Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the committee for the invitation to brief members in my capacity as Minister for Foreign Affairs. I will speak on some of the foreign policy issues that my Department is focused on as well as the consultative forum on international security policy. I bear in mind what the Chairman said in that regard.

The situation in the Middle East is at the forefront of our minds. We have the opportunity for a comprehensive debate on the issue in the Dáil tomorrow, but I also welcome a discussion with the committee in this setting. I know this committee has been deeply involved for many years in the issue of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I want to use this opportunity to discuss with members the principles guiding the Government's response to this crisis. I also want to touch on the longer-term significance of what we are witnessing.

First, though, I reiterate my heartfelt condolences to Kim Damti’s family and to the family of Emily Hand. Their deaths, like all the deaths in Israel in the 7 October attack, were deeply shocking. I know the committee will join me in offering these condolences.

We have repeatedly stated our horror about the violence that we have seen in the past ten days. We must continue to state it. We have to reject, unequivocally, consistently and vocally, those who advocate for violence as a means to resolve the conflict in the Middle East. The numbers of lives that have been lost, irrevocably damaged or placed in mortal danger continues to rise. Members will have heard me say time and again that a commitment to multilateralism – the rules-based international order with the UN Charter at its core – is the cornerstone of Irish foreign policy. This situation is no different. This has been my message to all my counterparts in Europe and in the region to whom I have spoken.

The UN Secretary General has made it very clear that even wars have rules. International humanitarian law exists for a reason. Its overarching aim is to protect civilians. That means all civilians everywhere. As the Red Cross movement, the guardians of international humanitarian law, has said, in the law of armed conflict, there is no hierarchy in pain and suffering. The rules of war exist to help preserve humanity in its darkest moments and they desperately need to be followed today.They are and should remain our compass to ensure that we put humanity first. I echoed this call in my statement last Sunday. The rules are clear and they apply to all sides in all conflicts everywhere - state and non-state armed groups alike.

I have stated clearly and unambiguously that we are in agreement with the UN Secretary-General on this. The decision by the Israeli military to tell the entire civilian population in the north of the Gaza Strip to move southward for their own safety was unrealistic, unworkable and deeply dangerous. We are seeing the terrible humanitarian consequences. There is an urgent need for humanitarian corridors to be established to deliver vital humanitarian assistance to Palestinian civilians. We are in ongoing contact with the United Nations, the International Committee of the Red Cross and regional partners on this issue.

I spoke with Philippe Lazzarini, the head of United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, UNRWA, yesterday. There is no doubt about the brutal criminality of Hamas and its utter disregard for human life, including the lives of its fellow Palestinians. Let us also be clear that international humanitarian law explicitly prohibits the taking of hostages, the use of civilians as human shields and the locating of military objectives within or near densely-populated areas - all actions that Hamas is, and has been, engaged in. However, a distinction must absolutely be made between Hamas and Palestinian civilians. This is the message that the Government has also been stressing in European Union discussions on this crisis, consistently and at all levels.

The European Union has an important role to play. Our common foreign and security policy – which all member states are part of and are obliged by the treaties to implement – is based on the clear underpinning that: "The Union's action on the international scene shall be guided by the principles of the United Nations Charter and international law." No ifs; no buts. Ireland will continue to insist on this in all EU discussions and in respect of all EU actions and decisions now and in the coming weeks.

We are at a moment of grave risk. What we do today and in the days ahead must take account of a longer-term perspective. We are at a critical juncture. For years, those who have desired a just and sustainable peace have decried the lack of advancement in any peace process. Whatever our differences on policy in this room, I know that this is a view we all share. We must do everything to avoid the prospect of the voices of extremism on all sides becoming the loudest or only voices. I am talking not just about Israel and Palestine, but about the many voices external to this conflict. This is simply too serious for us to misjudge. Voices of moderation have been drowned out for far too long. That does not mean that Israel should abandon its right to self-defence. No one of any political background can be in any doubt now as to what Hamas is, what it is capable of and what its objectives are.

Nothing justifies what we witnessed on 7 October. None of that means though that we should abandon rationality and reason in our response. As outside observers who care deeply about this situation, the only responsible way forward is to support a future in which people do not use political violence to achieve their aims. This is the foundation upon which democracy is built. We can argue over the best ways in which we can achieve this, but we should be clear that this is our aim.

This is an incredibly dark period, and it will get darker. However, there is a horizon; there has to be a horizon. Everything we say and do must be towards ensuring that those who emerge stronger on that horizon are the moderates and not the extremists. This has been at the heart of my engagement over the past few days.

I wish also to address the situation in Ukraine. Since I was last here, this issue has been at the heart of my work and that of my Department. Ukraine is continuing to fight for its survival as a state against an expansionist Russia. In the 32 years since the formation of the modern Russian Federation, it has declared two annexations of the territory of another sovereign state and destabilised several others. In five months, we will mark the tenth anniversary of the annexation of Crimea. We cannot be naïve about Russian objectives and behaviour. Ukraine is fighting to protect the Europe that we wish to continue to live in, one in which political violence has no home and in which war cannot be used as a means of competition and dominance.

I will be frank on this point because its importance to our interests as a State is immense. Russia is fighting a war of attrition in which it believes its persistence is its greatest advantage. It has failed to reach its stated military objectives in its invasion and is now hoping to outlast Ukraine's resilience and resources. We need to ensure Ukraine has the multifaceted support required to guarantee Russia will not succeed.

I participated in a visit by EU foreign ministers to Kyiv at the start of this month. This was a strong and important signal to both Kyiv and Moscow. We have a number of significant proposals on the table, including the Ukraine facility and the Ukraine assistance fund, which would see us put in place predictable and sustainable funding for the next few years. The details of these proposals will have to be carefully considered but they will deliver benefits for both us and Ukraine, shifting our decision-making and support from an ad hocto structured basis. I announced an additional package of €23 million for Ukraine during United Nations high-level week, bringing our total support since the invasion to more than €210 million. We will continue with that support as long as necessary.

This is my first opportunity to address this committee since the consultative forum on international security policy in June. I thank in particular those committee members who participated in the forum and the associated public consultation. The committee will have received a copy of the chair’s report, which I presented to the Government earlier today. One of the most striking elements of the report on first reading is the degree to which there is broad consensus on many issues, such as the pride Irish people feel towards our international engagement and the strong sense there is value in working more closely with our partners in a manner compatible with our military neutrality. There was clear recognition, too, that we face emerging threats, especially in cyberspace and in the maritime domain. The forum was also invaluable in shining a light on the areas where we must consider our national security arrangements, including an acknowledgment of the need to invest more in Defence Forces capabilities. With an allocation of €1.23 billion in budget 2024, we anticipate this will enable further progress on the transformation of the Defence Forces as outlined in the recently published strategic framework.

The question of the triple lock was also raised, and from reading the chair’s report, it is clear there is no one viewpoint on how best to manage the decision to deploy Irish troops abroad. In my view, however, we must consider the challenges facing the UN Security Council in agreeing or renewing UN peacekeeping mandates. The implications of this for Ireland and our current policy are simply something we have to take seriously. In an increasingly unpredictable world, we need to work together to navigate the complex choices we face from a baseline of facts and evidence. The chair’s report marks an important contribution to this effort. I look forward to continuing this conversation, both with this committee and with the wider Oireachtas in the weeks ahead, and I anticipate a Dáil debate shortly on this.

Turning to the situation in Northern Ireland, it is deeply disappointing that almost 18 months on from the most recent assembly elections, Northern Ireland's power-sharing institutions remain blocked. The Government and I are working urgently to support a return of the assembly and the Executive. I met the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland last week and am in regular contact with the Northern Ireland parties. I have made clear to them that this situation cannot be allowed to continue indefinitely. It is past time the democratically elected representatives of Northern Ireland were allowed to take up their responsibilities and deliver for their constituents on the range of pressing challenges facing them.

The bilateral Irish-British relationship remains fundamentally important, not least when it comes to protecting peace on this island. The richness and diversity of ties between our people are unique. Trade is at record levels. In addition to a steady flow of bilateral meetings and visits at political level, institutional structures under strand three of the Good Friday Agreement provide important frameworks for co-operation and engagement. These include the British-Irish Council and the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference, both of which will convene in Dublin in November. They also include parliamentary structures such as the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. These are forums where we can build relations and engage on important issues such as energy co-operation, education and social and economic issues. As a Government, we continue to invest in the bilateral relationship. Plans for a new Ireland House in London are evidence of that, as are our co-operation frameworks with Scotland and Wales. I look forward to heading to Bangor with the Minister, Deputy Harris, later this week to advance work on, for example, our shared statement with Wales but, of course, there is much more work to be done and that remains our focus.

Earlier this year, I set out Ireland’s approach to our relationship with China. I underlined our commitment to engagement on global challenges and to growing mutually beneficial ties. I reiterated the Government’s continued adherence to the one China policy and made clear we will act to protect our interests and our values, whether that be taking steps to shore up our economic resilience, advocating for a level playing field for Irish business or speaking clearly on the preservation and promotion of human rights. In June, the European Council sent an important and unified message that provides all EU member states with a solid platform for sustained engagement. This shared approach is often referred to as "de-risking". I want to be clear this does not mean turning our back on an economic, diplomatic and cultural relationship with China. De-risking is not decoupling, but it is being clear-eyed about the challenges and risks. It is in this spirit that I will travel to China in November. I look forward to meeting the foreign minister, Wang Yi, whom I met at the Munich Security Conference, and to establishing a solid basis for constructive dialogue both on issues on which we share a common interest and on those on which our approaches differ.

Lastly, I wish to mention the significance of last week’s budget announcement for the work of the Department of Foreign Affairs. Next year will see yet another increase in the Department’s development assistance budget, allowing Ireland to help many more people, especially those impacted by climate change, the war in Ukraine, food insecurity and humanitarian crises. A total of €776.5 million will be allocated to Irish Aid. This is the highest ever level, representing an increase of €60 million, or 8.4%, on the 2023 allocation. Based on current estimates, this means the total official development assistance for 2024 will amount to €2 billion. The additional funding, in conjunction with additional funding from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, will enable Ireland to provide a total additional sum of €42.5 million for international climate finance in 2024, a significant step towards meeting our commitment to providing annual funding of at least €225 million by 2025.

