Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 10 June 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport
Revised General Scheme of the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill: Discussion
2:00 am
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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We have received an apology from Deputy Micheál Carrigy. I ask all present to ensure their phones are on silent or switched off.
Today's meeting has been convened with officials from the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport, which is a new title. Where has arts gone? We are also joined by representatives from Coimisiún na Meán, RTÉ and Screen Ireland for the committee's first public engagement on the revised general scheme of the broadcasting (amendment) Bill.
I warmly welcome, from the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport, Mr. Adam Larragy, principal officer, and Ms Sarah Taaffe, assistant principal officer. From RTÉ, I welcome Mr. Steve Carson, director of video, who must know this place very well at this stage, it being his second time here in two weeks; Ms Eleanor Bleahane, solicitor and head of regulatory, and Mr. Dermot Horan, director of acquisitions and co-productions. From Coimisiún na Meán, we have Ms Aoife McEvilly, broadcasting and video-on-demand commissioner; Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill, media development commissioner, and Mr. Andrew Byrne, director of public service media. From Screen Ireland, we welcome Ms Libbie McQuillan, director of industry and corporate affairs, and Ms Louise Ryan, head of communications, marketing and public affairs. I thank the witnesses for attending.
The format for today's meeting is that I will invite the witnesses to deliver an opening statement, which will be limited to four minutes. This will be followed by questions from members. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee may publish the opening statements on its web page, and we will do that. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I wish to clarify some limitations with regard to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against defamation action for anything they say at this meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Chair to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
We will hear the opening statements in the following order: Mr. Adam Larragy on behalf of the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport; Ms Aoife McEvilly on behalf of Coimisiún na Meán; Mr. Steve Carson on behalf of RTÉ; and Ms Libbie McQuillan on behalf of Screen Ireland. We will then proceed to questions and answers with members. Members have six minutes' speaking time but, depending on how many members are present, we may be a bit more liberal.
Mr. Adam Larragy:
I wish the Chair and members of the committee a good afternoon. I thank the committee for its invitation to discuss the revised general scheme of the broadcasting (amendment) Bill today. I am a principal officer in the media and broadcasting division of the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport. I am joined by my colleague, Ms Sarah Taaffe, assistant principal officer.
On 8 October last year, the Government approved the publication and drafting of the general scheme of the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill. A revised general scheme was approved by the Government on 8 April this year. The purpose of the revised general scheme is to improve transparency, accountability and value for money in our public service media providers, RTÉ and TG4, and to introduce a new statutory framework to support the provision of public service content by the wider media sector. The revised general scheme incorporates all the provisions of the initial general scheme, while containing further measures to enhance transparency and accountability in RTÉ and TG4 and relating to the European works levy. The general scheme implements recommendations of the expert advisory committee on governance and culture in RTÉ chaired by Professor Niamh Brennan, the Future of Media Commission and those provisions of the European Media Freedom Act, EMFA, that relate to public service media providers.
The revised general scheme is organised into ten Parts. I will briefly summarise the main provisions. Parts 4 and 9 contain measures to improve the legislative underpinning for the corporate governance of RTÉ and TG4. As part of the proposed reforms, the Comptroller and Auditor General will be assigned as auditor of RTÉ; the functions and duties of the boards of RTÉ and TG4 will be strengthened and clarified, including in particular the role of board committees; the provisions regarding the functions, duties, accountability, appointment and dismissal of the directors general of RTÉ and TG4 will be amended to strengthen their accountability in their role as chief executive officer and their editorial independence; and the role of the audience councils of RTÉ and TG4 will be expanded and independence statutorily protected.
Part 5 of the general scheme provides for an enhanced framework for assessing the performance and funding of RTÉ and TG4. Under this framework, Coimisiún na Meán’s assessment of the adequacy of public funding of RTÉ and TG4 will move from the current five-year cycle to a three-year cycle. As part of the three-yearly assessment, RTÉ and TG4 will no longer set out their own performance commitments. Instead, Coimisiún na Meán will ultimately identify performance commitments and outputs through the three-yearly assessment. The regulator will also assess the level of expenditure necessary for RTÉ and TG4 to meet their commitments over the period and make a funding recommendation to the Government on that basis.
The existing annual review of performance and public funding will be strengthened with an increased focus on compliance with state aid provisions and will be submitted to the Minister by Coimisiún na Meán in two parts in June and October of each year. The strengthened annual reviews are intended to apply from 2026. To align with the current cycle of five-year reviews which cover the period 2022 to 2027, the new three-yearly assessment will apply commencing with the period 2028 to 2030. As a transitional measure, in 2026 and 2027, RTÉ and TG4 will submit their performance commitments for those years to Coimisiún na Meán for review prior to their finalisation.
Part 6 of the general scheme contains the new statutory framework for funding public service content. It provides for the conversion of the existing broadcasting fund to a platform-neutral media fund administrated by Coimisiún na Meán. The regulator will be conferred with the power to make media funding schemes to support the production, archiving and distribution of public service content to be made available to the public by public service content providers. Part 6 also provides for a review of public service content provision to be undertaken every three years by Coimisiún na Meán. The review will identify the current level of public service content provision in the State and identify any gaps.
Connected to Part 6, Part 2 of the general scheme defines public service content for the purposes of media funding schemes, including the proposed role of the committee in considering new categories of content for designation.
Part 10 of the general scheme contains a range of further transparency and accountability measures. It also provides that Coimisiún na Meán may only impose a European works levy following a direction of the Minister. I thank the committee for its time and I look forward to engaging with it.
Ms Aoife MacEvilly:
I thank the committee for the invitation to appear today. I am the broadcasting and on-demand commissioner. I am joined by fellow commissioner, Rónán Ó Domhnaill, media development commissioner, and my colleague, Andrew Byrne, director of public service media. Coimisiún na Meán’s overall vision is to ensure a thriving, diverse, creative, safe and trusted media landscape. We welcome the invitation to today’s meeting and the opportunity to discuss the future of public service media and public service content in Ireland.
We believe that public service media is a public good and the cornerstone of a vibrant audiovisual sector. Our recently launched strategy statement reflects our commitment to public service media and public service content, both of which play an essential role in a democratic society, informing public debate and discussion, ensuring all communities, particularly those more marginalised, are protected, informed and given a voice, while also encouraging and promoting innovation and experimentation. As Ireland’s media development agency, we work hard to foster a strong and sustainable public service media and this includes supporting and delivering on the recommendations of the Future of Media Commission report as well as the recommendations from the expert advisory committee, both of which we are pleased to see reflected in the general scheme.
Through the amendments to the broadcasting Acts, in addition to the introduction of the European Media Freedom Act, EMFA, in August 2025, we will continue to embrace our expanded remit, and we look forward to further developing our resources and capacity to develop a media landscape which benefits Irish audiences. Coimisiún na Meán also welcomes the constructive reforms to the existing legislation. We believe a sustainable, well-funded public service media is of critical importance to a well-functioning society and we appreciate the certainty provided for by the financial and strategic stability provisions in the general scheme, notably the multi-annual funding approach. Furthermore, such supports will help Ireland ensure compliance with certain aspects of EMFA, which also recommends adequate and sustainable funding for public service media, as well as multi-annual funding decisions to avoid risk of undue influence for yearly budget negotiations.
The general scheme envisages a more dynamic and integrated role for Coimisiún na Meán in setting commitments and designing a delivery framework for public service media organisations. We are committed to ensuring all our work is informed by a robust evidence base and welcome the introduction of a performance review and methodology framework. We look forward to working with the public service media organisations within a constructive, consultative process to identify the performance commitments and outputs and associated financial inputs, performance indicators and metrics. We also welcome that the scheme identifies, for the first time, the concept of public service content providers, which recognises the importance of commercial and community media across Ireland, and their crucial role in Ireland’s media landscape.
There are some areas of the scheme that may benefit from further consideration through the detailed drafting process. We also welcome the opportunity to engage further on the operationalisation of some aspects, including on how we will bring published content by public service media bodies within the same regulatory framework as that for broadcasting and on-demand services.
