Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Níl aon leithscéal faighte againn. We have received no apologies.

Is mian liom na riachtanais bhunreachtúla seo a leanas a mheabhrú do chomhaltaí agus páirt á ghlacadh acu i gcruinnithe poiblí. Caithfidh comhaltaí a bheith i láthair go fisiciúil laistigh de theorainn suímh Theach Laighean. Ní cheadóidh mé do chomhaltaí labhairt ag cruinnithe poiblí nuair nach bhfuil siad ag cloí leis an riachtanas bunreachtúil seo. Mar sin, má dhéanann aon chomhalta iarracht páirt a ghlacadh ó lasmuigh den suíomh, iarrfaidh mé orthu an cruinniú a fhágáil. Maidir leis seo, iarraim ar chomhaltaí a dheimhniú go bhfuil siad i láthair laistigh de phurláin Theach Laighean sula ndéanann siad aon ionchur ar an gcruinniú ar MS Teams.

Fíoraítear do chomhaltaí cleachtadh Parlaiminte a urramú nár chóir, más féidir, daoine ná eintiteas a cháineadh ná líomhaintí a dhéanamh ina n-aghaidh ná tuairimí a thabhairt maidir leo ina ainm, ina hainm nó ina n-ainm ar shlí go bhféadfaí iad a aithint. Chomh maith leis sin, fiafraítear dóibh gan aon rud a rá a d'fhéadfaí breathnú air mar ábhar díobhálach do dhea-chlú aon duine nó eintiteas. Mar sin, dá bhféadfaí ráiteas a bheith clúmhillteach do dhuine nó eintiteas aitheanta, ordóidh mé don duine éirí as an ráiteas láithreach. Tá sé ríthábhachtach go ngéillfidh comhaltaí don ordú sin láithreach.

I advise members of the constitutional requirement that they be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate if they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via MS Teams, prior to making a contribution, to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if members' statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

The Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach is meeting today to consider the following Supplementary Estimates for public services for 2025: Votes 11, 13, 14, 17 and 18. We are joined by the Minister, Deputy Chambers, and the Minister of State, Deputy Moran. The Estimates process is Dáil Éireann's method to allow the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation to seek to withdraw funds from the Exchequer to meet most Government spending obligations. Articles 17.1.1° and 28.4.4° of the Constitution provide for the presentation to, and consideration of, Estimates by Dáil Éireann. Standing Order 217 requires Estimates to be considered in committee. It is well-established practice that they are referred to the relevant sectoral select committee. Once hearings conclude, committees send a message to Dáil Éireann, which generally approves Estimates without debate. Committees cannot amend Estimates and have no formal role in approving them. However, Standing Order 223 provides that committees may make a report to the Dáil in respect of their consideration of Estimates.

In that context, I welcome the Minister and Minister of State and their officials. I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the invitation to appear before them. I am here to engage on four Supplementary Estimates proposed for Votes under the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation Vote group. I will detail the requirement for each Vote presently.

In summary, they are for a substantive Supplementary Estimate of a net €800,000 and a gross €800,000 for Vote 11, the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation; a substantive Supplementary Estimate for a net €1.172 million and a gross €1.101 million for Vote 14, the State Laboratory; a technical Supplementary Estimate for a net €1,000 and a gross €51,000 for Vote 17, the Public Appointments Service; and a technical Supplementary Estimate of a token €1,000 for Vote 19, the National Shared Services Office. All together, the proposed Supplementary Estimates result in an increased allocation of €1.974 million in net terms and €1.953 million in gross terms across the four Votes.

A further Supplementary Estimate under the ministerial Vote group is being sought for the Office of Public Works. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Moran, will address that shortly.

The Department of public expenditure is seeking a substantive Supplementary Estimate for a net €800,000 and a gross €800,000 under Vote 11. This is caused by a move of staff in the infrastructure division in early 2025, previously covered under Vote 39, the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, to Vote 11, the Department of public expenditure. There will be a commensurate saving on the Office of Government Procurement Vote. As members know, in accordance with the programme for Government, a new infrastructure division was established within the newly formed Department. This resulted in 13 construction policy staff transferring from Vote 39, the Office of Government Procurement, to Vote 11, the Department of public expenditure. While the OGP is part of the Department, the separate Vote structure restricts funds transfers in these scenarios. A formal Supplementary Estimate is needed to give effect to the transfer of these allocations. As I said, a commensurate saving will be made in Vote 39, which will be returned to the Exchequer from the OGP Vote.

We are seeking a substantive Supplementary Estimate of €1.172 million in net terms and €1.101 million in gross terms for Vote 14, the State Laboratory. The requirement for this substantive Supplementary Estimate is the result of the Vote seeing a significant increased cost for laboratory consumables and equipment service contracts, pressures on premises expenses due to higher energy costs and an unforeseen, essential IT project – Microsoft Exchange.

