Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The purpose of the meeting today, as per the invite, is for the joint committee to meet representatives of the Commission for Communications Regulation, ComReg, to discuss the enforcement policy and operation of the enforcement powers of ComReg and to include recent enforcement proceedings. On behalf of the committee, I am pleased to welcome from ComReg, Ms Helen Dixon, commissioner, and Mr. Mervyn Hickey, legal adviser in the retail and consumer division. Before I read the note on privilege, Senator Dooley indicated he wants to make a brief contribution.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair. On a point of clarification, we sought Eir's attendance at the committee. The secretariat issued an invitation and afforded Eir an opportunity to come and discuss matters that are important and relevant to the commissioner being here. I note from correspondence that it has refused to attend. I have been on this committee for some time and we have had Eir here a number of times, usually in connection with the company's failure to perform to the standard required of it. We have had it here in the past to discuss its customer service failures. There is a matter being prosecuted in the courts. I will be brief.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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This meeting is about ComReg.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I accept that, but I am concerned that Eir has refused to attend. I want to know what more the Chair or the committee can do to force it to appear. There are certain powers that can be sought.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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We can discuss that at our next private meeting when we discuss correspondence, including the correspondence from Eir. My reading of the Eir statement was that it was not in a position to attend at the moment but that it would be willing to do so at a point in the future when various uncertainties are clarified. I hope that will be sooner rather than later. Unfortunately for us, Eir is not a semi-State body or public company. It is a private-----

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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It is a regulated entity, though.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It is a regulated entity but a private company. We will be discussing what our next steps are at our next private meeting. Eir has invited us to meet its representatives at one of the company's care centres-----

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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We should refuse that invitation. We can deal with that issue again.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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This meeting is about ComReg-----

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Yes. I will get to that but I want to make the point that there is a long-standing tradition here and, on advice, we do not stray into matters that are before the courts. We are all adults, most of the time. The letter Eir sent looking for blanket cover because it may decide to sue ComReg, as it has indicated in its letter, or may decide to appeal-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I am not sure it even said that.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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It did, actually. If the Leas-Chathaoirleach goes to the end of the letter, it states that Eir may seek redress at some other point. We can avoid all of that.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I am getting advice that we cannot discuss this matter any further at this point. I am sorry but I am not in a position to let the Senator continue. This meeting is about ComReg. While we are dealing with ComReg, we can discuss its operational activities with the various regulated entities under its remit, including Eir.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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We need to ratchet it up against Eir, quite frankly.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I take the Senator's point. It is well made and we can discuss it at our next private meeting.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I remind the witnesses and members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member participating via MS Teams to confirm that he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making a contribution.

I invite the commissioner, Ms Dixon, to make her opening statement.

Ms Helen Dixon:

Go raibh maith ag an Leas-Chathaoirleach. Ba mhaith liom i dtosach báire mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis an gcomhchoiste as an gcuireadh chun cainte inniu. Is coimisinéir mé leis an gCoimisiún um Rialáil Cumarsáide. I thank the Vice-Chairman, and on behalf of ComReg, we are happy to appear before the committee to discuss enforcement policy and operation of the enforcement powers of ComReg, including recent enforcement proceedings against Eir. I have been a commissioner with ComReg since 20 February 2024. Prior to joining ComReg, I was the Data Protection Commissioner for almost a decade. I am joined by my colleague Mr. Mervyn Hickey, who heads up the legal function of the customer services division in ComReg.

As members are aware, ComReg is the national regulatory authority for electronic and postal communications. The functions of ComReg are wide-ranging and varied. The focus of this statement, however, is on ComReg’s enforcement functions, in particular those concerning end users of electronic communications services.

ComReg is statutorily obliged to monitor and ensure compliance by regulated entities with their legal obligations. Our statutory objectives in the exercise of our functions include promoting competition and protecting the interests of users. ComReg seeks to ensure a high level of protection for end users in their dealings with suppliers. This takes many forms. In particular, we focus on ensuring that users pay only the prices they agree with their provider, that they are not over-billed, that they receive the quality of service to which they are legally entitled, that if something goes wrong they can access consumer care through their provider and, if necessary, through ComReg, and that redress is available to them. ComReg also focuses on promoting competition to ensure users derive benefits in terms of choice. An example of this is ensuring that users can easily switch provider. We uphold end-user rights and ComReg seeks overall to ensure that end users can choose and use their phone and broadband services with confidence.

I will outline our approach to enforcement. I propose to deal with this topic by discussing ComReg’s enforcement policy, the operation of ComReg’s enforcement powers and recent enforcement proceedings against Eir. In terms of policy, ComReg is required to perform the functions conferred on it by statute and is independent in the exercise of those functions. As the designated national regulatory authority, we enforce a broad range of end-user protection provisions relating to users of electronic communications services. These include the end-user provisions of the European Union regulations of 2022, the Consumer Protection Act 2007, the Consumer Rights Act 2022, protections afforded under the Communications Regulation Act 2002 to 2023, the ePrivacy regulations, premium rate services legislation, and conditions attached to general authorisations.

ComReg has set out its approach to enforcement activities in its strategy statement. Our enforcement strategy is based on four principles, namely, inculcating a culture of compliance in the entities we regulate; actively monitoring for compliance; taking targeted enforcement actions where compliance is not achieved; and ensuring there are effective deterrents.

Given the importance of the electronic communications sector to our economy and society, ComReg has at any point in time a range of compliance monitoring activities and enforcement actions in train. Litigation can span a range of end-user issues but can also relate to other diverse matters such as access to physical infrastructure and compliance with radio spectrum obligations.

Today, we will focus on end-user and consumer-related matters. ComReg regularly investigates complaints and emerging trends which may arise from consumer contacts to our complaints line and website. For example, if ComReg receives multiple contacts on an issue relating to a particular entity, we will examine and analyse such a trend to see if it warrants an in-depth investigation. In 2023, ComReg consumer care received reports of 11,740 issues related to providers, of which 1,565 were classified as formal complaints. ComReg may also open investigations to monitor and assess compliance at our own volition.

Regulatory breaches harm consumers, firms, industry and competition generally. Effective enforcement actions and sanctions ensure that there is a genuine deterrent, both to the party being penalised and to other regulated entities in the market.

In terms of the operation of our powers, ComReg has both civil and criminal enforcement powers, which it uses to enforce obligations and uphold end-user rights. ComReg’s civil enforcement powers involve it pursuing actions before the courts or adjudicators, and these are separate to private rights of action that customers may bring themselves. ComReg is also empowered to initiate summary prosecutions of offences under various enactments.

In the end-user and consumer context, ComReg has been taking District Court prosecutions against providers, for breaches of obligations and end-user rights since 2015. In that time, 188 criminal convictions have been recorded and fines totalling €242,400 have been imposed.

These summary proceedings have been taken against all the major providers and have been based, in the main, on consumer complaints received.