I would have liked to speak in more detail on COP 28 and on my visit to South Africa and Mozambique. As the committee requested, however, that I cover both foreign affairs and defence issues in this session, our time for detailed discussion on priority foreign policy issues is necessarily curtailed. I look forward to our discussions on these and other issues in the coming months.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Tánaiste for being here. As I indicated to the Chair, I will have to leave for a Dáil debate at some point, so I apologise for that. I thank the Tánaiste also for his opening remarks. As he indicated, there are a number of areas on which we would like to have a detailed discussion, but it is clear today and this week that the priority for the coming period will be the circumstances in Palestine and Israel. In that vein, will the Tánaiste give us an update on the status of the Defence Forces in Lebanon and Golan Heights? That would be useful for the committee.

The Tánaiste and the Government have rightly been forceful in outlining the revulsion of the Irish people at the actions of Hamas last Saturday week, and the fact those actions were unjustified under any parameters and were a flagrant breach of not only international law but also human norms. He and the Government have also been clear that adherence to international law and the UN charter is a fundamental principle to which all parties to conflict must adhere. I thank him for that because, unfortunately, we have seen in a European context that saying that, which I would consider to be just a basic principle, does not come easy to some European leaders when it is people in Palestine who are being killed. It is important for Ireland to maintain that consistency of approach in calling out breaches of international law, regardless of whether they are committed by Hamas, Russia or the Israeli state.

The difficulty I have is that the language that is applied to different breaches is not always as forceful. Since, and arguably before, the events of last Saturday week, we have seen a state, namely the State of Israel, breach international law virtually every single day through the ongoing occupation, annexation and apartheid regime that is in place. Looking over even recent days, however, the deliberate, in my view, targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure that has resulted in the deaths of almost 3,000 Palestinians in Gaza is a breach of international law, and we must condemn it as such. The forced transfer of up to a million people from the north of Gaza to the south of Gaza, from one end of an open-air prison to another end of an open-air prison, is a breach of international law and should be called out and condemned as such. The denial of basic services - water, food, gas, electricity - is a breach of international law. It amounts, as the Taoiseach has said, to collective punishment. It should be called out and condemned as such. Will the Tánaiste today call out and condemn each of those actions as such in order that we can be very clear in our consistent approach? The situation in Gaza is obviously unique and horrendous as we meet. At the same time, the Israeli state is engaged in actions in the West Bank, where Hamas has no control, that have resulted in 55 people being killed and more than 1,100 people, as I understand it from the most up-to-date figures, being injured. Will the Tánaiste condemn those actions as breaches of international law?

There has been quite an amount of debate about the role the President of the European Commission has played. I consider the role she has played to be very regretful and disappointing. The Tánaiste outlined in his opening statement that the EU Common Foreign and Security Policy is based on the clear underpinning that the Union's action on the international scene shall be guided by the principles of the UN Charter and international law. Does he accept that the actions of Ms von der Leyen have not been consistent with that approach, and will he make a comment in that regard?

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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May I add one more question, a Chathaoirligh, please?

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It will.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Irish Government today call for an immediate cessation of hostilities by all actors, including the Israeli Government; the release of hostages, absolutely; and an immediate ceasefire by Israeli forces and Hamas forces?

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Tánaiste for being here and for his presentation.

I welcome the fact, as we all do, that the Tánaiste has condemned Hamas and its actions in Israel. They are unspeakable. That is a starting point about which there can be no ambiguity, and there is no ambiguity, but I welcome the fact that he has said that clearly again. It has to remain part of our narrative on all occasions.

I wish to ask the Tánaiste a few specific questions, first about where we are in getting Irish nationals safely out of Gaza. Related to that and what Deputy Carthy asked the Tánaiste, we are all very concerned about the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, UNIFIL, our Permanent Defence Force personnel in-----

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Fine. That is okay.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have that down for the next session.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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It occurs to me, moving on, that there is a human dimension to this, that it is very dangerous for the region and that Israel, as Hamas intended, is making its decisions in anger. I think that was the Hamas strategy, and it seems to be working. As was said, international law and international order have to apply in how Israel conducts its business in Gaza. Does the Tánaiste see any further interventions that can be made? Many experts are beginning to say that this has the potential, if Israel goes ahead with a complete ground invasion, to become a regional conflict and, even apart from that, to be bogged down within Gaza. I ask the Tánaiste about that. The policies are being made in anger. Can anything be done at that level to talk about that?

I ask the Tánaiste about the up-to-date status of the efforts to open humanitarian corridors to get food and support in. The world wants that.

I also welcome the fact that the Tánaiste said international order and UN rules of war have to apply to all situations and must apply here. The population move is illegal on a number of fronts in that it is not only a breach of international law in itself but also not a practical option. There is already a considerable level of bombardment of the south. There is also the physical reality that there can be 50 people living together in little family homes, so it is not an option on all levels.

I was going to ask the Tánaiste about the hostages and where he thinks that is developing but he has referred to that.

It is a horrific conflict in that I think the latest figures show that something in the region of 4,200 are dead, and there is the potential for many more.

As regards Ukraine, is the Tánaiste concerned about the international shift of focus now and the risk of the Ukrainian people being lost in that?

I ask him specifically about an issue that has come up a lot on the Council of Europe, where I have the privilege of being one of the Irish delegates, namely, the children who have been abducted from Ukraine into Russia. What specific actions are being taken in that regard, and what does the Tánaiste see?

In summary, I welcome the commitment of our Government, through the Tánaiste, to the rules-based international order as opposed to war crimes and breaches of international law, which cannot be condoned. I welcome also the condemnation of wrong actions on both sides. There is a simple phrase we all heard in our childhood, "two wrongs do not make a right", and there is a shocking risk now that we will have two wrongs making a bigger wrong.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Tánaiste and his officials for making themselves available.

Notwithstanding the welcome updates on Ukraine and the initiative in respect of our security, including our future security, and the mention of the various progress and potential as regards the future of Northern Ireland, I will focus on the immediate issue of the Middle East. I have talked to people in my constituency, as I am sure other Members have throughout the country, and they are worried, fearful, frustrated and angered over recent events. I can understand the questions that have come from other Members as regards their concerns about our Defence Forces in Lebanon and Syria because their existing role can be maintained only on the basis of successful efforts to de-escalate the present crisis, ensuring it does not spread within the region.

My questions are therefore specifically about the fact that every day and every hour is vital in seeking to address this issue. What progress has been made today, for example, on the creation and maintenance of a humanitarian aid corridor for those impacted by ongoing events? What progress has been made today as regards assistance being sought and working with our partners, including our EU partners, in getting our Irish citizens out of danger in the immediate area affected? What progress has been made today and in recent days as regards efforts by all parties to de-escalate the situation?

As the spokesperson for our policy and the commitments we have made to UN Charters, can the Tánaiste state that we speak as one with our partners in Europe, with those charged with the responsibility of leading Europe and with the UN?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Carthy raised a number of points. In the past we have been very clear in calling out and condemning violations of international law by Israel in respect of the occupied territories. I do not necessarily accept that the narrative in the past has been as he described it. We have been very consistent in saying that UN resolutions should be adhered to in respect of settlements. On my recent visit to the Middle East I referred to the fact there were unacceptable levels of settler expansion and displacement of Palestinians on the West Bank. The issue here is more complex, if we are honest about it. I spoke to the Israeli Government on that occasion. I will not say which interlocutor because when in engagement and discussions with people we have to respect some degree of confidentiality. It is fair to say that the prism through which politics is looked at in Israel is "Security, security, terror, terror". The fear of attack dominates the political narrative. It has been a large factor in the electoral outcome of successive elections. How many people would have said Israel is overdoing its fear and that its focus on security is overdone or misplaced? My view has always been, and I have said it here again today, that the forces of moderation must always be encouraged and nurtured. I have been critical of Israeli Government policy over the years for not facilitating the emergence in Palestine of a strong Palestinian Authority. International partners should have done likewise. There are challenges on all fronts.

There is no equivocation here. The deepest fears of Israeli people came to a realisation last Saturday week. We must not underestimate the impact of this on the Israeli psyche and the Israeli people. There were 1,400 civilians murdered in cold blood in the most horrific of circumstances. Hundreds and hundreds of Hamas operatives came over the border and shot anyone in sight, including children and elderly people, and took hostages. We have to be very clear in consistently articulating this reality.

Senator Joe O'Reilly made the point that two wrongs do not make a right. Under international law, people have a right to self defence. Within that legal framework, Israel can legitimately say it wants to deal with Hamas, which has declared war on Israel. That is what the Israeli position is. The problem is that Hamas is deeply embedded in civilian life and society in Gaza. Historical experience shows that it will utilise this degree of being embedded to protect itself and disappear. I have long and consistently said the bombing of any urban conurbation results in the loss of civilian life. I want no loss of civilian life and international law places an obligation on all actors to protect civilian life.

We support a humanitarian pause in hostilities to allow in humanitarian aid. I do not want to get too semantic about this, and I know that Deputy Carthy knows this is our position. I discussed it earlier with his party leader in the context of motion before the Dáil. Many people called on Ukraine to declare a ceasefire but that would have meant for Ukraine to accept the new incursions by Russia as a reality. In other words, it would forfeit all of the land that Russia has taken. I accept that the situation is somewhat different in Gaza. Nonetheless, there is a fundamental point as to whether we believe that Israel has a right to go after Hamas. We need to ask ourselves that question.

I am teasing through these issues. We are getting into discussing military operations and perhaps there are people here who are wiser on that front than those of us who are not in the military world. I can understand why, from a military point of view, people would want to neutralise the military threat that Hamas poses to a civilian population, which it does having perpetrated the attack. That said, we have called out that the decision to tell 1 million people that they should move was wrong. It was dangerous and not implementable. It cannot be done. There has to be proportionality in the context of how Hamas is pursued. The protection of the civilian population has to be a top priority. We must also distinguish between the people of Gaza and Hamas. Not all of the people of Gaza are members of Hamas or engage in violence. Many have families like our own who want to try to get on with life.

