior to that meeting?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Did the Commissioner change that?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
-----and I do not want to confuse the committee or, indeed, myself. Regarding Mr. Dunne's working group, Mr. Barrett had raised certain issues in relation to the Garda College with Mr. Dunne, as I understand. Mr. Dunne then had convened a working group comprising the line management in the Garda College.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am not going into all of that because we know that.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes. I want to know what the Commissioner changed.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
-----Mr. Dunne, at that meeting, gave us an outline of the work that he had been conducting since these matters were brought to his attention, trying to gather together all of the relevant information. What was agreed that day was that the work would continue. The following day the deputy commissioner sent me a minute, which would have been a note of what we agreed at the meeting, saying what work Mr. Dunne's working group would now comprise.
I emphasised to Mr. Dunne and to the deputy that all of the relevant parties would be involved in it.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I asked the Commissioner what changes she made. She has acknowledged that the working group was set up prior to her taking any decision. What changes, if any, did she make to that working group following the meeting on 27 July?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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However, the Commissioner did not set up a working group. She elaborated on the existing working group. The working group was set up; "yes" is the answer to that. The Commissioner did not set up a working group; it was already set up.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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No. There was one working group at this point.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There was group 1 and group 2.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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No. At this point there was no group set up by the Commissioner; it was set up prior to her involvement.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is what you said.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
No. With respect, Mr. Dunne had a group which was looking at internal procedures in the Garda College arising from issues that Mr. Barrett had raised with him about matters arising in the Garda College. When we got the report from the deputy commissioner and we met on the 27th, it was clear that there was much more information available than just in the mere silo of the Garda College. There was information available-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Commissioner-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Commissioner may and I will not interrupt her to let her finish. She has just said that she made no difference to the-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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You did actually.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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You said, "No, I didn't change the working group; I just talked about making sure all the stake-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Just let me finish my thing and I will not interrupt you. You clearly told us you made no changes except to ensure all the stakeholders were on that working group.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Okay.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
We should read Mr. Dunne's clarification to the committee into the record. I ask the Deputy to let me finish out on this because I think it is an important clarification. I want to be very clear. Mr. Dunne, as was his responsibility in that line, was dealing with issues that had been brought to his attention within his line management network.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am going to ask the Commissioner not to repeat that. She has said that; it is on the record.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Commissioner may well think it is important, but the Vice Chairman is watching the clock for me and I need to get to another question. The Commissioner has clearly said that. I am not taking her short. She has clearly outlined it and it is on the record.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Should Mr. Nugent subsequently, through the Commissioner, want to read it into the record, that is fine. Let me move on from that working group.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Do not give me a history.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Okay.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Did the two working groups work in parallel with each other?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There was a working group, as a result of the 27th. There was a working group set up without the Commissioner. From 27 July the working group was expanded. They are not two parallel working groups. I will let the Commissioner correct that in a minute and she can perhaps take the Vice Chairman's time.
I will leave that for a moment and move on to candour, change and trust. Irrespective of the title on the working group, it is to work through the problems and then the steering group is to implement the recommendations of the interim audit. Is that not correct?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Please, just one second. If I am wrong about the implementation, who was monitoring the implementation of the interim report?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I understand all that. There was a working group and a separate group monitoring the implementation off the internal audit.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am not in any way mixed up about this. I accept the Commissioner's answer at this point. She is stopping me going on to the next question, which is about trust in whatever system was set up, whatever group was set up and candour. Let me go to Michael Howard, the head of the internal audit, who does not seem to know anything even though he is the head of the internal audit because he has not been told anything. Leading in to what I am going to do here now, it has already-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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For clarification, he is not head of internal audit; he is head of-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Sorry, the audit committee. I thank the Vice Chairman for the correction.
Let me go back to what the Commissioner said was a personality clash or personality issues between Mr. Barrett and Mr. Culhane. Does she still hold that it was a personality clash?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Where does the Commissioner see any issues arising on the side of Mr. Barrett?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Commissioner has said there were very serious interpersonal issues between two people.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes. The only evidence I see of that is Mr. Culhane writing letters. Where is the evidence that there were problems with Mr. Barrett?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Just please-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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This is not what the Commissioner is dealing with. She is dealing with a very senior person from the outside who has been brought in and given a very high title. There is Mr. Culhane who is the chief financial officer. The only correspondence I see where complaints are made is Mr. Culhane's. This is a very detailed letter making very serious allegations in October 2015. The Commissioner's response today was Mr. Ó Cualáin is to follow up on that.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Mr. Dunne and subsequently Mr. Ó Cualáin, I understand.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I come back to the Commissioner regarding Mr. Dunne. This was addressed to her on 24 October 2015. Without context, it is a very serious letter. In context, given all that went before and no action - a 2006 report, a 2008 report and a 2010 report-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Last question.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am just finishing on this. I want to put these last few things on candour. Some of my colleagues have already referred to 24 October. Is the commissioner seriously putting all these issues, including considering applying the Official Secrets Act, down to a personality clash or interpersonal difficulties? Even now, is she seriously putting that letter down to fault on both sides, as it were, or difficulties on both sides?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Commissioner has said that.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Commissioner has said that. I am asking her to look back at this letter with hindsight. It is an extraordinary, is it not? The Commissioner would accept it is an extraordinary letter. This is a man who is sitting on a committee with Mr. Barrett.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
It is extraordinary. As I said this morning - and I would like to repeat it - my concern was these are two key individuals in our internal control mechanisms who needed to be fixing these problems. My focus was on making sure we were bringing the team together effectively to fix the problem.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Commissioner has said that a few times. I think she absolutely misread the situation either deliberately - which is probably an unfair allegation - or unintentionally in relation to what was being done here.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I take back "deliberately".
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I take back "deliberately".
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Absolutely.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I will let her.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Allow the Commissioner to clarify.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Okay.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I presume that this structure does not apply to the internal auditor. The internal auditor has to have a relationship with the Accounting Officer.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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So it is completely separate even though he is only at the grade of assistant principal.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Mr. Dunne dealt with the matter in relation to meeting Mr. Barrett and Mr. Culhane. He has a note, which the Commissioner has read, of those two meetings. Did he resolve anything?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I did not ask the Commissioner's opinion, I asked her if he resolved anything.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Commissioner should listen to me.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The time is up. Deputy Connolly should finish her question.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I will finish on this point. I wish to put a question on Mr. Howard. If I accept that the Commissioner was landed with all of this, and these are historical issues that she is struggling to deal with, I have difficulty with that now when I look at all of this correspondence and when I see this letter going before her and she left it to Cyril Dunne to deal with that. It is not dealt with in my opinion. I have asked the Commissioner if she thought it was dealt with and she talked about difficulties. I ask the Commissioner again whether she thinks it was dealt with - yes or no.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Mr. Dunne, as the line manager, reported back to the executive that he had met with both of the individuals and that he had dealt with the matter to a satisfactory resolution. Mr. Culhane was asked, as is the appropriate process, whether he wished to take the matter further and he said "No".
