Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on rural development policy and actions with particular reference to the problem of population decline, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business until 5.30 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and on which Members may share time; No. 2, a procedural motion enabling Report and Final Stages of the Capital Acquisitions Tax Consolidation Bill 2002 to be taken today; No. 3, Capital Acquisitions Tax Consolidation Bill 2000 – Report and Final Stages to be taken at 5.30 p.m. and to conclude at 6.30 p.m.; No. 4, motion re earlier signature of Capital Acquisitions Tax Consolidation Bill 2002, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of No. 3; No. 5, statements on finance and related matters, to be taken at the conclusion of No. 4, or at 6.30 p.m. if the debate on No. 3 has not concluded earlier and to conclude by 8.30 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and on which Members may share time.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I am not opposed to the Order of Business. Will the Leader indicate the reason the Government proposes the House should not sit on Thursday of this week? If one reads Standing Orders for the Seanad, it is clear that meetings of the House should take place on Wednesdays and Thursdays and other days at the discretion of the House. It is breaking precedent that the House should meet on Tuesday and Wednesday and not on Thursday. I propose that the Leader initiate discussions between the Whips of all groups to arrive at a situation where we would debate important issues on Thursdays. If the Government has no business to present to the House on Thursday, I propose that the Opposition do so. There are 14 separate items on the Order Paper from colleagues on all sides of the House. If the Government cannot utilise the time available on Thursday, I propose that the Opposition be given the opportunity to debate these matters.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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The last point raised by Senator Brian Hayes could be dealt with in an early debate on the new programme, Sustaining Progress, which deals with housing. It also contains a proposal agreed by Government to introduce new legislation on rented accommodation and the rights of tenants. It would be helpful to have such a debate. We also need to look specifically at the needs of first-time buyers and at the possibility of giving tax relief to people saving for a deposit on a house since such relief is given to people saving for pensions, etc. We should consider having ad hoc savings accounts, for people saving for deposits on houses, which would be tax efficient and in respect of which people could obtain tax relief. I would like the Government to consider that.

Hundreds of thousands of people here and millions around the world marched at the weekend in respect of the Iraq situation. I am not calling for a debate on Iraq, because I have no doubt we will have more such debates. However, various reports, radio shows and talk-ins since then have all referred to how politicians can be made to listen. I would appreciate it if the Leader took the trouble to inform the radio stations and media outlets that politicians are listening, but that the Government is not. Many politicians marched last weekend and many are listening. It would be helpful if we could distinguish between politicians and the Government. I am sure the Leader would be happy to do that for us.

Another issue at which we must look is how prices impact on inflation and how they affect consumers. We need to look at that and at price control, or dare I mention the latter for fear of over-exciting too many people? I would like to hear the Government's view on this issue.

Derek McDowell (Labour)
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I wish to take up the issue raised by Senator O'Toole when referring to the demonstrations in Dublin and elsewhere last Saturday. I was astonished to hear the Taoiseach on radio this morning suggest, as only he could do, that people were demonstrating in favour of current Government policy. I would not presume to speak on behalf of everybody who was at the march in Dublin on Saturday, but I can certainly speak on behalf of some of them. I ask the Leader to make it crystal clear to the Taoiseach that the majority of people at the march on Saturday were not demonstrating in favour of current Government policy. The majority of people there are anxious that the Government take a distinctly different stance to the approach of sitting on the fence it has adopted in recent weeks. They are also anxious that we should support France, Germany, Belgium and the other neutral non-aligned countries in the European Union in saying to the United States that we do not believe the case for war is proven, that we do not believe it has been sufficiently proven that Saddam Hussein is in possession of weapons which present an immediate threat to his neighbours or those further afield and that this and a second UN resolution are prerequisites for war. I ask the Leader to convey this to the Taoiseach.

On a somewhat lighter note, I was interested and a little disturbed, as I am sure others were, to read the findings of an opinion poll published in today's edition of The Irish Times which suggest that up to 50% of young people continue to smoke. It appears most do so somewhat intolerantly of the wishes of others in that the bulk of smokers still feel quite entitled to go into pubs and restaurants and continue smoking, thereby inflicting passive smoking on others. As the debate on the issue has a long way to go, we could perform a service by inviting to the House the Minister for Health and Children and other interested parties to debate the report of the expert group on passive smoking to see whether we can move on the issue. It will be very difficult for the Minister to implement the ban without a greater measure of public support than appears to be available.

Cyprian Brady (Fianna Fail)
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I want to raise the important issue of the OECD report on the incidence of suicide in this country published over the weekend. The shocking statistics indicate that we have the second highest rate of suicide of 30 countries throughout the world and the highest rate among those under 25 years of age, of whom a huge proportion are young men. Will the Leader of the House arrange for the relevant Minister or Ministers – this issue is covered by a number of Departments – to come to this Chamber to discuss the issue?