We have worked with all to ask what is the immediate priority. Given all that has happened, realistically what can we try to influence? It seems that what we can try to influence the most in the shortest possible term is a pause to allow humanitarian aid to get into Gaza. Parallel with this we also want to get our citizens out of Gaza through the Rafah crossing. We have been engaging with the Egyptian authorities, the Israeli authorities and the United Nations in respect of trying to facilitate an exit pathway through Rafah for Irish citizens and some of their dependents. Two days ago, we were hoping that there would be a window of opportunity for the crossing to be opened.

I have spoken to UNRWA because Ireland is one of its strongest and most consistent supporters. UNRWA is the UN agency that has been longest involved in the Middle East. It has been keeping education and health services going and food available for Palestinians. As a country we have been asked to help UNRWA to get on diplomatically and to try to help reframe its financial sustainability. We are doing this. We believe nations throughout the world must now give urgent additional funding to UNRWA. It is a very practical step that should be taken. We will be doing this in addition to the core funding we have given UNRWA. Yesterday Philippe Lazzarini told me he could give me three words to explain what the people of Gaza need. He said, "Water, water, water". We are very focused on working with our international partners to get the humanitarian corridors open. We do not want Israel intervening in this regard. It has concerns about Rafah because it feels other things will happen there vis-à-visHamas. Likewise, Hamas cannot use the civilian population for its agenda or its objectives.

In the European context, when I spoke at the Foreign Affairs Council last week there was a very strong majority. The meeting was held in Oman, and we participated by video link. We said strongly that there can be no suspension of development or humanitarian aid. It was interesting that the vast majority of member states along with us stress the importance of international humanitarian law and that any focus on Hamas had to have proportionality and be in accordance with international law.

A joint statement was issued on Sunday by the European Union. Charles Michel spoke to all of the leaders of member states and their officials and we worked on Sunday morning to get that statement out. The Deputy may have seen that.

There are different strands of opinion within the European Union. Historically, Germany because of the Holocaust sees an obligation to protect Israel. I read recently Chancellor Scholz articulate it in such a way. That has been consistent over the decades. Other countries, like Austria, have a similar perspective. We can rail against it. It is easy to condemn it. I would rather, with 27 member states around the table, consider how to engage with people who look at things from a different perspective. How can we arrive at a decent position that allows the right things to be done? If in international forums we end up calling each other out across the table, we will not make much progress. The European Union is the biggest donor to Palestine.

What happened last week, in terms of Commissioner Várhelyi in particular, was unacceptable, because he took a solo run in respect of announcing a cessation of aid when there had been no consultation and he had no authority to do that. We and others called that out quickly at the Foreign Affairs Council meeting. It is important we get the balance right. President von der Leyen yesterday also spoke of the importance and centrality of international law. Today the Taoiseach is engaging in an online meeting with all 27 EU states to discuss the situation, as we are discussing it now.

On the Defence Forces, with anything I say there are security issues that we do not necessarily want to articulate generally. I have met with the Defence Forces leadership on this. Our troops are, first and foremost, under UN command. There will be UN-level plans and authority in terms of directing UNTSO, UNIFIL and UNDOF. UNTSO involves military and civilian observers; they move about Lebanon. UNIFIL involves the largest numbers we have; I think it is about 375. Their situation is they are safe. They have protocols to adhere to when things develop. They are under command as well, with the UNIFIL leadership. Then we have UNDOF; of the three, so far there seems to be less volatility in that location. Things could change at any time.

I had a lengthy conversation last evening with the Iranian foreign minister. He first of all said they have no influence over any of these regional actors, be it Hamas, Hezbollah or anybody else. Parallel with that, he indicated to me that from his discussions with these regional actors, his sense was there could be significant strengthening and widening of the conflict regionally. That was his assessment. One could read into that a number of things. We are conscious of wanting to avoid a regional escalation of this, particularly in Lebanon and the West Bank. That has been a concern of all involved.

Our sense of the international community, notwithstanding what one might read publicly, is that there is a genuine desire to get some restraint into this and move in a better direction, from a humanitarian corridor perspective and around restraint more generally. Efforts are being made internationally to do that. One will never know what thinking was behind the Hamas attack but the idea, as Senator Joe O’Reilly said, that people did not anticipate the reaction and what was to come afterwards is not credible. It does not justify anything but one has to ask, if they were looking to protect Palestinians, whether they seriously thought that going in to murder 1,500 Israelis in cold blood would do so. That does not justify anything but it needs to be said.

I met Mahmoud Abbas and he was clear to me he believes in a peaceful resolution towards a two-state solution. In fairness to him, the international community and Israel are culpable in not pursuing that two-state solution. I have no hesitation in saying that. He was clear and courageous. It is difficult for them now in the febrile atmosphere of the West Bank and Gaza. When I met them a month ago and three or four days ago in the midst of all this, members of the Palestinian National Authority were very clear in saying a peaceful route to the resolution of these issues is the only route. I take some heart from that. It was challenging for him to have to say that. I hope I have answered most of the questions.

On Ukraine-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Actually, the Tánaiste has not answered the questions I asked. I do not know why. Maybe he can explain. I asked him to call out and condemn specific breaches of international law by Israel. I do not know why we are afraid to do it. If I had asked the same question about Hamas or Russia, he would have had no hesitation in taking the opportunity. He says there is no equivalence but there is one area where there is equivalence: the pain, hurt and tragedy being endured by the 1,400 families of Israelis who were killed is the exact same as the pain, hurt and tragedy being endured by 3,000 Palestinian families in Gaza. The one area where there is no equivalence is the conditions under which residents of each state live. The fact Israel can cut off water to Gaza shows it is under occupation. That is the root cause of the conflict and we need to be able to call that out. I do not know why there is a reluctance in recent days from Irish Ministers - albeit we all acknowledge the strong position we have taken in ensuring adherence to international law - to specifically call out actions of Israel as breaches of international law and condemn them as such.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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As I said earlier, we have condemned breaches of UN resolutions and international law over recent years.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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As to the current context, I did answer the question. I do not believe in full equivalence on this one, unfortunately. I genuinely have an issue here. In my narrative, what I was saying to the Deputy and articulating was about the concerns of Israel around security relating to Hamas. Does the Deputy think Israel has a right to self-defence against Hamas?

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I do not-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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As I said earlier - I do not know if the Deputy heard me - we are calling for a humanitarian pause in hostilities. In other words, we want a pause, a stop.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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You have asked me a question; let me answer it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not here to battle with you or anybody. I want to please-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Here is the difficulty: the words-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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If you will just let me finish-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I want to ask the Deputy: do you believe Israel has a right to-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste has asked me a question.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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They have a right to go after Hamas, to deal with and neutralise Hamas, given what happened.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Here is the fundamental problem: the words “Israel has the right to defend itself” have been contaminated because they have been associated with the carpet bombing of civilian areas, the forced displacement of 1 million people and the denial to ordinary civilians of water, electricity and food.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have called that out, by the way. You know that.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Here is the difficulty: if carpet bombing of civilian areas led to the defeat of Hamas, Hamas would be defeated already because Israel has done it on countless occasions since its blockade began in 2007.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not saying that. I am just asking the Deputy whether he thinks it has the right to neutralise Hamas. Yes or no?

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What I think needs to happen is that there needs to be a ceasefire and a cessation of activities. Ireland needs to call for that.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I know, but-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We need to be upfront in saying that our own experience of conflict resolution-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Through the Chair-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----shows that the only way we are going to solve this, and ensure that UN resolutions are upheld, is if there is recognition of the two-state solution. Israel is the party that is preventing the realisation of that.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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If I may speak on that point, a Chathaoirligh.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not want to be overly party political, but I have to make the point that we have consistently called this out. We have said that cutting off fuel, water and so on is wrong. I asked Deputy Carthy a straight question about whether he thinks that Israel has a right to go after Hamas, given what has happened to Israel's people. He did not answer. The reason I have difficulty in taking all of what he is saying as being bona fide is because, a day or two after that horrific attack, his former party leader put up on Twitter a photograph of some hill or mountain and said “Free Palestine” as if it was a justification for what happened. Now, he may not have meant it that way-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is actually making a party political point.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----but it happened.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is a nasty way of approaching this because------

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Sinn Féin seems to have a problem with Hamas-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----what we are talking about is the recognition-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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You are accusing me of-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am not accusing you of anything. I have commended the Government’s language in respect of international law, but I have asked the Tánaiste why the Government will not specify the breaches of international law by Israel and condemn it for those.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have outlined that. We condemn all breaches of international law, and we have said that. In a statement, we said: "The decision by the Israeli military to tell the entire civilian population in the north of the Gaza strip to move southward for their own safety is deeply dangerous and impossible to implement." I have said this-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Their own safety?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry. I-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It was forced displacement. It was not asking people to move for their own safety.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not say that.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is forced displacement.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Ah, look, Deputy. I am saying-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The UN has called it as such.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am saying that Israel said that. I am reading out to the Deputy what I said about it. What I said------

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Well, call it “forced displacement”, which is illegal under international law.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is "deeply dangerous and impossible to implement." That is what I said on the record a couple of days ago and again today. That is my point.

