Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Tá súil agam go bhfuil cóip de na grúpaí nua ag gach éinne. Muna bhfuil, tá cóip ar fáil in aice leis an doras. Tá a lán leasuithe le déanamh againn agus tá súil agam go gcloífidh gach duine leis an ábhar agus go mbeidh siad cruinn agus gearr. Tosnóimid díreach mar tá os cionn 160 moltaí le cur. Ar aghaidh linn mar sin. Táimid ag tosú le alt 6, leasú Uimh. 5.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 5:

In page 8, between lines 29 and 30, to insert the following:

" "Joint Oireachtas Committee" means Joint Oireachtas Committee of the Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht;".

Tá an ceart ag an gCathaoirleach, b'fhiú dúinn a bheith chomh beacht agus is féidir agus b'fhiú dúinn cloí go teoranta leis na leasuithe chomh maith agus is féidir chun gur féidir linn dul tríd oiread den gnó agus is féidir. Bheadh sin ciallmhar.

Baineann leasú Uimh.5 leis na mínithe nó na definitions. Níl a fhios agam cén dearcadh atá ag an Aire Stáit ar seo, ach déanann an leasú seo iarracht míniú a chur leis an mBille go gciallaíonn "Comhchoiste Oireachtais" an "Comhchoiste Oireachtais um Comhshaol, Cultúr agus Gaeltacht" agus gur sin an coiste a bheidh ag plé le seo. An mbeadh an tAire Stáit sásta glacadh le sin?

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Ar dtús, ba mhaith liom soiléiriú a dhéanamh ar phointe a thóg an Seanadóir Barrett an tseachtain seo caite agus a dheimhniú don Teach go bhfuil deimhnithe ag Oifig an Ard-Aighne nach bhfuil aon ghá tagairt a dhéanamh don Acht um Údarás na Gaeltachta 2010, mar tá sin clúdaithe faoi Chuid 4 de Acht Údarás na Gaeltachta 1979. Bhí beagáinín díospóireachta againn an lá eile faoi sin, ach tá sé deimhnithe anois nach bhfuil gá le aon leasú.

Maidir leis an leasú go ndéanfaidh an tAire comhaltaí a cheapadh don údarás i ndiaidh na gceapacháin a fhógairt go poiblí agus comhairle a ghlacadh ón Comhchoiste Oireachtais ar oidhreacht, oideachas agus Gaeltacht, tá sé fógra poiblí a dhéanamh go han luath chun iarratais a lorg ó dhaoine a bhfuil suim acu a bheith curtha san áireamh i gcóir ceapachán. Is é atá sa Bhille ná go gceapfaidh an tAire seachtar gcomhalta agus go gceapfaidh sé cúigear comhalta eile, ach ainmniúcháin cuí a bheith faighte ó na comhairlí contae éagsúla. Tá foráil sa Bhille fosta, nach gceapfaidh an t-Aire duine chun an údarás munar deimhin leis go bhfuil an taithí agus an cumas cuí aige nó aici, agus cumas chun feidhmeanna an údaráis a chomhlíonadh tré mheán na Gaeilge san áireamh chomh maith. Ciallaíonn sin go mbeidh an módh ceapacháin seo foscailte, trédhearcach agus i gcomhair leis an tslí atá ceapacháin do bhoird Stáit á ndéanamh ag an Rialtas. Beidh, ar ndóigh, ar chathaoirleach nua an údaráis dul os comhair chomhchoiste Oireachtais faoi réir ghnáth nósmhaireacht an Rialtais.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Tuigeann an t-Aire Stáit caidé atá i gceist anseo. Táimid ag iarraidh an míniú a chur isteach de bhrí go mbeimid, níos maille sa Bhille, ag iarraidh go mbéadh ról ag comhchoiste an Oireachtais tar éis na fógartha poiblí, agus níl an coiste ainmnithe sa Bhille.

Muna bhfuil an t-Aire toilteanach dul ar aghaidh le toghchán de chuid an údaráis, agus sin an chéad rogha a bhéadh againn, molaimid go mbéadh, ar a laghad, seachtar tofa. I dtaca leis an cheathrar eile, mholfaimís go bhfógrófaí na postanna ar publicjobs.ie, go dtiocfadh le daoine cur isteach ar na postanna agus ansin go mbéadh ról ag an chomhchoiste Oireachtais na daoine sin a chur faoi agallamh, mar a rinneadh do bhord TG4 agus do bhord RTE chomh maith. Dá bhrí sin, tá sé fíor-thábhachtach go mbéadh míniú tugtha sa Bhille cén choiste a mbéadh an dualgas air. Tá sé tábhachtach go mbéadh an coiste Oireachtais a mbéadh an dualgas air, agus an dualgas céanna ar an Aire a bhfuil Údaras na Gaeltachta faoina chúram, ainmnithe istigh sa chuid seo den Bhille

Tá dhá fháth len é a chur isteach ansin. Níl a fhios agam an dearcadh atá ag an Aire Stáit i dtaobh na ndaoine a bhéas le ceapadh ar an bhord. Sa Rialtas roimhe seo, thug an t-Aire, Éamonn Ryan, dóigh úr isteach le daoine a thogha ar bhoird, agus bhí sé sin ceart. Bhí go leor daoine ag tabhairt amach ag an am. Bhí an Fhreasúra ag an am, Fine Gael agus an Lucht Oibre, ag tabhairt amach go raibh barraíocht ceapachán á dhéanamh ag Airí ag an am, agus aontaím leis sin gan aon deacracht. Ar an lámh eile de, tá i bhfad níos mó ceapachán déanta ar bhoird Stáit anois.