The application of regulatory content standards presents novel and complex issues. These warrant careful consideration. We welcome the establishment of the media fund on a legislative basis, including the proposed platform neutral structure of the fund, and the funding of new journalism schemes. Earlier this year, we announced that more than €5.7 million is being awarded in our first two journalism schemes, which will result in the creation of more than 100 new or enhanced journalism roles across the country. Our Sound and Vision scheme is also going from strength to strength and is celebrating 20 years in operation this year, funding programmes across television and radio. It is likely that these additional media development projects will increase both the number of applicants significantly across the schemes and the resulting demands on funding. An coimisiún suggests that the funding available for the media fund should be considered on a multi-annual basis with guaranteed funding, given the number and nature of funding schemes and other requirements such as the definition of public service content and the new list of underserved audiences.
We welcome the overall language and wording of the scheme. We are particularly pleased to be able to contribute to the committee’s discussion on this amendment and we look forward to continued engagement with committee members as the heads of the Bill are finalised.
Mr. Steve Carson:
I will read this at a lick. It is a fairly long statement with a long submission too. I thank the Cathaoirleach, Deputies and Senators for the invitation to attend. RTÉ welcomes the opportunity to participate in this discussion. The general scheme represents a further significant amendment of the Broadcasting Act following the enactment of the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act 2022. As a public service media provider, which continues to serve its audience in an increasingly changing and demanding media landscape, we hope many of these amendments will enable RTÉ to continue to do so. There are other elements of the Broadcasting Act which we would suggest are also in need of review, most notably the continuing historical link between ownership of a television set and payment of a licence fee. Given that audiences now access RTÉ content on a myriad of platforms, so too is the urgent need to provide greater legal and regulatory protection to ensure prominence.
In terms of the provisions of the general scheme we have offered a detailed submission which we hope will be of value to the committee in its considerations of this draft legislation and its implications post enactment. RTÉ endorses the overall objective of these legislative amends, which are intended to evolve the current regulatory framework to support the provision of public service content by the wider sector and to ensure that there are robust standards of transparency, reporting and performance review for the public funds involved. We welcome, in particular, the development of the role of the independent regulator, Coimisiún na Meán. Informed and rigorous regulation not only enhances focus on performance standards; it also offers due assurance to the public in terms of value for money and helps to develop sectoral standards. Therefore, while we have offered some suggested small amendments to the various provisions of this draft legislative amendment, we do so in the spirit of trying to make the objectives that it serves more achievable and aligned.
The committee will note that in our submission, we have provided detailed commentary against the various heads of Bill. We highlight the following issues as being most material for RTÉ in terms of their implementation. The first is commissioned spend transition timings. Within the overall context of timings, RTÉ has stated publicly, and reiterates the point in this submission, that we are committed to increasing our spend on commissioned content from the independent production sector to at least 25% of public funding. However, the timing of this is dependent and contingent upon the completion of our transformation programme. The implementation of an ambitious voluntary exit scheme is central to achieving that. Given the variability of permissions around future schemes, and staff application for same, as outlined at section 116A, a commitment of this nature could result in a dual liability of continued fixed costs and commissioned spend. We therefore suggest that the timelines ultimately reflected in the legislation allow sufficient latitude for the transition period ahead. This element of the general scheme aligns with recommendation 5.1 of the Future of Media Commission report. The timelines envisaged in that same analysis suggest a five-year period of transition. Given the complexity of the transition involved, we propose that is a more realistic timeframe to achieve this objective, to prevent a dual liability being an unintended consequence.
I turn to commissioned works and independent production unit, IPU, reporting. With regard to IPU reporting, RTÉ notes the expanded nature of the information which the scheme proposes. RTÉ is committed to transparency in terms of its own reporting. However, the scale of additional information which is sought in relation to commissioned projects creates onerous reporting commitments on the independent sector, and therefore presents feasibility considerations for RTÉ. In addition, we have made comments on the obligation of a 25% minimum investment. Given the larger scale budgets of drama and scripted comedy for example, this threshold potentially curtails RTÉ’s ability to invest with more companies. As stated in the new direction strategy, RTÉ has an ambition to increase its investment across drama in particular, but this minimum proportion of overall budget is potentially restrictive of RTÉ’s ability to commission across more companies. We refer to that on page 27 of the submission.
On the matter of future funding decisions, the timelines for the three-year strategy creation and submission process and related regulatory review are all explicit and are mapped out with the intention of creating funding certainty and corollary performance objectives. The general scheme at present does not set out any such timing for the Government response, which puts the viability of the contingent deliverables at risk. Separate from the issue of the timing of the Government response, we note that the ultimate decision on the funding of public service media nationally will continue to be made at a political level. RTÉ has previously advocated that the recommendations of the independent regulator should be binding, as is the case with other utilities. The European Broadcasting Union has articulated that public service media funding decisions should be informed by the principles of being stable and adequate, fair and justifiable, transparent and accountable and independent of political interference. While we acknowledge that many aspects of the general scheme amendments align with these principles, there is a high reliance on the political authorisation of funding for public service media within Ireland. Article 5(3) of the European Media Freedom Act obliges member states to provide adequate, sustainable, and predictable funding for public service media, ensure that such funding is allocated in a transparent and objective manner and guarantee editorial independence and prevent political or commercial interference.
While noting the transparency and robustness of the oversight and regulatory process as outlined in the general scheme, we observe that there is less explicit detail as to the decision making process at a political level.
Given the experience of other public service media organisations internationally, this creates a vulnerability within the overall framework that is a potential concern.
We strongly welcome the current three-year funding settlement that allows the organisation to plan ahead, implement organisational transformation, give more certainty to our partners in the independent sector and serves to enhance RTÉ's editorial independence.
RTÉ has made a number of other constructive comments and suggestions on the draft legislation. It is important that the legislative and regulatory architecture and principles which underpin public service media provision evolve to align with modern realities. This review is welcome and timely. We look forward to engaging with members on the deliberations that lie ahead.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank Mr. Carson very much. I now invite Ms to make her initial contribution.
Ms Libbie McQuillan:
I thank the Chair and members for inviting us here today. Screen Ireland is the national agency for the development of feature film, television drama, animation, documentary and digital games industries. It has a dual remit, namely develop the domestic sector supporting the expression of Irish culture on screen and responsibility for attracting international production to Ireland.
Screen Ireland is a creative partner to the sector, investing in talent, creativity and enterprise. In 2024, the creative screen industries generated a gross value added, GVA, to the Irish economy of €1 billion. We are inspired by original Irish storytelling that will connect with audiences at home and abroad.
Screen Ireland supports the sector at every stage through a wide range of practical funding supports across development, production, distribution, promotion and skills. Our vision for the industry is outlined in our five-year creative strategy, Fís Athnuaite – A Renewed Vision 2025 – 2029. A key priority of the new strategy is to support the development of Irish television. We invest in and support the development and production of scripted series, documentary drama, documentary series and animated series. We also support the television industry structurally through skills development and our broader range of sectoral schemes.
Screen Ireland has key partnerships on individual talent schemes with each of the Irish broadcasters. With TG4, we have helped stimulate and capitalise on a new era for Irish-language film and television. We also work closely with Coimisiún na Meán across many key areas of media development. We collaborate with international broadcasters and major global streaming platforms. Through these partnerships, and in a relatively short space of time, we have developed a significant slate of Irish TV drama and invested heavily in animation and documentary production. In this capacity, Screen Ireland welcomes the opportunity to meet with this committee on the revised general scheme of the broadcasting (amendment) Bill.
Screen Ireland fully supports strong, independent, appropriately resourced, public service media and content providers. The health and success of our public service media ecology is crucial to delivering positive societal, cultural and economic outcomes for our country. Screen Ireland welcomes the requirement to increase the level of RTÉ's independent funding account. This mechanism is comparable with ring-fenced independent quota obligations on public service media in other territories, which has proved successful.
Ireland has a particularly strong independent sector that is going from strength to strength. The increased requirement of the independent funding accounts should promote high-quality creative competition with suppliers so that the best ideas reach audiences domestically and internationally. Creating further opportunity for the independent sector will likely yield strong on-screen results and further increase the sustainability of Ireland's screen sector.
Screen Ireland is a creative agency working closely with all of the major US studios and streamers and many European media service providers. The underlying strength, quality and reputation of Irish creative talent, entrepreneurship and intellectual property has helped Ireland attract large-scale investment and ensured international exposure to Irish voices, culture and talent.