Appropriations-in-aid income has also been lower than expected. However, the State Laboratory estimates savings of €220,000 in administrative pay due to delays in recruitment and staff vacancies. The Supplementary Estimate request includes a technical element to allow the State Laboratory to draw down €149,000 of an €820,000 EU grant, which will be used to purchase laboratory equipment. Both the relevant expenditure subhead and appropriations-in-aid have been increased by the same amount, resulting in no net effect on the Estimate for the State Laboratory.

On Vote 17, a technical Supplementary Estimate is sought for the Public Appointments Service, PAS. This net amount of €1,000 is required to allow the PAS to meet additional expenditure on payroll by redeploying savings elsewhere on the Vote. The payroll expenditure for PAS has being running slightly ahead of budget profile since the start of the year as a result of increased costs on payroll to support its recruitment mission. The funding requirement for this Supplementary Estimate is offset by savings under the interview board cost subhead. In addition to this, an increase in receipts and appropriations-in-aid has contributed to the resources available, meaning the net request is only for €1,000 net funding overall.

A technical Supplementary Estimate is sought for Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office, NSSO, to provide for the reallocations of funding within the Vote to areas experiencing pressures. Savings in programmes A, NSSO function, and programme C, finance shared services, with a total value of €3.3 million, will transfer to other areas within the Vote to provide for the reallocation of funding within the Vote to cover additional pay costs and core enterprise IT costs. These savings have arisen due to the timing of payments on capital projects and revised plans for the second wave of the implementation of financial management shared services, FMSS, resulting in the go-live having two phases across 2025 and 2026. In addition, €1.5 million is required to cover additional pay costs, including temporary clerical officers and overtime to address the increased volumes of work on hand along with pension and other payroll matters arising during 2025. An additional €1.3 million is required to cover core IT enterprise costs. Given the nature of the office, the NSSO is a significant consumer of IT-related services and costs in this area have been increasing year on year. Lastly, an additional €500,000 was required to cover increased bank charges and postal costs and unforeseen tax interest and penalties relating to pension matters arising during 2025.

In conclusion, the committee's approval of the proposed Supplementary Estimates will enable the Votes concerned to continue to provide key services and projects to the end of 2025. I commend them to the committee and am happy to answer questions related to the proposed Supplementary Estimates.

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the opportunity to present the Office of Public Works, OPW, Supplementary Estimates for 2025. The OPW seeks an additional allocation of just over €9 million in current expenditure and just over €29 million in capital expenditure, bringing the total gross estimate of this year to €752.3 million, an increase of €38.3 million.

Increases in appropriations-in-aid of €3.7 million resulted in the total net Estimate of just under €726 million, an increase of €34.6 million when compared with the Revised Estimates Volume of €691.4 million. The Supplementary Estimate is necessary to provide for a number of additional expenditure requirements, including an increase in operational costs related to the delivery of the OPW capital and maintenance works programme and increased IT licensing and security requirements. An additional capital allocation addresses priorities where the OPW is mandated to deliver, such as flood relief schemes, as well as providing for a strategic property acquisition.

The principal areas driving the capital supplementary requirements of just over €29 million include the increase in the construction of flood relief schemes to protect homes and businesses, such as in Crossmolina, where a derogation received from Inland Fisheries Ireland has permitted the OPW to continue construction during the month of October. Progress on other schemes at construction has also benefited from the long dry spells, and increases in funding are required across these projects to continue the current schedule. The addition of funding of €5 million will bring the total capital spend on flood relief management to over €100 million, the most we have spent in any one year. The strategic acquisition of an office building in Dublin will provide long-term expenditure savings on leasing costs. The acquisition has a payback of less than eight years and is an exemplar of how the OPW's optimisation of the estate can provide significant value for money opportunities, at €24.3 million in this case. The final area is upgrade works to State buildings to facilitate the required conferencing facilities for Ireland's EU Presidency in 2026, at €4.1 million.

The year 2025 has seen the commencement of the construction of an office building at the Limerick Opera site to provide modern, energy-efficient and appropriate Civil Service accommodation in Limerick City. In addition to this capital investment in respect of the Limerick Opera project, the OPW has also acquired the historic estate lands at Castletown House in Celbridge on behalf of the State. This strategic purchase completes the reunification of the remaining historic demesne lands in Castletown in the ownership of the State. I look forward to working with Kildare County Council and other stakeholders on a master plan for the further development of Castletown and Donaghcumper.

Given the scale of the commitments involved in these capital investments, it has not been possible to remain within the existing 2025 allocation without impacting on the delivery of other critical programmes and projects. Despite the additional cost in 2025, the OPW has actively managed its resources throughout the year and absorbed over 50% of this additional cost in 2025, within its existing allocation, resulting in a capital supplementary request of just over €29 million. The principal areas requiring this current supplementary requirement of €9 million include the recruitment of professional and technical staff necessary to strengthen the OPW's in-house delivery and capacity to ensure the timely, cost-efficient delivery of the OPW capital and maintenance works programme. Increasing demand in the delivery of projects for both the OPW and other Government Departments requires these additional staff, at a cost of €3.1 million. Recruitment of additional operational staff, in addition to the longer operational staff contracts to facilitate the increased visitor demand at heritage sites, is required at a cost of €1.5 million. This increase has been offset, however, by a forecast increase in heritage sales and admissions of €1.7 million over the 2025 allocation.

