Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The debate will follow the normal pattern with the Minister having ten minutes, group spokespersons ten minutes, and all other Senators five minutes. The Minister will be called on to reply to the debate. I welcome the Minister to the House. This is the first legislation of this Dáil and Seanad.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I congratulate him on his election as Chair. I credit all the Senators: all the newly elected Senators and those back in situ. I wish everyone the best over the next few months and years.

The purpose of this Bill is to give effect to the decision by Government to increase from 20 to 23 the maximum number of Ministers of State. As the Seanad will be aware, the number has remained unchanged for the past 18 years, since 2007, when Minister of State numbers increased from 17 to 20. The Bill will also allow for the existing allowance for Ministers of State attending Cabinet meetings to be extended to four Ministers of State. At the moment, a maximum of three Ministers of State may receive the allowance for attending Cabinet.

On the first proposed provision, the Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924 first provided for the appointment by the Executive Council of a maximum of seven parliamentary secretaries to act as junior Ministers. In 1977, this provision was replaced by the Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) (No. 2) Act, which allowed for the appointment of Ministers of State from among Members of either House. Section 2 of the 1977 Act provides for the delegation of functions to a Minister of State. A Government order may be made on the request of a Minister, delegating to his or her Minister of State all the Minister’s powers and duties under a particular Act or, more narrowly, any particular statutory power or duty. This reflects the role of the Minister of State in facilitating the Government to work more efficiently by allowing the appointment of junior Ministers and delegating to them specified functions to progress Government priorities. The 1977 Act set the maximum number of Ministers of State at ten. This was increased subsequently to 15 in 1980, 17 in 1995 and 20 in 2007. The major consideration for seeking the proposed change to 23, as was the case in 1980, 1995 and 2007, is the increased volume of Government priorities and business. Since 2007, the expansion of ministerial duties has stemmed from the growing complexity of policy issues, the challenges of steering vast Government initiatives and the heightened involvement with stakeholders at all levels, both nationally and internationally. Many of the new challenges we face are cross-cutting and require cross-departmental responses. For this reason, the Government is reorganising some Departments to better address the main issues that have been identified with a whole-of-government approach.

In relation to the second proposed change, the role of a Minister of State is important in ensuring policy implementation under their area of responsibility. With an additional role and responsibility for contributing to Cabinet meetings, it is appropriate the relevant Ministers of State should receive the allowance relating to that particular role. New ministerial responsibilities at Minister of State level will be delegated to ensure there is an appropriate focus across all Government priorities. Through improved cross-departmental working and promoting simultaneous action, Ministers of State will enable a more cohesive approach to delivering the programme for Government.

There are a range of areas on which the Government will focus its attention. The assistance and support provided by a Minister of State will be essential to achieving our ambitious targets: accelerating the number of homes available; implementing new programmes of health digitalisation and modernisation and reform of the education sector; supporting Irish businesses not only to find new markets but also to reduce costs; bringing together relevant stakeholders to address the needs around community development and policing; providing more focused leadership in management of immigration; and achieving climate and biodiversity goals by focusing on energy transformation while supporting our rural communities and the agrifood sector to prosper.

In addition, and as set out by the Taoiseach, given the global uncertainties and threats we face, this Government is prioritising the protection and strengthening of Ireland’s international relationships with a particular focus on trade and collaboration within the European Union, especially during our upcoming Council Presidency. The Minister of State with responsibility for Europe will oversee these efforts. The Government will also focus on developing a new relationship with the United Kingdom, with all Departments building bilateral relations with their UK counterparts. Our focus will be on fortifying ties with international partners, especially in Europe, to boost trade and create more opportunities for Irish businesses.

Public policy has become more complex as our society has grown and developed. We are all aware of the need to tackle various policy issues in a cross-departmental and more focused manner. The increase in the number of Ministers of State will enable the Government to extend this cross-cutting approach to the many issues in which more than one Department has a significant role. Ministers of State will play a valuable role in the delivery of our extensive programme of Government. This additional work of Ministers of State attending Cabinet should be recognised and compensated in an equitable manner. Accordingly, I commend the Bill to the Seanad.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I propose to share time with Senators Casey and Rabbitte.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister to the Chamber. I congratulate him on his reappointment to Cabinet. There are many challenges ahead. We wish him well on this side of the House concerning those challenges. As he rightly pointed out, we have a new team of Ministers who have unmatched vision and ambition regarding the challenges ahead for our country and what we need to do to reach to them. We have a good mix of experience, talent, knowledge and vision to meet those many challenges. We are conscious of the challenges with a population that has increased by 20% over the past generation. There are also increased numbers in the Dáil so it makes sense that with those increased numbers and the challenges, we extend the number of Ministers of State to reflect this.

There is a very broad range of areas, including better and more efficient delivery of public service and investment, which is what we want to see. We want to see critical infrastructure delivered. It is very clear we need more oversight and more accountability. I was pleased when I saw the renewed focus on issues such as disability, mental health, AI, and the digital economy when this Government was formed. It makes absolute sense to the Fianna Fáil team here that we need to have Ministers of State to have oversight of these issues.

