Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We have received apologies from Deputy Dillon. Our witnesses are very welcome. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off. Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references the witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means that witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply.

Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from enquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied by Mr. John Crean, deputy director at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

This morning we will engage with officials from the Child and Family Agency, Tusla, to examine the 2022 financial statements for the Child and Family Agency, the Sláintecare healthy communities parenting programmes, and the use of special emergency arrangements as areas of interest. We are joined by the following officials from Tusla: Ms Kate Duggan, CEO, Mr. Pat Smyth, national director of finance and corporate services, Ms Clare Murphy, interim national director of services and integration, and Ms Rosarii Mannion, national director of people and change.

We are also joined by the following representatives from the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth: Mr. Colm Ó Conaill, assistant secretary in the disability division; Mr. Des Delaney, chief social worker and head of child care performance and social work unit; Ms Marie Kennedy, principal officer, alternative care policy; and Mr. Simon Conry, principal officer. They are all very welcome.

I now call the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, for his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

As members are aware, Tusla was established in 2014 with a broad remit to promote and enhance the safety, well-being and outcomes for children in Ireland. The agency’s financial statements for 2022 record total income of €964 million. Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth provided recurrent funding of €916.5 million and €18.5 million for capital investment. Vote 26 - Education supplied a further €44 million in respect of the school completion programme.

The agency’s expenditure in 2022 amounted to €981 million. A total of €315 million of this was on payroll in respect of around 4,700 whole time equivalent staff. Non-pay expenditure incurred of €633 million included €206 million for grants to community, voluntary and charitable organisations delivering a range of child and family services; €196 million on independent placement provision, mostly in respect of residential care; €121 million on statutory foster care and related allowances; €39 million on guardian ad litem costs; and €47 million on administration expenses.

I issued a clear audit opinion in respect of the agency’s financial statements for 2022. However, I drew attention to the disclosure by the agency in its statement on internal control of non-compliant procurement of goods and services in 2022 amounting to €5.4 million.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you. Ms Duggan is very welcome. She has five minutes to make her opening statement.

Ms Kate Duggan:

I thank the Chair and the committee for the invitation to appear before it today. I am joined here today by my colleagues Mr. Pat Smyth, national director of finance and corporate services, Ms Clare Murphy, national director of services and integration, interim, and Rosarii Mannion, national director of people and change. It has been 18 months since we last had the opportunity to meet the committee and we are grateful once again for the opportunity to be here today. We have been asked here to discuss Tusla’s financial statement for 2022 and parenting programmes. However, in advance of these items, we would like to give a broader update on our work today in 2024, an important year, as we reflect on ten years since the establishment of the agency in 2014.

Over the past ten years, the agency has grown significantly, with a 100% increase in child protection and welfare referrals. We have expanded our preventative family support and educational support work and implemented new services in line with changing policy and legislation, such as the birth information and tracing service. We have developed innovative programmes to meet emerging challenges, such as Covid-19 and the HSE cyber attack, and significantly scaled services to respond to a 500% increase in separated children seeking international protection-unaccompanied minors as result of the war in Ukraine and wider global movement.

Throughout this period, our corporate functions have also matured and developed and we have significantly increased our levels of legal and regulatory compliances. We are grateful for the increasing investment in our services over this period, to an overall budget in 2024 of €1.1 billion, with 75% of that budget allocated to placements, grants and commissioned community and voluntary services. We are proud of the agency’s achievements to date and of the positive work we have done with children, families and communities all over Ireland. However, we remain concerned regarding the core challenges we face, namely, an annual increase in referrals and the changing complexity of many of these referrals; the issues we have around placement capacity in foster care, residential care, aftercare, emergency care, and special care; the recruitment and retention of social workers and social care workers; and the increasing demand across all our community services.

Over the past 18 months, through our alternative care strategies, we have scaled up significantly with the provision of an additional 131 extra beds and the purchase of nine properties. However, as a result of the ever-increasing demand which I have set out, we remain challenged to source appropriate placements for children and young people, particularly those with complex presentations or in an emergency. One area of particular focus for us currently is that of special emergency arrangements, SEAs. Where a shortfall in capacity means a regulated emergency placement or a placement in a statutory, community and voluntary or private care service - either foster care or residential care - is not available, a special emergency arrangement is required to ensure an immediate place of safety for a young person. These are unregulated placements, mostly in rented accommodation, apartments and houses, with staffing from third party providers. While these account for a very small number of the totality of the children in our care, the oversight of SEAs and the provision of additional registered and regulated placements is a priority for Tusla at all levels in the agency, our board and Department.

As many commentators have already observed in the past year, Tusla cannot solve all these challenges alone. Significant interagency and cross governmental co-operation is required to ensure we are meeting the needs of children and young people. We particularly welcome two developments in recent weeks. First, the establishment by the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, of an interagency group on an administrative basis to oversee an interagency and cross-governmental response to children known to us or in the care of Tusla. Second, the joint commitment articulated by me as CEO of Tusla, and the CEO of the HSE, to the full implementation of the joint protocol for children with complex needs, specifically, that disagreement over resource allocation would not prohibit child centred decisions.

As we look ahead, our reform programme continues at pace, and our Corporate Plan 2024-2026 outlines a comprehensive roadmap to the ongoing implementation of this reform to ensure efficiency, equity and consistency in the services we provide. It also ensures that children, families, and individuals receive the right service at the right time, that our staff feel supported and valued, and that we are a trusted and respected public service. We anticipate that service demand and complexity will increase and additional investment in capital and revenue will be required in the coming years to keep pace with this demand. We look forward to further strengthening interagency work with the support of cross-government Departments to better meet the needs of children and young people in our care with more complex needs, particularly those with disability, mental health, addiction, or involvement with the youth justice system.

I thank the committee members for their time and I am happy to answer any questions they may have.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Duggan. The first committee member this morning is Deputy Alan Kelly.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I thank our witnesses. This is an opportunity for Tusla to be open regarding quite a range of issues, many of them not of its own doing. I encourage the representatives to take the opportunity to be open with us on those. The obvious issue I have to raise is the special emergency arrangements. Ms Duggan has outlined it herself in her opening statement. I thought she would say a little bit more considering the recent media reports. It is quite worrying. To begin with, how much was spent last year on SEAs?

Ms Kate Duggan:

€71 million.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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If you go back four years ago, how much would it have been?

Mr. Pat Smyth:

It was less than €5 million at that stage four years ago. It emerged as a post-Covid issue for us.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Therefore, €65 million of an increase in the space of three or four years. That is incredible, is it not?

Ms Kate Duggan:

There are two things. First, I might give a bit of context-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Sorry, I do not want-----

Ms Kate Duggan:

The money first, okay.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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If Ms Duggan could be very brief. I do not want to be interrupting her.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Regarding the special emergency arrangements, what we have seen, particularly over the last three to four years, is a significant increase in demand and that has been driven largely by the number of separated children and young people who have presented into this country seeking international protection. We have seen a 500% increase and we have had to respond to 1,200 young people. These are young people who turn up in our office, brought from the IPO, who on that night have to be found a bed. There can be six, seven or eight of them. On the other side, last week, to give the Deputy a figure, there was about 115 of those young people in an emergency arrangement. Last week, there was about 61 young people, from what we call our mainstream system, in a special emergency arrangement. When I came into the agency first, that was a number that was down in the low 20s and 30s. What we are seeing is that changing profile. Some of it we are attributing to post-Covid. What we are seeing is a group of young people. When we look at the 61 people who were there, only one of them was in a hotel. Sometimes people think it is always a hotel. On that, 86% of those young people came to us directly from a breakdown in home where parents may be involved in criminality or there are concerns around exploitation or about addiction or they have come to us where their behaviour has escalated because of underlying disability or mental health and they are unable to stay in a foster care or residential placement. The demand has driven the cost increase.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The demand has driven it. My issue here is that this is not of Tusla's doing but it has to deal with it. I direct a question to Mr. Ó Conaill. There is a serious issue here as regards resources and it is not all about money. There is a huge staffing issue. I presume Ms Mannion would agree with that. How many vacant posts are there in the organisation, off the top of her head?

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

A vacancy is defined as a post that is not filled in any capacity so quite a number of the vacancies we have are filled by agency or by other grades of staff. On today's date, we would have the capacity to take 200 social workers. That is not saying we have 200 vacancies. It means because of sick leave, career break churn-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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In total across the organisation, how many posts are not permanent or have not been filled permanently?

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

We are at our funded level at the moment so we have our funded capacity within Tusla.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Okay, but how many posts are not filled? How many positions are not filled?

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

I would say in the region of 50.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What I am getting at here is to ask, from a departmental level, what has the Department done to help Tusla on this issue? It is quite obvious that the pay levels and the conditions for working in this organisation, working across the country and across various different layers within this, simply are not sustainable. I want to know what has Mr. Ó Conaill's Department done to help Ms Duggan, Ms Mannion and everyone in this organisation to be able to recruit social workers to be able to fulfil their roles?

Mr. Colm ? Conaill:

There are a number of points. The Deputy is correct and the CEO has picked up on it already. Regarding interagency co-operation, we are moving to set up a group on an administrative basis.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I saw that but I want to know what the Department has done over the past three to four years.

Mr. Colm ? Conaill:

That is important in addressing the reasons children end up in these situations, in terms of mental health disability and other issues going on.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I support that. That is no issue.

Mr. Colm ? Conaill:

Yes. The second piece is that Tulsa was given record funding for this year. It has a 10.3% increase-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I did not ask about funding. I want to know what the Department did to ensure that the people who will be employed by Tusla will work for it because their pay and conditions will be sufficient to allow them to take those jobs.

Mr. Colm ? Conaill:

I am going to turn to Mr. Delaney, our chief social worker, who can give the Deputy more detail on that. We are engaged with other Departments, including the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, on this matter. In particular, we are supporting awareness campaigns and recruitment campaigns that Tusla are doing.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Again, a waste of time. What is going to be done to increase the pay? Otherwise, people are not going to take these jobs.

Mr. Des Delaney:

I might follow on there. A number of forums have been established between the Department and Tusla. One is the social work employers' group at which we are meeting with universities. We are encouraging more people to get into the profession and-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Has anything been done to increase pay? Forget about consultation and all of that. Consultation is fine and dandy. It is good; I get that. However, it is critical that the pay levels in this sector are increased. Otherwise, Tusla will not get workers.

Mr. Colm ? Conaill:

There are fora that are looking at these issues. I have not seen requests for the increase in salaries for grades come through. What we have seen is an allowance for special care. It is for staff working in special care units. That allowance is being actively followed up with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, but I have not seen requests for increased pay.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I have a limited amount of time. I ask Mr. Ó Conaill to provide all correspondence between his Department and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform or with Tusla in respect of pay and conditions over the past three years.