Thabharfadh an leasú seo ról sonrach don Aire Stáit agus chosnódh sé an t-Aire, cibé Aire a bhéadh ann ag an am. Ag an am gcéanna chruthódh sé córas chun na daoine is oilte agus is oiliúnaí don phost a bheith ceaptha tré chóras trédhearcach, is é sin coiste an Oireachtais.

D'oibrigh sé go maith nuair a bhí mo chomhleacaí anseo, an Seanadóir Labhras Ó Murchú, ina bhall den chomhchoiste dheireannach. Bhí baint ag an Aire Stáit féin, tuigim, leis an comhcoiste deireannach nuair a ceapadh na daoine ar bhord TG4 nó ar bhord RTE. Ba dtiocfadh gurb é an comhchoiste curmarsáide a bhí ag plé leis sin.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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An coiste cumarsáide a bhí ann.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Ba dtiocfadh go bhfuil mé mícheart air sin. Tá cuimhne agam go raibh an próiseas ansin. Bhí fo-choiste den chomhchoiste ann leis na hagallaimh sin a chur ar bun, agus d'oibrigh an córas iontach maith. Má bhí sé ag oibriú fá choinne na ceapacháin do bhord TG4 gus do bhord RTE ní fheicimse cén fáth a rachadh an t-Aire Stáit síos bóthar eile.

Caithfidh mé a rá go mbeidh mé ag brú an leasaithe seo muna ghlacann an t-Aire Stáit leis.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim fáilte ar ais roimh an Aire Stáit. Cuireann a bhfuil ráite ag an Aire Stáit go dtí seo, maidir leis an bpróiseas daonlathach ins na Tithe seo, beagáinín imní orm. Ó thaobh an tsoiléiriú atá á lorg ag Fianna Fáil maidir leis an gceist seo, níl aon locht againn per se go ndéanfaí soiléiriu ar cén chomhchoiste atá i gceist, ach tá an t-Aire Stáit féin tar éis a rá go bhfuil sé i gceist aige an próiseas a thosú maidir le daoine a cheapadh ar bhord Údarás na Gaeltachta tríd an bpróiseas ceapacháin poibli. Tá Sinn Féin go láidir i gcoinne an mholadh sin mar go bhfuilimid i gcoinne deireadh a chur leis na toghcháín do bhord Údarás na Gaeltachta.

Cuireann sí iontas orm go bhfuil an t-Aire Stáit ag déanamh a leithéid de ráiteas ag tús na díospóireachta inniu, ar Chéim an Choiste den Bhille, nuair nach bhfuil an Bille bailithe tríd an Teach seo nó tríd an Dáil agus nuair nach bhfuil sé sínithe ag an Uachtarán. Beag beann ar sin, tá an t-Aire Stáit ag rá go bhfuil sé ag dul ar aghaidh leis an bpróiseas ar aon chuma.

Tá leasaithe thíos ag Sinn Féin, agus tá súil agam go mbeidh am againn dul chomh fada leo, a chuireann in éadan an mholadh go bhfaighfí deireadh le toghchán Údarás na Gaeltachta. Ní léir go bhfuil sábhailt mhór le déanamh agus tá moltaí eile á dhéanamh ag Sinn Féin agus ag go leor dreamanna eile taobh amuigh den Seomra seo, na heagrais Gaeilge agus mar sin de agus, fiú, baill de pháirtí an Aire Stáit féin ina measc. Ritheadh rún ag Comhairle Chontae na Gaillimhe Dé Luain seo caite ag rá gur cheart leanúint ar aghaidh le toghcháin Údarás na Gaeltachta.

Ní léir dom go bhfuil tacaíocht don mholadh go gcuirfear deireadh le toghcháin Údarás na Gaeltachta. Dá bhrí sin, ní ghlacaim leis an bpointe a rinne an t-Aire Stáit, go bhfuil sé i gceist aige leanacht ar aghaidh leis na ceapacháin tríd an bpróiseas poiblí sin. Tiocfaimid chuige sin ar ball beag, tá mé cinnte.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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Cuirim fáilte ar ais roimh an Aire Stáit. Tá stádas faoi leith bainte amach ag comhchoistí an Oireachtais, agus is maith an rud go bhfuil sé sin ag tarlú. Nuair a bhí Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge á cur le chéile tháinig na heagrais uilig isteach chun ceist na Gaeilge a plé agus chuaigh an comhchoiste chomh fada leis an nGaeltacht chun bualadh le breis agus 30 eagras freisin. Taispeánann sé sin an stádas atá an an gcomhchoiste.

Maidir leis na baill, ní dóigh liom go bhfuil sé i gceist cigireacht a dhéanamh orthu, ach bhéadh sé cabhrach dóibh féin go mbéadh orthu machnamh a dhéanamh ar an ról nua a bhéadh acu. Chabhródh sé le neart na reachtaíochta dá mbéadh orthu teacht isteach agus cúrsaí a phlé go hoscailte agus go poiblí. B'fhéidir go mbéadh suim ag na meáin cumarsáide ansin chomh maith.

Nuair a bhí stiurthóir á cheapadh ar an gCeoláras Náisiúnta, tháinig sé os comhair an choiste chéanna agus bhí seans againn cúrsaí a phlé leis. Déarfainn gur thugamar cabhair dó, mar thosaíomar ag caint faoi chiste an cheolárais, airgead a bhailiú, urraíocht agus rudaí den tsaghas sin. Chabhraigh sé sin go mór agus déarfainn go gcabhródh sé dá mb'fhéidir linn cur leis an leasú seo agus leis na smaointi atá taobh thiar de.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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I would like to respond, briefly, to what the Minister of State said about the views I expressed last week. I thank the Minister of State for that and he is welcome to the Seanad. Before this debate began, we had been saying two Gaeltacht counties, his own and County Meath, had performed splendidly at the weekend. A good atmosphere has been set for the debate.