There are increased costs related to the delivery of the maintenance works programme. The OPW manages over 2,500 buildings, such as Garda stations, courthouses, central government offices and facilities for front-line public services. Along with continued construction inflation, there has been a continued increase in the number of maintenance callouts, in addition to the highly complex technical properties that have been added to the portfolio, such as Tom Johnson House and Leeson Lane, among others, which all require maintenance at a cost of €2.1 million.

There has been an increase in IT costs related to necessary software licences and IT security requirements of €700,000, and increased service charges on leases and utility costs of €800,000. There are also non-pay costs such as the maintenance of conference venues and the purchase of necessary IT equipment in preparation for the EU Presidency of €1.5 million.

Similar to our capital expenditure, the OPW has actively managed its current expenditure resources throughout the year, seeking to contain costs and identify efficiencies where possible, and savings have been made. However, the scale and nature of the current expenditure pressures, particularly those pressures outside the control of the OPW, means additional costs cannot be fully absorbed within existing allocations. The additional current expenditure assists in the delivery focus of the OPW and has enabled us to continue to deliver on key projects.

The Supplementary Estimate also reflects the increase in appropriations-in-aid receipts of €3.7 million, arising primarily from the higher-than-anticipated receipts under a number of headings. These include an increase in income from events and conferences, strong visitor receipts at heritage sites and the disposal of State assets. These additional receipts reflect the OPW's active management of its income stream and contributes to offsetting part of the additional gross expenditure requirement. This adjustment ensures the Supplementary Estimate more accurately reflects the project outturn in 2025 and supports the overall management of the OPW Vote and available resources. I look forward to engaging with the committee.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister and the Minister of State. I now invite members to discuss. We have a list of those who have already indicated, namely, na Teachtaí Nash, Brennan, O'Callaghan, Timmins, Burke agus ansin an Teachta Doherty. I will begin with an Teachta Nash.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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I thank the Chair. I welcome the Ministers and their officials. In respect of Vote 11, the Minister, Deputy Chambers, made reference to the infrastructure division, some of the internal changes that will be made there and the transfer of staff from the OGP. He referred to 13 construction policy staff having transferred from Vote 39 and that explains the proposed adjustments there. How many staff are in the infrastructure division at the moment?

Was it not the case that there was a stand-alone climate division? Is the climate division still there or has it been absorbed into the infrastructure division?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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From recollection, there are between 50 and 60 staff in the infrastructure division at present. The lead on climate is also providing the lead on infrastructure delivery. The broader objective across the national development plan, the transport sectoral plan that we published today and what we have published on energy in the last two weeks relates to decarbonisation in the economy. Many of the personnel involved in the climate division are also in the infrastructure division.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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On the creation of the infrastructure division, has there been any net increase in headcount in the Department arising from that or is the infrastructure division entirely staffed by people who were originally in the Department of public expenditure and reform or who have been moved from other Government Departments, with particular areas of expertise?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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We have some secondees in from external commercial State bodies. What we have been doing this year is business planning for the broader work of the infrastructure division next year. We expect a significant increase next year as part of the budgetary settlement that we made, in terms of staffing and the overall work of the infrastructure division.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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There will be new hires, so in other words, this time next year-----

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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There will be more in the infrastructure division. That was reflected in the budgetary settlement we made. We have been planning the work of the infrastructure division but also prioritising within the headcount that we have. That is important in the context of budgetary planning.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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This question is for the Minister of State, Deputy Moran. There are references in his contribution and the Supplementary Estimates to the purchase of a Dublin city centre site to accommodate new offices.

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Yes, new offices for public services.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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It seems to me to be a positive initiative. Obviously, significant resources are being spent on the lease of expensive properties, so in time, it would seem that that would make good business sense. Is the Minister of State in a position to elaborate on where that is and the purpose of that property?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I cannot at this time.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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Is it commercially sensitive?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Yes.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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It has not been signed off on yet. When does the Minister of State expect that will be signed off on?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Next month.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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Roughly how many staff will that accommodate? I do not expect the Minister of State to identify the Department or agency that will occupy it because that would be, for want of a better description, letting the cat out of the bag, and may have sensitivities.

