Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Section 25(2) states:

"3 year minimum post-registration experience" means experience of at least 3 years of—

(a) practising whole-time as a registered pharmacist—

(i) in a retail pharmacy business,

(ii) before the commencement of this Act, in a shop kept open[.]

Does this preclude hospital pharmacists? Are they regarded as not having three years' minimum post-registration experience?

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I am glad Senator Ryan raised this because this was why I asked about the reference to a retail pharmacy business when the first list of definitions was discussed earlier.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I would be concerned if that were the case because I do not wish to preclude anyone from starting his or her own business, but I am advised the dispensing role of a hospital pharmacist will count towards the three-year experience requirement.

Earlier this afternoon, I referred to legal advice the IPU had received regarding the contract negotiations, but I was in error. I am sorry if that caused to distress to the IPU officials in the Visitors Gallery. I do not know how I came to the view the advice was from the IPU's lawyers because it was the legal advice of the PDF, the wholesale group, that brought this to the attention of all concerned. I hope that clarifies the matter and that I am not accused of misleading the House. I also hope the IPU members who were very upset earlier will forgive me.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I will not accuse the Minister of misleading the House. However, I raised the definition of "retail pharmacy business" earlier because of the reference to it in this section. The Minister said the definition did not include hospital work.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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They are not being included as retail pharmacies.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I asked if the definition of "retail pharmacy business" on page 8 included hospital practices because that is vital under this section. The Minister replied that such practices were not included. Nobody would set up a hospital pharmacy business if they were not covered under this definition because they would not obtain credit for opening the business.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I am assured the hospital pharmacists are included.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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The Minister said earlier that the definition of "retail pharmacy business" did not include hospital pharmacies.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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There is a little confusion. They are included in the context of their dispensing role to outpatients. The bulk of their work relates to patients in hospitals. However, earlier I listed a number of drugs dispensed by hospital pharmacists to outpatients and that is effectively the same as a retail pharmacy business.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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It must be ensured these hospital pharmacies provide an outpatient service.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Absolutely.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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No hospital pharmacy should only provide an inpatient service. That needs to be made very clear. Do all the hospitals we have discussed——

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Approximately 50 hospitals are registered for that purpose currently.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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As the Minister has a few more bites of this cherry before the Bill is passed, will she review whether we need to be more specific and explicit about hospital pharmacies? There is a considerable amount of unease about it. As the Minister said, one does not want to push people into a blind alley career-wise against their wishes.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I will certainly ensure such people are covered because I would not want a situation to arise where somebody who has worked for 20 years in a hospital pharmacy is not able to open his or her own pharmacy if he or she chooses to do so. I will ensure that is certain.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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Amendments Nos. 32 to 35, inclusive, and amendment No. 39 are related and may be discussed together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 32:

In page 24, subsection (1)(a), line 33, after "person" to insert "being a registered pharmacist".

The amendment states that the person should be a registered pharmacist. The business should be carried out by a "natural person", which is a lovely term in section 26, who is a registered pharmacists. Section 26 states:

A person carries on a retail pharmacy business in accordance with this section is the retail pharmacy business is registered and—

(a) where the business is carried on by a natural person[.]

Is it necessary to include that again?

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Section 27 covers that situation. I have tabled amendment No. 39 to deal with the same situation.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I presume the response to my amendments will be the same in which case there is no point in me wasting time saying the same thing.

Senators:

Amendments Nos. 40 to 42, inclusive, are related and may be discussed together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I refer to section 29(f) which states:

[T]hat—

(i) in the case where the event that gave rise to the appointment of the representative was the death of the registered pharmacist referred to in section 26(1)(c), not more than 5 years has elapsed since that death, and[.]

I do not wish to cause difficulties for people who are bereaved but is five years not a long time to have somebody other than a registered pharmacist in charge? Is there a logical explanation? I appreciate the slowness of the Probate Office.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Obviously, a supervising pharmacist must be in charge. There is no question of a pharmacy running for five years unsupervised. I do not know whether there would be an issue if we reduced it.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I will not make a big issue of it but it struck me as a long time. There could be two elections within that period.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I do not know whether it would be a big issue if it were three or four years.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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It is not a big issue. I was just curious whether there was some important reason I did not know about.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Clearly, it would be an issue if nobody was in charge of the place and if the business was running for five years unsupervised. It took somebody Senator Minihan knows four and a half years to resolve issues around a pharmacy.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I understand some pharmacists may have had their General Medical Service contracts revoked last year because they were unable to recruit an Irish graduate despite the fact they advertised for several months. What happens in the case of such pharmacists? As far as I know, section 31 relates to that.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Is the Senator talking about pharmacists who had their contracts revoked?

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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The GMS contract.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I am not aware of it. Perhaps the Senator will bring it to our attention. I do not believe it is provided for in this legislation.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Is there any point including section 32(5) and leaving a list of terms such as "pharmacy", "medical stores", "drug stores", "drug hall", etc. People who want to will think up new names not included in this subsection. It is an endless and fruitless chase. It would be an appropriate place to talk about Internet drugs, if we wanted to do so, but we will not go down that route as it is too late in the day. I do not see the point of including a list of names.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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They were referred to in old Acts and it is to ensure people who are not pharmacists do not use these titles.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I move amendment No. 46:

In page 29, subsection (8), line 33, after "committee" to insert the following:

"and a registered medical practitioner appointed under subsection (9)".