I have some difficulty. We will not discuss Deputies Paul Donnelly or Andrews, but Deputy Carthy seems to have a problem in at least having an issue with Hamas. The bottom line is, if someone comes in and kills 1,500 of your people, what are you going to do? I do not think that the population of Gaza should be the casualty of this-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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When you say-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----but I just want to find out how we deal with Hamas.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----and when world leaders say that Israel has a right to defend itself, what that has been translated as and what it means in practice for people living in Gaza-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----is having bombs rain on top of them.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not agree with that, no.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is what it has meant in practice.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No one agrees with that.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not agree with that at all.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste does not. We do not. No one does.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Then say so.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have said so.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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He has said it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have said it lots of times.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Carthy has his clip now. He is happy.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have said hundreds of times that bombing an urban conurbation means innocent civilians get killed. I am trying to tease this through to get an understanding of it. We can all make our positions known, but we need to try to progress them as best we can. We are a small country and a lot of people respect our position. A lot of people keep talking to us at least and keep engaging from all sides. In particular, Arab states like Jordan and others value our input into this and they accept our bona fides. We do not get everything right, but we have to manage this in the best interests of the Palestinian people. We are calling for a pause in hostilities-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Genuinely, the point I am making here is that-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----in the first instance to get humanitarian aid through.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----what we have learned from history is that the continued bombardments and blockades are not going to bring peace any closer. That is the point I am making.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that, Chair.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I believe I have dealt with everything, more or less. The shift of focus in Ukraine is a concern in terms of a potential campaign of bombing energy installations over the winter period literally to freeze people to death.

Deputy Cowen spoke about a humanitarian corridor. I addressed that point earlier. We are constantly speaking to all of the authorities to see if we can get the Rafah crossing open. We are not alone in that. Other international actors are doing everything they can to getting Rafah open with a view to getting humanitarian aid in but also to getting our citizens out.

I believe Senator O’Reilly asked another question. Some 20,000 children have been identified by Ukraine as having been forcibly deported from their homes. We have been at the forefront of international efforts to ensure accountability for crimes committed. The deportation or forcible transfer of civilians, including children, may amount to war crimes or crimes against humanity. We have raised this issue at multilateral forums, including the UN Human Rights Council. We co-sponsored a resolution to the Human Rights Council establishing an independent international commission of inquiry to investigate all alleged violations and abuses of human rights and violations of international and humanitarian law. We have welcomed the decision by the International Criminal Court, ICC, to issue arrest warrants for President Vladimir Putin and Ms Maria Lvova-Belova in respect of possible war crimes relating to the unlawful deportation and transfer of children from Ukraine to Russia. We made a voluntary contribution of €1 million to the office of the prosecutor of the ICC to assist in the investigation of all situations before the court.

Catherine Ardagh (Fianna Fail)
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I join other members in sending our condolences to the families of the Irish citizens who were killed and to the victims of the war in Palestine and Israel so far.

Many people do not quite understand the difference between Hamas and ordinary Palestinians. Getting the Tánaiste’s insight into what is happening in the conflict has been helpful. There is a great deal of information in the media and many of us get our information from Facebook, Twitter or Instagram, but much of that is inaccurate. As such, it is important for us to figure out how to get the facts on the ground. I would encourage members to share the Tánaiste’s statements on what is happening and his view on same. From the start, the Tánaiste’s language has been moderate. He asked for proportionality. The language he is using to address the conflict has been taken up and followed around Europe.

On 7 October, the situation changed significantly. It is reported that Hamas had been planning the attack for two years. Just imagine the resources and planning that went into making their way into Israel and committing these barbaric attacks on young people. Young people, including children, are the victims in all wars. The Tánaiste mentioned how 20,000 Ukrainian children have been abducted by the Russians. Children in Israel and Palestine are being affected. There is intergenerational trauma in the Palestinian and Israeli psyches.

We are on the periphery, so what can we do? It is great that the Government has a role and that people are talking to Ireland Inc. to get our view on the situation, but what is the path? Are there high-level discussions with Hamas? Can someone talk to the terrorists? Is there a path to a ceasefire? We are a small committee, but what can we do? Can we address the language used in the discourse to try to avoid an escalation in the conflict in the Middle East and more contagion? The borders with Lebanon and the West Bank are already seeing outbreaks of violence. It does not look good.

I do not believe that those who committed the 7 October attack did not know what they were doing. They knew exactly the backlash that would occur. This attack will change the landscape and the timeline of the Middle East for the next decade. It is worrying, especially for the citizens.

I do not have particular questions, but from an international perspective, will the Tánaiste provide an update on ceasefire talks, humanitarian corridor talks or sideline talks? What can we do? People watching this debate would like to help. We are a peaceful nation.

In some ways we probably identify with the Palestinians in the ways we were taken on. I totally understand that. I also understand that a state has a right to defend its citizens. On 7 October, 1,400 people were killed in a brutal attack. What should the Israelis do?

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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They should abide by international law.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I thank the Tánaiste for his presentation so far. I want to bring up that we keep talking about international law and the rules of war. This throws me. We spent 40 years with a civil war in the North of our country, where international rules mean nothing. Terrorists were willing to kill their own people, which is exactly what Hamas is willing to do. Hamas uses human shields all of the time. This is not some lovely game with a referee in the middle who says "That is not on" or "That is on". This is a brutal war where the terrorists involved are prepared to kill all around them - Israelis, Palestinians or anyone else who gets in their way. They are totally and utterly uncaring with respect to the impact their actions can have on the general stability of the Middle East.

We have to put things in context. We have to step back from it a little and see exactly what is going on. The Tánaiste made the point a short time ago that if 1,500 of your people are brutally murdered on a Saturday, are you to sit and do nothing? Do not get me wrong. I do not for one moment condone the cutting off of water, food and fuel in Gaza. I do not support the blanket bombing of Gaza. I recently relayed to the Israelis that, in my view, the attempt to wipe out Hamas has turned the Israeli Defense Forces into a recruiting sergeant for Hamas. If they were to wipe out every single member of Hamas today, a new organisation would rise from the ashes tomorrow and they would face the same thing.

In our own country, we learned that the only way to end terrorism was to talk - to sit down and find a solution. Surely we in Ireland, who have been through this, who know what it takes to make people who hate one another, people who are willing to throw their own people under the bus, to talk to each other, are the people who should be able to talk to both sides here.

My problem is the Tánaiste spoke to Mahmoud Abbas, who is the political leader of the Palestinian people, but he is not Hamas. How do we talk to terrorists who care for nothing? I, like everybody else, see the images of little children lying in hospital with bullet wounds and all sorts of things. Let us not for one moment turn around and say this is all Israel's fault. Hamas brought this on its own people. I am not saying the response from Israel is right. I am saying Hamas brought this on its own people. You can talk about open prisons and about anything you want, but at the end of the day, somebody somewhere sat in a room and planned what happened a couple of weeks ago. That is exactly what happened. They planned it and they meant it to happen. We have to be realistic about it. We must try to get moderation on both sides. There is nothing else we can do. My concern is that we have been too quick to demonise Hamas and not recognise that it is a two-sided story. It is a story that will not be resolved without a two-state solution.

I will move on to our own citizens in Gaza and Palestine.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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My question is about the evacuation of our own citizens from Palestine and that region. We are one of the wealthiest countries in Europe. Does the Tánaiste not think it is time we had our own heavy lift capacity where we could go to any country in the world and evacuate our own citizens when they are in danger?

I will move on to the One China policy. I have constantly heard about this policy. Does anyone in government care about the constant threat that hangs over the democratically elected country of Taiwan? Does anybody take notice of what is going on with China constantly buzzing Taiwan to see how it will respond? At the end of the day we either respect democracy or we do not. If we respect democracy we should recognise Taiwan. We should open an embassy or representation office, as most other European countries have done, in Taiwan.

The Tánaiste mentioned the development of the system programme of €776 million. I wonder where all of this money goes. What oversight is there of all the money we are pumping into NGOs that might be used in the State if we needed it. It is time we had a look at that.

Article 13(11) of our Constitution is clear that, "No power or function conferred on the President by law shall be exercisable or performable by him save only on the advice of the Government." President Higgins criticised Ursula von der Leyen and what might be phrased as her solo run with respect to Europe. Did he not do exactly the same thing, or did he engage with Government before he made his statement, and did Government approve it? If not, is he not in breach of the Constitution? He has a responsibility. One person in Ireland speaks on foreign affairs, and I am looking at that person straight across the room from me. That is the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs. This is not the first time the President has gone off on a wild goose chase. He is either reined in and reminded of his responsibilities or the Government already approved of what he said. It is one or the other.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Tánaiste for attending. Before I start, I also reiterate our heartfelt condolences to Kim Damti's family and the family of Emily Hand. I remember them at a solidarity with Palestine protest in Naas last Wednesday. At the time there was still hope that Kim would be found alive. That, unfortunately, was not to be the case. I also warmly welcome the stance that Ireland, through both the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach, has taken with regard to Israel's behaviour. I do not doubt that was a quite difficult stance to take in a highly militarised EU and to speak out strongly about Israel's breaking of international law.

The Tánaiste spoke earlier about Ursula von der Leyen, who is a German citizen - she was born in Belgium, but she is German - and the intergenerational guilt Germany feels.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I was referring to Germany's policy and not the individual. I want to be clear about that. It was more Germany as a country.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I get that. There is also an intergenerational trauma that Israel no doubt feels because of the Holocaust. Ireland should be ready to play a bigger role in trying to find peace. We can talk about Hamas using human shields. Israel also uses human shields when it grabs land, Palestinians are displaced, and people of the Jewish faith are moved onto those lands. What are they only human shields? I would like Ireland to recognise the state of Palestine.

If Sinn Féin is in government, I hope it is something we will be doing. I say this because people need hope. The Palestinians need hope. They have been waiting for the past 30 years for this two-state solution that was promised and that they agreed to. It has not happened.

I think there is a meeting happening this afternoon in this regard. Ursula von der Leyen has to come out and apologise for what she said. There is no hierarchy on pain and suffering and upset. I believe she does have to come out and apologise for not saying the EU stands on the side of international law and humanitarianism. This must be what we have to pursue. We talk about our European values, and this is what they are about. I think Europe must take a bit of a stand back here because of the role it played in the trauma the Jewish people face.

What are we going to do about humanitarian corridors? The idea that the water would be switched off for 2.3 million people is unbelievable. It is unreal that a country, an occupying power, would say that it would reduce water. I am not going to say when I was going to say, but this is unbelievable. The water is being switched on now, but apparently it is coming back very slowly. It is only being switched on in southern Gaza. I used to work with people with disabilities. It has not been possible to move people with disabilities from the northern part of Gaza. Are they actually expected to die of thirst? Is this what Israel wants?

