Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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This amendment relates to the advisory notice. We propose a change in the Act by a regulation. This notice will be a notification to water services authorities that a treatment system is causing or is likely to cause a risk to human health or to the environment. The authority must issue an advisory notice within 21 days. I assume the inspector would make a visit prior to the notice being issued. The advisory notice would set out in detail the considerations for the particular treatment system and whether it posed a threat to human health or to the environment. The notice will direct the owner to take the necessary remedial actions and will specify a timeframe for completion of those measures.

The Bill does not outline the timeframe. For example, in France in 2007, a similar type of system was introduced to register septic tanks but the timeframe permitted for owners was four or five years during which they were to bring their septic tanks up to standard. It may be unfair to make this comparison given that France is a more urbanised country and there are thousands of hectares of unoccupied land while our countryside is well populated.

We have an issue with the advisory notice and the timeframe. In our view, these should be discussed by the Oireachtas prior to the enactment of the Bill. It is wrong to criminalise people or to make non-compliance with the advisory notice an offence. There are many reasons for non-compliance. People will be unable to comply with the advisory notice if substantial works are required to upgrade septic tanks to the necessary standard. According to the Department's own financial breakdown accompanying the Bill, a septic tank would cost approximately €4,000 and more advanced work could increase the cost up to €17,000 when installation of the system is taken into consideration. How is it reasonable to expect someone to carry out such work without the assistance of a retrofitting grant scheme?

The advisory notice and the work agenda is set out along with a timeframe for the work to be completed and it is to be compulsory for local authorities to issue the notice within 21 days of a notification from the agency. This needs to be discussed further. Instead of signing the timeframe under regulation, the Minister should allow for a discussion in this House and more specific details about the advisory notice should be provided. We will press a further amendment to provide that non-compliance with an advisory notice should not constitute an offence under the Bill, given that many people are struggling financially and they will not be able to meet the rigid specifications under this legislation.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am only introducing what is standard practice in legislation. In addition, all matters relating to regulations are laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas and each House has an opportunity to accept or reject them within 21 days.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I know there was a regulation. A very odd process was adopted for a regulation that was signed by the two Ministers, Deputies Hogan and Coveney, on 8 September 2011, whereby the wetlands directive was signed into regulation.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That has nothing to do with this amendment.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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That is an example where public consultation began afterwards. That is putting the cart before the horse.

We are pressing the amendment. We believe it is only right and proper that the specifics in regard to this will be discussed before the Oireachtas. A situation cannot be left wide open and open-ended regarding the signing of a regulation. I do not point the finger in particular at the Minister, Deputy Hogan. Any Minister of the day is able to sign regulations and bring in new dates or new criteria. In this instance it was dates relating to the advisory notice and the manner in which the advisory notice in question might lead to an offence later on by an individual who cannot meet the demand of the price.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Houses will have an opportunity to accept or reject it.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is amendment No. 3 being pressed?

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Amendment No. 4 is out of order because the subject matter is outside the scope of the Bill.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I would like it to be noted that I do not agree with the Chair's ruling.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Okay. That is no problem.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 5:

In page 4, line 37, after "systems')" to insert "apart from county Cavan".

I am suggesting an amendment to the proposed new section 70B(1), which provides that "each water services authority shall establish and maintain a register of domestic waste water treatment systems situated within its functional area". In general, we have no problem with that. If the register system is to operate effectively, a system of registration will be needed at local level. I will not go into the technical detail of the judgment of the European Court of Justice in the case of Commission of the European Communities v. Ireland, other than to say the court found that Ireland, with the exception of County Cavan, was not in compliance with the 1975 directive, as amended in 1991. The judgment set out the various sections with which Ireland was failing to comply, namely, sections 4 and 8.

The point we are trying to make is that the European Commission has recognised that Cavan County Council is complying with the directive as a result of a by-law it adopted in 2004. The by-law was based on the 1996 guidelines of the Environmental Protection Agency. Can the Minister clarify if the same guidelines will be adopted for this legislation? As a result of the action taken by Cavan County Council in 2004, some 25% of septic tanks in the county were found not to meet the standard. The average cost of upgrading the one in four tanks that did not meet the Cavan standards, which were based on the 1996 Environmental Protection Agency guidelines, was approximately €2,500. I guarantee the House that if we adopt the 2009-10 Environmental Protection Agency guidelines, significantly more than 25% of septic tanks will not meet the standard. My learned colleague from County Cavan, Senator Wilson, will be able to speak in much more detail about the approach that was adopted in his county and was later found to meet the standards used by the European Court of Justice in its judgment. Why should a county that meets the requirements of the judgment of the European Court of Justice, and faces no fines as a result, be covered under this legislation? Why should further financial burdens be placed on people who have upgraded their septic tanks since 2004?

It is relevant to mention that when the European Court of Justice ruled on the case that was taken by the European Commission against Ireland, it pointed out that the introduction of a registration system is required. That is what the Minister is trying to achieve in this section. It also pointed out that a desludging programme would be relevant under Article 12 of the European directive. Therefore, we are proposing that each septic tank should be eligible for free desludging each year, in line with Article 12 of the 1975 directive. Such a programme should be put in place before we proceed further, even if it would have cost implications. Some of our amendments were ruled out of order because of the cost implications associated with them. It would be better to try to correct deficiencies in septic tanks by putting in place a desludging programme. The Environmental Protection Agency recognises that septic tanks that are desludged on a periodic basis work more effectively. They operate more effectively if the sludge is taken from the top of the tank. Would that not be considered before legislation is passed to force people to bring tanks up to standard?

Perhaps the Minister can advise the House whether he is willing to accept this amendment. Can he clarify whether Cavan County Council is meeting the current standards as we speak? Will the standards the Minister is proposing to introduce by regulation under this legislation be the same as those being applied by Cavan County Council? Does the Minister intend to adopt the only other guidelines he can adopt, which are the 2009-10 Environmental Protection Agency guidelines? Will every one of the 475,000 septic tanks in this country be dealt with retrospectively under those guidelines? I am a little confused about whether this will be implemented retrospectively. This Bill suggests that it will. If that is the case, the implication is that every septic tank in the country will have to meet today's standards. If I am correct, the ruling of the European Court of Justice means that water courses from all septic tanks should be kept clean from today onwards. If that objective is to be achieved, then it would-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator could talk about this on the section. This amendment is specific, however.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I am referring to the services authority, the register of domestic wastewater treatment systems and whether Cavan met the directive's standards. The 1996 guidelines set by the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, would satisfy the European Court of Justice. It actually referred to this arrangement in its ruling. It would also be less of a financial burden on the taxpayer if a grant scheme were introduced to meet upgrade costs.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, a Chathaoirligh.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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Senator Wilson, the eminent expert.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Landy for that but he should reserve his judgment until after my contribution.

As Senator Ó Domhnaill stated, Cavan was exempted from the European Court of Justice ruling. The court cited the example of Cavan County Council which introduced by-laws in 2004 on water pollution to implement a complete system of management of septic tanks and individual wastewater treatment systems, both old and new. The by-laws include a requirement that every wastewater treatment system comply with the EPA manual on treatment systems for single houses and that inspections be carried out at least every seven years. The Commission, in taking the case against Ireland, had conceded that these by-laws in Cavan had constituted an adequate legal mechanism for complying with the directive and, therefore, excluded Cavan as part of the subject matter of the legal action.

The Minister will be aware of these by-laws. I will not go through them in detail, line by line, unless he wishes me to do so.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Please do.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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The Cavan County Council by-laws state that it is prohibited to discharge any wastewater or effluent from any on-site wastewater treatment or disposal system to any ditch, stream, pond, lake, watercourse, drain, surface water or, where discharge exceeds five cu. m in any 24-hour period, into groundwater, other than in accordance with a valid discharge licence. County Cavan has plenty of lakes and rivers and these by-laws have been very effective in protecting them. As Senator Ó Domhnaill outlined, initially 25% of septic tanks inspected failed. The by-laws stated, "A person who contravenes a provision of these by-laws shall be guilty of an offence pursuant to section 40 of the Local Government Act 1994", making them liable on summary conviction of a fine of up to €1,270. Under the 2010 Fines Act, this fine will become a class C fine. Once that Act commences, the fine on summary conviction will be €2,500. That is half the maximum fine proposed by the Minister in this Bill.

Why does the Minister not compel each local authority to introduce similar by-laws instead of introducing this legislation? It would be a more sensible approach and achieve what is required under the ruling without the heavy-handed approach this Bill will visit on the 475,000 septic tank owners and 1.2 million people covered by it.

While Cavan is unique in many respects and is one of the finest counties of the 32 and certainly of the 26 over which the Minister has jurisdiction, it is only fair the other 25 counties have the opportunity to introduce their own by-laws. County Cavan has already proved this can be successfully done. I respectfully request the Minister takes this amendment into consideration.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I do not know as much about County Cavan and its by-laws as Senator Wilson does, but it does sound peculiar that in this relatively recent decision of the European Court of Justice, Cavan was found not to be in breach of the directive. Europe has given a gold star to Cavan for implementing its by-laws in 1994. I envy the council and its public representatives for going down that road then. Obviously, other councils should have done so.

The kernel of this issue is which particular guidelines will be followed in the legislation. Three sets of criteria can be applied to this Bill, the EPA guidelines from 2009 and 2004 and the Cavan County Council by-laws. If the latter is a good benchmark for implementing the directive, why then in these difficult times should the Department go the extra mile to be best boys in the class rather than comply with the Cavan guidelines from 15 years ago?

