Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 25 November 2025
Select Committee on Children and Equality
Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 40 - Children and Equality (Supplementary)
2:00 am
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We have no apologies this evening so I expect full attendance of the select committee. The agenda item for consideration this evening is the Supplementary Estimates for public service - Vote 40. On 12 November 2025, the Dáil ordered that the Supplementary Estimates for public services in respect of the following vote be referred to committee for consideration: Vote 40 - Children, Disability and Equality. At today's meeting, the select committee will consider these Supplementary Estimates and report back to the Dáil once this meeting concludes. I remind members that only matters relevant to the Supplementary Estimates for 2025 can be discussed at this meeting. I welcome the Minister and all of her Department officials this evening and thank them for the briefing material provided. I advise that this material has been circulated to members in advance of the meeting.
While I acknowledge the Minister, Deputy Foley, has responsibility for children, disability and equality, and reference is made in the briefing provided by the Department to additional funding required for disability services, I must advise all present that the remit of this committee only permits for the consideration of the children and equality aspect of the Supplementary Estimates. Therefore, questions put by members should be focused on children and equality. I can confirm that the Select Committee on Disability Matters will consider the Supplementary Estimates tomorrow, 26 November. Following its consideration, it will report back to the Dáil separately. I am informed that officials within the Minister's Department were advised of the position regarding the remit of this committee and have made reference to the remit restrictions in the brief provided. The proposed format of this meeting is to invite the Minister to deliver an opening statement. Following her statement, I will open it up to members of the committee.
Before we begin, I have a few housekeeping matters to go through, as always. I do not think we have any members on MS Teams at the moment but just in case, I advise members the chat function should only be used to make the team on site aware of any technical issues or urgent matters that may arise during the meeting and should not be used to make general comments or statements. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.
Before we begin, I advise the members and the Minister about parliamentary privilege as follows. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.
That completes our housekeeping matters so I will now proceed with the meeting. I invite the Minister to deliver her opening statement.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the committee for making time available this evening to consider this Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Children, Disability and Equality. The Department is responsible for the areas of disability policy, equality policy, child protection and welfare, prevention and early intervention, family supports, early learning and childcare, adoption and youth justice detention services, along with legacy issues in relation to mother and baby institutions. My priority is delivering and securing a positive impact for those whom we serve - children, disabled people and those who experience inequality and disadvantage in our country.
Our work is guided by the Department’s vision of a fair and inclusive Ireland where people’s rights are realised and where everyone is supported to reach their fullest potential. The Supplementary Estimate for the Department is sought principally due to cost pressures associated with the demand for services being provided by Tusla and the HSE from a disability services point of view. These cost pressures require an upward adjustment to the Department’s total Vote allocation for 2025. In summary, cost overruns of €329.6 million are forecast for this year. Savings of €115.9 million are also forecast across various subheads. Therefore, the overall value of the Supplementary Estimate is set at €213.7 million.
I will now turn to the various components of the Supplementary Estimate. In respect of Tusla, a supplementary requirement of €60 million is forecast. This comprises a forecast overspend of €38 million on the main Tusla subhead, A3, and a €22 million forecast overspend on the Tusla contingency subhead, A6. Tusla is dealing with very significant and increasing service demands in 2025. Tusla has 5,837 staff, including 708 social workers and 509 social care workers. These staff are currently dealing with 105,000 child welfare referrals this year, up from 96,000 last year.
Tusla’s overspend on its main subhead, A3, is largely driven by demand-led expenditure on private residential care placements for children. Tusla is experiencing a significant increase in the number of complex cases of children requiring placement in care. A large proportion of these children are engaging in types of behaviour that may be challenging for placement within foster care, which is the preferred form of care where possible.
Around 87% or more of children in care are looked after by foster carers. I take this opportunity to thank them for their invaluable role in providing a loving and caring home environment for the children in their care. However, there are cost pressures in the foster care area. Tusla is working to improve the supports for statutory foster carers. In budget 2026, Tusla has been allocated new funding to expand the foster carer peer support programme and foster care recruitment teams, bringing the total budget for foster care to €152 million. The foster care allowance was increased by 21% last year in order to support the recruitment and retention of foster carers. Additionally, this year, foster carers will receive a bonus payment at the start of each initial foster care placement. I was also pleased to announce additional mileage support for foster carers who have significant travel responsibilities.
There are cost pressures in the areas of guardian ad litem and special care, as well as administrative and other costs. The overspend is partially offset by a forecast underspend on pay due to slower than expected recruitment. In relation to the guardian ad litem service, I am pleased to inform the committee that I secured funding in budget 2026 for reforms in this area. Guardians ad litem play a vital role in gathering the views of children in care proceedings and making recommendations to the court on their best interests. The planned reform of this area will ensure that we have a responsive and accountable system for care proceedings and that the voices and rights of children are upheld at every stage.
The overspend on Tusla’s contingency subhead, A6, is driven by demand-led expenditure on private residential care placements for unaccompanied minors from Ukraine and separated children seeking international protection. In the area of specialist community-based disability services, there are also pressures being experienced at this time. This element of the Vote is being considered by the Select Committee on Disability Matters tomorrow.
The Department is forecasting a supplementary requirement in the specialist disability area of €267 million. This is driven by increased residential placements, direct pay and agency costs, respite, day services and home support and personal assistance hours, children services and other cost pressures, including costs in relation to section 38 and section 39 providers. I note to the committee that officials from my Department and the Department of public expenditure have been monitoring and continue to monitor the expenditure and allocation to the Department by way of regular meetings since the start of this year.
