Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 21 November 2017
Joint Standing Committee on the Irish Language, the Gaeltacht and the Islands
Seirbhísí Dátheangacha: An Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe
5:00 pm
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Ós rud é go bhfuil níos mó ná ceathrar comhaltaí i láthair, is féidir linn tús a chur leis an gcruinniú. Ba mhaith liom céad míle fáilte a chur roimh na hoifigigh ón Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe atá anseo chun cur i láthair a dhéanamh: Daithí Ó Caigne, atá mar leas-rúnaí acmhainní daonna sa Roinn; agus Nicolas Ó Miacháin, atá mar phríomhoifigeach cúnta sa Roinn. Cuirim fáilte freisin roimh Mairead Nic Caba, atá mar phríomhoifigeach sa tSeirbhís um Cheapacháin Phoiblí. Tá a fhios agam nach bhfuil an Ghaeilge ar a dtoil acu. Ní chuireann sé sin isteach orm. Tuigim go bhfuil iarracht á dhéanamh acu. Is féidir leo úsáid a bhaint as na cluasáin. Sula dtosóimid, iarraim ar chléireach an choiste an ráiteas maidir le pribhléid a léamh.
Clerk to the Committee:
Ba mhaith liom na finnéithe a chur ar a n-aird go bhfuil, de bhua alt 17(2)(l) den Acht um Chlúmhilleadh 2009, siad faoi chosaint ag lán-phribhléid maidir leis an bhfianaise a thugann siad don choiste seo. Má ordaíonn an coiste do na finnéithe ámh éirí as fianaise a thabhairt i leith ní áirithe agus má leanann siad dá tabhairt, níl siad i dteideal tar éis sin ach pribhléid cháilithe i leith na fianaise acu. Ordaítear dóibh nach dtabharfar ach fianaise a bhaineann le hábhar na n-imeachtaí seo. Fiafraítear dóibh cleachtadh parlaiminte a urraimiú nach chóir, más féidir, daoine ná eintiteas a cháineadh ná líomhaintí a dhéanamh ina n-aghaidh, ina ainm, ina hainm nó ina n-ainmneacha ar shlí ar bhféadfaí iad a aithint. Ba mhaith liom iad a chur ar an eolas go ndéanfar na ráiteas tionscnaimh a chuireann siad faoi bhráid an choiste a fhoilsiú ar shuíomh ghréasáin an choiste tar éis an chruinnithe seo. Meabhraítear do chomhaltaí an cleachtadh parlaiminte atá ann le fada nár chóir dóibh tuairimí a thabhairt maidir le duine atá taobh amuigh de na Tithe, nó le hoifigeach, ina ainm nó ina hainm ar shlí ina bhféadfaí é nó í a aithint.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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B'fhéidir gur cheart dom i dtús báire an díospóireacht seo a chur i gcomhthéacs. Beagnach bliain ó shin, rinne an chomhchoiste seo cinneadh ceistneoir a sheoladh chuig chuile Roinn. Is dócha go bhfuil na freagraí uilig ar ais anois. Tá tús á chur againn inniu leis an bpróiseas maidir leis na freagraí a fuair muid ó na Ranna éagsúla. Is é sin an comhthéacs atá leis an cruinniú. Iarraim ar Daithí Ó Caigne tús a chur le cur i láthair na Roinne.
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
I am here today, as requested by the committee, to speak about the Department's response to a questionnaire that was submitted by this committee. I will address the progress the Department is making with the objectives and actions that have been set out in respect of Irish language and bilingual services throughout the Civil Service. I am grateful to the Chair for her understanding of the fact that my level of Irish is not sufficiently developed to speak in Irish this afternoon. I will speak in English for that reason.
Irish language use is a core Government policy objective. The availability of staff with Irish language proficiency in the Civil Service continues to be an important component of that policy. The questionnaire sent to all Departments by this committee last December was returned by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in January of this year. I can confirm that the Department reviews the level of demand for the provision of its services through the Irish language by monitoring the number of queries and requests received through Irish. As the committee will be aware, the Department's principal customers are the Minister for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform, the Minister of State, the Government and the Oireachtas, through which it serves the public and its elected representatives. The Department also engages with other Departments and serving and retired staff in the public service.
In formulating its advice, the Department must have regard to the views of a wide range of interests, including the social partners, business and sectoral representatives, research forums and institutions and EU and international bodies. It must also consider the views and expectations of society at large. The nature of its functions and work means the Department does not have a high level of direct contact with, or provide schemes and services directly to, individual members of the general public. The number of Irish speakers available in the Department and its offices now stands at seven, ranging in grade from clerical officer to assistant principal. They are willing to provide services to the public through the medium of Irish.
As the committee will be aware, the Minister for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform has responsibility for the Irish language in the Civil Service. While the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has overall responsibility for the Irish language in the Civil Service, each Department is ultimately responsible for identifying and addressing its Irish language needs, particularly with regard to the provision of public services in Gaeltacht areas. I do not intend to speak about the history of the Irish language in the Civil Service, other than to say the current arrangements were introduced in October 2013 following consideration of the award of bonus marks in competitions. The intention of this change was to increase the cohort of functional bilinguals in the Civil Service to reflect a more competency-based approach to recruitment and, where appropriate, promotion competitions. Reviews have been initiated by various Ministers with responsibility for Irish, the Gaeltacht and the islands.
Following concerns expressed about the current system of providing for functional bilinguals, the Government considered the matter in May of this year and agreed to publish an amending Bill to be called the official languages (amendment) Bill 2017. This Bill, along with the main language Act, will seek to ensure effective supports are in place for people who wish to carry out their affairs with the State through the Irish language. The main head in the Bill from the Department's perspective is head 9, the overall objectives of which are to ensure a certain percentage of new recruits to the public service are Irish speakers, to provide that all public offices in Gaeltacht areas operate through the medium of Irish and to increase the capacity of public bodies to provide public services through Irish. As is standard with any Bill, the Government decision provides for consultation with other Departments. This has taken place between officials in both Departments.
I want to mention an initiative that was taken by my Department and the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht in 2013 to improve the provision of language training proficiency for the Civil Service and certain public service organisations. The Department put in place a service level agreement with the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht for the provision of language training proficiency testing for the Civil Service and certain public service organisations. It is understood that Foras na Gaeilge has a contract in place with Gaelchultúr Teoranta for the provision of Irish language training to the public service. I understand that since 2013, some 304 civil servants and 4,744 other public service employees have attended courses run by Gaelchultúr. The purpose of the service level agreement was to support staff in developing their proficiency in the Irish language and to enhance the capacity of the Civil Service and other bodies to provide services to the public through Irish. The agreement is particularly important in the context of the Official Languages Act 2003 and the 20 year strategy for the Irish language, which runs from 2010 to 2030.
One of the key elements of the new Civil Service learning and development model is a common suite of training programmes. The suite contains 70 new training modules, two of which relate specifically to Irish language training. Following a tender process, Gaelchultúr Teoranta was the successful tenderer for Irish language training. The learning and development project team, along with other Irish language experts, has met Gaelchultúr's training specialists and has carried out an initial review of the existing accredited Irish language training programmes. A more indepth review is ongoing to ensure the current accredited Irish language training programmes fully address business needs.
As I have mentioned, Gaelchultúr has an existing tender to deliver Irish language training to the public sector. I understand this will expire in 2018. The learning and development framework, which is complementary to this contract, is for civil servants only and not for the wider public sector. This framework has a two-year duration up to 2019, with an option to extend for a further two years if necessary.
The new mobility scheme for clerical and executive officers, which was launched across the Civil Service last week, will not be fully operational until March 2018. It will allow staff members to mention their Irish language skills on their applications. It will be possible for people with such skills to be offered a mobility move out of sequence to an available position that requires a functional bilingual. I am sure the committee will accept that genuine efforts are being made to increase the number of functional bilinguals in the Civil Service. We do not suggest that the situation is ideal. As the committee will be aware, Ireland is coming out of a difficult economic period. Obviously, such issues have had some implications for our approach to recruitment, particularly with the surge in demand in recent years. I welcome the opportunity to hear the views of the committee. I will be happy to respond to questions and to provide more information and clarification.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tá sé beagáinín osréalach bheith ag léamh an cáipéis atá curtha chin cinn i nGaeilge agus bheith ag éisteacht leis an gcáipéis chéanna i mBéarla. Déanfaimid ár ndícheall leanacht ar aghaidh trí mheán na Gaeilge. B'fhéidir go léiríonn sé stádas na Gaeilge sa Státseirbhís go bhfuil na nithe seo chomh deacair. Tiocfaimid ar ais go dtí an pointe sin. Nuair a fhreagair an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe an cúigiú ceist sa cheistneoir, dheimhníodh go bhfuil sé de dhualgas go sonrach ar oifigeach ar leith a Roinn an mhonatóireacht seo a eagrú agus tuarascálacha rialta a dhéanamh. Níl mé chun a hainm a lua. An raibh an oifigeach sin, nó aon duine eile ón Roinn le Gaeilge, ar fáil inniu? Tá mé ag caint faoin fhreagra a thug an Roinn ar an gcúigiú cheist.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Sin é.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Cén fáth? Níl mé ag iarraidh cur isteach ar chúrsaí fostaíochta. Cén fáth nach raibh duine le Gaeilge-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Okay.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is ea. Níl aon Ghaeilge aici.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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De réir mar a thuigim, tá sé de dhualgas uirthi monatóireacht a dhéanamh ar chúrsaí Gaeilge sa Roinn. An bhfuil aon oifigeach ar leith sa Roinn nó san oifig a bhfuil sé de dhualgas go sonrach air nó uirthi an monatóireacht seo a eagrú agus tuarascálacha rialta a dhéanamh? An bhfuil an tUasal Ó Caigne ag rá nach bhfuil Gaeilge ag an mbean sin?
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Fáiltím roimh na hoigifigh go dtí an chomhchoiste. Táimid buíoch go bhfuil siad os ár gcomhair. Ba mhaith liom aird a tharraingt ar roinnt pointí a fheicim ón tuarascáil atá leagtha amach dúinn ag an Roinn. Tá an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe ag obair i gcomhar le Oifig an Choimisnéara Teanga ar chur i bhfeidhm na scéimeanna teanga atá luaite. Tá sé soiléir go bhfuil neamhghéilliúlacht ó thaobh scéimeanna teanga agus na Ranna éagsúla. Tá beagnach 40% de na Ranna Stáit agus na comhlachtaí poiblí nach bhfuil scéim teanga ar bith i bhfeidhm acu. An bhfuil náire ar an Roinn nach bhfuil sé sin ceartaithe? Is rud stairiúil é sin. Tá sé tarlaithe le riar maith blianta anuas. An bhfuil náire ar an Roinn go bhfuil an leibhéal neamhghéilliúlachta sin chomh ard agus nach bhfuil aon rud déanta faoi?