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Did it not ring alarm bells in the Commissioner's head that something was seriously wrong, that this was a committee which was supposed to be looking at issues?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Finally, is it correct that Mr. Howard, as head of the internal audit committee has written to the Commissioner more than once?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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He clarified the lack of candour and wrote about not shooting the messenger. Is that not correct?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Did that alert the Commissioner? Was that in 2016?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Was there one in 2016?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is very important to check the records because it concerns the head of the audit committee in 2016 and 2017. Mr. Howard wrote to the Commissioner on 25 October. Let me put this in perspective and I will conclude on this issue. The letter was addressed to the Commissioner and concerned the audit of the Garda. Does the Commissioner wish to see it on the screen or does she have a copy?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is PAC32-R-575. I am sorry as I am wasting time. The letter is here if the Commissioner wants to look at it. Mr. Howard raised serious concerns about the background. He stated: "Again during 2015, the matter was raised internally within management. On this occasion, the existence of a potential problem in the Garda College was at least mentioned to the Audit Committee" and he gave the background. He wrote:
The internal audit has not, to date, uncovered evidence of actual fraud. But, while welcome in itself, this provides limited grounds for reassurance. Over a lengthy period, some of the most important arrangements for financial management at the College were incompatible with public financial procedures. Some basic controls were simply absent.
He went on to outline them. That was in October 2016, after all the working groups and steering groups had been set up. He went on to note in emails that there was a lack of candour, which he would be raising personally with the Commissioner and Deputy Commissioner Ó Cualáin. He said he intended to reiterate the points in the letter to the Commissioner. He emphasised the apparent lack of candour in disclosing the matter. He wrote to the Commissioner personally. Does the Commissioner have the correspondence for 2017?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I have a letter that is undated. Mr. Howard said is standing full-square behind Niall Kelly, so it must be after the audit. There is no date on the letter but it is addressed to the Commissioner, Nóirín O'Sullivan. He said: "Dear Commissioner, I regret that I am obliged to write to you again concerning a matter..." and he goes on in relation to Mr. Culhane's letters. I think that letter is from 2017.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes. Mr. Howard wrote a detailed letter again. He said: "I regret that I am obliged to write to you again" and he went on to express his concerns. I am finished, Vice Chairman. There is a letter and there are emails dating to late 2016 and early 2017 and after the audit. The head of the audit committee expressed serious concerns about lack of candour. As Commissioner, does Ms O'Sullivan stand over that?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
It is very concerning. The October letter related to, as we explained earlier, when the draft interim audit report was produced by Mr. Kelly in September 2016; the legal advices that Mr. Kelly got from Mr. Ruane were that all of the individuals named in the audit report had to be entitled to due process.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Please.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Please.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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No, I am sorry. Deputy Connolly has had her time.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Please. Just let me conclude. I only want my question answered. The Commissioner is talking down my clock.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Deputy's clock was run down long ago.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I wish to deal with the lack of candour right up to 2017. This is my final question. I am simply asking the Commissioner what she thinks about that. What decisions did she take? What actions did she take in relation to the expressed lack of candour?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
If I can explain, in September 2016, on production of Mr. Kelly's interim audit report legal advices were received by Mr. Kelly from Mr. Ruane that all of the individuals had to be given due process to make submissions. Those submissions, as I understand it, were copied or the audit committee made aware of them. Mr. Howard quite rightly raised the issue in relation to October and subsequently we had a number of meetings with Mr. Howard to explain the process that had to be undertaken, the legal advices that were there. We assured him that I and the executive took this matter extremely seriously and that we were fully supporting Mr. Kelly in completing his audit process, respecting the fact that the due process and the submissions had to be made by the individuals that were making them.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The running order-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That was not an answer to my question on the lack of candour but I will leave it and come back to it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Okay. The running order now is Deputy Farrell, who is not here, me, Deputy Cassells, Deputy McDonald, Deputy Burke and following on that we have everyone indicating again. That is just the running order based on who was here at the time.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Commissioner pointed out earlier that Mr. Dunne made a clarification and sent us an email. We are aware of that. It is interesting that it was a clarification that he was not even asked for but he still sent it in. Has there been any communication from anyone in An Garda Síochána over the past three months with Mr. Dunne?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It must be done through the Commissioner. We must stick to the rules.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
I am going to ask Mr. Nugent if I am in any way misrepresenting what he has just said to me, because I find this process a little bit delaying for the purpose of assisting the committee. Mr. Nugent has informed me just now that his office spoke to Mr. Dunne with a view to getting him the information and getting information that was required for the committee.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I suggest that what we will do is write to the Commissioner and ask when the meetings took place and what was discussed.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will write to ask for clarification because it does seem strange that a clarification was sent in by Mr. Dunne even though it was not requested, which relates to a very important piece of evidence that he gave.
I have asked this question numerous times in the committee and I will ask the Commissioner the same thing. Does she have confidence in everybody who is at senior management level within the Garda Síochána, given the level of contradictions, the evidence that has been given and, dare I say it, the almost hostility some witnesses who were working together have for one another?