I recommend these Supplementary Estimates for the Children, Disability and Equality Vote - Vote 40. I am happy to address any questions the committee may have.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is proposed to publish the opening statement and briefing material provided on the Oireachtas website, is that agreed? Agreed.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for her update. I want to start by focusing on some of the underspends. I noticed there seems to be some underspend with the ECCE access and inclusion model, AIM. Was it all in relation to AIM? What steps are we taking to increase AIM? I noted from the briefing material that you do not need a diagnosis to access AIM.
However, I have visited many schools that have preschool, and they are of the understanding that you do need a diagnosis. Is there a communication issue, and does the Department have a strategy to address that?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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One of the great successes has been the ECCE programme. We have a 96% uptake, and it is giving the best start at the earliest point. I know the Deputy is also a great supporter of that.
On AIM support, there was the original three hours offered and then the extension of a further three hours to ensure children would have an additional opportunity with AIM. The uptake of that additional three hours has not been at the level we originally anticipated. That is where we are at. I will delve a little more into that. In some instances, parents were of the view that it suited them to just have the three hours. It did not necessarily suit all of them to have the additional three hours, but there may be more to it than that. I am doing work to see exactly why that additional uptake was not taken up. If we can change anything or do something differently going forward, I am happy to do that. I am glad the Deputy identified it. It is an area we are looking at ourselves to see what we can do going forward.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I did not realise that, so that is a good update. I know there is a delay and an element of underspend in the building blocks scheme. It references a complex legal process. I assume that is in the State taking security over a property, and if there is already a mortgage lender on it, there are probably a priorities agreement and a charge document in favour of the State. Is that what is causing the issue?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it was quite protracted with the contracts. It is the most significant investment from the point of view of building blocks that we have undertaken. There was considerable and protracted engagement on the contract because it was something new. It was to ensure we were protecting the investment of the State with the question of the 17 years and all of that. All those contracts have been agreed and signed. We are up and running now and that is a positive. There was a delay but there was great learning from it as well. I am committed to there being a second type of building blocks programme next year. Because of what we have learned this year, it will be smoother. We had to make every effort to ensure we were protecting the investment of the State. It was protracted for that reason. There were other issues with the building blocks scheme where some of those who put forward proposals did not actually own the land. There were a lot of difficulties there. We have them ironed out at this stage. All contracts have issued, and I think nearly all of them have been signed.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I am glad to hear that we are almost at full signatures across the board. Everyone who was successfully allocated was offered a contract. Does the Minister think we will be able to proceed with all of them?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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That is our hope, provided they are able to fulfil the negotiation around the contract at all of that. They have all been issued and we are proceeding as normal.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That is good news. I know we are looking at this year's Supplementary Estimates, but that should hopefully set us up in good stead for next year's building blocks scheme and there can be good communication to the applicants as to what is required in terms of the various legal documentation and steps to be taken.
There was an underspend on D7 related to equality. I want to understand that. I am focused on the area of equality, and I welcome the Minister launching the new national strategy for women and girls. What was the underspend of €500,000 related to? Will it affect allocation for it next year? It is mentioned in the small footnote at the bottom of the Estimate. If the Minister has the information, I would appreciate understanding what that was about and whether it will affect the allocation for equality next year. I very much hope it will not.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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It will not affect the allocation next year. I am absolutely sure of that. I think the specifics were to do with IT savings and technology.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the Minister.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Hers is the only Department saving money on IT.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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If there is any further detail I can provide, I am happy to do that afterwards. It is my understanding that it was in the area of IT.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I would appreciate it. I want to make sure that no schemes or initiatives have fallen off because of it.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely not. I acknowledge and appreciate the Deputy's presence and support at the launch we held for the national strategy for women and girls. It was a positive day, and I appreciated the Deputy's personal support. We are doing a lot in this area to narrow the gender pay gap and ensure that girls and young women have the maximum opportunity. We will not, in any shape or form, be reducing any of the funding the Deputy referenced.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I will pick up on some points raised by Deputy Boland on the early learning and childcare schemes. Am I right in saying that ECCE overspent, that AIM underspent, that there was an overspend on the national childcare scheme, that core funding was an underspend and that Equal Start was an underspend? I am new to this process, so I want to confirm that.
In relation to Equal Start, I am surprised that there is an underspend. I know it is a new scheme, but it is very much needed in areas of disadvantage and concentrated disadvantage. What has been learned there because it has started from a small base? It is great to see that in budget 2026 the funding has been increased by 30%. What has been learned for Equal Start? It is an important project.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with the Deputy that it is. As its name suggests, it is about giving the best opportunity at the earliest point to ensure that there is equality. It was launched in October. Looking at that again, I think we would launch it that bit earlier next year. Some 432 out of the 543 have now taken up the opportunity. When something is new, until it takes root and people become more aware of it, there can be a general reluctance initially. I think we have overcome that bit by bit. At this point, 432 have come on board. We will reach the maximum in the next short while. When the programme is up and running, it will give more encouragement for the second year, but there can be teething problems initially. I would agree to do more communication, explanation and support about it. We are happy to do that.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That would be welcome. I have received some feedback on Bia Blasta, which is an incredibly positive nutritional programme for the childcare facilities. However, the communication seemed to be a surprise to some of the facilities and services. There could be further engagement with the services.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that. When something is new, there has to be confidence building around it. We are happy to look at that more and foster stronger relationships. Where it has been taken up, it has been really positive. We have received nothing but positive feedback on it. Those who were initially included were positive, but if we can do better at communicating and bringing people with us, we will certainly do that and we will learn from this. I take the point.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The positive childcare programmes of AIM and Equal Start are targeted services, and they have both come in under budget.