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Upwards of 400 staff.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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Okay. The Minister of State referred to the disposals of State properties and the sales from the disposals of State properties. What are the significant State properties that have been disposed of this year?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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We have sold nine State properties, including Garda stations. One significant one is in Portlaoise, where we took in over €1 million. The rest all either go on public auction, go to local authorities or are bought online.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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I move to administration, pay and non-pay, under subheads A1 and B1. Reference is made to commitments relating to apprenticeship and traineeship programmes. The OPW always had a strong tradition of engaging apprentices in stonemasonry and other disciplines. Will the Minister of State talk us through where the OPW is at the moment, the numbers of apprentices on the books, and the various crafts that they are engaged in, if he has the information to hand?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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There are 41 apprentices. The Deputy is right that we have a good apprenticeship programme. I visited it in recent weeks. These apprenticeships are vital going forward, because many want to stay in the OPW. They are trained to the highest standard and we would like them to do that. We have a good programme and we have always continued it. When I was in government before, I upped it, and I would like to see that figure grow again.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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On the different categories and crafts involved, I am assuming we are talking about stonemasons, carpenters, potentially-----

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Engineering, stonemasons and carpentry.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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The Minister of State may have limited information but it is in all our interests and we are all engaged in this issue, to ensure that gender balance is achieved on apprenticeship programmes, by attracting more young women into craft apprenticeships.

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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We try to do that. It is not always possible but there seems to be more of an interest now than before.

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
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My first questions are for the Minister, Deputy Chambers, partially following up on what Deputy Nash was inquiring about. He mentioned 50 to 60 employees in the infrastructure division. Does that include the 13?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
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Reference was made to the 13 being construction policy staff. It seems vague. Could the Minister expand on that?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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In the OGP, staff are involved in the capital works management framework and the wider work in the construction sector relating to the OGP. As part of the infrastructure reforms which will be advancing next year, there will be a significant element of reform of how procurement in the infrastructure area operates. That is why integrating that component of the OGP was important, but there is also wider work in the Department to better integrate the OGP into the Department. Because of the establishment of the infrastructure division, the personnel on the construction policy side and those involved in the capital works management framework have played an important role in giving practical feedback about some of the difficulties, of market access, which we hear from SMEs, and competitive tendering and infrastructure delivery, which we need to improve. They have had a positive input into the infrastructure reform agenda. That is the purpose of their role being integrated into the Department.

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
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On the State Laboratory, there are reasonably substantial additional costs. The Minister is right in saying that they are unforeseen and therefore in the Supplementary Estimates. Will he expand on that?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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A significant increase in the cost of laboratory consumables and laboratory equipment service contracts arose and much of this work is operational in the State Laboratory. From what I have been told, there was an unforeseen essential IT project which is a core part of its wider work as a State Laboratory. Much of that is demand-driven and that was reflected in the additional Supplementary Estimate.

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
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Are they inflationary costs?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Some are, with additional costs in gas and electricity. There were non-pay premises expenses.

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
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I have a final question for the Minister, on the customs control equipment instrument, CCEI, EU grant. What is that for, with the €149,000?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I will have to get that checked and will revert on that. Obviously €149,000 has been captured in that but I will get further detail for the committee about that specific grant.

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister. I ask the Minister of State, Deputy Moran, about the €4.1 million for building upgrades. I understand these relate to the EU Presidency, as does the €1.5 million in IT spend.

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Sorry-----

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
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There are two revised figures for increased spending. One is in building upgrades and one is in IT projects. They are both down as relating to Ireland's Presidency of the EU. I have two questions. Will the Minister of State elaborate on the building upgrades? That seems to be a substantial figure. Secondly, could we get an understanding of how such an unforeseen figure arises, given that we knew we would have the EU Presidency, and it seems to be late in the day to be looking at buildings to see if they are fit for purpose?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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The bulk of that money was for the significant work at Dublin Castle and teleconferencing, through the IT section. It is all important to the EU Presidency that is coming to us, so that is where the bulk of the money is coming from. It was not provided in the original Estimate.

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
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So most of the €4.1 million would be in Dublin Castle. Are any specific works taking that money?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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We have moved. We are doing up the castle. The castle provides huge long-term value to the State. It future-proofs the castle for the next 100 years. This work is necessary but it is also important to the EU Presidency.

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I thank the Minister of State.

Finally, I will touch on the heritage sites. Obviously, I note and welcome the increase in visitors. First, will the Minister of State comment on what is driving the increase in visitors and can he point to which of the heritage sites are seeing the biggest improvement?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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First of all, all our heritage sites are seeing significant numbers. I suppose it is down to the fact that a lot of people want to see the heritage. A lot of people are turning back to it. Last year alone, we had 15 million visitors to our heritage sites. When they talk about tourism being down, this is a huge stepping stone in the right direction. We can even grow further.

We spend a lot of money in our sites and keep them up to date. We also have good guides. We have good staff. I suppose where you have that, people tend to go there. In particular, tourists of all ages like to see that. We have seen major improvement over the years but the growth in numbers is particularly welcome.

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
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So the increase is across the board.

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Yes.

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
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As I said, it is obviously welcome to see the increase in visitors. Are there any initiatives from the Department driving that?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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We have a number of initiatives. We have the free Wednesdays. We also have the under-12s being free. That is a big driver. It is something I brought in the last time. The parents come along with the children and it is a key part of the whole thing. There is a big deal in relation to pensioners as well, which is important.

Some of our projects have been transformed by upgrades and people keep coming back. There is a feel-good factor about it all.