My main concern is we are somewhat in the dark as to which criteria will apply with this legislation. The information I received from the EPA is that it will insist on the most modern, technical and up-to-date criteria available to it. These will be far more stringent than the ones used successfully in Cavan. They will also mean costly upgrades of septic tanks and wastewater systems for property owners.

The criteria to be used must be declared now. The criteria successfully used in Cavan, which comply with the EU directive, are a good benchmark and should be adopted by other local authorities. Under the Minister's proposals, maximum fines stand at €5,000 whereas under the Cavan by-laws, the maximum fine is €2,500. If the EPA criteria are used - I fear they will be - then the bar will have been raised for over 400,000 septic tank owners and will be much higher than the one contained in the Cavan County Council by-laws. It would be refreshing if the Minister declared his hand now and confirmed the 2009 EPA guidelines will be the template for this legislation. The most recent EPA guidelines will be the template for the new proposals. If that is the case, the bar will be considerably higher. People are worried about how much this will cost and where the tanks will go, etc. It is a valid argument. Perhaps it is correct to go down that road and use the most efficient and up to date guidelines.

Cavan County Council was given a clean bill of health under the EU directive. Where do the remaining 25 counties stand? Have their local authorities been neglectful in not going down the same road as Cavan County Council? If so, why did they not do so? I recall attending a meeting of county managers where progress was discussed. Why did the other local authorities not follow what was done in County Cavan? At the time, it was a brave move. Several hundred beautiful lakes in Cavan were polluted and there was deep concern about damage to fish stocks and so on. The local authority was steered to take action to protect the environment, which it did successfully. Perhaps it is not appropriate to the amendment but why did the other local authorities not follow the lead of Cavan County Council? It is not fair to say successive Governments neglected to force them to do so. Councils can be proactive sometimes.

Putting on my legal hat, local authorities will not be exempt from blame when the mud hits the fan down the road. When reality has to be faced, some local authorities will have questions to answer because if they granted planning permission ten, 15 or 20 years ago and said the septic tank and the percolation system on the site were appropriate and met proper standards, they cannot come along and say the legislation has changed and the system has to be upgraded. Local authorities are not exempt and if they are in difficulty, that will rebound on the Department. That is why the Minister should reflect on where this will lead down the road because each householder has constitutional rights. This is another diminution of rights. Under the Constitution, landowners have immense powers to protect their property. This rolls further in more ways than one and I will revisit this later.

I have raised a number of issues. Senators Wilson and Ó Domhnaill have put their case on the amendment better than I have but there are questions about where we go and what guidelines should be followed in future.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I knew if I waited long enough in this debate that Fianna Fáil Members would eventually contradict themselves and that has happened with this amendment.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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There is a long way to go yet.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I have now discovered a total lack of sincerity on their part about doing anything on this legislation. They started out totally opposed to the Bill, inspections, charges and compliance with the European Court of Justice judgment and in favour of desludging as long as somebody else paid for it. Senator Wilson did not outline what people are paying in Cavan for an inspection. They pay €200 every seven years to have inspections carried out to comply with the European Court of Justice judgment. Why did he not tell us that?

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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The people are not complaining about that. They were clearly exempt from the judgement.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Under the by-laws in Cavan, it costs €200 per household for every septic tank to be inspected every seven years and desludging is paid for by the homeowner. Am I right or wrong?

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister should proceed and I will reply later.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Minister should not invite trouble.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am including County Cavan in the legislation because we need to know the location of the septic tanks and the Bill provides for a register of them. According to Senator Ó Domhnaill's amendment, it will cost householders €4,000 on average to improve their septic tanks if they have a problem under the 1996 guidelines and there will be a €200 inspection charge every seven years.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, that is misleading and false. The Minister is going away from the facts.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is not a point of order.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is way out of line. He has not listened to a word we said.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The cat is out of the bag once and for all. Fianna Fáil want us to adopt the 1996 EPA guidelines and by-laws in Cavan County Council, which provide for a €200 inspection charge on all households every seven years and a charge of €4,000 on average to upgrade septic tanks if people have a difficulty.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister should read our amendments. We propose grants, not fees. He is disallowing them anyway.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Minister without interruption.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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What was the grant scheme-----

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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We are proposing an 85% grant for all the people of the country, including those in County Cavan. The Minister should read our amendments.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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This is embarrassing for the Senator because he is responsible for tabling the amendments. He has let down his party and he has let himself down.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I am not embarrassed.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Minister should refer to the amendment. Is the amendment being pressed?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I challenge Senator Ó Domhnaill to press the amendment.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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In due course.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Cavan County Council was exempt from the European Court of Justice ruling.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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The Senator asked that the council's by-laws be implemented.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Wilson without interruption.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I stated clearly that since 2004 we have had a successful registration and inspection regime for septic tanks in County Cavan.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Correct. Is that why the Senator dislikes the Bill?

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I did not interrupt the Minister.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Wilson without interruption.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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It has been a successful registration and inspection regime.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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County Cavan does not have a registration system.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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We have. Perhaps the Minister's officials will clarify that for him.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The council does not.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we have.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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And the council imposes a €200 charge.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I know what I am talking about. We have had registration of septic tanks in County Cavan since 2004.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Wilson without interruption. The Minister will have an opportunity to respond.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Given that Cavan County Council was exempt from the European Court of Justice judgment, we took the situation into our hands successfully in 2004. The reason for the amendment is that the remaining 25 local authorities should be given the opportunity to bring in their own by-laws. Despite the bully boy tactics from the Minister and his officials on this Bill, we will continue to outline where it is flawed. The legislation is draconian and there is no need for it. Cavan County Council has proved there is no need for it because all the Minister needs to do is oblige the other local authorities to bring in by-laws.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister to the House. As spokesperson for the Labour Party, I have listened to Fianna Fáil Members for two hours and 49 minutes putting forward amendment after amendment. Having been questioned on them, they have back-pedalled faster than one could go down a hill.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We are on amendment No. 5.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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I know that. The Cathaoirleach has given a great deal of latitude to other Members.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I have ensured Senators stick to the amendments under discussion.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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The County Cavan model is referred to in the amendment. Will Senator Wilson indicate who was responsible for introducing the by-laws in Cavan? Was it the elected representatives or was it the executive board of the local authority?

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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It was the elected-----

Denis Landy (Labour)
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The Senator should allow me to finish. If it was the elected representatives, did they knowingly and willingly impose a charge of €200 on the citizens of Cavan?

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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No.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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Am I correct in stating that Senator Wilson has indicated that they did not do so?

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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They did not do so.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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Fine. So they introduced by-laws but did not make include any financial implications in respect of them. Was it the case that because a degree of political courage would have been required in respect of implementing the charge, the elected representatives handed over responsibility for the decision to the executive board?

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Only on this one.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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I am of the view that what we have been presented with here is ridiculous. Senator Wilson was described earlier as the expert on the Cavan model. It is obvious that the Cavan model should be consigned to one of the lakes in that county because it is absolutely disastrous for the people who live there. In his expert description and analysis of the scheme, Senator Wilson neglected to mention the most important element, namely, the charge imposed on the people of Cavan. Earlier, I described the Senator as an eminent expert. When he spoke, we expected that he would provide us with full details of the scheme. However, he did not do so. As a result, his entire argument is flawed and it will be extremely difficult to sit here for another three or four hours and listen to the debate on later amendments.

In the context of the Cavan model, the Senator referred to desludging being paid for by residents or those who own houses. His colleague urged the Minister to introduce free desludging. The Cavan model has been put forward as the greatest thing since sliced bread but the residents of that county have been asked to pay for their homes to be desludged. This is absolutely laughable.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Tá an cosúlacht air go bhfuil-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Senator should speak in English as well.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Is Éireannach mise. I am an Irish citizen-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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So am I.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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-----and I am entitled to speak in Irish in the House if I so wish.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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That is fine. However, I would like to hear this particular contribution from the Senator in both languages.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I will also make my contribution in English-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill, without interruption.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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-----given that the Minister objects to me speaking in Irish.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I asked the Senator to speak in both languages.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister requested that the Senator speak in both languages.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Is the Minister objecting to me speaking in Irish? An féidir liom glacadhleis go bhfuil an t-Aire i gcoinne mé a bheith ag labhairt i nGaeilge i dTeach an Oireachtais?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Níl mé. Ar aghaidh leis an díospóireacht.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Tá lúcháir orm go bhfuil soiléiriú faighte air sin. Tá an Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh ag éisteacht leis an soiléiriú sin chomh maith. Tá Gaeilge mhaith aige-sin agus ag go leor Seanadóirí anseo. Tá pleidhcíocht agus cluichí ag dul ar aghaidh anseo. Tá leasú fíor-thábhachtach molta agam féin agus ag mo chomhleacaithe ar an mBille seo i dtaca le Comhairle Contae an Chabháin. Tá comhairleoirí contaethe de chuid Fhine Gael ar Chomhairle Chontae an Chábháin agus iadsan atá i gcumhacht ar an gcomhairle sin agus atá ag láimhseáil thar cionn an Chomhairle Chontae sin faoi láthair.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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There was a Fianna Fáil Party majority on the council in the period 2004 to 2005.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Is ag comhairleoirí Fhine Gael a bhfuil na huimhreacha ar an gcomhairle sin. Cén fáth, mar sin, nach bhfuil na comhairleoirí céanna sin sásta an táille €200 a ísliú do €50? Cén neamart atá déanta de chomhairleorí contaethe Fhine Gael i gContae an Chábháin, mar sin.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Why did the Senator table the amendment?