It is a potential red flag for families, considering our child poverty rates, that we are utilising every euro and it is getting to the children who need the most.
On that point as well, was consideration given to an issue I have raised with the Minister before in committee around the means-tested subsidies? I have explained previously how some of the parents that I have met saw their subsidies decrease whenever the fee adjustment was brought in and I wondered whether any consideration was given in the Supplementary Estimate to look at either increasing the thresholds or increasing the subsidies.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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We are in the throes of completing the action plan. We are looking at what opportunities we have. The more money we have, the more I would like us to do. That is the ambition of everybody here as well but we have work within the constraints that we have.
The action plan will be released before the end of the year. There is only a number of weeks left in the Dáil session. We will make some announcements around some aspects of what the Deputy has raised there.
There will be two phases to the action plan. What we do not achieve this year, we will be looking to achieve in the next four years as part of the lifetime of the Government.
The second phase of the action plan will be on foot of public consultation. That will be really helpful to us because it will identify issues that the members all identify here. That is a particular one that Deputy Currie has identified but it will identify issues from providers, from parents and from the widest possible scope. It will inform what we will do within the next three years after we have completed the second phase of the action plan.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for listening to those concerns. I look forward to seeing phase 1 and phase 2.
Can I ask a question around the €60,000 reckonable income as the threshold for means-tested subsidies? Has that changed since it was introduced in 2019?
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That underlines the importance of it. The fact that the fee adjustment last year was not seen and the impact on those families last year is something that I am glad that the Minister is going to take on.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I do not disagree with the Deputy. I absolutely do not.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. In 30 seconds, the core funding also seems to have an underspend. We have a lot of providers out there that are talking about operational costs rising and inequity in their fees.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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The core funding underspend is largely due to the employment regulation order, ERO, and the time that commenced. That was October. The Deputy would be aware that €45 million was ring-fenced for that purpose but it is an independent process from the joint labour committee. We do not have any control over that. There was a slight delay in all of that going through but the Department is independent in terms of all that.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister and thank her officials for what they have provided before today and for being here this evening.
First, in relation to the mother and baby home scheme payment, it is deeply disappointing to see another underspend this year, similar to last year. In the report that was published in June of this year by the special advocate, she has done her job in terms of the clear failures in the scheme, the six-month rule and the exclusion of a number of institutions. I have referenced Michael Grant, who was in Temple Hill. His mother paid five shillings a month for him to remain there for almost the first year of his life. I do not know how it is not deemed to be one of the institutions. Is the Minister looking at the recommendations by the special advocate? If you are experiencing abuse, whether you experience it for a month, five months, six months or six years, that six-month rule, which I have never understood, is wrong. When we are handing money back, now is the time to look and see how many more of those survivors can be supported. It is deeply regrettable that they have been disregarded as they have. The Minister should take the opportunity to do right by them in terms of this payment scheme, which, to them, is a very small amount. Many of them are in their later years. The recommendations made in that report should be considered carefully. Is that work under way?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I have a few points on that. Sincerely, I hear what the Deputy is saying. Obviously, we want the maximum number of people to avail of the opportunity here.
Seven thousand applications have been received. Six thousand and three hundred of those have received what they call the notice of determination, in other words, the decision or whatever. More than 5,000 have received an award at this stage and approximately €76 million has been expended.
There is until March 2029 for people to step forward here. There was always a view, rightly or wrongly, that people may choose to come later and closer to the 2029 date rather than earlier in the process. That is the view because of the experience, I suppose, of previous schemes. Notwithstanding that, I hear what the Deputy is saying.
There is also a commitment that a review will take place, beginning in September 2026. I am committed to that review taking place in September 2026, and obviously have taken note of what the advocate had said. We also published a response to the advocate at the time. I am determined that we will continue to engage with the special advocate as well. That is where we stand currently. I am committed to that review, beginning in September 2026.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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It is unfortunate that something could not be done between now and then, given the special advocate has been put in place. The special advocate has called for the urgent expansion and she has done her homework on the failings of the scheme. Sadly, people will have passed by the time this review takes place and be left with nothing. It is not right.
In her opening statement, the Minister referenced foster carers. Foster carers in the State have looked after, brought into their homes and given love and care to, in some cases, hundreds of children throughout their time fostering. They have given years of their life to fostering and when they come to the age of 66, they have no State pension. I have raised this issue with the Minister repeatedly. The solution is there in terms of family carers. I remember engaging with Heather Humphreys, then Minister for Social Protection, in terms of the solution that was created for family carers, which has worked so well. Again, I ask the Minister, rather than starting from scratch or looking at something new, to look at that solution for foster carers. It is wrong that these people who do what they do in looking after our most vulnerable children are left at 66 without a State pension. They are left to live in poverty. I hosted foster carers here a couple of months ago. They spoke of the hardship and the poverty experienced having given most of their lives to fostering children and I want to make reference to that again.