Cé mhéad duine ina iomláine atá fostaithe sna seirbhísí seo ar fad, idir Ranna Stáit agus comhlachtaí poiblí? Tá sé ráite go bhfuil 584 duine le hinniúlacht sa Ghaeilge. Cé mhéad é sin as an móriomlán? Cén móriomlán atá i gceist, agus cén céatadán atá i gceist ansin? Cén caighdeán Gaeilge atá ag an dream seo ar fad? Cén chaoi a dhéanann an Roinn tomhas ar an gcaighdeán Gaeilge atá ag na daoine atá fostaithe? Ar leor go ndéarfadh siad "tá cúpla focal agam, bhí mé sa Ghaeltacht cúpla uair agus d'fhoglaim mé Gaeilge don ardteist"? An bhfuil céim sa Ghaeilge acu? An bhfuil máistreacht sa Ghaeilge acu? Cén chaoi is féidir meastóireacht a dhéanamh ar chaighdeán na Gaeilge tríd na Státseirbhíse?
Tuigim go bhfuil sé mar sprioc go mbeidh Gaeilge ag 20% de na daoine nua a bheidh ag teacht isteach sa Státseirbhís. An bhfuil an Roinn muiníneach gur féidir é sin a bhaint amach? Cén chaoi a gcaithfidh an Roinn an córas earcaíochta a athrú le déanamh cinnte go dtarlóidh sé sin? Tá a fhios againn go bhfuil cásanna stairiúla ann ó thaobh an Roinn Gnóthaí Fostaíochta agus Coimirce Sóisialaí, mar shampla. Thóg daoine cásanna go ndearnadh éagóir orthu ó thaobh na Gaeilge de agus nach bhfuair siad ardú céime caoi nuair a chuir siad isteach ar fhostaíocht sa Roinn sin. Céard iad na próisis atá i gceist sa Roinn le déanamh cinnte de go dtabharfar tús áite don sprioc go mbeidh, ag deireadh an phróisis, 20% na hearcaithe inniúil sa Ghaeilge? Cén caighdéan Gaeilge a bheidh an Roinn sásta glacadh leis? Cén chaoi a dhéanfaidh an Roinn cinnte go mbeimid ag fáil daoine le Gaeilge ag na leibhéil éagsúla ó príomhoifigeach anuas? Is léir dúinn nuair a fhéachann muid ar an suirbhé nach bhfuil Gaeilge ag an uafás de na príomhoifigigh. Sílim go bhfuil 12 príomhoifigeach atá inniúil sa Ghaeilge. Cén chaoi a dhéanfaimid cinnte go mbeidh duine ag gach leibhéal inniúil sa Ghaeilge?
Tá sé soiléir ó na figiúirí maidir leis an líon Státseirbhíseach gurb eol dóibh go bhfuil líofacht acu sa Ghaeilge, agus atá toilteanach seirbhís a sholáthar don phobal trí Ghaeilge, go bhfuil roinnt Ranna lag go deo ó thaobh na Gaeilge de, agus gan ach cúigear nó faoina bhun acu. Tá an Roinn Airgeadais, an Roinn Leanaí agus Gnóthaí Óige agus an Roinn Talmhaíochta, Bia agus Mara san áireamh sa chomhthéacs sin. Cé go ndéanann an Taoiseach cuid mhaith gaisce ó thaobh na Gaeilge, is féidir Roinn an Taoisigh a lua ina leith seo. Is léir go bhfuil an fhadhb chéanna ag an gCoimisinéir Cosanta Sonraí, ag Oifig an Ard-Aighne, ag Oifig an Ard-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste, ag an Oifig Luachála, ag Coimisiún Ombudsman an Gharda Síochána, ag Oifig an Ombudsman do Leanaí agus ag an mBord um Fhaisnéis do Shaoránaigh. Níl cúigear le Gaeilge i gcuid de na Ranna agus na oifigí sin. Cén fáth ar tharla sé sin? Céard atá i gceist ag an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe a dhéanamh ionas go roinnfear an 20% nua seo atá ag teacht isteach trasna na heagrais ar fad? Níl aon mhaitheas na daoine nua ar fad a chur isteach sa Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna, mar shample, lena chinntiú go bhfuil go leor daoine sa Roinn sin amháin. Ba cheart dúinn a chinntiú go bhfuil siad ag dul trasna na Ranna agus na hoifigí Stáit éagsúla. Cén scála ama atá i gceist go dtí go mbeimid ag an leibhéal ina bhfuil 20% de na daoine ar fad atá ag teacht isteach inniúil sa Ghaeilge?
Baineann an cheist dheireanach atá agam leis an functional bilingual. Glacaim leis gur functional bilinguals muide ar an taobh seo. Cén chaoi a dhéanann an Roinn tomhas nó briseadh síos ar céard is functional bilingual atá ann? Conas a chruthófar gur functional bilingual atá ann? Tá cuid mhaith ceisteanna curtha agam. Tiocfaidh mé ar ais le ceisteanna eile.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Beidh sé seo beagáinín deacair, ach leanfaimid ar aghaidh.
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
In 2013, the Government approved the introduction of certain measures to support Irish language proficiency in the Civil Service. It revoked the policy of awarding bonus marks for Irish language proficiency in Civil Service recruitment and promotion competitions. It replaced the bonus marks policy with measures that sought to increase the cohort of functional bilinguals in the Civil Service. This was done to reflect a more competency-based approach to recruitment and, where appropriate, promotion competitions. There is an onus on individual Departments to identify skill sets across the board, including in the cases of positions that require proficiency in Irish. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform would become aware of that in two ways, the first of which is the workforce planning process, which has been deployed throughout the Civil Service and has been reinforced through the people strategy that was approved recently. It is intended that, over the course of a three-year horizon, we will identify the kinds of vacancies that require people with proficiency in Irish. That, in essence, is what I understand is meant by functional bilinguals.
The second way in which we become aware of the needs in this area is through the Public Appointments Service, which is asked to manage recruitment of promotion competitions in which proficiency in Irish is a requirement.
We are also made aware of vacancies through the Public Appointments Service, PAS, which is requested to recruit people or to manage promotion competitions for positions in which proficiency in Irish is a requirement. PAS originally used an organisation called Teastas Eorpach na Gaeilge but in recent years it has devised its own assessment process, which it is satisfied is robust, to identify sufficient proficiency to fill vacancies in which Irish is required. I need to be reminded----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Bhí a lán ceisteanna ann. Bhí ceist ann maidir leis na scéimeanna teanga.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Is é an chéad rud faoi na scéimeanna teanga ná go bhfuil 40% neamhghéilliúlacht ann. There is 40% non-compliance with the Official Languages Act in respect of the schemes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Leanfaimid ar aghaidh i nGaeilge más féidir.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Is í Roinn an fhinné an Roinn atá freagrach. Déanann an Coimisinéir Teanga tuarascáil bhliantúil ó thaobh neamhghéilliúlachta, or non-compliance, leis an Acht. Cuireann sé é sin ar aghaidh chuig an Aire sinsearach sa Roinn. Tá neamhghéilliúlacht i 40% de na Ranna agus na heagraíochtaí Stáit. Níl scéimeanna teanga acu. An bhfuil náire ag an bhfinné go bhfuil an leibhéal gheilliúlachta, nó an méid eagraíochtaí Stáit a bhfuil scéim teanga acu, chomh íseal sin? An nglacfaí leis sin i leith aon dlí eile sa tír?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
I do not know if it is the case that this Department is responsible for ensuring compliance. I believe that responsibility has passed to the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. This Department's responsibility in the first instance has been discharged by the putting in place of the Gaelchultúr contract. This allows Departments to draw on the expertise of that organisation to train up their people. In the current circumstances, this Department's learning and development module is rolling out a learning and development scheme across the Civil Service. Through a consultation process with the Departments a number of skills have been identified for the scheme. One such skill is proficiency in the Irish language. As I indicated to the Chair, the Department is in the course of putting in place a facility through Gaelchultúr Teoranta. This organisation will provide Irish language training to the Civil Service up to a proficiency of honours leaving certificate. Through a business partner process which helped build and develop the model, this level has been deemed by various Departments as sufficient for their Irish language requirements.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Leis an bpointe a chríochnú, sílim go bhfuil an tUasal Ó Caigne mícheart mar, ón tuiscint atá agam, is duine de na hombudsmen an Comisinéir Teanga. Tá na hombudsmen éagsúla freagrach don Aire Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe. Leagann an Comisinéir a thuarascáil bhliantúil ós comhair an Aire seo le feidhmiú muna bhfuil géilliúlacht ann. Nuair a bhí mise ar an Joint Oireachtas Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions ba é an tAire sinsearach a bhí ag déileáil leis. Níl aon cheangal idir sin agus an obair a dhéanann Gaelchultúr ó thaobh traenáil agus oiliúint Gaeilge de. Baineann cur i bhfeidhm na scéimeanna teanga le príomhoifigigh na Ranna agus leis na hAirí atá sna Ranna éagsúla. Dá bhrí sin, is ábhar an-mhór imní dom nach dtuigtear go bhfuil feidhm ollmhór ag an Aire Chaiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe i leith an ábhair sin. Is é atá freagrach, dar liomsa, ó thaobh géilliúlachta trasna na Ranna Stáit agus na comhlachtaí poiblí.