I am aware the Minister mentioned specifically the areas of asylum and migration, the marine and older people, and that we need to have a focused approach on them. Only this morning on the Order of Business I spoke about a situation in my own county of Kildare where, very sadly and unfortunately, residents of the Eyre Powell Hotel direct provision centre were given less than 24 hours to leave. This included 36 children, five of whom are doing State exams, and people who were volunteering with local community groups. Because we did not have a line Minister in place, it was difficult to try to get action and communication, which resulted in us going around all the houses. It is important these Ministers of State are in place to be able to deal with those situations. I was struck by the Minister’s speech when he spoke about key things. The Minister talked about cross-cutting and requiring cross-departmental responses. Far too often we have seen really important issues slip between Departments. That cross-departmental response is hugely important. The Minister also spoke about promoting action and ensuring policy implementation. This is hugely important. I have no doubt that with the legislation in front of us and with the proposals the Minister is making on behalf of the Government, we will be able to take on these tasks in a more cohesive and a more focused direction. Fianna Fáil supports this legislation.

I will now hand over to Senator Casey and then Senator Rabbitte will conclude for our group. I thank the Cathaoirleach.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I also welcome the Minister today and wish him well in his new role in public expenditure and reform. The purpose of today's Bill has already been outlined. It is to increase the number of Ministers of State up to 23. Anybody who lives in a modern, complex society must understand that the challenges increase daily and there is a need to split roles and responsibilities.This is what the Taoiseach has outlined. It is a very strong programme for Government that needs to be implemented. To implement that successfully, we need key people over strategic areas in it. Even within that, we could look at it and say we need to break it down even further. If we look at the role for my colleague in relation to trade promotion, AI and digital transformation, AI could warrant and deserve a Minister in its own right if we take it from a security and safety point of view and the opportunities it will give this country moving forward.

Everybody in the room here might have met people from Age Friendly Ireland. They had a campaign to have a Minister for older people. Nobody denies a Minister for older people is not needed in a modern society. All the Taoiseach is proposing is we extend the Ministers of State by an additional three to spread the responsibilities so we in government can take responsibility for delivery in those sectors.

I fully support this proposal today and I look forward to seeing the delivery of the results of the appointment of the additional Ministers of State. As the programme for Government outlined, the areas of disabilities, mental health, older people and digital transformation are the specific areas we need to focus on and nobody disagrees. We need Ministers of State to track all of that as well.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Before I call Senator Rabbitte, I welcome the transition year group to Seanad Éireann today. They are on a study week with the parliamentary education officer. You are most welcome to Seanad Éireann and I hope you are learning a lot while you are here. I saw you in the room downstairs earlier and I know you were all heavily engaged in what you were being told.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the TY students here this afternoon. The Minister, Deputy Chambers, is very welcome to the House and I am delighted to stand before him in support of the legislation he has brought forward. This legislation is really important, with the view of extending the numbers from 20 to 23. The key point of this is to improve cross-departmental working. When we look at the marine, we have not had a Minister of State with responsibility for the marine since 2011. Since then we have had Brexit and we need to protect our shores. It is important the industry has somebody specifically to go to who can work in tandem with the Minister who can ensure their voices and their policy needs are responded to.

It is the same situation when we talk about asylum and immigration. I worked in the Department for the last five years and I saw how hard the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, worked and what a difficulty it was to have it all embedded within childcare and disabilities. Plucking it out, making it a sole responsibility and giving it that laser attention is imperative to ensure that people who are seeking asylum and are immigrating here are addressed in a timely, orderly fashion and we do not find ourselves in the situation which Senator O'Loughlin talked about this morning of not having that go-to contact. That is really important. That responds to the community's needs as well as the individual's needs. It is about working in tandem with our local authorities. It is also about working with our justice system and our childcare system. It is about working on the whole-of-government cross-departmental piece.

Finally, the older person piece is really important. Senator Casey outlined it very well. I saw how hard the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, worked with older people. I also saw the huge need among older people for access to transport and to housing, and in terms of older people who go into respite or a nursing home but who are afraid of what will happen to their houses while in respite or in a nursing home or whether they will lose their local authority house. What are their rights? That support and having a Minister of State with a foot in both Departments is really important to bring about that policy shift and to work with the various advocacy groups and agencies to ensure the voice of the older person is heard. We have a growing demographic of older people in this country. As I get older, I would like to think there is an eye on older people to ensure our rights are protected because with dementia and capacity issues, we need to ensure that the most important thing for people, the roof over their head, is protected. Having a Minister of State for older people within the housing brief, as well as in the health brief, is really important.

That increase from 20 to 23 has been very targeted and there has been a lot of learning from the previous Government as to the key factors to delivery and ensuring all elements within society are protected. Within the Department of disability and youth, the responsible Ministers, the Minister, Deputy Foley, and the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, can now focus solely on disabilities and on ensuring the services are funded and provided for. I thank the Minister for bringing this Bill before us. I, along with my colleagues, I am very happy to support it.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Clearly, the issue before us today that the Minister has introduced is about increasing the number of junior Ministers, and of super junior Ministers who attend but do not speak at Cabinet meetings. As the Minister will know, one of the regrets is that there are a number of cases before the High Court at the moment in relation to this. One seeks a judicial review and one seeks an injunction. Legislation is being shunted through both Houses of the Oireachtas without any benefit of judicial guidance on this matter, which is something that is clearly required.