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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I read in the newspapers this morning that a young boy of 11 or 12 years was let go by a judge yesterday because there was no place in which to detain him. Will the Leader invite to the House the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to debate this issue? The young boy was described as being "out of control". I do not know whose words those are but for a young boy of 11 or 12 years to be described as being "out of control" is a shame on the State which has brought him to this stage and not provided the facilities to enable him to lead a good life which any young child should be expected to lead. It is very serious that young children of 11 or 12 years are coming before judges because they are out of control. What has led to this situation is the fact that the Government is out of control.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader to invite to the House the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to debate the imposition of a €35 fee by the Shannon Fisheries Board for a yearly licence and an €18 charge for tourists for coarse fishing on the River Suck, the River Derryhippo, Stonehams Lake and adjoining tributaries in the area where I live. The Leader, who was practically born in the River Shannon, will be aware of the situation.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Like Moses.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader who has been fishing from a very young age will realise this will cause huge damage to the tourism industry and coarse fishing in the area. It is a very selective charge because it does not apply on those parts of the River Shannon under the ownership of the ESB. The bailiffs were out recently reminding tourists that they could not fish the rivers in question. I cannot use my boat to fish on the little river flowing behind my land unless I pay a fee to the Shannon Fisheries Board for doing nothing on the river.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Those are points for the debate.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Given that the Cathaoirleach is an avid fisherman, perhaps he will allow a debate on the issue.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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We need the River Shannon Council Bill.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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A recent report was published on the quality of drinking water. It is important to debate the issue in the House because the quality of water in 1,536 group water schemes monitored is less than satisfactory. It is important that we invite the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to the House to inform Senators of his plans in relation to the protection of public health. The State should provide pure and wholesome water for its citizens but it appears that 10% of the water consumed by them is contaminated. It is vital that we have a debate on this serious issue.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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Since 1996 meat and bonemeal have been quite rightly banned from animal feed which has to be rendered instead. The Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Walsh, has informed the beef industry that the subsidy paid to enable such material to be sent to Germany – there is no market for it here – will no longer apply from 1 March. This announcement has caused a great deal of concern in the industry and possible export markets. I ask the Leader of the House to ensure the Minister recognises the urgency of the issue, given that the deadline will be reached in about ten days. I gather that it may not be possible to render meat and bonemeal after that date. Even if it is, there may be no outlet for it. The material being sent to Germany for incineration at present will not be dealt with as there is no suitable incinerator in Ireland. I ask the Leader to draw the Minister's attention to this urgent matter.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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When is it envisaged that the heritage functions of Dúchas, within the Department of the Environment and Local Government, will be dealt with? The Government decided that the functions of Dúchas would be transferred to that Department but it is envisaged in a major review conducted by the Minister, Deputy Cullen, that built and natural heritage functions will be split. I assume that the built heritage will be the responsibility of the Office of Public Works, as was formerly the case, and that the natural heritage will be the responsibility of Dúchas. Will Dúchas remain part of the Department of the Environment and Local Government? Will the word "heritage" be included in the name of the Department? Will the Leader arrange for the Minister to come to the House to address these matters and enlighten Senators?

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Leader to invite to the House the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, who seems to be a popular man, as many Senators have asked that he attend. I would like a debate with him on the Government's policy, or lack thereof, on homelessness. Members of the Oireachtas do not have to go far from this House to see some of the many unfortunate people who are homeless, for whatever reason. I would like the Minister to explain the Government's policies for solving this problem which is of paramount importance.

Other Senators have mentioned the problems faced by first-time buyers. I am sure many Members have received telephone calls from distraught young people who have to pay an additional €1,500, or more, as a result of VAT increases. They have to pay a significant amount of money to put a roof over their heads, especially in the light of the loss of about €3,900 when the first-time buyer's grant was abolished.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator's remarks would be more suited to the debate he is seeking.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I ask for the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to come to the House to explain the Government's policies in relation to the matter.

Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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I would like the Leader of the House to ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come to the House to explain his crazy suggestion that local authorities should be allowed to determine the opening hours of pubs. This reckless and crazy idea does not address the serious problem of excess consumption of alcohol.

On a lighter note, I am sure the Leader, who is an avid football supporter, will join me in congratulating Brian Kerr, manager of this country's football team.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I do not know if this matter is appropriate to the Order of Business.

Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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It is quite appropriate—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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It is not.

Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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—especially in the light of the events of recent weeks.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I have ruled that it is not appropriate.

Eamon Scanlon (Fianna Fail)
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A constituent who is a farmer contacted me by telephone yesterday. A car pulled up beside him last Friday as he was doing drainage work on some land he bought recently. A man got out and read him his rights. The man told my constituent that if he wished to remain silent, that was fine. The individual in question was from the Dúchas office and the lands had apparently been designated as a special area of conservation. The purchaser of the lands was not aware of this, nor was his solicitor.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That would be an appropriate matter for the Adjournment.

Eamon Scanlon (Fianna Fail)
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I can raise it on the Adjournment, but to be fair to the gentleman concerned, it is a little underhanded to deal in that fashion with somebody who is trying to improve his land.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Is the Senator seeking a debate on the matter?

Eamon Scanlon (Fianna Fail)
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I would like to get some answers.

John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Feighan took the words out of my mouth. I agree with him regarding the proposal being considered by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to allow local authorities to decide closing times for licensed premises within their jurisdiction. The matter should be discussed in the House.