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
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It is good to hear. I thank them both.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The customs control equipment instrument, which was published at an EU level, is what relates to the State Laboratory EU grant.

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister. Sorry, I did not catch the last part.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I am not a fan of acronyms - there are too many acronyms - but it is the customs control equipment instrument, which relates to the EU grant for the State Laboratory. I will get further detail on it and provide it to the committee.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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Is that part of the service contracts in Vote 14?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. They secured the customs control equipment instrument EU grant and that covers €0.149 million. It is a technical Supplementary Estimate but I will get further detail on it.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister. On Vote 14, the Microsoft Exchange project was unforeseen. Why was that unforeseen? Why was that not envisaged as part of the IT planning process?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I have been told that it was an unforeseen essential IT project. I have not got the specific operational detail about why it was not within their digital capital investment programme but I will provide the committee with that information.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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On Vote 18, the National Shared Services Office, pay and IT cost pressures there were not anticipated in the original allocation. Is there a reason they were not anticipated? What happened there?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The office adopted the National Institute of Standards and Technology cybersecurity framework and that was to minimise security risks across the organisation and protect the data that it held. That related to some of the additional expenditure to meet the requirements of the revised network and information security, NIS2, directive. Obviously, the scale and scope of the IT component of the NSSO is so significant and there were additional costs in terms of system upgrades in addition to the cybersecurity matter that I raised.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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On these Votes in general, that is, Votes 11, 14, 17 and 18, the chair of the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, IFAC, Seamus Coffey, has said the Government is budgeting like there is no tomorrow. I have raised with the Minister previously issues around the spending review process, which has been quietly dropped. Between 2017 and 2022, there was an average of 26 spending reviews annually published; in 2021, there were 37; in 2023, only 11; but none in 2024 and 2025. There have been various other reports published but they are not part of the spending review process. There was a review of the spending review process done in 2024 but that has never been published. Will the Minister share with the committee the review of the spending review process that was done in 2024?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I actually have a draft letter to send back to the Deputy because we debated this in a parliamentary question. Deputy Nash has raised it and perhaps Deputy Doherty. I am happy to write a technical briefing. There are multiple reviews that have been published and there is a misunderstanding about that in the context of some of the questions I have received. I spoke to officials beforehand. I am due to send the Deputy a letter on that. There are extensive areas that have been published. I said that over the period 2024 and 2025, 63 papers have been published. There has been extensive work in my Department around the medium-term expenditure framework and other documents but anything that is researched is being published as it is being progressed. I think there is a misunderstanding around that. The principal officer and the assistant secretary spoke about it beforehand and they are more than happy to provide a technical briefing to finance spokespeople on that particular matter because it is not what is being asserted.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I appreciate that answer but the question I asked was about the review of the spending review process that was done in 2024 and that has never been published. Will the Minister share that review with the committee?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I would have no difficulty in providing information on that.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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Will the Minister share the review with the committee?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I have no difficulty providing that to the committee, or information around it. The whole impetus in my Department is to publish what can be published. That has been the focus of anything that we have advanced.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister. I look forward to that.

I have a question for the Minister of State, Deputy Moran. On the EU Presidency upgrades, I appreciate the answer the Minister of State has given. The question is, why were these not foreseen? We knew the Presidency was coming. Dublin Castle has been the venue previously. Was no proper estimation done that there would need to be works taking place in Dublin Castle? How were they not factored in properly in the original budgeting process? It is not a surprise that we are holding the EU Presidency and it is not a surprise that the main events are happening in Dublin Castle. How is it that it was not foreseen or planned for in the original budgeting process?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Most of this spend will be next year. We are planning for the EU Presidency. While the castle is, I suppose, the biggest part of that and we are planning as we speak for that, and a number of different things are taking place there, as we go forward that is the spend that will take place in relation to the castle.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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Yes but I am trying to understand why it was not part of the original Estimates or budget. We knew the EU Presidency was coming. We knew there would need to be works done, presumably this year. Why was it not budgeted for or was it just not thought about in the budgeting process? Was it forgotten about? What happened?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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It was discussed with the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation and it was agreed that we would convene for it at this time.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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Finally, in his opening statement, the Minister of State was talking about Garda stations, etc. As he will be aware, a promise was made in 2019, when he was the Minister of State, for a Garda station at Northern Cross. The response the Minister of State is giving on that is that a site still has not been identified, even though he identified one six years ago. What is holding that up?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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We might have identified one years ago and things change, such as the demand in respect of the Garda and the occupation by gardaí. We are working with them. We are helping identify a site. If that comes in front of us, they are the people who tell us and we will go ahead and do the required to build it.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister of State.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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My questions are for the Minister of State, Deputy Moran. I have only four questions.

First of all, returning to the building that Deputy Nash referred to in Dublin city centre, I have a technical question. The nine-page document states there is a payback of eight years and it is a €24 million capital cost. That would imply a rental saving of €3 million per annum but yet I see, on the cash flow saving the Minister of State sets out on page 8, a saving of €1.6 million for a quarterly rent. That would imply over €6 million annual rent. Am I missing something there? The payback implies €3 million, whereas the quarterly rent implies a €6 million saving.