I acknowledge that there have been improvements in terms of the budget. The Minister is committed to foster carers and to improving things for them but the State pension needs to be dealt with quickly. The Minister will be aware of that. I have raised it with her previously so I will move on.
I note the other underspends in terms of core funding and building blocks. My position in terms of building blocks is that there is a need to expand it to new and existing providers, but so that you can buy an existing building. It is more environmentally friendly. It removes vacancy of a building. It is usually in the centre of a town. It is the best and the quickest way to build capacity at a time when we need almost 50,000 childcare places in the State. I hope that the Minister will consider that for building blocks next year. It would make a huge difference, particularly in rural areas.
I understand that a number of applicants have pulled out of building blocks. They were made the offer and have pulled out for a variety of reasons. I am aware of one large childcare provider that was unable to take up the offer of the building blocks grant. They were desperate to expand but they could not. They cited substantial increases in construction, legal and professional fees since the initial announcement, as well as grant limitations which excluded essential works such as painting, fittings and equipment. They said they would not be able to fund to cover that. That needs to be looked at in terms of the building blocks scheme in 2026.
Lastly, on core funding, it is also regrettable to see an underspend there but I take what the Minister has said in terms of the ERO. Is the Minister taking feedback from providers that are pulling out of core funding?
I know it is always said that it is a small number, but whether it is a small number or a big one, the only people who suffer are parents because in some cases they face extremely high increases in the amount they pay in fees. Whether it is one, ten or 100, given the impact it has on parents and the financial pressure that is put on them, could feedback be sought, if it is not being sought, when a provider pulls out of core funding?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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It is part of the legislation that the review of mother and baby homes would be done in September 2026. I appreciate what Deputy Kerrane says.
I again hear what she says in terms of the State pension for foster carers. There is a commitment in the programme for Government to look at that. It is a matter for the Department of Social Protection. It does not fall within my remit.
In terms of Building Blocks and €750,000 being the maximum in that regard, it has been raised time and again in terms of the costs and challenges. We will see what scope there is to address it in 2026. I cannot give the Deputy an absolute commitment at this stage but we will see. There are other issues as well in that regard, some of which the Deputy has flagged.
In terms of core funding, I want to see where the highest level of people are participating in the core funding model. The level we have is quite unprecedented. We always seek to capture the reasons people might choose to withdraw. We also have a new provider forum as well, which I gave a commitment to set up and it is now up and running. That is also a very useful mechanism as well to receive feedback.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister and her officials for being here and for the opening statement. It is much appreciated. My colleagues have probably asked all the questions on AIM, Equal Start and the underspend, which was of much concern.
There is a €3 million overspend on ECCE. Could the Minister go into a little bit more detail on it? How long did it take us to get to the high participation rate of 96%? I am just trying to figure out how it compares to AIM or Equal Start.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy very much. I will be shot for saying this, but I actually think it is a positive thing that there is an overspend in ECCE. I am a great believer in it. It is the best possible start for a child. The fact that it is free makes it all the more acceptable. In fact, more than 70% of low-income parents whose views have been sought have said they would never have been in a position to avail of ECCE if it had not been free. There is an overspend here specifically in relation to additional children who have come on board over and above what was forecast. A number of children came into the country, or whatever the case might be. Again, it is a positive that all children receive that equal start. If we had to overspend on some of them, I have to say I would die on the cross for that one.
In terms of the 96%, it has steadily increased - it was 95% and now it has gone to 96%. It is my ambition that we would actually get to 100%, but I recognise that parents must ultimately make that decision themselves as to what best suits the family. I would never take that opportunity away, but I want all parents to know that it is there, it is free of charge, and all children are welcome to it. We have full participation at primary school level and we should really be seeking to do the same in the early years.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister's commitment to foster care is clear, given the changes that have been made so far. Hopefully we will see the pension access in time. A body of work has been done on kinship care. I just wonder if she could give us an update on it.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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In general, in terms of foster care, I consistently say that it is the best option for a child who needs to be taken into State care. It is a phenomenal opportunity being provided by people where they open up their homes. Also on the positives, we have been working hard to increase the number of new foster carers coming on board. This year we have seen the highest level. I acknowledge that the advertising campaign and promotion campaign on foster carers has been very strong. I am sure many Members will have seen it. It has been very positive. We have seen some improvements and I would like to see more as well. We specifically referenced the pension already. There is a programme for Government commitment on that as well.
We are doing a piece of work as well around kinship care. We must acknowledge that it is a reality for lots of people. I hope to make some announcements on that in the not-too-distant future. Any type of security that can be provided for a child must be supported. We recognise that there will always be different challenges, individual needs and individual challenges. I will revert to the Deputy as soon as we have matters finalised in that respect.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister. In terms of core funding, what percentage drop-off did we have this year versus last year? Does the Minister have that figure to hand for providers?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I can give the Deputy the numbers. As of 25 November, there are 4,566 providers in contract for the scheme. That is almost 93% of all eligible services. It is the highest level we have ever had. Within that, 98.98% of not-for-profit services are covered and 90% of for-profit services are covered. The overall level of coverage is almost 93%; it is 92.84% or something like that. That is a real positive. We would like to be in a position to grow that number. I recognise that there are always going to be challenges, but we are very keen for providers to work with us. We had the new providers forum as well. I recognise the great service they provide. There are private providers and those who provide community services as well. There is a whole variety of them and then there are the new dimensions that we are perhaps going to follow ourselves in terms of State-led provision as well.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I know I do not need to ask the Minister this, but I will anyway. There was a recent announcement about an increase in funding for family resource centres and the opening of five more. That was really welcome. In my area there is the Trim Family Resource Centre and there is one in Kells as well in Meath East. They are deeply grateful for that money to increase and support the services they are providing. The Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, opened a new youth diversion project building in Trim last week. The family resource centre is at the centre of that project, even though it is separate. It is involved in everything. Family resource centres are growing, so I ask the Minister to please continue her support for them.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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There is enormous support across the House for the work of the family resource centres. They do such a diversity of work. Wherever they identify a need, they step in automatically. They often step in even without having any tranche of funding coming to them. They do it where there is a need. I am a big admirer of their work. I recognised that in budget 2026. We have secured that a further ten family resource centres will be announced.