In terms of the exercise of ComReg’s civil enforcement powers, as the committee will appreciate, some cases are settled between the parties before they arrive in the High Court. Penalties totalling €3.94 million have been paid as part of settlements and providers have arranged for refunds to consumers totalling €10.4 million since 2014. Such settlements have been arrived at with all the major providers and cover the range of end-user concerns. ComReg is, at present, pursuing one consumer case in the High Court concerning Virgin Media’s procedures for contract termination in the context of switching provider. This case was heard in October 2023 and judgment is awaited.

Some service providers like to resolve matters promptly and proactively following ComReg intervention and in that category, since 2014, provision has been made by providers for refunds totalling €11.7 million in addition to other remedial measures that have been taken. All of our cases and outcomes are published as information notices on our websites. These publications serve to further underscore ComReg’s enforcement priorities providing additional transparency for both end users and service providers.

I turn to recent enforcement proceedings against Eir. On 15 April 2024, the Dublin District Court heard ten prosecutions brought by ComReg against Eircom Limited, relating to failures by Eircom to comply with obligations concerning its complaints handling processes. In each case, there was a failure by Eircom to provide a complaint acknowledgment that included a complaint reference number to customers within two working days, and in some cases there were further failures, either to provide a complaint response within the maximum timeframe of ten working days, or to communicate to customers an email address to progress their complaint in addition to other forms of contact if the complaint remained unresolved after ten working days. The prosecutions were brought under regulation No. 27 of the 2011 regulations. These were the relevant regulations in force at the time of the breaches. Eircom pleaded guilty to 12 counts on ten summonses before the court. Judge Anthony Halpin imposed criminal convictions on ten counts and took into consideration the other two counts in ordering Eircom to pay a total of €7,500 in fines. Eircom also contributed to ComReg’s costs, as agreed between the parties.

ComReg’s compliance monitoring and enforcement activities are key aspects of our role and hugely important in the context of upholding end-user rights. All providers are subject to this activity. The action we take reflects our strategy but will also be dictated by the circumstances of a particular case. ComReg actively monitors the market for non-compliance and takes action against service providers using its various powers as appropriate. Details of all the actions we have concluded are on the ComReg website. I thank the committee for the opportunity to provide this opening statement and we look forward to assisting with questions.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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We have a speaking roster. Senator Dooley will take Deputy O'Connor's slot. Deputy Alan Farrell will take Senator Doherty's slot, and Deputy Martin Kenny will take Deputy O'Rourke's slot.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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Senator Doherty sends her apologies.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Farrell can have her slot, which is a lot earlier in the line than his.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the commissioner, Ms Dixon. We are delighted to have her before the committee on this occasion. I recognise and thank her for the work she did as Data Protection Commissioner. She comes to this new role with a considerable amount of experience as a public servant, and we look forward to working with her, as the Oireachtas did in her previous role. From Ms Dixon's short time with ComReg I want to understand if she believes the powers and sanctions available to her are adequate. From the perspective of the Oireachtas, is there anything we should be looking at in terms of legislative change or increasing fines? She made reference to Eir's €7,500 fine. There may be some multiples of that per charge and it covered ComReg's costs. It seems a relatively small amount of money. I do not want to stray into how the judge interpreted the case because that is not our role. However, are the sanctions available adequate to ensure these large companies are brought to heel when they transgress clearly the lines set? That is my first question. I am asking for any broad analysis she may have.

Second, a number of issues have arisen recently and have been raised with me relating to cellphone providers and the service they provide. They widely advertise the extent of their coverage and oftentimes they reference, with a map of Ireland, percentages of what they cover. When you drill below it, it is population rather than geographic coverage even though the particular advertisement might give the impression that it is the island of Ireland. Apart from that, there is something else I and others have noted and reflected on. For those of us who traverse rural parts of the country there seems to be a reduction and a poorer quality of coverage. I have raised this with a number of the providers and the standard answer is that it must be the handset. In many cases the handsets have not changed. I know they are not like the older phones with the aerials and so on, but over the past six months there has been a considerable increase in the level of dropped calls and poor coverage. The belief that moving towards 5G meant that we would have better data coverage does not seem to stack up once you move outside the large urban areas. Any thoughts or insight on that would be useful.

Ms Helen Dixon:

I thank Senator Dooley for his good wishes. I also look forward to working with this committee. I turn to the question on adequate enforcement powers. As I reflected in my opening statement, it is clear that over the past ten or 11 years, ComReg has been an active enforcer of consumer issues and has dynamically used the powers it has available. This area is of course a constantly moving target in terms of the issues that arise for consumers and end users. You can see that reflected in the role of the EU legislator and the legislator here, particularly in terms of the European economic communications code, which brought in a lot of new provisions and obligations for providers and powers for regulators to tackle those issues. We have acquired a lot of new powers and obligations recently. Some of them are powers and obligations we now have to empower end users and consumers themselves. I think of things like the recent publication of our broadband checker, which allows users to look at what broadband provision is available in their area. The mobile coverage map, which the Senator has just referenced, drills into what the coverage by providers is in different locations.

We also have a number of new powers under the 2023 Act to compel providers to provide information about complaints lodged with them in a preceding six-month period. We have started to use those powers. We have a first tranche of data. This will provide us with insights in how we, as a regulator, target future actions. We also have new powers to require operators to provide a customer charter to end users. We have consulted on that customer charter and are now in the process of finalising our response to the consultation and issuing a decision. The idea of that customer charter is that, under certain headings - billing, switching and customer service contact - we create comparability for users and try to generate a market where the providers are now competing on customer service instead of a lowest common denominator approach. There are lots of new powers and we are taking lots of new actions that over time will stem some of the complaints and the need for later enforcement.

The particular case I mentioned in my opening statement was the recent prosecution of Eir in the District Court, which was of course pursued with the powers we had at the time. Now that the 2023 Act is in place and the Minister has appointed adjudicators under Part 5 of that Act, were the same case to arise in future we would have an option to have an authorised officer of ComReg refer suspected non-compliance in a case of that type to an independent panel of adjudicators.

They have a range of powers, including the ability to impose administrative fines of €5 million or 10% of turnover, whichever is the greater. We have lots of new powers that we need to work through and implement. In addition, the European legislator is reviewing the code that was just implemented in the 2022 regulations and the 2023 Act in Ireland so, clearly, there is a desire to further drill into some of these consumer issues. We can look and see what the impact has been in a year.

On the cellphone issue, our advice is for consumers and end users to look at that coverage map and see if there is a difference in the mast positioning by the different providers to see if switching service provider might yield a better outcome. That can also be viewed on the site viewer website. In terms of the most recent auction in 2022 where ComReg licensed new spectrum, what we saw in that for the first time in terms of the conditions we licensed under is that as well as population coverage requirements in three, five and seven years in terms of the obligations on those that have been granted the licences, the operators are now tied to geographic commitments in respect of business parks and motorways that may not directly cut across whatever location the Senator was referring to. We have not received extensive complaints on point of what the Senator raised with us today. We have one or two. In one case, it turned out that it was a faulty mast while in another case, it was a case of there not being a mast nearby and the service was never going to be good. We are happy to bring it back to our market framework team and liaise further with the Senator if we have anything useful to share.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Could Ms Dixon address the scale of the sanctions and the fines? Does she think they are adequate to meet the challenge and effectively force operators to obey?