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I will come back to the Leas-Chathaoirleach on that.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Page 5 of the brief refers to public sector pay agreements having increased the cost base by a total of 3%. Would the Minister of State not have known when doing the original budget that those public sector pay agreements were coming down the tracks?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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We slightly underestimated it. It has gone upwards.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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My last two questions concern matters in my constituency, Wicklow. The first relates to responsibility for overseeing courthouses. There is a courthouse in Wicklow town that has been lying derelict since 2010. It is next door to Wicklow Gaol, the major tourist attraction in the town. Could the Minister of State put on his radar refurbishing the building and bringing it back into use either as a court, for which it has not been used in over 16 years, or as a public amenity? It is right in the middle of Wicklow town. I ask the Minister of State to consider this.

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I hear the Deputy but, again, this is a matter for the Department of justice. If that Department provides the money, we do the work. It has not been on my radar, as such, but I will take it up with the relevant Minister, Deputy O’Callaghan, and revert to the Deputy.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State.

The last issue is one I have raised here before. In Baltinglass, on the River Slaney, there is a weir in danger of collapsing. Nobody seems to be taking responsibility for it. Inland Fisheries Ireland has stated it is not its responsibility. I ask the Minister of State to examine this also.

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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In recent months, I have changed the allocation for minor works from €750,000 to €2 million. It is open to a local authority to seek funding. Somebody has to take ownership. This does not fall within the remit of the OPW but I can be sure the local authority or some such body is the owner. The changes we have made would allow works like those proposed to be carried out.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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What was the grant the Minister of State referred to?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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We changed the amount for the minor works scheme from €750,000 to €2 million because there is such demand from local authorities regarding water, including flooding. This is an area that the Leas-Chathaoirleach might look into.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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I wish to refer to the issue of the increase for the OPW of €29.064 million, representing an increase of 8.8%. I fully accept what the Minister of State says about accelerating key capital projects, but what is the real cost increase owing to construction inflation? There is no breakdown. The Minister of State referred to accelerating capital projects, but what percentage relates to acceleration and what percentage relates to inflation or additional works that are required to be carried out? The cost of the Glashboy flood relief scheme, for example, is now nearly three times what it was originally. In fairness, that is because additional work had to be done, which I fully understand, but I am wondering whether there is any breakdown in relation to the approximately €29 million.

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Cost inflation was 2% to 3%. That identifies the inflation costs in relation to projects.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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What is the inflation cost?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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It is 2% to 3%.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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What percentage of the approximately €29 million was for additional work?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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The remainder. Twenty-four million euro of that was the purchase price.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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Twenty-four million euro. Say a project that was due to take 12 months now takes 18 months. What is the inflation figure allowed in such contracts? I understand an inflation figure is built into the cost of doing works.

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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We build contingency into the overall project.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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It is built into the-----

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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The contingency.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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What percentage is used in the contracts?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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It varies from project to project.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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But what is the variation? If a contract with a value of, say, €10 million is agreed and there is an inflation clause allowing for an increase in building costs, what inflation is normally allowed in that scenario?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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It depends on the rate of inflation.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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Surely there is a clause stipulating that the builder has to absorb the first 4%, for instance. At what stage is there an additional building cost?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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The best thing I can do is provide the Deputy with a note on that.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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Can I get a note on that?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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Yes. I will give the Deputy a note on that.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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It is important because inflation in building costs is a big issue that has arisen, as is the way in which it is affecting contracts overall.

Could I ask about gross capital expenditure of the OPW from year to year? When was the last time the OPW stayed within its budget as set out at the start of the year? One of my colleagues has already stated that we now need to be very careful about expenditure and make sure we are getting value for money, while also making sure we are planning carefully for the future. Overspending has occurred in quite a few Departments, so much so that it is adding up to quite a substantial sum. Do we not now need to examine all these areas? In the past three to four years, for instance, there has been a huge inflation rate in the HSE, whereas this year the additional money required by the HSE is very much under control, based on a budget of over €24 billion. What is the OPW doing to ensure we will stay within budget and at the same time get projects delivered?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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We always do try to stay within budget but our organisation is driven by progress as well. To take the example of flood defences, for the first time ever we are at a figure of €100 million. We have 100 schemes. We are reaching out to the public at large all over the country to try to protect them from flooding.