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Tá mé ag iarraidh é sin a mhíniú.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Why did the Senator table it?

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Bhí an treoir a tháinig ón chás a bhí ann idir an Choimisiún agus Éire an-soiléir go raibh an Cúirt ag rá nach raibh Éire ag cloí leis na rialacha faoi ailt 4 agus 8, ach go raibh Contae an Chabháin ag cloí leo. Bhí Contae an Chabháin ag cloí leis na treoirlínte a leagadh síos ag an Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, i 1996. Níl aon soiléiriú faighte ag an Teach nó an Baill an Tí ar cad iad na treoirlínte a bhfuil an t-Aire ag dul a úsaid san mBille úr nuair a thiocfaidh sé i bhfeidhm. Ach an tuigbheáil atá againn ó na daoine proifisiúnta san earnáil phríobháideach agus san earnáil phoiblí go bhfuil an t-Aire ag dul i dtoil leis na treoirlínte a tháinig ón Choimisiún i 2009 agus a cuireadh i bhfeidhm ag an EPA i 2009 agus 2010. Sin iad na treoirlínte a bhfuil an t-Aire chun glacadh leo. Dá rachadh an t-Aire leis na treoirlínte atá á úsáid i gContae an Chabháin ní bhéadh siad chomh holc le treoirlínte 2009 nó 2010.

An mbéadh Seanadóirí ar thaobh an Rialtais sásta na moltaí go leir atá ins an mBille a fheiceáil? Tá sé molta againn-ne go mbéadh baint sloda aon uair ar fáil do gach teach sa tír, nach mbéadh táille ar aon teach agus nach mbéadh aon táille ar sheirbísiú a dhéanamh agus go mbéadh deontas suas go dtí 85% ar fáil do dhuine a bhfuil dabhach séarachais aige chun é a thabhairt suas go dtí an chaighdéan.

Bhéadh sin go léir molta do gach teach sa tír, ach amháin i gContae an Chabháin. Bhíóomar ag iarraidh soiléiriú a fháil ón Aire.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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What the Senator is saying relates more to the section than to the amendment. The latter is specific in the context of the Cavan model.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Cén fáth go bhfuil Contae an Chábháin le bheith clúdaithe faoin mBille seo má tá Coimisiún agus Cúirt na hEorpa sásta leis an obair atá acu i gContae an Chabháin? Cén fáth go mbéadh na treoirlínte úra de dhíth?

I will now speak in English in order to explain the position to those who may not have understood what I said in Irish.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We do not understand what the Senator says in English either.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill, without interruption.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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What was said earlier in respect of Senator Wilson was very disingenuous. The Senator was trying to refer to the position in Cavan, the county in which he lives. The point he was making is critical in the context of the legislation. The Minister was being disingenuous in respect of those of us on this side of the House. We are not objecting to the legislation.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Senators opposite are doing so.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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We are objecting to the fees and the monitoring system that are being introduced and to the sweeping powers being given to inspectors. We also object to the powers the Minister is giving to himself in the context of signing regulations whenever he sees fit.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Those opposite voted against the Bill on Second Stage.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Of course we did-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill, without interruption.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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-----because we do not agree with the Bill in its current format.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Those opposite are against the principle which underpins the Bill.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill, without interruption.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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We do not agree with the Bill in its current format. What we might do is introduce our own legislation in the new year if the Minister's stealth tax agenda continues.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Now we have it.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill should adhere to the debate on the amendment.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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We know why the Minister wants the Bill to be passed prior to the introduction of the budget.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Now we have it.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is concerned with collecting money next year.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill should adhere to the debate on the amendment.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The point of the amendment is that Cavan County Council introduced the by-laws in 2004. Those who control that council at present are members of the Fine Gael Party.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Why did the Senator table the amendment?

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Why have they not reduced the fee of €200?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Why did the Senator table the amendment?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill, without interruption.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps the Minister might talk to some of his colleagues on Cavan County Council-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am talking to the Senator and I am asking him why he tabled the amendment.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill, without interruption.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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-----and encourage them to consider reducing the fee from €200. That might be a worthwhile step to take, particularly if the Minister is so concerned about the fee which applies in Cavan being so high.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Senator should stop digging.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps the Minister should give consideration to my proposal.

The point I am trying to make is central to the Bill, which relates to the monitoring of domestic wastewater treatment systems. Cavan has had a system in place in this regard since 2004 and the Commission's judgment recognises that fact. Why, then, would Cavan be requested to re-register? The fact that the Minister is including County Cavan would have one believe that this matter does not really relate to wastewater treatment and is more about collecting revenue for the State. That is the point we are trying to make with the amendment. What happens in Cavan is a matter for the county councillors there.

Those who invested money in Cavan County Council to bring septic tanks up to the 1996 criteria will now be asked to start all that work again, possibly to meet higher standards according to the RIAI, as attached with the legislation published by the Minister's Department.

That is the point we are trying to make. We are not being disingenuous. We take exception to that because we are trying to be constructive on behalf of the 475,000 householders throughout the country who will be penalised as a result of this flawed and discriminatory legislation. That is why we raise these issues.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is being repetitive.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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We need to know the criteria on which the Minister is basing the legislation. Senator O'Donovan also referred to this. We are like pigeons flying in and out through a window. We do not know the criteria.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The amendment is specific. I call Senator Keane.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I already complimented County Cavan on what it has done. What we are trying to do now for the people of Cavan is to reduce their fee from €200 to €50. Senator Ó Domhnaill's amendment goes against that. In case he has forgotten, it states "apart from County Cavan".

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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You are proposing to raise the amount to €250.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Keane, without interruption.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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No, we are not.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Do not be disingenuous.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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We are telling the people of Cavan they will not have to pay as much under this legislation as they did under previous legislation.

On the previous amendment, Fianna Fáil Members spoke of the competency of persons engaged in inspections. County Cavan is very weak in that regard. Subsection 2 states:"shall submit an assessment by a competent person [the text does not define competent person] which assessment shall include capacity, water-tightness, construction soundness and general workings". That is very loose. Our text is much tighter. It will-----

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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That is why the cost will be greater. The Senator is arriving at the point but in a different way. The people of Cavan will pay hundreds and thousands of extra euro under this legislation.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill, allow Senator Keane to speak without interruption.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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No wonder Senator Ó Domhnaill is upset. When the people of Cavan-----

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Keane should talk to her party's councillors in County Cavan.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I say "Well done" to the people of Cavan for bringing in the regulation. What Fine Gael and the Labour Party are now trying to do for the people of Cavan is to reduce their fee. If Senator Ó Domhnaill is against that, he should push it.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Do not fool the people.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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There is just one thing before the noble Minister rises to his feet and dazzles us again. Fair play to the Minister, he is a dab hand at creating confusion, like the Kilkenny hurlers who sidestep us with the swift action of the hurley and the ball.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It is an open goal.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Constructive good opposition can never be confused with what the Minister considers to be total opposition. We have many constructive proposals if the Minister will bear with us.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Where are they?

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Through the Cathaoirleach, I warn Senator Keane it would be very unwise to tell her colleagues on Cavan County Council that nothing will befall them other than a reduction in the fees as a result of this Bill. If they are under that illusion or persist so, the Senator will get a rude awakening in the coming years. I refer to Cavan although I have no experience of it in regard to this area other than the judgment of Europe. My colleagues tell me that under the new legislation there will be adverse financial effects. Ní foláir do mo chara bheith cúramach ar an bpointe seo.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Táimid an-chúramach.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The cat is out of the bag, lads.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has a lot of cats.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Opposition Senators have given us the open goal.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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A cat retired the other night.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We have so many with whom to replace him.

A charge of €200 is mentioned by Fianna Fáil Party Members as well as inspections every seven years, costing another €200. According to Senator Ó Domhnaill, there is an upgrade costing €4,000 if we adopt the Cavan system.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I did not say that.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Minister, without interruption.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It is because these regulations are so onerous-----

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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That is the Minister's system. I will point this out at the end.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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-----I reject the amendment.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is it on a point of order or on the amendment?

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for confusing the Minister.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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The Senator has confused himself.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Senator is caught.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I stated the average cost in County Cavan was €2,500. Under the Minister's Bill, under the RIAI, the average would be €4,000 for septic tank upgrade or up to €17,000 for the package treatment system.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Senator has not yet seen my regulations.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I will talk all night to the Minister about the work that must be done because I spent the weekend in the company of-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Senator is talking nonsense.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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As a point of record, today I talked to a member of Fine Gael from County Cavan, who is competent, qualified and has read the Bill. That member fears the Bill and is happier with the current system.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Did you tell the truth?

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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By extension, I am sure the councillors in County Cavan will be looking for Seanad votes in some years' time and will realise the full implications of the measures the Minister proposes tonight.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The way the Senator is going so will he.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Minister wish to add anything?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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No, I rest my case.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is the amendment being pressed?

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Yes. The Minister will kill the people in County Cavan.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Amendment No. 6 has been ruled out of order as it would impose a charge on the Revenue.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 7:

In page 4, between lines 46 and 47, to insert the following:

"(3) Any other information required will be specified before the Bill is passed and will be of no cost to the owner.".

I am very disappointed amendment No. 6 cannot be moved.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I heard there has been a split in the Opposition since I left.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister, Deputy Hogan, is now the one caught because in that amendment we are proposing the de-sludging plan and the grants, which would resolve all the issues throughout the country, including in County Cavan, but it has been ruled out of order.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator must speak to amendment No. 7.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Amendment No. 7 relates to most of 70B(3) in section 4. Under the legislation as it is currently construed costs will be imposed on septic tank owners. When they get the provisional notice from the local authority they will be forced to apply to the water services authority in whose function area the treatment system is situated to have the treatment system, which includes a septic tank, entered onto the register of domestic wastewater treatment systems which will be maintained by the local authority.