Ms Helen Dixon:

In terms of the new administrative fines involving €5 million or 10% of turnover, 10% of turnover is a big bite for a company with a turnover of approximately €1.2 billion last year. Clearly, independent adjudicators will decide it rather than ComReg but there is the potential for a very significant fine and the types of fines we have not seen in this sector heretofore.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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That is for another forum.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Deputy Alan Farrell to the committee. He is our newest member who arrived today in place of the new Minister of State, Deputy Dillon.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach and welcome the witnesses. I think it is Ms Dixon's first appearance before the committee in the same way as it is mine so hopefully, we will have plenty of very positive encounters as we have had in the past in various other committees on which I have served. I wish her the very best in her new role. I believe she was appointed in February. I had the opportunity to read through all the information that was provided to me but I only got the opportunity to do so this morning so rather than get into the minutiae of some of the issues that she raised in her opening statement, I will ask questions along the line of Senator Dooley's questions concerning her new powers within the authority and enforcement issues.

One of the big questions that any authority, particularly one that is about 20 years old, faces when given new authority is the question of whether it has the relevant competencies and-or the relevant corporate governance structures. This is always important when one is looking in as this committee is as the committee with responsibility for ComReg's authority. Could Ms Dixon spend some time providing answers to that? What has happened since the authority was provided with those new powers in June 2023?

What is her role in the promotion of competition in the market? The Irish consumer is relatively well served in terms of service regarding the capacity of the mobile phone network, in particular, for people to be able to communicate but I cannot help but feel that we do not have sufficient competition in the mobile telecommunications market. That is something that always concerns me because more competition tends to lead to improved services and lower prices. Could Ms Dixon touch upon that in her response?

My next question concerns an interpretation of data protection and there is no better person to ask than her. I will not name it because it is not relevant but my mobile phone operator has a peculiar take on advertisement messages versus services messages. They are lumped in together. I was in a country that ended in "stan" - I cannot remember which one - on behalf of the Oireachtas ten years ago. The country did not have a reciprocal arrangement with our domestic provider. Even though I was on pretty much the top package with loads of minutes to spend all over the world as I was expected to travel with this particular international body, I did not get a text message telling me that this was my rate while I was abroad. I did not get that message that people get when they turn on their phones at the airport. I did not think much of it because I had not been getting it for years. The next thing was that about two or three hours into my election observation mission, I got a text message telling me that I had consumed €50 in credit. I was confused because I am a bill payer. I thought it was peculiar so I rang Vodafone - I said the name but I did not mean to and I am very happy with the company otherwise - got a call back and established that these annoying advertisements it was sending me by text message that I had opted out from were linked to its service messages, including that data notice that customers get, warnings and the roaming data. Does ComReg have a function in this area? Is this something that is still in existence with the organisation? I still get the advertisements but I also get the notification of roaming when I happen to travel abroad, for example, to the UK, which is now external.

My next question concerns enforcement and the fact that ComReg now has the regulatory authority to enforce operations rather than wait on matters to be determined by the courts. Similar to what Senator Dooley had to say, is there a sufficiently robust arrangement in domestic and European law for ComReg to pursue that? Does Ms Dixon feel that ComReg has sufficient resources to hire the relevant individuals? I go back to my first point about appropriate staffing and governance structures. Does ComReg have the capacity to do that? Has its recruitment of those individuals been successful since those new powers were given to it in June 2023? I appreciate how difficult it is for bodies to recruit at the moment.

Ms Helen Dixon:

That is an interesting question in terms of corporate governance structures around the new powers we have acquired because this is something of a departure for ComReg. While we have had these long-standing powers, civil and criminal, the new administrative power we have involves ComReg investigating issues through an authorised officer and where there is suspicion of non-compliance, making a referral report to a panel of adjudicators that is now completely independent of us, notwithstanding the fact that it was nominated by us and appointed by the Minister with the intention under the legislation and the legal advice that it must operate completely independently. We are looking extensively as we prepare to stand up this new structure at the arrangements that will need to be in place.

There will need to be a completely separate IT system to be used by the independent adjudicators. There will be no communication between ComReg and those independent adjudicators. A chief adjudicator, who will be appointed, will convene the panel as necessary to hear a case where a referral report has been made from ComReg. We have extensive legal advice on hand regarding how we are setting up the arrangements. We are satisfied we can set up that adjudication function such that it will have the requisite level of demonstrable independence. It will be a new departure for us, however, and we will have to step through the first case to establish how it works in actual fact.

On the promotion of competition, as the Deputy will be aware, this is largely a deregulated market in terms of the mobile phone operators. As well as the primary operators, however, there are quite a number of virtual operators now and we can see there is a spread of users and consumers spread among all the operators in Ireland. If there are any specific issues of manifestations of the lack of competition-----

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry for cutting across Ms Dixon, but I was getting at the issue of dominance. There is a clear dominant operator in the Irish market. I do not think I would be alone in saying that this is not necessarily a good thing.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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That is particularly true for landlines.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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Among others, yes.

Ms Helen Dixon:

The phone market, as I said, is deregulated. It was deregulated at EU level. It would be necessary for Ireland to suggest, based on a three-step test, that there was clear evidence that this was a market which did need to be regulated. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to deal with the Deputy offline and collect information from him on the specifics of what he is identifying.

In respect of the potential data protection issue, it seems very unusual that there could be any confusion between advertisement messages and service messages-----

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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One would have thought.

Ms Helen Dixon:

Yes, clearly advertisement messages fall squarely under direct marketing that is prohibited without the express consent of the user, but that should not deny a user to necessary service messages, and that would appear to be incorrect. The prosecution of advertisement messages where they are delivered without the consent of the user was a function of my previous role, and we prosecuted cases every year. As for ComReg's function here, I think we do have a function in that users should receive alerts in respect of roaming, so we are very happy to take this away and examine it. Is it still the case today or is it historical?

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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No, it is not the case anymore, but I am not entirely sure how the matter was resolved. It just stopped happening. When I checked my privacy settings, there was no issue I could determine.