My points related to section 5. I asked why the Údarás na Gaeltachta (Amendment) Act 2010 is not referred to in the Schedule. There is also the Údarás na Gaeltachta (Amendment) (No.2) Act 1999, which refers to the evaluation committee and the regional committees. Contrary to what the Attorney General said, my legal advice is that a Bill should list all the related legislation affected by it in the Schedule.

It would certainly help parliamentarians to know where we are coming from. When I dug through the previous legislation which is not mentioned in the Schedule, I found that a total U-turn is being attempted, virtually in secrecy because of it not being referred to in the documentation given to Members. Less than two years ago, the Fine Gael Party, including the Minister of State, strongly opposed a two year delay in elections. Now they are choosing a substitute for elections. I can quote what the Minister of State said at that time, and I believed him then, but I do not know what has happened to convert the Fine Gael Party away from the democratic system towards an appointments system.

The time limit, which the Attorney General said does not matter, would still allow us to have democratic elections before 30 September, which is what the 2010 Act said. I would not like us to slip into discussing various ways of nomination and abolishing democratic elections so casually, especially as the Minister of State spoke so strongly in 2010. Senator Buttimer also spoke strongly against deferring the elections and Fine Gael Senators voted against it at that time. If the deferment of democracy by Fianna Fáil two years ago was anathema to the Minister, why is the ending of democracy now his policy? People have said to me that if we were doing this to Travellers, The Irish Times and RTE would be outraged. This is an incredible thing to do to Gaelic speakers. They are being deprived of their language rights. I agree with the Minister of State that regardless of who is appointed, they will not be democratically elected. It may be implicit in this section that those to be appointed will be nice people who have PhDs in Irish but I do not regard that as a substitute for allowing people to be democratically elected, as advocated previously by the Minister of State and the Fine Gael Party in this House. Fianna Fáil was castigated for delaying democracy for two years because it was a bad thing, but we are now being asked to abandon democracy altogether. I will not do that. It is crucial for the survival of our language that it has spoken heirs. We must do nothing to undermine the rights of those heirs.

The Minister of State will be aware that a representative of the Orange Order addressed this House yesterday. He wants the rights of his people to be vindicated. Equally, we should vindicate the rights of Irish language speakers, rather than taking away their voting rights. I believe, on the basis of my reading of the Doherty decision, that those rights are being infringed. The Minister of State will recall the case in question, which was taken when the previous Government postponed the holding of a by-election in his constituency. We have obligations under the Convention on Human Rights. The Minister, Deputy Shatter, is there to vindicate them. We have signed up to international agreements on language rights. It should mean more than the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade getting an extra €400 to buy a nice suit for the person signing an agreement. It is actually supposed to mean something. The speakers of our minority language have language rights, just as the speakers of minority languages in Spain do. If the successors of General Franco were attempting to do to the Basque Country what we are doing to Gaeltacht areas, we would be protesting about it. I ask that we do not slide so readily into a debate on the kind of people we want to replace the democrats.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear. Tá an ceart ar fad ag an Seanadóir.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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The Minister of State was the great defender of democracy two years ago. If he examines the voting lists, he will see that all of his Fine Gael colleagues in this House and the other House supported these democratic rights and were most reluctant to delay them for two years. Now they are being abolished entirely, which is a shame.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I suggest this section of the Bill has exercised the House a little more than the Minister of State might have anticipated. It allows me to draw the attention of the House to an article that appeared in yesterday's The Irish Times. The article was written by Donncha Ó hÉallaithe, who worked until recently as a maths lecturer at Galway-Mayo Institute of Technology. Over the last ten years, he has conducted independent research into the use of Irish in Gaeltacht and non-Gaeltacht areas. I am not sure whether the Minister of State is familiar with the article, in which Mr. Ó hÉallaithe makes a number of interesting points. I would certainly commend it to him and to his officials. In the section of the article referring to the reasons the Government is not going ahead with the Údarás na Gaeltachta elections, Mr. Ó hÉallaithe notes that "the reason advanced for abolishing direct elections to Údarás na Gaeltachta, under the terms of this Bill, is to save some money". I think the Minister of State has made it clear from the outset that this is what this is about. The article continues:

The irony is that the Údarás elections cost much more than they should because of the failure of the Government to redraw the Gaeltacht boundaries. As well as that, the Government continues to pay a Gaeltacht allowance of €3,000 per annum to many teachers who happen to work in official Gaeltacht areas which are no more Irish-speaking than Clondalkin or Carlow. More realistic boundaries for the Gaeltacht would save money for the Government. More importantly, they would allow the language planning process being promoted in this Bill to concentrate efforts and resources on those few areas in which Irish has managed to survive as a community language for the last 2,000 years, and allow the promotion of Irish language networks in urban areas outside the traditional Gaeltacht.

We will have an opportunity to tease out some of the other points made by Mr. Ó hÉallaithe with the Minister of State in due course. I certainly think there is an obligation on the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht to consider this alternative approach. If it is about saving money and nothing else, surely the redrawing of the boundaries is an obvious answer. According to other elements of the argument Mr. Ó hÉallaithe makes regarding this legislation, there will be no change to the status quo in the absence of the drawing up of a language plan, which is another issue entirely. I do not want to stray away from section 5. I suggest that the specific points made by Mr. Ó hÉallaithe deserve an answer. Does the Minister of State not agree?

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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The argument highlighted by Senator Mooney is not really relevant to amendment No. 5. Some of the amendments that have been tabled relate specifically to the borders of Gaeltacht areas. Perhaps we should concentrate on the amendment at hand at this stage and wait until we get to those amendments before we discuss the issue of democracy or lack of democracy within the proposed board. Ba mhaith liom a rá gurb é sin an fáth go bhfuilimid ag tabhairt deis do na comhairlí contae to nominate five of the 12 members of the board. I have every confidence that the members of the local authorities will be very responsible and practical when they are choosing their representatives on these boards. Some specifications are laid down in that regard. We will probably get to them when we consider other amendments. The board will consist of five members nominated by local authorities and seven appointed by the Minister.