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
My understanding is that the Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht requires public bodies to prepare draft language schemes and to provide those schemes to him or her for confirmation. The Minister issues guidelines to public bodies to assist them in the preparation of draft schemes and the Minister may re-evaluate those guidelines whenever he or she considers it to be appropriate. It is not my understanding that it is-----
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Tá sé sin cruinn agus ceart, ach sa chás nach bhfuil scéim á cur i bhfeidhm ag an Roinn Airgeadais, an Roinn Dlí agus Cirt agus Comhionannais nó an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe féin, cuireann an Coimisinéir Teanga tuarascáil le chéile. Nuair a réitíonn sé an tuarascáil sin, cuireann sé ós comhair an Aire Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe í. Sa gcás nach bhfuil Roinn Stáit ag géilleadh don rud atá an Comisinéir Teanga ag rá, is gá go dtabharfadh an tAire treoir don Roinn Stáit sin feidhmiú agus an rud a chur i bhfeidhm. Is í sin an tuiscint atá agam. Is féidir linn soiléiriú a lorg arís ar an gceist sin.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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De réir cosúlachta, níl an tuiscint sin ag an Uasal Ó Caigne.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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B'fhéidir go bhfaighimid soiléiriú arís faoi sin.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tá an finné ag rá go bhfuil an dualgas sin ag an Aire Cultúir, Oidhreachta agus Gaeltachta agus a Roinn agus nach bhfuil an dualgas sin ar a Roinn féin. Sin atá ráite. Rachaimid ar aghaidh.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Cé mhéad duine atá fostaithe sa Státseirbhís san iomlán?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Chuirfeadh an t-eolas sin an rud i gcomhthéacs.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Tá 584 duine le Gaeilge trasna na Ranna ar fad. Cé mhéad duine atá sna Ranna ar fad? Cad é 584 duine mar chéatadán?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
I do not know that answer. We can speak about individuals who have been specifically recruited for positions which require proficiency in the Irish language. Some of my colleagues came directly into the Civil Service without being recruited through competitions which required proficiency in Irish and would be fluent Irish speakers. It would be very difficult to establish. We can give some indication by looking at those whom we have recruited in recent years into posts specifically requiring proficiency in Irish, but I have no idea in a wider sense.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Tá brón orm. Sílim go bhfuil míthuiscint i gceist. Maidir leis na heagraíochtaí atá luaite sa suirbhé, all of these Departments and organisations which are mentioned in the survey, I am just looking for the approximate total number of employees. Are there 5,000 people in total in all of these organisations? Are there 10,000?
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Cé mhéad Státseirbhísigh atá sa tír?
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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As 37,000 duine, tá 584 le Gaeilge.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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That is those who have declared de réir an tsuirbhé.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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So it is 584 as 37,000.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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An bhfreagróidh an finné an cheist a chuir an Seanadóir maidir le scála ama? Ansin rachaidh mé ar aghaidh go dtí an Teachta Ó Cuív. Chuir an Seanadóir ceist maidir leis an scála ama i leith an 20% de na hearcaigh nua. An bhfuil scála ama i gceist?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tiocfaidh mé ar ais chuig an Seanadóir. Tá sé críochnaithe anois.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Chun ceist eile a chur, cen sainmhíniú atá ar functional bilingual?
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Níl aon mhaith dul siar ar an stair. Tá an stair a bhaineann leis an rud seo úsáideach. Ba mhaith liom cúpla pointe a dhéanamh agus cúpla ceist a chur. Níl aon tomhais ag an bhfinné ar an t-éileamh atá ar sheirbhísí trí Ghaeilge. Deirim é sin toisc go mbreathnaím ar an gcleachtas atá ar dhaoine i mo Dháilcheantar féin. Is Dáilcheantar an Seanadóra é freisin. Is é an nós atá acu ná déileáil i nGaeilge leis an Roinn Cultúir, Oidhreachta agus Gaeltachta agus Údarás na Gaeltachta amháin. Déileáileann siad leis gach eagraíocht eile i mBéarla mura bhfuil a fhios acu go sonrach go bhfuil Gaeilge ag an té a bhfuileadar ag caint leis nó léi. Mar sin, níl a fhios ag an tUasal Ó Caigne cén t-éileamh atá ann. Bheadh sé spéisiúil fiafraigh den Roinn Cultúir, Oidhreachta agus Gaeltachta sna Forbacha faoin líon daoine a théann chuici ag labhairt Béarla, maidir le gnóthaí tithíochta Gaeilge mar shampla. Bheadh sé spéisiúil dul ansin ag an gcomhairle contae agus fiafraigh de cé mhéad de na daoine ceannann céanna a labhraíonn Béarla leis, mar tá a fhios ag chuile duine nach bhfaighfí an tseirbhís i nGaeilge.
Tá oifig Dháilcheantair agam agus is í an Ghaeilge an lingua francataobh istigh den oifig. Nuair atáimid ag caint eadrainn féin, is í an Ghaeilge a úsáideann muid. Glacaimid le bealach na héascaíochta mar chaithfimid an obair a dhéanamh. Mar sin, má tá a fhios againn go bhfuil seirbhís ar fáil trí Ghaeilge, úsáideann muid Gaeilge. Úsáideann muid Gaeilge go mormhór leo siúd a thagann chugainn agus a bhfuil fadhb acu a bhaineann le Gaeilge freisin. Úsáideann muid Béarla leis an gcuid eile mar, mura ndéanaimid é sin, ní gheobhaimid freagraí go brách.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Níl mé ag cur locht ar an Teacht ar chor ar bith, ach chun é a shimpliú beagáinín-----
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Tá mé ag iarraidh rud a mhíniú mar tá súil agam go mbeidh na finnéithe ag foghlaim anseo inniu agus go dtabharfaidh siad cuid den rud seo ar ais leo. Cloisimid an t-am ar fad an tseadráil nach bhfuil aon éileamh ar an nGaeilge. Níl aon éileamh uirthi because cén fáth a mbacfadh daoine? Cén fáth a chuirfeadh duine a chuid anáile amú ag cur oilc ar dhaoine nuair atá Béarla ag an gcéad duine agus nach bhfuil Gaeilge ag an gceann eile? Geallaim do na finnéithe, agus déarfainn go mbeadh an taithí céanna ag an mbeirt eile i mo Dháilcheantar, nuair atá seirbhís dhátheangach ar fáil tá go leor éileamh ann ar sheirbhísí trí Ghaeilge. Tá éileamh ann i m'oifig, mar shampla, mar tá a fhios ag daoine go maith gurb í an Ghaeilge an lingua francaansin. Níl aon fhadhb ag na Béarlóirí. Úsáideann siad Béarla agus úsáideann muid Béarla ar ais. Ceapaim go bhfuil sé tábhachtach an pointe sin a dhéanamh. Is é an chéad leithscéal atá ag an Státchóras i gcónaí ná nach bhfuil aon éileamh.
An bhfuil aon staidéar déanta ag an Roinn ar an gcleachtas i dtíortha eile a bhfuil dhá teanga oifigiúla acu? Mar shampla, cén staidéar atá déanta aici ar an gcleachtas i gCeanada nó fiú sa mBreatain Beag ó thaobh earcaíochta de, agus go mórmhór ó thaobh caighdeán de? An bhfuil na caighdeáin sin neamhspleách ón gcóras? De réir mar a thuig mé an finné, dúirt sé go bhfuil an tSeirbhís um Cheapacháin Phoiblí tar éis caighdeán dá cuid féin a leagan síos. An bhfuil aon dream neamhspleách ag déanamh monatóireachta air sin le cinntiú go mbeidh na daoine seo in ann oibriú chomh héasca i nGaeilge agus atá siad in ann i mBéarla? Mura mbeidh níl aon mhaith ann.
I gcomhthéacs Cheanada, bhí sé spéisiúil go raibh na postanna rangaithe i trí rannóg - na poist ina dteastódh caighdeán an chainteora dúchais ó iarrthóirí; na poist nach mbeadh an líofacht sin ag teastáil uathu; agus poist, mar shampla, doirseoirí agus mar sin de, ina dteastódh bunleibhéal na Frainicise. An bhfuil sé i gceist ag an Roinn aon rud mar sin a thabhairt isteach? Nuair a thosóidh an Roinn ag earcú daoine le Gaeilge, an mbeidh sí ag súil go mbeidh na daoine sin sáinnithe i jabanna ina mbeadh an Ghaeilge riachtanach nó an mbeidh siad in ann bogadh anonn is anall sa Státseirbhís? An mbeidh siad in ann dul isteach ar jabanna le riachtanas Gaeilge agus jabanna gan riachtanas Gaeilge le buntaiste a bhaint as arduithe céime? Mura ndéanfar é sin beidh míbhuntaiste ann don Ghaeilgeoir a thiocfadh isteach sa tseirbhís poiblí.
Is í seo mo cheist dheireanach mar tá i bhfad an iomarca anseo le socrú inniu. An bhfuil sé i gceist ag an Roinn plécháipéis shonrach a fhoilsiú i dtaobh na ceisteanna earcaíochta seo, ina mbeidh leagan amach sonrach mion ar a bhfuil i gceist aici? An mbeidh comhairliúcháin leis an bpobal agus leis an gcoiste seo maidir leis an gceist seo? Mar a dúirt mé, an rud atá caite, tá sé caite. Táimid ag caint faoin todchaí. Ní chreidim nach bhfuil na daoine ann le fostú, mar tá an oiread sin daoine ag teacht as Gaelscoileanna. Caithfidh an caighdeán a bheith ceart. Ní úsáidtear an tseirbhís má tá sé den dara grád.
Ba mhaith liom mo leithscéal a dhéanamh ach caithfidh mé fágáil. Tá mé ag dul amach go mBaile Munna. Tá gnóthaí le déanamh le scoil lán-Gaelach amuigh anseo trathnóna inniu. Bhí sé beartaithe an tseachtain seo caite.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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An bhfuil an Teachta ag fanacht ar na freagraí?
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Fanfaidh mé ar na freagraí ach beidh orm fágáil ag a 6 p.m. Ba mhaith liom mo leithscéal a dhéanamh roimh ré.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Ceart go leor. Tá cúig cheist ansin, ag tosnú le cén t-éileamh atá ann. Chuala na finnéithe na ceisteanna.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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No, it was on demand. Cén t-éileamh atá ann?
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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How is demand measured?
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Cén chaoi a thomhaiseann siad an t-éileamh atá ar sheirbhísí trí Ghaeilge?
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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An bhfuil rud éigin leagtha síos go lárnach ag an Roinn?
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is é sin an áit a theipeann an córas ar fad ar ndóigh.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Níl aon chleachtas caighdeánach ceart ar ard-chaighdéan atá próifílithe------
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Ní hin an cheist a chuir mé. It was not the question. An cheist a chur mé ná cén chaoi a thomhaiseann siad éileamh?