Mr. Mervyn Hickey:

On that point, there is a long-standing EU roaming regulation - I think everybody will be familiar with the notifications we receive when we go abroad – where someone is in another jurisdiction and is subject to different rates, with consumption limits and warnings about various issues. Its application is EU wide, along with in Liechtenstein, Norway and Iceland, but if you are outside that area, your provider should still send you messages to indicate what your price will be. That should be done before you are bound, but it may be a case of familiarising yourself with those terms and conditions if you are outside that area.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for attending. I apologise for missing the start of the meeting. I was in the Dáil. On the enforcement actions taken by ComReg and, specifically, the code of practice for individual companies, how useful is the code of practice as a measure to ensure standards and performance? The number of cases that have been taken is small. More widely, could improvements be made to the oversight ComReg has as a regulator?

Ms Helen Dixon:

The code of practice is very useful and, as the current case we are discussing illustrates, while the issues seem simple in one sense, there is the ability to have a complaint acknowledged, a unique reference number provided and commitments for what should happen within two days and ten days. The case we took illustrates that even those basic requirements are not met in every case. The Deputy stated a small number of cases have been taken but what we identified in this case, having listened to the phone calls of users who tried to interact with the operator, was that the issues were probably more widespread in terms of the circumstances that arose. The code of practice is useful. It is very basic and provides, at a minimum, a floor for what users should be guaranteed.

On broader functions, I mentioned earlier that the 2022 regulations and the 2023 Act to which we are now subject provide us with a range of new powers and obligations, and we think some of these, as we begin to roll them out and get traction with them, are likely to improve the overall levels of customer service. I mentioned, in particular, our ability now to compel the details of complaints providers have received in the prior six-month period. We have got the first tranche of information and are gathering insights from that. Again, we have gone out to consultation on the customer charter provisions in the 2023 Act and we want to ensure all providers will implement a customer charter that will create a type of market, and a good form of competition, relating to quality customer service standards.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Does ComReg have a role in the development of the customer charter or the code of practice? I would appreciate a sense of how it is developed.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I do not mean to cut across the Deputy, but I welcome to the Public Gallery our former Chairman and now Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, who is here with his sister. He has gone on to great things since he left here. In fact, his latest replacement, Deputy Farrell, has just arrived today, replacing Deputy Dillon, who has moved on to be a Minister of State. If you happen to be a Fine Gael Chair of this committee, therefore, or even a Fine Gael member of this committee, you seem to do quite well out of it. I say "Well done" to them. I am sure it is thoroughly deserved. The Minister of State is very welcome back, as is his sister.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Of course, he was not replaced. A man of that talent is never replaced.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I think the term is "irreplaceable", but that is different. In any event, we will go back to doing business. I hope the Minister of State, his sister and their friends will enjoy their day in Leinster House.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, it is very hard to replace the former Chairman.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I will walk out now if the Deputy wants.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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On the process of developing the code of practice and the customer charter, how much involvement does the regulator have to ensure the system is fit for purpose and ultimately serves the end user?

Ms Helen Dixon:

We have very direct and comprehensive involvement in both these initiatives. There is a decision, 04/17, that provides ComReg an imprimatur in respect of the requirements on the code of practice and, in fact, the prosecution we were discussing earlier related to breaches of that decision of ComReg.

In respect of the newer provisions, the customer charter, we went out with an extensive consultation document last year, to which providers responded with significant, detailed and lengthy submissions, regarding our proposals about the customer charter, citing areas where they were in agreement with our proposals and other areas they thought we might need to look at again. We are working through the detailed submissions we have received on our own proposed customer charter format and substance, and we will respond to that consultation publicly and issue a decision relatively soon prescribing what must be in the customer charter and by what date.

We are very active. We are the main mover in trying to ensure that there is standardisation and in creating comparability, which is what we want for end users and consumers.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise if this question was asked previously, but what is ComReg's role in the context of competition within the market? Is that for ComReg or for the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC? Where does the division of responsibility lie and how do the two agencies interact if it is a case of one, or other, or both?

Ms Helen Dixon:

ComReg is very definitely responsible for competition, but, of course, it depends on the market. We started off with 18 regulated markets in the EU; it is now down to three. Earlier, we talked about the mobile market. That is now largely deregulated. We try to ensure that there is competition by making sure there are no unnecessary barriers to access. We have seen the arrival of several virtual mobile network operators in recent years, demonstrating that there is a market in which players can compete. As I mentioned to Deputy Farrell, if there are particular features that are identified and that suggest an absence of competition in the mobile market, then the committee might engage with us so we can have a look at them.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy O'Rourke. The next speaking slot is mine. I want to touch on a few general aspects of ComReg. While everyone probably knows it exists many us probably do not know a great deal about what it does with regard to staff and all the different regulated entities it has. It is my understanding that it covers land line, mobile, broadband, broadcasting and postal services. I am not sure if I have left out anything.

Ms Helen Dixon:

Radio spectrum.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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How many staff operate ComReg?

Ms Helen Dixon:

We have 157 staff. We have just recently received sanction for an additional 55 staff, which will allow us give full effect to the powers we discussed earlier. We have now been assigned by the Government additional functions that will come on stream later this year. We will be putting in a request for sanction for additional staff and skills in order to deliver on those functions. ComReg is divided into a number of regulatory divisions. There is a market framework division, which deals with radio spectrum issues. It was the division that led on the running of the auction in 2022 to license new spectrum.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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People may think of radio spectrum as radio stations but it is much more than that.

Ms Helen Dixon:

It is a team that, on the one hand, runs auctions and monitors for interference with any masts that are licensed. It also has a product safety role regarding electromagnetic equipment.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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When we refer to radio spectrum in that context, is this the RTÉ mast on top of Three Rock Mountain kind of radio waves or is it phone masts?

Ms Helen Dixon:

It is all of the above, broadcast and radio masts.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Is ComReg doing the radio licences for local radio stations? That is not you guys?

Ms Helen Dixon:

No, it is the electromagnetic licensing. We also have a wholesale division. Wholesale local access is a regulated market. The division conducts market reviews every five years in examining whether there is an operator that may have significant market power, SMP.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Is that for the benefit of the virtual operators?

Ms Helen Dixon:

This would be wholesale local access for fibre broadband. Under the recent market review conducted by ComReg, which was not objected to by the EU Commission, ComReg found that Eir has SMP, so it is subject to extensive ex ante regulation for its open air wholesale supply. The wholesale division also looks at issues of pricing relating to the SMP operator. We have a retail division that is largely concerned with the issues we have been discussing today. We have a corporate services division and an economics and strategy division.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Is there an element of enforcement within each of those sections, except corporate services?

Ms Helen Dixon:

Within the regulatory sections, there is a very strong element of enforcement. The wholesale division is a very active enforcer and there is a good deal of live litigation in play currently. The consumer team, as we discussed, is active. Product safety and radio licensing general authorisations have a significant level of compliance and enforcement activity.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The ComReg enforcement strategy is based on four principles. Obviously, the culture of compliance has to the best of all in that the people just do what they are supposed to do. They comply with the codes of conduct, and they do not stray from them. People can access the complaints system and get them dealt with quickly. Then there is active monitoring, targeted enforcement and effective deterrents. What is involved in the active monitoring?