Things have changed. The economic situation has changed. Others have changed. We know there are difficulties in the Gaeltacht. I want the board to be well balanced, to have a democratic input and to have certain expertise. The new údarás will not focus on industrial development alone. It will also focus on availing of the last chance we have to save the language itself in Gaeltacht areas. That is why I want to have a well-balanced board that includes specialists, experts and linguists and has a democratic input, rather than an ordinary board with some expertise. That is the balance I am seeking. I am simply trying to save the Gaeltacht. Maidir leis an rud a dúirt an Seanadóir Barrett, all I can say is that we have received the advice of the Attorney General that what we are doing is covered by the Údarás na Gaeltachta Act 1979. I understand it will be covered until 30 September next. Níl sé i gceist agam glacadh leis an leasú seo.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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I would like to remind the Minister of State of some comments he made in the Dáil as an Opposition Deputy. Speaking on 6 July 2010 about the Bill that provided for the two-year delay, he said "ní féidir liom fáilte a chur roimh an mBille". I agree with the position he took at that time. He continued:

Is Bille an-ghairid é agus níl ach fáth amháin gur tugadh isteach é, is é sin ionas gur féidir leis an Rialtas an toghchán atá dlite ó mhí Aibreán seo caite a sheacaint agus é a chur siar bliain, dhá bhliain nó trí bliana. Is cuma cad a déarfaidh an tAire nó an Rialtas, níl sin daonlathach. Tá siad ag teitheadh ón daonlathas.

What did the current Minister of State see at that time as the advantage of having democratically elected people? He said:

An buntáiste mór atá ag Údarás na Gaeltachta ná go bhfuil bunús daonlathach leis an údarás. Tháinig Údarás na Gaeltachta agus thug sé deis do mhuintir na Gaeltachta a gcuid baill a thoghadh go daonlathach. Toghadh baill as an tuaisceart, an iarthar, an deisceart agus fiú as Contae na Mí agus bhíodar go léir san údarás go daonlathach. Bhí tuiscint acu ar a gceantair féin agus ar na deacrachtaí atá ag muintir na Gaeltachta agus ar na féidireachtaí atá sna Gaeltachtaí. Tá jab an-mhaith déanta acu ó chuireadh ar bun iad.

He continued:

Is cuma mar gheall ar an mBille seo. Cuirfidh an Rialtas tríd é mar tá tromlach ag an Rialtas. Ní bheidh aon toghchán ann ar feadh dhá nó trí bliana agus is olc an rud é sin.

Aontaím leis an Aire Stáit gur olc an rud é go bhfuil an daonlathas á chur ar ceal. Is mór an náire é go bhfuil sé tar éis a thuairim a athrú. Bhí an ceart aige dhá bhliain ó shin nuair a chríochnaigh sé a leanas, "an dream is fearr a thuigeann an dóigh is fearr le obair a thabhairt isteach sa Ghaeltacht anois ná Údarás na Gaeltachta". The Minister of State was full of praise for Údarás na Gaeltachta then. I agree with what he said on that occasion. Speaking from this side of the House, I would like to be able to support him again. He cannot expect anybody to support a U-turn on democracy. Voting is too precious. We heard in recent weeks that we will have eight fewer Deputies. We are now being asked to provide for 17 fewer democratically elected members of Údarás na Gaeltachta. We will be asked to agree to 60 fewer Senators in the years to come. I do not like this tendency at all.

Séard a fheicfidh muid ná daoine atá tofa ag Fine Gael, jobs for the boys, cronyism den chéad scoth.

An rud is tábhachtaí a bhí ann maidir le toghchán bhord Údarás na Gaeltachta ná go raibh cead ag duine ar bith seasamh sna toghcháin, go raibh vótaí ag teacht ó mhuintir na Gaeltachta do phobal na Gaeltachta le seasamh suas do na mianta a bhí ag muintir na Gaeltachta le fócas ar cheisteanna Gaeltachta. Fiú má thógtar cás Chonamara anseo, tá leath de Chonamara sa Ghaeltacht agus leath eile nach bhfuil. Sa gcás sin tá comhairleoirí contae nach bhfuil as an nGaeltacht ná nach bhfuil Gaeilge acu as Chonamara agus bheadh siad ag vótáil ar son daoine a chur ar aghaidh maidir leis an nGaeltacht. Tá sé fíor thábhachtach go mbeadh an fócas sin ann agus go mbeadh tuiscin an-mhaith ag an dream atá ag plé le bord Údarás na Gaeltachta, go háirithe i gcomhthéacs na hacmhainní teoranta a bheidh ag an údarás sna blianta atá romhainn, de réir an méid atá ráite ag an Aire Stáit.

Dúirt an tAire Stáit nach bhfuil sé ag iarraidh "ordinary board". Tá bord Údarás na Gaeltachta chuile shórt ach "ordinary". Tá siad iontach neamhghnách, mar is é an t-aon bhord Stáit atá tofa. Is iontach an rud an daonlathas sin agus ba chóir é a choinneáil. Dúirt an tAire Stáit freisin go bhfuil sé ag iarraidh cothromaíochta, ach séard atá á dhéanamh aige ná baint den chothromaíocht ó thaobh na réigiúin de. Mar, má théann sé i dtreo an mholta atá aige, níl sé ag tabhairt cothromaíochta fiú. Faoi láthair, tá cothromaíocht ann ó thaobh thír eolais de agus líon an daonra atá ag cónaí sna ceantair, mar tá méid ionadaithe difriúil ag na ceantair éagsúla de réir an daonra atá acu. Tá an tAire Stáit ag baint den chothromaíocht atá ann do na ceantair beaga ar nó Múscraí, An Rinn agus Contae na Mí, mar ní bheith ionadaí acu sin ach uair chuile sé bliana.