I agree with Senator Terry and others that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform should come to the House as soon as possible to discuss the issue of crime.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I agree with Senator Brian Hayes that the spending of €250,000 on photographs, including spending in excess of €45,000 by one Minister, is unjustifiable. People outside the House are telling us to get our act together. I do not know if the photographs are designed to make Ministers look better, to make double chins disappear or otherwise.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It would be hard to make them better, they look so good.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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If one listens to Joe Duffy's programme, it seems appropriate. However, I support Senator Brian Hayes with regard to this matter.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should just support him.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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In the context of economic considerations and the many people availing of the special savings and investment scheme who have lost their jobs, is it right to impose a penalty if they want to withdraw from that scheme at this point? Consideration should be given to situations where people can no longer sustain the investment over the period envisaged for the scheme. People should not be penalised if they want to opt out now and they should get back all the funds they have invested. There should be recognition of that within the scheme, rather than the imposition of a penalty if people decide to pull out at an early stage.

Tom Morrissey (Progressive Democrats)
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Like Eircom shareholders.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Senator Morrissey's contribution has been feeble to date and is feeble today.

John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Leader ask the Minister for Agriculture and Food to speak, as he has kindly done in the past, about small and medium size farms with regard to something that affects many people and the economic development of the country? I refer specifically to how, in the context of the Fischler proposals and CAP subsidies, families in this sector can maximise their net income. The House should debate the matter.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The Senator acknowledges that we were sold out.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I join Senator Scanlon in calling for the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to come to the House to discuss the issue of Dúchas. Difficulties arose at the weekend, when members of Dúchas were seen arguing with representatives of other archaeological bodies with regard to the Carrickmines interchange on the M50 motorway. Everyone realises that the latter is of vital importance.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is a matter for the debate.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I am asking for a debate on Dúchas and its role.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes, Leader of the Opposition, asked why the House is not sitting on Thursday next. A Government Department requested that the House take a particular Bill on Thursday and we agreed to do so. However, late last Thursday, the office of the Minister contacted us with a request that the Bill be deferred to a later date. While I am aware that Members are anxious to be in attendance on Thursdays, I am sorry the arrangement had to be cancelled. I take the Senator's point on sittings on Wednesdays and Thursdays and hope a cancellation like this will not arise in the future.

Senator Brian Hayes also asked about the expenditure of €250,000 on ministerial photographs. I suspect equal amounts were spent on ministerial photographs in the Administration headed by former Taoiseach, Deputy John Bruton. However, as the Freedom of Information Act was not in force at the time, we do not know how much was involved.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Even Patrick Pearse managed to have a photograph taken of his profile.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Only €8,000 was spent on the Leader's photograph.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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My photograph did not take long but then I am beautiful.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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It is a pity that level of expenditure did not satisfy her ministerial colleagues.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader, without interruption.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes also requested a debate on housing matters, including the cap imposed by the Minister for Social and Family Affairs on private rented accommodation. In my experience, owners of houses whose rental income was paid by the health boards continually increased their rents.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The Minister was not invited.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I am surprised the Senator did not attend. I saw Senators Feighan and Leyden in attendance and looking very holy.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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It was derisory.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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—to get a rebate.

Senator Feighan does not agree with local councils' powers in terms of setting licences. It is just an idea that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform put out for debate and he is not saying the proposals in this regard will happen. It is an issue worthy of debate if people wish to pursue it. Local councils are looking for extra powers and the setting of licences is a fine example of this.

Senator Scanlon spoke about the apparently heavy-handed person from Dúchas who berated a farmer over what he was doing on his own land. As the Cathaoirleach suggested, it would be appropriate to raise that issue on the Adjournment.

Senator John Phelan has left the Chamber, but I will speak to him again.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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It is a silent protest.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Feighan also referred to Brian Kerr, and I fully agree with him on the matter. I know the Cathaoirleach said it is out of order—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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It is out of order to offer congratulations to any sporting body.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I think Mr. Kerr was brilliant and his achievement is psychologically very important for the Irish team.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I also think the Irish rugby team did very well. The Opposition benches are full of rugby supporters. Did the Senators not say so?

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Whether it is soccer, rugby or Gaelic games, it is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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That is fair enough.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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There were no cutbacks then.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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The case of Deputy McDaid is well known. A sum of €45,000—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I do not think photographs—

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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One would think the Ministers were getting their photographs taken for OK! and HELLO! magazines.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader should be allowed continue. The quality and cost of photographs is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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They sanitise them.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I do not know if they can do that.

I have had queries about people who, because of a lack of income, cannot keep up their payments to their SSIAs and want to withdraw from the scheme. That issue could be raised this evening in respect of the Capital Acquisitions Tax Consolidation Bill 2002.

Senator Hanafin called on the Minister for Agriculture and Food to come before the House to discuss some of the Fischler proposals. We had the various Ministers last week—

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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We did not discuss the proposals and I support the Senator's call.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Allow the Leader to reply without interruption.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I will raise that matter with the Minister.

Senator Dooley wishes to join with Senator Scanlon in requesting a debate on Dúchas and the allegedly heavy-handed way the organisation is going about its business.

Order of Business agreed to.