Ms Helen Dixon:

With the consumer division, we are on relying complaints and issues that are lodged with ComReg-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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So ComReg is not really going out looking for stuff: it is waiting for it to come in.

Ms Helen Dixon:

We do that as well. The complaints are a significant source of intelligence for us in identifying trends. We also deploy some mystery shopping by calling around to the different operators and providers. We do active listening by looking on social media and fora to see what kinds of issues the public may be raising. In the consumer area, we tend to have very live intelligence on the issues that are concerning end users and consumers. With the wholesale area we have access seekers that are raising issues with ComReg on an ongoing basis in relation to SMP operators. This is one way by which we come by issues.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I suppose by definition this involves bigger money.

Ms Helen Dixon:

That is much bigger money. It is a difficult area of regulation. Where there is an SMP operator we have access to regulated or separated accounts, which we examine for pricing and cost orientation. This may lead us down a route of making inquiries with the SMP operator. We have a variety of means, depending on the division, of actively monitoring for compliance.

With physical infrastructure access we operate fora in which all of the access seekers and the SMP the operator participate. On an ongoing basis, we are hearing exactly what issues are arising in that space. There are many ongoing issues.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Where the consumer has a complaint with Eir, Three or whichever operator, who should they go to? Should they go to their operator first or should they go to you guys first, or would Ms Dixon prefer if they did not go to ComReg because if they did not go to you they can get it resolved with their operator?

Ms Helen Dixon:

We prefer that the consumer gets the issue sorted and the best way of doing that is to contact the provider or operator that has the direct capability to resolve it. Consumers will first go to their operator - as we talked about earlier - and under the code of practice they are entitled to an acknowledgement, an ID number and a means to get a final response on the issue.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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That is two days and ten days.

Ms Helen Dixon:

Yes, two days and ten days. If they do not get a response or if they are not satisfied, ComReg is more than pleased that they would bring the matter to our attention. Then we can take appropriate action and intervene on their behalf.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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There are so many operators and so many different tariffs that I do not know if even ComReg knows how many mobile phone tariffs there are. There are probably hundreds and hundreds, like health insurance, and people are probably more likely to move house before they move from their phone operator because it is probably not enough to justify doing it. Does ComReg have an idea of the percentage of people who switch every year from one phone company to another? Equally, how easy is it for people to access the information on comparing one operator with another or one tariff with another? There are international roaming fees, there are data costs, and there are calls and text costs. Most people are probably paying more than they need to on the basis that there are newer products out there. The gas companies must write to customers every so often and tell them they are on such and such a tariff.

I am not aware that mobile phone or landline companies have to do that. Please touch on that issue.

Ms Helen Dixon:

I am sorry I do not have to hand the percentage of switchers. There are some and I will come back to the Vice Chair on that. It is an interesting question. There have been some improvements in the provision of information to users on contracts, in that they are now entitled, as Mr. Hickey has confirmed, to a best tariff statement after 12 months and they are entitled to information on how they may terminate their contract every 12 months.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Everyone should be getting a statement.

Ms Helen Dixon:

Everyone.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Does that apply to a mobile phone, landline or any service? I am not sure I get a statement but maybe I do.

Mr. Mervyn Hickey:

The provision has only been in since June of last year. If one already has a contract and it is automatically extended, perhaps at the end of a 12-month cycle, one should receive best tariff advice, under the regulations, and notice should be given to customers-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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What if a customer happens to be out of tariff? Let us say a customer is just on a tariff but there is no obligation. One could switch in the morning but does not. Is there a letter issued in that case?

Mr. Mervyn Hickey:

If the contract has run over then the person should already have received that. Then, when the contract 12-month period, for example, is at an end, one can switch with no more than one month's notice. People should not be subject to early termination fees or anything like that. One just says, "I want to switch", and that is the maximum a person must give plus he or she is free to shop around.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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A lot of people are probably out of tariff and have not bothered. Perhaps they are out of tariff so long that the provisions about getting letters are after these people are out of tariff. Perhaps this matter deserves more publicity so as to let people know. Does ComReg have a page on its website that highlights all of the mobile phone companies and what they do? Perhaps there are consumer websites that publicise such details.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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There is a related question that is pertinent on foot of what has been mentioned. There are lot of websites that do so.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It is the Deputy's first day, so I will let him comment.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate the Leas-Chathaoirleach's discretion. Does ComReg have a function in the cross-comparison of the Irish market with other near and relevant jurisdictions in terms of mobile phone or landline tariffs, and packages?

Ms Helen Dixon:

We do not directly have a function. We are members of the Body of European Regulators for Electronic Communications, BEREC, so we are required to take utmost account of guidelines and opinions produced by BEREC. We do not have a direct role in tariffs. On an ongoing basis we look at what is happening in other jurisdictions, including what is happening in Ofcom's jurisdiction and whether Ireland may be out of kilter in any way. What we tend to see is that the issues and challenges are common across many jurisdictions, notwithstanding that some of the providers and operators are national in operation only. The issues still somehow appear to be in common.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Has ComReg a role to play in consumer awareness of different tariffs?

Ms Helen Dixon:

We do. We have published a compare tool for mobile phone operators. It is an independent tool clearly published by ourselves, the independent regulator. I mentioned the broadband checker earlier. We intend that it will also, in a future iteration this year, provide information that will allow comparison of tariffs.

The issue that has been raised is an active and live one. ComReg did investigate a number of different providers last year in respect of failure to provide in an accessible and easy-to-understand format information on tariffs, or even to provide it at all. There is an issue and it is one that is receiving significant action on our part but also significant focus in terms of clarifying obligations.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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My last point refers to a landline provider. People can probably work out which it is but we are not going to name it. The provider's staff rings people and says, "We want to update your package", to which people reply, "I would like you to email me that detail", which elicits the response, "I can sign you up now but I cannot email you the detail". In that instance, I replied, "I do not make any decision without seeing exactly what I am getting, and the terms and conditions," and the response I got was, "No, we cannot. We are not in a position to give you that information." I do not think it was a scam call. I have no doubt that the provider knew enough about my contract, and could tell what tariff I was on and knew all the various things. I do not think that a provider can ring up customers and say to people that they want customers to switch online. I was told that I would get fibre, the service will not use copper anymore, that the signal quality and landline calls will be better, plus the price would remain the same or be a tiny bit less. I replied, "Yes, but I want to see the detail. I want to see what I am getting now and what I will get, which is reasonable." However, my provider was unable to provide information and that call only occurred in the last two or three weeks. People should get information before they are asked to switch. Let us bear in mind that many younger people probably do not have a landline in their home and many older people rely on landlines. Therefore, a lot of the customers providers deal with are older people and may not be as with it when it comes to consumer terms. I have no wish to denigrate older people by saying that but they may not be as focused on these things as somebody watching their budget a bit more. It is not okay that providers offer things but say to people that they must sign up without any detail being as to what they will get, what the improvements are, what the contract is and whether there are downsides. If a provider is going to ask customers to change to a new contract, then it should be willing to give the details in writing.