Ní ghlacaim ar chor ar bith leis na hargóintí atá déanta ag an Aire Stáit. Tá sé an deacair dom a fheiceáil cé atá ar son an mholta atá aige nó cé as a dtáinig sé. Ní fheicim go bhfuil aon cheann de na heagrais ná na grúpaí pobal sna Gaeltachta ag tacú leis an moladh fáil réidh leis an rud atá ann. Ní fheicim aon duine in ann míniú iomlán a thabhairt ar ché mhéid airgid a bheidh le sábháil. Dá bhrí sin, iarraim ar an Aire Stáit athmhacnamh iomlán a dhéanamh agus athbhreithniú a dhéanamh ar an rud atá á moladh aige. Ba mhaith liom freisin tacú go hiomlán leis an méid a dúirt an Seanadóir Barrett roimh ré maidir leis an méid adúirt an Aire Stáit cheana.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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Bhí an ceart ag an Aire Stáit go mbeadh seans againn daonlathas nó easpa daonlathais a phlé níos déanaí, nuair a bheidh na leasuithe eile os ár gcomhair agus tá sé tábhachach iad a chur agus a phlé. Is é an bunús atá leis an leasú os ár gcomhair ná fáil amach na cáilíochtaí nó an stádas atá ag na baill atá tofa le bheith ar bhord an údaráis.

The Minister made an important point when he said it would be appropriate to have experts on a board such as this one. Nobody can disagree with that but on the other hand we have a discerning and sophisticated electorate which punishes when punishment is due and rewards when reward is due. That is the way it works, and that is also true of the Gaeltacht areas. When people had the opportunity democratically to elect the members onto the Údarás, they would examine their record in terms of what they had achieved, their qualifications and so on.

We cannot be blamed either if sometimes we look on experts with a jaundiced eye. I know a man who is a small builder and he used to calculate the cost of a contract on the back of a cigarette box, and he is still in business. I know builders who had everything going for them, and all the paraphernalia-----

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Déan pointe, más é do thoil é.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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It comes back to the point about the experts that the Minister raised. Some of those people who had all the paraphernalia are no longer around and therefore the difference between common sense and expert is not too wide. That is something we might have an opportunity of balancing, and that is the reason I thought comhchoiste an Oireachtais might play a role in that regard.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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I may be missing something but we are discussing political reform in the Údarás area. We spoke about selecting people from the county councils to act in this regard, yet we are in a Chamber whose Members are selected in the same manner by councillors. The Minister's point is that it would be wrong to say that Senators are not democratically accountable to anyone because they are not directly elected. I do not live in a Gaeltacht area, and I accept the bona fides of the concerns expressed by both Opposition Members, and the Minister's concerns, but having been a member of Donegal County Council for many years I am aware that the parties are not as political as they used to be and would be responsible in appointing people to Gaeltacht and Údarás boards.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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That was just their Fine Gael line.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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Senator Ó Clochartaigh can say there is a bias towards Fine Gael but that is democracy. There is a bias towards Fine Gael in this Chamber but that is democracy. There was a bias towards Fianna Fáil when it had a majority.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Not when non-Gaeltacht people elect those people on behalf of people from the Gaeltacht. That is the point but the Senator does not understand it.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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That is the point I want to make. It is the responsibility of the county councillors, and if they do not do it responsibly the electorate of Donegal or Galway can remove them at the next election but in my experience Donegal County Council will-----

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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Will there be a next election? Is that not the purpose of the Bill? There will not be another election.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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There will be county council elections.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Can I interrupt once more? I am getting tired interrupting, but Members are rambling. I hope that when we come to the actual amendment, where democracy and elections are on the table, we will not have a repeat of this discussion. I gave a lot of leniency to every Member to discuss democracy, the type of election or whatever even though that is not part of the amendment. As the Minister stated, the Senators are not speaking to the amendment. The amendment states that "Joint Oireachtas Committee" means Joint Oireachtas Committee of the Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht". I understand what the Senator is saying-----

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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I will conclude. I accept that Donegal County Council, like any other council in the Gaeltacht areas, will appoint councillors who will fulfil that role. Councillors appoint us as Senators because they have the experience. That is my point.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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That is understood but I ask speakers to please speak to the amendment.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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Deputy Alex White represented the Labour Party in this House two years ago and I ask my good friend, Senator Harte, to read what he said on this issue at that time because it is the opposite to what the Senator has just said, which is another volte face.

In terms of who we elect, the former Senator Jerry Buttimer, speaking in this House, stated:

Ba mhaith liom tréaslú le baill an bhoird. Molaim mo chuid chomhghleacaithe ó Fhine Gael — Ian Mac Aindriú, Mícheál Ó Scanaill, Séamus Cosaí Mac Gearailt agus Pádraig Ó Dochartaigh — as ucht an méid oibre atáá dhéanamh acu ar son muintir na Gaeltachta. In praising the Fine Gael members of the board, I ask why are the elections being postponed.

The message we send to the people of the Gaeltacht, despite what Members on the Government side will say, is that the Government is afraid to hold elections. There is no need to postpone them

That was the policy of the Labour and Fine Gael parties then and I do not know what has happened since. We have bogus economic arguments that the Government is saving money. It is not; it is denying democracy.