There are also around 5,000 women due to give birth in the next few weeks. These babies are being born into a slaughterhouse. Ireland has to play a much stronger role here. We do not carry the same guilt as the rest of Europe does. I saw something being said on the television last night about European countries having watched Jews being put on trains. No, they did not. Some of them were very quick to put them on trains themselves. The French police did it. It was not only the Nazis who sent the Jews off on trains to concentration camps.

We must get real about this situation. We cannot let this happen again. It keeps on happening. Every few years, we go back to some kind of peace, but it is not peace. The Palestinians are not experiencing peace during this. More children have been killed in Gaza over recent days than have been killed in Ukraine in the past year and a half. This is a war on children and we must be stronger. We do not have to speak with one voice. Ireland has to be strong enough to stand up and speak with a true voice here. We resonate with the people of Palestine because of our "To hell or to Connacht" experience and the intergenerational trauma we as a people have felt. Cromwell did not bomb us on our way to Connacht. Israel has bombed people on their way along human corridors. There are people trying to get to the south of Gaza. They were bombed by Israel.

We must be prepared to stand out. We must be prepared not to speak in one voice. We must be prepared to speak the truth to Israel. That country needs friends and it needs friends that will tell it the truth.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ardagh raised several issues. There must, ultimately, be a political solution to the whole Middle Eastern situation. Notwithstanding the difficulty and viability issues, we believe the two-state solution is the only one that can really give some degree or horizon of security, harmony, peace and co-existence because the territories we are talking about here are very small. No matter what the political configuration, people will, ultimately, have to learn to live in harmony with each other. We are talking about populations that are increasing. Since the Oslo Accords were agreed, the population in Gaza and the West Bank has gone up significantly.

On the point regarding having no direct conversation with Hamas, it is much more than just an organisation seeking national self-determination or independence or whatever. To me, it is clearly jihadist and pan-Islamic in its approach. It is very authoritarian. It is very repressive in respect of LGBT rights and what we would consider basic norms in democratic societies. One of the reasons we spoke to representatives of Iran yesterday was that even though they say they have no influence, the reality is they do have links to Hamas and fund and support it politically. They came out in celebration of what happened last Saturday week. They said it was the right thing to do and they support what they call the resistance. This is why I insisted to the foreign minister of Iran that hostages must be released immediately, and hostages from all countries and nationalities, and that there must be no regional escalation. The purpose of the call was to communicate this to him as our view and our perspective, sharing a wider European perspective. We will also be speaking to representatives of Türkiye and Qatar. They have their own channels to and links with Hamas as well. We do not talk directly to Hamas.

In our peace process, there first of all had to be a cessation of violence before Sinn Féin was allowed at the table; hence the Downing Street Declaration. There must also be recognition of the 1967 borders and the State of Israel, which Hamas has not signed up to. We have, however, spoken to those states that have direct influence with Hamas. We have spoken to some of the states and we will speak to more of them. I will also be speaking to the Lebanese defence minister tomorrow and the foreign minister of the United Arab Emirates, UAE, this evening. We already spoke to the Palestinian foreign minister last week. We will keep engaging with as many people as we possibly can.

It is correct to say the landscape has been changed for the next decade. There is no doubt about this. The challenge is that we need rational thinking here and reason to prevail. I think it was Senator O'Reilly who earlier said that, ultimately, anger is not a policy in itself, notwithstanding the terrible atrocities that have occurred. I am appalled at the levels of suffering that ordinary Gazans are enduring now. Whatever emerges from this situation, we want a cessation and a pause in hostilities to allow humanitarian aid in. I said earlier that there is a major issue with Hamas now in terms of its capacity to kill and murder Israeli civilians and breach Israeli security. This has happened. We must, therefore, acknowledge that reality. Proportionality, though, must apply in the pursuit of Hamas. The protection of the civilian population must be uppermost not just in Israel's consideration but in all our consideration. Hence the need for humanitarian corridors for fuel, food and all of that to get through.

Senator Craughwell spoke about what has happened and the rules of war. I think that he accepted that the cutting off of fuel, etc., was wrong. He did not condone it. He was correct in saying that in terms of the actions of Hamas, someone thought these through. There is a view on the jihadist side that some people think that creating mayhem is enough and that striking a blow and killing people creates a dynamic in itself. I do not understand fully the thought processes of people who would kill like this, those who would deliberately go into a house and just kill children. I cannot comprehend that.

There was a thought process there; someone thought it through. Some armchair general thought this was a good idea and sacrificed hundreds of young people in the name of martyrdom. I recently attended an event in west Cork where someone warned young people not to listen to armchair generals who do not go into the theatre of battle themselves, and to beware of politicians who urge others to go into the theatre of battle. All war kills young people and those who embark on war should always be conscious of that.

Regarding the comments Senator Craughwell made, the Ceann Comhairle was very clear that it is not appropriate to comment on any comments the President made or on the Presidency in the House. The same applies at committee level and I do not propose to do so this evening in response to that. I never have and I do not intend now to start to breach what has been a long-standing protocol in the House.

I share Deputy Cronin's absolute concerns for the people of Gaza. I visited the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem recently. I actually saw the Nazi plan which was a very dark and sad experience. It is extraordinary that such inhumanity happened to millions of people. This was organised - I do not think we can blame the French or anybody else. It was organised at central headquarters. The plan actually had a number for Ireland. They actually planned to go into Ireland and they stated the number of Jews they were going to take out of Ireland and exterminate. The plan was to exterminate all Jews in Europe. There was incredible material there. We should never get away from the fact that this was a centrally organised plan by the Nazi regime. It is a major factor in the Israelis' view of the world.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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The Palestinians paid the price for Europe's sins.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think the Palestinians should pay any price where they were not responsible.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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However, they have.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The point is that Palestine is not one homogeneous group. There are different military organisations within the Palestinian geographical area. There is Hamas and there are other jihadist organisations. They are raising the spectre. They believe in the same principle - the destruction of Israel. I only say this by way of explanation. I do not approve at all. I have my own views on proportionality and war. If we want to move this onto a political platform, we must seek to understand the motivation behind the different actors involved. Unfortunately, in more recent times this is seen through the security prism in Israel and now it has come to reality for them, in the scale and brutality of this attack. Many were decrying the fact that many in Israeli politics were arguing for increasingly stronger security and saying that we must defeat terror. They are now uppermost within Israeli politics unfortunately. However, this act has done more than anything to copper-fasten that thinking in Israeli politics which ultimately makes it far more difficult and challenging to get a resolution to this ultimately. I think that covers most of what was asked.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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What about the state of Palestine?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Government position on that is clear. We have said we are prepared to do that. It is a judgment call as to timing but also as to impact on-----

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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It has not even become a trope now-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am trying to answer the question.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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----- about whether Israel has a right to defend itself. Does Palestine have the right to defend itself? Nobody is coming to the aid of the people of Palestine to help them defend themselves from bombs coming from-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Ireland has probably been the strongest supporter of the Palestinian people. The late Brian Lenihan Snr. was the first to call for the Palestinians' right to a homeland.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Everybody has a right to defend themselves, do they not?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Every state, under international law, has a right to defend itself. People have the right to defend themselves. However, Hamas is not a state.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I know Hamas is not a state; Hamas is a-----

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I join the Tánaiste and calling for all violence to cease straightaway. The suffering is immense, intense and shocking. I also call on Israel to pause what it is doing. The Tánaiste is right; this must pause now. As he said in his opening remarks, this is an incredibly dark period and it will get darker, and the prospects of regional escalation are very real. He said he spoke to the Iranian foreign minister; I am not sure if he can tell us what he said to him. I believe the Iranians are the big players here and are very influential. I hope Iran and all the other countries the Tánaiste mentioned will step up and do what they can to try to stop this. The first question is what the Iranian foreign minister said to the Tánaiste.

We cannot forget about the awful violence in Ukraine which has gone off the front pages of the newspapers in the last few days because of what is happening in Gaza and Israel. In his opening remarks the Tánaiste said that its importance to our interests as a State is immense. He said "Ukraine is fighting to protect the Europe that we wish to continue to live in." I asked him to expand on that. Is he saying that the way of life we have here is at risk because of what might happen if Ukraine capitulates and is defeated?

Finally, where do we go now after the consultative forum?

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Both in the Tánaiste's statement and in the motion due to be taken tomorrow we are calling for a "humanitarian pause". Why are we calling for a humanitarian pause as opposed to an outright ceasefire? I know there was an exchange on the matter but I would like to get a better understanding of it. The Tánaiste asked Deputy Carthy if Israel has a right to pursue Hamas for the 7 October attacks. Let me be clear; I feel Israel has that right but I do not for a second believe that war crimes should be reciprocal in any way shape or form. If the Tánaiste believes, as I do, that Hamas should be held to account for its hideous violence of 7 October, does the Government believe that the Israeli Government should equally be held to account for the war crimes it is inflicting on the mass population of Gaza at the moment, with the withholding of water and removal of electricity, the collective punishment, the dropping of bomb after bomb which extends to about 8,000 at this point? Should Israel be held to account for telling one group of citizens to go from one place to another and then bombing them along the way? Does the Irish State believe that a form of ethnic cleansing is currently taking place in Gaza?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Tánaiste for coming today. The starting point for this discussion must be the attacks on Israel on Saturday, 7 October. I welcome that there now seems to be consensus that that was an abhorrent event. Some representatives were later than others in condemning that, but that seems to be happening now. I understand the traditional sympathy for Palestine in Ireland. I share that and it is reasonable. However, there is almost a truism that no one can condemn Hamas or express an opinion on the attacks without also listing what the Israelis have done. We can talk about international law and some of the many things that they have got wrong and some things they have done which are out of order.