I was also very keen that we would have an opportunity to increase the funding that is going to the centres as well. Those who are at the minimum rate of €1.60 would go to €1.80. For some that meant a full €20,000, and for others it could have meant €18,000 or €10,000. It depends on various factors. More of them were in receipt of more than €180,000. Suffice to say that they are very much in my line of vision and will be for the coming years, please God.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister and her officials for coming here today. Could I go to the area of special disability and the need for an increase in the €267 million? The Minister states there are a number of reasons for the direct payment.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That will be discussed tomorrow in the disability matters committee.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is noted in this brief, but it will be dealt with in the Estimates tomorrow.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, it was the residential placements that I was going to ask about. That issue relates to Tusla. I would be shocked if there is not a need for a greater level of funding. It is in or around €60 million. I will follow on from what Deputy Kerrane said about the necessary work that foster carers are doing.
We definitely need to meet them halfway. When we went to the event Deputy Kerrane organised, the big shock was those people who said they would not necessarily get into providing foster care if they were starting over again. That is absolutely frightening.
We are seeing an increased number of referrals. Is a significant part of the cost in this regard driven by unaccompanied Ukrainian minors and those seeking international protection, who fall into the same bracket?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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On funding for Tusla, it received an increase of €145 million last year, and in budget 2026, an increase of €170 million. Every cent of that is appropriate and deserved. Tusla itself would say it is being significantly resourced for the work it does. It will also receive a capital allocation of approximately €35 million for capital works.
The Deputy asked about the demands on Tusla. There is significant demand in terms of unaccompanied minors, whether children and young people from Ukraine or young people seeking international protection. That has placed a significant demand on Tusla, which is a demand-led service, in terms of providing accommodation for those young people.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There is a serious increase in the number of referrals to Tusla at this time. The joint committee had a meeting last week with the ISPCC and a number of NGOs involved in everything from very early intervention right through to youth diversion, the Greentown project and other initiatives like that. Many of those witnesses spoke about the referrals to them from Tusla. That makes me worry about Tusla's capacity. No matter how well the Minister or the agency itself says it is funded, we are aware there are issues in this regard. We have not got to grips with the interagency aspect and dealing with the complex cases that arise. I accept that we have additional complex cases other than those coming from abroad, and they must be dealt with, but we have very specific issues in terms of the numbers going through the roof. When Ms Kate Duggan, CEO of Tusla, comes before the committee, the most important conversation I have with her will be after the meeting in regard to a number of cases of which I am aware. I have seen a frightening number in the past fortnight. I am not entirely sure what the issue is other than that the complexity is increasing and the number of cases is increasing. What is proposed to be done to grade those cases?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I do not disagree with the Deputy. This year alone, Tusla has had 105,000 referrals, which is up from 96,000 last year. Many would say that is a positive, with everybody being a mandated person and so on.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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However, I recognise the significant demand being placed on Tusla. That is the reason for the significant uplift in its funding, and rightly so.
The Deputy referenced very complex cases. There are a number of challenges in this regard. There is the challenge of the unaccompanied minors from Ukraine and young people seeking international protection. There are also, as the Deputy mentioned, very complex individual cases where young people may require special care or whatever.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In some cases, we are coming too late to the game. We talk about early intervention but we are not necessarily able to deliver it.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I will revert to my other hat in terms of early learning and so on in saying I believe in programmes like Equal Start. The earlier we intervene, the better. I also believe in the various youth diversion programmes and so on that the Department of justice runs. I absolutely agree with the Deputy on that point. There are significant demands. To open a special care bed, for example, it takes seven to eight individuals. A case was raised with me last week where 16 people were required to man one bed, such are the complexities a young person might have. If that is what is required and appropriate, then it must be put in place. I absolutely want to see that being done.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I accept there are cases like that but if we could do the intervention aspect a lot better, we would save ourselves an awful lot of money and would not need the same level of capacity.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I agree, and it has to be implemented across all the different levels.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. Other terms that are used a lot are "interagency" and "all-of-government approach", but those concepts have not been applied properly to this field.
Agencies that are Tusla-funded or funded through the Department always have their issues. We talk about the need for multi-annual funding but many of them have raised instances where they did not have decent communication around auto-enrolment and whether the State will look after those paid by the State or if they will have to find additional moneys they do not necessarily have.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I might just go back to the interagency issue because I want to be fair. The Minister, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, has engaged quite a bit with our offices.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I acknowledge that as a very significant positive, where appropriate. It is not always the answer but it is a positive when appropriate.