Incidentally, the population of the Gaeltacht in these elections is about 2% of the State. The population of Ireland in the European Union is 1%. I hope they are not recording this debate in that they could abolish Irish elections on the basis that the Germans could run the country much better, and the Commission would appoint people to run a bankrupt country. This is a slippery slope and I object to this denial of democracy.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Tá beagnach uair a chloig caite againn ar seo. Glacfaidh mé leis an cainteoir deireannach anois.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I respect the comments made by my friend and colleague, Senator Harte. We are not questioning the role of county councillors. This is about giving a voice to the 95,000 people who are living in Gaeltacht areas and not taking their democratic right from them. This is about people like Moya MacNiallas in Gweedore and others who, in the 1970s, fought to ensure democracy was extended to the board of Údarás na Gaeltachta. They fought, and they succeeded. Going back on that now we are removing a democratic institution. What is to say that county councils will not be changed? We are fighting for our existence in this House because the people do not have a direct say on the way we are elected. I do not necessarily agree with the way we are elected but that is the way it is done. The process should be extended. In terms of the way we are elected, every citizen in the State should have a vote.

We have been debating this issue for the past 40 minutes. In terms of the argument that the justification for this was to save money, in the past 40 minutes one Department, the Department of Social Protection, has spent almost €50 million. We are removing democracy under this Bill. Regardless of whether the elections are held next week or next month, we are attacking democracy to save €400,000 while on the other hand a huge amount of money is being spent by just one Department. The reality is that it is a drop in the ocean to the Exchequer. Why deprive a people of a vote just because of a few measly euro? The argument will extend itself into future elections for town councils, county councils, city councils and for mayoral elections. We will not have elections. We will go back to the way it used to be. We do not agree with that, which is why we will be pressing this amendment if there is no give on it.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Amendments Nos. 6 to 8, inclusive, are related and may be discussed together, by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 6:

In page 8, lines 30 to 32, to delete all words from and including "(whether" in line 30 down to and including "persons;" in line 32 and substitute the following:

"which will conform to standards and structures to be prescribed by the Minister;".

Fágfaidh mé faoin tSeanadóir Ó Clochartaigh leasú uimh. a 7 a phlé

Leasú teicniúil atá i leasú uimh. a 6 faoi na mínithe sa Bhille. De réir mar atá scríofa i líne 30, ciallaíonn "eagraíocht" comhlacht corpraithe, cibé acu ilchorparáid nó corparáid aonair é, agus comhlacht neamhchorpraithe daoine. Nuair a déantar cuardach ar an idirlín, to check out the term "body corporate", one finds the definition "a person, an association or group of persons legally incorporated, corporation". Má fágtar an míniú atá sa Bhille mar atá sé, is é an trioblóid mhór atá ann ná go mbéadh grúpaí príobháideacha nó grúpaí corparáide atá lonnaithe i gceantair Gaeltachta in ann cur isteach fá choinne na pleananna teanga a n-ullmhú agus a gcur ar fáil. Níl sé sonrach sa Bhille gur grúpaí pobal bhunaithe atá i gceist. Tá sé tábhachtach go mbéadh an dualgas sin ar ghrúpaí pobal-bhunaithe, is é sin comharchumainn, coistí paróiste nó coistí a bhfuil baint acu le Cumann Lúthchleas Gael agus a leithéid.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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A Leas-Chathaoirligh, the translation is not audible in my headphones.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Landy is entitled to have a translation. There may be a technical problem.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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I am hearing Senator Ó Domhnaill as Gaeilge.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Are you in the green zone, Senator?

Denis Landy (Labour)
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Ta sé ag obair anois.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Is í cuspóir an leasaithe cumhacht a thabhairt don Aire Stáit go dtiocfadh leis féin an caighdeán agus an struchtúr a leagadh amach i bhfo-ordú i dtaca le grúpa nó le coiste pobal-bhunaithe. Tá sé fíor thábhachtach go dtarlódh sé sin.

Níl an míniú atá scríofa sa Bhille sonrach go leor. Tá sé foscailte go mbéadh ar Údarás na Gaeltachta glacadh le hiarratas ó eagraíocht corparáide, cosúil le comhlacht, in aon cheantar.

De réir an chomhairle dlí atá faighte agam, agus ní dlíodóir mé, thiocfadh le comhlacht a rá go bhfuil sé pobal-bhunaithe ach d'fhéadfadh cupla stiurthóir ón chomhlacht sin cur isteach fá choinne plean teanga a chur le chéile in aon cheantar Gaeltachta, nó fiú taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht, Ansin bhéadh ar an údarás, nó ar cibé dream a bhéas ag plé leis seo, glacadh leis an iarratas, mar iarratas atá ag comhlíonadh na gcritéir atá leagtha síos sa reachtaíocht.

B'fhiú an cumhacht a bheith ag an Aire. Molaim go mbéadh an cumhacht aige an struchtúr agus an caighdeán a bhaineann leis na heagraíochtaí cuí seo a leagadh síos. Tá sé tábhachtach, cibé eagrais a mbéadh an dualgas orthu, i gcomhairle leis an údarás, na pleananna teanga seo a ullmhú, go mbéadh baint ag na heagrais sin leis an phobal, ar an leibhéal is ísle. In other words, they must be community based organisations from the grassroots up.