Screen Ireland funding, alongside the competitive fiscal incentives, have proved to be a critical driver for the growth and success of the screen industry to date. The ongoing development, production and circulation of European works, both film and television, is vital to European cultural diversity. European co-production is essential for the sustainability of many Irish independent production companies, with 76% of Irish television dramas between 2021 and 2024 co-produced with European and UK broadcasters. The continued partnership between Coimisiún na Meán and Screen Ireland is important in this regard for the strategic development of the audiovisual sector.
Screen Ireland plays a crucial role in fostering talent, facilitating collaboration, and promoting innovation helping drive economic growth, job creation, and cultural development in Ireland's thriving screen sector. Screen Ireland's priority is to continue building on the incredible commercial and critical success of the Irish screen industry and to drive an ambitious vision into the future. We look forward to answering any questions the members of the committee might have.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank Ms McQuillan very much. I appreciate that. Members will now ask some questions and engage with the witnesses. We will push this out to ten minutes as we have only four members at the moment. Deputy Brennan is the first person on my list.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I do not think I will need ten minutes. I am keen to hear from the representatives of Coimisiún na Meán about where they feel the role of local radio is going. I am from Gorey in County Wexford and I am involved in Arklow as well. East Coast FM and South East Radio are important for me personally. They are so ingrained in the fabric of our society. It is important that we have them. I see them being taken over by bigger bodies. The services are slowly changing. I am not picking on those two radio stations but, for example, at weekends now it is national news only. There is no local news. Local news is listened to in every nursing home and every house in Wexford and Wicklow. That has drifted and I am worried about losing that. I say that on behalf of business people and representatives but also on behalf of the whole community.
I welcome that 25% of public funding is going to be secured for the independent sector. I am keen to clarify that it is set in stone. RTÉ had a hard time on the last occasion we were here. Joe Public - all of us - want transparency, accountability, value for money and the use of Irish talent. They are the four simple things we need. I seek reassurances that RTÉ will tick those boxes and do that under this scheme. Oversight is extremely important. There is a review every three years. There has been much talk about this. I feel it should be shorter than that - perhaps an interim report could be produced in a year and a half. I would like to get a commitment on that to reassure people about what is happening in regard to the four commitments I outlined.
I have a question for Ms McQuillan from Screen Ireland. The vision for 2025 to 2029 is very interesting. What is the percentage of Irish-made films or screenplays, including as Gaeilge? I am very keen to learn that percentage. How many of the films or screenplays are produced in Ireland? Are we pushing for the employment of Irish actors? I was out last night at a local Fine Gael meeting and there was a young girl behind the counter who was a trainee actress. She had not got the work but one could see the talent and confidence was there. The actors are there. They are in every corner, including in that corner of Wicklow last night. I am interested in the responses to those points.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Who would like to take those questions?
Ms Aoife MacEvilly:
I thank Deputy Brennan very much. I will respond briefly on the 25% spend on the independent sector. We all agree this is a very important goal. It is very important that we do so in the right manner and in terms of timing. That is the area we are engaged on now as part of the development of the framework - when RTÉ will be in a position to do this, and to do it well, and to support the independent sector that we all know is so important. We are all agreed on that. Likewise on local radio: we fully agree with what was said about the importance of local commercial and community radio, which is increasing across the country.
We see good statistics around engagement, and they are looking for more local content and news, and more regional news. That is something that is starting to come through even in the early days of our review of the public service media framework. We are involved in a couple of pieces of work. We are going to be launching a broadcasting services strategy that will look at what types of services are needed or valued by audiences across the country, including for local and community radio. Through our licensing regime, we are ensuring that we are providing that kind of content for local communities.
We are developing a new plurality policy that will look at the areas the Deputy identified in terms of ownership of broadcasters, which is another matter that will come within our bailiwick under the European Media Freedom Act. There is also the matter of how we get the diversity of voices and the plurality of views represented on our broadcasters. It is not only about diversity of ownership; it is also about diversity of views and letting people around the country hear their voices and views reflected in the radio services.
Maybe another aspect of how we support local radio is the funding. I will hand over to Mr. Ó Domhnaill to deal with that.
Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill:
Funding is essential to the development of the independent commercial radio sector. We are very aware of that. We have a very good relationship with the IBI, which represents the industry. Various schemes are in operation with the commission to help support commercial radio and community radio. We have our Sound and Vision scheme, which provides funding for programming.
In the Deputy's area, South East Radio would have got roughly €50,000 over the past few years for programming. In addition, in the budget, a commercial radio fund of roughly €3 million was announced. We are working actively with the Department and the radio sector to get a scheme up and running by the end of the year end that the sector can avail of. We also have a digital transformation scheme coming on stream and a news reporting scheme. I hope that all of these together will help the industry.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Are there any other contributions? Is the Deputy happy?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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On local broadcasting, €50,000 will not go a long way. I keep reiterating how important it is to the local community down there. It is about the big guns coming in, and I feel they are going to dilute the product we have. Alan Corcoran and Liam Spratt are the two who cover the matches down there. They are household names. They are bigger in Wexford than any characters in RTÉ, with all due respect, because they are good. They get into people’s sitting rooms, and they know exactly the issues to talk about. They are pros, and that cannot be underestimated. They are a huge part of the social fabric. I am talking about Wexford, but what is happening there is replicated right across Ireland.
Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill:
Absolutely, and it is very important that those local voices are heard. The Sound and Vision scheme is just one aspect. The new schemes that are coming on stream - and that we hope will be on a statutory basis with the passing of this proposed legislation - should see increased funding for digital transformation for news reporting. That should, I hope, have a big impact.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Will the people at the coalface have a say in how that funding is distributed? They are the ones who know where it is needed.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It is extremely important and much appreciated.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I apologise for missing the start. I was in the Chamber. I might need to orient myself as to who is from which organisation a little as I go. I have questions for everybody.
I will start with the Department. I wish to specifically ask about the content production levy and the hypothetical of it being introduced. How would it support independent media in producing content, especially smaller producers of media? Could it be used to promote not only a larger but also more diverse production landscape?
What is the Department's response to the feasibility report from Coimisiún na Meán regarding a European works levy, especially the findings on the levy not diminishing our position as a destination for productions, minimising harm to public service media and the additional funding it could raise for European works? That is in the context of the proposed amendment to section 159 of the Act contained in the general scheme. The amendment provides the framework for the introduction of such a levy. Given the proposals in the general scheme that provide for ministerial discretion on whether the levy should be introduced, does the Department have any plans for scoping exercises beyond what has been done by Coimisiún na Meán on the impact funds generated by a content production levy would have on domestic media production? If it is okay, I will go with the Department first and then move to the representatives from RTÉ.
Mr. Adam Larragy:
On the content production levy, the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act 2022 introduced the legislative framework for the content production levy and left many of the details as to how it would be imposed and, in particular, the kind of content schemes that would be made on foot of the levy to Coimisiún na Meán and Screen Ireland. Either body can develop schemes to support content. There is a list of the type of audiovisual content that could be supported and categories therein, but a lot of the detail of how the schemes would be made and operated-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Happen elsewhere.
Mr. Adam Larragy:
Yes. They are set out in the legislation for Coimisiún na Meán and Screen Ireland. The reasoning was to keep it as independent from Government as possible. However, there is scope within the primary legislation to address some of the issues the Deputy raised about, say, what is an independent producer for the purposes of the scheme in terms of identifying the types of people who could be supported as well as the types of content that could be supported. Schemes could target different types of content. The detail is left to either Screen Ireland or Coimisiún na Meán as the case may be. The way it works is they would submit a scheme for the Minister's approval, but they would be the designers of the scheme. That is the legislative framework as it exists for content production.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Does the Department have plans for further scoping exercises in that area?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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The mechanism, yes. If Coimisiún na Meán and Screen Ireland have any additional response to that question they can give them when I get to them. I will go to RTÉ next, if Mr. Larragy does not have anything else on that.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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On the requirement for RTÉ to use at least 25% of its funding on independent commissions, what is its vision for the ideal balance in RTÉ between commissioning and in-house production or does it have such a balance in mind?