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas le Mr. Ó Miacháin.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Gabh mo leithscéal. Ag dul leis sin, tá sé ráite sa ráiteas tosaigh. Deimhnítear go bhfuil an Roinn "ag déanamh monatóireachta ar leibhéal an éilimh ar [a] seirbhísí trí mheán na Gaeilge"-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Alright.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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An bhfuil na cluasáin ag obair arís?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I ráiteas tosaigh na Roinne, deimhnítear go bhfuil an Roinn "ag déanamh monatóireachta ar leibhéal an éilimh ar [a] seirbhísí trí mheán na Gaeilge agus ar líon"-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Right, laistigh den Roinn féin.
Mr. Nicolas Ó Miacháin:
My understanding was that we were here on behalf of our Department, but also on behalf of the Civil Service in terms of the Minister's remit. The monitoring refers to our own Department.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Cén chaoi a dhéanann an Roinn monatóireacht ar éileamh? Ní smaoineoinn go brách glaoch a chur ar an Roinn agus mo chuid ama a chur amú ag iarraidh labhairt i nGaeilge le bunáit na ndaoine atá aici. Cén fáth go m'bfhiú? Ach an oiread le Comhairle Contae na Gaillimhe. Glaotar agus deirtear "an bhfuil tú ar iarraidh seirbhís i nGaeilge nó trí Bhéarla". Brútar an cnaipe don Ghaeilge agus deirtear nach bhfuil duine le Gaeilge ann, agus ba chóir glaoch ar ais amárach, fiú má táthar ag iarraidh freagra inniu.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is é sin an freagra anois.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Ach táim ag iarraidh freagra ceiste a fháil amach anois. Cén chaoi a dhéanann an Roinn monatóireacht ar éileamh?
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is ea.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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But-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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An ligfidh an Teachta don fhinné freagra a thabhairt? Tiocfaidh mé ar ais chuige.
Mr. Nicolas Ó Miacháin:
I am not certain as to precisely how it is measured. We know what the costs of translations were, for example, over the last number of years. We have taken a number of steps to ensure that there is a degree of proficiency, but my understanding is that - and this may be to the Deputy's question - one might not ask if one does not expect an answer as Gaeilge. It would appear that the requirement for Irish is quite low. For example, we received one phone call and one email in Irish in the last 12 months. It would appear from some of the statistics in front of me that the demand for Irish in the Department is actually very low.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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An rud atá mise ag iarraidh dul chuige ná seo. Ní smaoineoinn glaoch a chur. Chuirfinn litreacha agus chuirfinn ceisteanna parlaiminte síos i nGaeilge, mar tá a fhios agam go gcaithfear iad a fhreagairt laistigh de cheithre lá i nGaeilge má chuirim síos iad i nGaeilge. Mar a tharlaíonn, tá ceann ag dul chuig an Roinn an tseachtain seo chugainn. Ach maidir le gnó pearsanta, má théim isteach ar suíomh idirlíne na Roinne, ní deirtear liom "má tá tú ag iarraidh seirbhís den scoth i nGaeilge glaoigh ar...". Ní dtugtar ainm agus seoladh.
Cuirfidh mé an cheist ar an bhfinné ar bhealach eile. Má glaoim ar a Roinn ag iarraidh gnó a dhéanamh trí Ghaeilge, cén seans atá agam an gnó sin a dhéanamh?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
I am not aware of any difficulty any individual has had doing business with the Department in Irish. There are people in the Department who are proficient in Irish. It has not directly crossed my radar but as I understand it, where proficiency was required to deal with issues raised with the Department, the appropriate skill set was available.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is é mo thaithí-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Gabh mo leithscéal, a Theachta. Tabharfaidh mé deis duit, ach bhí cúpla ceisteanna le fhreagairt.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is í seo an cheist is tábhachtaí. Cuirfidh mé an chuid eile ar ceal. Tá ceann amháin eile ag teastáil uaim. Bhí mise i m'oifig le gairid agus bhí fear nach bhfuil mórán Béarla aige ann. Bhí muid ag iarraidh plé leis an Roinn Talmhaíochta, Bia agus Mara ach d'fhéadfadh go mbeadh an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe a bheith i gceist. Glaoigh muid uirthi. Ghabh mise ar an bhfón agus labhair mé Béarla. Dúirt an bhean an-deas a bhí ag cuidiú liom gur caithfidh sí labhairt leis an dté a raibh mé ag labhairt ar a shon. Bhí sí ag iarraidh deimhniú go raibh sé ag iarraidh go gcuirfinn an cheist. Dúirt mise léi go raibh fadbh bheag amháin, ba í sin nach bhfuil mórán Béarla ag an bhfear seo agus go mbeadh uirthi duine éigin le Gaeilge a fháil le labhairt leis. Ní raibh sí in ann. Ba cheart go mbeadh duine le Gaeilge ar fáil in oifig a bhfuil go leor den phobal ag plé leis. Ní bhacann muid leis. Ní bhacann pobal na Gaeltachta leis. Tá a leithéid de duine ann atá i bhfad níos fearr i nGaeilge na i mBéarla agus ní bhacann siad leis. Úsáideann siad an Béarla briste atá acu. Ní thuigim cén chaoi a thomhaistear éileamh. An dtuigeann an finné? Cén chaoi a thomhaiseann an Roinn an t-éileamh?
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am also talking about demand in Mr. Ó Caigne's Department. If I call it, which I have done in the past-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Leanfaimid ar aghaidh i nGaeilge.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Leanfaidh mé ar aghaidh i mo rogha de teanga. That is my privilege as a Member of the House.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tá. Sin é do privilege.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I want to make the point. If I have to turn to English to make that point, it shows us the problem we face. This is what we face every day. If one tries to do business in Irish, one is at a massive disadvantage in trying to get answers and information. I want to know how the Department measures demand because there could be a pent-up demand if the services were of high quality.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking about the witnesses' Department.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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This is the last time I will ask this question. How does the Department assess if there is potential demand? What international best practices are used to ensure that, in a society that is largely either monolingual with English or bilingual with Irish and English, those who would prefer to do business in Irish can do so easily and to the same standard? I am saying that there is a massive pent-up demand. All five members of the committee here can testify to the fact that, where there is a parallel English language system operating to that for the Irish language, to get equal service to everybody else-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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A Theachta, ba mhaith liom-----
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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----the Gaeltacht people and Irish speakers will do their business in English.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Lig mé don Teachta cúpla ceist a chur.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The Chair is very good.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tá muid ag leanacht ar aghaidh i mBéarla agus níl mé sásta.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Tá, ach tá mé ag iarraidh-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Chuala mé an Teachta agus is é sin a phribhléid agus is é sin an fáth a bhfuil cluasáin againn.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It highlights the problem we face-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tá a fhios agam.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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-----every day of the week.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tá a fhios agam é sin ach-----
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We do not get answers because people do not understand us.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tá freagra faighte againn go bhfuil an t-éileamh thar a bheith íseal agus ní bhfuair an Roinn ach ceist nó dhó laistigh de bhliain. Tá sé soiléirithe ag an bhfinné. B'fhéidir nach bhfuil muid sásta leis an bhfreagra ach tá sé ráite go bhfuil an t-éileamh thar a bheith íseal. Chuir an Teachta ceist iontach faoin mbealach ina thomhaiseann an Roinn an t-éileamh agus ní raibh na finnéithe in ann é a fhreagairt.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Tá ceist amháin eile agam.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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No. Tá caighdeán Cheanada-----
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Can I just ask one final question? Does the Department intend to publish a detailed paper laying out standard procedures to be followed if the proposed changes to the Official Languages Act are enacted? If we get the codology of the past in respect of standards, it will undermine the whole purpose of the Act. Genuinely functional bilinguals need to be brought in. On the recruitment and allocation issue in the public service, does the Department intend to publish a detailed discussion paper on how all these measures are to be implemented?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
I am not aware of any such intention. On recruitment, we are ensuring that we target the particular areas from which we are most likely to attract Irish speakers. We have reviewed a number of competitions in that respect and we think we can improve the way we try to attract people with proficiency in Irish.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Maidir leis an seisear duine laistigh den Roinn atá ainmnithe ag an bhfinné, dúradh go bhfuil seisear ann a bhfuil inniúlacht sa Ghaeilge acu. Cá bhfuil siad? Nach raibh aon duine as an seisear sin ar fáil inniu?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Cén fáth?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
I understood that the main purpose of us being here today was to talk about the wider Civil Service as opposed to our Department specifically.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Bhíomar ag iarraidh fáil amach cén dualgais atá ar an Roinn maidir leis an Státchóras uilig. Dheimhnigh na finnéithe dúinn nach bhfuil dualgas acu maidir leis na Ranna eile. Tá mise beagáinín measctha ag an bpointe sin, ní de bharr an Bhéarla agus na Gaeilge. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil na finnéithe cinnte faoi na dualgais atá orthu. Tiocfaidh mé ar ais go dtí an pointe sin faoi na dualgais áirithe atá ar an Roinn. Tá an Seanadóir O'Reilly ag iarraidh teacht isteach.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe uilig. Ar ndóigh, beidh na téamaí céanna ag dul tríd mo chuid ceisteanna. Ar dtús báire, tá cúpla ceist agam. Tá sé mar aidhm ag Bille na dteangacha oifigiúla (leasú) 2016 cinntiú go bhfuil tacaíocht éifeachtach ar fáil do dhaoine ar mian leo gnó a dhéanamh leis an Stáit trí mheán na Gaeilge. An féidir na finnéithe insint dúinn cén sórt tacaíocht go sonrach atá i gceist? An bhfuil bearta déanta nó curtha i gcrích ag an Roinn go fóill nó an bhfuil an próiseas ar siúl chun rudaí áirithe a aimsiú agus a chur i gcrích? Cé go bhfuil an Roinn Cultúir, Oidhreachta agus Gaeltachta díreach freagrach as, cad atá déanta ag Roinn na bhfinnéithe féin?
Maidir le ceannteideal 9 den Bhille, conas a rachaidh an Roinn i ngleic leis an moladh go mbeadh 20% d'earcaigh nua sa seirbhís poiblí ina gcainteoirí dhátheangacha? An mbeidh sé i bhfeidhm i ngach eagraíocht den tseirbhís poiblí i ngach grád agus i ngach rannóg nó i rannóga ar an líne thosaigh amháin? An mbeidh siad abálta gnó a dhéanamh le daoine trí mheán na Gaeilge? An mbeidh iarrthóirí in ann na scrúduithe agus na hagallaimh a dhéanamh i nGaeilge?