Article 28 of the Constitution stipulates that "the Government shall meet and act as a collective authority, and shall be collectively responsible for the Departments of State.". That collective responsibility has always been understood as being that Government decisions are taken by membership of the Government. That is one of the issues I challenge here. The second is the issue of confidentiality, which was obviously subject to an amendment to the Constitution in 1997 to explicitly enshrine the confidentiality of Cabinet discussions. That makes it clear that Cabinet discussions should not be witnessed by anyone who is not a member of the Government. This proposition potentially falls foul of all of that.

The Government has not got off to a very auspicious start - from the initial attempt to place Government-supporting TDs on the Opposition benches and giving them speaking time, although thankfully, it has retreated from that position, to the decision to take a week off during the time that the country was being ravaged by, and is still suffering the after effects of, Storm Éowyn. We are now in a position where this proposition is being forced through the Dáil and Seanad at a rapid pace with all Stages being taken in one day. That does not add to a sense of the Government doing things correctly, by the book and getting on with its business in the interest of the country.

The Minister outlined the progression over the years in relation to this and clearly that has grown and grown. The number of Ministers of State and of super junior Ministers is a new concept. He outlined the issues in relation to complexity of policy and cross-cutting issues in relation to Government. There is no doubt there has been increasing complexity in terms of how Governments do their business. For instance, when we take the removal of trade from its natural home in the Department of enterprise and put it into the Department run by the Tánaiste, which is clearly something Fine Gael or the Tánaiste required as an addition to his brief, we wonder where the complexities and lack of joined up Government is created.

The Minister chartered the progression of legislation in relation to the increases but this does not put a stop to that. This does not mean that at the formation of the next Government, there will not be another increase. The benefit of people playing a role in government is reduced and is considered as part of a negotiation - a negotiation in this instance brokered by Deputy Lowry - but a negotiation nonetheless about awarding positions to try to get support for a Government rather than as the Minister outlined in his defence of it something which increases the efficiency of Government. From our perspective, this is more about the spoils of a negotiation rather than the effectiveness of Government.

There is an opportunity under Article 26 of the Constitution for the President to look at this and to ask the Council of State to discuss the constitutionality of it, but for our part, as far as today goes, we will oppose the legislation and will vote against it. It is a matter of regret we are in a situation where rather than wait until we get some judicial advice in relation to this matter, we press on with forcing this through both Houses of the Oireachtas.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister and congratulate him on his appointment as Minister for public expenditure and reform.I support this legislation. Reference has been made to the fact that government is becoming more complex and that responsibilities are ever increasing. It was interesting during the preparation of our party's manifesto to note the number of sectoral groups that came in with very reasonable pitches but many of which sought a stand-alone Minister of State or even a stand-alone Minister at Cabinet to deal with the specific issues they had. That is in some ways understandable but the constitutional limitation on the number of Cabinet Ministers is 15. That cannot change without a referendum of the people. While that could be a consideration in future, that is the limit as matters stand. When one has sectoral groups seeking additional and improved attendance at Cabinet to champion their sectoral interests, it is understandable that there would be a request for more Ministers of State.

I meant to say that I wished to share time with Senator Joe O'Reilly. Is that okay?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I was lucky enough to serve in the other House for two terms and, as a Minister of State and Chief Whip, I attended Cabinet. The responsibilities given to Ministers of State are delegated responsibilities, namely, legal responsibilities, and the requests that the Ministers make of them. Sometimes, that involves heading over to Brussels or some other location in Europe to attend sectoral meetings relevant to their Departments. The amount of time spent on these things can be quite high. The former Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, commented on the change from his first term as Taoiseach to his second term of Taoiseach being exponential in terms of the amount of foreign travel. That is just indicative of the greater role of Europe. It is therefore necessary to have more Ministers of State to carry out this work.

It is important to note an ongoing issue, namely, whether Ministers of State actually get their responsibilities and delegated functions. It goes through the Cabinet for approval, so it is important that they get them. I would suggest that Ministers of State should be involved in budget negotiations with their Ministers concerning the issues they handle and that they be a vital part of the management board meetings that take place within each Department from time to time with the Secretary General, assistant principal officers and so on.

As the Cathaoirleach knows well, I often raised issues pertaining to Inland Fisheries Ireland during the previous Seanad. I will not dwell on those now, but had there been a Minister of State with responsibility for inland fisheries in the previous Government, we would have had the oversight that was necessary to manage the issues within the sector. That is absolutely the case. The then Minister, Mr. Ryan, had responsibility for two Departments but had no Minister of State within either with responsibility for communications, natural resources and inland fisheries. Had there been a Minister of State, as there will be now within the Department of the marine in the form of Timmy Dooley, there would be oversight and a go-to person to link in with that important issue. This is just one example. There are many other sectors equally, more or perhaps less important, but oversight would be required.

