Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Question 38: To ask the Minister for Education and Science if he plans to reintroduce third level fees in 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12288/09]

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The issue of the re-introduction of third level fees, to which the Deputy refers, should be viewed in the context of the wider funding of higher education. The Government is investing unprecedented levels of public funding in higher education. In 2008 some €2 billion was invested in our higher education sector. In contributing to the achievement of national policy goals for social and economic development, it can be anticipated that there will be continuing significant resource needs for the sector.

Ireland's higher education system currently has a relatively high dependence on the Exchequer as its principal source of revenue. It is appropriate, therefore, to raise questions around how future additional resource needs can be met and how our higher education institutions can be supported in their development ambitions through a widening of their non-Exchequer sources of income, including through a new form of student cost contribution. There are also equity grounds for arguing that those who benefit directly from higher education should be asked to contribute to the costs.

As the Deputy will be aware, I am currently finalising a review of policy options regarding the introduction of a form of student contribution. There are many complex and competing considerations, including costs, affordability and value for money for the taxpayer, which will be taken into account by the Government in considering the available options. It is my intention to bring proposals to Government in the near future regarding the available options, including the issue of implementation. As the Deputy can appreciate, I do not wish to pre-empt any decisions of Government on these matters.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister bringing proposals to the Cabinet next Tuesday? Can he confirm to the House whether it is his belief that a new funding scheme will be in place for the Autumn period of this year for new entrants to college? If a scheme is not in place, will those who will come into college next September or October as new entrants into the higher education system be part of the old funding system and not the new one? I do not want the Minister to comment on the clear, open trench warfare which currently exists between his Department and the Department of Finance. Can he put his preferred option on the record?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I have no specific date for brining the matter to Cabinet.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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It will not be next Tuesday.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I will bring it very shortly. I want to finalise a number of issues regarding the finality of the report and I will put it before my Cabinet colleagues as soon as it is completed. That is the answer to the Deputy's question.

Regarding this matter, the Cabinet asked me to furnish it with a report on student commitment, which will look at fees, loans, a combination of the two, means testing and all the other issues. I will bring all of those to Cabinet so it can take an informed decision on the third level sector into the future and what the student contribution should or should not be. It is a matter Government can decide. As part of the norm, there will of course be interaction between the Department of Finance and the Department of Education and Science. To say that there is open warfare is untrue.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is spinning it that way.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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No, I am not. I am not spinning it at all. In fact, I have not discussed the matter with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Lenihan at all yet, in any detail, so there could not be any open warfare between the two of us. My job is to provide the report for Government and then let it take a decision on when or if any fees or a combination of loans and fees should be introduced.

I have personal views and have expressed those quite openly. I believe there should be a contribution from the students and I am delighted that Deputy Hayes' party is in agreement. I thank him for his document which is helpful in looking at the overall issue.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I will send the Minister a bill for the final product.

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I am glad to see there is a divide between Deputy Hayes' party and the Labour Party.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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There are various views here on this matter, it is what is called democracy. Can the Minister put the position for new entrants to the systems from this autumn on the record? What is his considered view as to whether fees will be in place for new entrants to the system?

As a means of not making a dog's dinner of this, I ask the Minister and Cabinet not to make a decision on the funding issue until such time as we get the report of higher level review group which is looking into higher level education. I speak here in a constructive manner. We cannot decouple the issues of funding and reform. Both are part of the same response we must make collectively to improve quality and standards in higher education. While it is useful to have a debate at this stage, I ask the Minister to wait to make a decision until such time as we have the reform document.

On 11 August last the Minister said he would support the initiative of a forensic audit of third level spending before making any decision on funding, in terms of the university and institutes of technology sector. Is that still his position? He also said recently that he rejected the notion that senior academics and university heads should be getting more than Secretarys General in the various Departments. Is that still his view? I understand from the HEA that it has no intention of involving itself in cutting excessive pay which may well be awarded to university heads. What is the position of Government on that issue?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I will clarify the last section of the Deputy's contribution because what he said is not what I actually said. On the "Morning Ireland" radio programme I said that certain people in universities were receiving a salary which was on a par with Secretarys General and that they should follow the example set by Secretarys General in terms of pay. That is exactly what I said. There is also a separate issue whereby payments may have been made to certain individuals within the university sector which were not appropriate. The Higher Education Authority is in consultation with those universities regarding this matter. I hope that clarifies the issue.

Deputy Hayes asked about reform in general. I can understand where he is coming from. I have asked the strategy group to look at a whole range of issues. I looked at the structure of third level institutions to see if there might be any bureaucratic factors in play and how we might have a more efficient and effective operation within the sector itself. I am also aware that a value for money audit has almost been completed by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister sure about that?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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That is the information I received from members of the Committee of Public Accounts. As the Deputy is aware, I cannot interfere with the Comptroller and Auditor General, he is absolutely independent. However, my information is that an audit on value for money is near completion.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate what the Minister is saying. Is it his view that he could not move to make a decision on the wider issue of funding until such a time as he receives that audit?

Batt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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This is where I disagree fundamentally with Deputy Hayes. The State is currently investing €2 billion in the third level sector, an increase of 33.3% over the last four years. The Exchequer is paying some €350 million by way of fees to the third level sector. This is a fundamental policy issue which will have to be decided on by the Government. It is for this reason that I have separated this issue from those being dealt with by the strategy group. The Government must ultimately give direction according to its conclusions.