Does Ms O'Sullivan have full confidence in all of their abilities and capacity to work together?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
My job is to make the most effective and cohesive use of the team I have. Our focus as the executive and senior leadership team is to ensure we provide cohesion to the team. We are doing that in a number of ways because it is very important. These are very important people positioned in the organisation. We are doing it in a number of ways, including working very closely with the Department and the Policing Authority in terms of getting additional professional skill sets in place to support the team.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Will Ms O'Sullivan answer my question now, please?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Okay, for a third time, will Ms O'Sullivan answer my question, please?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Okay, for the fourth time, will Ms O'Sullivan answer my question, please?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I will repeat it. Does Ms O'Sullivan have confidence in every single member of senior management in An Garda Síochána in their current positions? The majority of them have been witnesses here. Does Ms O'Sullivan have full confidence in each and every one of them and their capacity to work together?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Ms O'Sullivan can break it down whichever way she wants. I will make it simple for her. Does she have full confidence in them in their roles? That is the first question. Second, does she have full confidence that every member of her senior management team has the capacity to do their job? Third, does she have confidence they can all work together collectively to the best of An Garda Síochána's ability and in the best interest of the Irish public?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
I will take the last one first. Yes, I am confident we are working together to create a cohesive, effective team. It is greatly assisted by the capacity issue, which means we have had new people brought onto the team in recent times. There are new skill sets and a different perspective. It is a very positive thing. I have confidence going forward that we will and can create a cohesive, effective team. I think that will be very much supported by the skill sets that we are working to bring onto the team.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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To be fair to the Commissioner, I have asked this question in numerous ways now and I am still not getting a clear answer. Members of the public, who are watching proceedings, need to know, as a result of what they have seen here, that Ms O'Sullivan has full confidence in every way in each and every one of the management team in An Garda Síochána. I need to know this, as the person who is chairing this meeting. I have gone through thousands of pages of documents and have seen contradictions all over the place. I have seen issues with interpersonal relationships - we all have, in fairness - and evidence that is contradictory. It is imperative that Ms O'Sullivan honestly answers the question whether she has full confidence in each and every one of them given what has transpired before the Committee of Public Accounts on this issue.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
I will put it like this: if I look back on 2014 to now, it is only very recently in the last couple of weeks that we actually have anywhere close to a full complement management team. It was not until January of this year that we actually had a fully functioning executive. That is nobody's fault here. The reality is what we have had to do since 2014 is build up a team and build up an effective team. In any organisation going through the type of deep structural change, cultural change and reform we are going through, there will always be tensions within teams. Our job is to make sure we pull together that team into a cohesive, effective team and I am confident we are doing that. I am confident that the members of the team supported by the appropriate skill sets will be in a position to continue to provide that effective leadership.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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So Ms O'Sullivan has confidence in every single person.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That does not mean Ms O'Sullivan has confidence in every individual. I find it absolutely alarming. I will move on. Earlier we had engagement with the Comptroller and Auditor General on the role of Accounting Officer. I presume Ms O'Sullivan is fully aware of what is the role of Accounting Officer.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Ms O'Sullivan has been fully aware since she took over the role.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What date did Ms O'Sullivan take over?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Given the evidence we have heard previously on what the Commissioner was told in July 2015, which is disputed by different evidence we have heard from many different witnesses, would the Comptroller and Auditor General have expected to be informed of matters that were being examined or investigated internally prior to the completion of an investigation? In other words, we now know the Commissioner was informed by legal letter, a letter we cannot see, which I will return to, on 24 July and that a meeting took place on 27 July. There is a dispute on when the committee was set up. A further meeting or document was put in place on 28 July, which we were told today. Would the Comptroller and Auditor General have expected that prior to the completion of such an investigation, he would have been informed once the Commissioner was made aware of these issues?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
Yes. The principle here is that a person exercising an independent function such as an external or internal audit should be given information that allows them to exercise their independence. If one does not know about something, one cannot take it into account when one exercises one's function. If the question is being put at a senior level in an organisation about whether they should tell the Comptroller and Auditor General about something, that is the time to tell. They might only be telling partial information but it gives the external auditor - in that case, me, as Comptroller and Auditor General - the power to assess the information that is available to identify any action we might recommend.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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In layman's terms, even if the Commissioner was made aware of only partial or basic information, some indication should have been made.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Even if it was only fairly basic.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Given what the Comptroller and Auditor General has told Ms O'Sullivan there, does it not alarm her that she did not inform him?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Will Ms O'Sullivan accept she had basic information on this?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Ms O'Sullivan said earlier on she understood the role of an Accounting Officer.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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With regard to the role of Accounting Officer, the Comptroller and Auditor General has told us that even with basic information he would have expected to have been told. We can debate how much she knew, but Ms O'Sullivan has accepted she had knowledge. Why is there a letter of 31 July that does not make any reference to it?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
I will talk about my mindset first. My mindset at that time and when I was presented with the statement of internal financial controls was that I certainly was not in possession of complete information. The advice I had been given from both the chief administrative officer and the deputy commissioner was that we needed to gather more information to have a complete picture. I fully accept what the Comptroller and Auditor General is saying and I have absolutely no issue with it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is alarming. I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General if it is an appropriate defence for any Accounting Officer to say they would not inform him of potential issues no matter how limited or basic the information is, which the Comptroller and Auditor General has just answered. Is it a defence to say they are gathering materials and all materials are not available to them so they have not informed the Comptroller and Auditor General yet?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
An Accounting Officer makes a judgment and I do not want to comment on a judgment made by the Accounting Officer. Where a significant matter arises where there is a question mark over an appropriation account or even that controls were not operating in the way they should have, that is the nature of an issue that should be brought to my attention.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Even a suspicion that controls are not in place and where there are basic concerns, it should have been brought to the Comptroller and Auditor General's attention.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is not a defence to say that we have not gathered all the information yet.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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There was a discussion in July 2015.
I think the Commissioner should reconsider publishing the letter from Ken Ruane. As Chairman of the committee here today I will officially ask her to reconsider that. It is her own decision but I am just asking her officially. It would be helpful to everyone and it would be in the interest of transparency. We will certainly be having a conversation with the Department of Justice and Equality about it later in the meeting.