The Labour Part Members had a concern in this regard. Section 34 pertains to the disciplinary committees and section 34(8) states that "members of a disciplinary committee have, as such, the same protections and immunities as a judge of the High Court". While no one would argue with that, it is unclear whether a registered medical practitioner who advises such a disciplinary committee would have the same privileges as the committee members. This amendment proposes that the members of the committee and a registered medical practitioner appointed under subsection (9) will have the same privileges in respect of protection from being sued.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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My understanding is that such doctors are not present on the same basis as members of the committee. They are present purely in an advisory capacity. I must take advice and will have the matter checked.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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While I do not wish to labour the point, it is unclear whether the doctor involved would be protected.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I accept the Senator's point and will make sure——

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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A doctor who gave bona fide advice to such a committee could be left wide open to being sued. I am glad the Minister will consider the issue.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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Would the doctor's position differ in that he or she would be a paid adviser?

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I imagine the doctor would be paid. Does that make a difference? I assume the doctor would be paid.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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That would constitute an immediate difference from the rest of the committee.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Is that because he or she would be paid to give advice?

Mary Henry (Independent)
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That is correct.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The doctor would be present in an expert capacity. I imagine that doctors who give advice or are expert witnesses in court——

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Far be it from Senator Henry or me to suggest anything about doctors being paid.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Does Senator Henry suggest that doctors should not be paid to do this?

Mary Henry (Independent)
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Must I shake my fist on television?

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I am married to one.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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That is allowed. Does Senator Henry believe a distinction can be made in this regard?

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I believe there is a difference when one acts as an expert witness. However I cannot recall the details.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Does the Senator mean that those who are paid are not protected? Does one's own private insurance or whatever offer protection?

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I had not expected this issue to be raised.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I will check it. I want to ensure we make it easy to get such advice and avoid making it cumbersome or putting people in a vulnerable position.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I accept that section 34 does not state that membership of the committees is confined to members of the council. However, I would have preferred a more explicit statement that recruitment to the two committees in question was open to those who are not council members. Earlier the Minister commented on the burden of work that could be involved in respect of a preliminary professional conduct committee and a health committee. Moreover, given the prerequisite that a majority of the members of each committee should be registered pharmacists, resources may be overstretched. I understood the Minister to have stated that there would be an entitlement to have people on such committees other than members of the council. I would have preferred this to have been made explicit in the legislation.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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This is included in paragraph 7(3) of Schedule 1 which states: "A committee may include persons who are not members of the Council."

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I beg the Minister's pardon.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The matter has been dealt with.

Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should change his glasses.

Senators:

Does this mean Members are in a position to move on?

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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If the Acting Chairman challenges me, I might make it impossible to move on. However, I will not.

Senators:

I am asking for Senator Ryan's advice.

Senators:

Amendments Nos. 47, 48 and 50 to 52, inclusive, are cognate and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 47:

In page 29, subsection (1), line 41, after "pharmacist" to insert "or trainee pharmacist".

Trainee pharmacists should also be included. They have left the schools of pharmacy and are doing what could be described as their intern year. However, the registered pharmacist cannot have eyes in the back of his or her head. I would have thought there was an onus on the trainee pharmacist to abide by the rules and regulations of the society of which they aspire to become members.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The Senator makes the point that the supervisory pharmacist would be obliged to have eyes in the back of his or her head. I am trying to recall how the Medical Council legislation deals with interns. They are covered by the Medical Council legislation.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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Perhaps the Minister will examine the issue to ascertain the position.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I will do so. I am uncertain whether it is reasonable to bring trainees before a fitness to practice committee. I will revert to the issue.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I move amendment No. 49:

In page 30, subsection (2), lines 15 and 16, to delete "or, if not, in a form acceptable to the Council".

This amendment is quite important and pertains to the form of a complaint. At present, section 35(2) states: "A complaint must be in writing or, if not, in a form acceptable to the Council." I do not like the idea of the first half of a sentence using the word "must" when it is followed by the phrase "or, if not". It should be obligatory for a complaint of this nature to be in writing. While I am prepared to entertain arguments concerning those with disabilities and similar issues, the complaint must be in writing. This amendment suggests the deletion of "or, if not, in a form acceptable to the Council".

I am prepared to listen if a good reason can be put forward. In principle however, if a complaint is being made which could lead to anything from a reprimand to being struck off from the register of pharmacists, the least one can expect is a written record. The great advantage of written records is there is a clear record as to the nature of the complaint. This is not the case with either verbal or e-mailed complaints. E-mail is still an insufficiently secure or reliable method. I want to hear a reason for an exception because I cannot think of one.

For example, in the GAA one can do little in terms of appealing or complaining about anyone except in a written and prescribed form. Organisations recognise that without a written record, one enters dodgy territory. If there is a good reason, I am prepared to listen.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I support Senator Ryan in this regard. I could not think of another form that would be acceptable. Perhaps a form could be found that sounds reasonable.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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It is hard to argue against the Senators' points. Much of this was done with a view to making it easy for people who wish to make a complaint from a patient safety perspective. However, I accept the need to be fair. Even a complaint that never ends up in a fitness to practice inquiry or that simply goes to a preliminary hearings committee can cause much upset. I will examine this matter.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I have a minor question in respect of section 35. While I do not wish to be awkward, this matter arose in a different context. I refer to section 35(3), which states: "A complaint may be made on behalf of any person or by the registrar." I am not being picky when I say this means that a person cannot make a complaint himself or herself. It can be made on behalf of any person or by the council. I suggest that a complaint can be made by, or on behalf or any person, or by the registrar. I ask the Minister to consider this. As it stands, it appears——

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Is the Senator referring to the wording or to a substantive issue?

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I refer to wording. Given the subsection's current wording, if I wished to complain about a pharmacist, such a complaint would have to be made on my behalf.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I believe this only refers to one option.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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No. Section 35(3) states: "A complaint may be made on behalf of any person or by the registrar."