Mr. Steve Carson:
The first thing to say is we welcome the three-year public funding settlement, which has enabled us to plan our transformation and give more clarity to our independent producers about our future plans. As a result of that three-year funding settlement, we are already entering into multi-annual deals on some titles and multiseries commissions. RTÉ's position is we are fully committed to the 25% of funding being spent in the independent sector and would regard-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Is that where RTÉ sees it kind of-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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A floor to build from. RTÉ's submission on the proposed Bill highlights concerns with the proposed new section 87(3)(b) on board members of RTÉ "represent[ing] the interests of the people of the island of Ireland and of Irish communities outside the island of Ireland". RTÉ also stated that the proposed new section provides for a higher standard for directors than is provided for in company law and suggests that the board should have regard to representing these interests. I come to this with a little experience. I am the former Chief Commissioner of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, which has very similar wording in its founding legislation that became very helpful to it. Can RTÉ outline why imposing that higher standard on the board in this regard is an issue for it?
Ms Eleanor Bleahene:
As our submission outlines, the elevation of that obligation to a fiduciary duty, which, as the Deputy knows, is a legal obligation, given that it is drafted in the context of a duty on the members of the board to represent the interests of Irish people within the island of Ireland and those outside the Ireland and the fact that will change, which is absolutely recognised in the scheme, that it is a rather large, wide and diverse group to owe a legal duty to. Notwithstanding that, the amendment we have proposed is that it should be incorporated into one of the key functions of the board, which is to ensure the effective and efficient discharge of the public service objects by RTÉ with regard for the interests of those living on the island of Ireland and outside the island.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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As a national broadcaster, does RTÉ not see that as exactly the kind of level of ambition that we should be reaching towards?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I would have thought that it weakens it to remove it from the legislation and place it elsewhere.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Fiduciary duties are one element of the directors' role, but there are other elements that come with it. This is where it would satisfy that representative-----
Ms Eleanor Bleahene:
Absolutely. There are other elements. There are key functions that are clearly articulated in the scheme. Our concern with having that obligation as a legal obligation encompassed as a fiduciary obligation is that fiduciary obligations are owed to RTÉ itself by the members of the board and rearticulating them in the context of a legal obligation to reflect the interests of the wider public - and it would be the wider public because the Future of Media Commission report contextualises the term "public"-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I am afraid I am going to wrap up that answer there. I apologise for talking over Ms Bleahene but I have other questions for other witnesses. I urge RTÉ to consider this because it was helpful as a tool to IHREC as a State agency. It ensures RTÉ cannot let itself move away from the equality, diversity and inclusion, EDI, obligations that all State agencies and institutions should have in representing everybody within the country. That is the reason I see it as a positive aspect of the legislation.
I will move to Coimisiún na Meán. I welcome the expanded role of the coimisiún in regulating and supporting our media landscape and the provisions in this Bill for levies to support its work. Are there issues or limitations regarding the resourcing of Coimisiún na Meán or are the proposed provisions sufficient to support its expanded role under the Bill?
Ms Aoife MacEvilly:
We recently had good news from the Minister of an expanded sanction for staffing. We will be expanding our organisation. We currently have just over 200 staff and that will go to just over 300 staff. This may seem like a lot but we have a huge agenda ahead of us. We are happy with the support we are getting on that front. The ability to levy the sectors enables us to have financial independence as well. That is also supportive of our role.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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On independence, does Ms MacEvilly feel the mandate in the legislation gives Coimisiún na Meán adequate independence to carry out its functions? I appreciate that various State agencies have varying levels of independence. I referenced my experience in IHREC as a separate Accounting Officer with independent officers of the State. It was kind of the best in class. Does Ms MacEvilly feel Coimisiún na Meán has adequate independence?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Would it be beneficial for this legislation to outline the unique position of TG4 as an Irish language public broadcaster and its function and impact on wider Irish language policy? I am asking that in the context of Coimisiún na Meán's role to set and monitor performance of both TG4 and RTÉ. Would that be helpful?
Ms Aoife MacEvilly:
If there was the opportunity to look at TG4's objectives, that would possibly be helpful because it has such a broad remit in terms of both serving audiences and enhancing Irish language education or support around the nation. That clarity could be helpful. In the absence of that, we can also work through the new framework to establish that kind of clarity ourselves.
Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill:
We are conducting a comprehensive review, as dictated in the Future of Media Commission report, on the provision of Irish language media in Ireland. That should come to a conclusion towards the end of the year. I imagine it will have recommendations and advice about TG4 and the role it plays in society.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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It is important to distinguish because TG4 is not just a media provider like other channels. I apologise for going over time. I have a few more questions but I am happy to ask them on the second rotation.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Tá brón orm as a bheith mall. Bhí mé istigh sa Dáil. I apologise if any of these questions have been asked. I was not following proceedings as I was in the Dáil. My questions relate to the buy-out contracts. Do we need to amend the Bill to ensure it prohibits buy-out contracts for performers and writers? Can we ensure there is full compliance with copyright laws and EU directives? Recently, when I asked RTÉ at a committee whether it could assure us that this practice was not happening I did not get an answer. Will RTÉ indicate whether it has contacted any performers to demand that they amend their contracts or sign away their rights to future residuals before paying them what they are already owed for repeat broadcasts? We want to ensure into the future that those types of practices do not happen. I will let the witnesses answer those questions before I go on to other questions.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I can produce people here who have been recently asked by RTÉ to sign away their residuals. That is for another thing, whereas this is for the future. Is Mr. Carson happy to ensure that copyright law and people's rights to payment for their acting and for producing services would be fully protected?
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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There is a habit whereby if someone does not sign away their rights they do not get any work in the future. It is not just RTÉ. I am not picking on RTÉ, but these issues have been raised with me lately.
On Coimisiún na Meán, the Minister has produced in this draft legislation the power to curtail the European works levy. Does an coimisiún have a view on what the Minister has proposed in this instance? Has it considered a need for this levy in the field of sound streaming to provide funding for the development of music and radio, similar to the European works levy? The Minister made great play of this, yet it has not been discussed other than by the Minister. He said he wanted the power to introduce the levy rather than an coimisiún.
Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill:
On foot of a recommendation in the Future and Media Commission report, Coimisiún na Meán, with great co-operation from Fís Éireann, conducted a visibility study on the introduction of a European works levy, as permitted. It was to look at efficiency and feasibility and whether such a levy could or should be introduced. As this was being done, what we were focused on was the overall production sector in Ireland and the overall amount of content that is available for consumers. There are various strands to that, such as section 481 tax relief, independent production and the feasibility study on the content levy. That was presented to the Minister at the end of January. In the legislation before the committee, the provision is recommended that a levy order should be approved by the Minister and that he would direct Coimisiún na Meán to devise a scheme. How a levy would work, what it would produce and who would be levied are questions that would only be clarified through a scheme being devised. It is ultimately at the discretion of the Minister to request that this be done.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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If this legislation is enacted in the way the Minister expects, the scheme will not be devised unless the Minister issues a directive to Coimisiún na Meán.
Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill:
A scheme would always need to be confirmed by the Minister in any event. The new provision is a belt-and-braces approach in that the levy to implement the scheme requires ministerial approval under the new Bill. From our point of view, we examine the overall industry and supports available, and also what is available for Irish audiences.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do not want to put Mr. Ó Domhnaill in a predicament. When it was presented, the Minister was opposed to the levy. Therefore, he would be taking away the power Coimisiún na Meán has at present to commission work or prepare for a scheme of the kind in question.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Usually with a feasibility study, people are asked to change this, that and the other rather than totally scrap it and say one is going to have the power in the future. Go raibh maith agat as sin.
On Comptroller and Auditor General oversight, the Minister, Deputy O’Donovan, has told the Dáil he could not accept my Bill on the Comptroller and Auditor General coming under the PAC because RTÉ needed the power to commission audits privately on top of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s. Did RTÉ seek the additional power whose effect would be to delay Comptroller and Auditor General oversight, or did the Minister seek it? If my Bill, which was very simple, had been passed, RTÉ would have been under the Comptroller and Auditor General before the end of the year. I cannot understand the logic – maybe there is some logic that I am missing – behind RTÉ needing to commission additional private audits if the Comptroller and Auditor General is in charge.