It does not seem to work the other way. It seems to be fine to slam Israel and march outside the embassy and send email complaints to us. I have received hundreds of emails, as I am sure we all have in recent days. I searched in the emails. It was a template email and I did "CTRL+F" on it. The word "Hamas" does not appear once in the email. I responded to a few of them saying "Thanks for your email. Do Israeli lives not count?". That is the tenor of some of the debate. If people had marched in international capitals outside American embassies after 9-11, people would have rightly asked what was happening here, and why we were condemning the place that has been attacked. Why are we going out to march against embassies? Why are people outside the Israeli embassy in Dublin and trampling on flowers that were laid after 1,400 of its citizens were raped, murdered, taken hostage and carried away across the border?

I think I am a fair-minded person. I understand Israel has not covered itself in glory in how it has managed Palestine in the past. I completely understand that but let us be real here. Abhorrent war crimes have been committed and terrorism brought to the door. As the Tánaiste said, these are Israel's worst fears realised and the reaction in many quarters - I am actually not sure what it says but I am reading between the lines - is not saying something very supportive at all. That is a shocking reflection of the general debate around this. We have to get away from that "Israel bad, Palestine good" narrative and actually look at the picture and say there is fault and right and wrong on all sides. Let us at least try to have a balanced debate.

Senator Craughwell spoke earlier about people getting into a room. This was not organic. This was not a couple of militia running across the border. This was planned, in a room. So was the Wannsee Conference. That conference took place in a room when the Holocaust, the Shoah, as the Tánaiste has referred to, was planned when a group of people sat around a table and planned what happened. I was at Auschwitz earlier this summer and having been somewhere like that, it never leaves you. I understand. I do not defend or justify but I understand why a state like Israel would be so reticent, cautious, security conscious and anxious to defend its borders. What happened, as has been said, was its worst nightmare made real. As I said, I think I am a fair-minded person. I understand the support for Palestine and I share that in many cases but I just do not understand why the reaction cannot transcend that for one moment and say this is an appalling attack on civilians. Let us all be consistent in that.

Moving onto the geopolitics of it, "cui bono?" is always a question to ask in these cases. The movement for stabilisation and the relationship of Israel with other states, not least Saudi Arabia, was beginning to normalise. That is potentially in jeopardy now. The focus has been taken off the Ukraine conflict and the continued eastern European annexation by Russia of states in the Crimea, Georgia, into Ukraine and further on, which we are all familiar with from this committee. Focus has been taken off that. I suspect there are higher-level actors participating in this and encouraging and sponsoring it, like Iran and Russia. It is not too hard to join the dots. There is the possibility of a northern front with Hezbollah being involved. I do not know if the Tánaiste is in a position to share any thoughts on that in terms of the wider geopolitics of it. Is this a move? Is this about inflicting turmoil on a whole other region for the sake of a wider chessboard that is being played by other actors?

I will move on from the Middle East briefly to talk about the consultative forum. I welcome the fact that the Tánaiste brought to Cabinet this morning-----

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Will do.

Cathal Berry (Kildare South, Independent)
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I have a couple of very brief questions. I thank the Tánaiste and his team for coming in today. We are aware that there are a lot of demands on his time at the moment so we very much appreciate his insights. First, he mentioned that Hamas actually waged war on Israel, which nobody else has really picked up on nationally. It has declared war on Israel. I would be grateful for the Tánaiste's assessment on this. If Israel unilaterally embarked on a ceasefire, would Hamas reciprocate or would it continue attacking Israel? That is the first question. Second, what is Tánaiste's assessment as to where we will be in a week's time, from a geopolitical point of view? Does he see the ground offensive going in? I would be grateful for the his insights as he is the most recent person to visit the main players over there.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Stanton spoke first there, agreeing with the need for a humanitarian pause. The term "humanitarian pause" is a standard term in conflict and has meaning within the international framework governing conflict and so forth to allow aid in the first instance.

The conversation with the Iranian foreign minister took about 50 minutes. There was no resiling from Iran's position in terms of the atrocity that happened. I think it is fair to say that it saw that very much as part of the "resistance". His position was then to juxtapose that with the thousands killed in Palestine over the decades. That is an important point to make as to where they are coming from. They essentially support what is happening. They have said this publicly. Iran is a significant regional player here. The Minister was also very clear about what would happen if there was not a pullback on the Israeli side. He said he was not advocating this and did not have influence over the main actors but has met them. He has travelled to the region and would have met with Hezbollah and Hamas and his takeaway is that we are hours away from a significant extension of the conflict. This was his presentation of the issues to me. That could mean a number of things. We have to stand back and interpret that, take it back and discuss it with our own colleagues in Europe and so on. As to whether that will happen or not is a different question, which Deputy Berry asked. Nonetheless, that is what was said, in essence. We discussed a whole range of issues. There is no sense of condemnation of the Hamas atrocity at all. Rather, the emphasis was on communicating to me that he felt, from his discussions with all the regional actors, that this could strengthen or broaden out into the regions.

Our own sense is that this has not happened yet. We do not have a sense from the various people we are talking to in Lebanon that there has been a significant ratcheting up. There has been a certain amount of exchange of fire but there would appear to be a desire, on both sides, for restraint but we will see. There are no guarantees here, and a lot will unfold in the coming days. We have to work very hard on this. I have said to the Iranian foreign minister that there is an obligation on all those who have influence, or who may have influence, to do everything they possibly can to prevent regional spread of this conflict.

In terms of Ukraine, when I talk about the importance to our State, I am referring to the importance to our values. I am also referring to its importance in the context of the UN charter in terms sovereignty and territorial integrity and its importance to Europe and to members of the European Union. We have concerns about what is going on all over the world, in terms of the various coups d'etatin the Sahel region in Africa, the involvement of the Wagner Group in that region in providing security to leaders who came to power through coups d'etatand so on. There is a broader picture which is very worrying, in terms of global disruption and the geopolitical situation.

The question was asked, where now for the consultative forum? I want to pay tribute to Professor Louise Richardson, but I will deal with the broader issues later. I will reflect on the report. There are issues that arose from the forum that I will take to Government and there will be a debate in the Dáil shortly.

Deputy Gannon asked about the humanitarian pause. I have explained what it is and would contend that it is a standard term. To be honest, there is a connection here to Deputy Berry's question. A ceasefire has completely different connotations in the context of Israel's right to pursue Hamas in some shape or form, but there is also the fact that Hamas is still firing rockets into Israel. Would it declare a ceasefire? I do not know, but my guess is that it would not. There has been an international call for action, which might have gone unnoticed by members of this committee, by Hamas and others. There has been a call for action internationally.

The International Criminal Court, ICC, has jurisdiction in determining breaches of international law. Obviously, it is early days yet but I am sure the ICC will be focusing in on this as well. On a related matter, Ireland has never been slow to use international fora to hold any country to account, including Israel. We made a very lengthy legal submission to the International Court of Justice, ICJ, in respect of the occupation. A process was begun at the UN General Assembly in respect of a reasoned opinion and Ireland's presentation is robust, strong and intellectually powerful. We are robust in our presentation and there is a consistency in terms of how we approach issues in international fora.

The perspective of Deputy Lawless is very interesting. He makes some valid points about how the debate is presented domestically. That is why I endeavoured to be open with the committee earlier. I know that different people are coming to this from different perspectives but the tragedy is that young people die, as the Chairman has said, all of the time in conflict situations and in war. Our thoughts are with the children and young people of Gaza. The situation in Gaza prior to this was not satisfactory at all. That said, in more recent times, paradoxically, many more Gazans were working in Israel than had previously been the case. It is a fact that many more were working in Israel and the same was true of people in the West Bank. However, that does not in any way justify the framework that was governing both the West Bank and Gaza prior to this.

The Deputy is right about the embassy. I worry about the fact that people can get so close to an embassy and can daub it with paint. The people who work in an embassy are diplomats of a state. We have diplomats all over the world. Our first obligation to our diplomats is to protect them because many of them are in difficult locations. Diplomacy is the last bastion in terms of maintaining some degree of civility between states. Having an embassy in a country does not mean one endorses that country's positions. We have to be extremely careful that we protect embassies in this country. Our security services and our gardaí have to be very alert to that because it is a fundamental tenet of diplomatic relations. We can protest respectfully but protests that have an intimidatory dimension to them should be condemned. Ambassadors are representatives of states. They will accept protests and submissions but, ultimately, they are just civil servants, people working in the public service for a state. Sometimes that is not widely understood. We have to keep putting that point across.

The Deputy asked an interesting question as to whether there is a wider chessboard. Of course there is a wider chessboard and that is where the real malign forces are. There are people who want to see continuing mayhem and disruption in the Middle East. There is a power play going on between different states and so forth. That is a factor and the Palestinians are suffering because of that. It is not all about Israel. I have disagreed with Israeli policy over the years and with its approach, but it is not all Israel either. There are other states in the region that are relevant. Some are genuinely trying to get a resolution but others are not. There is a bigger power play going on. The Palestinians are collateral damage in the wider regional power play that is going on and we can see that manifest itself in the current situation as well.

Deputy Berry asked a question about a ceasefire. I do not believe Hamas will declare a ceasefire right now. There are different perspectives on what will happen next but I think there will be a ground offensive of some sort. That is just an observation. The precise nature of that offensive is unclear, in terms of how an incursion into Gaza will manifest itself. There will be attempts to try to dismantle Hamas military facilities, hardware and so on. I really worry, vis-à-visthe points made by the Chairman, about the children. The children of Gaza are particularly vulnerable. From a psychological perspective, what they are experiencing now must be horrific, with bombing, mayhem, death and destruction all around them. I am very concerned about health services in Gaza, about hospitals running out of vital equipment and fuel and that has to be a priority. As I said earlier, water is another serious concern. There is an urgent need to get humanitarian aid into Gaza. That is the first thing that we need to do. The most effective way to do that is to have a humanitarian pause, which will allow that to happen. We are in a very dangerous situation now. The Gazan population is really at risk of dehydration and disease because of the absence of the fundamental basics of water and nutrition, never mind the danger of death from bombings and so forth. Our immediate focus, as we interact with others, is on getting humanitarian aid into Gaza as quickly as possible. The Chairman is correct when he says that young people are suffering more than most. We saw that with the music concert-----

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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It is not a supplementary question. I asked whether the Irish State believes that ethnic cleansing is taking place in Gaza. Does the forced removal of 1.1 million people from the north to the south of Gaza constitute a form of ethnic cleansing? To add a further point, the absence-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Again, there are international definitions as to what constitutes ethnic cleansing but I do not believe there is a premeditated attempt to eliminate the Palestinian population.