Maidir le ceannteideal 10 den Bhille, cén caighdeán a bheidh i gceist? Cé leis a bheidh an cúram cinneadh a dhéanamh air agus monatóireacht a dhéanamh air? Dúirt an straitéis 20 bliain don Ghaeilge i 2010, "Ní mór cláir feasachta teanga agus cláir oiliúna teanga a fhorbairt agus a neartú chun go mbeadh cion níos mó d’fhoireann na seirbhíse poiblí in ann go fírinneach feidhmiú i nGaeilge agus in ann seirbhísí a sholáthar i nGaeilge do chustaiméirí a bhíonn á n-iarraidh sin." Sa seacht mbliana ó shin, an bhfuil faic déanta i ndairíre ag Roinn na bhfinnéithe nó ag Ranna eile, nó an cur i gcéill leanúnach a bhí i gceist? An bhfuil aon iarracht dairíre i gceist anseo?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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B'fhéidir go stopfaimid ag an bpointe seo. Tiocfaidh mé díreach ar ais ag an Seanadóir.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach. Tá dhá rud beag eile agam.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Stopfaimid chun deis a thabhairt do na finnéithe. Beidh rudaí measctha suas muna stopfaidh.
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
The Government decision in 2013 was that we would seek to recruit people with proficiency in Irish through a competency and skill based model. The intention was that Departments would identify positions which required functional bilinguals in their workforce plans and we would seek to recruit such people either through promotion or through external recruitment. We would use the good offices of the Public Appointments Service in that regard. One of the supports my Department put in place with the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht was an arrangement with Gaelchultúr Teoranta which provides Irish language training support, to be drawn upon by individual Departments as they saw fit. It was not up to us to determine that. That contract covers the Civil Service and the public service and is still extant. As I said in my opening statement, it expires in 2018.
Right now the Civil Service is rolling out a new learning and development module which is centrally driven by my Department. It is designed to meet the identified demands of other Departments. Two of the 70 modules which have currently been identified relate to the Irish language and will be rolled out in the first quarter of 2018. Gaelchultúr successfully tendered to provide those modules. We are currently evaluating the standard on offer, but we expect to be able to sign off on a training programme which will provide language training for Irish speakers up to and including honours Irish standard. The training module will be available to Departments but we cannot tell them to avail of it. We can tell them that it is there and we would expect them, as part of their own training needs analysis or recruitment process, to avail of it as and when it is necessary. The approach was designed in consultation with Departments who, through a business partner process, worked with my colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to identify the whole range of skills which needed learning and development interventions, one of which was the Irish language. As I said, we are currently evaluating the standard, but the indications are that there will not be an issue with the organisation, with which we are very familiar. I expect that training intervention will be available in the first quarter of 2018.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Sin í mo cheist dheireanach. Sa fhreagra ar thug an finné dom agus ina ráiteas tosaigh, dhírigh sé aird an choiste ar chúrsaí traenála sa Ghaeltacht don Státseirbhís agus ar an 4,744 fostaí sa tseirbhís poiblí a d'fhreastal ar ranganna de chuid Ghaelchultúr Teoranta. Tá sé sin go maith, ach cad a tharlaíonn nuair a thagann na fostaithe sin ar ais chuig a láithreacha oibre? An bhfuil aon leanúnachas ann? An dtugtar aon fhíor-dheis dóibh úsáid a bhaint as a gcuid Gaeilge? An dtugtar aon spreagadh, áiseanna nó rud eile dóibh chun iad a spreagadh agus a gcuid Gaeilge a choimeád, nó nach bhfuil i gceist ach ligint dóibh dul chuig ranganna ar a rogha féin ar bhonn deonach agus sin deireadh leis? An sin deireadh leis? Is í sin mo cheist don fhinné. Ní chóir go mbeadh sé sin deireadh leis. Ba mhaith liom freagra air sin.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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An dtuigeann an finné an cheist?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
Yes, I think I do. First of all, to understand current policy, it is not the case that we provide learning and development opportunities per se. I am sorry, let me rephrase that. As it stands, the recruitment process specifically directed at proficiency in Irish is based on an identified departmental or office need, that is, we are told the organisations need those individuals. As I said, such people are recruited through competition, whether through internal promotion or through the Public Appointments Service, and their proficiency is tested to ensure they have the competency and skill for the job. We are supporting that through a learning and development initiative which has been rolling out since September in respect of other skill sets and which will roll out in respect of Irish language training in the first quarter of 2018. As I understand it, the Senators question was on the opportunities available for people who choose to learn Irish back in their Departments. I can only speak for my own Department, where there is every opportunity. For example, when we sought to identify people who would make themselves available to assist in translation, in answering telephones or indeed in assisting me in preparing for today, people had every opportunity to do so. Their roles do not necessarily require the Irish language per se. It is a case of them making themselves available or offering their expertise in circumstances where we need or have requested them.
However, it is not a prerequisite for the Gaelchultúr programme that one is to be proficient in Irish. The course is available to civil servants through their own Departments. It clearly makes sense for people who have proficiency in Irish to go on it if they wish to increase their proficiency, but there is no prohibition on individual civil servants who wish to improve their Irish language going on the Gaelchultúr programme, as and when it is approved. That is a matter for individual Departments.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Ar mhaith le haon duine eile teacht isteach?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as an eolas agus na freagraí. Tá an-chuid de na ceisteanna curtha cheana féin ach teastaíonn uaim díriú isteach ar cheannteideal 9 den Bhille maidir leis an 20% d'earcaigh nua. Ar an gcéad dul síos, cén dul chun cinn atá déanta ag an Roinn maidir leis sin? An bhfuil sí tosnaithe ar an 20% a bhaint amach nó an bhfuil sí ag feitheamh ar feadh tréimhse éigin chun é a thosnú? Feicim na figiúir a luaigh Mr. Ó Caigne cheana féin. Bhíodar íseal go leor - thart ar 2%. Mar sin, an bheadh an Roinn ag dul i ngleic leis an sprioc sin i gcomhar an 20%?
Cúpla nóiméad ó shin ina fhreagra deireanach luaigh an finné traenáil Gaolainne. Is é mo thuiscint go bhfuil an Roinn ag tabhairt tacaíocht do dhaoine maidir le traenáil Gaolainne. Is dócha go gceartóidh an finné mé má tá an míniú mícheart agam air, ach an é sin le rá go bhfuil daoine a earcú gan Ghaolainn i gcomhar postanna ina bhfuil an Gaolainn riachtanach? An é sin an scéal? An earcaítear iad agus an gcuirtear iad ar chúrsaí ina dhiadh? An bhfuil míthuiscint agam ansin? B'fhéidir go bhféadfadh Mr. Ó Caigne é sin a shoiléiriú.
Rinneadh an pointe mar gheall ar an slat tomhais go láidir. Tá sé soiléir anois nach bhfuil slat tomhais ann. Conas atá an Roinn chun dul i ngleic leis sin? Cén sórt tomhais atá in aigne a dhéanamh? Conas a dhéileáfaidh an Roinn leis an deacracht sin nuair nach bhfuil aon slat tomhais ann?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is é sin slat tomhais maidir leis an éileamh.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Is ea, maidir leis an éileamh. Tá sé ráite nach bhfuil aon slí chruinn chun an éileamh a thomhais. Tá a fhios againn anois nach bhfuil.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Conas atá an Roinn chun dul i ngleic leis an bhfadhb sin nuair atá a fhios ag an Roinn go bhfuil an fhadhb ann?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
In relation to what I think is the Deputy's first question, no one is recruited into a position unless he or she has the skill set required for the position. Where we have identified Irish as a requirement for the role, we recruit people who have proficiency in Irish. There are some roles, although not many, where we have not had sufficient proficiency expressed at the interview and, therefore, we have not been able to fill them. That is not happening. In terms of the statistics available to us, the demand for posts that require proficiency in Irish appears to be low.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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An bhfuil daoine á n-earcú go dtí na poist sin nó an bhfuil siad á bhfágaint gan iad a líonadh?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
The vast majority of positions that require proficiency in the Irish language, as identified to us, have been filled by candidates who have sufficient proficiency in Irish for the post. I am aware in a general sense of one or two posts where particularly high proficiency was required and my understanding is that we have had difficulty filling them. However, I am talking about one or two posts. That is how I understand the situation.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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An bhfuil sé sin lastigh den Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
No, across the Civil Service. Trasna na Ranna go léir. Will the Deputy remind me of his second question?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Luaigh an tUasal Ó Caigne figiúir de mhórthimpeall 2% níos luaithe maidir leis an bhfoireann atá ann. An bhfuil an Roinn tosnaithe ar an 20% nó an bhfuil an Roinn ag feitheamh le Bille nua? An bhfuil an Roinn ag díriú ar an obair cheana féin? Cén cur chuige atá ag an Roinn maidir leis an 20% sin?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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An bhfuil sé in aigne ag an Roinn feitheamh mar sin nó an bhfuil an Roinn chun díriú isteach ar an obair láithreach? Tá a fhios againn go mbeidh an t-éileamh ann. An bhfuil an Roinn chun feitheamh go dtí go gcuirfí iachall ar an Roinn nó an bhfuil an dea-thoil ann chun dul ar aghaidh agus na daoine a earcú chun dul i ngleic leis?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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An bhfuil an Roinn chun síneadh thar an áit ina bhfuil sí anois nó an bhfuil an Roinn chun feitheamh go dtí go gcuirfí iachall uirthi?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
At this point in time, we have a panel of eight executive officers ready to be assigned, so the supply is there. We also have four higher executive officers and one assistant principal officer ready to be assigned. There is no requirement at this point in time to assign those individuals to particular posts. The Civil Service is back in the recruitment business over the past two or three years. The committee will be aware of the moratorium and the various restrictions on recruitment.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Chun a bheith cruinn, an bhfuil an tUasal Ó Caigne ag rá go bhfuil ochtar oifigeach lastigh dá Roinn ar fáil nó an transna na Ranna-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Lean ar aghaidh.