In July 2015, the Commissioner said that she had a basic understanding of what was going on. I do not want to put words in her mouth so I ask her to let me know if she disagrees. I am not going to ask her about the letter from Ken Ruane but I will ask her about that whole process and about the meeting on 27 July that went on for somewhere between five minutes and more than two hours. Was the McGee report not appended to documentation provided for that meeting?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I did not say that the Commissioner did.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I did not say that the Commissioner did but that is the spectrum that we are looking at here. Did the Commissioner say that it was a very short meeting?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Over a cup of tea?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I accept that but it was very brief, which suggests a few minutes, but go on.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What is very brief? Two hours?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is fine. We do not need to go over this. There is going to be a difference of evidence and that is fine. Just answer the question.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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In the meeting on 27 July, was the Commissioner not in possession or aware of the McGee report?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Was it not discussed at the meeting?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Will the Commissioner consult her colleagues with her to find out if the McGee report was attached to the letter from Mr. Ruane? I appreciate that the Commissioner is not going to talk about that letter but I want to know if the McGee report was attached. If so, was it part of the meeting? If not, was it not discussed as part of the meeting? Will the Commissioner discuss that with her colleagues and give us an answer, please?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Which deputy?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Deputy Commissioner Ó Cualáin. The correspondence that had gone to this office. If I can put this in context as well, to be fair to all concerned, from my memory, on Friday we had been at a meeting in Ballymun in Dublin and on Monday we went directly to the college. I do not want to put words in the deputy commissioner's mouth but the correspondence would have landed over that-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am just trying to get a flavour of this meeting that took place on 27 July and which is disputed in length. Were Mr. Barrett's report and Mr. McGee's report discussed at length? It questions the Commissioner's level of knowledge which informed her decision not to bring in the internal auditor, not to do a section 41 and not to refer to any of this in the letter of 31 July to the Comptroller and Auditor General. This is critical information.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Commissioner did not do one.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
-----I was given, and that I agreed with, was that we needed to compile more information to be in a position to arrive at an informed decision. I also instructed that the Department be fully informed of what I was doing and that it would be invited to join in the working group. Section 41 takes many forms. At no stage did I make a decision not to do a section 41 or inform the Department.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Okay, but the fact is the Commissioner did not do one. The second issue is that we need to know if and at what length the McGee and Barrett reports were discussed at that meeting. The Commissioner's decision as based on the basic or more extended knowledge she has is a critical issue for our committee in terms of making deliberations and reporting on this. The decision not to do a section 41, not to inform the internal auditor until March 2016, and not to inform the Comptroller and Auditor General, despite his evidence here today, is based on the documentation and discussion at that meeting, which is a highly disputed meeting.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
As I said to Deputy Connolly, in my experience things can differ. I am sure that we all have a different account of this meeting here, for example, even though there is a public record of it. I am sure that in two months or two years we will all have a very different recollection and account of what transpired. That is a fact.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is not a fact actually, but go on.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am pretty experienced politician and I can see when there is contradictory evidence being given in front of me that does not stand up to scrutiny. That is what I am seeing here today and what I have seen over the past four meetings. This concerns just one meeting.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Okay. You might answer the question, please.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Okay. Let us run through this meeting. It took place on 27 July, the letter was from 24 July. We have evidence given to us here from Mr. Ruane that he has a note from 30 June where he was informed by Mr. Barrett that Mr. Dunne had informed the Commissioner of the issues around Templemore on 30 June. We have a meeting that took place on 2 July. It is now under dispute as to whether that was the committee that was set up to deal with Templemore. The Commissioner is saying, and she should contradict me if I am being unfair, that this is the first iteration. That then moved on because the Commissioner claims in her evidence on 4 May that she acted promptly and immediately once she was made aware of the issues on 27 July. We have a dispute as to whether that was the committee that was set up to deal with Templemore or whether that was set up at the meeting of 27 July. Mr. Culhane and Mr. Barrett were in agreement that it was on 2 July that this was set out. We also have evidence of a letter sent by Mr. Barrett to Mr. Dunne on 8 July which he received on 9 July which also states that the Commissioner was informed of this.
Does the Commissioner not see that these multiple contradictions over when she was informed of the issues around Templemore cause both the public and this committee serious concerns?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is not all hearsay.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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With all due respect, there is other evidence, namely, the letter of 8 July. This is not hearsay. It is just a letter saying this happened.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
I want to be very clear. I cannot account for what someone else put in letters. What I do know and can inform the committee of is what I what I know, my personal knowledge. My personal knowledge is that I became aware of this on 27 July. I just want to be very clear. At some stage Mr. Dunne told me that he would be away from the office on a particular day because he was going to the college to deal with matters. That is the only other thing that I am aware of. I became aware of the issues around Templemore on 27 July.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will have to make a judgment call here. We are hearing contradictory evidence all over the place about this committee and about 27 July. We will have to make a decision based on the evidence given to us. I have some final few questions. Does the Commissioner believe that full co-operation has been given to Niall Kelly?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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When Deputy Commissioner Ó Cualáin wrote to Mr. Kelly asking him to come in and look at these issues in March, was he subsequently given access to all accounts and everything?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Was he given access to the European accounts that are now under discussion?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is not my question. My question was not whether it was instructed that he be given access but whether he was given access to the European accounts, which Mr. Kelly briefed the Commissioner on over the last weekend.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Commissioner repeat that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is okay. Go ahead.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
From what I have been told by Mr. Nugent and Deputy Commissioner Ó Cualáin, my understanding is that, basically, in Mr. Kelly's initial audit all 50 accounts were examined by him, which would include those accounts. The only account he may not have been aware of at that time was what is now known as the Cabra account, and that subsequently came out in the audit.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Why was he not made aware of the Cabra account? The Commissioner might ask Mr. Ó Cualáin as well. He has been in front of us twice. Why did he not make us aware that he was not made aware of the Cabra account?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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You are the witness. They are here to support you.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Fine. Ask him.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We have rules and procedures inside here, Commissioner, so please answer the question.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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No, I am not. I am asking the Commissioner a very specific question. She is the Accounting Officer and might please remember that. We need to know if the internal auditor, Mr. Niall Kelly, was given access to everything from March 2016. The Commissioner has now given evidence that subsequently he got information on the Cabra account. Why was that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Does that not concern the Commissioner? Listen, we have reports now of what is potentially fraud. Now we find out that the internal auditor - at the same time he was given access to everything else - was not given access to the Cabra account, and the Commissioner does not know about it.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
If I may clarify, none of my colleagues are aware of it. Deputy Commissioner Ó Cualáin, was not aware of it. We will have to check with Mr. Kelly and come back to the committee because I am not aware of the answer to the question that the Vice Chairman asked. Mr. Kelly has not raised any issues with me personally.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Let me-----
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Sorry, Vice Chairman, but if I could. I am told by the deputy commissioner that he has not raised any issues with him. If he wishes to clarify for the committee whether there was any account-----
Mr. Nugent is trying to be helpful and indicated that perhaps it was the Cabra account, but we do not know. We are speculating.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Basically, this is what we need to know. I will also make a comment. First, we need to know, which the Commissioner as the Accounting Officer cannot confirm, if Mr. Kelly was given access to everything from March 2016.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Earlier evidence was that he may not have been given access to the Cabra account, which is now pretty famous at this stage. Let me finish. There is a second issue. Through this process, will the Commissioner as the Accounting Officer, even though I believe she should be aware of it, ask her management team if he was given access to all accounts immediately? This is not about instructions but whether he actually was given access to all of the accounts.