On the allowances, it stands to reason that, if one is getting a promotion in any walk of life, one is compensated for that. I was lucky enough to attend the Cabinet as Government Chief Whip for a number of years. As it happens, I did not get an allowance because it was not legislated for, and we did not push through legislation for that matter. It is important that the three Galway super juniors - Deputies Naughton, Grealish and Canney - and the Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, get the additional allowance for attendance at Cabinet that I did not get. It is important they receive it because it is additional work and responsibility, including Cabinet responsibilities, and an additional overnight in Dublin the night before a Cabinet meeting.

I welcome the Bill. Being a Minister is a significant responsibility and one can see from time to time when issues arise and things go wrong, as they do - they will go wrong for somebody, mark my words, and I hope it is not the Minister of State, Deputy Higgins - that a Minister will be under pressure within the Department and from the Opposition. The pressures, including those on families, are huge. We have seen good people who, unfortunately, have had to resign from office as a result of the pressures and stresses of their positions, things they did, things they did not do or things they did in the past coming back to haunt them. There are significant responsibilities on everybody within this House, everybody in the other House and those in government who have been lucky enough to get positions as Ministers or Ministers of State.

I support the Bill, I commend it to the House and I pass over to Senator O'Reilly.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The job of Government at any given time is to respond to the needs of and pressing issues in society. This Bill will assist in dealing with two major contemporary issues. One is the issue of older persons. Older people who are living longer and who have complex needs form an increasingly large cohort of the population. There is clearly a need for a particular type of cluster housing for older persons with facilities around them. There is a need to put home help or, rather, home support on a statutory basis in the home so that the same facilities can be provided to an older person at home as are provided in a nursing home.

My colleague, the former Minister of State, Senator Rabbitte, was outstanding in the area of disability in the previous Administration. It is an area whose needs are crying out. While the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, will deal well with what was identified yesterday, there are also issues with waiting lists for assessment, the need for subsequent treatments and facilities. There is so much to be done.

The issue should not be some narrow populist focus on who is what, who is where or this or that number. It is about asking whether we addressing society's needs adequately. To address the complex needs of the modern society we live in, we need the extra Ministries. We need the Ministers of State to have a voice at Cabinet and to be aware of what is happening within Cabinet for transfer to their respective Departments.

I am delighted to welcome my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Higgins. As she did previously, she is going about her job in a very effective way.

The people out there will judge this Parliament and Government by how we respond to their needs and what mechanisms we put in place that improve their lives. Will there be a tangible difference in their lives at the end of the five years? That is the question today, not some sort of nonsense talk about how many there is of this and that. The question before the House is what needs are we dealing with, how are we dealing with them, who is dealing with them and who is effectively dealing with them. A rational response to that question is to vote in favour of the addition of the super junior Ministers of State on the premise that they are responding and will respond effectively.

It would be reasonable for an Opposition to challenge a particular policy position or nomination if it felt a person was unfit. That is part of a democratic debate, but what is not reasonable is to challenge dealing with a gaping societal need that needs to be dealt with.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister State is welcome to the House. I am aware of the fact that, on one side, we have a parallel process going on where we have a number of judicial cases on this issue and, on the other side, we have a transparent process being entered into by the Government. On the basis that it is transparent and open, I welcome that. As to my colleagues who have cases down in the High Court, I wish them well. The State has deep pockets and will probably keep them there for years as they have been keeping me on a secret deal, running me through every process possible to delay the inevitable outcome. However, in this instance, I fully support the State. I fully support the Government in what it is trying to do. Can anyone in this room honestly say that a corporate entity would be run where the CEO of the organisation had responsibility for everything? I ran a business in the 1980s where I took responsibility for everything. I was the salesperson, the chief executive, the accounting officer and everything, and I was broke. I lost everything. I lost my home and everything I owned, and I learned the dearest lesson anybody will ever learn, and that is that no man or woman can be responsible for everything.

What we really should be talking about here is that this legislation is a temporary move before we go to the people and establish what we should have as a Cabinet. The Cabinet should probably, in this modern world - Senator Pat Casey mentioned it a few moments ago - have 30 Cabinet Ministers in order to handle the complex issues that come before the Oireachtas on a regular basis. I look at the Deputy Simon Harris. He is Tánaiste; he is also Minister for Foreign Affairs, which is a massive portfolio. He is also Minister for trade, which is a massive portfolio, and, stuck somewhere at the end of it, he is Minister for Defence. Can anybody in this room, whether Opposition or Government, tell me how any single individual can be responsible for all of that? How much time does defence get with the Minister? Does it get a half day a month? How much time does trade get? It needs an enormous amount of time. How much time does foreign affairs get? Then let us look at the inevitable mistake, error or problem that arises, that my colleague Senator Kyne adverted to. An issue arises and we want answers. What do we do in politics? We fire the Minister and we create all hell around them. In the last Oireachtas, however, while I spent four years trying to get a Secretary General to come before a committee and explain what was going on in his Department, the answer was, "It is the Minister who is answerable to the Oireachtas."