The argument concerning resources is entirely different. I will not go into that now because this amendment does not deal with resources, na hacmhainní a bhaineann leis na pleananna a gcur ar fáil. Beidh sé sin á phlé againn níos moille. Measaim go bhfuil sé tábhachtach go mbeidh sé seo deimhnithe sna mínithe a bhaineann leis an mBille seo.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Tá pointe tábhachtach ardaithe ag an Seanadóir Ó Domhnaill. Tá mé ag labhairt i dtreo leasú Uimh. 7, a mholann go gcuirfear an focal "comharchumann" isteach sa Bhille. B'fhéidir gur pointe dlí é seo. B'fhéidir go bhfuil an Aire Stáit in ann é a shoiléiriú. Is comharchumainn iad cuid mhaith de na heagrais phobal Gaeltachta atá ag feidhmiú taobh istigh de na 19 ceantar atá roghnaithe ag an Rialtas mar limistéir teanga. Níl sé iontach soiléir an bhfuil comharchumainn clúdaithe faoin bhfoclaíocht atá i gceist. Bhí mé ag iarraidh a bheith cinnte go bhféadfadh comharchumainn cur isteach ar an gcóras seo. Creidim go mbeidh deacrachtaí síos an bóthar i dtaobh an múnla atá á thógaint ag an Aire Stáit, os rud é go bhfuil ceantair éagsúla ina bhfuil dhá nó trí eagraíocht pobail-bunaithe nó comharchumainn ag feidhmiú. Beidh na deacrachtaí sin soiléir nuair a déanfar iarracht plean teanga a chur i bhfeidhm sna cheantair sin. Mar shampla, tá Comharchumann Mhic Dara ar an gCeathrú Rua ag feidhmiú sa cheantar ina bhfuil mé i mo chónaí. Tá Comhairle Ceantar na n-Oileán ag feidhmiú i gceantar na n-oileán. Tá ceann eile i Leitir Mealláin.

Is é an pointe atá á dhéanamh agam ná go mbeidh ar an Aire rogha a dhéanamh ar cén eagraíocht pobail-bunaithe atá á roghnú aige nó aici chun an plean teanga a ullmhú. Ní chlúdaíonn an comharchumann ar an gCeathrú Rua, mar shampla, ach leath den cheantar atá áirithe mar cheantar teanga agus níl sa cheantar sin ach ceann amháin as 19 ceantar. Sa chás sin, b'fhéidir go mbeidh ar an Aire comhchoiste de ghrúpaí eágsúla, a chlúdaíonn an cheantar ar fad, a chur le chéile mar atá déanta i gceantar Iorras Aithneach. Tá sé tábhachtach go mbeadh an bhfoclaíocht uilíoch sa chás seo. Má deireann an Aire síos an bóthar gur mhaith an rud é go dtiocfadh Comhairle Ceantar na n-Oileán agus Comharchumann Mhic Dara le chéile chun plean teanga a ullmhú don cheantar iomlán sin - ceantar na n-oileán agus an Cheathú Rua - b'fhéidir gur coiste comhoibríoch a bheadh ann agus go rachfadh an t-airgead, an maoiniú nó an tacaíocht tríd ceann nó ceann eile acu. Tá sé tábhachtach an ceist a riaradh. Bhí deacrachtaí anuas tríd na blianta leis na struchtúir éagsúla sna ceantair éagsúla, idir polaitíocht áitiúil agus cúrsaí praiticiúla. Tá sé tábhachtach go mbeadh na roghanna oscailte don Aire ionas go mbeidh sé nó sí ábalta obair le comharchumainn, go háirithe, má tá comharchumainn i gceist. Ba cheart go mbeadh deis ag an Aire, má tá dhá eagraíocht ag obair i gceantar, iad a thabhairt le chéile ionas go mbeidís in ann obair i gcomhair lena chéile. Ní chóir go mbeadh bac sa reachtaíocht a chuireadh stop ar an Aire é sin a dhéanamh.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Tá an sainmhíniú ar an bhfocal "eagraíocht" de réir an comhairle atá faighte againn ón Ard-Aighne. Tá sé mar ghnáth-nós riaracháin ag an Roinn seo agus ag Údarás na Gaeltachta a chinntiú go bhfuil struchtúr agus caighdeán gach eagraíocht a fhaigheann tacaíocht ón Roinn nó ón t-údarás in ord sula gcuirtear an tacaíocht sin ar fáil. Ar ndóigh, tá brí leathan leis an bhfocal "eagraíocht". Tá sé leathan go leor sa sainmhíniú. Beidh an t-údarás ag roghnú na n-eagraíochtaí agus ag tabhairt aird ar na critéir a bheidh leagtha síos sna rialacháin. Beidh sé oscailte don údarás an chineál struchtúr atá á lorg acu a leagadh síos ansin. Tá mé sásta go gclúdaíonn an focal "eagraíocht" na comharchumainn agus na gluaiseachtaí eile - más féidir liom é a chur mar sin - atá luaite ag an dá Sheanadóir. Da bhrí sin, ní bheidh mé ag glacadh le leasuithe Uimh. 6 agus 7.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Ba mhaith liom pointe gairid a dhéanamh. Glacaim go huile agus go hoimlán leis an méid atá ráite ag an Aire Stáit. Aontaím leis. B'fhéidir nach raibh an pointe a bhí mé ag iarraidh a chur i láthair soiléir go leor. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil sé seo sonraithe ag an údarás, ag an Roinn agus ag an Stát faoin chóras atá leagtha síos agus i gcomhthéacs an comhairle dlí atá faighte. Níl aon cheist agam faoi sin. Tá mé ag iarraidh a léiriú go bhfuil an míniú iontach leathan ar fad. Níl sé sonrach go leor. Tá sé ró-leathan. Bíonn an t-údarás ag plé le comhlachtaí príobháideacha agus coistí pobail go minic. Is é sin an fáth go bhfuil an remit leathan seo tugtha don údarás. Tá mé ag smaoineamh ar cúpla comhlacht leath-príobháideach sa Ghaeltacht atá ag plé le cúrsaí pobail, ach níl aon bhaint acu leis na pobail. An féidir leo iarratas a dhéanamh faoin bplean seo? Más féidir, an mbeidh ar an údarás glacadh leis an bplean ar an mbunús nó an dóigh ina bhfuil sé leagtha amach in áit an struchtúr a bheith teoranta d'eagraíochtaí pobail-bunaithe amháin?