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The wording uses "may" rather than "shall". Nevertheless, I will examine it.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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The Minister can——

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Senator Ryan is speaking about English rather than the substance of it.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I had this debate with the Minister for Education and Science when discussing the Residential Institutions Redress Board in which a similar phrase was used. The form of drafting would have meant victims could not have appealed to the Ombudsman and would have needed someone to do it for them. This is why I noticed it here.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I will examine it.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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The eternal argument with the Parliamentary Counsel is once again raised in section 37(1) which states: "The council may devise guidelines about resolving complaints by mediation." Everybody believes resolving complaints by mediation is a most desirable way to do things. In my view it should state "shall" and not "may".

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I do not disagree with the Senator and I will examine it. We want a mediation process and we must have guidelines on it. We will do "shall".

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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It should not be discretionary. The word "may" is appropriate in certain areas but "shall" should be used here.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I am delighted to see this section because frequently complaints can be fixed up through a mediation process.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I have some other questions and I do not believe they are trivial. The Acting Chairman has a wonderful way of looking at me to make me feel like I am wasting the House's time.

Senators:

I wonder what would make the Senator think that.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Section 37(3) states:

No attempt may be made to resolve a complaint by mediation without the consent of the complainant and the registered pharmacist or pharmacy owner.

Should we insert the phrase "written consent" into this section? The purpose is to ensure everybody operates in the same way.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Let me get——

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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This is important. Agreeing to mediation is the start of a process and everybody should know what they agree to.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Agreeing to mediation does not mean it will be resolved through mediation.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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One does not want a later court case where people state they never agreed to it.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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If they do not agree to mediation, it cannot take place. To mediate one must have both parties——

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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They might agree and then change their minds or be advised by a lawyer that they should not have agreed to it.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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We will examine the phrase "consent in writing".

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Many of us received representations from people in the profession and one argument put to me was that this is soft in terms of preference for all hearings to be in public. Section 42 states:

(1) A hearing before the professional conduct committee shall be held in public [This is a great start].

(2) But it shall be held in private if—

(a) the registered pharmacist or pharmacy owner or the complainant so requests, and

(b) the committee is satisfied that it would be appropriate to agree to that request.

I accept on occasion business must be conducted in private. Even the Houses of the Oireachtas have reserved the right to meet in private under certain circumstances. I do not think it has ever happened. The word "appropriate" is a bit weak. A stronger term such as "the greater good or public interest demands it" would be better. Bodies such as this should meet in public and complaints should be heard in public. The bodies are quasi-judicial and we have a strong tradition that all of our judicial activities take place in public.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I know we have a great desire to hold everything in public. However, I worry about the complainant far more than the professional when hearings are held in public. I frequently see court cases where patients have justified complaints against doctors but when they consider what would come out in court, the case falls apart. I would not like too much insistence on it being in public.

The professional would come out of it perfectly all right and he or she would almost certainly have the advice of the professional body and moral support. Frequently, a complainant is not used to publicity and is horrified to discover what may come out. While I understand the desire to hold everything in public, and it should be if everyone wants it, I have seen people dismayed.

I am sure the Minister saw in the High Court recently where a doctor tried to insist cases involving the most serious sexual abuse of adult patients were held in public. He knew the women would not continue with them if they were held in public. It took great courage on their part to go forward anonymously.

Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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I have certain concerns. It is not unheard of for people to make baseless accusations against professional people, including pharmacists. The problem would be with the complainant. If it were held in public, we would have the old concept of no smoke without fire. It is covered sufficiently and a certain amount of reserved wisdom must apply in this case. I am concerned for any professional person. The merits of each case would have to be studied carefully and the legislation should provide for this.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I feel strongly about this issue. Senator Henry made valid points about the complainant and she is correct. Most people are terrified of authority, especially the courts. It is one of the reasons so few people come forward in rape and sexual offence cases. The few I met who did go forward stated the trial, court and adversarial system were terrifying and wondered whether they would go through it again. I do not state a fitness to practise inquiry is at the same level. However, we must make it easy for people to make legitimate complaints. The committee which will make the decision will have a non-pharmacy majority. It will not be a committee composed of pharmacists who will state it will be heard in private.

On the point made by Senator Glynn, I hope that with the new procedure, the preliminary hearings committee, dealing with mediation and health issues being dealt with by the health committee, this will mean only complaints of substance will go before a fitness to practise inquiry. These reasons include time and money and the fact that one does not want vexatious complaints getting past the preliminary inquiry. With all the good things happening in Ireland, I sometimes feel we have full-time complainers and whingers who love to complain about everybody and anything. I hope this legislation will not make it easy for vexatious complaints to be made about pharmacists, doctors or other health care professionals.

I believe we have the balance right. With regard to including the phrase "in the public interest", if the complainant has a wish to hold the hearing in private, it should be taken into account. Without the complainant we would not have a complaint and the matter would not arise in the first instance. Many people like to remain anonymous. The midwives in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda eventually blew the whistle there and to the credit of the health board, it took the matter seriously. The person most responsible is now involved in the Pharmaceutical Society. Those people do not want to become public figures. Giving the decision to the committee is fair and reasonable under the circumstances.

Senators:

Amendments 53 to 57, inclusive, are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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The Minister has an amendment tabled so let us move on. I will not move amendment No. 53.

Senators:

Amendment No. 54 is a Government amendment but must be discussed with amendment No. 53. If the Minister wishes to speak on it, amendment No. 53 must be moved.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I apologise. I move amendment No. 53:

In page 34, subsection (1), line 32, after "the" where it firstly occurs to insert "High".

