Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I will be very brief because I do not have amendments in this and those who do have amendments will be speaking and putting forward very good cases for why we need very good cases when making such a decision and, given, in fairness, some of what has been put forward by some of the Members regarding the arguments for why we need the Ministers of State, the importance of us actually having and being able to look at the information on what the additional value will be, what the role will be and how it will be envisaged, before we go jumping into the decision. Regarding some of those who are looking for this, I hope the Minister will take on board calls for studies of things like cost-effectiveness and the added value so that we have that information and we do not suddenly have in the next Oireachtas, because we have been in this place before, another number being produced without being able to look to and actually have evidence of what the impact may or may not have been in terms of junior Ministers.

I will speak quite briefly. My focus is somewhat on a concern or a danger that comes with junior Ministries. I am quite excited about some of the junior Ministries and I recognise some individuals here in the House who have done very good work in junior ministerial roles previously. I also recognise that there are some very talented individuals who have been appointed or will be appointed to junior ministerial roles and that there are some important subject matters. AI has been spoken about, and in terms of a threat, AI is one that probably should have a linkage across to the Department of the environment given its impact on environment and energy. Those are pieces that get missed out and there are significant dangers in regulatory areas that are going to be crucial. On older people, we have had very good Ministers and junior Ministers for older people, such as Áine Brady and others who have served, and I acknowledge in terms of biodiversity, for example, a former colleague of mine from the climate committee, Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan, who I know has a genuine passion in this area, but going back to the area of older people, I would maybe add a cautionary note that while one of the things we have that came out of having a junior Minister was the national positive ageing strategy, the issue was that the national positive ageing strategy really was not implemented. The issue is that junior Ministers can find themselves in the position of being the ones who make great plans but do not actually have access to the resources to deliver them.

My concern is not about the cost of the secretaries or the cost of a car or whatever it might be. My concern is how junior Ministries fit in to the Government and to the parliamentary piece here. What I do not want, and we need assurances, and I say this having been through two terms and having seen a lot of junior Ministers come and go, is junior Ministers who are there to act as a buffer for a senior Minister so that a senior Minister does not have to come into the room and answer the difficult questions. We want junior Ministers coming into the room who are empowered to actually answer questions, to make decisions and to accept amendments. If a junior Minister is seeing the case made for an amendment on an issue that is not at odds with the programme for Government, where it is a sensible proposal coming from the Opposition, the junior Minister should be able to accept that amendment. They should not have to go back and ask the senior Minister or be unable to say why they cannot accept it because the person who can actually answer the question is not in the room. Junior Ministers are not someone you send in to give soundbites or speeches and act as spokespeople only then to deny them the actual possibility of meaningfully engaging with us here in the Seanad on the really important subject matters and issues. It cannot be feel-good, giving them a €5 million budget or a €20 million budget for something, that is what they have, they get to do a few bits and pieces, have some photo opportunities around the country and places feel a Minister has visited them. They need to be coming in with the power in areas like AI, positive ageing and age equality, and biodiversity to make actual decisions in their Department, with civil servants whom they do not answer to but who answer to them. They need to have clear realms of autonomy of engagement, where of course they will talk to Cabinet and to their senior Minister, but where they also have authority and where we can meaningfully engage.

There is what they do in their Departments, ensuring they have actual discretion, decision-making power, meaningful resources and the capacity to follow through, and then there is the backup piece where, when they engage with us, be it in a committee or here in Seanad, they are ready to answer questions, to speak to their brief, to debate their brief, ready for a back-and-forth on their brief, and ready to change position on their brief if that is what is called for and if the case is made. This is the really important thing here. We do not want it to be the case of giving it more importance, with there being a badge and the name and the keyword you care about is being used all the time. What actually matter are the structures of power, the actual structures of accountability, and how all of these junior Ministers are going to fit into that. I have seen very good people throw themselves at the role of junior Minister and not being able to deliver as they should because they are hamstrung. I have also seen people, and I not naming anyone, going into the role of junior Minister who seem to think they are still backbenchers, who do not even seem to have an appetite for doing anything with it, and who literally say " I do not have any power". They do have power and they need to have power.

This is what I want to hear when the Minister responds to this debate: that we will see junior Ministers coming in here and accepting good amendments from the Opposition when there is no reason not to; that we will see junior Ministers making decisions; that things junior Ministers start are not just pilot schemes but actually become a genuine shift, properly resourced, in national policy; and that we will have accountability for junior Ministers, but also that that does not become a screen for accountability for senior Ministers. If we have a situation on Commencement Matters or on debates where we are not getting the answers we need from a junior Minister and this House requests that we need the senior Minister to come in here and be accountable, the senior Minister should be made available to the Seanad for that reason. These are the questions I have about the Bill and supporting it and how it impacts. It would also send a very good signal if the Minister present were able to accept some of the amendments that are looking for practical information and practical accountability in these decisions in order that, the next time we are making it 30 Ministers or whatever else we will go to in the future, we actually are doing it on an evidence base of it having made a difference for the people of Ireland, for Parliament and for effective policy.