Cé go nglacaim leis an méid atá ráite ag an Aire Stáit, bheadh sé níos fearr dá mbeadh sé sásta athbhreithniú a dhéanamh ar an ábhar seo agus é a phlé arís ar an Tuarascáil. Measaim gur pointe tábhachtach é seo. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil an cheist chéanna á ardú ag grúpaí Gaeilge agus Gaeltachta. B'fhéidir gur b'fhiú don Aire Stáit dul i dteagmháil leis an Ard-Aighne arís agus a rá gur chóir go mbeadh an reachtaíocht seo níos sonraí. Ní cheart dúinn ligint do chomhlachtaí príobháideacha bheith in ann cur isteach ar na pleananna seo a ullmhú agus a chur ar fáil fosta. An chéad rud eile ná go mbeidh comhlachtaí á chur le chéile sa Ghaeltacht chun na hiarratais seo a chur isteach. Tá eagla mór orm go dtiocfaidh triúr nó ceathrar dóibh le chéile chun gnó maith a dhéanamh amach as seo, agus go mbeidh ar an údarás glacadh leis na hiarratais a bheidh á dhéanamh acu. B'fhéidir nach dtarlóidh sé sin, ach tá mé ag iarraidh go mbeidh cosaint ar fáil, agus scríofa sa reachtaíocht, chun a cinntiú nach dtarlóidh sé. Tá an leasú seo curtha síos agam os rud é gur b'fhiú breathnú ar sin.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Glacaim leis go bhfuil leasuithe Uimh. 6, 7 agus 8 á phlé le chéile. Ba mhaith liom ceist a ardú faoi leasú Uimh. 8, atá á moladh ag an Aire Stáit. Molann an leasú go gcuirfear an focal "agus" in áit an focal "nó". Má ghlactar leis an leasú, is é an sainmhíniú a bheidh ar "eagraíocht" ná "comhlacht corpraithe (cibé acu ilchorparáid nó corparáid aonair é) nó comhlacht neamhchorpraithe daoine". Is é an leagan Béarla atá ar sin ná "an unincorporated body of persons". Úsáidtear an focal "comhlacht", ach is é "company" an leagan Béarla a bheadh agam ar "comhlacht". Dá bhrí sin, céard atá i gceist leis an frása "an unincorporated body of persons" seachas "an unincorporated company of persons"? Caithfidh mé nár chuala mé caint riamh ar "an unincorporated body of persons". Níl mé soiléir, ó thaobh an dlí de, ar céard a chiallaíonn sé.

Tá pointe iontach tábhachtach ardaithe ag an Seanadóir ó Domhnaill maidir le tionscal na gcoláistí samhraidh, mar shampla. I gceantair áirithe, tá na coláistí á riaradh ag comhlachtaí príobháideacha atá ag déanamh fíor-jab. I gceantair eile, tá na coláistí pobail-bunaithe agus á riaradh ag comharchumainn agus eile. Tá forálacha sa reachtaíocht seo a thabharfaidh cead don Aire comhlachtaí eile a roghnú muna bhfuil sé sásta leis an bplean atá á chur chun cinn ag na comhlachtaí atá i gceist. Má rachfaimid an bóthar sin, b'fhéidir go ndéarfaidh an Aire go bhfuil na comharchumainn ag troid lena chéile - nach bhfuil aon dul chun cinn á dhéanamh acu - agus go bhfuil sé ar intinn aige nó aici grúpa eile a fháil isteach agus conradh a thabhairt dóibh an plean a réiteach. Sílim ón bhfoclaíocht atá á úsáid anseo go bhféadfadh gur comhlacht príobháideach a bheadh i gceist.

Tá sé tábhachtach go bhfaighfimid soiléiriú ar an gceist seo. Níl mé ag rá go bhfuil an Aire Stáit ag iarraidh dul an treo seo, ach tá a fhios againn, nuair a thagann Airí eile isteach, go mbreathnaíonn siad ar an rud atá i gceist. D'fhéadfadh comhlacht príobháideach dúshlán a thabhairt mar nach bhfuil cead acu cur isteach ar chonradh atá á riaradh ag an Stát. An bhfuil ceist le n-ardú anseo ó thaobh cúrsaí iomaíochta, nó competition law, de. Má tá conradh le haghaidh plean forbartha a réiteach ar an gCeathrú Rua agus i gceantar na n-oileán, mar shampla, á fhógairt ag Aire, an mbeidh sé de cheart agam - má tá comhlacht príobháideach agus cáilíochtaí ó thaobh pleanáil teanga de agam - daoine a roghnú ón bpobal atá chun tuairimí an phobail a thabhairt dom, coiste a chur le chéile chun comhairle a chur orm agus mo chomhlacht a chur isteach ar an gconradh? Sílim gur chóir go mbeadh na ceisteanna dlíthiúla fiosraithe sula leanann muid ar aghaidh.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Tá sé níos fearr brí leathan, seachas cúng, a fhágáil sa sainmhíniú ar eagla go mbeadh éinne fágtha amuigh de thairbhe sin. Nuair a bheidh Údarás na Gaeltachta ag roghnú na n-eagraíochtaí, beidh siad ag tabhairt aird ar na critéir a bheidh leagtha síos sna rialacháin a bheidh ann. Ar an ábhar sin, ní shílim go bhfuil aon bunús leis an imní atá ar na Seanadóirí go dtarlóidh aon rud. De bharr sin, ní ghlacfaidh mé le leasuithe Uimh. 6 agus 7. Is leasú teicniúil é leasú Uimh. 8. Tá sé molta ag an Dréachtóir Parlaiminte. Molaim go nglacfaimid leis an leasú seo. It is a technical amendment.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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Táimid ar leasú Uimh. 6.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Gabh mo leithscéal.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Tá leasuithe Uimh. 6, 7 agus 8 grúpáilte.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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They are all together.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Tá siad le chéile.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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Tá siad á phlé le chéile, ach tá leasú Uimh. 6 faoi bhráid an Tí faoi láthair.