Senators:

If the Minister wishes to comment on amendments Nos. 54 and 55, now is the time to do it.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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These are technical drafting amendments.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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This allows the society to recover its costs.

Senators:

Amendments Nos. 58 to 60, inclusive, are related and may be discussed together by agreement.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The amendment is self-explanatory. The provision would close the shop, but only on a High Court order, which would require the society to make a very strong case.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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With regard to amendment No. 60, I am glad the Minister took my advice. I thought it important there should be an immediate shutdown.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I should have been gracious enough to say that as well.

Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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The cheque is in the post.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I thought it very important there should be an immediate shutdown if there was a really serious problem.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Yes.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I have a comment on section 48(2), just to prove I read all this stuff. It states "The Council may not cancel the registration of a pharmacist or retail pharmacy business on the grounds of a conviction for an offence". I take it that is an offence unrelated to the nature of this Bill.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Yes. The Senator is reading from subsection (2), which states:

The Council may not cancel the registration of a pharmacist or retail pharmacy business on the grounds of a conviction for an offence unless in the Council's opinion, the nature of the offence or the circumstances in which it was committed are such that, were the pharmacist or pharmacy owner applying for registration, the Council would refuse the registration.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I am at least happy about the consistency that must apply the same test to cancelling as it would to refusing registration. Should there not be a little legislative guidance regarding the offences under consideration? It is undefined. Are we speaking about a drink-driving conviction or murder or rape? I presume we are speaking about serious offences.

This is only a thought but it may be the subject of enormous and lengthy discussion by the council before it would agree on what it is because it is so vague.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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It is clearly concerned with fitness to practise. The council's role relates to the capacity of the individual to practise as a pharmacist.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Yes.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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If there is a breach of planning laws or some other road traffic incident, for example, it is not a reason for the council to act. It is in the context of the Bill and must be relevant, as the functions of the council would not allow it consider other issues. It must be in the context of professional conduct.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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We discussed this earlier when I raised the equal status matter. I do not want to go off on that again.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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They certainly cannot counsel on the grounds of sexual orientation.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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No, there is no reason to go over that again. I believe it was a valid question but the Minister answered it satisfactorily and I am sorry for interrupting her. There is a clear statement here that people convicted of some undefined offences are not fit to practise. The matter could do with a little teasing out. It is only an opinion but the area could end up with enormous arguments. There is either a minimum penalty or an offence.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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We will have it clarified by our legal advisers that it is foolproof to deal with just the issues I mentioned.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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It is something councils must be very careful about. The term "moral turpitude" came up earlier. I do not know what it is but it sounds absolutely dreadful.

One must be very careful with professional people if their livelihood and profession are to be removed because of convictions in a totally unrelated area.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Sure.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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Of course the conviction cannot be of murder or something similar, as they would be in prison as a result. We should be very careful that we are not acting as some kind of moral supervisor for people——.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Absolutely.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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——when what is being done could take away their whole livelihood.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Asking the county council to build a fence, for example.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I brought up the term "of unsound mind" when we were discussing a Bill relevant to whether a person could run a gun shop. What is unsound mind? Is it somebody who is forgetful? There was no definition of the term. We would be taking away the person's livelihood and we should be very careful when making moral decisions about issues that will have such a serious effect. It may have nothing to do with a person's professional actions.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Absolutely. I will have that checked with the Parliamentary Counsel in case there is any doubt.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I am unsure whether it is the temerity or caution of the drafters but section 52(3) states "The High Court may but need not confirm the Council's decision." I am absolutely certain there was never any need to put into legislation that the High Court had the power to say no to anything.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The Senator makes a valid point.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I have never found it slow to say no. Subsection (3) is probably unnecessary as the High Court is more than capable of making up its own mind.

Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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It is making sure to be sure.

Senators:

Perhaps we are entering into another discussion.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I will have to take legal advice but I take the point made by the Senator. We know the ultimate decision in these matters comes from the High Court.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I have made notes about sections 56 and 57 and decided to wait for the debate on section 57. When in God's name could it ever not be in the public interest to give public notice of any of the issues listed? What is the point of cancelling the registration of a pharmacist and not giving public notice? The same applies to restoration, suspension, expiry or attachment of conditions etc. These should clearly always be a public matter and it is entirely pointless to suggest there would ever be a reason not to give public notice.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I would agree with the Senator. We will consider the matter. We could otherwise use "shall".

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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The point concerns a public notice but will a sign go up in a pharmacy itself if, for example, a pharmacy was to be closed down? Would there be a newspaper advertisement?

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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If it is closed down a sign will go up indicating so.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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The problem is if a pharmacy was to be closed down for a reason, the public might not be aware why it happened. It may have been closed for other reasons. Will a sign be clearly displayed in the pharmacy?

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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If it is closed down, the pharmacy will be closed.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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Will there be a notice indicating why it is closed down?

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I am not certain there would be a sign. If we do what Senator Ryan is suggesting it would be a matter of public knowledge.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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That is a good idea.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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That is reasonable.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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If a doctor is struck off we do not expect him or her to walk around with a sign indicating they have been struck off.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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This pertains to a pharmacy being closed.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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If it is closed down it will be shut. We can take Senator Ryan's comments into account and I could put the word "shall" in the section. I take the Senator's point of when it would not be in the public interest. Bad news usually makes big news anyway.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I refer back to the doctor and remind the Minister again of expert advice being given. This relates to defamation and whether we believe a doctor should be exempt from a defamation suit or not, we should at least make up our minds which side we are on. Expert witnesses in the High Court have qualified privilege. Unless they are proven to be acting in bad faith, they cannot be sued for the evidence they give. We must make the same true in this case.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I will clarify that in terms of the person giving advice.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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This section relates to the cancellation of registration on request. In respect of the person applying for the cancellation, it states, "at the time of applying, the subject of a complaint", meaning the registration cannot be cancelled. What occurs in the case of a person who has cancelled his or her registration, but against whom a complaint is subsequently made? He or she cannot be struck off a register he or she is not on, but who will investigate the complaint? In such an instance, could the person apply to be re-registered two years later?