I think there is a different issue in terms of proportionality and bombing urban conurbations. What happens when you do that is that innocent people get killed and I do not agree with that. I think we need to be precise in our language.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I fully agree.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not believe there is ethnic cleansing in the sense of how we have experienced ethnic cleansing, for example, the Holocaust, Rwanda and other such locations.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Again, I thank the committee for inviting me to address it today in my role as Minister for Defence. This is a welcome opportunity to discuss the ongoing transformation process and positive measures which have been implemented in the Defence Forces. Before I do so, may I take a moment to acknowledge the bravery and dedication of our Defence Forces. An essential element of their work is the contribution they have made to peacekeeping for more than 50 years. I take this opportunity to put on the record my appreciation and that of the Government for the work being done by our peacekeepers, wherever they may be in the world but, particularly at this time, to those in the Middle East. I also acknowledge the vital role played by their families, for many of whom the past ten days have been an especially worrying time. I assure them and the members of this committee that their safety and security is our paramount concern. The Defence Forces personnel in the Middle East have been following UN advice at all times and will continue to do so.

The work of our peacekeepers, and the ongoing work of all our Defence Forces members, illustrates why it is so important to ensure the transformation of the Defence Forces into a fit-for-purpose organisation to defend the State and meet the challenges of today and into the future. It is for this reason I published the strategic framework on the transformation of the Defence Forces in September. As I have stated previously, my priority within this transformation is culture change above all else. The framework consolidates into one document the immediate actions from the Commission on the Defence Forces report and the report of the independent review group on dignity and equality issues in the Defence Forces, alongside the efforts under way in recruitment and retention and in enhancing the physical working environment and equipment of our Defence personnel. The framework has appropriate governance and reporting mechanisms, to oversee this transformation and bring transparency and accountability to the work. In tandem with the transformation in the Defence Forces, an organisational capability review of the Department of Defence was undertaken during 2021 and 2022 to build capability for the future. Implementation of the recommendations is under way and will continue through 2024.

The Commission on the Defence Forces, published in February 2022, proposed 69 main recommendations and, overall, there were 130 recommendations. The Government approved in July 2022 a move to level of ambition 2, as set out in the Commission on the Defence Forces. This will result in the defence budget rising from €1.1 billion to €1.5 billion by 2028, the largest increase in defence funding in the history of the State.

The Government also approved a high-level action plan which set out 38 early actions. These progress a number of the key recommendations from the commission’s report while also providing a solid foundation on which to build a successful transformation programme. To date, approximately 95% of the 38 early actions have been completed. The detailed implementation plan for the commission’s full 130 recommendations is currently being finalised, and I anticipate it will be published later this month. While the plan has not yet been published, work is under way on a third of the commission’s recommendations, with ten of the recommendations already fully completed.

An implementation oversight group and a high-level steering board have been established to oversee and drive the transformation. I take this opportunity to thank the members of both boards for their active engagement and commitment throughout the process.

The report of the independent review group, IRG, which was established to examine dignity and equality issues in the Defence Forces, was published following Government approval in March 2023. The report made recommendations across a number of areas, which the Government accepted. I want to focus on two specific recommendations here today.

The Government approved in July 2023, the establishment of a tribunal of inquiry, pursuant to the provisions of the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921, to examine the effectiveness of the complaints processes in the Defence Forces to address workplace issues relating to discrimination, bullying, harassment, sexual harassment and sexual misconduct. I continue to consult the Attorney General in respect of terms of reference for the tribunal. I have met a number of stakeholders, and draft terms of reference were provided to a number of interested groups and individuals.

I received a number of submissions on the nature and format of the statutory inquiry. I concluded that an open, independent and transparent process is the best way to examine the issues raised. I will revert to Government seeking approval for the terms of reference and the appointment of a judge to chair the tribunal. In addition, as part of the Government’s immediate response to the IRG report, it approved the establishment of an external oversight body for the Defence Forces to drive the necessary culture change throughout the Defence Forces and to enhance transparency and accountability. This is an essential part of the transformation of the current workplace to support current serving members. The external oversight body is chaired by Professor Brian MacCraith. Its terms of reference were published on 12 July last, and to date the body has met on 11 occasions. I met the chair last week to get the latest update on its work.

Implementation of the provisions of the working time directive for Defence Forces personnel, where appropriate, remains a key priority. The strategic framework for transformation provides for an agreed civil-military management policy position on its implementation to be finalised by the end 2023. The policy position has been informed by extensive work undertaken by the military authorities. As the committee is aware, 80% of the everyday work of the Defence Forces is already in compliance with the working time directive. In addition, recent European case law on military service has been clear that certain activities, due to their specific nature, can be considered outside the scope of the directive.

As its guiding principle, the policy for implementing the provisions of the directive will ensure the fundamental requirement for appropriate rights and protections with regard to health and safety are afforded to serving members while also ensuring the Defence Forces can continue to fulfil their essential State functions. This is a complex matter given the specific nature of some military activities. In this regard, dialogue has been continuing with the Permanent Defence Force, PDF, representative associations and civilian-military management, which has gained momentum in recent months.

Without doubt, the introduction of a robust system to record daily hours of attendance is an essential element for the Defence Forces in ensuring the provisions of the working time directive are properly afforded to serving members. To this end, I can confirm that Defence Forces management is progressing the introduction of an interim time and attendance system on a pilot basis which will inform future systems.

The Government remains committed to a policy of equal opportunity for men and women throughout the Defence Forces to increase capability and to better reflect the society from which they are drawn and serve. As of 31 August 2023, 549 personnel or 7% of Permanent Defence Force personnel are women. While this percentage is not satisfactory, it is not out of kilter with standards across international militaries. For example, the percentage of women in the United Kingdom Armed Forces is 11.5%. The Chief of Staff has signalled his commitment to increasing the female ratio to 9% this year, and the roll-out of focused initiatives to attract more women to join the Defence Forces has already begun.

The national unemployment rate is running at 4.2%. It is an extremely competitive labour market. This is feeding into the recruitment challenges in the Defence Forces and in the Naval Service in particular. While acknowledging these challenges, this Government continues to work to counter these difficulties, and a suite of recruitment measures have been implemented.

Starting rates of pay in the Defence Forces compare well to comparable rates of pay across the public service and the private sector. A school-leaver cadet on commissioning is paid €41,962. After two years, that officer is promoted to lieutenant and his or her pay rises to €47,245. Where a graduate joins, the pay rate on commissioning begins at €47,245. The maximum age of entry into the PDF has recently been increased to 29 years for general service recruits and certain other entry ranks. Other measures to improve recruitment numbers include some flexibility on fitness test scoring and, on a pilot basis for six months, the pausing of psychometric testing for Naval Service general service recruitment, with a review thereafter. Furthermore, external human resource expertise has recently been engaged to validate the current recruitment process, with an initial focus on the Naval Service.

In addition to considerable progress on pay and other retention measures, I recently announced the commencement of private secondary medical care to all Defence Forces ranks. This is a significant enhancement to the overall benefits package for personnel and is unique in the public sector. It continues the significant progress being made by the Government in improving the employment conditions of Defence Forces personnel.

The Naval Service has recently adopted a three-ship posture, with two ships operational and another ship on standby, in order to streamline operations, bolster existing capabilities and ensure optimal resource allocation in the Naval Service. Despite ongoing recruitment and retention challenges, the Naval Service continues to conduct maritime surveillance and fisheries patrols in the Irish exclusive economic zone, EEZ. The Irish Naval Service Fisheries Monitoring Centre in Haulbowline continues to monitor vessels in the EEZ remotely on a 24-7 basis, augmented by aerial monitoring and surveillance of the EEZ by the Air Corps maritime patrol squadron using the two CASA CN-235 maritime patrol aircraft, which are being replaced with two new C-295 maritime patrol aircraft equipped with state-of-the-art surveillance and communication equipment.

The recent successful interagency operation conducted using naval and Air Corps assets and interagency personnel, including the Army Ranger Wing, illustrates the effectiveness of intelligence-led operations. The allocation of €1.23 billion in budget 2024 further demonstrates this Government’s commitment to defence. This funding will facilitate the ongoing investment in our defence capabilities and allow crucial progress in the transformation of the Defence Forces, as outlined in the strategic framework.

This is just an overview of the comprehensive work being undertaken in respect of defence and I welcome any questions or comments from committee members.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Tánaiste for his statement. I send my best wishes to our 342 personnel in Camp Shamrock in south Lebanon. I am sure there are contingency plans to get them out in the event of a real emergency, but they are well-trained soldiers and one would hope they are having a stabilising influence on the region. How many of the soldiers stationed in south Lebanon are on their first, second or third overseas deployment? A great deal of important knowledge about the local culture and geography is picked up on overseas missions.

Does the Tánaiste have an update on the terms and conditions of the IRG report?

I went through the Tánaiste’s opening statement last night and “transformation” was mentioned at least ten times. I might have missed one. Regarding the budget, something that struck me and many members of the Defence Forces – there are many of them in Kildare where I live – was the lack of attention paid to the Defence Forces. Many of them referred to the working time directive. The one paragraph of his opening statement that the Tánaiste did not read out goes: “To this end, I can confirm that Defence Forces management is progressing the introduction of an interim time and attendance system on a pilot basis which will inform future systems.” I do not blame him for not reading it out.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I read it out.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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No, the Tánaiste did not. He skipped it. He went from the paragraph beginning “Without doubt” to the rest of it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, I did not.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I am sure it was an accident.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I suppose there is a recording of the meeting anyway.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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It is difficult to believe that “Defence Forces management is progressing” the introduction. The system is not even at the point of being introduced. It sounds like the Government has not even started. There was no mention of it in the budget, so it sounds like we are nowhere near to introducing it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is not a funding issue.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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It was disappointing.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will explain later.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Why was psychometric testing for general service recruitment to the Naval Service paused? I am not sure that dropping standards is the way to go.