As a last thing, the Commissioner said earlier on that Mr. Barrett-----
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
On a point of clarification, because I think we may be confusing ourselves, all of us here, including me, by this conferring and confusing the committee, it is very hard to follow a train of conversation while conferring with witnesses who are present. Our understanding is that the Cabra account closed in 2010. Therefore, I do not know - I am speculating - but the account may have been uncovered in Mr. Kelly's audit process as opposed to someone giving access to an audit that started in 2015. However, we will have to clarify that because I want to be fair and truthful to the committee.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Fair enough.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will give the Commissioner that time.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, why do we bring in witnesses and have only one witness?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Deputy was not here at the beginning.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I only asked the question. In the same way here the last day-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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No. I understand-----
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Can I say it? We have two people sitting outside our witness in the middle who are relevant to what is being asked. Why did we not make them witnesses? The same thing happened here the last day. There were two witnesses again outside-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Deputy Aylward, we had a discussion in private session. You were not here for it. Maybe-----
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is that the reason I should not ask the question?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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No, it is not. I am just telling the Deputy what happened. It was a decision of the committee. It was not my decision.
I have a final two very quick ones. When asked about when Mr. Barrett looked for correspondence relating to the letter in which Mr. Culhane had cited the Official Secrets Act, the Commissioner gave evidence, in fairness to her, that absolutely no investigation was ever even considered in relation to the issue. She also spoke about that weekend when Mr. Barrett looked for the letter. She said it was a very busy weekend and that a lot of stuff was going on and there was a potential industrial strike. Where was she that weekend?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Commissioner might come back to us. This is my last question. We have had a serious number of questions asked about how funds were distributed and used etc. I presume the Commissioner is not aware-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Fine. Was the Commissioner aware of any of the funds? She was in Templemore. She might remind me of when she was superintendent. Was it around 2000?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Commissioner was there again subsequently, in 2007-ish, as assistant commissioner.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Fair enough. However, during all of this time, she was never aware of any issues relating to Templemore, any issues relating to any accounts or any issues whatsoever. She was not aware of any unauthorised spending, spending on inappropriate gifts or spending on anything that was inappropriate during all of that time.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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As part of being acting Commissioner and Commissioner, she was aware that a company was set up and, since she became acting Commissioner and then Commissioner, that there were bank accounts in the names of senior gardaí. When did she become aware of those issues?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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They were both issues that were illegal. A garda could not be a director of a company and, obviously, could not be opening bank accounts. We had evidence whereby they actually opened bank accounts without the permission of the Department of Justice and Equality. What did the Commissioner think of that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I call Deputy Cassells.
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Vice Chairman and welcome the Commissioner and her team here this afternoon. At the outset, let us look at the exploration of the questioning that has been happening over a series of these meetings relating to Templemore and its importance to public discourse. In the complexities of some of the questions that are being thrown at the Commissioner, that and why this probing is happening is sometimes lost. Specifically, I think it is best encapsulated by the document, "A Critical Inflection Point" which she referenced earlier and was written on 29 September 2015.
Mr. Barrett, when writing to the CAO, expressed his concern about the scale and amount of co-mingled moneys at Templemore - some €12 million over ten years and a total of €2.3 million in investment accounts at its peak - and the confirmation that no refund was made at year-end from the surpluses generated. This is a point to which Mr. Kelly referred in his presentation to the committee when he said Deputy Commissioner Rice stated in a note in 2009 "I strongly believe that any surplus money does not belong to the State but rather is owned by the members of AGS". He pointed out that this had occurred since the position of Accounting Officer had been bestowed on the holder of the office of Commissioner in 2005. This is the crucial point in years when An Garda Síochána needed a substantial Supplementary Estimate from the Exchequer. We are not just interested in exploring bad processes here because this had a direct impact on the taxpayer. This was effectively a bailout. Substantial surpluses were being generated yet, as pointed out in "A Critical Inflection Point", this was at a time when Supplementary Estimates were needed as well. The Commissioner mentioned her 36 years on the force. While she was not Commissioner at the time in question, can Ms O'Sullivan explain how these belief systems came into being such that people were of the view that surpluses generated did not belong to the State but rather to members of An Garda Síochána at a time when Supplementary Estimates from the taxpayer were required?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
To clarify in respect of Mr. Barrett's "A Critical Inflection Point", the first I saw of that document was when it was here at the first committee meeting I believe. As a point of record, it is very disadvantageous to be asked to read documents in a committee room in the course of a meeting. It would have been preferable to have had the opportunity to see the documents beforehand and it would be much better from a learning point of view if they were all shared with the witnesses beforehand. It is very difficult for me to get into the mindsets of people but I can say that the historical context is that this was a funding model established some time around the time of the Walsh report in the 1980s. It was a very complex structure at the time with the per capitagrants being given. It then developed and became even more complex in nature and the practices that developed around that prior to the time of the Commissioner's becoming Accounting Officer became very complex and unwieldy. That is evidenced by the fact that they were so complex when we began the work in 2015 that trying to unravel them and distinguish what was what was very tedious.
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that. I know that some accounts operated independently of each other but the Commissioner can understand people's concern and anger if surpluses were being generated - for example, €2.3 million at the peak - at a time when Supplementary Estimates were required from the Exchequer.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Yes I can, and I can absolutely understand the concern of this committee and, indeed, the concerns of the general public. Our focus has been on making sure that this cannot happen again. By way of assurances, these surpluses cannot build up in the model that is currently implemented.
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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The Commissioner said to Deputy Connolly earlier that by the end of this calendar year she would be confident that she would unravel the complex architecture of the accounts. Does she have real confidence that everything will be unearthed and that, as was said earlier, there will be a blowing wide open of all the policies involved? On what is that confidence based?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Yes, I am confident. The confidence is based on the 19 recommendations of Mr. Kelly's interim audit report which had been given to Mr. Nugent to implement in full. Mr. Nugent chairs a high-level steering group. He has informed me that today he is in a position to inform the committee that we believe those recommendations will all be implemented by the end of this year.
Second, we have put in new administrative structures in the college, including one of the recommendations in Mr. Kelly's report, a principal officer with experience in this area who we are also supporting.
Third, to satisfy ourselves and to give me, as Accounting Officer, this committee and us, as the executive, assurances, our new audit committee is meeting for the first time next week, on 27 June, which is opportune. We will ask the audit committee for its advices on reviewing our internal control mechanisms and on how the internal financial control mechanisms - the audit committee, the internal audit and our new risk management processes - interact to ensure that we are in compliance with best corporate governance standards for public sector bodies. We will keep that under continuous review and take any advices from this committee and the Comptroller and Auditor General when he completes his report and from our own audit committee.