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The complaint would need to be pursued at that point. I will clarify for the Senator, as I take his point.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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As a perennial late payer, I want to protest. There are complicated procedures to go through to cancel a registration if a complaint is made against that person, but the Bill makes no reference to any court in the case of someone who loses his or her registration for failing to pay a retention fee. I would appeal to the council, if not to the Minister, to work out a procedure involving a few steps along the way to address such cases. A person's registration could be lost in the same way and with the same impact as is the case of someone accused of selling drugs to half of the city's addicts.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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This is a self-financing organisation and we want to ensure funding. I have prohibited the council from charging trainee or student pharmacists.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I have no difficulty with the fee.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Going to court would cost more than the fee and would not be a good idea. People will be given reminders.

Senators:

Perhaps it should be like the Irish Turf Club, namely, always in credit.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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What happens in the Senator's trade union if he does not pay his fees?

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I could not vote in elections or in ballots, but I would have the protection of my union, which would represent me if I had a problem.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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On a point of clarification, the amendment states, "share a common public entrance with each other". Would it be helpful to insert a provision stating, "if, in the case of (a) or (b), there is an arrangement of the kind described in subsection (2)"? Does the current provision only apply to (b)?

Senators:

Could we deal with it when we address the relevant section?

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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Unless we insert "in the case of (a) or (b)", the proposed section 64(1)(b)(ii) would relate only to (b) and exclude same premises.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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It would not.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I might leave the matter until Report Stage.

Senators:

Amendments Nos. 63 and 64 are logical alternatives and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 63:

In page 41, between lines 35 and 36, to insert the following:

""premises" includes any aircraft, hovercraft, ship, stall, or vehicle;".

It is important to ensure the term "premises" is broadly defined. My definition is from the Irish Medicines Board (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006.

There is a considerable problem with the smuggling of counterfeit drugs, a matter on which Senator Glynn has spoken frequently at the Joint Committee on Health and Children. It is important for the authorised officers to be in a position to examine any drug brought into the country and being sold here. For example, I saw pharmaceutical drugs being sold at a car boot sale in England, for which reason the word "stall" is relevant. I hope the Minister accepts my amendment.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I have no idea from where my amendment came, as I am not as well informed as Senator Henry, but the point has been made. The definition of "premises" must be clarified. Therefore, it would be no harm to include a broader definition.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I will take advice, as the Senators have made a valid point.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I move amendment No. 65:

In page 41, paragraph (a), line 37, before "a" to insert "computer data,".

While the argument will always be that this provision is implied, we would suggest referring to computer data, disc, tape, soundtrack or other device on which to store information.

I will refer to a new way to do something on the Internet that has developed in the past three or four years. Google is an example. Instead of having documents on a computer, there are Google documents, Google spreadsheets, etc. Google guarantees privacy and presents a server through which one can work. Microsoft will do likewise. For further consideration, I suggest that this way of storing records is not covered by the Bill. I am not certain it would be covered by our amendment. The records would not be stored on the premises. Before being passed by the other House, it would be worthwhile to examine a definition encompassing new ways of storing data without a physical record on the premises or in the possession of the owner. The material is probably stored on a Google server in California.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I will clarify the matter, but I am advised that section 63(a) at the bottom of page 41, which refers to "a disc, tape, sound-track or other device in which information, sounds or signals are embodied so as to be capable (with or without the aid of some other instrument) of being reproduced in legible or audible form", covers computer data. I will check for the Senator.

Senators:

Amendments Nos. 66 to 70, inclusive, are related and may be discussed together by agreement.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I move amendment No. 66:

In page 42, paragraph (a), line 15, after "medicinal" to insert "or veterinary medicinal".

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Some of the amendments are the same.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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The Government has tabled an amendment to this effect.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 70:

In page 42, between lines 18 and 19, to insert the following:

"(c) any veterinary medicinal product;".

Senators:

As amendments Nos. 71 to 73, inclusive, are related, they may be discussed together by agreement.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I move amendment No. 71:

In page 44, subsection (3)(n), line 15, after "facilities" to insert the following:

"or courier facilities or other means of transportation".

I will not argue with the Minister on this one. I proposed this amendment to ensure that forms of delivery other than the traditional forms of delivery are identified in the definitions. However, the Minister has tabled an amendment that includes the words "other means of delivery", thereby covering the issue I intended to raise, so I will withdraw my amendment.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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It is covered in another amendment.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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It would be nicer for my vanity if the Minister were to accept my amendment.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 72:

In page 44, subsection (3)(n), line 20, to delete "mail." and substitute the following:

"mail, courier or other means of delivery or transportation.".

I understand that people sometimes seal their mailboxes to avoid getting things that can only be delivered by mail. Therefore, it is important to provide for other methods of delivery. Who would have thought that people would be so wicked?

Senators:

As amendments Nos. 74 and 75 are related, they may be discussed together by agreement.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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This amendment has been tabled to provide that the authorised officer can choose to be accompanied by people with "expertise relating to the relevant thing". I am surprised that the phrase "relevant thing" is being used in legislation.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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It is a wonderful piece of drafting.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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It does not sound like good legalese.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I would like to ask the Minister about a thought that has just struck me. Perhaps I should have raised it earlier in the debate, but I will try to sneak it in now. When a pharmacy is closed down, do its patients or customers have the right to access the information on their records?