I want to ask Ms Duggan about a report by Mr. Jack Power in The Irish Times on the issue relating to Ideal Care Services. I have to ask about it because what was in the report is frightening How much has Tusla spent with this organisation?

Ms Kate Duggan:

In the year to date, approximately €10 million.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It seems that this organisation provides services under SEA. Basically, documentation was being-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Just hold on a second. My understanding is that there could be legal proceedings in respect of the case to which the Deputy refers. He should discuss the matter without naming the organisation involved.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I will not name it.

Ms Kate Duggan:

I know what the Deputy is saying.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I wan to know how this happened. We have a scenario where an organisation was sub-contracted by Tusla, which, I presume and as outlined earlier, is under deep pressure. Documentation was not screened, there were issues with Garda vetting and yet the organisation involved got close on €10 million over a number of years from Ms Duggan's organisation. How in the name of God did this happen? How could an organisation like this get through all the checks and balances and be paid nearly €10 million by Tusla? It is quite obvious they should not have been let anywhere near doing this work.

Ms Kate Duggan:

I will speak broadly in terms of SEA providers. When SEA providers are engaged by us to provide a service, we obviously set out the requirements, as we would for any organisation providing a service, in terms of vetting and qualifications. As the significant increase in the number of special emergency arrangements in response to Ukraine, global movement and the post-Covid spike we are definitely seeing this in terms of the needs of children arose, we took a much more rigorous approach to overseeing these arrangements. We met with them all individually. We made sure they understood what their requirements were.

Our internal audit systems that we set up in the context of proactive audits, finance, vetting and the quality of services being provided picked up concerns in relation to different organisations. Where those concerns were picked up, they were evaluated. Where there was any concern that there was a risk to a child, we ceased operations with the company involved and, if necessary, referred the matter to An Garda Síochána.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I get all of that. How were they contracted in the first place? It is all very well saying-----

Ms Kate Duggan:

When we contacted-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Wait one second. It is all very well saying that internal audit picked this up. Sometimes, internal audits are not only about money; they pick up on processes and all that sort of stuff. How was this organisation contracted in the first place?

Ms Kate Duggan:

When an agency provides a service for us, it has to give us an assurance that its staff are Garda vetted and are qualified. We and many other of public bodies engage those services. In the context of the get assurances from them, we do not check everything. Some 75% of our funding goes to community and voluntary and private services. We do not see copies of all the Garda vetting reports or people's qualifications. What we see and what we receive are assurances. Because of the fact that these arrangements are unregulated, we decided to put a double lock in place. In addition to seeking assurances and confirmation, we got physical copies of the Garda vetting reports. We also looked for copies of people's qualifications.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Did Tusla get that because it was told there was an issue or did it find it organically by means of the double lock?

Ms Kate Duggan:

We got it organically through our own audit process.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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So nobody told Tusla about the organisation in question.

Ms Kate Duggan:

No. That is the double lock.

We have been very vocal in saying that we want emergency provision that is registered and regulated. We want to use agencies that are registered and regulated. In the absence of that and of a multiagency response in respect of these young people, what I and the executive are taking so seriously is the level of oversight we have put in place regarding these arrangements in terms of rostering, qualifications and vetting.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I have only a few minutes left. Ms Duggan said that Tusla has this double lock, but this is very scary stuff. I appreciate the situation Tusla is in. I have outlined that. In many ways, Tusla has been let down by the Department and by the Department of public expenditure. There are issues there that we will dig into it. I will certainly dig into them. When it comes to this matter, however, what is Tusla going to do differently now to make sure that something like this can never happen again?

Ms Kate Duggan:

There are two parts to it. I will be really quick. First, just to give a level of reassurance, every one of these young people has an allocated social worker. They are visited in their placements. Every one of them has a care plan. We have EPIC involved in terms of doing external advocacy for these young people. We have brought in all of the oversights in relation to the requirements, the double-checking. What we are doing now is we actually have to see evidence. We have gone to the point now of doing sporadic on-the-spot video calls with these units to check identification and make sure that the people that are in our-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What does Ms Duggan-----

Ms Kate Duggan:

-----that we have information.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I ask Ms Duggan to be honest. What could the Department do to help Tusla more?

Ms Kate Duggan:

In the context of the Department, it is obviously going to be additional investment in capital going on into the future. It is additional investment in respect of resourcing and the qualifications of staff. Fundamentally, what we need is the interagency piece. These young people in SEAs-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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They need the inter-agency piece followed up by funding-----

Ms Kate Duggan:

Investment in capital.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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-----in capital, and also investment in pay and conditions.

Ms Kate Duggan:

In revenue. In pay and conditions, particularly in relation to special care allowances. I am mindful that, in terms of the public sector and in terms of the Department of public expenditure, Tusla staff are paid in line with public sector rates for social workers and social care workers.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Why cannot Tusla get staff?

Ms Kate Duggan:

There is a couple of reasons. There is an issue around supply, and that is the work that is happening in terms of increasing the supply of social workers and the supply of social care workers through the education.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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To be honest with Ms Duggan-----

Ms Kate Duggan:

The other thing is this work is hard work.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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From my experience, this work is very hard.

Ms Kate Duggan:

It is very hard work.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I have personal knowledge of this. The pay simply is not worth the lifestyle. That has to be addressed. Maybe Tusla is going about it with this inter-agency piece and it will bubble up from it, but that has to happen.

Ms Kate Duggan:

On the urban allowance as well, we are seeing pockets of areas where, like the teachers and gardaí, we are struggling to recruit, in Dublin-mid-Leinster and Dublin-north-east, where we really need.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is a broader issue. Recently, and I will not cross the line, in the Supreme Court there was a number of orders whereby it was held that Tusla would be held in contempt in relation to two cases of two children where there was a failure to apply for special orders in relation to them. This is also pretty bad. The issue that is emanating from this is that Tusla could not find places. What is going to be done in the Department about this? It is pretty bad when the Supreme Court is going to say the Department will be held in contempt if it does not deal with this.

In respect of guardians ad litem, I would like to ask the assistant secretary general about the legislation. The Child Care (Amendment) Act 2022 provides a statutory basis for the establishment of an independent guardian ad litem executive office. Where is this at? The C and AG has a long history in relation to this going back to 2025. It was referenced again in another report, the year of which I cannot remember exactly. This is going on and on. It seems to be an ad hoc arrangement. My final two questions are in relation to the Supreme Court.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Briefly.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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How is Tusla going to deal with that? Will Mr. Ó Conaill or whomever outline what is being done to put that on a statutory basis and make it in some way functional?

Ms Kate Duggan:

In terms of special care, it is obviously the only service in the country whereby, on a statutory basis, we are obliged to provide beds for children who are deprived of their liberty in order to keep them safe.

We are currently working at about 50% occupancy. We are working at 50% staffing levels. Those staffing levels are in terms of difficulty recruiting but also in terms of the level of assault on staff, with incidents where behaviours escalated with these young people who really cannot comprehend that their liberty is being taken away when they have not committed a crime. It is being taken away because of the safety concerns around them.

In regard to the young people that we have been unable to place, the reason they have been referred to special care is because they have not been able to secure the supports they need within community services, in terms of addiction, underlying grooming, exploitation and mental health services. Because there is a legislative obligation on us to provide a bed it is seen as a way of giving the child a place of safety at a particular time. We have submitted the business case to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform in regard to increasing the allowances to see whether we can attract and recruit more staff into that service. We are hoping the interagency work will prioritise the intervention for children who are waiting for that service. We have also just got some external people who are knowledgeable in this area across a number of fields, to look at what we are doing and to make sure there is no stone that we have left unturned in regard to building capacity.

Mr. Colm ? Conaill:

On that point Deputy, there have been delays over several years. The legislation was passed in 2022 and work is actually ongoing at pace to establish an executive office. A director is going to be recruited in quarter 2 of this year. That director will be hiring other staff on a rolling basis and the office, as it continues to be established, has a consultant working with the Department's team at the moment on the operating model, practice manual, stakeholder engagement, transition plan, etc. There is ongoing active work in that regard.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That sounds good.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I welcome the witnesses. As I have even less time than Deputy Kelly, I ask the witnesses to keep their responses as short as possible. To follow on from the line of questioning on the issue that has been in the news, was the new internal compliance unit that has been put in place the unit that found the issue here or was there something before that?

Ms Kate Duggan:

Within our quality and regulation directorate we have an internal audit function that audits. That proactive auditing that we do picked up an issue.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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And after that-----

Ms Kate Duggan:

After that, we realised that we cannot just take assurances from these agencies that they have Garda vetting and qualifications. We have to physically set up a unit that checks every one of these manually.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How many people are in this compliance unit?

Ms Kate Duggan:

There are now eight.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay. We are certainly not going to talk about a particular agency or organisation with which there is Garda involvement. How many other organisations have been excluded as a consequence of this unit being set up and investigating that?

Ms Kate Duggan:

We have stopped engaging with two agencies.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Because it gives us a better idea, what amounts of money had they received for services before being excluded?

Ms Kate Duggan:

They received €4 million.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That was over what period of time?

Mr. Pat Smyth:

That was since 2020 as well.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is there an ambition, instead of using agencies, to set up an actual public service?

Ms Kate Duggan:

Our residential care strategy, which was developed in 2022, looked at identifying an additional 110 beds over a three-year period. That is what we felt we could deliver publicly in terms of the timeline to build and to recruit. The war in Ukraine and the increase in global movement has come. We have actually set up almost 200 additional beds over that period, but those beds-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Are those State or agency beds?

Ms Kate Duggan:

They are a mix of community and voluntary, State and private. We purchased nine houses since we developed that strategy. We got funding from the Department and purchased nine houses to open State units. Two of those houses are ready to come on stream. We are recruiting for them. The other seven should be on stream at the end of this year, into the beginning of next year.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It can be seen here that it is costing anyway but in fact it is more than a financial cost. There is a potential cost to very vulnerable children.

Ms Kate Duggan:

The financial costs for the agency, to understand, these are young people, most of whom are in single placements because of the complexity of their need. They need 168 hours of care within the week. The average cost of running one of these placements, even if we were to run it, or the community and voluntary sector was to run it, would be about €15,000 a week or €15,500 a week because the staffing ratio is 2:1. It is the other cost-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What is the annual cost?

Ms Kate Duggan:

That is about €400,000.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

In the case of that single piece it is about €770,000 a year to put that kind of cover in.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We are looking at very vulnerable children.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In regard to the family resource centres, very quickly, I had a look at the map. I am not familiar with family resource centres because there is not one in my constituency. Yet it is a constituency with high levels of growth and the age profile is very young. That is similar to the likes of County Meath, Fingal or south Dublin. I was looking at the spread and it does not seem to grow at all with the demand. It is what you have, you hold. Essentially, the areas that have the highest number of young families are the ones where there is least cover in terms of care, which is absolutely bonkers. Then you talk about the follow-on problems and I look at the same issues in relation to my community healthcare organisation, CHO 7, which is the one I am most familiar with. I look at the deficiency of care and I can think of one particular family off the top of my head where you would have to step in because there simply were not services. There was a brass plate with the name of the agency, the children's disability network team, but essentially for people with the most extreme requirements, where there were very serious behavioural issues, there was no option but to take the children into care. The failure there was, they were told to come back in a year's time. The thing about it is, there is a stupidity in how funding is happening.

Will Ms Duggan tell us how we can get that cross-agency approach? The big failure will be predominantly between Tusla and the HSE.

Ms Kate Duggan:

There are two things to say. There are 121 family resource centres in Ireland today, that are called, named and identify as family resource centres. There are many other programmes that run throughout Ireland that look at service provision to families. However, we see an imbalance in terms of how funding has historically been allocated and perhaps not in line with the recognised and known need of the community living in that area.

As part of our reform programme, and we will be very happy to meet Deputy Murphy separately, we are moving from 17 areas to 30 networks in terms of how we structure our services and are looking at the unit of service delivery being a network. We have done some geospatial mapping. It maps all of the commissioned services that already exist within those networks but against the deprivation indexes and the demographics. That will enable us to indicate what we believe to be the evidence that is going to be needed for future resource allocation and resource requests. It will enable us to demonstrate where we need more funding, not just in our child protection services but in that family support, early intervention and parenting services. We will be able to give that by network. That is real progress for us as an agency in terms of what we have done to develop that.

In regard to the work with the HSE, obviously that begins at the front line. That needs to begin as soon as possible so that when a child or young person needs a response, that agencies within those networks are working together to deliver that response and that we are moving away-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We know what needs to happen. Is it practically happening?

Ms Kate Duggan:

Absolutely, huge progress has been made in that area. The difficulty still lies in resources. As I understand it from the work we are doing with colleagues at the HSE, and I may have this figure wrong, there are about 600 or 700 vacancies across disability services. Where the therapeutic support is not available because of the lack of resources, it is very difficult to work jointly with the child.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We have just heard about the huge amount of money it costs annually.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes, for the emergency arrangements.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yet it does not transfer across. Let us say those behavioural issues get to the extreme where there has been a lack of therapeutic care. At a much lower level, that could be managed without it costing potentially €700,000 in the most extreme case.

Ms Kate Duggan:

That is for the HSE and disability and mental health services to answer.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes, I know.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Certainly, we are coming to the table.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I am aware Ms Duggan is not here to answer that. There are, however, silos here and the system is not working in the best interests of very vulnerable people who need care.

On the increase in whole-time equivalent staffing, Tusla was able to recruit people at administrative and managerial grades, whereas the number of social workers fell. That obviously means the caseload rose. The issue is not just pay but also working conditions such as the caseload, as we have heard before.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What is the caseload like and how has it changed in the last couple of years?

Ms Kate Duggan:

Ms Murphy or Ms Mannion may wish to come in after me. The first thing to say is that we are at our funded workforce. One of the positions we have taken as an agency is to say that where we have professionally qualified social workers or social care workers, they need to be doing what they need to do and do not need to be tied up with paperwork and administrative parts of the tasks. Where we did not have the supply of social workers or social care workers we needed, we have recruited other grades of staff. We have recruited, I think, 90 more additional social care workers-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Are there vacancies on the social work side and, if so, how many?

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes. I will let Ms Mannion answer that question. Where we cannot get social workers, we have replaced social work grades with some administrative grades to try to do the administrative parts of their tasks.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes, I understand that.

Ms Kate Duggan:

We estimate we need an additional 200 social workers within the agency and if they were available today, we would reconfigure agency staff and how we allocate our resources to employ those people.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is Tusla employing people on an agency basis to fill those gaps?

Ms Kate Duggan:

We have about 190 people on agency at the moment across administrative functions, residential care, limited social worker-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How much did that cost?

Mr. Pat Smyth:

It cost €15 million for the last two years. That is the pay cost. The additional cost is made up of VAT which will come back to the Government. It is about 10% above normal rates.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is costing Tusla 10% more to do it on an agency basis.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

Yes.

Ms Kate Duggan:

It is important to say some of those agency costs relates to birth information and tracing. It was a short-term piece of work that just needs to be done relative to implementing the new legislation. It was in response to employing agency work to support us with Operation Shamrock, which was around the return of data linked to the HSE. We have very few front-line staff employed by agency where we have sought to convert them but they do not want to convert. We have a target this year of trying to convert 50 staff into mainstream work, but a number of the agency staff employed today are linked to a certain task, which we do not see needing to continue after next year.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

Just to clarify, the majority of those agency staff are usually employed in the residential space, where rosters have to be filled when staff call in sick or whatever on a day. A large element of the agency spend is due to that.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Deputy Murphy.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will come back.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I want to clarify the 10% extra cost. Does that take in everything? Mr. Smyth mentioned VAT at one stage.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

Yes, sorry. It excludes the VAT because obviously that comes back to the State so it is-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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With VAT then, how much is the extra cost to the agency?

Mr. Pat Smyth:

It is 10%. If an average employee costs €45,000, then there is probably an extra 10% added to that for an agency staff worker.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does that take in VAT?

Mr. Pat Smyth:

No, it does not.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The question I am asking is----

Mr. Pat Smyth:

It is about 27% extra when we add in the VAT and the-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Agency staff are costing 27% more.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

Yes. That is 27% more to Tusla but not to the State, obviously.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I understand.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I will focus initially on residential care and fostering. I accept that the explosion in demand in the special emergency arrangements is probably unpredictable in the sense that we have seen enormous numbers of people arriving on out shores. It is saddening to think of a child travelling without a guardian and requiring that level of service and intervention. I accept that is broadly unpredictable from Tusla's point of view as an organisation. I will ask about workforce planning or the planning the agency does to anticipate demand for its services. How predictable is that? Is there a trend whereby we have predictions in demand based on population and then changes in demand within the population that are driving an increase in services? Are we seeing an expansion of demand beyond what we would normally predict?

Ms Kate Duggan:

We would not have predicted the 10% increase in child protection and welfare referrals we have seen year on year over the last number of years. The figure has doubled since the agency was established. We look at that, as an executive management team, in terms of all the data we get from the Central Statistics Office and from other data sources, which the Deputy will be aware of. The new child poverty unit in the Department of the Taoiseach is working very closely with the CSO on trying to predict demand for different types of services related to children and families. The other thing we could never have predicted has been the number of separated children we have been required to respond to since March 2022. Apart from responding to and supporting all the Ukrainian families that came, 1,200 responses were required where young people aged under 18 years turned up on their own and needed the State to take them into accommodation.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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How can I make the distinction? Are these Irish children? I do not want to distinguish.

Ms Kate Duggan:

No, these are separated children seeking international protection.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Okay. I said I wanted to put that to one side as I absolutely accept-----

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes, so in terms of Irish children-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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-----it would have need to impossible to predict that. I am asking about what modelling we do based on population whereby we anticipate services rather than respond.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes. The main modelling we use is the CSO data on age profile and demographics and the indices we get from lots of different agencies, such as Pobal, on homeless poverty and children in direct provision. We are looking at lots of different factors. We are predicting an ongoing increase in the numbers being referred but what we had not expected, and this shows the complexity of the demand that is there, is the very real number of troubled young people aged between 15 and 17 we are seeing who require a response from us in either our child welfare or child protection space.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I asked that question because the next question is how we plan to respond. What is Tusla's policy position on State provision versus community and voluntary versus private provision? Is it a stated goal of Tusla to move towards public provision?

Ms Kate Duggan:

On our residential care, when we wrote our residential strategy in 2022 - the strategy shows all the data we used to inform it - we had a provision of 60:40, whereby 60% of our residential provision was private and 40% was either statutory or community and voluntary. We set out an ambition to first change that to 50:50 provision through the additional 110 beds and then to try to flip to 40:60, with 40% being private and 60% being community, voluntary and State. It is that strategy that led the Department to give us the additional allocation to purchase the units I referred to and in relation to the additional recruitment for those units.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Were those special emergency arrangement, SEA, units?

Ms Kate Duggan:

No, they were residential units.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I have a response to a parliamentary question submitted by my colleague, Deputy Costello, on the number of residentials managed by Tusla or its predecessor agencies since 2013. In 2014, when Tusla was founded, the figure was 44. In 2023, the figure was 39.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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That shows me a direction of travel that is not in the correct one.

Ms Kate Duggan:

There was a decision made over the years to close high-support units within Tusla. The whole focus of the residential strategy was to look at the current landscape and what demands and needs were there and to project out the additional beds. What we had not been able to predict, and this has slowed us down, was the additional staff and money for the recruitment of beds. When we engaged with the community and voluntary sector sustainability was the challenge it had, so we sought and received additional funding in the Estimates to provide additional funding for sustainability to engage with the community and voluntary sector to try to support it to scale its beds such that, in line with Tusla, the community and voluntary residential providers would be able to scale. The challenge we are all facing is the workforce challenge.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I am looking at the non-pay expenditure for 2018 to 2020 in the briefing note prepared by the secretariat, which is very helpful to all of us.

The expenditure, say, on foster and aftercare allowances, flatlined or looks pretty much dead flat. Office administration was in and around the same. There was a slight increase in expenditure on community and voluntary charitable organisations.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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The expenditure that is going through the roof - the red line - is independent placement provision. I object even to the language of that because it obfuscates what we are actually talking about, which is private.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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A phrase that I found in the documentation, which I boked at quite honestly, is "private, for-profit sector providers". The idea of "for-profit" when it comes to some of our most vulnerable children sticks in my craw. It has been said that we have this objective to flip the ratio in terms of public and private provision but I am not seeing residential unit places coming. I have seen a reduction since 2014. Since Tusla has been formed, we have five fewer residential units and I have seen a massive spike in private money. Can Ms Duggan explain whether the massive spike means more placements or - and I hate using this phrase - higher cost per child within those placements?

Ms Kate Duggan:

There is a couple of different factors at play. First, it is important for me to say that there are private providers out there today that provide an excellent service and look after those children.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I have no doubt. I am not casting any aspersions on them but I just do not think the care of our most vulnerable children is an area where we should be applying profit over it.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Our ambition is to change that. As I said, we have been slowed in that ambition because of the demand that has come at us in terms of having to provide a physical location, a physical bed and staffing for the number of separated children who seek international protection. More than 329 young people are being accommodated by Tusla tonight. They have had to have been found buildings, properties, beds and staffing in terms of responding to them. That is a challenge we had not estimated.

Second, in terms of occupancy levels, a mainstream residential unit would have four young people living in that who are supervised, cared for and supported by staff. What we have seen in recent years is a reduction in the number of young people who are able to stay in that type of unit. Often the court, having reviewed their case, has directed that there is to be just a dual or single occupancy unit. Those situations have significantly increased the cost of provision by child either in the statutory or community and voluntary sectors or in the private sector. We maintain that our ambition is that we want to reduce our reliance on private provision. That is why the nine units, which we are trying to open in statutory, over this year and next year, aims to start to shift that provision and dependency.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

To clarify one point, the cost of running a private residential unit is comparable with the cost of a Tusla unit in around €7,000 per week.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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That is why I would much if we provided this care through the State.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

Yes but it is important to clarify that point. The Deputy is absolutely right that numbers have increased in terms of the number of placements in private.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I read the Proclamation as I pass through the foyer and the obligation we are supposed to have is to care for all the children of the State.

On foster provision, during my teaching career I taught a number of foster children. I also met foster parents who do an unbelievable job. My God, they should be better supported because they do an incredible job. I have seen the wonderful work that foster parents have done with the children who they have taken into their homes. On an hard economical analysis, and these figures might be out of date, but a Tusla foster care placement costs around €325 for a children under 12 years. A private foster care placement - and I do not why we would have two types of placement - is about €1,000. I have also seen figures for other types of placement. While I accept that some children are too challenging and complex for foster parents to care for within their homes the cost of residential placement is absolutely through the roof. Should we not better support foster parents? I ask because foster parents are as rare as hen's teeth and they feel under-supported.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Foster care is the best outcome and best value for money. It does not matter what type of lens one applies to foster care, if we get more foster parents into the system and better support them then we will get better outcomes for children and for the State.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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What are we doing to provide the resources, and into public foster care placements, rather than private?

Ms Kate Duggan:

First, last year 90% of our children in care were in foster care. We are, as a country, a European leader in terms of being able to have 90% of children in care in foster care. Similar to the residential strategy that we developed, one of the things that we did and put an awful lot of time into back in 2022 - and I personally met between 500 and 600 foster carers during that period - was to look to see what did our strategy need to be to sustain 90% of children in foster care or even seeking to improve that percentage. One part of that was around the allowance. The allowance was increased in this year's budget for the first time since 2009. One issue they have concerns pensions and their pension entitlements. The Department of Social Protection are looking at that matter.

The biggest issue was the supports that they could get for the children in their care in terms of access to therapeutic supports and prioritisation for access to therapeutic supports. That will be a feature of the interagency group, namely, how do we seek to get them prioritised. From our allocation last year, we made a decision to prioritise for the first time ever a national fostering lead within the agency. That person is now leading out on how we better support foster carers across the agency and working with foster carers on that.

We have, for the first time, introduced a peer support model. We have recruited into Tusla six foster parents to work with us on offering support to foster carers and new foster carers in the regions. We also are looking at how we standardise the supports that we give go foster carers.

This week is fostering awareness week. It is a significant campaign that aims to recruit foster carers and recruit in a changing social environment. For example, how do we recruit people today who are working, who are single or who are in same-sex relationships? These people might not know that they could become foster carers. As we want to support and recruit them, we have a huge focus on that in the agency at the moment. Today, we have well over 3,800 foster care families who are the spine of the care system and, for all of us, look after those children in care so well and we certainly want to do better by them.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome our guests. It is good to engage with them again because it has been a while. Ms Duggan is attending in a different capacity today. I wish her well in her role and the same goes for her team.

In a few moments, I will follow up on a number of issues that arose following my last engagement with Mr. Gloster, who held the same position as Ms Duggan at that time. I will first focus on the home-school liaison scheme and the school completion scheme. I note the annual report states there were 160 new positions created within DEIS schools, which is very welcome. How many vacancies exist in those two schemes?

Ms Kate Duggan:

Does the Deputy mean Tusla staffing?

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Ms Kate Duggan:

I might have to refer to Ms Mannion. I am not sure if we have that information to hand but we can certainly get it to the Deputy.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

We will supply it.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. Please also give us a breakdown vis-à-vis vacancies across Dublin.

The annual report states that there were 5,755 children in care, which is "108 ... fewer than in 2021." What is the figure for 2023?

Ms Kate Duggan:

At the end of December 2023 there were 5,613 children in care. That figure does not include the separated children who are seeking international protection and who are accommodated.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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How many children are in separated care, effectively those who are unaccompanied minors?

Ms Kate Duggan:

I will get the Deputy the most recent information.

Mr. Des Delaney:

It is 159 children in care and 159 children under section 5, so that is a breakdown of over 300.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes, in and around 320 and that is a mix of children who we have taken into care and those who are accommodated by the State. The figure is in and around 320 children every week.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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What is the difference between section 5 versus those who are in care? What is section 5 care?

Ms Kate Duggan:

Section 5, under the legislation, concerns a right to accommodation. It is where children are being accommodated by the State. Again, from a legislative basis, one of the things we have recognised in respect of the cohort of young people, particularly those coming from Ukraine or who are now coming from further afield and the increase in the number of those, is the response that we offer to those people if they are here for the long term.

We asked the Children's Rights Alliance, with the support of the Minister and the Department, to convene an engagement with more than 35 stakeholders to look at how the State can better respond in terms of health needs, accommodation, and their care status. Many of these young people are in contact with their families on a daily basis. There is a question over whether they are coming into the care of the State legislatively, being volunteered into care, or if they are seeking accommodation.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Could I just ask-----

Ms Kate Duggan:

We have just received that report back from the Children's Rights Alliance for consideration. It has a number of recommendations on the legal status, the provision of care and the provision of accommodation. It is for the wider government to then implement them.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The oversight and vetting of unaccompanied minors and the 5,600 children in Tusla's care seems a bit removed from the agency's role. It is charged with protecting these vulnerable children but it simply relies on outside agencies for Garda vetting. Ms Duggan said Tusla just requests Garda vetting. Of course it is in those agencies' interests to ensure that they are completely compliant but is there oversight of that process to ensure that organisations are adhering to what is required? Ms Duggan will be aware of the media reports. There are some very harrowing situations. We want to ensure that the children who are in care are safer in Tusla's care than they were with their families.

Ms Kate Duggan:

There are 5,613 children in care. Just over 5,034 or 90% of those children are in foster care. They are obviously regulated by HIQA in terms of the foster care placements. Of the remaining 408 that are in residential care and special care, special care is also inspected by HIQA and anyone in a Tusla facility is inspected and regulated by HIQA. Where there is an issue is that any young person in a private residential placement, the inspection is carried out by our registration and inspection monitoring team. We would certainly love to see HIQA take on the role.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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How frequent is that?

Ms Kate Duggan:

It is done in the same way as HIQA. The same standards are applied and the inspection and monitoring is carried out in the same way.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Is advance notice given of the inspections?

Ms Kate Duggan:

There is both advance notice and spot checks of the inspections, in the same way as HIQA does risk-based inspections.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry but I have limited time. Does Ms Duggan have the breakdown of how many spot checks are done per annum?

Ms Kate Duggan:

Is that for private residential facilities?

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, please.

Ms Kate Duggan:

We can get that for the Deputy. I do not have it here.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms Duggan not have it here today?

Ms Kate Duggan:

Not for our inspection and monitoring, but it is important to say that we have sought through our Department and the Department of Health that HIQA would take over the inspection, registration and monitoring of all of the facilities, so that there would be equity in that.

Those in the last group, which is the 61 who are in special emergency arrangements, are not regulated or registered. They are the ones where we have put the double lock in to try and give ourselves further assurances around the care being provided.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Duggan for that reply. I want to move on to social workers. I acknowledge what she said about vacancies and the unfortunate decrease in staff numbers. There is a challenge across the public sector attracting staff. Tusla seems to have a problem retaining staff, in particular in this field. I have no doubt that some of the cases that individuals in Tusla deal with are very challenging. I would be the first to say that. However, we were told about 1,669 social workers in 2021 and 1,612 in 2022. What is the figure for 2023?

Ms Kate Duggan:

I will ask my colleague, Ms Mannion, to respond to the Deputy.

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

At the moment we have 1,611. What I would say is that we are stabilising. I would obviously like if that was better but we are stabilising in regard to the social work resource. We very much focus on what we can do. Terms and conditions are outside of our control and remit but we have an excellent people and change strategy, which is really the enabler of the entire reform programme. As the Deputy knows, we are entirely reliant on our people to deliver the service. We are not reliant on machines, computers, or whatever else. That is why that investment is so key.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Mannion for that response. Effectively, Tusla is standing still in terms of the number of social workers for 2023. Could she detail the training and supports available to existing social workers? I have heard reports of a high level of burnout and stress. Given the reduction in the number of social workers the work is obviously falling on other people's shoulders. More importantly, could she detail the oversight and monitoring of the work of social workers?

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

In terms of the entire people strategy, we have eight strategic aims. Each one of them addresses the aspects the Deputy outlined in his question. Supporting our well-being is a key pillar within the strategy. In doing that we have brought in a dedicated induction programme, You Start. We have provided dedicated time for our new recruits when they come in.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When did that programme start?

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

It started last year in 2023. Our current strategy is for the years 2022 to 2024.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Specifically in terms of oversight, how are notes and information on people's files monitored?

Ms Clare Murphy:

I will take that. A professionally registered social worker is subject to what is called supervision. It is a formal mechanism used to monitor the work of a social worker. We also have a Tusla case management system that is ICT-based, and it includes notes. It is the responsibility of the team leader to go into that on a regular basis.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that being done?

Ms Clare Murphy:

Absolutely.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

According to the annual report, a number of complaints were received, which is not unusual for any organisation. Poor communication was at 3% in 2020 and nearly 5% in 2021 but then it jumped to 10% in 2023. What was the reason behind that? Why was there a huge increase in complaints about poor communication? Is that poor communication with the individuals who are in the care of Tusla? Does anyone want to comment on that? It seems like a sizeable jump.

Ms Kate Duggan:

The first thing is that we have put a real focus over the past three years on service user feedback. We want to hear from service users. That is something that perhaps we had not been promoting as much. There is positive feedback but there are also complaints. We see that as a learning system. I do not have the detailed breakdown on communication but one of the real significant parts of our reform programme is about better supporting staff and service users so that there are not opportunities or concern in regard to communication. We respond where we see that there is an issue or where a service user has felt that they have not been communicated with appropriately.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Smyth will recall that I raised poor communication when Tusla was last before us. That is something as simple as a business card for social workers with contact details that means a person can actually get in touch with them. I say that from experience on behalf of constituents who find it extremely difficult to make contact, between social work staff who have left, no one being readily available to take over a case, or those who are on the case and who are very difficult to contact. Have any changes been made in that regard? It is not for us public representatives; it is more important for the public who are dealing with Tusla to be assured that they can contact a social worker and for people to get feedback from their social worker.

Ms Kate Duggan:

There are two things to say in response. That is something that came up in the foster care strategy. Foster carers told us that they felt frustrated that they could not contact social workers. We are trying to strike the balance between access to our social work staff during work hours and making sure that if the call goes to an office or work mobile that those details are available, and that people understand that we have a 24-hour out-of-hours service. I know a person cannot talk directly to a particular social worker but a work mobile number is provided.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are they on a card?

Ms Kate Duggan:

No, we do not have business cards.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Tusla still does not have business cards.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Not consistently across the service.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why is that? This is an issue I raised previously. At the time I was told that it would be examined. That was 13 months ago, and now Ms Duggan is telling me that it is still not there. She must appreciate the situation from the perspective of the public who are dealing with the agency. Social workers can have a huge impact on their lives, yet they cannot be contacted. I find it astonishing that 13 months later Tusla is still wondering about it. There is no consistency across the organisation.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

I think that is a reasonable point.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was 13 months ago.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

Could I point out that one of the issues we have is the protection of staff?

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate that.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

There is an issue with giving out those kinds of details. It is one thing to give a number to somebody, but it is a completely different thing to have a business card that will get around the place.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

We experience a lot of abuse of staff.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate that, too, and we have dealt with that before.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

That is at the core of this. That is one of the reasons people are reluctant to-----

Ms Kate Duggan:

-----give it on a card, but we are-----

Mr. Pat Smyth:

We have tried to come up with other options.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not saying that personal details should be included. I appreciate that. Work mobiles are commonplace. From the public’s perspective, these are not all individuals who would cause hassle or danger to the workers. There is the fact that there is no consistency across the organisation.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Not about the business card part of it.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know, but the business cards will follow into the communications of the organisation. I will ask the representatives to come back to us with a note on that, as well as the other issues.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That should include work mobile numbers. I thank Tusla. I call Deputy Verona Murphy.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is funny, because let me just read this email about phone calls, which I received:

Good morning, Verona. In your discussions with Tusla, could you please bring the following to its attention with regard to its Ardcavan office? When you phone the given number, there is a three-and-a-half-minute waiting time and then you are diverted to St. John's. That has been happening for years. They will tell you there is some problem with the phones. I need to talk to someone urgently this morning in Ardcavan. I have not yet done so, after nearly an hour of trying to do so. That is after trying eight different mobile numbers for social workers. Really, it is not working.

That was yesterday. It just happened that my colleague brought up the fact that it was 13 months. If you have a 24-hour service, that number is what you put on a business card. I do not see how this is some great experience for a foster carer if they have to wait for an hour. They are working people; they are not just foster parents.

An awful lot of backslapping has gone on here this morning. Given the number of issues I have with Tusla, I do not know where its opening statement came from. I am tired of hearing that it is not about money. It is not about money, is it?

Ms Kate Duggan:

What is not about money?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Regarding everything you hear from Tusla, such as its recruitment issues. The issues in general within Tusla are not about money. Is that not the truth?

Ms Kate Duggan:

Our main challenges are particularly in relation to placements and social workers. When we do not have enough social workers, when we do not have social workers allocated to every person, we will see a breakdown in communication and some of the issues-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I asked you-----

Ms Kate Duggan:

But my issue is-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have very limited time. The question was-----

Ms Kate Duggan:

With social workers, it is a matter of supply.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----is it about money?

Ms Kate Duggan:

Right now, our big issues are around the supply of social workers and the supply of properties to open residential units. We are spending €71 million on special emergency arrangements-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is your preference: residential units or foster carers?

Ms Kate Duggan:

Foster carers.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When did they last receive an increase?

Ms Kate Duggan:

This year.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did they receive it?

Mr. Pat Smyth:

Yes.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The full amount?

Ms Kate Duggan:

It is over 20%.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

There is €10 million in this year’s budget. The rates have gone up by approximately 20%.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When did they receive it?

Ms Kate Duggan:

The first part of it was last November and the last part of it will be this November.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

Yes. The next increase will be in November of this year.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How did they get that increase?

Mr. Pat Smyth:

In the weekly rate. It was an increase to the weekly funding they get.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What was the rate of increase?

Mr. Pat Smyth:

It was 9% for the first phase. The rate has gone up to-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That was the first increase since when?

Ms Kate Duggan:

2009.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

Yes.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was since 2009 and they got 9%. Public servants will have gotten lots of increases in that time.

Mr. Colm ? Conaill:

I can clarify this for the Deputy if she wishes. There are two different rates for children under the age of 12 and over the age of 12-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, I do not need Mr. Ó Conaill to tell me that. I am trying to point out that 2009 was 15 years ago, but Tusla is telling me that it does support them. As a public representative, I have never heard from this Department about its issues regarding recruitment, etc. I have heard its chair on the radio saying that most positions are filled. Recently, there was quite an engaging argument between a presenter on one of the radio shows with the chair of Tusla, in which the chair denied that there were any issues and that all posts were being filled. They said Tusla did not have issues. Yet, the issues Tusla has are having a very serious impact on our most vulnerable in society.

I submitted a series of parliamentary questions before Christmas about Tusla’s budgeting arrangements. I have no difficulty with private agencies being employed where there is nobody else. I am not concerned about the money Tusla is spending on them, because it is very clear that there are 60 fewer social workers in Tusla now than there were in 2021, according to the figures from the Comptroller and Auditor General. What is the problem? Does Tusla do exit interviews?

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What does it find from the exit interviews that is causing them to leave? Were they retirements that Tusla is not replacing?

Ms Kate Duggan:

I will let Ms Mannion speak in more detail. In the exit interviews, we see a mix we of people who move on to opportunities in other organisations. Social work has become a profession that is in high demand across the areas of justice, Tusla and the HSE.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On that basis, what engagement has Tusla had with the educational authorities to recruit?

Ms Kate Duggan:

I will let Ms Mannion go into the detail.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, you answer it, please.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Okay. In terms of the educational supply, first, we engaged with the university in Scotland. We are supporting it through a bursary for social care workers to qualify as social workers. We have a new course-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

For instance, how many social workers will qualify in Ireland this year?

Ms Kate Duggan:

Approximately 200, if they do not drop out.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many of them will Tusla employ?

Ms Kate Duggan:

They are all offered a permanent contract.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

For the last three years, we have actually offered all of them-----

Ms Kate Duggan:

Every one of them was offered a permanent contract.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many?

Mr. Pat Smyth:

There were approximately 140 last year.

Ms Kate Duggan:

In 2023-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Well, hold on a second now.

Ms Kate Duggan:

In 2023, 138 of the graduates accepted a permanent contract.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let us go to 2022, for which I have the figures. Something does not stack up. If Tusla employed an extra 140, why-----

Ms Kate Duggan:

No, in 2023, 138 graduates accepted a permanent post.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about 2022?

Ms Kate Duggan:

I do not have the 2022 figures for the graduate programme in front of me.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will point out to Ms Duggan that the figures I have show that there are 60 fewer from 2021 to 2022.

Ms Kate Duggan:

I am just giving the figures-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will read it for Ms Duggan. Regarding social work, in 2021 there were 1,669 and in 2022 there were 1,612. There was therefore no increase. There was a decrease.

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

If I may, at any one time, we can have 100 social workers on maternity leave. Our workforce is 85% female-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They would still be employed.

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

Yes, but they can be on unpaid leave. They can be on a shorter working year. They can be on a career break. We can have resignations, or whatever the case may be.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Tusla would still have to register them as employed.

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

But not as full WTs. If somebody is off on maternity leave, they will come in as a part WT during the year. The Deputy is not looking at the headcount there; she is looking at the number of WTs.

Ms Kate Duggan:

It is important to say that we acknowledge that we have a challenge around social work and social care in the agency. We absolutely acknowledge that we need-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You acknowledged it in 2019.

Ms Kate Duggan:

But I was just telling you what we were doing-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is 2024. Sorry Ms Duggan, just one second. I have limited time.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Can I tell you what we are doing to try to increase that-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No progress is being made within Tusla. There is no progress, and the backslapping-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will ask the Deputy to let Ms Duggan to finish her sentence.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

She has finished.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, she was halfway through a sentence. Finish your sentence Ms Duggan.

Ms Kate Duggan:

What I was trying to say is that we recognise that we are losing more social workers than we are recruiting. In terms of recruiting, there is a supply issue. It is anticipated across all of the sectors that need social workers, we need approximately 500 social workers to qualify every year in Ireland. Right now, there are 200.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But your chair does not say that.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Can I just say three things? I am setting out here today the actions we have taken. We have done bursaries with Scotland. We have a new course opening in Limerick in the technological university in September. We have sponsored a new course to open in Sligo. We have an overseas campaign. We have also now engaged with the Minister, Deputy Harris, to launch an apprenticeship scheme for social workers. Those are all new initiatives that happened over the past 18 months to help us keep ahead in recruiting more social workers.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms Duggan, in 2019, you gave this same speech.

Ms Kate Duggan:

I am telling you-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I read it this morning. 2019 was five years ago.

Ms Kate Duggan:

I was not here in 2019, so I did not.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You were.

Ms Kate Duggan:

I was not. I joined the agency in late 2020.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Well then it is based on the article that was read in 2020. It is still four years on. The reality is this: the chair of Tusla does not concur with what Ms Duggan is saying. They are not his public statements.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Our chair is stating the fact, which is that today we have made a decision. Where we had vacancies in social work and social care, previously we would not have filled them and would have left them vacant. We made a decision within the agency to use the resources that are available today to fill all those posts to better support social workers. If social workers are supported with their administrative tasks in relation to an administrative burden, they may be more likely to stay.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They may, but it does not ever happen.

Ms Kate Duggan:

What we have seen for the first time this year-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Chair, you have used up all my time. Sorry Ms Duggan.

Ms Kate Duggan:

-----150 staff have returned to Tusla this year.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many?

Ms Kate Duggan:

Some 150 staff have returned to Tusla this year.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

From where?

Ms Kate Duggan:

From across the public sector.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Were they seconded there, or what?

Ms Kate Duggan:

They just came back. They have been rehired for vacancies.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Right. Were they administration staff?

Ms Kate Duggan:

They were across the board.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The biggest increase that I am seeing here is actually in the areas of management and administration.

Ms Kate Duggan:

That is because we have been trying to support-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are not actually front-line staff.

Ms Kate Duggan:

No, but-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Tusla is also down two nurses. Where it comes-----

Ms Kate Duggan:

The nurses are in our pre-school inspection programme.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On inspections, most of the people I have contact with who engage with Tusla have nothing good to say. I know of a school that has been contacting Tusla about children for three months without any engagement. The school, the grandparents and individuals within the public have made contact but there has been no engagement. Does that sound normal?

Ms Kate Duggan:

That does not sound-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does that sound like a response?

Ms Kate Duggan:

It does not sound like a response, no.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not good enough, is it?

Ms Kate Duggan:

No, it is not.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Despite that, it is frequent. There are foster carers who tell me that they have not had respite for years while fostering children who have profound needs related to autism. They also have not seen a social worker for years. Looking at parental supports, that is, prevention as opposed to cure, in her opening statement, Ms Duggan talked about the increased number of presentations Tusla is seeing. Did it ever dawn on her that there might be a solution through early intervention and that if we invested in early intervention at some point we might see the number of presentations reduce? I am not talking about IPAS presentations. I am talking about parental support for children who do not get accepted when referred to CAMHS to keep those children out of the mental health system. Without a mental health system, there is no healthcare system, but this does not appear to be on Tusla's radar.

Ms Kate Duggan:

I am not going to take up the Deputy's time but our-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do you-----

Ms Kate Duggan:

-----reform programme is all about trying to enhance our response to children and families at the front door.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

However, when I asked, Tusla had not even allocated a budget for that.

Ms Kate Duggan:

In 2023, we gave funding of more than €232 million to 56 organisations. We gave €7 million for family resource counselling, €22 million for family resource services, €7 million for creative alternatives and €7 million for disability management.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hold on a second. What-----

Ms Kate Duggan:

That is investment.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When I asked Ms Duggan a question about budgeting, she was not able to answer me.

Ms Kate Duggan:

I did not understand the Deputy's question.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You did not understand it?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Deputy put the question again?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The question was submitted as a parliamentary question.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To be fair, there is a lot of back and forward.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I asked about "the level of funding due to be allocated over the next 12 months to agencies within the remit of his Department to support the prevention and early intervention benefits of parenting support". What did Ms Duggan not understand?

Ms Kate Duggan:

That was a question for the Department.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was for both. It went to both because it is Tusla's allocation as well.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are gone way over time. Could the question be submitted again?

Ms Kate Duggan:

On whether the parliamentary question can be reviewed, I will look at it.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If the Deputy is happy to, she can come back to the committee or to Tusla with that.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Going back to something Deputy Murphy recognised, it is also important to say that some of the funding we give out for parenting supports and FRCs is given in the knowledge that those centres will consider where the greatest need is in that local area. While the funding is allocated for general family supports, those centres may decide to direct it to parents' counselling, an after-school activity for children or a response to a particular cohort. Some funding goes out as overall funding for a region, which the local organisation then allocates. However, I will take away the Deputy's question and give her a breakdown.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When Ms Duggan says that they decide, does Tusla just give them the money?

Ms Kate Duggan:

No, we give it to the services-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do they decide when they look for it or when it is allocated?

Ms Kate Duggan:

It is determined through their section 56 agreements.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I had several meetings with the HSE and Tusla regarding a particular child. There was a child protection issue for the whole family based on the child engaging in self-harm. He was an 11-year-old. As an organisation, Tusla promised the sun, moon and stars as regards supports. There were no supports forthcoming and, when the holidays came, the mother was unable to take the child back home. She just could not because of the danger posed to herself, the child and her other children.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Did the child have a disability?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As a result of Tusla not providing the supports it said it would ensure were provided, that child is now in residential care at a cost of €37,000 per month. That is not what annoyed everybody, however. What annoyed everybody was that the child was taken into University Hospital Waterford under section 12 and was provided with 24-hour care in the hospital under supervision from Tusla. Around the clock, there was somebody standing at the bed with the child and yet the mother was not afforded those supports. How can Tusla say in its opening statement that it is engaging with families and doing the best it can when this is happening everywhere all over the country?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would Ms Duggan like to respond briefly?

Ms Kate Duggan:

I obviously do not know this particular case. Does the child have an underlying disability? Does he need a disability residential placement or a Tusla residential placement?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He needed a disability residential placement but the engagement from Tusla that was promised-----

Ms Kate Duggan:

We sometimes have to step in where there is a lack of disability services for children.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What do you mean? I am sorry but, in fairness, I put something very simple to Ms Duggan. I said that I engaged with Tusla as well as with the HSE. There seems to be an awful problem whereby, when they come together, it is nobody's business. Tusla can say it is a matter for the HSE, as Ms Duggan just did, and the HSE can say it is a matter for Tusla.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Residential disability placements come under the HSE. The joint protocol clearly sets out-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The residential placement had to be taken up because Tusla fell down on providing supports to the parent and family. It did not provide the supports it promised.

Ms Kate Duggan:

I do not know the case.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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You engaged with me, as a representative, and you engaged with the family.

Ms Kate Duggan:

I did not.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Ms Duggan did not personally but Tusla did.

Ms Kate Duggan:

I do not know what supports were promised. I will certainly look back at the case and see what the issues were.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We are talking about a very specific case. None of the rest of us know the background. Obviously, we cannot bring up all the details here. With regard to this particular case, I ask that Deputy Murphy-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I believe that case has come to an end. The issue is that supports-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It would be useful for that conversation to happen.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It happens every day. Supports are promised and never employed.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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One of the things that has come out this morning, which is not new to many of us, is that staffing levels in the children's disability network teams and CAMHS across a lot of the country are insufficient. Where I live in the midlands, the last census of staffing levels I saw said that they were at 50% to 60% of where they should be. Staffing levels in some therapeutic services are at 30% and 35%. The interventions that are needed are not happening. The very specific point the Deputy is raising, which is a fair one, is about Tusla providing more support earlier on, which would prevent the situation escalating into a far more serious one, and about the lack of engagement. On that particular case, I ask the Deputy to-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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There is no point in engaging. The child is now in residential care.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I understand but it is important that the Deputy understand what happened there.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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No, what is important is that, when care is promised, it is delivered. If it cannot be delivered, that should be said.

Ms Kate Duggan:

I absolutely accept that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will Ms Duggan give a commitment to answering that parliamentary question?

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is important that the Deputy get that answer.

Ms Kate Duggan:

There is a new CEO in the HSE and I am here in Tusla and, for the first time, we have jointly convened calls as a result of the two agencies not agreeing on a resource. We have jointly communicated that resourcing is not to be a factor in decision-making. I can see significant improvement in how things work at our level in the HSE and Tusla. We are both ambitious for that to filter down throughout the system.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The process is just too slow. As I have said, Tusla's statement from 2020 reflects what Ms Duggan is saying today. I am afraid I see no improvement.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will take a short break and resume in ten minutes sharp.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I call Deputy Burke.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I apologise to our guests for being late but I had to attend questions to the Minister for Health in the Dáil.

I want to raise several issues in regard to the guardian ad litem issue. Are structures in place to deal with the management of the system in its current operation? Are we satisfied we have enough checks and balances in place in the management of this area? The other issue relates to the number of cases where a person is appointed to work with or help a child in a situation where there is a need for that intervention.

Ms Kate Duggan:

The court appoints a guardian ad litem to a case and Tusla then funds that. In 2023, that would have been just over €19 million in funding. Certainly, from the point of view of oversight of consistency and regulation, we would welcome the establishment of the GAL office referred to by Mr. Ó Conaill.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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That office still has not been established.

Mr. Colm ? Conaill:

There was some brief discussion earlier about this. Work is ongoing at pace. There were delays in previous years but the legislation was enacted in 2022 and we expect a director to be appointed in quarter 2 of this year. There is work ongoing by the team in the Department, with consultancy support, to set up the office, and the director will be hiring additional staff as we set up the office. That process will be ongoing through the year and into next year. We are looking at maybe 70 to 100 staff when the office is fully stood up but, in the meantime, there will be a hybrid mix of full-time salaried and self-employed GALs. There is a lot of work under way at the moment to get that office stood up.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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With the legislation in place since 2022, is there a need to ensure it is fully implemented and has the structures in place?

Mr. Colm ? Conaill:

There absolutely is. The Government and the Minister are keen to do that, which is why we are funding the establishment of the office specifically in the budget for this year. Some sections of the Act have already come into effect but the rest of the Act will come into effect on the establishment of the office.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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What is the number of cases where the courts appoint a guardian ad litem?

Ms Kate Duggan:

I do not have the figures to hand but we can certainly get those for the Deputy.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Are we talking about 100 people or 500 people? What kind of numbers are we talking about per annum?

Ms Kate Duggan:

It will be hundreds.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Are there difficulties with the lack of family support a child is to have?

Ms Kate Duggan:

It is where the judge believes the child needs an independent legal advocate. Perhaps Ms Murphy can give more detail.

Ms Clare Murphy:

It is in a situation where the judge wants somebody who is purely and solely dedicated to bringing the perspective of the child into the court proceedings.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Has the number of appointments increased over the past five years?

Ms Clare Murphy:

Yes, we have definitely seen a significant increase in cases where a judge is looking to appoint a guardian ad litem.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Has it gone up by, say, 100% or 200%?

Ms Clare Murphy:

We do not have the figures so I would not like to give a figure, but it has gone up significantly. We can get those figures for the Deputy.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I want to move on to another issue. A large number of children are in foster care but there is a certain group for whom foster care is not available. With regard to the accommodation that is needed, does Tusla believe there needs to be substantial additional investment in that area? Is there a clear plan set out for dealing with that?

Ms Clare Murphy:

We have a strategy for residential care. What we are seeing emerge is a cohort of children and young people where there are high levels of aggression and complex mental health needs, with some of them involved in criminality and substance misuse. Therefore, aside from that strategy, we are also looking at other ways we can meet the needs of those children and young people rather than a typical registered foster home. We are piloting a semi-independent model at the moment and looking at that. Of the children on our waiting lists, 70 of them are 16 or 17 years of age, and we would not ordinarily place a person of that age in a foster care situation. We would be looking at residential care.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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What is the number in residential care on any one day?

Ms Kate Duggan:

There are 5,613 children in care. Just over 5,000 of those are in foster care, which is 90%, and 408 are in residential care, which would normally be our mainstream residential care, but it might also be special care or a disability placement. We then have 61 young people in a special emergency arrangement.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Has there been a substantial increase in that figure and does Tusla anticipate there will be a further increase?

Ms Kate Duggan:

I will mention two things. We have seen a slight reduction in the number of children in the care of the State and a maintenance of the number who are in foster care. That continues to be 90%. What we are seeing is that with children and young people - mainly young people - who are coming into residential care or special care, rather than seeing a significant increase in terms of numbers, we are seeing a significant increase in terms of need, which means they cannot go into four-bed placements. They have to go into single or dual occupancy. That is obviously causing a correlating increase in cost to those placements, but it also means we have seen almost a doubling of the number of emergency arrangements we have had to put in place for children where there has been breakdown at home or a breakdown in a residential unit. We have seen a 500% increase in the number of separated children seeking international protection who need to be accommodated by the State.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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What is the plan after people turn 17 and 18 years of age? These are people who require a substantial degree of support. What mechanisms are in place once they reach the age when it is technically no longer Tusla's responsibility? Is Ms Duggan satisfied that there is sufficient follow-on care? I know it does not come under Tusla's remit.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Once children in care reach the age of 18, they are entitled to aftercare support in terms of the support of aftercare workers. There are also financial supports if people are in education or training up until the age of 23.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is Ms Duggan satisfied with the aftercare support system at the minute? It is something I have come across quite a bit. People have got substantial support when they are younger and then as they get older, that support is not in place, and they end up engaging in criminal activity.

Ms Kate Duggan:

We also have an aftercare strategy as part of our strategies to improve the supports. However, the biggest concern we hear from both young people in aftercare and from a lot of advocates is that the aftercare financial support is only there where a person is in education or training. Therefore, young people who are over the age of 18 who are not in education or training do not get the same level of financial support. With the difficulties around housing and accommodation, they often feel they go from being in a State response to being in a situation where they are struggling to find accommodation or to get the wraparound supports they need.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I will move on to the issue of how the population of the country has substantially changed in the sense that we have huge numbers from abroad. We have more than 530,000 people now working in Ireland who are non-Irish and, therefore, we have a hug number of families where parents are not originally from Ireland. That then poses new challenges within Tusla's area. How is Tusla now developing programmes to deal with the change? For instance, I visited one facility recently in which more than 6,000 people work and there are 95 different nationalities. That must now bring its own challenges. Are we adequately equipped to deal with those new challenges?

Ms Kate Duggan:

I will mention a couple of things and then let Ms Murphy come in after me with more information. We have referenced a 10% increase in referrals to our service and we have referenced a doubling of referrals over the last ten years. What we are seeing within that cohort are significantly more children who need a welfare response, a family support response or an earlier intervention response. Some of those people we are seeing are part of the new communities within Ireland. We are part of the child protection conferences, CPCs, which is where the interagency bodies within communities come together to respond to particular needs in that community. Through CPCs, there have been a number of programmes to support new communities. We saw the change in terms of the numbers who have come from Ukraine. With supportive funding from the Minister and Department, we have funded family resource centres and other community and voluntary services to respond to those families to help them integrate into communities. We have also received funding from the Department to look at family support in each of our direct provision centres.

One of the challenges we are seeing now in terms of a need is around training. We are dealing with new cultures with regard to families and how they parent different to the Irish context. There is, therefore, a focus for us now in terms of trying to make sure that first of all, all those new communities know about Tusla and know how to access it and make a referral and get supports but equally, where our staff are being trained and supported in terms of cultural diversity because that is becoming a challenge. Does Ms Murphy want to add anything?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Murphy might be brief as we have gone way over time.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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May I ask one more question, Chair?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. Ms Murphy to respond, please.

Ms Clare Murphy:

Together with what Ms Duggan said, there are also obviously issues when child protection and welfare issues emerge. First of all, there is the translation issue and having to employ translators. Then, as Ms Duggan said, there can be a different parenting culture. Something we might not find acceptable in Ireland might be acceptable in other cultures. It is, therefore, getting all those nuances right. However, a lot of interagency support is being offered.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Finally, the other issue is unaccompanied children who have come in from abroad. I know quite a number have come in from Ukraine. In any one year, what is the average number of children coming in now? How are we dealing with that?

Ms Kate Duggan:

We have seen a 500% increase in terms of the number of referrals to our service from separated children seeking international protection. We have found that has been the response within that, particularly with regard to accommodation. Therefore, we have had to increase capacity. An additional 131 residential beds have gone into the system over the last year. It has also been around supporting those young people to get access to education and supports and help them integrate into the community. At the moment, we have 339 separated children seeking international protection who are being accommodated by Tusla or in care. Certainly, however, there has been a 500% increase in that demand. We have had to respond to more than 1,200 since the war in Ukraine and since the increase in global movement.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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To stay on that theme for a moment, Ms Duggan said there are 1,200 unaccompanied minors. Is that in total in the last two years?

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes, since 2022.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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From all countries?

Ms Kate Duggan:

They are from a number of countries. Obviously, in light of the Ukraine war, we saw a significant increase from Ukraine.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Approximately 600 per year.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What percentage of those are coming from the Ukraine?

Ms Kate Duggan:

I am not sure. I do not have the breakdown, but we can get that to the Chairman very quickly.

Ms Clare Murphy:

We do not have that, but we can get it. We can also give the Chairman what countries they are coming from.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Generally, would it be-----

Mr. Des Delaney:

I have those figures here. In 2022, there were 597 referrals-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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From Ukraine?

Mr. Des Delaney:

-----and 261 of those were from Ukraine. In 2023, there were 527 referrals and 177 were from Ukraine.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can Mr. Delaney give me those last two figures again?

Mr. Des Delaney:

In 2023, 177 out of 527 were from Ukraine.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, it was between 30% and 50%. Obviously, when unaccompanied minors arrive, Tusla has to provide for them. People obviously------

Ms Kate Duggan:

Just to say, there were days that seven, eight and nine people were turning up in our office in one day.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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This problem has been landed on Tusla. I do not want to say it is a problem but the responsibility for this has landed into Tusla's office. I want to try to figure out what is happening here. Tusla had 1,200 children in two years and approximately 600 of those - 550 or so - were from Ukraine. Has Mr. Delaney's Department contacted the Ukrainian Embassy to find out why and how minors are getting on aeroplanes in Ukraine and arriving here?

Mr. Des Delaney:

We have raised some issues, not specifically-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Not this specific issue.

Mr. Des Delaney:

I have not raised that specific issue.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Why is that?

Mr. Des Delaney:

I have not had that conversation with the embassy.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We have children arriving in this country and this has landed on Tusla's doorstep at a time when we are under huge pressure. I will refer to the staffing issues and what is being done in a minute. I know Ms Duggan is trying to take some measures to get on top of this. However, we have huge resources issues and huge problems with getting suitable accommodation. The tap is still turned on and the sink is overflowing. These people in Tusla have been handed this issue. Where does it begin and end?

Why has this not been taken up with Ukraine? By the way, the ambassador is very accessible. She is a very nice woman. We have met her. She is trying to deal with the difficult situation of the illegal invasion of her country by Russia.

Mr. Des Delaney:

I wish to clarify that. The Department may have raised that issue before my time as chief social worker. I will need to go back and check that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It needs to be raised.

Mr. Des Delaney:

I am part of a forum on the Council of Europe with other member states looking at Ukraine. We have had several conferences on the issue, looking at data and referrals.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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As a country, we have welcomed more than 100,000 people, including in Mr. Delaney's home town, who are in modular accommodation, and that is a good thing to do. It is not acceptable, however, for a country that has relied on this small State to take in more than 100,000 people to somehow have a laissez-faire attitude towards minors arriving here. I ask that the Department take this up with the Department of Justice and the embassy. There is a responsibility on the Ukrainian authorities to ensure that minors are not getting on planes unaccompanied. There are other countries that are the worst offenders in terms of allowing minors on planes.

Ms Kate Duggan:

That would be Syria, Afghanistan and Eritrea.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I understand there is conflict in those countries and the systems may not be functioning as well as they ought to be, but it is a very basic thing that airport checks are done. My God, a minor would not get out of this country unaccompanied, or it would be very difficult to do so. Which age categories are arriving here?

Ms Kate Duggan:

The majority are over the age of 16. Last week, we had approximately 115 separated children being accommodated in emergency accommodation and within that group, 96% were over 16 and they were predominantly male.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Of those, 96% are over 16.

Ms Kate Duggan:

And they are predominantly male.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Are any of them over 18?

Ms Kate Duggan:

We are facing a challenge in this regard. In the context of the legislation and the statutory obligations of agencies, these young people turn up at a port or airport and the first level of screening is at the International Protection Office, IPO. Under its------

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is under the aegis of the Department of Justice.

Ms Kate Duggan:

-----legislation, it determines the age of the young person. Where it believes the child may be a minor, it refers to Tusla. There has been a significant increase in the number of people being referred where, due to the nature of the documentation that is being presented, it is very difficult for us to determine if they are eligible. We are only determining if they are eligible for services under the Childcare Act.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Department is handling the child or young person. I accept that.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Yes. We have to apply the benefit principle but, where we have a concern, it creates a risk. We have to make sure that anybody we suspect may be over 18 is not placed in an arrangement with anybody under 18. We have had to establish separate units. If there is a concern about a person's age, he or she is placed in a different unit.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Duggan is saying that some of these young people may be over 18 and they have to be separated from people who are genuinely under 18. This adds to the problem. The responsibility for checking this falls to the IPO, which is under the Department of Justice. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth looks after accommodation. I want to get to the bottom of this. Are the checks being carried out at the IPO insufficient? I know there is nobody from that office this here morning. This is a question for Mr. Delaney.

Mr. Des Delaney:

This issue falls under sections 13 and 14 of the International Protection Act. Our Department, along with the IPO and the Department of Justice, is having a series of core group meetings. We are looking at that specific assessment process. The Department of Justice and the IPO are presenting a paper to the core group meeting for review next week. We are making considerable progress on the issues raised with regard to age assessments.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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To read between the lines, the committee can take it that 19-, 20- and 21-year-olds have turned up.

Mr. Des Delaney:

Where there is a disputed age assessment process, there are rights involved. A number of judicial reviews have taken place. There is a willingness to make progress on that issue, however. We have made substantial progress in the past couple of months.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The issue of going back through the chain of checks and determining who is responsible has come up in other areas with other Departments that have appeared before the committee. I ask that the Department take this up actively with the Department of Justice. The current situation is not acceptable. I preface this by making the point that we have to help those children who are genuinely under 18 who arrive unaccompanied. That goes without saying. I am not going down the other road. Is there a minor industry operating here, with young people who do not fit into the category where they should be arriving at Tusla's door being put on planes? The number who are arriving is bonkers. There is also the issue of the cost. We have gone through the cost of keeping them, as well as the problem with staffing and all the rest. The fact that 96% are over 16 raises a concern. Can that be followed up with the Ukrainian Embassy?

Mr. Des Delaney:

Absolutely. We will do that. We have another-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There need to be sufficient airport checks in place to make sure those who are presenting as children are children, but we also need to address the issue of how they are being allowed to leave the country unaccompanied.

Mr. Colm ? Conaill:

We can follow up with Ukraine. In the context of the figures provided by Mr. Delaney, however, Ukraine is a much lower driver now of separated children and a decreasing driver of the growth in separated children. That should be noted, but we will follow up on the issue.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We need to help the ones who are genuine and we cannot do so if we have a system that is too loose and not rule-based.

On staffing, I refer to the drop in the number of social workers. We spoke about the CDNTs and CAMHS. That has a consequence that I, as a public representative, find very frustrating. I get a significant number of complaints about it. If the children are not receiving those services, they finish up with Tusla in many cases, unfortunately. There were reports in September that Tusla was short 340 social workers and 244 social care workers. I have several questions in that regard. Are social care workers now being asked to do the work of social workers?