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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In response to earlier questioning by Deputy MacSharry, the Commissioner said that, at the meeting on 27 June, she hopes relations will be repaired. She spoke to Deputy MacSharry of that difference of opinion and interpersonal differences. To describe the relationship between Mr. Culhane and Mr. Kelly and Mr. Barrett as a difference of opinion would be to gloss over what is happening there. The best word to describe the atmosphere on the day they attended a meeting of this committee is "toxic". It was unbelievable to see the hostility manifest itself between those gentlemen who were supposedly on the same side. I do not think it was a difference of opinion. I am asking about the Commissioner's confidence to the effect that she can get to the heart of the matter and achieve the reform she seeks in light of the sheer toxic hostility between these people. Can the Commissioner understand that from our position, seeing that toxic atmosphere, we wonder what in God's name they are like when they are away from here where they were on public show? If they could not hide their contempt for one another on that day, what are they like when they are elsewhere? The relevance of this for everyone watching and trying to get to the truth of the matter is whether we can have confidence that these gentlemen can work together.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
In case there is any misunderstanding, I absolutely think these are really serious issues. They go to the heart of what we are trying to achieve in the way of cultural reform. My explanation of the interpersonal difficulties is the genesis of what has happened. There are very deeply held differences of view and opinion between individual members. Our job is to make sure we put those into place. One of our serious concerns - and my concern, as Accounting Officer and as Commissioner - is to make sure that we review the process in place to ensure these matters cannot happen again, and that those very critical structures and the individuals leading them are able to interact and work together effectively to make sure I can get the assurances I need. That is why we are asking the audit committee to give us advices on how to review the structures. Separately, we are doing some work. As I said, only in the past two weeks we have made the latest additions to our senior leadership team. That is a very positive move. When we get the new civilian members of the team, the dynamic of the team will change. It is my job, as Commissioner, and our job collectively, as an executive, to make sure we support the team, create a cohesive, effective team and make sure the skill sets are there to support all the individuals.
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Has the Commissioner spoken to Mr. Culhane since his appearance before this committee and asked him whether he can work with the gentlemen on the audit team who were present?
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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To refer again to the famous letter dated 24 October 2015, he was quite vociferous in his attacks on Mr. Barrett. That is quite unusual. Whatever someone might say behind a person's back, to put it in writing and nail this guy in the manner that he did when he said Mr. Barrett "just stopped short of calling a deputy commissioner a liar" and when he referred to his "irrational behaviour" and "lack of respect" was quite something.
It was quite damning language that he used in respect of Mr. Barrett.
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I was a journalist in my previous career and I would not call it strong language, I would call it damning.
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of these interpersonal issues, and the super toxic atmosphere, I think it is more sinister. There is the issue of the uncovering of practices. On the last occasion I asked Mr. Kelly whether these practices were wilful misappropriation or incompetence. Mr. Kelly said it was coming down on the scale of incompetence rather than wilful misappropriation. However, I probed him further on the practices that were uncovered and on the concerted effort to thwart the truths that were coming to light, a point that was scratched on a while ago. I think that is as serious as it gets in terms of the issues at play.
In terms of people's interpretation of whether this was wilful misappropriation of funds or just sheer incompetence, if there was a concerted effort to thwart Mr. Kelly in his work on the matter, that brings a whole new dimension. I put that question to Mr. Kelly and he said: "I think there is sufficient evidence before this committee to say that the Office of the Director of Finance, or in the past the Office of the Deputy Commissioner of Strategy and Change Management did not forward information to me." The college itself did not forward information to internal audit. That is a pretty damning situation.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Yes, Deputy. I do not know whether Deputy Cassells was here earlier, but he may be aware that Mr. Howard, the outgoing chair of the audit committee had corresponded with me in relation to certain matters and those matters are in a different process which we are dealing with at present through the chief administrative officer. Separately, we have to be very mindful of the fact that we are working to make sure that we deal with all of these issues and that we put the necessary structures in place that address all of these issues and ensure that they can never happen again.
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I have no doubt of that, Commissioner, but in terms of dealing with the issues, it is whether there are team players willing to make that happen. Again, I refer to Mr. Barrett's reply to the same question, who spoke about having a very substantial difference of opinion with the finance director. These are his words:
I think there is a very significant difference between outputs and outcomes. There may be memos, there may be meetings, as Mr. Culhane outlined, but it changed nothing. The show went on. On my arrival in Templemore I could not believe what it was that sat in plain view despite all the memos and all the history that Mr. Culhane has referred to, it continued in plain view contrary to the blue book.
He concludes: "I did not create this, I stumbled upon it, I did not get the "let us resolve it attitude" as the first response. Those who I would have imagined were statutorily responsible for dealing with matters like this did not race to my aid, no more than that do I need to say."
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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He does not believe so, Commissioner.
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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He does not believe so.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Deputy, I think the evidence speaks for itself. What we can demonstrate very clearly is that from 27 July 2015, to date, there were immediate actions taken. If I may give the timeline on that, on 27 July these matters were raised. On 30 July they were actioned. The first meeting of the steering group took place on 6 August and thereafter a series of actions were implemented, which resulted in the 19 recommendations of Mr. Kelly's internal audit report that will be implemented by the end of this year. What is really important to emphasise about that is that this is some thing that has been going on and an architecture and an infrastructure that is very complex and complicated has developed over nearly 40 years. What we have managed to do in that short space of time is to unravel that, to deal with it, where necessary, to deconstruct all that had been done and to put in place mechanisms to ensure that it can never happen again.
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I want to touch on some of those factual recommendations in a moment. First, let us consider what the Commissioner is facing to achieve that aim. Mr. Kelly in his summation made two key points that summed up everything that he was concerned about - governance and culture. If one is swimming against the tide of the culture - he pointed to the fact that he was convinced there was and still may be a culture in parts of the Garda Síochána of not admitting to problems - problems persist in trying to keep them in-house and away from transparent public scrutiny. Will the Commissioner outline how she proposes to untangle that culture that permeates the force and not just in the edifice of Templemore? Where does the root and branch reform of the culture begin and end?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
It goes on, it began in 2014. Part of the emphasis in 2014, and I made this point to Deputy Madigan earlier, was to ensure we start a significant cultural and structural reform. May I mention Mr. Kelly, because to be fair to Mr. Kelly, at his last appearance before the committee, when asked by the Chairman, Deputy Fleming, to clarify whether it was then or now, my understanding is that Mr. Kelly is on record as saying it was then. He openly admits the change in the culture, that he is getting co-operation and he mentioned in particular, the deputy commissioner, myself and others.