Mr. Mervyn Hickey:

Since last year, again with the new suite of legislative changes, there is a right to get a contract summary before a person is bound by a contract for that very purpose so that one can see the key elements of the contract and compare them with others.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The sales agent I mentioned did not know anything about that.

Mr. Mervyn Hickey:

That is certainly the obligation since June of last year.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I will let our guests know the name of the operator later, and ComReg can take this matter up with it. On behalf of all of us, I thank ComReg for all that it does. The next contributor is Senator Craughwell.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I am one of the elderly people the Leas-Chathaoirleach was talked about.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is not really that elderly but a moot point.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I come from an era when people used a telephone. Our guests probably do not remember that in order to make a call one had to go into a phone box and when somebody stood close to the phone box one had to open the door and say to the person, "Do you mind? I am on a call." As a result, people would back away. Now, people who are on mobile phones tell the dear, sweet secrets of their lives as they are sat beside you on a Luas.

The mobile phone has been the greatest and worst invention of all time. I will mention one of the things that deeply concerns me, and I do not know how ComReg can examine this matter but I would like it to try. By the way, I appreciate what the ComReg delegation has done today and it has been very refreshing to hear their answers. Some years ago I was president of the Teachers Union of Ireland and the week I took over two 11-year-old girls took their own lives. One of them took her life on a Friday night and the following one was her twin sister, who took her life four or five days later. Mobile phones were the cause of it. It was the standard online bullying or whatever. The reason I raise this matter is as follows. I visited the school and the school was in disarray. Every single evening the principal of the school sat in his car between 7 o'clock and 11 o'clock at night while members of staff would ring him and say such and such is on this social media channel now or someone else was on another one. Eventually the situation crowded in on him. He made the point to me, and I think it is one we must find a way around, that in the evening parents take their children home, prepare them for bed, get them to say their prayers or whatever but ensure their children follow a night-time routine that includes brushing their teeth before they get into their beds. However, parents allow their children to bring their mobile phones to bed and they allow them to be switched on. We all know that people can access anything on a mobile phone now but, worse still, people can be accessed on their mobile phone. The principal made the point to me that he is responsible for children in this school from 8.30 a.m. until 4.30 p.m. but after that the responsibility rests with somebody else.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I do not want to detract from the contribution by the Senator but I am not sure of the relevancy of his comment. The Senator has made a valid point but I am not sure it is valid in respect of this topic.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Can ComReg do something in respect of suppliers? Let us say I am a parent who is willing to give my child a mobile phone. Can I, as the parent, say to the supplier that the phone must be dead from 7 o'clock in the evening until 8.30 a.m. the following morning? Should I be able to do that?

Ms Helen Dixon:

I do not think there is any intervention that ComReg could make in that regard. I acknowledge the Senator has raised a very serious issue which concerns a number of agencies and policy areas across the State. In particular, the issue falls within the remit of Coimisiún na Meán in terms of the regulation of content.

An issue with regard to the overarching point, which is common across a lot of areas of policy, is the age verification of children online. Part of the problem is that we do not know, the phone does not know and the content provider serving has not identified the user as a child. This was a very vexed question in my previous role as the Commissioner for Data Protection because to identify a child is to identify every adult, potentially, as well. In general, the view has prevailed to date that it is better to have an open, democratic Internet where anonymity remains a possibility and users are not constantly tracked by reference to their identity at every turn. The downside is that children are exposed to an adult Internet and not protected from harms. Unfortunately, I do not think ComReg has a solution along the lines proposed. It would not fall within our powers or be permissible and I am not sure it would be effective, given the age of users is not identifiable.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I do a lot of work in cybersecurity. Yesterday, I did some analysis with a local company in Dublin. All I can say is that I was absolutely horrified at the amount of information available on any one of us in this room. That includes mobile phone numbers, your mother's maiden name and your bank account details. It can all be purchased right now on the dark web. Surely, our Internet service and communications providers have an obligation. On the current use of masked telephone numbers, I have had messages from An Garda Síochána that I know had no reference but it had the magic 61 number. The classic one is a colleague who got a text one night to tell him his daughter was in dire straits, lost her money and her phone but this kind gentleman was willing to give her money if he would give him €300. He said he panicked until he realised he was a single man with no children.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I do not know why he panicked, but anyway.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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That is how good these guys are. Surely to God, with the technology we have today, the service provider has an obligation to protect us. I constantly get phone calls from elderly friends who say they just got a message about such and such and they ask if they should pay it. A dear friend rang me about a postal charge she had to pay. She said she could not remember posting anything. I said to forget it and ignore it. She said they told her they would not deliver it if she did not pay. Trying to convince somebody that this is a scam is a huge problem.

Ms Helen Dixon:

This is a very active area of regulatory activity by ComReg. We established a nuisance communications industry taskforce in 2022 to look at the complexity of issues in how to block those scam calls and SMS messages. We came up with six interventions with industry. We consulted extensively on them and we have now published a decision that requires these six interventions to be implemented by all operators. Five are interventions that relate to voice calls and one relates to a sender ID registry related to SMS messages. As the Senator may know, we conducted our own research on the harms that arise from nuisance communications and, as the Senator referenced, there are psychological and emotional harms as well as the financial issues that arise from fraud. Those six interventions now fall to be implemented by the operators. We have had a good response from operators committing to implementing them. We hope this will see a reduction in what we describe as a scourge. It is a significant issue but one on which ComReg has a major focus.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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On the misuse of phones, it is an established fact that the cyber industry is worth more than the drugs industry to the criminal class. I was with Lloyds in London the week before last and it discussed the business of cyber criminality. It is now a business, with call centres, support systems and everything else in place. It is important. From the point of view of the suppliers, rather than ComReg, should they not advertise on TV, radio and newspapers to tell people not to answer calls from a number they do not recognise and that if it is important, they will leave a message. The suppliers should be warning us of all of these scam messages. It is okay if you are on top of it. I spend all my time thinking about cyber and what goes on in cyber. One day, running between a committee meeting and the Seanad, I got a message saying my bank card had been used in Birmingham. I went through the first two steps of contacting the number before I asked myself what I was thinking. If they can catch me that easily, they can catch anyone. The suppliers must have a role in providing information. Does ComReg agree?