Let us wake up and be honest about what we are talking about here. We are talking about three extra super juniors. It is not the end of the world. It might make for better management. One of the things I would like to see happen is that we narrow down what people are responsible for, instead of having them sprawling across three or four Departments. If I am not mistaken, in the last Oireachtas, we had a Minister who was responsible for post and telegraphs, part of transport and part of search and rescue, and had some responsibility in communications as well. For God's sake, let us be honest about it.

Rather than arguing and trying to down this, let us look at it as a temporary move as we move forward. Some day, whether we like it or not, we are going to have to go to the public in this country and say to them that we need to increase the number of Cabinet Ministers and that has to be done by referendum. We are also going to have to say to them that we have to put a stop on the growth of the Dáil itself. We are at 174 Members today. In a couple of years' time, there will probably be a requirement for another ten Members of the Oireachtas and, very soon, we will have to have tiered seating down in the Dáil. Let us get real about it. Any party that finished up in government this year would have been faced with exactly the same problems on how we go forward.

It is not a time for posturing. This country has serious problems. I have heard people in here talk about housing, disability, health and all of those things, yet one individual is expected to take responsibility for a number of Departments where he or she might only get a briefing once a month for half a day. Then, when something goes wrong, that individual is brought in here and flogged to death, or flogged to death down in the Dáil, and the press and everybody else has a go at him or her. Let us look at this as a way of moving forward whereby we get a slightly better Government than we had the last time, insofar as people have fewer responsibilities thrust upon them, and that we get a much better reaction.

Let us also look at the reform of who is and how people are answerable to this Oireachtas - to joint committees, the Seanad itself and the Dáil. Secretaries General are paid a fortune, far more than any Minister. Why are they not responsible and directly answerable to committees of this Oireachtas? We see millions of euro being spent, yet these people can hide behind the ghost, push the Minister forward and let the Minister answer the question. As we know, we stay for four or five years at the most. If a new Minister goes into a new Department, something goes wrong and there is a major problem coming down the road, it is the Minister who takes the hit for it, not the people who have been managing it all along.

We need to get real about what politics is doing in this country. We need to become more supportive of our politicians. I accept that we have an Opposition, a critical Opposition that calls out Government on everything it does wrong, but we must also come together as public representatives and demand better from those who are actually doing the work in this State. In the last Oireachtas, we were talking about bicycle sheds, security guards' huts and children's hospitals. All of these things have gone on over several decades. The children's hospital is going on so long in this country that I cannot remember when it started, but it did start at about €600 million, and it is looking likely to go to €2.5 billion, and what is the answer we get? It is that we will have the best hospital in Europe. Is that a legitimate answer? It is not. How is it happening? It is happening because Ministers have too many responsibilities and portfolios. They do not have time. I do not know why anyone would even take the job of a Minister. They do not have time to deal with any one thing. My own experience, for what it was worth, was if you bring people along with you, you can actually make things work. If you try to run everything yourself, you are doomed to failure. We have seen too many failures in this country now. I will give the Government a lash every chance I get, but there are times when you have to step back from giving the Government a lash and deal with things because they have to be what they are.

I hope we will see this legislation passed. The courts will decide, in their wisdom, whether we have in some way usurped the Constitution. All my colleagues here were handed a copy of the Constitution when they were elected. It is the rule book of the society in which we live. It is the rule book that was agreed by the citizens of this country. It is the guide for all of us. I commend colleagues who have decided to go to the courts to have this legislation or agreement tested. That is what the courts are there for and that is what we should do but we must never allow a situation like the case I currently have with respect to the secret deal with the RAF. Nobody should ever be able to sign a secret deal on anything. At the end of the day, we should know. It should be open and transparent, as this legislation is. Like it or lump it, it is here and you can read it. Everything you need to know is in it and if you want to argue it, you can argue it. We should argue it and we should test everything that comes through this House.

I commend the approach being taken by Sinn Féin today. It should bring it down to the courts, which are the final arbitrator of the Constitution, and let them decide if the Constitution has been usurped. If it has, then let the Government find a solution to that but we need to stay within the Constitution. I say to Senators that as they serve here - there are lots of new Members present - whenever they have a doubt, they should go to the Constitution and look at it. They may feel somewhere along the line that somebody has set aside the Constitution in the greater need. There is a great argument for that but if it is set aside for one thing, it can be set aside for everything. It is grand when you set it aside for a greater need until that greater need is human rights, access to the courts or something else.

Before we start flogging the Government to death on this, at least it has come out in the open. It has given it to us and we can debate it, discuss it, criticise it, vote on it later on today and we can let it pass but for God's sake, let us not waste the next five years arguing over things that do not need to be argued over.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Anois, an Seanadóir Alice-Mary Higgins, who has ten minutes. Does she wish to share time?

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I just want to check something.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry. I am calling on this group. I know it is not an official group but you can share time-----

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay, so my colleagues will both get to speak.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If the Senator wants to share time, she may do so. I think there are four in that group and the Senator is on her own. She has ten minutes if she wants them.