I acknowledge that many of the funded organisations are facing significant challenges and many are carrying significant deficits. I am crossing over into another area here but there has been a significant increase in this budget and there will be further discussion on that tomorrow. For the Deputy's benefit, in case he is not here tomorrow, I will be saying there is a significant uplift that will increase the funding going to a number of these organisations.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister not see an issue in regard to auto-enrolment?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I am not saying that or that we will be able to wipe out all challenges. I am saying that in respect of the cases raised with me in terms of funding challenges, we have a significant increase of €618 million going into the whole disability area. That will be a support.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat, a Aire.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ward wants to ask a question before he has to run to the Chamber.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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I thank the Minister and her officials for their attendance. My question concerns the number of foster carers and the increased allowance of 21%. Does that amount to a significant increase? I am interested in the figures. I was at an event about this a few weeks ago. In Donegal, we have had a lot of inquiries about what is going on, particularly regarding the 21% increase and the pension. Will the Minister give a brief outline on that?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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There is a programme for Government commitment to look at the pension. I acknowledge the issue and that there is important work to be done to achieve it. Regarding the allowance, I genuinely, hand on heart, do not believe the money is a motivating factor at all for people providing foster care. I have never thought it was. Notwithstanding that, it is matter of due regard and, for that reason, we have given the 21% increase. I do not have the specific figure to hand but I will get it for the Deputy.
There has been an increase this year in the number of foster carers stepping forward for the first time. We are rolling out, which has been a help, peer-support programmes where foster carers support other foster carers. Where that has already been rolled, it seems to have been very significant. In addition, we are giving a specific payment to those who take on foster care in the initial stages of a placement, which is also a positive. There were 3,809 foster carers on the panel of approved foster carers at the end of 2024. I will get the latest number for the Deputy. What is coming back from the recruitment campaigns is very positive and we are told there is an increase. I will get the exact figures to the Deputy. If he wishes to raises a specific issue in his own area, I ask that he contact me about it.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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I thank the Minister.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister and her colleagues for their time. It is always worthwhile to have an opportunity to discuss these issues. Putting my public accounts committee hat on for a minute, I am of a similar opinion to the Minister that an overspend in this area is always better than an underspend. It is always questionable when we see an underspend in one or two areas. Many areas in these Estimates are pointing towards a trend.
Has any analysis been done of the competency, ability, time and resources available to people to draw down the funds that are available? Could it be made less complex or challenging, notwithstanding the rigours that need to be in place? If there are barriers, whether IT infrastructure of whatever it is, could that mechanism be made easier?
On Tusla, it is noted in the documents that much of the overspend relates to private residential care but there is €14 million or so outside of that €30 million that is also overspend. Where is the majority of that overspend going?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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On the point about people being challenged in drawing down funding, that should never be the barrier. The funding is there. If there are specific issues, we are happy to look at that. Issues around building blocks were raised earlier. Those were the intricacies of the State satisfying itself that its interests would be protected in terms of the 17 years and all of that.
We are talking about a €60 million overspend for Tusla. That is broken down into things like residential care. This is demand-led. We referenced it earlier when I was speaking to Deputy Ó Murchú.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is the additional overspend. We had the residential. What are the other elements of overspend? Is it wages of staff? Is it capital?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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There are other things like the setting-up of the new guardian ad litem office. Additional funding is required for that.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How much would that be?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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We are talking a number of millions - €5 million or €6 million - in and around maybe €5 million.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Has the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation been involved in that reform? Has a cost-benefit analysis been conducted comparing it with the current system with regard to guardians ad litem?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely. There are 3,500 children in the care of the State who have access to a guardian ad litem. The purpose is to ensure there is a national office or service which will be a regulated guardian ad litem service. It is appropriate that the service be regulated.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Would the Minister accept a critique of that reform is that it will potentially lose some independence, given that with regulation comes Tusla responsibility for the service? The role of a guardian ad litem should be, in theory, independent of the State. Is there a risk that when we go through with this reform, which will cost us millions, we could lose not only very efficient access to service but also an independent voice that advocates on behalf of children?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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It will be an independent voice.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Who will manage the service?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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There is a director of the office.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is it Tusla?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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No. A director has already been appointed and the office will run appropriately. Any discipline you work in these days is regulated. It is important that this be regulated also. Where there is not regulation, there are always questions to be answered.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I am not saying that to cast any aspersions. I am just saying there are opportunities to introduce a better model going forward.
The overspend is in relation to the present guardian ad litem model. The work done by the guardian ad litem is so important. It is important the child's voice and needs are heard in court and in every sphere I have worked in. In education, it is so important the child's voice is heard and we now have within the Department of education a special unit dedicated to ensuring all policies are child proofed. All policy across government should give children and young people the opportunity to engage in it. That is run from my Department and I am very proud, though it was prior to me, that facility is being afforded to all Government and State agencies. There can be a coming together of youth advisory panels, Comhairle na nÓg and so on. They are all getting the opportunities for the voice and vision of children to be heard.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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On building blocks, I will give an example about the €750,000 cap. In Kildare we have a shell of a site that has been on the market for the last couple of years for €600,000. By the time it is fitted out and made ready, we are well in excess of that €750,000. I am not asking the Minister anything right now but am just flagging that the figure can become a difficulty, certainly for the community I am working with right now.