Ms Helen Dixon:

A lot of entities, now including public agencies, provide information on this, including the Central Bank on issues arising in banking. ComReg has published guidance for consumers. We want to increase our information campaigns later this year to drive more traffic to the ComReg website because I am not sure there is always awareness on the part of the public that this can be a source of information. I agree that the providers of services, be it banking or other types of retail services, need to generate awareness. There has been a fair amount of it. I have heard advertisements from the HSE, banks and others trying to alert users. We will note the Senator's view that perhaps there is still more to be done to make sure the public understands how these scams keep evolving and becoming more sophisticated over time.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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The banks and the HSE doing it is fantastic. In all my years - I started with an 088 phone - I have never had a message from my provider telling me to beware of scams or giving me an example of a scam. They have the capacity to send SMS messages to do that.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The problem is half the people would probably think it was a scam itself.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Maybe they would, but not if you do it often enough in the right way. It costs nothing to do it.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Someone in my family, much older than me, got a text saying their credit card was compromised and they got very upset about it. I said it was not compromised because the person had used it since then. Older people want to react. Younger people are probably used to getting thousands of messages and ignoring some of them. Older people generally want to ring a number back. As Senator Craughwell rightly said, if it is important, they will ring back or leave a message. Senator Craughwell's time is well over. I want to let Deputy Kenny in. Senator Craughwell can come back.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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The reason we invited ComReg and Eir to appear before the committee is the outfall from the recent court case, which the witnesses will be aware of. I wish to look at a few issues it shone a light on. The case, and a lot of ComReg's enforcement, is really about complaints mechanisms and whether they are effective and efficient. The next part of that, which is what people really want, is complaint resolution. I note that ComReg made the point in its opening statement that it ensures people receive the quality of service they are legally entitled to; in other words, if they are paying for something, they are actually getting it. As one would be aware from listening to "Liveline" in the days after the case or to the people who come to us as public representatives, many people feel frustrated. It is not just with Eir, although that is one of the main companies we hear about. There are others as well. Even when people make a complaint, it is difficult to get a resolution and for people to feel the problem they have will be resolved. If they are paying for a service, they want that service, whatever it is. Often, they feel frustrated that they cannot get it. It is all well and good to take these people to task about the fact that they do not have a good complaints mechanism but how much effort is made to ensure they actually provide that service?

Ms Helen Dixon:

The Deputy is right that that particular prosecution related to the complaints mechanism as opposed to the substance of the issues the individuals wanted to complain about.

Of course, getting the complaints mechanism right is foundational in terms of getting the substance addressed. Many of the cases we settle are about getting a final resolution swiftly for the user. In cases where a user has been charged for roaming but did not get the warnings or the cap was not applied, we can secure a refund through a settlement straight away, as well as a fine paid by the provider. In terms of overcharging, we have initiated civil enforcement action and applications to the High Court in recent years but settled the cases with commitments to have refunds, in one case to the tune of €76 million. I will come back to the committee with the exact figure. However, we are very much focused on resolving the issue in substance with the enforcement action we take. Sometimes, where we do not go the criminal prosecution route as we did in this case, it is precisely designed to get a swift resolution for the end user.

Nonetheless, the issues keep coming. Some of the issues do not have easy resolutions. What we see in recent times are entrenched and valid complaints from end users where there is basically an installation failure in the context of their attempts to secure a fibre broadband upgrade for their home. Issues may arise where there is a commitment given that they will be upgraded or that their home is already passed and an installation can be done on a certain date, and then issues arise regarding access to the specific property, poor communication happens and, several appointments later, the customer is left wondering why they have not secured fibre broadband. In some of those cases, there is ultimately no resolution in terms of our ability to compel a provider to install fibre broadband where, for reasons it has since identified, it simply is not commercially viable to do so. In as many cases as possible, we get down to the root cause and where there is a resolution to the issue we bring it about.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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On that point, I have come across situations where a provider - normally it is Eir but it may be another provider - goes into a town and provides fibre optic broadband to the houses, all of which have got-----

Ms Helen Dixon:

Duct.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, where the trunking is in place. That only came into place in the mid-1990s, when it became compulsory under building regulations to put in trunking so that cables could be fed into the houses. Houses that are a little older than that do not have it. In order to go into a housing estate where the houses do not have that trunking, it is necessary to dig up the garden and the footpath to get into the house with it. The providers do not do that. A town may have ten housing estates and some of the older ones, which are often local authority houses, are left behind and get no service. That is an issue. Some of the providers say they will come back and install it, but it is a major problem for those areas. On the map, it looks like they are covered. That individual is left without a service, however, or perhaps hundreds of individuals are left without a service in some cases. What powers does ComReg have? If a provider has taken on a contract to provide broadband to a particular area, does it have an obligation to provide it there or is it back then to the national broadband scheme?

Ms Helen Dixon:

It is really the latter. In circumstances where a provider intends to provide fibre broadband but discovers there are direct buried cables or that some additional significant costs will arise that mean it will not get a return in terms of what it will cost to install the fibre broadband, we cannot compel the provider. This is an area where we see a lot of frustration. From our point of view, the communication around why the installation has not happened is poor. This leads to some of the complaints we receive on matters aside from the issue of substance, namely, that the end user ultimately does not have fibre broadband.

I think we are going to have to wait and see, as SIRO, Virgin Media, Eir and NBI continue at pace their roll-outs, what is left behind. We are conscious of the issue the Deputy raises, that outside of the intervention area there may still be gaps that need to be plugged.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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There are substantial gaps, and they are not just in rural areas. They are in urban areas as well.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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There are probably more gaps in urban areas because the intervention areas covered a lot of the rural areas.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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My understanding was that when a provider took on a contract to do a geographical area, it would provide broadband to all in that area. Of course, some of the houses would be easily done, while others would be more difficult. Whatever the charge was going to be, it would cover the 50 houses where it is dead simple to drop the wire in, put it through the trunking and bring it into the house. However, if there are another 25 houses where the provider actually has to dig and it is going to be more expensive in the longer term, the overall price would cover all eventualities. It seems now that the providers are cherry-picking only the ones that are easy to do and leaving the others behind. Ms Dixon is telling me there is nothing in their contract that forces them to do that.

Ms Helen Dixon:

There is no contract there. Obviously, NBI is under contract from the Minister and the Department in terms of its roll-out to the intervention area. It is under specific obligations and must install regardless of the difficulties and cost in that intervention area. For the commercial wholesale providers such as SIRO, Virgin Media and Eir, there is no contract. They simply contract with individual retail providers but there is no contract with an area, location or estate that obligates them to install fibre lines.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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That means we do not know the situation for the people who are left behind. They are technically in an area which is covered by the commercial provider but they are actually not covered. We will have to wait years before somebody comes back to deal with them, which is very inappropriate for the individuals who are left behind.

Ms Helen Dixon:

The Deputy is right. I think it is only going to emerge over time. For our part, what we are trying to do is ensure there is competition in the wholesale market. We now have three providers that are seeking to roll out as far as they can in the commercial space. They have no desire to bypass any households in the commercial space; they only end up doing so where they discover it is unviable. From a broad base picture, yes, we are not going to know for several years which of those areas are definitively bypassed. As the Deputy said, some of the operators are saying they will skip that area for now but may come back and see if they have a solution later on.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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It is very unsatisfactory, is it not? Certainly for the people who live in those areas, it is very unsatisfactory.