I refer to section 4(3)(a), (b), (c) and (d). We are proposing that any information the local authority will provide will be at no cost to the septic tank owner or the householder because there is an array of hidden charges built in to this legislation that could result in substantial costs to the individuals who may need to seek information. The Minister has acknowledged that he will make planning an exemption for the septic tank charges and he has not ruled out the possibility of ecological costs for persons who have a septic tank in a natural heritage area, NHA, a special protection area, or a special area of conservation, SAC. I checked the costs with an ecologist in Donegal and they generally start at approximately €750 for an ecological report. If one is located in a wetlands area - under the Minister's directive signed on 8 September most of the west is now a wetland area - the cost could include an environmental impact assessment if the land is within certain a certain zone.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It is planning exempt. It does not come into it.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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It overrides SPAs and everything.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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In case the Senator does not know, it is part of a planning application.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill, without interruption.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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We will want to see that written into the legislation. We will want to make sure, line by line, that environmental impact assessments and any environmental assessments or ecological reports are exempt for any works that have to be carried out. If that is the case I am sure the Minister will have no difficulty in accepting this amendment to the effect that the householder will not be expected to bear any further costs apart from making the application, for which we propose there will be no registration fee, and that there will be no other additional costs hidden in this section.

Section 4(3) states:

An application under this section shall---

(a) be made in writing or by electronic means, [we have no difficulty with that because if it was only by electronic means it would make it very difficult for people who may not have access to a computer]

(b) specify the name of the applicant and the address at which he or she normally resides, [we have no difficulty with that]

(c) specify the address at which the domestic waste water treatment system is situated, [we have no difficulty with that]

(d) contain such other information as may be prescribed, [we have major difficulty with that because that is as long as it is wide] and

(e) in the case of the application under subsection (2), be accompanied by the prescribed fee.

We have tabled another amendment on that because we are not in agreement with it. The information must be specified before this Bill can be passed, regardless of any other relevant information the householder would be required to send to the local authority.

The Minister might clarify when he intends to introduce a Government amendment to the effect that there will be no planning charges, no environmental impact assessment charges and no SPA, NHA or SAC implications in terms of any septic tank located in or near an SPA or a wetlands area. If that is the case questions may arise in terms of the classification of those areas, and I am sure we will have people such as those in An Taisce jumping up and down. The alternative that we would accept is that if there is a requirement to have those reports the Department would pay for them. However, we favour no charges or cost in this area to the householder or the consumer.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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Except in County Cavan.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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He wants the County Cavan experience in the entire country.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill, without interruption.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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It is Senator Landy's councillor colleagues in County Cavan who can make the decision.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill, without interruption.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Fine Gael councillors in County Cavan, the Senator's colleagues, will not relish the prospect of a €250 fee instead of the €200 they currently pay.

A Senator:

Why is the Senator telling untruths?

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The difficulty in County Cavan-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Senator should table an amendment.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill, without interruption. We are on amendment No. 7, Senator.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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-----is the extra thousands of euro it will cost each septic tank owner as a result of the new guidelines being brought in by the Minister. That is where the difficulty lies.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is being repetitive.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is tinkering around the edges if he is talking about €50 or €200. We are proposing the amendment because we believe there should be no charges. There is a way of doing it. There is €431 million in the Minister's budget this year for the maintenance and servicing of urban wastewater treatment systems. Some of that money should be diverted to rural Ireland. Unfortunately, we did not have the opportunity to put forward our de-sludging plan for every house in the country that would come out of that fund. We are asking the Minister, in terms of the retrofit scheme, to scrap the €2.7 billion project in north County Dublin-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, you are moving from the amendment.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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-----and put that money into the upgrading of septic tanks in rural Ireland to make sure that the ordinary people of this country who work hard in rural Ireland will not have to pay the costs of this draconian legislation.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I hope the Minister will reassure the House that the form of registration, when it eventually sees the light of day, will not win the prize for difficult English. Whenever most Departments get their hands on forms, irrespective of whichever party is running the Administration, I always have the impression that there is a group of people who gleefully look on form creation a little like getting sweets for Christmas, in other words, they try to make it as difficult and complicated as possible for the ordinary citizen. The Minister has spelled out in good detail exactly what will be required under the registration but I would like an assurance that the form of registration will, in the interests of clarity, be simple, straightforward and will not have any addendums, appendices or references to subsections.

I am concerned about that because there is a reference in the Bill to the phrase, "contains such information as may be prescribed". The Minister might enlighten us as to his thinking on what other information might be involved. I can think of one item of information in the context of this debate on the amendment. I am not an expert on septic tanks but we have had septic tanks since the early 1960s and treatment plants have changed considerably in that time. The more modern septic tank is a much more efficient machine than those of a few decades ago. Does the Minister believe it will be of benefit to the various water authorities, which are the local authorities in this case, to have information on the type of septic tank or is that something that will follow later in terms of the inspection?

I am not sure how the inspection will identify the type of septic tank, and whether the Minister believes that will be relevant. If technology has moved on to the point where there is now little or no pollution from the more modern septic tanks, the inference is that there are older septic tanks that are leaking and causing pollution. Is that the type of information about which the Minister is concerned?

I am concerned - I suppose this is inevitable as it happens in almost every Bill of this type - with the phrase "prescribed fee" in respect of an application under subsection (2). That is a great get-out clause for Ministers. I appreciate the registration fee will be made clear but why did the Minister not prescribe it in this legislation and state what he has been outlining? It raises the issue of whether successive Ministers for the environment will use this as another tax raising method or another form of revenue for the Department.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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I oppose the amendment. If Senator Ó Domhnaill does not tell the people of Donegal that he proposed a €200 charge, I will not tell them.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Apart from County Cavan. The Senator should read the amendment.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Harte, we dealt with that in a previous amendment.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has not read it right.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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I wanted to make the point. In fairness to the Sinn Féin Party we saw the own goal. We do not always agree on issues but we do agree on an issue that is clear and straight.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That was on the previous amendment. We are on amendment No. 7.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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I agree but I could not lose the chance.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I call Senator Ó Clochartaigh.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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I am delighted. I will not tell the radio station about that.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Is mór agam deis a fháil labhairt ar an rún seo. Tá cuid de na rudaí faoin Bhille seo sách doiléir....sin an pointe a bhí mé ag iarraidh a dhéanamh.

I welcome the robust debate that is taking place and the clarification and bona fides of the Minister. I believe he is telling us how he sees it and how it will play out. In recent years we have had different Ministers for the environment with different opinions. What is written in the legislation is how it will be interpreted and it can be interpreted in two different ways. How the Minister intends to interpret may be one way. We need to future proof the legislation in order that people cannot be caught out and that Ministers with a different agenda might take a different meaning. Although the Minister has clarified a certain number of points in the legislation, what we hear when discussing this issue with people at all the public meetings across the country is that this is a very complicated Bill. When one tries to read through the EU directives on which it is based, they are complicated and point one from one directive to another. It is a complicated process to go through.

Our job as legislators is to make the Bill as simple as possible for the people whom it will affect. The system to be put in place must be clear. Therefore, the information that has been alluded to, specifically around the specification that will be expected of the ground water in the vicinity of the domestic water treatment system that is in place, should be made clear before the Bill is enacted. The Minister should tell the House his intentions for those specifications so that if people want to conduct their own test tomorrow morning they can get somebody to come out and check the water to ascertain whether it is up to standard. We need to remove any vagueness around this issue so that people are clear where they stand on it.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I suppose we have a good deal of misinformation about this legislation, starting with a €300 annual inspection charge. It is a while ago since we heard that but it was dropped. Now we have the Cavan Fianna Fáil €200 inspection charge, arising from an amendment tabled by the Fianna Fáil Party, whereas I am seeking no more than €50 for a registration charge. At least we have clarity on that issue.

The purpose of the guidelines to be drawn up is to ensure the septic tank is working, minimum standards, and no danger to public health, the environment or ground water quality. There are no guidlines in place that meet those requirements. If I were to adhere to existing guidelines I would make the requirements too onerous, unlike Senator Ó Domhnaill who wants to make the requirements more onerous. The 1996 EPA guidelines provided for a €200 inspection charge but I do not want to do that, hence I opposed that amendment. We are interested only in meeting the basic requirements of the ECJ judgement in having an inspection and monitoring system in place that meets that judgment of good practice in regard to public health and the environment. That argument will not suit everybody especially those who go around in the Senator's constitutency and others talking about regulatioins that do not exist. They speak about introducing measures that I have no intention of introducing but I cannot stop those people. If people want to perpetuate this type of nonsense I cannot stop them.

I cannot stipulate a fee in the Bill - no Government does that. The fee will be no more than €50 for registration purposes. There is a standard catchall phase included in legislation for the same purpose. I am doing no more or no less than what is standard practice in law. I have no other particular proposal in mind. The planning regulations to implement that will be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas and one has 21 days, as part of a statutory instrument, in which to deal with them. The planning regulations, about which Senator Mooney is concerned, will be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas.