I was surprised when I read the information on starting wages. They are quite good and we need to talk about them more in order to encourage more people to join.

With the size of our coastline, it is difficult to believe that we only have two ships operational. Are they-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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For the Deputy’s information, I will clarify something about pay. A general recruit coming out of the leaving certificate, on completion of training, will be on €38,000 in year 1, €39,000 in year 2 and €40,700 in year 3. I spoke about school-leaver cadets and graduates. I am giving this information for the sake of completeness, as it was not in the original statement.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. Regarding recruitment and retention, how many enlisted personnel per year have the opportunity to rise to officer rank? I am referring to people who, for example, applied to cadet school but did not make it and slipped through the net but who, after joining the enlisted ranks, turned out to be really good soldiers. I would not be suggesting a quota, but the Defence Forces should consider taking people from the enlisted ranks into officer ranks. It would help with retention because it would show that there was a realistically attainable route for enlisted personnel to move up. The Tánaiste spoke about lieutenants and above but did not refer to non-commissioned officers, NCOs.

I will leave it at that for the moment.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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What I said was: “To this end, I can confirm that Defence Forces management is progressing the introduction of an interim time and attendance system on a pilot basis which will inform future systems.” For completeness-----

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I thought the Tánaiste skipped that paragraph, but maybe he did not. It is a paragraph that I would not have blamed him for skipping because it-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It has been a long day and the Deputy might not have caught every paragraph.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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The paragraph is so weak.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will explain it to the Deputy. Sorry, a Chathaoirligh.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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In what way was it not a good encounter?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Cathaoirleach mean in terms of the communication with the representative body?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Cathaoirleach said that the experience with the representative association was not a pleasant one.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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A comprehensive written update on all 38 early actions was published on 23 March last. This included a detailed status update, in tabular form, for each of the 38 early actions and outlined what had been achieved. That was fully transparent and was made available publicly.

We said that 95% of the early actions had been completed. There is a difference between the 38 early actions and the 130 recommendations. It was always the case that there was going to be detailed implementation plans-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Well it is 95% of 38, I was just making a point. That was the level of detail published on 23 March because the high-level action plan identified 38 early actions. Parallel to this, it provided the necessary building blocks to develop a detailed implementation plan and the establishment of the oversight group. I have no difficulty with the committee having an oversight role and access to all details. I want to do the best for the Defence Forces. There is a need for balance and perspective. To be fair, Deputy Cronin referenced the pay rates, which she feels are reasonable for people starting off. There is almost a difficulty in acknowledging that; people move on quickly. Those rates are comparable with, if not better than, most starting rates in the private sector.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Tánaiste, please be honest.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I want to finish my contribution and then the Senator can contribute. It is not acceptable that I be interrupted in this way. I know people coming out of college and what they are getting. This is a good thing because we want to attract people into the Defence Forces. It needs to be acknowledged that these pay increases have improved matters again. We need to do more.

Recently, secondary healthcare was granted to all enlisted personnel. This is a substantial advance. There have been no clarion calls from any representative body saying that this is a great thing. RACO had its views on it, but I will leave them where they are. It did not publicly say yea or nay. The fact of the matter is that for the first time ever in the history of the State, enlisted personnel now have access to private healthcare. That needs to be acknowledged as a prudent contribution and enhancement.

I would invite the committee to visit the barracks around the country or go to Haulbowline where the members will see first hand-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----the manifestation of the physical investment that has happened over the last while , and continues to happen. There are 120 capital projects under way in respect of our Defence Forces. That is open; people can see it. I have no difficulty with the committee meeting people in every barracks who will outline for the members the capital projects that are either at design stage or other stages of completion. The committee has already visited some sites.

On the issue----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This brings me to the core point I was going to make. I will be meeting RACO and I will be making this point. What struck me most and worried me most in RACO's presentation to the committee was the concern articulated about my position of me saying that I prioritise cultural change above all else. RACO articulated an unhappiness with that. There has been some resistance to the idea that we need to transform the culture within our Defence Forces. This arises from many of the issues that resurfaced in the IRG report. This goes to the heart of morale in the Defence Forces. It goes to the heart of safety and a safe workplace environment in the Defence Forces. I was disappointed with the stance RACO took. I was surprised the committee did not pick up on that.

When the report was published, we had sessions here and Dáil debates. I was struck by how quickly afterwards the Government and I are being criticised, not to the exclusion of everything else, but for making statements to the effect that a primary consideration was cultural change. That is now being criticised. It is almost as if, because it happened a couple months ago, we should move on. Some of this goes to the heart of the issue. We need to be very open about this.

Because we did the strategic overarching framework to put everything together so that there would not be duplication between the different reports, there may be a fear that somehow the commission's objectives would be slowed down. That is not the case. There will be a further distribution of increased levels of national development plan, for example, to the capital, but that has to be determined. A lot of work needs to be done on procurement of the bigger-ticket items like radar. The first Airbus C295 plane came in to Baldonnel last June. As I understand it from a tweet yesterday, the second is also there now. These are two significant additions with a lot of high-powered equipment.

The issue facing the Defence Forces is that of recruitment and retention. This is not something that began today or yesterday, but it is an ongoing issue. Somebody asked about psychometric testing. It is not about dropping standards. When I became Minister eight or nine months ago, I learned then that the first thing a young person who might be interested in joining the Army has to do is the psychometric test. I did not think it was the most encouraging or welcoming sort of opener. If we look at the numbers of people who apply, we can see that the conversion rate is poor. We need to work on this. That is why we brought in the human resources organisation because we need to try to do things on recruitment. It is not about dropping standards, but I would look at it through different prism. If somebody wants to join our Defence Forces and is 80% there from the physical fitness point of view, our attitude now should be to work with that person who wants to join the force and get them to the 100% as opposed to weeding them out because they are not cutting it.

I also think we have to look at the psychology of 18- to 20-year-olds today, who are much more mobile than 20-year-olds of ten or 20 years ago. How do we get them to think of a career in the Naval Service, Air Corps or the Defence Forces? There are wonderful opportunities in the Defence Forces in terms of courses, programmes, progression and so on. I accept the Chair's point about morale generally. A lot has been done, but a lot more remains to be done. The recruitment side is where, to me, the big challenge is. The Chair put his finger on something with the working time directive. However, we have gone to the military looking for a system. We are now agreed that we are going to develop a system to facilitate the introduction of the working time directive. There is still more work to be done. There has been intensive work on the working time directive. It is important. It has not been slow under my watch.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is a question of industrial relations. To be fair to the representative bodies, they have legitimate issues. We will have to engage with them further.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I have several questions that have not been answered.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy asked about the IRG terms of reference.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I asked how many of those in Lebanon are on their first trip overseas, and how many are on their second or third trip. There was also my suggestion about retention. How many enlisted personnel get an opportunity to join the officer class?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are 30 who will be going into a class next week. Approximately every two years there is a new class of non-----

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Is that 30 moved from enlisted?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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They are going on a course to become officers, yes. I think that is biannual. I can check that for the Deputy and get the precise details, but there is progression.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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There is a route for people to take.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. The other point is that there are figures for length of experience and previous tours and so on. Quite a number with experience of previous tours are on the current UNIFIL and UNDOF missions. I normally have those figures when I am seeing them off. I was with Senator Wilson recently. I hope he does not mind me saying that his son is serving. Ordinarily in the speech we outline the person who has the most missions overseas. There are one or two with ten or 11 missions. There is a lot of experience onboard. There will be people with first-time experience as well. That is fair.

We are nearly there with the IRG terms of reference. We have had a further round of meetings. I want to get the commission established. I think it is important that the terms of reference are reasonably tight enough that we get a timely tribunal of inquiry, but that we do not have one that goes on for a decade. That is always a casualty of terms of reference that are far too wide. We agreed with those representing survivors and victims that it would be a statutory public inquiry. That is where we are. I apologise. The Chair provoked me into a good exchange and I appreciate that.

Cathal Berry (Kildare South, Independent)
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I will be as brief as I can. I again thank the Tánaiste and his team for attending. I commend our troops including Private Wilson out in the Middle East. As bad as the situation in the Middle East is, one can imagine how bad it would be if UNIFIL and UNDOF were not there. I extend a massive commendation to our troops out there who are doing a terrific job.

I acknowledge the improvement from a medical enhancement point of view for enlisted personnel. It is definitely a positive. The second Airbus 295 arrived in Baldonnel yesterday. That is an investment of €230 million, which is good. In approximately 20 months' time we will have a third one in the family. We will have a third Airbus 295 - a freighter version. That is the first time in my life I can remember a major capability jump for the Defence Forces. We will be able to deploy troops and vehicles for evacuation operations or whatever is required. There is some positivity. There was also a comment in the briefing note about a proposal to increase the maximum entry age to 35. I think that would be a good idea in light of what An Garda Síochána did last week. It is certainly worth considering. I will focus my questions on funding. Page 2 of the opening statement outlines that there is a move from €1.1 billion to €1.5 billion by 2028. That is the situation, but the then Minister, Deputy Coveney, was very clear when he appeared before the committee that it is €1.5 billion in 2028 at January 2022 figures. He clearly suggested that €2 billion should be the target figure for 2028. That should be the level of ambition. My concern is that we will fall well short if we continue on the current trajectory. It is six budgets. We are two budgets in and we are still only at €1.23 billion. I ask the Tánaiste to bear that one in mind.

The Tánaiste also mentioned that additional funding is likely to come on stream from the national development plan that was not mentioned in the budget. It would be useful if he could point out what that additional funding could or should be.

I also have a question about the high-level implementation plan. I think there is one due for publication at the end of the month. I will repeat what the Chair has said. That is an ideal opportunity to get very specific with regard to the implementation of the Commission of the Defence Forces. To have funded, targeted and timelined implementations would certainly help from that perspective. It is that time of the year when there may be some money left over at the end of the budget. I am not sure where we are. Are we on profile, or above or below?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Deputy asking about this year's budget?

Cathal Berry (Kildare South, