Dáil debates

Wednesday, 7 December 2005

Ceisteanna — Questions.

Irish Language.

10:30 am

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach the progress his Department has made in meeting the bilingual demands of the Official Languages Act 2003; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [30217/05]

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach an dtabharfaidh sé tuairisc ar chur i bhfeidhm Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla ina Roinn. [31432/05]

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on progress made by his Department in implementing the bilingual requirements of the Official Languages Act 2003. [36867/05]

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, together.

Is cúis áthais dom deis a bheith agam an Teach a thabhairt cothrom le dáta maidir le scéim mo Ranna faoi Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla. I am happy to have this opportunity of bringing the House up to date on my Department's scheme under the Official Languages Act. The scheme was confirmed by the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, in July, and came into effect on 1 September 2005.

During the lifetime of the scheme, until September 2008, we made the following undertakings: on the Department of the Taoiseach websites, the text and graphics on the main pages will be available in both English and Irish; the existing range of documents published in both languages will be expanded; Saturday tours of Government Buildings will be provided in Irish on request; building on our current arrangements whereby a number of staff with proficiency in Irish handle queries for the whole Department, we will seek to ensure that at least one staff member in each division has proficiency in Irish; we will provide ongoing training and development opportunities to improve the Department's Irish language capability; and we will set up an Irish language network of officers interested in Irish, who will share information and advise on, and participate in, implementation of the scheme.

We have already put in place a number of measures to implement these commitments. We carried out an evaluation of Irish language proficiency among staff and commissioned in-house training to meet their specific needs. A glossary of technical terms relating to the work of the Department is being prepared, to assist staff in writing official documents and to ensure consistency of language use. The Irish language network had its first meeting and opportunities for staff to meet informally to speak Irish are being arranged. A module on customer service in Irish and the implications of the Official Languages Act has been included in our induction training for new staff and we provided advice to all staff members on the implications of the Act and on the provisions of our scheme.

I am happy my Department's scheme enables us to improve the service we provide to the public in Irish and to develop a positive culture that encourages the use of Irish both within the Department and with our customers.

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Tá Alt 7 d'Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla ag teacht i bhfeidhm i mí Iúil. Deir sé, a luaithe agus is féidir tar éis aon Acht den Oireachtas a achtú, déanfar an téacs a chló agus a fhoilsiú comhuaineach i ngach ceann de na teangacha oifigiúla. Beidh Achtanna nua ar fáil as Béarla agus as Gaeilge. Cad iad na socruithe atá déanta ag a Roinn le cur i bhfeidhm ansin? An bhfuil sé sásta go mbeidh an obair sin i dTithe an Oireachtais? Tá an t-airgead curtha ar fáil ag an Roinn Airgeadais lena dhéanamh ach tá leisce i measc roinnt daoine an t-airgead sin a thabhairt don Oireachtas. Tá daoine taobh amuigh de na Tithe ar lorg an airgid sin. An aontaíonn an Taoiseach gur cheart, nuair atá Bille ar fáil, obair a thosú ar an aistriúchán go mbeidh sé ar fáil nuair a bheidh an tAcht i bhfeidhm? Déanfar é sin níos fearr má dhéanfar san Oireachtas é.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will do my best to follow the Deputy's question. I understand Deputy Sargent is asking about the delay between the publication of the Irish version of Bills and other documents. I am disappointed if that is the case and the Deputy correctly stated the Department of Finance has provided the resources to the Houses of the Oireachtas and to Departments to provide a translation service. A number of companies are providing a service used by Departments for translation purposes. Within the service, a number of individuals are providing the staff to do so.

I readily admit it will take us some time to build up sufficient staff across all functional areas to provide a comprehensive service. I speak with reference to my Department. A core group of staff exists to translate and deal with memoranda and letters but we do not have them in every area. In the normal course we would segregate correspondence to the section but we must use the core group of staff to improve the service. Based on what the Coimisinéir Teanga stated, my Department has sought to increase staff training at an advanced and junior level. We have built up a dossier of translations to try to create uniformity of reply in Departments. While there have been some delays, we have tried hard and over the period of the programme will continue to try to get proficiency in handling queries for each division. That will take work and time but over the period of the plan we should be able to do so.

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Ní bhfuair mé freagra ar an gceist. I regret the Taoiseach was unable to pick up what I said. The Ceann Comhairle has no problem using the headphones to access the interpreting service and it is quite straightforward. The translation department would have interpreted what I said into English. I must now say it in English as it was not clear enough.

I referred to Acts, not to correspondence or documentation that may have to be translated under the Act. I referred to section 7, the English version of which states: "As soon as may be after the enactment of any Act of the Oireachtas, the text thereof shall be printed and published in each of the official languages simultaneously". That section is to come into force in July and the Department of Finance has provided funding, which I acknowledge.

Will Tithe an Oireachtais be allowed to carry out work that it is capable of doing, given that it has the Bill from the earliest point of publication and the translation work is almost finished by the time the Bill is passed? An effort is being made to take that work from Tithe an Oireachtais and outsource it. This would be grossly inefficient as well as underusing the resources at our disposal in Tithe an Oireachtais. I appreciate outside companies may need to do work on documentation and end-of-year publications. In respect of legislation, can the Taoiseach state he will support Tithe an Oireachtais carrying out this work, as opposed to outsourcing it, given the availability of expertise and experience in the Houses, the staff of which have worked with Bills from publication? It is on this issue I sought the opinion of the Taoiseach.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did understand the Deputy although I am not brilliant. Tithe an Oireachtais is a matter for the Houses but I stated there are five companies available to do work. How the Houses of the Oireachtas and the Department of Finance have deployed resources is a matter for the Houses of the Oireachtas. I stated what my Department is trying to do.

A person who was previously in this position stated that the best translators in the land were in the Houses of the Oireachtas. Former Taoiseach Charles Haughey and I always sought the opinion of the Houses of the Oireachtas on the Irish name when we were setting up an organisation.

I referred to companies that we are using to comply with other areas of the Act and the measures undertaken in my Department. I have nothing other than the greatest confidence in the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Tá brón orm ach níl mé cinnte ón bhfreagra. An gcuireann Roinn an Taoisigh ranganna Gaeilge ar fáil don fhoireann? Cad iad na céimeanna atá glactha go dtí seo ag Roinn an Taoisigh le scéim faoi Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla a chur i bhfeidhm? I wish to know if Irish language classes are being made available within the Department of the Taoiseach. As well as according the public the right to deal with the Department and its agencies in Irish, does the Taoiseach accept it is important to encourage the use of Irish within the Department and the Civil Service? What steps have been taken by the Department of the Taoiseach and the agencies under its aegis to put in place a scheme under the Act?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Secretary General conducted an internal staff survey on how best to implement the scheme. While we had a core group of staff who were extremely proficient in writing, speaking and communicating in Irish, many staff members who were fairly good at Irish did not feel proficient enough to deal with it in everyday situations. Others identified themselves as moderately to very proficient.

The decision was to organise a series of courses for those who are very proficient and those who are less so. The courses are run by Gaeleagras and other outside providers, based on the different levels of proficiency in Irish of the staff. We have also organised in-house language training. The uptake on that has been good, with one class attended by 11 or 12 members of staff. The more advanced work is being done by Gaeleagras.

As I said to Deputy Sargent, it will take us some time to be able to build up the proficiency levels based on these courses and to have somebody in each section of the Department who is proficient in Irish. My Department, unlike others, does not have a high level of engagement with the public, but it deals with other Departments and we want to be able to do that through Irish, if necessary. It is confidently felt that over the period up to 2008, we will be able to do what Coimisinéir na Teanga has asked us to do and honour the commitments I gave in my earlier reply. A great effort is being made by the management, the management advisory committee and staff in the Department. There is no difficulty in getting people to take part in courses and build up their proficiency, but it will take some time.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am glad to note that classes are being held in the Department of the Taoiseach. I do not know if he has attended any classes himself.

Photo of Conor LenihanConor Lenihan (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should not even go there.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I hope the emphasis is on oral Irish and that the Department is in a position to stimulate people to want to participate in speaking the language. When the Taoiseach's Department receives correspondence as Gaeilge, that is, letters in Irish, are the personnel in his Department competent enough to respond in Irish?

That brings me to another issue which perhaps the Ceann Comhairle might deal with. I have received several hundred letters in Irish recently because of my comments regarding the standard of the Irish language. There is no facility for Deputies in the House to respond in Irish to letters they receive in Irish. I can speak the language but I cannot write it competently. When I made inquiries of the translation service in the House, I discovered that the staff there are prohibited from undertaking such work. Perhaps the Ceann Comhairle and the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission might consider making appropriate arrangements so that any Deputy who receives a letter as Gaeilge and who wants to reply as Gaeilge can write the answer in English and have it translated into Irish by staff in the Houses. It would be beneficial for Deputies to be able to reply accurately to letters received in Irish.

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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As the Deputy rightly said, the second question is a matter for the Commission of the Houses of the Oireachtas. While referring to it on the floor of the House is an unorthodox way of raising the matter with the Commission, I will be glad to raise the issue.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will send the Ceann Comhairle a detailed note.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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In reply to the first question regarding correspondence in Irish received in my Department, several members of staff can deal with such correspondence. However, we do not have people in every section in the Department who can do so. Such correspondence is dealt with on a departmental basis, which is not perfect. We would like to get to a situation — we include the Secretary General and most of the senior staff who have very good Irish, both oral and written — over the period up to 2008 where we would have a competent person in each section so that people who do not normally deal with correspondence in, for example, the EU division, the economic division or the Northern Ireland division, no longer have to do so. That is the challenge. We are not in that position today but the challenge is to get there. It will probably take approximately three years to achieve that.

Photo of Pat RabbittePat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Is it intended at any stage to review the efficacy of the Act, how it is functioning and so forth? Does the Taoiseach think, for example, the requirement that every official document be published in both languages is the best use of public money to stimulate greater use of the Irish language? Apart from the cost for every organisation producing a bilingual report, the amount of hours that goes into doing so is considerable. Is that the best use of money or would a similar bequest to TG4 produce a better response from the public? How many Members of this House read the English or Irish version of the documents that land on our desks? If we do not read them in this House, how many people outside read them? I wonder if there is any consideration——

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Act is the responsibility of another Minister. This question should refer specifically to the Taoiseach's Department.

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to my Department, implementation of the Act must be kept under review. Deputy Rabbitte makes a fair point about the number of people who will even read the English version of many of the documents, not to mind the Irish version, although that is not to be disrespectful in any way. Another factor that we must watch closely is the overall cost because if it comes to the point where everything must be translated, the cost could be enormous. I have noticed in some written parliamentary questions I have answered on this matter that this has been the case. It is good that there are outside companies to provide the translation service but they can charge a great deal and will do very well.

The initial Supreme Court case referred to a translation requirement for legislation and statutory instruments, if I recall correctly. We will have to keep it under review in the period and that is a fair point to make. After a certain period, we will have to see what the reaction has been. While not wanting to give the wrong impression — I really wish I could speak fluent Irish — the level of engagement in my Department with correspondence in Irish is approximately 1%. Therefore, we would have to justify spending in that context. There are central documents, issues and data that should be translated, but the overall process will have to be kept under review.

Photo of Trevor SargentTrevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Ó thaobh conas a chuirfear i bhfeidhm an tAcht, cad a cheapann an Taoiseach faoi thuairiscí atá foilsithe leis an Ghaeilge agus an Béarla bun os cionn óna chéile? Ní mar sin a bhíonn an saol.

I know the Taoiseach has an interest in Irish but I imagine he would like to see the Irish and the English side by side, as I would because I do not have all of the Irish terminology that is required. Does the Taoiseach think there is a need for his Department to give a lead in that by doing what the Welsh do, whereby the Welsh and English are on the same page and illustrations have both a Welsh and English subtitle? This involves the same amount of work ó thaobh aistriúchán de but would make documents much more practical and accessible to the majority of people on this island who have a certain amount of Irish but would not be as proficient as they are in English or would need some help while reading one or other language. Does the Taoiseach think his Department should give a lead in ensuring that the Welsh model or the model used in Canada or anywhere else where there is a serious effort to facilitate a bilingual community is also followed here?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Subject to correction, the strategy statements of my Department were published in that way. I am not sure what document the Deputy has in front of him, but it is probably the Government mid-term review, which went to an outside company to be translated. I accept that for ease of reading, especially for people without particularly good Irish, it makes sense to have both languages on the same page. As far as I know if strategy statements are prepared in-house they follow the Deputy's preferred method but if done by outside companies they follow that method. I will raise it with officials in my Department.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will be brief. Does the Taoiseach accept there will be a degree of nervousness within the Irish speaking community and those of goodwill towards the language throughout the country at the response he gave to Deputy Rabbitte to the effect that he was keeping an open mind on the exercise of measures in the Act?

Photo of Rory O'HanlonRory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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This question refers specifically to the Taoiseach's Department. I suggest the Deputy submits a question directly to the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Taoiseach accept it is important to reassure the House that cost factor is not always the priority consideration?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that cost is not always the priority especially with important documents. Deputy Rabbitte made the point that some documents were widely read but others are not. In response to a question here recently I said the cost of preparing a particular document in English was €685 but the cost of the Irish translation was just short of €17,000. In terms of some documents we should not change things, but for others I must consider if that expenditure can be justified in the longer term. Whether a document is important and in demand from Irish speakers should be a consideration.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Taoiseach reviewing how to have documents translated or whether there is a need for them to be translated?

Photo of Bertie AhernBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The sheer volume of work involved in translating everything must be kept under review. If a document is important, for example those connected with education, then it must be translated into Irish regardless of cost but the costs over a period of time are substantial and must be taken into account. We will translate everything until 2008 but we have to keep it under review.