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I have been informed that such circumstances will be covered in the regulations we will make under section 18. We will engage in consultation before we draw up such regulations.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I am a little puzzled. I was curious when I saw that section 64(10) states that "a statement or admission made by a person pursuant to a requirement under subsection (3)(e) shall not be admissible". When I consulted section 64(3)(e), I found that it states that an authorised officer may "require any person at the premises or the owner or person in charge of the premises and any person employed there to give to him or her such assistance and information and to produce to him or her such books, records or other documents ..... as he or she may reasonably require". What type of "statement or admission" would be likely to be made by a person under section 64(3)(e)? Is this provision being introduced to ensure that people are not compelled to incriminate themselves?

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Yes.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Okay.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 76:

In page 45, subsection (1)(b), line 41, after "separate" to insert "suitable".

I am sure the Minister will find it hard to believe, but I remember pathological specimens that failed because they had been placed in totally unsuitable containers. Evidence that would have been valuable, not necessarily in court cases, was lost. People sometimes have to be reminded to be sensible. Therefore, I have suggested that authorised officers be required to place each part of the specimen in "separate" and "suitable" containers.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I think the Senator is right. I will have that proposal checked.

Senators:

Is the Minister accepting the amendment?

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I will return to the Senator's proposal on Report Stage after I have checked it with the Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel. Senator Henry has made a valid point. One might assume that the container would be suitable, but we should specify that it should be.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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The Minister would be astonished if she knew what people get up to.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Having read section 66(1) a few times, I am not sure whether there is a drafting error. Perhaps my brain is too slow to understand what is intended. I refer to the part of the section that begins:

In any proceedings for an offence under this Act, a certificate in the form specified in Schedule 3 to this Act signed by—

(a) either—

(i) the State Chemist, or

(ii) another chemist employed or engaged at the State Laboratory and authorised by the State Chemist to sign the certificate,

(b) either—

(i) a public analyst appointed under section 10 of the Sale of Food and Drugs Act 1875, or

(ii) another analyst authorised by such a public analyst to sign the certificate,

I wonder whether the word "or" should be included before (b) above. As it stands, it could mean that the certificate would have to be signed by one of the people mentioned in (a) and one of the people mentioned in (b). I am not being awkward. It seems to me that this section, as it is written, could mean that the certificate would have to be signed by both a chemist and an analyst, whereas I believe they are alternates.

Senators:

The word "or" is used later in the section.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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That is right.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I agree with Senator Ryan that this section needs to be examined.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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All right.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I have been told by my officials that the "or" is implied, but we should make it clear.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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That is what the Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel is for. The officials behind the Minister are wonderful, but the draftsman always says that these things are implied.

Senators:

As amendments No. 78 and 79 are alternatives to amendment No. 77, and amendment No. 80 is related to amendment No. 77, amendments Nos. 77 to 80, inclusive, may be discussed together by agreement.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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This technical amendment has been introduced for the purposes of clarity.

Senators:

As amendments Nos. 81 to 83, inclusive, are related, they may be discussed together by agreement.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 81:

In page 48, subsection (3), line 16, after "director," to insert the following:

"shadow director as defined in section 27 of the Companies Act 1990,".

I did not know there was such a person as a "shadow director" until I was told about his or her existence. We need to ensure that such people are included in the Bill. I will not delay the House if the Minister agrees it would be a good idea to make this change.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I have covered this issue in amendment No. 83.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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This section outlines the penalties for all the offences under this legislation. It provides that they will all be subject to the same spectrum of penalties. Are we sure that all the offences that could be committed under this Bill are of equivalent gravity, or has this section been drafted in this way as a convenient catch-all device? I do not want to delay the House, although we are doing reasonably well for time. It seems strange to me that every offence under this legislation will attract a penalty from the same spectrum.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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It is clear that there is a standard distinction between summary conviction and indictment. What is the Senator suggesting?

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I would have to have more time.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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If the Deputy could give an example of something that does not warrant the penalty proposed for it, I would be happy to consider that point.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I will not get into such a discussion at this hour of the evening.

Senators:

As amendments Nos. 84 and 97 to 102, inclusive, are related, they may be discussed together.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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These technical amendments will provide for more clarity.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I must say that I am sorry to see the end of "Poths Hall", which was part of our student days. We were never quite sure what "Poths Hall" was, but we knew it was there somewhere. It entertained us enormously, although we were never quite sure what it did. I suppose, therefore, there is a certain feeling of nostalgia about it.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I can remember it very well. I was one of those who took part, as a junior, in the last examinations for Poths Hall, after which a Chinese gentleman threatened to kill one of the examiners. It was a very colourful outfit and while I am sorry it is no more, the standing of medicine and pharmacy in Ireland is better because of it.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I move amendment No. 85:

In page 48, line 35, to delete subsection (2).

The lawyer from whom I take advice on these matters is a man of delicate sensitivities. He suggests subsection (2) is unnecessary because repeals are announced in section 4 and further stated in Schedule 4.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I am sure he is wonderful but I am obliged to take the advice of the Attorney General. I will ask the Parliamentary Counsel to examine the matter.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I am not trying to be awkward but to be helpful. This deals with an amendment to the Poisons Act. Subsection (1), in referring to section 18 of that Act, reads:

A person who . . . keeps open shop for the sale of poisons commits an offence.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply in relation to the keeping of open shop by a person of a class specified in regulations under section 14 who is keeping open shop in accordance with those regulations.

(3) This subsection is complied with if—

(a) the person referred to in subsection (1) is—

(i) a registered pharmacist,

(ii) a registered druggist,

(iii) the personal representative ...