I do not consider the amendment before the House to be appropriate. The details to be requested, when registering, are under consideration by the Department and the EPA. The registration will be kept as simple and as straightforward as possible. I agree with Senator Mooney that there is a temptation to seek more information than that relating to septic tanks or households when sending notices to the door or filling in a form. I will look at that form before it is disseminated to households.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate the Minister's reply. It strikes me as strange that if we have been found to be in contravention of an ECJ ruling, which obviously lays down a certain standard for water quality, that the ruling did not indicate a proper water quality standard to be adhered to. Therefore, it is strange that officials in his Department would not have said that when the water quality is checked, this is the standard we should be looking at. It is not unreasonable to ask that be made available to people in advance, as part of the discussion around this Bill, it is quite fair. Some 36 years have elapsed since this directive was introduced in 1965 and successive Governments failed to implement it. Cavan has introduced some regulation which states that water quality is at a standard that would not contravene the ECJ ruling. It must be clear from that what the water quality level should be and that should be made available as part of the discussion on the Bill.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Sin go díreach an pointe céanna a bhí mé féin ag dul a dhéanamh faoin treoir a bheidh ag teacht ó thaobh an creitéir a bheidh á leagadh síos ar gach dabhach séarachais nach cuid de scéim é ó thaobh na hoibre atá an Roinn a lorg chun an dabhach a thabhairt suas go dtí cibé caighdeán a leagfar síos. Cuireann sé iontas orm nach bhfuil na treoirlínte foilsithe agus nach bhfuil eolas ar bith againn sa Seanad ar na treoirlínte sin a bhaineann leis an reachtaíocht. Sin bun agus barr an scéil. In respect of what Senator Ó Clochartaigh has said, I do not mean to keep harping back to Cavan County Council which is adopting 1996 guidelines. For anybody who did not read that section and our amendment fully, part of the section reads:

Each water services authority shall establish and maintain a register of domestic waste water treatment systems situated within its functional area (in this Part referred to as a 'register of domestic waste water treatment systems').

That should apply except for County Cavan which has that system in place. It is a matter then for Cavan County Council to reduce the €50 registration fee which the Government wants to introduce. The councillors in Cavan, the people who voted for some of the Fine Gael and Labour Members on the Government benches - might not try to redue the fee to €50.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is trying to salvage his mess.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Has the Senator so little faith in the councillors who voted for members of Fine Gael and Labour in Cavan that she believeS they would carry on regardless? It is unfair to those councillors. They may not have voted for me but I would have enough respect for them to acknowledge-----

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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They did not vote for Labour.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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They may not have. The point I are trying to make is a genuine one. I am not trying to be argumentative but I am trying to establish what maintenance standards will be established for septic tanks. Can I take it the Minister is scrapping the most recent 1999-2000 EPA maintenance standards and that he will look at something else that has not yet been drawn up? What are the maintenance standards?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Yes, for the purpose of complying with the judgment.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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How are we expected to vote on something if we do not know what the criteria will be? The Bill provides that the Minister will take it in by regulation which would mean that after the Bill is passed the Minister will sign in by regulation, maintenance servicing and operating guidelines to be agreed, I assume, between the EPA and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. How can we go forward on the basis that some time in the future, a Minister will sign a regulation that will take in the standards with which 475,000 septic tank owners will have to comply? If the bar is set too high, we are in trouble. If the bar is set too low, Europe will come after us again in the courts, but there is no grant aid available to meet any update costs. That is where the problem lies with the Bill.

We agree with a registration system because it is needed. We do not agree with the fee attached to it, and this can be seen from our amendments. Before a registration system in the Bill is brought in, we want to bring in a de-sludging system, which is referred to in article 12 of the European directive. Any costs should be borne by the Department under the retrofit grants scheme up to a maximum of 85%. There is nothing in the Bill on that. Our amendments were ruled out of order.

This amendment relates to costs that can be passed on to individuals. For example, the ordnance survey maps or others may be required. As Senator Mooney has outlined, we do not know what will be on the application form. Will the individuals living alone be able to fill in the application form? Even though they do not need planning permission, will they need to go to a solicitor or a REPS planner to fill in the form? If that is the case, they could be charged at least a couple of hundred euro to get a form filled in, maps attached and sent to the local authority. There are hidden charges built into this that are not clarified.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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The Senator should send them on to me. I will look after them.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I will look after them as well, as I always do. There are 475,000 people with these systems and they will not all come to me, Senator Harte or other Members of the House. If they did, we would not be in here. The Irish Rural Dwellers Association has raised this as major fear. The IFA has also raised this as a fear and I had a long discussion with its environment committee chairman on this issue today. These hidden costs could accumulate over years and the prescribed fee, referred to under the regulation, can be increased at any given time by the Minister by signing a regulation to increase it. The €50 registration can be-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I will answer that in a minute.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps he might clarify that. There is still an issue with hidden costs associated with making an application when we do not know what the application form is yet. We have the application available in the North of Ireland that must be filled in and sent to Northern Ireland Water. There is much to be filled in on that form, but the form we expect people to fill, if this Bill is passed, would be much more onerous because it is a registration system. There is no registration system in place yet in the North of Ireland, although I understand they are looking at bringing in such a system, but the form is still quite onerous. We are expecting many elderly people in rural Ireland to fill in an application form that could be onerous, but we do not know what standards they are expected to meet thereafter. We are proposing this amendment to the Bill to defray additional costs for people when those costs could accumulate through information they may need to provide and which may not be readily available to them.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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If I am making a matter like this exempt from planning, then there are no fees. I must apologise to Senator Mooney for doing a very unusual thing. I have ensured in the primary legislation that the registration fee will be no more than €50, so that will reassure Senator Mooney, whatever about Senator Ó Domhnaill.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I was not thinking about the Minister, but about his successors.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It will require an amendment to the Act in these Houses-----

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I am sure he would have some input-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I might not be around to reduce it.

Senator Ó Clochartaigh asked about guidelines. These are listed in Section 70C of Part 4A of the Bill, which states the following.

The owner of a premises connected to a domestic waste water treatment system shall—

(a) comply with regulations made under section 70L,

(b) ensure that the system does not constitute, and is not likely to constitute, a risk to human health or the environment,

and, in particular does not—

(i) create a risk to water, air or soil, or to plants and animals,

(ii) create a nuisance through noise or odours, or

(iii) adversely affect the countryside or places of special interest,

and

(c) ensure that the system is entered on a register of domestic waste water treatment systems in accordance with section 70B.

This amends the principal Act to set out the principles with which we will comply. As I have said several times, these are new regulations, in conjunction with the EPA and the local authorities, which ensure that we have good quality ground water, that we are not contaminating ground water sources, that we are not contaminating water to an extent of risking public health, and that we are protecting the environment. These are set out quite explicitly. The Senator will have to accept that the prescriptive nature of including what he is asking cannot be put in the legislation, but will have to be put in the regulations that subsequently follow.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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They should be part of this debate so we are clear-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The regulations will subsequently be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. The Senator will then have an opportunity to debate them.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Will that happen before or after the Bill is enacted?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Bill comes first, then the regulations.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I am grateful to the Minister. That is common sense. As he outlined, specific fees are not always included in legislation, so this will go some way to allaying fears out there that there is some hidden charge on the registration fee as currently prescribed.

The date by which the treatment system must be registered will be specified in regulations to be made by the Minister. In light of the previous debate and in order to reassure those who may have difficulty in filling out the form, will the Minister request any response from the local authorities to assist people in filling in the forms? He has yet to specify the date. It could be two or three weeks from the time the notice is sent out. How does that system work? Is it about self-compliance? Do people have to contact the local authority? At the moment, there is no register. I am not too clear on this. It is a little bit vague on the information that is already with the local authorities. Perhaps there might be some obligation on the local authorities to provide assistance.

Senator Harte has spoken about a certain of category of people. Over the past 20 years since European money started coming in, bypassing elected politicians in many cases, an industry of consultants sprang up. They went around charging community groups and others for filling in forms in order to access funds. I am sure the last thing the Minister would want is to create another cottage industry that will levy an extra charge on people.

Will there be a registration period? Will it be obligatory on local authorities to provide the service, rather than discretionary?

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister. I still feel it would be great to make it clear to people what the regulation and the inspection should be in advance, but I appreciate his answer. However, it raises another question. If a person built a house 20 years ago and since then the area has been designated an SPA, an SAC, an NHA or whatever, the Minister states that there will be a planning exemption in place for such a house. Will this also cover the exemptions that would relate to an NHA, SAC and an SPA?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

In answer to Senator Mooney's question, people will have 12 months to register. They have the entire year in 2012 to register. I am sure that when public representatives, community groups and neighbours get notification of this particular matter, they will be able to assist the people next door. Some 475,000 people seem a lot but they are scattered around the country. For example, there are about 11,000 in Kilkenny. I am sure I will be able to notify them properly about what the requirements are and help them in any way I can.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Deputy John Paul Phelan will do it anyway.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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It will be easy for them to find help online.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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With regard to the question of assistance with form-filling, many people are quite capable of filling in forms, as we know from our own clinics. Sometimes people are much sharper than the local politicians. I imagine the local authorities would have information days on this. Local community groups should be encouraged to do this also, in conjunction with local authorities. This will be a new system for everyone. There are people who are afraid of form-filling, but local authorities and community groups have a background and an interest in helping them. I do not think it will be a big issue. If they cannot get the Senator on the telephone they can telephone me in Donegal. Between the two of us we can look after them all.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 8:

In page 5, to delete lines 7 and 8.