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
That is the current situation. It would, therefore, appear at this point in time that supply is greater than demand. In terms of the 20%, we recognise that we are not attracting native Irish speakers to the extent that we would like and, at this stage, we have run two significant competitions. They would normally be recruited at the clerical officer and executive officer level. We have reviewed the way we run those competitions and, following the first review, we targeted media and various other outlets with which we felt Irish speakers would be familiar and increased the cadre of people who have proficiency in Irish. As we seek to embed workforce planning in the Civil Service, the next iteration will be far more targeted on schools and colleges and will try to indicate the career possibilities individuals might have as and when they graduate from school or college. That is the criticality in terms of the three year workforce plan. We need to be able to say to people what possibilities will be there in 2019, 2020 or 2021. We think that would significantly improve the uptake or the interest of people with Irish in roles in the Civil Service.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Ciallaíonn sé sin nach mbeidh an 20% á bhaint amach ar feadh i bhfad i bhfad. Braithim nach bhfuil an Roinn ag díriú ar na daoine sin a fháil anois agus roimh bhrú a bheith ann. Tuigim go bhfuil an Roinn ag díriú ar dreamanna atá ag teacht trí na coláistí agus mar sin de ach ní bhraithim go bhfuil an dea-thoil nó an fuinneamh ann chun dul amach agus na daoine a n-earcú chun a fháil níos congaraí don 20% sin. Ceartaigh mé má tá mé mícheart.
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
I do not agree that the will is not there. Our whole approach to resourcing within the Civil Service is to be as inclusive as we possibly can. We recognise that there is a challenge in that regard. The key to addressing the challenge is-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Beidh sprioc de 20% ann am éigin amach anseo. Nár chóir don Roinn a bheith ag cur breis fuinnimh faoi anois agus ag díriú ar an obair sin? Nár chóir don Roinn a bheith ag cinntiú go mbeidh an Roinn ullamh chuige in ionad, b'fhéidir, fanacht ar feadh cúpla bliain?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
I do not believe we are waiting per se. The current policy is to recruit to demand via identified skill sets as advised to us and, as it stands today, the figures indicate that we have capacity to fill positions. However, we are not getting people with proficiency in Irish who see the Civil Service as their first career option. We are competing against other career options. Anecdotally, I am aware of individuals in Gaeltacht areas where I holiday, ironically enough, who would see national school teaching as a more viable option in terms of career possibilities. We need to ensure that the Civil Service is seen as an outlet for those with proficiency in Irish to develop their skills and advance their careers. We know that we need to improve the way we market the Civil Service as an entity and there is considerable work going into that. I do not think it is a case of a lack of will.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Cad faoi an t-éileamh a thomhas? Tá sé soiléir ó phointe a rinneadh níos túisce nach bhfuil slat tomhais faoi leith ann. An bhfuil aon phlean ag an Roinn chun dul i ngleic leis an deacracht sin?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Toisc go bhfuil a fhios ag an Roinn anois nach bhfuil an t-éileamh á thomhas i gceart, conas atá an Roinn chun dul i ngleic leis sin?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Ní dúirt. Is é an rud atá i gceist agam ná go bhfuil sé soiléir ón bpointe a rinneadh níos túisce nach bhfuil an t-éileamh atá ann á thomhais i gceart. Braithimid nach bhfuil sé á thomhas i gceart. Tá daoine ann a theastaíonn uathu a ngnó a dhéanamh trí Ghaolainn ach nach ndéanann é mar nach féidir leo. Níl an t-eolas sin ag an Roinn, áfach. Muna raibh ach ríomhphost amháin agus b'fhéidir glaoch amháin anuraidh, tá sé soiléir nach bhfuil an Roinn ag feiscint ar an éileamh atá ann. Conas atá an Roinn chun dul i ngleic leis an mbearna eolais sin?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Tá sé mar a chéile ag gach Roinn.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Lig dó an freagra a thabhairt agus is féidir leis an Teachta teacht ar ais isteach.
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
In our Department, the demand for proficiency in Irish is low. Those are the statistics that are in front of me. The determination of the requirement of proficiency in Irish in other Departments is a matter for those other Departments. It is up to us, in partnership with the Public Appointments Service, to ensure that we can recruit to meet that demand and beyond due to an overarching objective of being quite inclusive. We are satisfied that we can satisfy the existing demand for proficiency in Irish subject to the one or two exceptions I mentioned earlier where a particularly high proficiency is required. I cannot say how the demand is assessed in other Departments. I have some indication of how it is assessed in our own Department which is largely by the demand for the services. I cannot speak for the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection, the Revenue Commissioners or other organisations, however. They assess their own demand via their own workforce planning forces.
Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Tá an ceart ag an fhinné i dtaca leis an remit atá ag an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe ó thaobh na Gaeilge de ach tá remit i bhfad níos leithne ar an Roinn ar ndóigh. Is é sin caiteachas poiblí agus polasaí ginearálta an Státchórais go huile is go hiomlán. Tá dhá theanga oifigiúla ag an Stát seo agus, dá bhrí sin, tá remit nó dualgas ar an Státchóras go ginearálta seirbhís sa dá theanga oifigiúla a ofráil do shaoránaigh i ngach Ranna Stáit. De réir na figiúirí os comhair an choiste inniu atá curtha ar fáil ag an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe, níl 98.4% d'fhostaithe sa Státchóras in ann an tseirbhís sin a chur ar fáil. An bhfuil sé sin maith go leor? Sin an chéad cheist.
Go háirithe ó tháinig an Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge i bhfeidhm sa bhliain 2010, táimid ag plé le cúrsaí teanga. Sin seacht mbliana ó shin. I dtaca leis na seirbhísí a chuireann an Roinn ar fáil don tír go ginearálta ó thaobh na Gaeilge de, cad atá déanta ag an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe le spriocanna na straitéise sin a bhaint amach?
Ní haontaím leis an argóint nach bhfuil an t-éileamh ann do ghnó leis an Státchóras a dhéanamh trí mheán na Gaeilge. Níl mé ag cur an locht ar na hoifigigh atá anseo inniu ach cuirtear an cúis sin chun tosaigh go minic. Níl sé ceart, áfach. An bhfaca na finnéithe riamh "Field of Dreams"? Ceann de na línte sa scannán sin ná, "If you build it, he will come." Tóg é agus tiocfaidh siad. Níl an tseirbhís ar fáil agus mar sin ní thiocfaidh siad. Cén fáth ar chuirfeadh duine scairt ar an Roinn agus iad ag iarraidh córas trí mheán na Gaeilge nuair nach bhfuil sé ar fáil? Tá an cuma air inniu nach bhfuil aon roadmap leagtha síos chun é a dhéanamh níos láidre nó an tseirbhís a thabhairt suas go dtí caighdeán ina mbeadh daoine in ann córas éifeachtach trí mheán na Gaeilge a aimsiú ón Roinn Caitheachis Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe.
Ó thaobh an sprioc de 20% mar a bhaineann sé leis an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe, cad é an réamhobair atá ar bun faoi láthair chun an sprioc sin a bhaint amach? Tá seachtar nó ochtar as 500 nó 600 fostaí sa Roinn le líofacht sa Ghaeilge acu. Cad é an réamhobair atá ar bun taobh istigh den Roinn chun an sprioc de 20% a bhaint amach?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
In a general sense, the first question was what the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is doing. Our current policy is that the determination of what Departments require in terms of proficiency in Irish is a matter for themselves. Our Department required individual Departments and offices to amend their workforce planning framework to include a section in all future workforce plans identifying posts or areas of work requiring functional bilinguals. In this context, having regard to the implementation of the Gaeltacht Act 2012, Departments were asked about particular attention to posts located in or serving Gaeltacht areas. The view at the time was, and still is, that the process would be central to ensuring future recruitment competitions to administrative grades would make sufficient provision for appointment to posts requiring functional bilinguals. The aggregate data from this process would be used to assess the demand for functional bilinguals in recruitment campaigns to the Civil Service. That demand is assessed by us and, as I said earlier, with one or two exceptions we have been able to meet it. The Senator quoted a line from a film - "If you build it, he will come." However, I cannot answer that particular question. We respond to what is identified to us as a skill requirement or a proficiency requirement across the Civil Service. The same applies in our own Department.
I would be grateful if I was reminded of the other questions.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Bhain ceann eile acu leis an straitéis 20 bliain.
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
We need to recognise that, no more than any other public service bodies, the Civil Service is coming out of a period when there was no recruitment. In the past number of years, there has therefore been a surge in recruitment. We would freely admit that we have been a lot more reactive than we would like to have been. We would like to be a lot more strategic. We have developed and are in the process of rolling out a people strategy for the Civil Service. This places a particular focus on workforce planning, not just on an annual basis but over a three year period. We want to see Departments and offices identifying what they believe will be the proficiency requirement over the rolling three years. The reason is that we think it will enhance our ability to recruit what are termed functional bilinguals. That is the term in the documentation I have seen. One of our problems is that we do not market the Civil Service as effectively as we should. We are in a better position to indicate over a three year horizon the possibilities that are available if individuals wish to have a career as Gaeilge. It is anecdotal but I am aware from my own personal experience that, for example, a lot of fluent Irish speakers see national school teaching as an option before they will even consider the Civil Service. We are trying to change that image by having a more bespoke approach to recruitment based on a rolling three year workforce plan.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tá dearmad déanta agam ar an gceist eile ag an bpointe seo. An bhfuil an Seanadóir sásta leis na freagraí?
Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Tá, go pointe. Ó thaobh an ról iomlán atá ag an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe, tá ról monatóireachta ag an Roinn maidir le caiteachas poiblí agus na seirbhísí atá ar fáil. Ceann de na seirbhísí sin atá bunaithe sa reachtaíocht ná go mbeadh seirbhís trí Ghaeilge ar fáil. Nuair nach bhfuil na Ranna Stáit in ann an tseirbhís sin a chur ar fáil, is ceist é sin go sonrach don Roinn. Táim cinnte go bhfuil díomá ar an Roinn nach bhfuil ach 1.6% den fhoireann oibre sa Státchóras in ann seirbhís a sholáthar trí mheán na Gaeilge. An bhfuil an ceart agam?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
From the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform's point of view, we only rarely provide services to the public. As I said in my opening statement, it is to other Departments etc. Obviously, we would wish that the business of those who wish to do it through Irish would be addressed through Irish by civil servants with proficiency in Irish. All I can speak to today is the demand as conveyed to us across the Civil Service and our ability to meet that demand. As I said, with one or two exceptions, we have been able to meet the demand. As to whether that should be the demand or whether the reality of that demand should be greater than that, I cannot comment.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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B'fhéidir gur féidir teacht ar an gceist seo ar bhealach difriúil ar fad ach déanfaidh mé pointe amháin ar dtús. Is é an t-iarAire, an Teachta Brendan Howlin, a d'iarr ar na Ranna ar fad measúnú a dhéanamh orthu féin ó thaobh cé mhéad duine le Gaeilge a bhí ag teastáil uathu sna Ranna. Nuair a tháinig na freagraí, bhí an líon sin an-íseal agus ní raibh aon ghlacadh ag pobal na Gaeilge leis sin. Is fiú é sin a rá. Nuair a tháinig an ghéarchéim airgeadais, thug an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe treoir do gach Ranna Stáit agus gach comhlacht poiblí nach raibh aon chead acu aon duine a fhostú. Thug an Roinn an treoir sin do gach eagraíocht Stáit agus ní raibh aon chead aon duine nua a thógaint isteach, fiú má bhí daoine ag dul ar pinsean etc. ach i gcásanna eisceachtúla.
Is cuma faoin éileamh a deir na Ranna atá acu. Má ghlactar leis an mBille seo, tá an Stáit agus an Rialtas ag rá go bhfuil riail nua anois i bhfeidhm agus go gcaithfidh an Roinn a chinntiú go bhfuil 20% de na daoine nua atá ag teacht isteach sa chóras a bheith ina nGaeilgeoirí feidhmeacha - functional Gaeilgeoirs. Dá gcaithfí daoine le míchumas nó daoine nach Éireannaigh ó bhunús iad nó daoine nach as Baile Átha Cliath iad a bheith ina 20% de na daoine ag obair sa Státseirbhís, bheadh ar an Roinn cuóta, riail nó treoir a thabhairt do gach Roinn Stáit ag rá cén chaoi a bhfuil siad chun é sin a dhéanamh. Sin í an cheist atá agamsa. Má ghlacann muid leis an mBille agus má bhíonn sé ina dlí, tá an Rialtas ag rá leis an Roinn go gcaithfidh sí a chinntiú go mbeidh duine as gach cúigear atá ag teacht isteach sa Státchóras ina nGaeilgeoirí feidhmeacha. Cén chaoi a bhfuil an Roinn chun é sin a chur i bhfeidhm? Cén plean atá ag an Roinn chun é sin a dhéanamh?
An iad na daoine a thagann isteach ag íochtar an dréimire nó a thagann isteach ag na háiteanna is ísle sa Státchóras a bheidh Gaeilge ag teastáil uathu? Sin duine as gach cúigear. Má tá post fógraithe do phríomhoifigeach, an mbeidh an Roinn ag rá go bhfuil siadsan sa chóras cheana féin? Tá na príomhoifigigh cúnta a bheidh ag cur isteach ar an jab sin ag barr an dréimire agus, mar sin, an mbeidh an Roinn ag rá nach bhfuil gá an riachtanas Gaeilge a chur i bhfeidhm ag an gceann sin nó ag leibhéil níos ísle? Cén córas a bheidh ag an Roinn le déanamh cinnte go mbeidh sé trasna na gráid ar fad ionas go mbeidh daoine le Gaeilge ag teacht isteach sna gráid éagsúla?
Dúirt na finnéithe go raibh thart ar 37,000 duine sa Stát chóras. Má thógaim buile faoi thuairim go mbeidh 1% turnover sna daoine atá ag obair sa Státseirbhís, sin 370 post a bheadh á líonadh an bhliain seo chugainn. Má roinnimid é sin - duine ar gach cúigear - táimid ag caint ar thart ar 70 duine don bhliain seo chugainn a bheadh inniúil sa Ghaeilge. An bhfuil an Roinn chun é sin a roinnt trasna gach rannóg? Má tá deich bpost le fógairt ag an Roinn Talmhaíochta, Bia agus Mara, an mbeidh an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe ag rá go bhfuil cead deich bpost a fhógairt ach go caithfidh an Roinn sin a chinntiú go mbeidh ar a laghad beirt acu sin le Gaeilge? Sin an cheist atá agamsa. Sin atáimid ag iarraidh a fháil amach. Cén treoir a thabharfaidh an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe - Ranna lárnach atá ag plé le gach duine atá fostaithe - le déanamh cinnte, má thagann muid ar ais anseo faoi ceann cúig bliana, go mbeidh na finnéithe ábalta a rá go bhfuil siad cinnte go bhfuil 20% de na daoine nua atá á fhostú ag an Stát anois inniúil sa nGaeilge? Sin an buncheist atá agam.
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
If the policy that over a particular period we are to increase the cadre of functional Irish speakers in the Civil Service to 20% becomes law, we will adjust all of our recruitment processes to achieve it. However, recruitment processes meet demand. We do not determine demand. The Public Appointments Service meets demand. For us to be able to do that, it is crucial that individual Departments and offices identify their requirement in their workforce plans. If their requirement needs to be a percentage of particular grades or whatever the case may be to comply with what might become law, we will adjust our recruitment processes to do that. To go back to the earlier point-----
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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How would the Department for Public Expenditure and Reform do it? What direction would be given?
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Therefore, it would not necessarily be just new entrants. It would be at all levels.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Sin an pointe agus sin an fáth go bhfuilimid anseo. Sin atá sna cinn Bille. Táimid ag rá go mbeidh sprioc de 20% ann agus táimid ag iarraidh a fháil amach inniu how the Department would do it. How would it get there?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
As I said, at the moment we are structured to meet demand as conveyed to us by other Departments through the workforce plan. That was the strategy put in place in 2013. We were asked to ensure, and committed to doing it, that Departments would build into their workforce planning process their requirement for functional proficiency in Irish.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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With all due respect, Mr. Ó Caigne has just turned it around. The point I was making is that, if it is Government policy that we reach the 20% figure, the Department for Public Expenditure and Reform will have to give direction to the other Departments as opposed to Departments stating what is the demand and what they are seeking.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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That is my point.
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
We will need to ensure that Departments plan in the same way as, for instance, they would in the area of disability which the Senator cited
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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How was it done in that case? How is it done?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
Disability is very complex. Many organisations may well have achieved their disability targets. There is a reluctance on people to declare that they are disabled and there are complications about running bespoke competitions for people with disabilities. Our sense is that we should encourage people with disabilities to apply for all competitions, recognising that we have an obligation to take reasonable measures to accommodate them in terms of, first, the application process and, second, in Departments if they are successful.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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How would it be achieved from the point of view of gender balance? That would be a similar idea.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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An bhfuil an Teachta Moynihan ag iarraidh teacht isteach?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Tá ceist bheag amháin agam. Nuair a thagann Roinn chuig an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe ag lorg Gaeilgeoir a h-earcú, an ceadaítear gach éileamh nó ar diúltaíodh nó ar cuireadh srian ar aon Roinn?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
We do not make a decision as to what should be the requirement of a Department. The Department identifies its requirements and we try to ensure that we are efficient in terms of our recruitment processes, which is why the principle is to aggregate the individual demands. Departments also have what are known as delegated sanctions. The position the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform adopted a number of years ago where it could prescribe what should and should not happen has been relaxed by it by delegating sanctions to Departments up to certain levels to determine what their own resources should be and the composition of those resources.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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An é sin le rá nár diúltaíodh aon éileamh agus go raibh 100% ceadaithe?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
I cannot be absolutely categorical about it because, for example, assistant secretary positions have to be approved within the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. It is therefore quite possible but I am not aware of a situation where the Department has refused a request. However, I suspect that would have more to do with money per se and the Vote process. I am speculating though. I do not know.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Maidir leis an seisear nó an seachtar atá ainmnithe laistigh den Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe, cén sórt cúraimí atá orthu? Níl a fhios agam an seisear nó seachtar atá ann. Sa fhreagra, dúirt an Roinn seachtar.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Cad iad na cúraimí atá orthu ó thaobh na Gaeilge de? Cén caighdeán atá acu? Cad iad na dualgais atá orthu maidir leis an nGaeilge?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Cén caighdeán atá ag an seachtar sin?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Sea.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Níl mé ag iarraidh daoine a ainmniú. Go ginearálta, cén sórt caighdeán atá acu?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Níl mé ag iarraidh eolas pearsanta ón fhinné. Ó thaobh na Ranna de, cén caighdeán nó cáilíochtaí atá i gceist maidir leis an seachtar atá ainmnithe?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Ní féidir liom a bheith sásta le freagra mar sin. Is é an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe an Roinn atá i gceannas agus mar fhreagra ar an gceistneoir dúradh go bhfuil seachtar le Gaeilge ann. Tá siad ainmnithe. Cén leibhéal nó cáilíochtaí atá i gceist? Cén slat tomhais atá á úsáid ag an Roinn chun cumas sa Ghaeilge laistigh den Roinn a thomhais?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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B'fhéidir go mbeidh an tUasal Ó Caigne in ann teacht ar ais chugainn chun rudaí a shoiléiriú dúinn.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Maidir leis an éileamh, tá sé ráite go mion minic anseo go bhfuil an t-éileamh thar a bheith íseal. An bhfuil an Roinn ag rá go bhfuil sé thar a bheith íseal laistigh den Roinn féin nó trasna na Ranna go léir?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
In so far as I can assess demand, we can only do it within my own Department. The indications from the statistics I have are that it is low. With regard to demand across the Civil Service, the only indicator that we would have is the requirement for the filling of posts where proficiency in Irish was an absolute requirement. Our indications are that more are available than needed to meet current demand.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Cén slat tomhais atá á úsáid ag an Roinn chun an t-éileamh lastigh den Roinn a thomhais? Cén chaoi? Tá an cheist curtha go mion minic.