Ms Eleanor Bleahene:
I think it is an additional assurance. In overall terms, in the context of transparency and oversight, it has a strengthening effect. It also assists the Comptroller and Auditor General. The more accountability through statutory auditing and the Comptroller and Auditor General’s remit, the better from a public service media provider perspective.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do not know. It suggests RTÉ does not trust the Comptroller and Auditor General if it has to get a second opinion.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I just cannot see why you would audit something already audited or why anybody would go down that route. I do not believe anybody has ever questioned the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s ability to carry out its work. Since there is the next step, the PAC, which oversees the Comptroller and Auditor General-----
Mr. Adam Larragy:
From the Department’s policy perspective, one reason for retaining the power of the RTÉ board to appoint a private auditor is that some of RTÉ’s subsidiaries are already audited and will continue to have to be audited by a private sector auditor under the Companies Act. One is 2RN, which operates the transmission system. Such bodies are established as companies under the Companies Act. There is precedent for the dual audit of commercial semi-State organisations. Uisce Éireann had the Comptroller and Auditor General assigned to it. I believe the relevant legislation was in 2003, but Uisce Éireann retained, because of its commercial semi-State nature, a dual audit.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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A dual audit of certain parts rather than the whole lot, which seems to suggest RTÉ will have a private audit of itself, followed by the Comptroller and Auditor General doing the exact same thing, meaning a delay in the provision of accounts for scrutiny. It seems very odd although I understand the point Mr. Larragy made on Uisce Éireann. There are other semi-State companies in this category but it has not caused a difficulty. If there is a full audit and then a full audit again every single year, it seems odd, with the exception of where an issue has arisen.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is not the whole of RTÉ that has to be done, but-----
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is only partial.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am not denying that but what seems to be suggested is that a full private audit of RTÉ would be followed up by one by the Comptroller and Auditor General.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I apologise for my late arrival. I was at another meeting.
Perhaps my questions have been put already. My first is for RTÉ. What is the projected expenditure on the independent production sector in 2025? Is it expected that the target of €70 million will be met in 2027?
Mr. Steve Carson:
Obviously, we have not completed the accounts for this year because we are still mid-year. The nature of production is such that pieces can be moved for scheduling reasons or because they do not deliver, so the overall expenditure cannot be calculated within the year. We are expecting an increase on the expenditure of last year, which in the IP statutory account was about €47 million. We are considering increasing that. We are currently tracking at about €48.1 million but the tracking figure will not be the final one at the end of the year.
The new direction strategy, published last year, was ahead of the funding settlements. We talked then about the ambition of spending more than €70 million by 2026. Since the strategy was published, we had the funding settlement. We welcome it. It enables us to plan transformation and plan more with the sector, but there is a shortfall in the exact amount offered. We are currently working through the budgets for next year but we are not going to hit €70 million next year. Our overall plan, subject to the transformation process, is increasing independent production expenditure significantly year on year over the next several years to get to the 25% target.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I thank Mr. Carson.
My next question is for the Department. What processes need to be followed in order for the audiovisual media services directive, AVMSD, content levy to be introduced once the Bill is passed?
Mr. Adam Larragy:
As set out in the Bill, the Minister will have the power to direct Coimisiún na Meán to make the levy following consultation with the Minister for Finance, the relevant money Minister. There is provision for an assessment to be conducted every three years by Coimisiún na Meán and submitted to the Minister. If the Bill were to pass and nothing were done, and no direction were issued, there would still be, after three years, the submission of another feasibility study to the Minister setting out the potential effects of any levy. It means it is, by statute, under review.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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Will there be scope to increase the 25% allocation of public funds to the independent production sector year on year?
Mr. Adam Larragy:
The general scheme sets out that, as part of Coimisiún na Meán’s three-year appraisal of the funding of RTÉ, it can suggest a higher figure than the minimum of 25%. If the Minister agrees with that, Coimisiún na Meán can make an order increasing the minimum amount from 25%. RTÉ, on its own, could increase it anyway, but the statutory minimum can change through Coimisiún na Meán making the relevant order with the consent of the Minister.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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My final question concerns Screen Ireland. Is Screen Ireland comfortable with the provisions of the revisions of section 116, which refer to funding decisions? Does Screen Ireland have a comment to make on the obligation to report commercially sensitive and IP and rights deals as part of IP reporting?
Ms Libbie McQuillan:
Screen Ireland publishes its funding decisions on a quarterly basis. We appreciate the composite picture of the requirements of section 116, which imposes requirements on RTÉ regarding funding and detailed protocols and rights for independents.
We welcome transparency overall. We recognise that sometimes there may be questions about commercial sensitivity but we believe a balance can be struck between providing overall transparency, of which we are in favour, and dealing with commercially sensitive issues should they emerge.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the witnesses for coming in this evening. I am glad some more colleagues have joined. I was feeling a little outnumbered at the start but we have certainly balanced it out. One of the joys of being slightly further down the list is that I become ever-more inventive with my questions because many have been touched upon. I will probably dig a little bit deeper, as Deputy Brennan did, into the regional side of things.
My first questions are for Screen Ireland. What percentage of Screen Ireland's budget goes to international versus domestic production? Is there any breakdown of how its funding is used on the administrative side as opposed to the programming side?
Ms Libbie McQuillan:
I thank the Senator for the question. We can come back to the committee with exact details. The vast majority goes on domestic production. Only a very small portion of our budget is focused on international production. Screen Ireland has a dual remit. It is responsible for the promotion of Irish culture on screen and for international investment as well. The vast majority of our funding is on domestic projects. This partly answers the question Deputy Brennan asked. Last year, production spend in Ireland was €430 million, an increase of 33% on the previous year. That is a mix of domestic and inward production. There is a difference between volume and value. We have a high number of domestic productions and the value of inward productions can sometimes be higher. Ms Ryan may have something to add to that.
Ms Louise Ryan:
I wish to return to the point about investing in local talent and local projects. As Ms McQuillan said, a huge part of what Screen Ireland does is investing in local film TV animation. We are also building careers and investing in film makers. That goes back to Deputy Brennan's question about the talent we are supporting. We have a number of shadowing schemes. One of the interesting things for today's meeting is seeing how film makers may start their careers with short films and they may go on to working on feature films, but they need that mix of film and television. For example, Kate Dolan is an amazing film maker who started with "You Are Not My Mother". She has also been working projects like "Kin" which was cofunded by Screen Ireland and RTÉ - there was a huge RTÉ investment. That has really built her career and she is now working with Blumhouse and has her own feature film coming next. That is a wonderful example.
There is a lot of acting talent. Éanna Hardwicke had a small role in "Normal People", but people may not have noticed him because Paul Mescal was shining bright. Ultimately, we will now see him in two feature films coming this year that we are pitching out to the market and he will have a lead in "Saipan". He was also a star in the international film "Twain" last year. Therefore, careers meander through and they need all elements of the system.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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How can Screen Ireland ensure equal regional distribution across the country and gender diversity as well as looking into independent producers?
Ms Louise Ryan:
With regard to regional, certainly when it comes to TV drama, we have funded projects right across the country. Some 51% of the TV drama projects funded by Screen Ireland were filmed entirely in regional areas outside of Dublin and Wicklow. That is a huge part. Especially through our schemes we also have a lot of gender specifics. We are highly focused on 50:50 by 2020 and that remains a key priority for Screen Ireland. Ms McQuillan may have more to say on that.
Ms Libbie McQuillan:
Regional development is a key element of our strategy. We have a nationwide production fund for shooting outside Dublin and Wicklow. We recognise that is part of the picture. Last year when the industry got together to have a workshop on section 481, there was a universal response from the industry that regional development was incredibly important. There continues to be a policy question on the potential of regional uplift of bringing that back to-----
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I am glad to hear that. I am conscious of time. I will put a similar question to Coimisiún na Meán. How does it intend to protect and promote local and community broadcasting?
Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill:
We have a variety of methods through our various funding schemes. Almost by definition regional areas are covered through our funding. Sound and Vision funding schemes tend to fund programmes that might not get made without this funding. Some examples would be "Beo ón gCuan", a series of concerts recorded at Stiúideo Cuan in An Spidéal, and "Anam na Mara" a programme for TG4 about currach racing. These are all programmes that are made and filmed in regional areas of Ireland. Some 25% of the funding is allocated for Irish language programming, much of which takes place in various regions in the Gaeltacht.
On our journalism schemes for news and current affairs, local democracy reporting and court reporting, which I am sure the Senator is very aware of, €5.7 million is being allocated to various newspapers across the country to ensure local news coverage in the industry. That will increase through other schemes towards the end of the year.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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That may bring the Department in. How can we protect those jobs? There has been tremendous work. Sadly, I missed the boat on it but there has been tremendous work done on local democracy. How can we protect the actual assets, the publications they are working with?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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My next question is for RTÉ. What is its position on the proposed changes to the licence fee and the funding model under the broadcasting Bill?