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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He was not able to clarify the extent of the "now" part.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Deputy, the "now" part is really important because it is part of what we are about. From 2014, as well as creating an environment where people can speak up freely, such as Mr. Barrett bringing these matters to our attention, we also decided that we would identify where we had problems. I was asked earlier about the breath test, which is a good example. If we had problems, we were going to shine a light on them and turn over the stones and ensure that we not only identified the issues but that we brought them to the surface and dealt with them and put them right. On top of that, we made a commitment to openness and transparency that would make it clear that they were in plain view and to involve all of the necessary parties.
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of the "now" and Mr. Kelly has not used the past tense but the present tense, he said "there is also evidence of a culture that thinks that An Garda Síochána is different from other public sector bodies and that the normal processes, the financial procedures and transparent democratic accountability do not apply".
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
There has been lots of commentary and some of it very fair and just, and very right about the culture of An Garda Síochána. There are many positives in the culture of An Garda Síochána. In many ways it is different, but when it comes to financial management procedures, public finances and transparency and accountability and in particular democratic accountability, let us be under no illusion, we are absolutely committed to engaging in democratic accountability to its full extent. That includes the architectural oversight that has been put in place. We remain committed to that as an executive. We remain committed to that not just as an organisation, there is an important distinction to be made here, we pride ourselves on our profession. This is not about An Garda Síochána as an organisation, this is about a profession of policing. An Garda Síochána is the professional policing service to protect the Irish citizens and the Irish public. In doing that we must engage to satisfy public confidence in the democratic accountability of the force.
Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I will focus on recommendation No. 6 in terms of the bank accounts; the recommendation was that the bank accounts under the control of the college management should be closed, with the exception of the college impress account. Let me ask whether Ms O'Sullivan has personally reviewed the arrangements regarding the bank accounts under the control of Garda management. Is she satisfied with the progress regarding implementing the recommendation in respect of the banking arrangements?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
Yes, Deputy. Mr. Nugent keeps me informed of the progress that has been made in that regard. He has line responsibility but also strategic responsibility for it. I am satisfied. My understanding is that, and Mr. Nugent can correct me if I am wrong, there are five bank accounts remaining and the five remaining bank accounts are being addressed as we speak. I can get more information from Mr. Nugent if the members so wish.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I call Deputy McDonald. We will be taking a lunch break afterwards.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Commissioner just remind members of the date on which Mr. Ruane advised her in respect of the section 41 disclosure?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms O'Sullivan. Did she discuss that advice with others?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What did they advise? Did they advise Ms O'Sullivan to go along with what Mr. Ruane was suggesting? Did they try to dissuade her of that?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am not being rude. We do not have the scope for a long narrative. I just need Ms O'Sullivan to answer. Did the persons concerned try to talk her in or out of observing the legal advice she had been given?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, that is fine.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The decision was taken. She was collaborating with these folks as she made up her mind one way or the other. Is that right?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
No, we met in the college to discuss the content of the letter. We knew Mr. Dunne had been doing some work and we wanted to discuss that to make sure Mr. Barrett was aware of what had been going on. The following day, on the 28th, I believe, the deputy commissioner wrote to me and-----
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am trying to get clarity on a point. Mr. Ruane advised, in respect of the Garda Síochána Act 2005, that a disclosure be made under section 41. Ms O'Sullivan received that advice and then discussed, conferred, debated and deliberated on that advice with Mr. Twomey, Mr. Ó Cualáin and who else?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Just bear with me. We will go there. I just want clarity. She had the advice and then conferred with Mr. Twomey, Mr. Ó Cualáin, Mr. Dunne-----
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Did she confer with Mr. Culhane?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I have a letter that was referred to earlier, which refers to Mr. Barrett and was written by Mr. Culhane. It was sent to the Commissioner and deputy commissioners and is dated 24 October 2015. It is pretty excoriating in respect of Mr. Barrett. I think Ms O'Sullivan would recognise that the language is pretty choice and dramatic. The interesting thing is that the title of the letter sent is "Re Garda Síochána Act section 41 - Garda College". I find it very interesting that Mr. Culhane is having a right go at Mr. Barrett, up to and including suggesting that he may have broken the Official Secrets Act and all sorts, and defending his honour.
He was quite aggressive in respect of Mr. Barrett and stated Mr. Barrett thought he was responsible for the devil and all and that it is all his fault. Is it not interesting that this is how he highlights the matter? He does not explicitly say anywhere that a disclosure should not be made. If one read the letter, one would have to imagine it was designed not just to take a pop at Mr. Barrett, but also to dissuade any notion of making that disclosure.
He states: "I refer to the ongoing issues concerning the Garda college which recently culminated in a minute from the head of legal affairs [that is our friend, Mr. Ruane] based upon partial and inaccurate representations made by Mr. John Barrett advising the Commissioner to make a section 41 disclosure to the Minister." Although he never says in the text that a disclosure should not be made, if it landed on my desk I would read it as an attempt to persuade me not to make that disclosure. Is that how Ms O'Sullivan read the document?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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No, no.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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No, excuse me. Ms O'Sullivan is not doing that. Stick to the knitting.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do not want a big long narrative from Ms O'Sullivan.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I would like Ms O'Sullivan to answer briefly.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Briefly-----
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----and to the point.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
In effect, the working group, which was set up to establish this, was set up on 6 August 2015. That date was the first meeting of the group. My understanding is the Department was involved in this. My point was that there are many ways of ensuring that the Department was kept fully informed and that was one way of making sure the Department was fully informed. A section 41 disclosure does not always need to take the form of a letter. Under no circumstances-----
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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With all due respect, the Commissioner is doing a bit of verbal pilates in terms of how she is presenting the fact. She did not interpret Mr. Culhane's letter as an attempt to dissuade disclosure one way or the other. Is that right?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am delighted. I am not interested in her pastimes.
I want to move on to another piece of correspondence. This is again from Mr. Culhane, but was sent to Mr. Kelly. It is dated 13 October 2016. He wrote this a couple of weeks before he wrote to the Commissioner. In this letter, he takes Mr. Kelly to task. He accuses him of being unprofessional, misleading and mischievous. He accuses him of making defamatory comments. Ms O'Sullivan is familiar with this piece of correspondence. Again, the language is fairly dramatic. Those are his words.