I echo colleagues' feedback on family resource centres. The announcements have been extremely positive. To hear the Minister announce there would potentially be ten more and, potentially, an increase in funding to pre-existing services is important. Where would those ten additional services be going next year? I might as well ask.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There is a wonderful one being considered in north-west Kildare, which would have an unbelievable impact on families out there.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I would love to do the Santy Claus on it and ensure they were being provided everywhere we could provide them, but it is dependent on the funding available. We have funding for X number this year. If all things are equal, it is my ambition that every year over the next four we would add more and more. We will begin with the next number of them. If things are as I would hope they would be, we will add more the following year, and more again. Maybe not ten. It could be less, it could be more. I could not even say at this stage because it will all depend on the budget negotiations.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will take my seven minutes and I think we will have time for a brief second round. Deputy Kerrane has already indicated. Members can be thinking about their questions.
I am very disappointed, as I am sure the Minister is, by the underspend of €67.8 million on the legacy of the mother and baby institutions. We will have the review in September 2026. We should do all we can to step it up further and ensure anybody who is entitled to compensation gets it. I echo Deputy Kerrane's comments about the people who feel they should be in the scheme but are not in it. In the review, could that please be looked at? I know of survivors who were not in institutions but were in State care around that time and who feel they should be in that scheme. If there is an underspend, it is important to look at who we have left behind.
My next question is around the underspend on AIM. The Minister mentioned the extension of hours was potentially a factor there. Was there any underspend related to recruitment issues for AIM?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. On the mother and baby homes, I want to say because I did not say it earlier that there has been a huge advertising campaign undertaken at home and abroad. I visited London and got some feedback on the things they were doing. They were doing outreach throughout England and other places. They are doing similar at home. Quite a substantial figure has been expended on leafleting and advertising on social media. I raised recently the fact I am a great believer in local radio and that is one we should be looking at. I do not want people to feel we are sitting back and saying, "If you come forward, you come forward, and if you don't, sure, that's grand too." We are very proactively out there, trying to do more and more, and we will continue to do more. It is our experience that there is slower application at the start than later.
I would like to see maximum uptake of AIM because it is an additional support to ensure a child with an additional need is fully supported and integrated into the system. The AIM plus forecast was 26% and 24% was the uptake. It was out but it was only slightly out. I go back to what Deputy Boland referenced earlier. I feel everybody here would be of the same view.
Where we find we have to do more in this space, we will do it. Whether it is communication or some other kind of support that is required, I want every child who can to benefit. We will continue to-----
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In the childcare sector, people are struggling to retain staff. AIM works with children who have additional needs. We are losing childcare staff to SNA positions. My question was about whether some of the underspend related to recruitment.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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That has not been particularly flagged as an issue. However, it is in its first year. There are an additional three hours. Sometimes, it can take time to root. However, we will do more to get it mainstreamed
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will move next to the Child and Family Agency. There has been a huge increase in the number of referrals. It is up from 96,000 to 105,000. That is an increase of 9,000. Do we have a breakdown in that regard? We have an increase in unaccompanied minors from Ukraine and in international protection minors. Perhaps there is not a breakdown yet.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have it to hand, but I can request it and have it forwarded to the Cathaoirleach. As stated earlier, the system works when people are prepared to refer. In other words, when people are recognised as mandated persons and all of that. However, there needs to be an element of education about when it should be done and how people can be supported in doing it. The fact that we are getting more referrals is positive. It means that more is being placed on the shoulders of Tusla. We are prepared to fund whatever Tusla requires to the maximum extent. Tusla has said that the funding it has received this year, in addition to the capital funding it will receive under budget 2026, is a significant uplift. Notwithstanding the numbers, which do look significantly high-----
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for cutting across the Minister, but I am conscious of time. We are saying that the system is working with more referrals, but we do not know whether the 9,000 increase in referrals is a national increase or the result of unaccompanied minors coming in. The system could be working well and that could be why we have more referrals, but if it is an increase in unaccompanied minors, the system might be-----
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Not necessarily. The part of Tusla that provides care for unaccompanied minors from Ukraine or young people in international protection is a significant draw on the organisation as a whole in the context of providing special emergency accommodation and so on. It is standing up as many of them as it can, but it is demand led. In recent weeks and months, we have seen an increase in the number of young people coming from Ukraine, now that they have been given the freedom to leave Ukraine and travel. It is particularly young men.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We would all like to see an end to the war in Ukraine as quickly as possible, but it does not seem like that is on the horizon just yet. Is our plan to continue to use private residential care placements or do we intend to expand our own?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I recognise the time constraints. The capital fund that will be made available to Tusla in 2026 will involve a significant increase. It is €35 million, and it is a 100% increase on what Tusla got in this area in 2023 and 2024. As a result, we will be looking at Tusla standing up more services.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. I am strict about my own time as well.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I will return to the issue Deputy Farrelly referenced, namely guardians ad litem. The Association of Guardians ad Litem,. AGALI, has raised significant issues about the coming reforms. I will give one example. We talk all the time about the importance of the child's voice. Under the new system, there will not be guaranteed legal representation for children. The parents and the State will have legal representation and the child will perhaps have a social worker who has never set foot in a court in their life. That takes away the voice of the child. AGALI has raised several issues. It has sought a meeting with the Minister, but that has not happened. It is raising issues that are very concerning and I urge the Minister to sit down with AGALI. Its members are women in particular who have been guardians ad litem for many years and they are very concerned about the voice of the child being diminished in what is being announced.