Mr. Steve Carson:
We are absolutely committed to the 25% spend. That is our position and we would like to go further. The creative work already done with independent producers underpins our services and schedules. It is a very important part of our role. We see ourselves as a catalyst and enabler for that wider sector. The co-operation with the independent sector goes back to the original 1993 Act. As the Senator may know, I run an independent company. It is a very important part of what we do across the genre.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I may get a chance to touch on it later but I will introduce it now. We have not really discussed harmful content online. What internal policies does RTÉ have to monitor harmful content on its digital platforms?
Mr. Steve Carson:
We offer a range of content across services. Anything that we publish goes through our editorial process, subject to review by the sub-editorial chain of command. That is the caution we have. We are cautious even when publishing on social media. For example, there are instances where we turn off comments in case of offensive or abusive comments.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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However, RTÉ will have new obligations on content moderation, particularly on its social media and streaming platforms. Is it across them? Does it have internal policies for them?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I do not have time for any more questions.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I will start with the Department. The original Bill states that the broadcasting fund will be reconstituted into a platform-neutral media fund. We have seen benefits of multi-annual funding in other sectors. Ms Ryan spoke about building careers and how important it is to have access to multi-annual funding for the people working in the sector. Is the Department receptive to that in respect of the new media fund?
Mr. Adam Larragy:
The funding will ultimately be a political decision. There is, however, provision for three-yearly reviews of public service content, which will be undertaken by Coimisiún na Meán. It will see if there are any gaps in the current provision of public service content in the country and then recommend potential schemes to close the gaps. They will be undertaken every three years. Any decision on multi-annual funding for the media fund will be a political decision but there will at least be a set of recommendations coming from Coimisiún na Meán on where the gaps are for every three years. It allows a little bit of looking forward to what future schemes could be in every three-year period.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Is there anymore of a breakdown on the design of the fund? RTÉ and TG4 will be excluded from applying for those funds. What will it look like for other companies?
Mr. Adam Larragy:
It will depend on the schemes, which are made by Coimisiún na Meán out of it. On the design of the fund, 7% of net licence fee receipts will continue to be paid into the media fund, and it will be topped up with Exchequer resources. This year, the licence fee allocation to the current broadcasting fund will probably be €14 million, and the Government has put in €16 million of Exchequer funding to media funding schemes, so the overall pot is €30 million. Going forward, it could increase. Regarding the money out, it will depend on the media funding schemes made by Coimisiún na Meán. Subject to Coimisiún na Meán's views, Sound and Vision, which has been very successful, will continue to be part of it.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Ó Domhnaill want to come in on that or in respect of the fund itself?
Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill:
They are very much in their infancy. The first schemes are beginning now – local democracy and court reporting. We will have a review of those schemes next year and, as the Department officials mentioned, the review of public service content and the gaps there. Between the Sound and Vision scheme, there are six schemes recommended in the Future of Media Commission report - democracy, court, training and access, digital transformation and so on. On top of that, the Department allocated €6 million for commercial radio and commercial television as well. There is enough there to be getting on with at the moment. When the media fund is established on a platform-neutral basis and we could be looking at podcasting and so on, I expect the demand for funding will increase. The more we can match the demand, the healthier.
Mr. Dermot Horan:
Regarding the media fund, RTÉ has no objection at all to independent production companies being the only ones that can apply for the fund. However, separately, an archive fund has been part of the previous fund. RTÉ, and indeed other broadcasters, have availed of that fund. There is a difference between being an independent, single production and being an archive. For example, we found a whole load of very limited edition CDs in Raidió na Gaeltachta. They are an amazing collection of Irish music. RTÉ does not own that - it is owned by the artists - but they were in peril and limited edition. We are digitising those as part of an Irish-language collection because RTÉ as the broadcaster is, in many ways, the custodian and curator of archives, whether we own the material or whether it is owned by an independent producer. In addition, in respect of every commission that RTÉ commissions, even though the commission or programme itself is owned by the independent producer, independent producers come and go and they could lose that material, so we look after and keep an archive of everything. We are making the observation that we fully support independent producers applying for Sound and Vision, or whatever Sound and Vision 2 becomes in terms of the media fund, but there is an amazing archive that RTÉ is currently in the process of digitising. We are digitising 200,000 video tapes from the eighties and nineties. We have digitised film and the news from the sixties and seventies. We are making this available to the general public. Let us not forget the archive because it is a national treasure.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Ó Domhnaill mentioned podcasts. Newer formats like podcasts will come under the same regulatory framework as traditional ones when the Bill comes through. How is content like that currently regulated? What impact will the reform have?
Mr. Steve Carson:
Every piece of content either directly made by RTÉ – we have very talented in-house production teams working across the genres – or commissioned by RTÉ has to be compliant with RTÉ’s editorial standards and with all applicable legislation. We currently commission some podcasts and make some podcasts in-house. They are run through the same editorial processes and they are run by the same editorial line management teams.
Expanding podcasting and responding to our audiences is part of our strategy. We make an observation that technology is blurring some of these distinctions. The difference between audio and audiovisual is blurring because podcasts can be visualised. We are doing that with a big commission later on in the year called “The Traitors”. The press office is going to kill me. We have a visualised podcast around that, which has a bit of TV content, player content and audio content.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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No worries. Nobody is watching this. Mr. Carson is fine.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Based on the opening statement, the increase in independent commissioning sounds like a timing issue and a timing difficulty. Can Mr. Carson explain that a little bit more? Is it entirely related to the voluntary exit package or is it more complex than that?
Mr. Steve Carson:
The commitment is there, and I hope we have been clear on that. We want to move into increasing independent spend as quickly as we can. However, we are currently in transition. We are going through a voluntary exit programme, which has been approved for this year. We do not have clarity and that is a decision to be made on future years. We need to make sure we are in a position to reduce our fixed costs, which includes head count, to be able to make sure that the spend we receive can then be put to the sector. We are increasing the spend on the sector and that 25% commitment is there.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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The European Commission recently approved a new tax incentive for unscripted programming - section 487. Can Mr. Carson outline RTÉ's plans to approach this? How will RTÉ approach a new incentive to its budgets for commissioning?
Mr. Steve Carson:
The approval has just been given. We will begin discussions with the independent production community. There is a cultural test, which I do not currently have sight of, but we will see how that works. It could be a very strong support for the growth in creative audiovisual production, which Screen Ireland talked about, just as section 481 has been transformative for Irish scripted dramas. We have seen very strong creative and financial improvements there.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Has the Department ever audited section 481 claims for compliance with pay parity or contract transparency?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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That is fine. Without routine compliance checks, there would be no deterrent against the use of public funds without fair contracts.
I have a question for Screen Ireland. What is the importance of sections 481 and 487 to the sector and the importance of those tax rebates?
Ms Libbie McQuillan:
Section 481 is a crucial cornerstone of funding of our industry. It is available to inward production but, crucially, it is also available to domestic production. The most recent number of production value in Ireland in the year just gone was approximately €430 million, and section 481 had a large role to play in that.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Could Screen Ireland provide a little bit of perspective on the streaming levy? What impacts would a levy like that have on investment in the audiovisual sector in Ireland?
Ms Libbie McQuillan:
The AVMSD, which is a broader European legislative text, allows for the potential of financial obligations.
Also, more broadly, it encourages the prominence of European work and quotas for it, European work being film, television and animation. The levy is one potential mechanism within that. A high number of productions operate on a European basis. The levy mechanism is subject to review going forward. In the legislation, there was a ring fence for Irish language and independent work and, in due course, it will be reviewed.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have a few questions and then we will have a second round of approximately four minutes.
My question is for Screen Ireland and RTÉ, because they can be more open in a certain format. They are not the regulatory authority or the Department, in other words. They will get one chance perhaps to say this and I will get one chance to ask it. What do they see as the main weakness of this legislation that they would like the Oireachtas, through this process, to concentrate on and change? They should forever hold their breath if they do not say it now. Will RTÉ answer first?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Okay, very diplomatic. I fundamentally disagree with the ministerial decision on the levy order. I have said so publicly. Most people who cannot really offer an opinion agree with me. It takes away the independence of Coimisiún na Meán and it is not in the spirit of what was initially sought. It was a retrograde step.