(iv) the Official Assignee ... or

(v) is a corporate body ...

I suggest the word "or" should be included after the reference to a registered pharmacist, a registered druggist and following the words "was lawfully keeping open shop for the sale of poisons". I do not believe a person must meet all those conditions, rather he or she must meet only one of them.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I will have that matter examined.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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This amendment seeks to clarify legally what the section applies to. It includes previous references in the current section 72 reference.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Subsection (1) reads, "A code of conduct having effect under sections. . . and regulations made under section . . . shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas . . .". That is a great idea and I have no problem with it. Subsection (2) reads, "If a resolution annulling these regulations . . . ". Codes of conduct are not regulations; they are codes of conduct approved by the Minister. That is all they are. I have no problem with them being made known and available to the Houses of the Oireachtas. That is a good idea, but I doubt if they are regulations under any meaning of legislation I have heard.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The Senator is right but subsection (1) reads, "A code of conduct having effect under sections . . . and regulations . . .". It is those regulations to which we are referring.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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That is fine.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I move amendment No. 87:

In page 51, paragraph 2, between lines 18 and 19, to insert the following:

"(2) A disqualification pursuant to an order of a court referred to in subparagraph (1)(a), (c), (d), (e) or (f) shall not take effect until the ordinary time for appealing against any such order has expired, or if an appeal is lodged within that time, until any such appeal, or a further appeal therefrom is determined.".

This relates to a disqualification from office of the council. It is standard practice that where a person has been convicted and appealed, he or she cannot be punished until the matter is resolved that he or she is worthy, if that is the right word, of being punished. This would be a significant punishment. Somebody in that position would be well advised to resign but we should not provide for a situation where somebody who has been penalised and then cleared on appeal is punished by being disqualified.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I will have the matter examined.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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This amendment addresses a technical issue.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Amendment No. 89 is a Government amendment. Amendment No. 90 is related, while amendment No. 91 is a logical alternative to amendment No. 89. Amendments Nos. 89 to 91, inclusive, may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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This amendment is to ensure the president and vice-president are pharmacists.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I am glad the Minister has agreed to this because it is important that the profession has confidence in the council. The general public must have confidence but the profession must also have confidence in it.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I move amendment No. 92:

In page 54, paragraph 9, after line 44, to insert the following:

"(8) A disclosure under this paragraph or paragraph 10 shall be recorded in a register together with particulars of any interest of members of the Authority or persons to whom paragraph 10 applies, and the register shall be available to public inspection during office hours.".

This amendment is to ensure the interests, if so recorded, would be a matter of public record. Where members disclose interests, they should be a matter of public record.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I am not certain that is necessary but it is a matter for the council to decide. Members are covered by ethics in public office legislation. The council must keep a record.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 94:

In page 56, paragraph 12(2), line 9, after "surplus" to insert the following:

"including any surplus following the disposal of its assets".

This is to ensure that when the society is wound up, if it has any funds from the sale of assets, they would not go into the great maw of the Department of Health and Children.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I am advised that we need an amendment in this regard. I will arrange for it to be made.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The purpose of this amendment is to make the Bill gender friendly and include the word "herself" after "himself".

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I move amendment No. 96:

In page 58, after line 42, to insert the following:

"Accountability to Houses of the Oireachtas

22. When required by a committee of either or both Houses of the Oireachtas, the President of the Society shall appear before the committee to account for the general administration of the Society.".

A body which has the level and scale of responsibilities that the society will have ought to have a formal accountability role to the Oireachtas. I am happy to leave discussion of the details for a longer consideration but essentially these bodies are set up under legislation. Therefore, there ought to be a process to ensure that when they work, they are clearly aware of their obligations under the legislation. This appears to be the most efficient way to do this. However, I will not be hung on the amendment because I do not want them to be summoned every second week to discuss the price of drugs but there should be at least an annual reporting to the appropriate Oireachtas committee, presumably the Joint Committee on Health and Children. That would be a useful exercise.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I will examine that matter. I would like to do it. Obviously, it relates to their administration functions, not inquiries and so on, which issues they cannot deal with. I will have a look at the amendment and take advice. I agree it would be good if we could make that happen.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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On the situation regarding connected relatives, this goes even further than the ethics in public office connections. I do not think brother and sister are included or the spouse of a child of the person.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Even step-children are included.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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Are brother and sister included in the ethics in public office legislation?

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I think so.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I thought they were not because I thought I remembered the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, saying he would be unable to check up on his ten brothers.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The Senator makes a valid point and I will consider it. Sometimes brothers and sisters do not talk to each other.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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The Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey has plenty of brothers and I remember him making that comment.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is the Senator referring to the additional declaration required of office-holders?

Mary Henry (Independent)
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Yes.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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It only concerns the spouse and family.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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This is quite a lot further than that.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The requirement of spouse and family includes the children.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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But not brother and sister.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I will take that out.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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It seems a little harsh if they must do more than office-holders.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I agree.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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This is a technical amendment.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Amendment No. 102 is in the name of Senator Henry. It has already been discussed with amendment No. 84.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 102:

In page 62, between lines 9 and 10, to insert the following:

"

".

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Minister has already tabled this amendment.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I was advised an Act had been omitted and I am grateful to the Government for having agreed the amendment.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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The Minister has agreed to accept some amendments.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I will be coming back to the House.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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In view of what the Minister has said and she accepted a great deal of our concerns, it would be very difficult for her officials to study them now, would it be agreeable to accept the Bill to go forward in that way?

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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The Minister plans to make changes to the Bill in the Dáil and will she return to this House then?