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Maybe I can give two minutes to my colleagues as I am not going to be very long, and then the others can share the ten minutes between them, if that is okay.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will be very brief because I do not have amendments in this and those who do have amendments will be speaking and putting forward very good cases for why we need very good cases when making such a decision and, given, in fairness, some of what has been put forward by some of the Members regarding the arguments for why we need the Ministers of State, the importance of us actually having and being able to look at the information on what the additional value will be, what the role will be and how it will be envisaged, before we go jumping into the decision. Regarding some of those who are looking for this, I hope the Minister will take on board calls for studies of things like cost-effectiveness and the added value so that we have that information and we do not suddenly have in the next Oireachtas, because we have been in this place before, another number being produced without being able to look to and actually have evidence of what the impact may or may not have been in terms of junior Ministers.

I will speak quite briefly. My focus is somewhat on a concern or a danger that comes with junior Ministries. I am quite excited about some of the junior Ministries and I recognise some individuals here in the House who have done very good work in junior ministerial roles previously. I also recognise that there are some very talented individuals who have been appointed or will be appointed to junior ministerial roles and that there are some important subject matters. AI has been spoken about, and in terms of a threat, AI is one that probably should have a linkage across to the Department of the environment given its impact on environment and energy. Those are pieces that get missed out and there are significant dangers in regulatory areas that are going to be crucial. On older people, we have had very good Ministers and junior Ministers for older people, such as Áine Brady and others who have served, and I acknowledge in terms of biodiversity, for example, a former colleague of mine from the climate committee, Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan, who I know has a genuine passion in this area, but going back to the area of older people, I would maybe add a cautionary note that while one of the things we have that came out of having a junior Minister was the national positive ageing strategy, the issue was that the national positive ageing strategy really was not implemented. The issue is that junior Ministers can find themselves in the position of being the ones who make great plans but do not actually have access to the resources to deliver them.

My concern is not about the cost of the secretaries or the cost of a car or whatever it might be. My concern is how junior Ministries fit in to the Government and to the parliamentary piece here. What I do not want, and we need assurances, and I say this having been through two terms and having seen a lot of junior Ministers come and go, is junior Ministers who are there to act as a buffer for a senior Minister so that a senior Minister does not have to come into the room and answer the difficult questions. We want junior Ministers coming into the room who are empowered to actually answer questions, to make decisions and to accept amendments. If a junior Minister is seeing the case made for an amendment on an issue that is not at odds with the programme for Government, where it is a sensible proposal coming from the Opposition, the junior Minister should be able to accept that amendment. They should not have to go back and ask the senior Minister or be unable to say why they cannot accept it because the person who can actually answer the question is not in the room. Junior Ministers are not someone you send in to give soundbites or speeches and act as spokespeople only then to deny them the actual possibility of meaningfully engaging with us here in the Seanad on the really important subject matters and issues. It cannot be feel-good, giving them a €5 million budget or a €20 million budget for something, that is what they have, they get to do a few bits and pieces, have some photo opportunities around the country and places feel a Minister has visited them. They need to be coming in with the power in areas like AI, positive ageing and age equality, and biodiversity to make actual decisions in their Department, with civil servants whom they do not answer to but who answer to them. They need to have clear realms of autonomy of engagement, where of course they will talk to Cabinet and to their senior Minister, but where they also have authority and where we can meaningfully engage.

There is what they do in their Departments, ensuring they have actual discretion, decision-making power, meaningful resources and the capacity to follow through, and then there is the backup piece where, when they engage with us, be it in a committee or here in Seanad, they are ready to answer questions, to speak to their brief, to debate their brief, ready for a back-and-forth on their brief, and ready to change position on their brief if that is what is called for and if the case is made. This is the really important thing here. We do not want it to be the case of giving it more importance, with there being a badge and the name and the keyword you care about is being used all the time. What actually matter are the structures of power, the actual structures of accountability, and how all of these junior Ministers are going to fit into that. I have seen very good people throw themselves at the role of junior Minister and not being able to deliver as they should because they are hamstrung. I have also seen people, and I not naming anyone, going into the role of junior Minister who seem to think they are still backbenchers, who do not even seem to have an appetite for doing anything with it, and who literally say " I do not have any power". They do have power and they need to have power.

This is what I want to hear when the Minister responds to this debate: that we will see junior Ministers coming in here and accepting good amendments from the Opposition when there is no reason not to; that we will see junior Ministers making decisions; that things junior Ministers start are not just pilot schemes but actually become a genuine shift, properly resourced, in national policy; and that we will have accountability for junior Ministers, but also that that does not become a screen for accountability for senior Ministers. If we have a situation on Commencement Matters or on debates where we are not getting the answers we need from a junior Minister and this House requests that we need the senior Minister to come in here and be accountable, the senior Minister should be made available to the Seanad for that reason. These are the questions I have about the Bill and supporting it and how it impacts. It would also send a very good signal if the Minister present were able to accept some of the amendments that are looking for practical information and practical accountability in these decisions in order that, the next time we are making it 30 Ministers or whatever else we will go to in the future, we actually are doing it on an evidence base of it having made a difference for the people of Ireland, for Parliament and for effective policy.

Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I really appreciate the complexities around government and running a country. I do not believe we should shy away from that but we need to make sure that evolution is happening in a way that is meaningfully considered. Senator Craughwell said it might make for better management. I would like us to make this decision on evidence. I will introduce an amendment later that requests a report within three months and, instead of approving this Bill, we would have a report looking at the evidence base. We have had very little meaningful discussion. We as legislators have not been provided with evidence that more Ministers of State will indeed make the State run more efficiently. It seems to be taken as read and as assumed that having more Ministers of State will make the work more efficient, but I do not want to take that as assumed. I would like a report with evidence that actually points to it, including data evidence and compelling business cases. We heard anecdotally this morning about different areas, including for older people, but why can we not put that into reports so we are making this decision on an evidence base?

We all have a responsibility, as we are all deeply aware, to the taxpayers. We have a plethora of examples within the past few months - even from yesterday but I will not go into the details - of spending not being made well. The public are not happy about that. Let us not make that same mistake again with this where we are just making a decision without evidence and without proper consideration. We do not want to undermine public trust in the decisions we make. I believe that making this decision without proper evidence and without a report will be doing that.I am not inherently opposed to the idea of expanding the number of Ministers of State for the work if it needs to be done but I believe that discussion and decision need to be based on evidence, facts and figures. I very much request that, instead of it falling into this Bill, the Government lays a report before both Houses on why this makes sense and why it is good value for money for the taxpayer prior to increasing the number of Ministers of State. I do not believe we can meaningfully evaluate and legislate on it without this report.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know they are not an official group but do the next speakers wish to share time?

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, I wish to share time with Senator Harmon.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that agreed? Agreed. This is open-ended so Senators can have five minutes later, if they wish.

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Higgins. We served in the previous Administration together. I congratulate her on her appointment and wish her all the best for the term ahead.

Listening back, I was particularly taken by the comments from Senator Joe O'Reilly about the response of the Government to the pressing issues of society. In looking at the appointment to Ministries of Ministers of State, I am somewhat disappointed. In 2019, the Dáil declared a biodiversity emergency as well as a climate emergency, and the 2020 programme for government recognised this by ensuring that biodiversity, for the very first time, had a seat at the Cabinet table. I am delighted with the appointment of the Minister of State, Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan, to my old post and I will work closely with him over the next term. However, the fact the role of nature has been downgraded in this Administration is most unfortunate. Both the children's assembly and the Citizens’ Assembly on Biodiversity Loss recommended that there be a senior post for nature. We need only look at the lost opportunity regarding Inland Fisheries Ireland, a point made by Senator Kyne. All of nature should be in a single portfolio. Whether it concerns habitats, the National Parks and Wildlife Service, the EPA, freshwater ecology or marine diversity, it needs a coherent approach.

One of the things I found during the term of the last Government was that this disjointed element often pressed challenges on me, as Minister of State, and on other Departments in trying to address those wider issues. This was particularly the case with the National Parks and Wildlife Service and the incredible work it is doing in managing a huge estate of eight national parks and 78 nature reserves, as well as all of biodiversity policy. This Government will have to face into a statutory national nature restoration plan, a statutory national biodiversity action plan, marine protected areas, on which I will speak shortly, and a water action plan, which is the only means of retaining our nitrates derogation and improving water quality across the country.

Some amendments have been tabled regarding the delegation of functions and the responsibilities of Ministers of State. It is a real challenge, and I know Senator Rabbitte and the Minister of State, Deputy Higgins, will attest to this as well. It took quite a long time for the delegated functions to come to me, as Minister of State, and you feel that you have no responsibility until that delegated function arrives on your desk. With regard to the marine protected areas, it arrived very late in my term of government and we had a huge challenge in trying to get that legislation developed. It is still not developed so I welcome the commitment in the legislative agenda, if not in the programme for Government, on delivering MPAs. All Senators have spoken about this wider interdependence and the responsibilities of Ministers of State, their actual function and role, and their accountability in both Houses to TDs and Senators. That is the real challenge here, and I know the Minister of State will agree with that.

I do not doubt the intent of the Government to look at the broader range and try to ensure we cover a much more diverse range of challenges, and the point made by Senator Craughwell regarding the Minister for Defence is also vital. What concerns me about expanding the number of Ministries and Ministers of State is the delegated function piece and the responsibilities. That needs to happen as soon as possible so the Ministers of State can get to work on the ground and on their legislative programme, and have actual powers to operate in their areas of competence.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State. We need to be clear that investing in democracy is always a good thing but we in the Labour Party are not convinced that this is the best value for money or the most effective way to invest in our democracy. It is up to the Government to convince us and the public otherwise on this matter. This is about accountability, the effective delivery of government and cost-effectiveness.

It is worth noting that this would represent a significant jump in the number of junior Ministries from 15 in 2016 to 23 in 2025, which is a significant increase in a very short space of time. We have amendments tabled which will look at how we can increase accountability and ensure cost-effectiveness, and I will speak to those later. The Labour Party estimates that each new Minister of State would cost upwards of €500,000, and with all-in costs, we would have a starting point of €1.5 million per year or €7.5 million during the lifetime of the Government.