On the building side and the Vote including the purchasing of the premises, we are trying to save on renting. Renting and leasing are very important but when an opportunity to buy a building comes along, we have to grasp it. It prevents us from having to rent and lease, and this alone results in savings. This is something we always consider, but we always try to keep within budget. My main focus is delivery, particularly on the flooding side.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State said the last time he was in here that the Glashboy flood relief scheme figure was €38 million. What will be the figure at the time the project is fully completed? Will it be within €38 million?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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The scope of the project has changed, as the Deputy will be aware, but I hope to keep within budget. I get that question a lot. When works are done in a town or village under a flood relief scheme, things change from time to time.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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I fully accept that. The figure given to me the last day was €38 million. I am now asking whether the Minister of State believes we will still be within €38 million when the scheme is fully completed?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I would love to say “Yes” but I cannot at this time. When the scheme was first-----

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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Is it possible to get a note back on this?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I will get the Deputy a note on it.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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The final issue I wish to raise is the EU Presidency. There is a figure this year that was not planned for. Are we satisfied that we have made adequate provision for dealing with issues that will have to be dealt with during the EU Presidency in 2026?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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The overall OPW cost for the EU Presidency is estimated at €66 million. In this regard, the current expenditure is €41 million and the capital expenditure is €25 million. Most of the expenditure will occur in 2026. The costs will include the costs of capital works at State-owned venues and hiring supplementary venues and equipment, such as modern audiovisual equipment, and temporary staff to manage the OPW services.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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The capital works would have to be done within the next three to four months. Are we satisfied that we will get the capital works done within the required time period?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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I would be hopeful. We will do our best to do that.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister mentioned the medium-term expenditure framework. In what context did he mention that? I did not hear everything he said. Is it something he is updating?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I mentioned it in the context of work and policy analysis the Department has done and published. It takes a wider-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine. I just did not pick up the context. Obviously, this framework was published before the budget. It looked at the overall trend and the fact that in every year of the Minister's term in government, including his time as public expenditure Minister, the Government has broken its own rules on expenditure. I think that is fair to say. It has never once remained within its own 5% expenditure rule. The look back is to inform the future, yet today we are part of a process that looks at over €2 billion in additional spending across Departments. As the Minister for public expenditure who publishes glossy documents to tell us how bad Governments did at staying within budget in the past and who now comes before us looking for €2 billion additional to the budget as part of this process, what does the Minister say about his core role in terms of public expenditure and ensuring there is proper budgeting and value for money? My colleagues mentioned IFAC's claims that the Government is budgeting like there is no tomorrow. We can spend money and invest but the failure to budget for things that are, in some cases, very obvious is a serious issue.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The way we approached budget 2026 was to look at the demand drivers in terms of expenditure. From a social protection perspective, for example, we looked at additional recipients. Trying to provide adequacy and headroom has been critical. It is similar to the growth in health expenditure, which is continuing. We have accounted for the demographic changes that are happening in the overall budgetary context that we agreed.

Part of what we set out this year in the Supplementary Estimates involved additional demands from a disability perspective. There is a 20% increase in disability funding for next year. We have tried to use the look-back exercise to inform the trade-offs and choices we have made. Many of the budgetary decisions we made for next year were about stabilising the base position of Departments where demand has been clear. That will inform the broader budgetary planning in the medium-term fiscal framework, which has to see more moderation of overall expenditure and expenditure much closer to what is budgeted for. That was the priority in the discussions we had prior to budget 2026.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Forget about budget 2026, because, obviously, we will not be able to hold the Government to account as to whether it budgeted prudently or not. I would bet my house on the Government repeating the same trends. That is obvious. The health budget is an example. When you cut through the spin and bull, there is a serious issue with what the Government has done in terms of health. Let us just park that, because 2026 is in the future. We will deal with that this time next year.

A medium-term expenditure framework was published. It was developed by the Minister and his Department over the summer. The framework looks at the fact that the Government broke its own rule every year it has been in office and is about trying to learn the lessons from that. Now the Minister comes along at the end of the year as part of a collective looking for €2 billion. I remember times when the total budget was €2 billion. Surely, those in government have learned no lessons whatsoever.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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We absolutely have, and that is why the medium-term expenditure framework has been fundamental to future budgetary planning. There were significant in-year pressures which it was important for the Government to respond to and which informed the budgetary process for next year in terms of the gaps that arose in certain demand-driven areas. Whether in health, housing or education, there were additional pressures. We sought in budget 2026 to stabilise those areas in the context of the expenditure drivers, which have been clear in the look-back exercise.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister obviously did not learn the lesson this year after he published the framework, because he would not be-----