Ms Kate Duggan:

I will let Ms Murphy answer that question. We have employed social care workers in vacant social work roles to do-----

Ms Clare Murphy:

There are certain statutory functions, such as those relating to court and taking children into care, that can only be done by a professionally registered social worker, but there are many other functions that are well able to be done by childcare workers who are professionally trained. Although we have always employed childcare workers, one of the things we have had to do in the context of the deficit in social work is to look at the tasks that were traditionally done by a social worker but are within the competence and capability of social care workers. We have allocated those pieces of work to social care workers. There are no social care workers doing tasks that can only be done by a professional qualified social worker, however.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. What are the current figures? The report back in September stated the deficit was 340 social workers and 244 social care workers. The figures provided this morning indicate there are far fewer vacancies now, but there has not been significant recruitment. Is Ms Duggan saying that report was inaccurate?

Ms Kate Duggan:

No. Part of this relates to the aggressive recruitment drives we have made in the context of social work, social care and other positions. In addition, as Ms Murphy outlined, we have looked at the tasks that have to be done within the agency. Where those tasks are administrative, it is possible for us to employ administrators and try to rebalance that. From 2022 to 2023, we increased by approximately 94 or 96 the number of social care workers within the agency. There has been an increase in that regard but the fact remains that we would need approximately 200 more social workers to make sure we can do everything we want to do, such as to ensure every child is allocated to a social worker, reach full compliance levels and remove the communication issues and challenges that were referred to today.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Duggan stated that we need approximately 500 a year.

Ms Kate Duggan:

Across the country. That is across health, justice and------

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Local authorities need social workers in many cases. Ms Duggan outlined a number of matters on which Tusla is collaborating with a university in Scotland. It is also dealing with the Department of further and higher education.

Mention was made of apprenticeships, which would be brilliant to be brought on stream. I am not sure how we will get around this. It is a societal issue. It is about apprenticeships in general. Some other European countries, Germany in particular, use apprenticeships - including for the trade of two of the witnesses, namely accountancy - to allow people to train and earn, which is a great ethos. You get a great quality workforce out of it. There is a stigma about apprenticeships in this country. The first thing every young one and young fella wants is to go to college. Some of them go to college and it continues on and on. We need to get people into the workforce earlier. In some cases, we need to use the apprenticeship model. How do we get around the stigma around apprenticeships in the case of social workers? It would be a great opportunity if it could be used.

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

We are very excited about this development and are working through it. It is still in draft but we hope to get advertising in May or June of this year. Given the requirement is so pressing, we have found by and large the existing system is very welcoming of the potential for an apprenticeship. This will be a level 9 qualification and is coming through a regulator. CORU is involved and is party to our discussions on that. We are moving. It is a broader question.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it a four-year apprenticeship?

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

Two years. We have work-based learning. This is in partnership with UCC, which has been outstanding in terms of being innovative, working with us and progressing. Initially it is UCC-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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For the person coming out of secondary school, explain the pathway. To get to an apprenticeship, what do they have to do?

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

For social work as it currently stands, because this is a master's degree qualification, the entry criteria we are looking at are an undergraduate degree with a broad basis of social policy or recognition of prior learning. When we advertise, we will look at candidates with an undergraduate degree or lived experience and an interest. We had an excellent report from Dr. Joe Mooney in UCD, commissioned and funded by the Department of children. It is entitled Pathways to Social Work. We can share it with members; it is on the website. A strong recommendation coming-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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After coming out of secondary school, could a person be a qualified social worker in four or five years?

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

I would say six years.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is still quite long, is it not?

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

It is, but we are not going to-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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They would be in paid employment after three years.

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

We will not fix this in a minute. The fact-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know. At what stage would they be in paid employment? If they leave school at 18, then they have to do their-----

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

Undergraduate degree.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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-----undergraduate degree. Will that take two years?

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

It is three to four years, followed by a master's degree, so you are looking at five, whereas the apprenticeship will be two years.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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So they could be in paid employment by 22 or 23 years of age.

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

Yes. As the CEO has outlined, there are numerous strategies in place but, unfortunately, none of them will deliver in a minute. It is a long-term strategy.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that.

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

We have established the social work employers forum, in which we work closely with other employers and university providers. We find the education system very positive and proactive in working with us. Our initial target is to double the supply of social work in the next three years. We could actually triple it, if we look at the socioeconomic issues we face as a country.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I just wanted to get a picture of what is happening there. Tusla's budget has increased this year to about €1.1 billion. That gives it capacity. The balance of admin, management and front-line staff has been covered. The witnesses have explained why they are using admin in some cases to supplement and support people on the front line and carry some of the workload. Is it the case that the HSE is poaching staff? Are many social workers moving over to the HSE?

Ms Clare Murphy:

We are getting some going to the HSE - I would not say a lot - and some going to probation.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is there any two-way traffic?

Ms Clare Murphy:

We have had 150 rehires and some of those came from the HSE.

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

It is a competitive market. We do entry as well as exit interviews. We have dedicated retention officers. We do entry interviews, exit interviews and stay interviews because unfortunately-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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On the exit interviews, what percentage roughly are moving into the private sector?

Ms Kate Duggan:

The main one is where a professionally qualified social worker moves into self-employment as a GAL. It is mainly in our residential services.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What percentage? Is it 20% or 50%?

Ms Rosarii Mannion:

I would say it is about 20%

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Will the witnesses confirm whether the other two excluded providers were for-profit providers?

Ms Kate Duggan:

There were two in total, and they were.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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So the other one was a for-profit provider as well. Will the witnesses give us the top ten providers for 2022, from the point of view of amounts?

Mr. Pat Smyth:

We can. We published these in a previous document. There is one company called Baig and Mirza; it is almost €13 million.

Ms Kate Duggan:

We can talk to it but, rather than the Deputy having to take notes, we can furnish her with it.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The top is €13 million. Was the one for €10 million over-----

Mr. Pat Smyth:

That was over a number of years. This is a one-year figure I am giving here.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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So where would that fall within the ranking?

Mr. Pat Smyth:

In 2023, it was seventh.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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These are all for-profit providers.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

Correct.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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So how in total much did Tusla pay in 2022?

Ms Kate Duggan:

The information we are giving the Deputy now is for 2023.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

It was just over €71 million. That covers all services for kids who are mainstream Tusla, as well as services for kids from abroad, unaccompanied minors.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Moving on to something else, Tusla is trying to open those nine units. I heard the word "trying". What are the impediments?

Ms Kate Duggan:

There are two things. We got the funding for those units. The units have to be brought to a standard to meet HIQA compliance levels, fire and safety and so on. We are buying properties-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How long would that take?

Ms Kate Duggan:

It can vary but around 12 months.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

Nine to 12 months.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is even after Tusla has done modifications and things like that.

Mr. Pat Smyth:

It takes that time to buy the house and get it modified up to standards. Hopefully, in an ideal space alongside that, we will be able to recruit the staff. That has been a challenge for us.

Ms Kate Duggan:

That is the challenge.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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So there is not an impediment other than those kinds of things. I remember, for example, in a domestic violence refuge there was an issue with funding additional rooms and things. There is nothing like that.

Ms Kate Duggan:

No.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Jack Power wrote an article in The Irish Times in July of last year stating that figures from May showed that Tusla was dealing with 22,740 open cases, some 5,800 of which had not been allocated social workers. Tusla is reconfiguring things. The witnesses do not need to go back over that because I understand it but how many unallocated cases has it got at this stage?

Ms Clare Murphy:

Currently we have 5,331 cases unallocated to a social worker but the majority of those have an allocated worker, be it a family support worker or a childcare worker. We have to do a return on those unallocated to a social worker, so that is the figure.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It has not changed dramatically.

Ms Clare Murphy:

It is down 20%. Between January 2023 and December 2023, we achieved a 20% reduction in our unallocated cases.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Would the 5,800 last year have had somebody allocated to them?

Ms Clare Murphy:

The majority would have had somebody allocated to them.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What is the average caseload?

Ms Clare Murphy:

It is very hard to give an average. We have a caseload weighting system, so it would depend. For example, if you were a social worker allocated to a child requiring special care whose case is before the High Court, it would require a significant amount of your time, whereas if you were allocated to a quite stable child in a foster home, it would not require so much. Therefore, it is very hard. Everywhere across Europe struggles on the question of the exact caseload, but there are approximately 15 to 20 cases per-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What would be regarded as the ideal?

Ms Clare Murphy:

I would say that 12 children in care and maybe 15 child protection cases would be ideal.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We are above the ideal.

Ms Clare Murphy:

Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is Tusla funded to get to the ideal? What is it funded for?

Ms Clare Murphy:

We are funded to get to the ideal but we have people opposite social work posts. As Ms Duggan said, in an ideal world there would be a social worker allocated to a case. Now, there might be a childcare worker working on some of the caseload but not all of it. In an ideal world, we would create 200 new social work posts. That is what we need in the system to be-----

Ms Kate Duggan:

Deputy Catherine Murphy said we are here clapping ourselves on the back. I certainly hope that is not the way we are coming across. We recognise that improvements have been made in the agency and that we have more improvements to make. We recognise that we need to respond better and more quickly, with much more focus on early intervention. Our reform programme that we have articulated – members will see our corporate plan is about to be published – gives a very clear roadmap. When we examine the increase in referrals to us, which I have referred to, we see that 45% of those referrals need what we call a welfare response. Today, they are a low priority. They get a screening or an overview and maybe a response at a level that ensures they are safe or able to access the service. We recognise that, to be strategic and prevent children and families from struggling further down the line, we must give a much more responsive service in the welfare space. That will require investment over the next three years, but that will also require a new type of workforce. These people need supports in respect of addiction, counselling, mental health and family therapies. With regard to the reform programme, we envisage that each of our 30 networks will have one multidisciplinary team at the front door that will screen the referrals and identify the responses the children need there and then, either through Tusla or one of our commissioned services. While we are resourced to do what we are doing today, we will need significant investment over the next three years to implement the change programme if we want to do things differently and do things that will be more transformative.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Are the multidisciplinary teams in addition to the HSE’s multidisciplinary teams?

Ms Kate Duggan:

This would be for Tulsa. Right now, all the referrals to us go through a child protection response. A social worker has to examine each and say it either meets the threshold for harm or risk of harm, meaning a child protection response, or relates to welfare, which would be of lower priority and may be referred for commissioned services. We want to make sure that, at the front door, we have our social care and social work staff, perhaps a psychology assistant, a family support therapist and our administrative staff screening to ask what the child needs, the best response or how he or she should be referred to an appropriate service.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Let me return to the family resource centre programme. There are 121 centres around the country and €21 million was spent on them in 2022. If there is not a family resource centre in-----