Baineann an leasú seo le alt 70B(3)(d) den Bhille. Ta sé leagtha síos sa Bhille gur féidir aon eolas breise a chur leis an iarratas agus gan é a lua i reachtaíocht. Tá sé seo tromchúiseach ionas go mbaineann impleachtaí móra leis ó thaobh costais, mar a dúirt muid cheana. Beidh an EPA, an údarás áitiúil nó an Aire in ann aon eolas breise a leagadh síos ag aon am sa todhchaí. Má táimid chun an chumhacht seo a thabhairt don Roinn - aon eolas breise a chur leis an iarratas ag aon am sa todhchaí - cruthóidh sé deacracht mór. Beidh impleachtaí ann ó thaobh eolas a chur ar fáil agus eolas a fháil. Beidh impleachtaí ann ó thaobh na coinníollacha a bhaineann le iarratas a dhéanamh. Beidh impleachtaí ann ó thaobh an costas a bhaineann le iarratas a dhéanamh. Téann sé ar aghaidh agus ar aghaidh.

This refers to a wide and sweeping subsection of section 4, that is, 70B(3)(d), which states "contain such other information as may be prescribed, and". We touched on this point earlier. If I heard the Minister correctly, he stated that if a septic tank or wastewater treatment system is located in a special protection area, a special area of conservation or a national heritage area, then no septic tank upgrade works, irrespective of whether they put in on any of the special protection areas, heritage areas or surrounding areas, would require an ecological report or other scientific report. Is that correct? How, therefore, would this meet the criteria set down in the special protection area classification? Will the Minister explain this?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Senator need not worry about that.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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No. That is great. I welcome the fact that there will be no-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I realise some of the information does not suit Senator Ó Domhnaill.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator without interruption.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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No. It is excellent and I welcome it because the implication is-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Good. It is the first time Senator Ó Domhnaill has used that word tonight.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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If the Minister is suggesting as much, I cannot understand why he will not agree to the amendment.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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What amendment?

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The amendment proposes-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Is that the Cavan amendment?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill without interruption.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister can explain his situation to Cavan but I have no wish to be in his shoes when he goes up there.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill has been caught.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill without interruption.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister might ring some of the Cavan Fine Gael councillors and ask them to reduce the fee from €200-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill put down the amendment.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill without interruption.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is agreeing with the Fine Gael councillors by not asking them. As the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government he has an obligation to direct the local authority.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Let us not forget the €200 Fianna Fáil charge.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill without interruption, please.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Fine Gael is in power in Cavan, not Fianna Fáil or Sinn Féin.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill on the amendment, please.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps the Minister will talk to the councillors in Cavan. Deputy O'Reilly was a former Member of this House.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill got caught.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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If the Minister agrees that there will be no planning charges, architect charges or charges relating to special protection areas, heritage areas or wetlands and no additional costs in these areas then I welcome the change. However, if this is the case I do not understand why the amendment cannot be accepted because the amendment states, "contain such other information as may be prescribed". What other information could be prescribed? It would be helpful to have an outline of what other information the Minister is referring to. The reference in section 70B(3)(d) is open-ended. If it could be tied down, we would accept it but there could be significant cost implications for householders by leaving it open-ended. We should get the matter tied down.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an méid atá á rá ag an Aire. Tá sé ag gealladh go leor agus ag tabhairt an-soiléiriú anocht. Sílim go bhfuil an díospóireacht seo go maith agus thar a bheith cuimsitheach. Is iontach an rud é deis ceart cainte agus deis ceart labhartha a fháil ar ceisteanna tromchúiseacha den chineál seo. Tá mé amhrasach faoin alt beag a deireann "contains such other information as may be prescribed". Sílim go bhfuil sé ag fágáil rudaí i bhfad ró-oscailte i gcead an Aire atá ann faoi láthair. Beidh an Roinn ábalta rudaí breise a chur leis an reachtaíocht seo nach bhfuil i gceist fiú ag an Aire. B'fhéidir go dtiocfaidh Aire eile ó pháirtí eile-----

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Not for a long time.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Clochartaigh, without interruption.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Tá súil agam go mbeidh saol fada ag an Aire atá againn faoi láthair. Tuigeann sé an phointe atá á dhéanamh agam. Sílim nach bhfuil gá leis an alt seo sa Bhille. Tá sé ag fágáil rudaí i bhfad ró-oscailte. Má tá rudaí breise le cur le hAcht, ba chóir go dtiocfadh an Acht sin ar ais go dtí Tithe an Oireachtais - an Seanad agus an Dáil - ionas go mbeimid in ann na rudaí sin a phlé. Mar shampla, an rud a chuireadh beagáinín imní orm, possibly, is that this is very broad and leaves it wide open for Ministers or future executives who might want to add things in which are not envisaged. We all know how that can happen.

One of the outside influences we might not have mentioned in the debate is the European influence. What if directives come from Europe which decide to designate all of Ireland as a special area of conservation or make it a national park? Some people think that will happen. Does that then become prescribed information which has to be included in this type of legislation?

I appreciate from where the Minister is coming and his bona fides. I welcome the promises he is making on the record because they clarify the situation to a certain extent. I do not agree with all the points he made. We will table amendments on Report Stage to solidify some of the promises made. This goes a step-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Senator does not have to worry about the promises I made.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Clochartaigh, without interruption Minister.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I worry about the promises made by the Government, in particular the pre-election promises.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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What I say goes.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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If the Minister wants to go that far, let us talk about some of the pre-election promises that have been made and reneged on. We will not bring that into the debate. It is important that the Minister reconsiders his decision and supports the amendment. It leaves things far too wide open in terms of responsibility and if changes to the Bill are to be made their implications should be discussed fully in the Houses.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Ba mhaith liom rud amháin a rá. Molaim Seanadóirí Ó Clochartaigh agus Ó Briain mar tá siad ag caint sa teanga Gaeilge. Molaim é sin agus ba cheart dúinn go léir bheith á dhéanamh sin. Ach, tá rud amháin le rá agam. Dá gcuirfeadh gach éinne na gutháin cluasa orthu nuair atá Seanadóirí ag caint i nGaeilge bhéimís amuigh as seo i bhfad níos tapúla mar ní bhéadh orthu rudaí a rá ach uair amháin.

I say that for the benefit of people do not have their earphones on. I congratulate Senators Ó Clochartaigh and Ó Domhnaill for speaking in Irish. To speed up matters anybody here who does not understand Irish-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We are discussing amendment No. 8.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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-----should put on their earphones and speak once only. They are doing a disservice to the language and abusing the situation.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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That is a disgrace and an outrage.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We are on amendment No. 8.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I want that comment withdrawn.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, there is nothing personal in it.

A Senator:

It has to be withdrawn as Gaeilge.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Do not be oversensitive.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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There is nothing personal.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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We should send her to the Gaeltacht for a month.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The reason this provision is included in the Bill is that the provision of any additional information could include such issues as the type of system that is already there, when it was installed and whether it is serviced regularly. It will help the EPA and local authorities to come up with what they regard an appropriate national inspection plan. There is a catch-all statement in the Bill to allow us to get that information in order that we can have a reasonable interpretation of what the general requirement is for people as part of the inspection plan. It is not mandatory but it allows us to ask for that information.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is the amendment being pressed?

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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It will be pressed. Can we have verification on the mandatory nature of the provision?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It will not be mandatory.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate what the Minister said and that the information may be of use to the EPA. However, the information required will have implications for householders.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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No. The householder already has the information. On a point of clarification, we know the householder has this information because he or she lives there. When we get the information from the householder and give it to the local authorities, we are informing them of what type of inspection has to be carried out, taking into account what is already in situ.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Our previous amendment stated any additional information which was required would have no extra cost to the householder.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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This will not either.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Why was it not accepted?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I do not know.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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It was nothing to do with the €200. It stated any additional information required would have no additional cost to the householder. The amendment should have been accepted if there is no additional cost to the householder, as the Minister just outlined.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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There is no additional cost to the householder.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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While I appreciate what the Minister is saying, I cannot accept it. We would not have to press this amendment if our last amendment was accepted. There seems to be some-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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There are a number of other speakers.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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On amendment No. 7, to which the Senator referred, any other information required will be specified before the Bill is passed, which is what he wanted me to do. I was not prepared to do that.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The response of the Minister raises an interesting scenario. He mentioned the information sought will be on the design of the facility, basic information on its maintenance-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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No.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I thought that is what he said. That was my understanding. Will people be asked when they clean the glass and keep records over a number of years? Will that be the basis for the selection of inspections?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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No.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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He indicated to us only a small proportion of those with septic tanks will be selected for inspection. How will inspections be selected? Will it be on a random basis or on the information supplied?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It might inform the fact we will not have to inspect them at all. It might help local authorities. They, with the guidance of the EPA, will pick the places to be inspected on a risk-based assessment, something they already know and are doing under the Water Services Act 2007. The basic information supplied in this case about the type of system to be registered may inform a local authority that there is no need to inspect it because it is modern and is working, based on the manufacturer's certification.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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That raises another question. I made the point on Second Stage that I would have preferred if we took a more focused and targeted view on the registration and inspection regime. We should look at areas where water courses are at risk. Such areas could be identified. Such a system works in other jurisdictions.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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That is what we are doing.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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No. The new system will register everybody.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We are on amendment No. 8.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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My point deals with the specific additional information that will be prescribed. What purpose will the information be put to? I understand, from the response of the Minister, that the risk based assessment or evaluation by the EPA will be based on risks to water courses. It already has that information because geographic areas have been identified. The only information they will get from the new system will be the address of the householder. I am anxious to know how the other information obtained will be used and can affect the individuals supplying it.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It will be used for the purpose of informing local authorities of how best to draw up the national inspection plan, no more and no less.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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The amendment is about the application form to get on the register. The Minister indicated, when pressed, that he would seek clarification of the types of information the EPA will seek, and offered some examples. Why then did he subsequently opt for a catch-all provision? Why not define the information in order to make clear the intention of this provision? There is a concern that a future Minister could misuse this legislation, for example, with title deeds, proof of ownership-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I would not misuse legislation.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I am not referring to the Minister. The amendment seeks to remove the word "prescribe". My point is that the Minister should define exactly what information the EPA can and should seek rather than going for a catch-all provision.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I do not want to delay proceedings, but I predict that the Minister will be hoisted by his own petard on this issue. He has been very clear in regard to other sections and subsections as to how the prescribed form will be rolled out. Therefore, I cannot understand why he has chosen not to spell out what is envisaged in this particular provision. What is out there that we do not know about? What is the assumption or inference behind it?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We will not know what is out there until the inspections take place. That is the point.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I cannot understand why, having gone to the trouble of making other provisions which are very detailed in regard to the application form, the Minister has thrown in this canard in regard to additional information. It is reasonable that we should seek to establish what precisely is involved here. As I said earlier in respect of the various types of septic tanks, none of us has any difficulty with ensuring the authorities get as much information as possible. All we are seeking to clarify is whether there is a hidden agenda.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister indicated that there may be a need to provide some form of drawing. I assume this refers to a drawing of the location of the septic tank and percolation area relative to the property. If that is required - I am merely giving an example of what might be envisaged in this - the likelihood is that the homeowner may not have the necessary skills to provide that information, in which case one is looking at an additional cost. My concern is that the EPA, under pressure from groups such as An Taisce, might, in its prescription of the additional information required, go far beyond what is envisaged in the legislation. That is the difficulty I have with this section.