Mr. Howard, chair of the audit committee, wrote to Ms O'Sullivan not in respect of this letter, but, rather, this turn of events because he is obviously very concerned that this is a direct interference with the internal audit function. He is alarmed by this. In his correspondence, he said he felt moved to raise the issue with Ms O'Sullivan and that, in his view "...the Head of Internal Audit has acted in good faith. Therefore I have to treat an accusation to the contrary as a very serious issue of principle". He went on to say: "The situation can only be resolved if the assertions made by Mr Culhane are either unconditionally withdrawn or unambiguously overruled by a superior authority." I understand that the remarks were neither withdrawn nor were they overruled by a superior authority. Am I right in that assessment?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Whatever the date, we can clarify that after Ms O'Sullivan accepts she knows the letter to which I am referring.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I want Ms O'Sullivan to clarify that he wrote to her - I have the letter here - he said this is very serious, in reference to the head of internal audit, and something needs to happen. Either the accusation needs to be withdrawn by Mr. Culhane or it needs to be overruled by a superior authority. My understanding is that the remarks were not withdrawn, nor were they overruled by a superior authority. Am I right in thinking that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What is the reference number on the top of the letter?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is 55-262802/15. It is a letter from Mr. Michael Howard, chair of the Garda audit committee, to Commissioner O'Sullivan. I understood it was dated 19 April.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Howard also told us he had a good and very open relationship with Ms O'Sullivan. He said they were in touch and enjoyed good confidence. There was no tension. He told us he raised these issues with Ms O'Sullivan. We have in writing the fact that he looked for the matter to be resolved and asked for the unconditional withdrawal of Mr. Culhane's remarks or the overruling of those remarks by a superior authority. I simply want to know whether either of those things happened.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Ms O'Sullivan received the letter. What did she do? Did she go and talk to Mr. Culhane?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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When did the Commissioner get that legal advice?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Commissioner did not automatically approach Mr. Culhane.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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When did it go into that process?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We need a firmer answer than that. It was very clear from the correspondence that what Mr. Howard wanted was for the Commissioner to intervene because she is in charge. Is the latter not the case?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What authority does the Commissioner carry within the force?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What clout does she carry? I am conscious that she is the first woman in the job. I do not know, because I do not work in her organisation, how that was received. I imagine, given the nature, size and scale of the organisation, she probably got mixed reviews on her appointment. I am trying to establish, because she is in charge, if the Commissioner carries the level of clout required for a person who is in charge. That is what I am asking her.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
I do not think the Deputy was here earlier when I was explaining the structure of the organisation. We are an organisation of approximately 16,000 people. It is a €1.5 billion operation, dispersed 24-7, 365 days a year right across the Twenty-six Counties and with international obligations. We have the mandate for both policing and security, as the committee will know. As such, we have a management structure in place to help with the day-to-day management of that company.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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But the Commissioner is in charge, is she not?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
As the Commissioner and Accounting Officer of An Garda Síochána, I have responsibilities which I delegate to individuals. There are three other members on the executive - namely, the two deputy commissioners and Mr. Nugent, the CAO - who each have line responsibility for particular lines. In this case, Mr. Nugent has line responsibility. In that line responsibility, I directed and requested Mr. Nugent to seek legal advices. As such, I am not really sure I understand the context of the Deputy's question.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Let me put it a different way. In what circumstances does the Commissioner decide not to delegate? What needs to happen for the Commissioner, as the person in charge, to decide that, on a particular occasion and notwithstanding her organisational structures, a matter requires her direct intervention? What was to stop her contacting Mr. Culhane to say that the matter had been raised with her and to express the concern she clearly holds in respect of the correspondence with Mr. Kelly? What was to stop her doing that?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Why did the Commissioner not do it?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Why did the Commissioner need legal advice?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is that the Commissioner's managerial style? Is her leadership style such that she asks for legal advice on everything before she makes an intervention of that sort?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is there not a disciplinary procedure within An Garda Síochána? Are there not standard channels and mechanisms for dealing with either what the Commissioner describes as personality clashes or tensions between individuals or acts which would be considered offside and unacceptable by management and by the person in charge of An Garda Síochána?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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To summarise, because I am mindful of the time, the Commissioner is telling the committee that she has those channels and procedures and that she is the person in charge, but when something like this happens, which is an obvious matter of concern as any attempt to interfere with the carrying out of the internal audit function is, of course, going to cause alarm, she cannot either approach the person directly or turn her hand to the established channels. Instead, she had to go through some as yet unspecified and convoluted process of going to law officers and seeking legal advice before acting.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Absolutely.
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
In order to ensure that we are adhering to due process, it is important that the advices of the law officers are there. I want it on the record that I have absolutely no reticence in taking immediate action when required and in this case I took immediate action to get advices. It is important that the advice is there to give everybody fair procedures and due process.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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There is no evidence of the Commissioner taking immediate or decisive action in this whole debacle. On the contrary, we seem to have heard of a decision, taken at whatever level, not to inform the Comptroller and Auditor General to keep these matters beyond the purview of the Committee of Public Accounts. We dealt with correspondence earlier today, which I will not retread, in terms of a letter the Commissioner sent to Mr. McCarthy which might be interpreted as being misleading to the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. She was given legal advice then by Mr. Ruane to activate section 41, which was the right advice for what it is worth, but she did not take it. She had some methodology of collaborating, informing or discussing but she did not act decisively in that case. Then we have, astonishingly, a scenario in which the head of finance, Mr. Culhane, attempts to lean on and goes so far as to threaten legal action against the head of internal audit. This matter is then raised with the Commissioner by the chair of the Garda audit committee. Far from being decisive, the Commissioner failed to act.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Final question, Deputy.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Commissioner failed to act decisively. Is this not a testament to the failure of her leadership within An Garda Síochána?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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When?
Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan:
On 27 July 2015. Within days of that meeting, there was a process established and put in place to deal with these very complicated issues, which have been going on for almost 40 years and which will be finalised by the end of this year. The evidence will show that, not just now but in my role as Commissioner, I have always taken decisive and sometimes quite unpopular action.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We need to conclude.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Can the Commissioner write to us and set out on paper the facts in respect of Mr. Howard's ask of her to intervene? He was asking her to intervene and override the attack on Mr. Kelly by Mr. Culhane. We have had a vague sense of something happening and legal advices but can we have on paper dates, times, if p