Does the Minister foresee the review of core funding in the programme for Government to be a review of the entirety of core funding or will it be a year-by-year approach? The Minister is looking at year one at the moment. I am unclear whether the commitment in the programme for Government is a full review or year on year.
Will the Minister provide an update on the providers, the administrative burden and the work due in the report on administration and the issues in that?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is correct that the core funding is for year one. That will tell us a lot about how to proceed. It was meant to be a review of the technical operation, how it has worked and so on. However, the review will inform the next steps.
The Deputy asked about the administrative burden and where we are going with it as regards operators.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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There will be an action plan around that. Work has been done in terms of gathering the views of everyone involved, including providers. Indecon has been involved. The sole aim is to reduce the administrative burden. I meet people all the time, providers in particular, who highlight some basic things that could be improved upon.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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There has been a lot of spending by Tusla on private residential care. What is the average cost of a placement in private care?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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It can depend on the needs of the child. For example - and I am not saying this is necessarily the case - the needs of a young person will determine the staffing levels, so it can vary.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate the work being done to recruit more foster carers. Is there an ideal number we would like to get to in order to alleviate the pressure on private residential care and recognise that foster care is generally accepted to be better for children?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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We are at more than 87% in the context of foster carers. I would like to see it at a greater level. I am of the view that 90% or more would be ideal because I recognise that no one situation suits every young person. While foster care is a positive opportunity for young people, I recognise there might be some complexities for a child or young person so there will always have to be an alternative. However, I would like us to reach 90% if at all possible.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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There was an underspend on the children's and young people's policy framework and other programmes. Did particular initiatives not happen? If so, can we make sure we deliver?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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It was because recruitment was slower than anticipated, but I will get the Deputy further detail on that.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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If we did not have the people, it would have affected the initiatives we were trying to deliver.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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It was to do with parental support advisers. It was that specific. As stated, the recruitment process was just slow. However, it will not affect the initiative insofar as we will continue with it.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I do not expect the Minister to have the answer to my question now. It is a follow-on from what the Cathaoirleach asked. We need a breakdown of the number of the referrals to Tusla. For the complex cases in particular, can we separate those who have come from abroad and those who are from Ireland? If we are looking at an increase in complex cases, there is also a need at some level to look back at the history of the State's involvement with some of these individuals and families to see whether there are things that could have been done better. I have no doubt that the latter is the case. This is from the point of view of learning and getting to a better place. We need to have information. On the basis of what the organisation said to the committee on the previous occasion, there has been an increase in Tusla making referrals. That tells me Tusla is under severe pressure. We know about the other issues.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I will seek that breakdown in terms of referrals.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding referrals to Tusla and unaccompanied minors, be they Ukrainian or children seeking international protection, there is no correlation. They are two separate things. I will seek information on the complexity and the reasons and types of referrals to Tusla.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is the piece because I can see it myself and you hear it anecdotally regarding what organisations are dealing, namely, that cases have got worse and the children are younger. We need a whole set of resources to deal with that.
What are the results of the things set up by the Minister on recruitment and peer support when it comes to foster carers? Has there been an increase? We all accept that more needs to be done when it comes to direct supports for them.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I have met with foster carers who have spoken really positively about that. The 21% increase in funding is another factor as is enhanced mileage where they are doing longer journeys. There has been a number of different things. I would be slow to say it was one thing over another. It is a combination of things.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Going back to Tusla and the underspend on staff due to difficulty with recruitment, I know there is a lot of burnout, there have been a lot of complex cases and different staff have been injured every now and again, so I know it is not the easiest place to work but it is really important work. I note that out of the 5,837 staff, 1,217 are a breakdown of social workers and child welfare officers. Is there a plan to increase the number of behavioural support specialists? I know we have special care but we might not have step down from special care or a step up to high support if there is a difficulty in recruitment due to really complex cases. What is the solution?
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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It is interesting that the Cathaoirleach mentioned therapeutic supports because they are now being integrated as part of the special care arrangement as well. That is really important and not before time in terms of recruiting other staff. Regarding social workers, there are two new initiatives around the tertiary degree programme starting in the ETB set-up and moving on as well as the earn and learn apprenticeship-style model, which seems to be really positive in terms of generating more moving into the field of social work. Tusla is recruiting abroad and this is garnering a dividend. Nine people have been recruited from abroad while a further four will begin in the next week or so or the short term. A further six people from abroad are being finalised, particularly in the area of special care, so that is 19. We are always mindful that more needs to be done in this sphere. A grade in special care has been introduced with a significant increase in remuneration in that grade as well.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We spoke a lot about increases for family resource centres. I met Barnardos today while we heard from different organisations last week such as Monaghan Children and Young People Services Committee and the Area Based Childhood Programme Managers Forum. Many of those organisations on the ground are not necessarily struggling with recruitment, so perhaps that is something we can look at next year. If there is an underspend in staff, there are grassroots organisations on the ground that are doing a lot of that early intervention work and we could consider resourcing them. I thank the Minister for her time this evening. Would she like to make any closing remarks.
Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the committee. I appreciate the enormous personal interest of everybody on this committee in this area. I thank the committee for its engagement and I am very happy to engage outside the committee on any specific issue that might be of interest to members. I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity to be here.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We thank the Minister and her officials for being here so late in the evening and dealing so comprehensively with the questions we asked of her. Deputy Ó Murchú and I will see her tomorrow in the Committee on Disability Matters.