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The framework was to inform the medium-term fiscal plan and the broader decisions made as part of budget 2026.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I presume the purpose was also to inform spending in this year, or did the Minister just decide to write 2025 off?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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No. Specific pressures arose which we are seeking to address through the Supplementary Estimates. The trade-offs we made and the priorities identified in respect of budget 2026 were to stabilise the base positions of a number of Departments. That will help mitigate the scale of what has occurred this year.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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That has been the genuine----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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So, if the base is fixed, there should not be overruns in the future.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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It is not only the base. It is also about correctly addressing the demand drivers which exist and which are clear.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister claims that is what he has done and that is why he has made the decision. Workers know they are worse off but the Minister is claiming this is why it was done. Barring a pandemic, a war or some other issue outside of our control, can the Minister say, as the Minister for public expenditure whose responsibility it is to make sure there are no overruns, that there will be no overruns next year, or at least no overruns in excess of €500 million? Let us give the Minister €500 million to play with. Can he make that commitment?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The budgetary strategy we implemented this year will lead to a much-reduced risk next year in the four or five areas which have contributed to the scale of the Supplementary Estimates. These are the disability, transport, education, health and housing Votes. We doubled the current expenditure allocation for the Department of housing in budget 2026 compared to budget 2025. There was a €600 million allocation. That acknowledges the huge demand for homeless services, which it was important to respond to and for which we provided greater headroom and adequacy in budget 2026. We have significantly corrected the demand drivers which contribute to the scale of these Supplementary Estimates. I think they will be much reduced in the future. The focus has been on having adequacy and credibility in overall fiscal planning. I took that very seriously in the work I did-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Brilliant. That is what I want to focus on: credibility. The Minister has said a lot, but he will not answer the question I asked. Can he guarantee, barring any external shock, that there will not be overruns next year of more than €500 million euro? This is his job. Can he guarantee that will be the case?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I think they will be significantly reduced. The work I will be doing next year in terms of public financial procedures-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister said they will be significantly reduced. Can he guarantee-----

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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That is the first principle. Second-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Minister willing to stake his reputation and credibility on this? He talked about credibility. We know about external shocks. If such shocks occur, there will be pressures. Barring external shocks, has the Minister brought forward a budget which he can guarantee will not involve overruns of over €500 million? Every year since he has been in office, along with Paschal in the past, Departments have run billions of euro over budget.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The budget strategy for 2026 will significantly reduce the scale of Supplementary Estimates.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is political speech. There is no accountability. If it was credible, the Minister would have done it. It is his job.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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It is. The reason - if the Deputy will allow me to answer - is that we are enhancing the control environment across Departments and will be setting out new public financial procedures-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister be shocked if the overrun next year is €1 billion?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The scale of Supplementary Estimates needs to decrease significantly.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister be shocked if the overrun next year is €1 billion? What would it say about his job as Minister for public expenditure if it is that amount?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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We will be working to reduce it significantly.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister will not answer the question. He will not be shocked. Will he be shocked?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The scale of Supplementary Estimates is too high. In budget 2026, I have worked to address the gap that existed and the demand nature of some services.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I know what the Minister is saying. However, the Dáil will be voting on Report Stage of the Finance Bill at midnight and the Minister for public expenditure cannot even say he will be shocked if there is an overrun of €1 billion next year. That is the lack of credibility when it comes to what the Government brings forward in terms of budgets.

Every single year, including this year, we have massive overruns.

I need to move on to the Minister of State, who has responsibility for the OPW. I will do so briefly because I know others want to come in.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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We are tight on time.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I know. I have three brief questions. There is a big Supplementary Estimate. I heard what the Minister of State said in regard to some schemes that we are trying to get unlocked, so I will not repeat that. There are a couple of things. The Minister of State mentioned the ownership of courthouses. The roof of the courthouse in Donegal town fell in. That is how bad it is. It does not exist any more and the court is now in Ballyshannon. The OPW was to carry out an assessment but perhaps the Minister of State is not across the detail of this. I ask that it be expedited. It is not acceptable that we have a situation where the roof has fallen in on a courthouse and we do not know when it is going to be repaired. It is great to see good courthouses. The courthouse at Letterkenny was done and is a great facility. Although we are trying to stay out of those places, it is great for the people who have to go in and do their jobs there. The courthouse in Donegal town needs to be sorted. That is my first point.

The Minister of State talked about flood relief schemes, which have been the driver of some of the overrun, although not all. Others talked about issues concerning the EU Presidency and forecasting staff, and I completely agree with the points made. However, Donegal is still stuck with regard to a number of flood relief schemes. I have invited the Minister of State to Donegal to see a number of projects, and I hope he will be able to take up that invitation. I ask him to respond on that.

The final issue is the vacant premises that we have seen, particularly the use of the upper premises on O'Connell Street. Is that still an issue for the OPW?

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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First, the courthouse is a matter for the Courts Service but I will look into it. I will engage with the Courts Service and come back to the Deputy.

Second, regarding the flood relief schemes, the Deputy is right about Donegal. I was probably the person who entered Donegal at the time of the last heavy floods, and I put money forward. I will work closely with Donegal County Council, as I have with every local authority. The Deputy is right. The Minister of State, Deputy Charlie McConalogue, asked me this morning about going to Donegal. I will fix a date. Deputy Doherty spoke to me last night to try to get me up there before Christmas. I am not saying “No” to him and I am working towards that.

Third, the empty buildings are being passed over to TII as part of the metro service.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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For the information of the Minister of State, the Courts Service states on its website that it is the OPW that has to carry out the assessment. I ask the Minister of State to check with the OPW whether the assessment has been done, and the Courts Service will take the next step.

Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
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If it has engaged with us to carry out the assessment, we will do that. I will revert to the Deputy.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State and his officials.