While I appreciate what the Minister is saying, it would be far preferable to specify precisely what is being sought under this provision. He indicated that this provision might lead to lower costs for homeowners. Given that there are no fees in any event, as the Minister outlined, how could the inclusion of these additional requirements possibly lead to reduced costs? Surely they would cost nothing additional at best while, at worst, there is certainly an implication that there would be additional responsibilities and, by extension, costs on the individual. That is the source of concern in these provisions.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister's last response provided some clarification on this issue in so far as he explained that the additional information will be used by the EPA to develop a national plan. The purpose of the Bill, as the Minister indicated and with which we all agree, is to ensure we have safe water courses and a safe water supply. There is both a public health and an environmental perspective. However, if we are looking at a hierarchy of risk to water courses, we must consider that many of those affected by these provisions do not live close to a water course which might be vulnerable to pollutants from their septic tanks. I have heard nothing about the main polluters. For example, despite the millions of euro invested in water treatment systems, Dublin and Limerick city councils are still unable to comply with the regulations.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That has nothing to do with this amendment. It is a matter for the local authorities.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The point I am making is certainly relevant to these provisions. They relate to the gathering of information which will, as the Minister said, inform the authorities on how the national plan should be targeted. My point is that the people from whom we are seeking this information are the wrong people. The river basin management plan revealed that the main polluters are local authorities. I accept there is an issue in regard to septic tanks that are proximate to water courses. That problem must be addressed. However, I would argue that, at a guess, one third of people with septic tanks are within those catchment risk areas while the other two thirds are not. However, we are bringing all of them into a bureaucratic system which will have significant costs for the State and for the individuals concerned in respect of inspections and probably issues of non-compliance-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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For whom will it involve costs? There is a standard registration fee of €50.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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There are local authorities which have decided only in recent years that percolation tests should form part of the process of granting planning permissions. People who sought permission, went through the process set up by the State and now find themselves in great difficulty, perhaps unable physically and financially to comply, will be put through the hoops. That is unacceptable when the State is the largest polluter.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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What hoops?

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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They will have to renew the system they installed at great cost to themselves.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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If the system is working, there is no problem.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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It may not be working.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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In which case it will have to be fixed.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I am saying that the worst culprit in regard to pollution of water courses is the State itself.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The State is not prepared to get its house in order but is seeking instead to pass the burden onto individual rural dwellers. It is typical of how the State operates. I am not blaming the Minister or the Government specifically; it is typical of how the apparatus of the State functions. Standards are set down with which individuals must comply while the State itself is not so obliged. That is unacceptable and if the Minister does not address it, he will run into serious difficulty.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I agree that local authorities are responsible for pollution. We are trying to do something about that. The Senator's party had 14 years in which to take action but failed to do so.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I will have €400 million under the capital programme for 2012 and I intend to secure great value for that money.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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In fairness, the previous Government spent millions of euro on this.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We will look after the sewerage treatment systems in Glenmore, Ballyhale and all the other places his crowd neglected.

A Senator:

What about Tullaher? Will it be left out?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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There is not much activity there, so it is not needed.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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There is €431 million in the budget this year.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We are discussing amendment No. 8.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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They say all politics is local. We have made significant progress this evening in terms of clarifying some of these amendments. However, issues of no significance are also being raised. When the Minister replies, Opposition Members do not listen. If a Government spokesperson conveys the same information, it eventually sinks in and we can move on to the next amendment. If that is the strategy we must adopt tonight, so be it. It is a good one.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We are discussing amendment No. 8.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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As the Minister said, all properties must be subject to inspection; whether they are in a high-risk area or otherwise is irrelevant. We cannot make fish of one and flesh of another. Properties in high-risk areas will be inspected, while those which are not may not be.

Senator Ó Domhnaill seems to be hung up on certain aspects of this provision. To reiterate, the information being sought is not mandatory. In other words, if the person happens to have built the house within the past 20 years and has a copy of the planning permission for the house, the site map will show the position of the septic tank and of the percolation area and this can be submitted with the application for registration. This is the type of information referred to by the Minister, as I understand. The second port of call for a site map would be the local authority which will have a file on all applications as far back as 1963. It is not mandatory to have a site map and there will be no penalty for not having one. Perhaps Senator Ó Domhnaill will accept this as an explanation.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I agree with Senator Landy that this has been a very good debate and the clarification is very useful. It seems that the Government representatives create more questions than answers. I seek clarification on the Minister's statement that all houses are covered under the information to be gathered in respect of this amendment.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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Yes, he said that.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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It relates to one of the amendments we put forward which were ruled out of order. The Bill as it stands refers to domestic wastewater systems. I ask the Minister to clarify the information that will be gathered on these registration forms. What is classified as a domestic wastewater system? The definition being used in the Bill might be a tad loose. The debate in the media and in the public arena has been about septic tanks and people have possibly jumped to the conclusion that we are talking about a house connected to a septic tank in a rural area. The Bill actually refers to domestic wastewater which is why I would have questioned the Minister's ruling. I imagine the use of the word, "domestic", means that somebody lives in the house. A wastewater system is a system for taking away the wastewater. If I live in a house in a terrace which has a pipe going from it into a system that deals chemically and biologically with the waste, does this qualify as a domestic wastewater system? Therefore, are we talking about all houses in the State? Are we saying that every house in the country could potentially be open to these charges? It is not necessarily an urban-rural divide-----

Denis Landy (Labour)
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That is another red herring.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I am just asking for clarification.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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We will be able to have our breakfast here soon.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Clochartaigh without interruption.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I am making a very valid point and I wanted to raise it. I am being quite honest.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Are those houses connected to public sewers?

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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They are domestic and they have wastewater-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Are they are connected to public sewers?

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Hypothetical.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I am not sure. The question is whether a group scheme-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Senator is not sure what he is talking about.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Clochartaigh without interruption.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, I am talking about the interpretation that could be taken from a domestic wastewater system-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I could interpret it if I knew what the Senator was talking about.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Could it be misconstrued?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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No.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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For example, the Minister said earlier it would be good to encourage group schemes where a number of houses come together. Is that a domestic wastewater system or is it a group scheme? What is the difference? Does there need to be a little more thought applied to the definition of a domestic wastewater system? I ask these questions because I do not wish to-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I have allowed the Senator a little latitude. We are dealing with amendment No. 8.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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My question is about the information to be gathered. I would imagine that one of the questions on this prescribed form would be whether a person's house was connected to a domestic wastewater system, to a group scheme or to a local authority scheme. What is the difference? I accept the bona fides of the Minister if he tells me it is not intended that anybody on a local authority scheme would be included. However, could a future Minister take a different meaning out of this?

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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In fairness to Senator Landy, a septic tank is only mentioned in one or two places in the Bill. The references in this Bill are to a "domestic wastewater system". This is why I raise the issue. I will find the reference for Senator Landy later. It is important to clarify this specific issue. Is the Minister completely certain that he is not referring to every house, all houses, in this State which are domestic houses?

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I have good respect for Senator Landy as we know each other a long time. I do not fully agree with the point he made. The inclusion of all houses with septic tanks goes beyond what is necessary to protect our water courses which is a priority. Some people are getting anxious because even if their septic tanks were not functioning perfectly, they would still not cause a problem. This proposal is actually putting our water courses at risk because the scarce human resources available to monitor and inspect will be too thinly spread over the full range of septic tanks whereas a focus on tanks which constitute a risk to the water courses would be more effective.

I agree with Senator Ó Clochartaigh. For example, if the Minister's house has its wastewater system connected into the public system which, due to the failure on the part of the local authority, is flowing into and polluting the river and I have a septic tank which is not affecting a water course, I am punished and the Minister gets off scot free. This is completely unfair. I think every house should have to comply. This is the point being made by the Sinn Féin Senators. If their amendments had been in order they would have provided a very valuable input into this debate. There is an element of unfairness in the manner of the debate and it is somewhat bureaucratic. I do not wish to accuse the Minister because I regard myself as almost a friend of his-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Senator should be very careful because he is a Wexford man and they do not win too often.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Would this have anything to do with the forthcoming budget and the €23 million or so which will be collected in registration fees?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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This is not included in the amendment.

John Gilroy (Labour)
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I wish to be helpful. The Members of the Opposition are in danger of tying themselves into linguistic knots and Senator Cullinane is talking about hypothetical houses. I will try to add some clarity to the debate. Senator Ó Domhnaill and Senator Ó Clochartaigh ask whether a future Minister could abuse this Minister's legislation for some nefarious or perfidious function and this is always a possibility. No law can bind a future Minister; the next Minister can do what he or she wishes, such as introducing another new law. Whether this law is tied up or tied down does not matter because a new Minister can bring in another law to repeal this law. Therefore, the Senators' concerns are completely irrelevant and unfounded.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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That is a very weak argument if I ever heard one.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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I probably need to be more prescriptive in my delivery of my deliberation. When I referred to all houses, I mean all houses in the context of this particular legislation, the houses with septic tanks, of which Senator Ó Domhnaill informs us, there are 475,000 in the country. I wish to put this on the record of the House for the sake of clarity. When I speak in future I will be a lot clearer for those who may misinterpret what I might be trying to say.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Landy because he has brought clarity to the matter. The Minister seemed to imply that only houses affecting water courses within the 475,000 would be inspected and requested to upgrade. This is how it operates in County Cavan. I am informed by my learned colleague that not all the houses in County Cavan are included.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Senator Wilson is the Cavan man.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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All the houses in Cavan will now get €50 so it is getting worse-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill, without interruption.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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In my view, legislation should be tight, irrespective of what Government is in power. Legislation should come before the Oireachtas if changes such as those proposed in this Bill are to be regulated by a ministerial regulation.

Senator Walsh made a very good point on the pollution threat caused by urban waste water systems. In my constituency and throughout greater Donegal there are sewerage treatment plants operated under the control of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government which flow directly into rivers and out into the sea. When some of those plants-----

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is a long time looking at that.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill, without interruption.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I would prefer a system which dealt with that matter first. We do not all live with the luxury of a sewerage treatment system. Not all of us live in Dublin. Some of us have to travel to the country and we live in very rural and remote areas where roads may not be as good as in other areas. However, I am proud to live in the rural countryside.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State, Deputy McGinley, will look after the Senator. Leave it with us.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill, without interruption.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State, Deputy McGinley, may have a great deal to look after because most of the septic tanks built in the rural part of Gweedore, the most densely populated rural part of Europe, are built on sites of roughly one fifth of an acre.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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He is for public health. He will sort it out.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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In certain circumstances septic tanks were built on other people's land. Those people will now effectively be criminalised.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Leave it with us.

A Senator:

Who passed that kind of development?

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Without leaving the point-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill, please, without interruption.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The point I am trying to make is that in very many urban waste water treatment systems, under whichever local authority, when the plant fills up the slush gates are opened and raw sewage flows into rivers and lakes. I know this and so does the Minister.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We are discussing domestic schemes, not local authority schemes.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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A domestic scheme might belong to any house. Just because one has a sewerage scheme does not mean one's house is classed as non-domestic. A sewerage scheme is different from that of a domestic dwelling. It is either a domestic sewerage scheme or a publicly funded sewerage scheme in the town or village.

In a report in 2008, the Environmental Protection Agency stated that "due to the complexity of environmental issues effective environmental policies and solutions must be underpinned by a good knowledge of the science". What science is being used to determine the new monitoring systems and the pollution being caused by septic tanks in rural areas?

The department of microbiology at University College Hospital, Galway, stated that comprehensive science does not exist in the case of alleged pollution from septic tanks. If that is the case on what are we basing our strategy? On what is the Minister basing his monitoring strategy? The EPA further recommended in its 2008 report that standard septic tank properties, sited with good percolation, are the best way of dealing with waste water treatment systems. The best waste water treatment system is a domestic septic tank; it is over and above that offered by the public infrastructure within this State.

Figures for population density in rural Ireland show that very often only ten people live within a square kilometre, with a possible rise to 25 persons per square km. Those figures are based on the 2011 census. If those are the figures for rural Ireland, how can those ten to 25 people be compared to the numbers of people living in Senator Keane's constituency which has massive population densities, apartments and houses built very close together? Population density there would be ten or 20 people in an area no bigger than 100 sq. m.

We must be real about this issue. Europe may be crying up and An Taisce and Friends of the Earth and all the others may be reacting and sending all sorts of memos to Europe, but we must live in the real world. People living in rural Ireland are not the prime cause of pollution in this country and they should not be penalised accordingly. Why are we subsidising people just for living in cities? I have nothing at all against people who live in cities but why-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is moving away from the amendment.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Why should we subsidise people in urban areas? Even if a person living in the country has planning permission from the local authority-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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This amendment has nothing to do with subsidies.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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It does, because-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I see nothing about subsidies in it.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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This amendment covers a great deal.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Walsh is making me laugh.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Please stick to the amendment, Senator.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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It mentions prescribed costs but we do not know what they are. They could be anything. The Minister has not clarified this and I do not expect him to do so because he may not know the answer. As he mentioned, it will be up to the Environmental Protection Agency, in conjunction with his Department, to decide at a future date what those prescribed costs will be.

We cannot accept those two lines in the Bill and must press the amendment unless we get absolute clarification.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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For the benefit of Senators Walsh and Ó Domhnaill, we are where we are because of the failure of their Government to win a court case in the European Court of Justice-----

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The old line.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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-----in 2009.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Minister, without interruption.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Ireland was defeated when the Senators' party was in government, and defeated ignominiously.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Their Government was unable to persuade the European Court of Justice that septic tanks were not a contaminant of ground water.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Was it the case or the legal team?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Government prosecuted the case.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The case was made.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The case was made and the Government lost.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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It was in May of this year.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It was lost in 2009. It was re-entered in May this year because the previous Government failed to implement the outcome of the court case.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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What attempts were made this year?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Allow the Minister to speak.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I brought proposals to the Government to deal with this. Otherwise we would have to pay. As a taxpayer, Senator Walsh does not want to pay out €26,000 per day but that is what we will be faced with if we do not have an inspection and monitoring system to deal with this in a risk-based model.

The legislation I propose is on that basis, not on having a universal inspection of every house, as the Fianna Fáil Party claimed. I was able to negotiate against us having to do that and was able to use the Water Services Act 2007 introduced by the Fianna Fáil Party in order to deal with areas with high risk water courses. I merely comply with that Act in order to ensure we have good ground water and a good environment.

The Fianna Fáil Party voted against this Bill on Second Stage, yet the Senators say they are in favour of having good ground water. They voted against the principle of this Bill.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we did because we do not agree with the way in which it is currently constructed.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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They voted against good public health issues, good ground water and a good environment. They voted against the commitment made in their party's revised programme for Government-----

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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It was not against the objectives but rather the structure of the Bill.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Minister, without interruption.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We will introduce effective septic tanks.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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We will not criminalise anybody in rural Ireland.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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They have gone against-----

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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We were not consulted about that.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Senator was not consulted? He was a member of the parliamentary party but he did not have any say?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Minister, without interruption.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I want to bring in good quality ground water and standards and a public health environment which the Fianna Fáil Party opposes. I want to do so in a way that complies with the judgment of the European Court of Justice concerning which the Senators' Government failed to deliver for us. Ireland was defeated in the court because of the Fianna Fáil Party's inactivity and inaction.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Just like today.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am referring to the issue before the House.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We are obliged under the urban waste water directive to comply with local authority plants that must be brought into line. Otherwise we will face fines under the water framework directive in 2015 and 2016. I have a programme in place to ensure that will not happen to us. All over County Wexford-----

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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It is possible to comply without imposing a cost.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I did not interrupt Senator Cullinane.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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You did.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We are where we are in regard to the European Court of Justice judgment and that is why we are here. Perhaps Senators can offer me a different way to resolve these issues without having an inspection and monitoring system for septic tanks.

I will clarify this point for Senator Ó Domhnaill. What we are dealing with, specifically, are individual houses with septic tanks. We are not dealing with public sewers or group schemes. I hope that clarifies the matter.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We have already had 16 different contributions on this amendment. I call Senator Ó Domhnaill.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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It is important that those contributions are heard. I thank the Chair for giving us an opportunity to make them. I would like to clarify Fianna Fáil's position on this Bill. We voted against it on Second Stage because even though we agree with the overall objective, which is to try to protect this country's water courses, we disagree outright with the manner in which the Bill has been constructed. The Government is proposing to criminalise people. The biggest bone of contention in the context of this Bill is the Government's failure to provide for a grant scheme to allow people to meet the cost of upgrading their septic tanks.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We are on amendment No. 8. I ask the Senator to confine his remarks to the amendment.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill does not seem to understand the purpose of Committee Stage.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We have had 16 contributions already and four more Senators have indicated.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I have clarified our position. We will press this amendment-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am not surprised.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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-----because we have not received clarification on the matter.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I call Senator Walsh.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The amendment is being pressed.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Not yet.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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We support the concept underpinning this Bill.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Why is the Senator's party not supporting the Bill itself?

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is coming some of the way. When he tells me that inspections will take place on the basis of risk-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am disappointed with the Senator.