Deputy Ó Snodaigh did a bit of toing and froing with the witnesses on the levy order. I was intrigued by the use of language, that the Minister would "direct" and the order would then be designed and ministerial approval would be required again. I think it was Mr. Ó Domhnaill who said it was a belt and braces approach. I wrote that down. Before the changes that were made recently with the ministerial requirement, was the previous approach not belt and braces?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Basically, the Minister has to ask Coimisiún na Meán to do something and then he or she will then have to approve it when an coimisiún sends it in.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Basically, there are two layers for the same thing. The Minister will have to kick it off as well as finalise it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I suppose if one was a belt approach, this is a belt and braces approach. I am not sure we needed the braces. There is a weakness here in the sense that it goes against the spirit of this legislation, which all of us in the Oireachtas broadly agree with. It gives an unnecessary power to a Minister over an independent regulator. That is not the case in most other scenarios in Ireland or in most other jurisdictions. I know Mr. Ó Domhnaill cannot comment, but I think it is unfortunate.
Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill:
The idea behind the feasibility study by the Future of Media Commission, was that it was always intended to be an initial first step, but it would be up to the Minister, the Department and Government to make a policy decision after that. That is where we are at the moment. The three-year review in the legislation could be helpful.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is too long. I said that at the meeting with our colleagues Ms Taaffe and Mr. Larragy. Three years is too long. This whole area of media is moving so quickly, but I suppose the review is helpful.
I will ask a specific question about local radio and local newspapers. All of us in politics who are from a rural background live and die by them. There are various schemes. The current scheme is being used for news reports. What is the measurement of its effectiveness? What other schemes and timelines for other schemes are there in the future?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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What is the timeline for them?
Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill:
Already in the next few weeks we are hoping to see them start appearing in local newspapers. We will review them to see how they are working and operating and the effectiveness of them after a year of their being in operation. On top of that, there are other schemes similar to these two schemes, a digital transformation scheme and a general news reporting scheme. A sum of €4 million has been set aside for them. They will also be-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The question I asked is what the timeline is.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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That is the timeline. Is Coimisiún na Meán confident it will meet all these dates and timelines that have been stated previously, that is, by year end?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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On the schemes' effectiveness, what key performance indicators, KPIs, does an coimisiún have in place? Mr. Ó Domhnaill said they would be reviewed after a year. Presumably, that will be a year from when each one is launched.
Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill:
Individual newspapers and companies will have made applications in which they will have said they would cover this or that sitting and this number of local authority meetings. We will look at that, evaluate it and measure it to see whether what was agreed in the submission and contract is being done.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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An coimisiún has measurement techniques in place for all this.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Does it have enough resources? Is it happy? Now is the time to ask for more.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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We will go around again, starting with Deputy Brennan.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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My question is for Coimisiún na Meán. Online safety is often overlooked, not by Coimisiún na Meán but by a lot of people. It is now so relevant to society, I would be interested in Mr. Ó Domhnaill's comments on how it could be beefed up. In the current climate we all get plenty of online comments. I will put it that way.
To RTÉ, are subsidiary companies a natural progression? I will throw out all my questions. I do not want to get into nitty-gritty but, on content, in RTÉ's coverage on Saturday night, the production team and commentators on the Player were fantastic but it is missing a trick with the League of Ireland. That is just a comment.
RTÉ put a lot of effort into highlighting the skorts issue but we have rarely seen a camogie player since.
That is my personal comment because again, these people are wholly ingrained in the social fabric and are the heroes of our town. They keep the kids off the corner and we need to promote these camogie players.
Regarding head counts and how the process is going, this was brought up before in the context of redundancy packages. If you google the number of jobs going, it seems they are going out one door and coming in the other. The general opinion of the people I have spoken to within the industry is there are too many chiefs and not enough Indians. The witnesses are not the only body this is coming across in but I am just saying what I hear from people within the organisation.
I am fascinated by how the film industry is developing in County Wicklow, how America is so attracted to produce here and how we can get on the back of that. I am interested in how this could help further Screen Ireland's funding and how it could help us as a country. It is a growing industry and I would like to hear the witnesses' view on it. It is not all about us. I wish to hear their comments on it as well.
Ms Aoife MacEvilly:
I thank the Deputy for raising this important question. It is clear this is very much at the heart of everything we do at Coimisiún na Meán across the board, in our media landscape and our online functions. Online safety is a critical area and we are committed to developing a media landscape which supports safety, particularly for children and public safety. There is currently much work going on in our organisation on this. One of the key areas I will briefly outline is the development of our online safety framework. A core element of this is the online safety code which was decided at the end of last year. A key element of that will come into effect next month. We are also engaging with platforms. Our supervision team is working with them to understand how they are enhancing safety, particularly for minors, through the implementation of this online safety code.
Under the Digital Services Act, we are also engaging with the EU Commission which has a role here. We are supporting much of the work it is doing regarding enforcement but also developing more specific guidelines for protection of minors which is, again, a critical area currently under consideration. We are working on our media literacy front to educate parents, children and users of online services of the critical skills needed to safely navigate that environment and we will launch some of our campaigns starting next month. There is a huge effort here and we are hoping to come into the Houses of the Oireachtas to give a presentation at some point on this because we welcome the support of the political system. This is a whole-of-society response in that regard.
Ms Eleanor Bleahene:
I am happy to answer that question. RTÉ is a dual-funded public service media provider. As the Deputy will know, it derives its funding both from public funding licence fees and commercial opportunities. Pursuant to its statutory remit, it is entitled and obliged to exploit commercial opportunities as they arise in pursuit of our public service objects. To enable the organisation to do so, it has a wholly owned commercial subsidiary, CEL, which enables it to do that as a dual-funded broadcaster. The company 2RN is also a specifically wholly owned subsidiary and is subject to sector-specific regulation by ComReg to ensure a necessary arms-length relationship and transparency. If it is at all clear, that-----
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I understand that.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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How much funding goes to 2RN?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The witness might come back to us in writing.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I have a couple more questions for Coimisiún na Meán and some remaining questions for Screen Ireland.
In its submission on the Bill, Coimisiún na Meán cited the addition of new definitions to the editorial decision and media service provider could have wider implications for the legislative framework. Could the witnesses expand on this?
Ms Aoife MacEvilly:
It is a point which would probably have come up naturally during the detailed drafting. The editorial decision definition is given in respect of public service broadcasters but also probably applies more widely to other public service media or content providers and media service providers. It is looking across some of the other areas, as well as the definition of media service providers. It is a complex legislative framework we operate under and this is just fact testing to ensure the definition does not require amendments to other areas of the legislation as well as ensuring there are no other unintended implications.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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In its submission on head 27, Coimisiún na Meán stated it noted the application of regulatory content standards to podcasts and published online content that could have embedded audio or audiovisual content which presents novel and complex issues that warrant careful consideration. Could Ms MacEvilly briefly outline some of those issues?
Ms Aoife MacEvilly:
In simple terms, instead of looking at broadcasting and video on demand, we will also look at the RTÉ website content. Taking the news website, for instance, there is a mix of areas there. You cannot just cut and paste the same codes across from broadcasting. We will have to look at what the standards are there. For example, content may change over the course of the day. If somebody takes a look at content at 9 a.m. and complains about what they see there, the version we look at might be completely different by the end of the day. It is simple logistical things we must consider how we manage them and what are the appropriate codes.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I thank Ms MacEvilly for her contribution.
I have a few questions for Screen Ireland. It does fantastic work in supporting our domestic industry and it is great to hear the stories told here today in this session. It is media we are very proud of. The organisation does a great job in fostering Irish talent in what is a tough industry to break into.
Does this Bill make space, particularly with the provisions relating to RTÉ commissioning content and the potential introduction of that streaming levy, for small and independent production and domestic studios to grow and increase the projects they make? Are there currently any additional barriers to this which could be addressed in this legislation to achieve those goals?
Ms Libbie McQuillan:
I thank the Deputy for the question. I outlined the support in our opening statement and we welcome the increase of independent production accounts. We believe Irish independent production is thriving at present and this is another mechanism which will allow the overall sector to grow. We also believe it will help create creative competition which will, ultimately, be to the betterment of audiences and what is on screen. We all think it is going in a good direction.