Ms Helen Dixon:

It is, but if one was to say those areas should now be placed in an intervention zone, one is precluding the possibility that a commercial provider may yet pick them up on a second sweep. In terms of timing, there is a period that has to be waited before the picture becomes clearer.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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The other issue I want to come in on is the Eir situation specifically and similar types of situations. One of the issues that arose in that regard was that people being trained in the provision of customer care and so on were given instructions which were outside of what would be considered the regulations. People were being told that unless a caller mentions ComReg or knows their rights, that caller would not get the full service. Does Ms Dixon believe that has happened not only in this particular case but also in other cases? Is it something she has come across before? Is it widespread?

Ms Helen Dixon:

I think this case was bespoke on its own particular facts and circumstances. As we discussed earlier, the actual prosecution related to breach of the 2011 regulations in the context of the provision of the acknowledgement, the unique ID and the contact details, etc., rather than in the context of the training manual. To answer the Deputy's question directly, no, it is not something we have seen in any other case.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I know after that the-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Last question.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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A press release from Eir suggested that its training manual had been misinterpreted and the slides did not say what was claimed. Does that stand up? Why do they exist if they were not being used?

Ms Helen Dixon:

Again, the prosecution was for breaches of the 2011 regulations and the ComReg decision. There was a guilty plea and Judge Anthony Halpin issued his judgment and sentence and that was the end of the case.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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That was a ComReg prosecution.

Ms Helen Dixon:

Yes, it was a ComReg case.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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It is quite unusual when anyone goes to court and has a negative finding for them to come out later and say the judge made a mistake. That is pretty much what Eir is saying.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It did not say he made a mistake. I do not want to stray too much into it. I will cut the Deputy off.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I understand.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I think Eir was saying it was guilty of certain things but that it did not believe it was guilty of other things that were said. I am not saying it is right. That is what I got from it.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I certainly hope that at some point Eir will appear before the committee and we will get clarity about what is the situation.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I have two mobile phones in my family with the same provider. One is a business phone, which is mine, and the other is a non-business number. If I ring support on the business line, I will have an answer within three or four minutes. On the other, if I ring on a Tuesday, I might get an answer on the following Friday. The company simply does not answer. It does everything to encourage customers to send SMS messages or emails and simply frustrate customers to the point of giving up on trying to get support. When we talk about Eir, we have open evidence, if you like, that there was a problem. ComReg brought a case against it and was successful in the prosecution. It is hard to prove that there is a direct or determined move to stop people ringing looking for support, but if they are frustrated by having to hang on, it has to be called out. It has to be stopped. Does ComReg have any jurisdiction in that?

Ms Helen Dixon:

Clearly we have jurisdiction if individuals are frustrated to the point that they cannot get access to customer service, have a complaint acknowledged or get a unique ID. That is very much on point with the case we took. Eir is not the only provider we have taken to court. We took a similar case against another mobile phone provider in 2021. It is worth raising the issues with the Senator's provider and escalating it to ComReg if he does not get a satisfactory response. We are genuinely happy to hear about these issues, identify trends and target enforcement action at them, if appropriate.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I have two final points, one of which is on the independent adjudication group. When ComReg has put in place the final terms of reference and so on, will it share those with the committee?

Ms Helen Dixon:

We will indeed. We will publish the guidelines for the operation of the independent adjudicators in final form on our website, including details of them. We consulted on the guidelines for the operation of oral hearings they will conduct and we need to publish a response to that in due course. We will share it with the committee.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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There will be empirical evidence, as best as can be provided, that the members are independent.

Ms Helen Dixon:

Yes, we can share further details on what we are doing to put in place clear structures that will guarantee the independence of the adjudicators from ComReg. It is an unusual set-up because courts are completely independent, physically separate and so on. The adjudicators will be physically separate too. They will not be full-time employees of ComReg. The adjudicators that have been appointed will convene for specific cases but, nonetheless, given that they will need IT equipment and certain elements of support, we want to make sure it is beyond question that they are operating fully independently.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I can understand the commercial reason for the withdrawal of telephone boxes by the dominant player. I have just come back from the UK where I drove through Wiltshire and Somerset. There were telephone boxes all over the place. God help anyone who has a gammy battery in a mobile phone or who just never switched over to mobile phones and does not have a phone at home. I do not suppose there is much ComReg can do about it but it leaves us with a sort of dearth in the communication system in the country.

Ms Helen Dixon:

I am not aware if we have any role in that.

Mr. Mervyn Hickey:

We did historically. There is no longer a universal service obligation on the universal service provider, which was Eir previously, to provide public pay phones. It is a matter at its discretion.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I saw a new one recently so it is providing some.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Yes, in very urban areas. There is one in Terenure for example.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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There is one in Clonskeagh. I have seen a few new ones, but that does not mean there is-----

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I wonder if there is one in Ballydehob or Louisburgh.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It is a commercial decision.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Sadly.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I have a few small points. On the waiting time, does ComReg do any mystery shopping? Most people's initial reaction is that they cannot stand the chatbots where everything is formulaic. They get onto a call centre. Does ComReg monitor how long it takes to speak to people about the issues they are having?

Ms Helen Dixon:

We have information and data on that. We have been looking at it with respect to the customer charter. I cannot quote the specifics, but we can send a note to the committee on it. Access to a human operator is something we want to seek to address.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Eir was before the committee a few years ago. There was a big issue. It was on "Prime Time". There was a lot of talk about it at the time and I do not know whether it has improved. There seems to be a glitch with top-ups now. Many people are on bill pay, but if people top up €20 with a particular mobile phone provider, €10 vanishes and they get €10 credit, not €20. If they top up €10 and then another €10 they get the credit, but if they top up €20, €10 goes missing. It happens always. I was topping up for someone else, but one day I forgot and I only got the €10 credit. I did not pursue it as it was too much trouble, but I would like to know how to pursue it properly. It is clearly a glitch. It has happened a few times and I am sure I am not the only person it has happened to. Has ComReg ever heard of that glitch?

Mr. Mervyn Hickey:

There have been instances in the past where that has arisen. There are very different types of models of that type of service. With some, the credit is deducted immediately but people have the benefit of the service for the month. With others it is a pro rata deduction as people use the credit.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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In this case, I got €10 but not the other €10. That argument does not work in this scenario.

Mr. Mervyn Hickey:

Sure. There should not be a situation where the Deputy was charged for a service he did not get. There is law to that effect.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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What is the timeline on that, before ComReg can pursue it? Is it six months, a year or two years?

Mr. Mervyn Hickey:

To the best of my recollection, it is 12 months.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I will have to check my credit card statements.

Does Senator Craughwell want to add anything else?

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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No.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Dixon and Mr. Hickey for their contributions today and for the work they do. I am sure we will see them again.

The next meeting of the joint committee will be a private meeting on MS Teams at 4 p.m. next Tuesday, 28 May.