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Many reasonable and useful points were made in this House which informed me and maybe my officials on some issues. We will discuss the points over the next day and it will be necessary to return to this House with further amendments. If the Bill is amended in the Dáil, I intend to take up some of the issues I mentioned here today and we will have to come back here with the amendments.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I will agree to this arrangement but it is not the ideal way to do business. It is a bit presumptuous to have the Bill in the Dáil tomorrow in an incomplete form. The Minister is proposing changes to the Bill even before it goes before the Dáil.

Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I accept it is not ideal but there are constraints of time.

I thank the Members for a very constructive and informative Committee Stage debate today. It is clear that Members did a considerable amount of work in a short period of time. I was impressed and we had a good debate. There is clearly much interest from the pharmacy profession in this Bill which has been sought for many years. Due to time constraints I am unable to return at this stage with the amendments I have agreed to consider but I will do so in due course.

I thank the Leader of the House for facilitating all Stages of the Bill this week. I thank my officials who are a small group of people sitting behind me. They have been up all night finalising the amendments because I placed a very short timeframe on the work. It is normal to have a longer period of time between Second and Committee Stages but because of time considerations and events that will happen in the summer of this year, time was not available to us.

I also thank the two parliamentary draftsmen who have been involved with this legislation and who will be involved in considering some of the very good amendments put forward. We have already accepted a number of them and the Bill is the stronger for that.

I will check the issue of brother and sister to ensure we are reasonable in what we do.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister and her officials. We support the Bill in general and we welcome the fitness to practise aspect of the Bill which we hope will ensure patient safety. Fine Gael is very keen to have a patient safety authority to cover all areas of medicine as there is a need for such a body. I do not envy the Pharmaceutical Society of Ireland because it will have a lot of work to do when it is reformed and the legislation is somewhat vague in some areas. It will be its responsibility to decide on rules and codes of conduct. Pharmacies have changed in many ways and this Bill will enable them to change further and to meet the needs of patients. It is important that we follow the New Zealand and Northern Ireland example where pharmacies dispense drugs but will also ensure the patient is taking medication correctly.

I repeat my call that the pharmacists from the South would be permitted to work in the North and this is an issue which the Minister could take up with her European and Northern Ireland counterparts. The biggest threat we face is the growing sale of drugs on the Internet to which there is no easy solution but we must redouble our efforts.

Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister and her officials and the Members on all sides of the House who have contributed in a positive way to bringing forward this legislation which consigns the previous older legislation. I commend the IPU and the IPS and the hospital pharmacists, who are often forgotten, on their input. They have made a very positive contribution and lobbied in a realistic and responsible manner. I accept what the Minister has said. She has been forthcoming and accommodating.

When the Bill passes into law, the pharmaceutical profession and the general public will be the beneficiaries. I welcome what has been done. I am looking forward to seeing the Bill back in the House to endorse the amendments made.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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This is a much needed Bill. I hope that when it is passed, it will last for 30 years. With the changes in pharmacy, we need something on which we can rely. It is a pity everything had to be rushed. We could have had a great time for weeks, just like when we dealt with the Bill relating to the Veterinary Council when we had really good sessions.

There is much interest in the House in legislation such as this. I am very grateful to the Irish Pharmaceutical Union, the Pharmaceutical Society of Ireland, hospital pharmacists and individuals who all provided us with support and information. I look forward to seeing the Bill back in the House. I am sure the Minister will address all of our concerns when she brings it before the Dáil.

John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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I compliment the Minister and her officials on bringing the Bill before the House. It was a long time coming, but the Minister made a commitment which has been honoured. The Bill is for the betterment of the profession and patients. The pharmaceutical profession and society can now move forward. The profession has been recognised as an integral part of the health service. Pharmacists can enter the profession and deal with patients on a sound legislative footing. I thank Members for their contributions and look forward to the early passage of the Bill in the Dáil before it is brought back before this House.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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The Minister deserves compliments. This is a good Bill which is dreadfully overdue. It takes political will and clout to get the job done. There is limited political kudos for either the Minister or the Opposition in dealing with a Bill such as this. It is not the stuff that persuades the colourful writers in the Sunday newspapers to talk about it. If they do, they will state we spent a lot of time talking about it and will think that funny too.

It was a worthwhile debate. I thank the Leader of the House for allocating extra time which enabled us to go take Committee Stage in a reasonably civilised fashion. I thank the Minister for her responsiveness to the various amendments tabled by this side of the House. It was a positive engagement, as it usually is when the Minister comes before the House.

I compliment the representatives of the pharmaceutical profession who have shown a capacity to respond to rapidly changing events, given that the Bill and the amendments to it were quickly produced. I also thank them for their maturity. There is a campaign which suggests that a lay majority on a regulatory body marks the end of civilisation as we know it. It does not. It is one way of winning over the public to the belief that a self-regulating profession is also accountable to it and that it is there to serve it, not the self-interest of the profession. I hope other bodies will begin to listen and learn that a lay majority does not pose a threat, but is a way of advancing the cause of a profession.

I compliment the Minister and I look forward to seeing the long list of amendments that Dáil Éireann will have to deal with because of the diligence of Seanad Éireann.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I commend the Minister. It is always a pleasure to have her in the House. She gives of herself and engages with Senators. This is a fine Bill and the pharmaceutical profession will be well served by it. It is historic because it took so long to be brought forward, but the Minister did it, for which I congratulate her. We have been sitting after the Dáil adjourned. This is a legislative Chamber in which Bills are subject to great scrutiny. The Bill was subjected to terrific scrutiny, but the Dáil adjourned three hours ago.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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They are afraid of what might happen at the weekend.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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That may be, but we are still here.