It may be perceived, and I believe it is being perceived if we look at the public discourse, that this could represent “jobs for our own” or keeping certain sectors or, potentially, Independents happy within a new Government. That is something that is being represented in the public discourse. We have seen a lot of discourse in recent months in regard to the waste of public money and expenditure, and we need to be extremely mindful of that. Less is not always more. We need to guard against bloating in government and we do not want too much of a bloated government structure.

This is not the kind of job creation that we envisaged prior to the election. There are other areas where we would like to see meaningful job creation and increased salaries. We just need to look at the teaching profession, nurses or gardaí. Where is the job creation there? I would argue that places like Australia and Dubai are where that job creation is happening. We need to look at other areas of job creation. We talk a lot in this Chamber, rightly so, about the need for more investment in local government, how we increase functionality and effectiveness there and whether we need more representation at that level.

I would make the point that we want and absolutely need our Ministers to succeed, whether current Ministers or any Ministers being appointed. We need them to succeed, and all of us in the Opposition want that as well. We have some fabulous former Ministers of State in the Chamber with us today as well.

It is up to the Government to prove the cost-effectiveness of this and the need for it. As I said, we have tabled amendments, which I will speak to later.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are no other speakers at this stage but Senators will have an opportunity to come back in on the next stage. I call the Minister of State to reply.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I congratulate everybody who is taking up a seat in the Chamber. In particular, I congratulate those who undertook successful elections to get here and everybody who took their seat in Seanad Éireann for the first time yesterday. It is an immense honour and I wish them every success over the next five years. I also take this opportunity to offer comhghairdeas to you, a Chathaoirligh, on your successful election. I acknowledge all of the contributions made here today. I acknowledge the experiences shared by Members who themselves served as Ministers of State, or super-juniors, as we call them.

I want to be clear. It is absolutely the Government's intention to ensure that the work of new Ministers of State is fully meaningful and achieves the flexibility and the whole-of-government approach that is outlined in our vision for Ireland, which is, of course, our document, the programme for Government 2025. As Minister of State both now and in the previous Government, the importance of the role of the Minister of State is something I can attest to personally. I am the newly appointed Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform and I currently have responsibility for e-Government, public procurement and digitalisation.It was great to hear Senator Higgins speak about AI and its importance, which will very much be coming into my brief. These are very important areas of focus which will help us deliver a modern, simplified and intuitive public service for all of the people we represent. We are doing this in an increasingly digital age and an increasingly digital global economy.

In my previous role as Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment I had special responsibility for business, employment and retail and 37 Acts were delegated to me in this capacity. These ranged from sick leave to patents. I had oversight of vital bodies such as the Workplace Relations Commission, the Labour Court and the Health and Safety Authority. I chaired the retail forum and the subgroup of the Labour Employment Economic Forum, of which ICTU and IBEC are members. This important work was undertaken done not only on behalf of the Cabinet Minister or the Department but on behalf of the Government and society as a whole. Senator Higgins spoke about the need for Ministers of State to be empowered to make decisions. In my previous role I had responsibility for the national minimum wage, sectoral employment orders and increasing quotas for work permits. These were all issues on which I made decisions in my capacity as Minister of State. Ministers of State throughout the Government make such decisions in Departments.

All Minister of State roles are important. They serve the Government, protect jobs, grow our economy and deliver for society. As our population grows, the Dáil grows to reflect this. I take on board Senator Harmon's comments that our local authorities need to grow to reflect the increasing population. It makes sense that the number of Ministers of State grows in a way that is meaningful to the delivery of public services and key areas of our economy and communities. This is why the Government is creating three additional Minister of State roles. They will have specific responsibility for key areas of importance to us. These are migration, fisheries and further education and apprenticeships. With this complement of Ministers of State the Government will be able to respond more quickly to emerging issues and crises and make our Administration more agile and responsive to the needs of our growing population. This is in the context of additional EU regulations and travel requirements as Senator Kyne has said, and the modernisation and digitalisation of the global economy as Senator Higgins has said.

Additional cross-functional Ministers of State will help to deliver a whole-of-government approach. Ministers of State working in collaboration with one another and across various Departments will help to break down silos. This will help create a whole-of-government culture right across the public service. We hear calls for this all of the time. The new Minister of State with responsibility for fisheries and the marine will be assigned to two different Departments. He will be assigned to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and to the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications. Having involvement in several Departments will ensure these Ministers of State can pull together the policy structures in the areas involved. I take on board Senator Craughwell's concerns about having Ministers of State across different Departments but I view it from the perspective of being able to pull together and achieve more.

Senator Noonan spoke about the delegation of powers. The quicker we can get the legislation through, the quicker this delegation of powers can happen for Ministers of State.

With regard to the technicalities of the Bill, fundamentally it is very brief. It will increase the number of Ministers of State from 20 to 23 and will extend to one additional Minister of State the existing allowances for Ministers of State who sit at Cabinet. As Senator Kyne said, it is fair and reasonable that the extra person who has the additional responsibility of regularly attending Cabinet meetings receives the relevant allowance for fulfilling the role and that the additional work is duly recognised. I thank all Senators for their comments and their support for the Bill.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Now.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that agreed? Agreed.