Ms Louise Ryan:
To reiterate, the industry has achieved a lot and I thank the Deputy for her comments. We remain incredibly ambitious with our plans for the future, particularly in supporting local talent but equally, we have a dual remit. Responding to Deputy Brennan's query with regard to the US, the dual remit is really important. We have excellent relationships currently with the vast majority of streamers and we are certainly in the top number of countries considered for work as a co-production partner and mobile production. We cannot, however, be complacent. It is an incredibly competitive business. The success we have achieved to date is a result of the sustained support from Government which we have had for the past 20 years. It does not happen by accident or without that support.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Does Ms Ryan think there is anything missing from the legislation to help support that?
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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To follow on in the same vein, it was interesting to hear mention of the good relationship with the US streaming companies. Is there any view about the streaming levy coming not only from the US streaming companies but also from those who are making the fabulous productions here in Ireland? Has that come across?
I have another question about section 481. A cultural test is required at the moment and three of eight criteria must be satisfied. Some of those criteria suggest you could make a film outside Ireland and with little connection to the country. Some of the criteria are quite wide. Should consideration be given to requiring four of the eight criteria to be satisfied? That could make things more indigenous to Ireland and the EU. Some of the criteria are loose.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am more asking for an opinion. The witnesses are the people who help to produce. It know it is the responsibility of the Department. I have had this row with the Minister previously and I will have it again. I am asking about the industry's view on taking a more restrictive approach of requiring productions to satisfy four, rather than three, of the eight criteria set out for the cultural test.
Ms Louise Ryan:
Section 481 is an absolutely foundational cornerstone of the sector. It is currently working. We have an awful lot of elements in respect of training. There are considerable obligations on our producers to ensure that the next generation is coming through. That is important. The detail of the cultural test itself is a matter for the Department.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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My first question was whether the witnesses have had any feedback from US companies. It was said that there is a relationship with US streaming companies in particular. Deputy Brennan was correct that quite a number of programmes are being produced here in Ireland for US audiences. Have they expressed a view on the streaming levy in Ireland? There is a streaming levy in other countries. Would the levy affect the streaming companies' decisions to produce in Ireland?
Ms Louise Ryan:
It is to be expected that the US streamers would not be in favour of a levy. Section 481, as it currently stands, is working. At the heart of Screen Ireland is the importance of investing in local projects. However, we know that to grow the sector it is incredibly important to have a dual remit and for international and local projects to happen at the same time. People build their careers by getting a break on a major show but at the same time get a chance to write, direct and produce their own work. I believe that balance had made a significant contribution to how successful our industry has been and to its growth. As I said, we remain ambitious and have plans for further growth. Section 481 currently works to support both local and international projects. It includes incredibly important obligations in respect of training. All of those elements have worked to date. That is the current position.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses. I must go to the Dáil Chamber.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I thank all the witnesses. I have two quick questions, the first of which is for the Department. How does the Department anticipate the expanded role of audience council to play out, particularly in respect of public service content provision?
My second question relates to the issue of the archives, which are important from an historical perspective. Has any consideration been given to the custodianship and care of archive material not just from the State broadcaster but also from other broadcasters, to include independent content that is produced? What is the role for the National Archives of Ireland for such material? It is important from an historical perspective and for research study, etc.
Mr. Adam Larragy:
The major change will be that the audience council will be statutorily independent. The effect of that will be that it will include no members of staff or board members of RTÉ or TG4, or members of staff of Coimisiún na Meán. At the moment, a member of the board of either RTÉ or TG4 would be a member. In addition, the council will be selected by a selection panel that will be appointed by Coimisiún na Meán. That is reinforcing independence by putting in place an independent selection framework.
At the moment, the audience council presents an annual report. Provision has been made for the annual report to be laid before the Oireachtas, which, you could say, increases the seriousness of the report. The audience council will also have the power to make a special report on any matter related to the public service obligations of RTÉ or TG4. That allows the audience council to set out in a special report anything that comes to its attention during the year. RTÉ or TG4 would have to respond to that special report within four weeks. That is to cover anything that might come up during the year which the audience council would like to address.
Mr. Dermot Horan:
I will respond to the Senator's question about the archive. It absolutely is a national treasure. The audio archive goes back to the 1920s and the film archive goes back to the 1960s. We introduced videotape thereafter. All of this is in peril because the formats are not longer useable. That is why we have undertaken this enormous project. We have been helped by the sound and vision archive scheme through Coimisiún na Meán whereby we have to create collections. Part of the requirement in respect of those collections is that they must be made available to the general public, which we do. The 1960s news summaries are all made available to the public. We can use them in different ways. We can publish them to the public or curate them. People can access them through the great archive website, which gets millions of views each year. We can help to curate the archives. For example, if a really big snow is expected, we can show footage of the snow from the 1980s or 2010. It is a part of who we are. If this new proposed media fund excludes broadcasters from being able to apply, we will not see the richness of the archive collected and made available to the public. Putting all of this material on digital tape and into digital files means we can share it with the public and cultural organisations such as the National Archives of Ireland, the National Library of Ireland and Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, depending on the collection. We support the retention of that ability. We would like Virgin Media, TG4 and independent radio stations to be able to apply as custodians of the archive.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I thank Mr. Horan. The issue is important.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Would Deputy Malcolm Byrne like to ask questions? We are giving people four minutes. If he wants four minutes, he can have them.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The only question I might ask relates to my other hat. I chair the Joint Committee on Artificial Intelligence, AI, and would have an interest in the deployment of AI within the broadcasting and broader media sector if anyone wants to contribute on that issue. I apologise. I saw the witnesses' opening statements but was caught at another event.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Has Deputy Brennan another question?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Will Deputy Gibney put in her question? We could get them all answered in one go.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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That is perfect. The witnesses did not finish responding to the questions from Deputy Brennan.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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They can be answered in the last round.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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My question is for Screen Ireland, the Department or Coimisiún na Meán. Part 6 of the Bill considers the media fund and funding of public service content. It provides for user-generated content being eligible for public funding, including, for example, TikTok videos and others. The producer of this content would be posting from his or her account on these platforms. Would oversight mechanisms to assess the suitability of platforms for the distribution of that content be further scrutinised?
Do the witnesses think that is adequate?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I know Mr. Carson wants to respond to Deputy Brennan. That is fine. I ask that we keep the replies to Deputies Byrne and Gibney tight. Whoever wants to reply can reply.
Mr. Steve Carson:
I will pick up on Deputy Brennan's question. I absolutely echo the support he cited for RTÉ Sport and the match on Saturday. I happened to be watching it in a crowd and you could have heard a pin drop towards the end. RTÉ Sport has a fantastic team. It is a very significant part of our in-house production base.
On the League of Ireland, as we referenced, we bid for the rights for that competition but were unsuccessful. Another broadcaster picked them up. We then went on to secure the rights for the FAI Cup. That is important because we want to maintain that connection to club football in Ireland, which is having a strong resurgence. I will take the Deputy's observation about camogie representation away. I will take a moment to plug our new series about football, "Hell for Leather", which started last night and is also on RTÉ Player. To reassure the Deputy on his observations, we are going through that process and are reducing the headcount this year. Inevitably, some hires come in for urgent operational needs, but every single hire is offset against how we reduce the overall net number and improve this process, including up to the leadership team, to make sure that we are managing that headcount. I assure him on that. I will also take away his other observations.
Ms Eleanor Bleahene:
In response to Deputy Byrne, I am happy to assist as best I can. We have our AI principles, which are published in the context of our governance framework. AI is in the room We are very conscious of that as a public service media provider. We are conscious of ensuring that we have a cross-functional team looking at how we use AI, how it can be used in a safe context, and how it can best be utilised. There are functions for which AI is suitable. However, we would be very reluctant to see it displace the creative element. That is a concern that is perhaps shared by everyone in the room. It is happening very fast. We are looking at what other broadcasters are doing, particularly the BBC and Yle. In fact, I had a discussion this morning with a colleague in technology. It is about very much ensuring that as public service media we use AI in a responsible and transparent way.
Mr. Adam Larragy:
Part 6 of the Bill provides the principles and policies around the making of any media funding scheme for Coimisiún na Meán to impose conditions on the reuse of public service content as part of the scheme's terms and conditions. If needs be, concerns around the use of user-generated content could be addressed through that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank all the witnesses for their time today. We hopefully will not see a couple of them for a while, as they have appeared before us two weeks in a row. The committee stands adjourned until members all get back together at 12.30 p.m. tomorrow.