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
Is the Chairman referring to the demand within the Department or the demand across the Civil Service?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I dtús báire, laistigh den Roinn. Cén slat tomhais atá i gceist? Tá sé ráite go soiléir go bhfuil an t-éileamh thar a bheith íseal. Cén chaoi a bhfuil an t-eolas sin ag an Roinn?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
I am told that we have a dedicated email address from members of the public to use when contacting the Department. My understanding is that the usage is very low. We would have issued approximately 51 press releases, of which five were translated. From the information I have, I do not believe the demand was any more than that. With the Chairman's permission, I will have to come back to the committee with the information.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tá ceist dheireanach agam. An bhfuil an straitéis 20 bliain léite ag na finnéithe? I mBéarla nó i nGaeilge?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Cad iad na dualgais atá ar an Roinn ó thaobh na straitéise seo?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Níl mé ag iarraidh aon duine a nochtú. Ní hé sin atá i gceist agam, ach tá an straitéis 20 bliain luaite go mion minic ag na comhaltaí anseo. Tháinig sé i bhfeidhm in 2010. Tá tréimhse 20 bliain i gceist. Tá seacht mbliana imithe. Chuir na Teachtaí Dála agus na Seanadóirí ceisteanna faoi cad atá déanta ag an Roinn faoin straitéis seo. An freagra a thug an tUasal Ó Caigne ná gur tháinig muid tríd tréimhse trioblóideach ó thaobh chúrsaí airgid de. Agus mise i mo Chathaoirleach, níl mé sásta leis an bhfreagra sin. De réir mar a thuigim, tá ról faoi leith ag an Roinn faoin straitéis seo. Tá ról dearfach ag an Roinn an straitéis a chur chun cinn. An bhfuil an straitéis léite ag na finnéithe? An bhfuil tuiscint acu ar an straitéis? Cén dul chun cinn atá déanta ó thaobh na freagrachtaí atá ar an Roinn faoin straitéis seo?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Sea. Tá sé agam anseo. Chuir mé ceist díreach. An bhfuil an straitéis léite ag na finnéithe? An bhfuil tuiscint ag an Roinn faoin ról faoi leith atá ag an Roinn faoin straitéis seo? Tá an straitéis i bhfeidhm ó bhí 2010 ann. Sin seacht mbliana ó shin. Mar sin, cad atá déanta ag an Roinn? Cád é an tuiscint atá ag an Roinn ar an straitéis? Cad atá foghlamtha ag an Roinn?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
The Department has developed an overarching HR strategy for the Civil Service. This speaks to the Civil Service becoming an employer of choice and the Civil Service developing a workforce for the future. Key to that is that we have robust workforce plans from which we will derive strategic recruitment plans. These will inform the Public Appointments Service's engagement in terms of all forms of recruitment, be they internal or external. This Department has put in place the mechanism by which Departments and offices can identify their requirements. From our point of view, we would work with the Public Appointments Service to ensure as best we can that the requirement is met. That is the key contribution.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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B'fhéidir gurb é an eochair ná an straitéis a léamh.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Tá dhá phointe le críochnú agam. Tá na finnéithe ag rá nach bhfuil an t-éileamh ó na Ranna Stáit an-mhór. B'fhéidir go bhfuil cuid mhaith den locht ar na Ranna Stáit chomh maith céanna. Ó thaobh an taighde a rinneamar, ó 2011 go 2017, níor iarradh ach go líonfaí 48 post le daoine a bheadh ina nGaeilgeoirí líofa. An bhfuil na figiúirí sin cruinn ó thaobh na figiúirí atá ag an Roinn féin? Ó 2011 go 2017, cé mhéad iarratais ar phoist do dhaoine a bheadh inniúil sa Ghaeilge a iarradh ar an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe a líonadh ó na Ranna ar fad? An aontaíonn na finnéithe go bunúsach leis na figiúirí sin agus nár iarradh ach go gcuirfí 48 duine le Gaeilge ar fáil i ngach Roinn Stáit? Níl ansin ach cúpla Roinn.
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
The number of clerical officers was 24 in 2015, zero in 2016, and 20 in 2017, which makes a total of 44. The number of executive officers was zero in 2015, 18 in 2016 and four in 2017, which makes a total of 22. The number of administrative officers was zero in 2015, zero in 2016 and four in 2017, which makes a total of four. The number of higher executive officers was zero in 2015, zero in 2016 and one in 2017, which makes a total of one. The number of assistant principals was zero in 2015, zero in 2016 and two in 2017, which makes a total of two. The number of principal officers across all of those years was zero. This means that a total of 73 staff members were assigned.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Tá fadhb againn. Nuair a cuireadh an ceistneoir chuig na Ranna Stát ar fad, tháinig figiúir de 48 ar ais. Caithfimid ceist a chur. Cá bhfuil an fhírinne sna figiúirí seo? Níl mé cinnte. Tá an Roinn ag rá go raibh 73 duine fostaithe sna blianta 2015, 2016 agus 2017. Dúirt na Ranna ar fad go raibh 48 duine fostaithe ó 2011 go dtí 2017. Tá ceist faoi sin. Ba mhaith liom ceist amháin eile a chur. Tá sé ráite nach bhfuil an t-éileamh ann, ach is dóigh liom go bhfuil ceist an éilimh curtha ar na daoine míchearta. Táthar ag cur na ceiste ar na daoine atá ag obair sna Ranna. An bhfuil sé i gceist gnáthdhaoine a cheistiú faoin éileamh atá i measc an phobail maidir le seirbhísí trí mheán na Gaeilge? Mar shampla, dá mbeadh an Státchóras chun seirbhísí Ranna Stáit a chur ar-líne agus daoine a iompú i dtreo an saol digiteach, déanfar taighde i measc an phobail go ginearálta faoin mhéid éilimh a bheadh ar sheirbhísí digiteacha agus cé mhéad duine a bheadh ag iarraidh fanacht le obair pháipéir, srl. An mbeadh an Roinn ábalta taighde a dhéanamh go neamhspleách le eagraíocht éigin ar an bpobal go ginearálta - gnáthshaoránaigh na tíre - ar an éileamh a bheadh ann dá mbeadh seirbhísí trí Ghaeilge le fáil sna Ranna éagsúla? An bhfuil aon taighde neamhspleách déanta ar an éileamh i measc an phobal, sa mhéid is go mbeadh daoine sásta an tseirbhís Gaeilge a úsáid? Nílim ag caint faoin mhéid atá á rá ag na Ranna Stáit, na príomhoifigigh nó na daoine atá fostaithe sna Ranna. Tá mé ag caint faoin mhéid atá á rá ag an pobal féin. An mbeadh an Roinn sásta market research ceart, taighde eolaíoch agus neamhspleách, ar an éileamh i measc an phobail ar sheirbhísí trí Ghaeilge ón Státchóras a dhéanamh?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
It is possible, although I am not suggesting this is the case, that internal promotions within Departments would show a difference between the actual posts notified to the Public Appointments Service and what actually happened in those Departments. That could explain the difference. I am not suggesting that it definitely does.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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To be clear, the figures provided today are much higher than those we got from the Department.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I know that answer. We have heard it. I am asking whether the Department could do research to assess the real demand from people and citizens, as opposed to-----
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
I will explain what the Department is doing. We know we are not getting through to the market. We believe we could be far more confident of recruiting Irish speakers. There are a number of reasons for that. We are not getting through to the schools and colleges in sufficient time to try to create a sense of opportunity when they graduate. The Irish language is one of many areas in which this applies. We are probably a little too conservative, or were until recently, in our use of social media to try to appeal to younger people, in particular. We have taken a number of initiatives based on research within our own people. It is focused on recruitment. I appreciate that the Senator has asked a wider question that relates to assessing the extent to which the public would avail of services if they were made available through Irish. I can take the question back to the Department.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Are there examples of the Department doing that type of research when other policies have been changed? When there was a move to using digital or online services, for example, did the Department conduct research among the populace?
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I know it has not been done in relation to the Irish language. I am asking whether there are examples of similar research being done to gauge the potential demand for a change of-----
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
I cannot comment on what my colleague, the chief information officer, is doing at the moment with regard to onegov.ie, etc. I am not certain of the extent to which she might be in a better position to answer the Senator's question. I would be winging it, to be blunt, if I tried to answer it.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I will put it to Mr. Ó Caigne as a suggestion. I did some market research in a previous job. If one wants to gauge the need for a service, one engages a company to take a sample of the population and ask a number of questions about the types of services people would like to use. Potentially, one such question could be "would you use a service as Gaeilge if it was available?". That would be a much more accurate measure of demand than asking the Departments to self-refer, as such.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Ní mór dom a rá nach bhfuil mé sásta go bhfuil daoine ag úsáid an Béarla ag an gcoiste Gaeilge. Tá a fhios againn go bhfuil an Ghaeilge fao bhrú ar chuile leibhéal. Anois tá comhchoiste na Gaeilge ag díriú isteach ar Bhéarla arís. Iarraim ar na finnéithe rud amháin eile a shoiléiriú maidir le daoine atá fostaithe. An gcuireann an tSeirbhís um Cheapacháin Phoiblí an cheist maidir le cumas sa Ghaeilge le linn an agallaimh nó tar éis an phróisis nuair atá na daoine fostaithe?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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An gcuireann an tSeirbhís um Cheapacháin Phoiblí an cheist sin nuair atá na daoine fostaithe, le linn an agallaimh, nó i gcomhthéacs an iarratais?
Ms Margaret McCabe:
Tuigim an cheist. We ask on the application form if people are interested in working through Irish. When we go through the process with them, they are interviewed in Irish and given an Irish test as well to check their competency. This means that if we are putting somebody into a post, we know at the outset that they have the language.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Rinne mé dearmad fáilte a chur roimh na hoifigigh eile atá i láthair. Bhí siad ina shuí san Áiléar Poiblí níos luaithe. Nach raibh aon duine le Gaeilge sa Roinn a raibh in ann teacht anseo inniu?
Mr. Daithí Ó Caigne:
To be honest, I did not think of asking. Maybe it was our mistake, but we felt that most of the questions would relate to the wider Civil Service. I cannot say for certain that nobody was available today. We did not seek to ask for an Irish speaker.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Ní thuigim é sin. Is coiste Gaeilge é seo. Mar atá ráite agam, táimid ag caint faoin ról tábhachtach atá ag an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe ó thaobh an Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn sna Ranna go léir. Nílim chun é sin a rá arís. Gabhaim buíochas leis na h-oifigigh a bhí i láthair. Ní raibh sé éasca dóibh ná dúinn an cruinniú a láimhseáil sa chaoi seo. Lé cúnamh Dé, tá tús curtha le próiseas nua inniu. B'fhéidir go dtosóidh díospóireacht ionraic freisin maidir leis an nGaeilge agus an caoi inar féidir linn obair as lámha a chéile chun an nGaeilge a chur chun cinn.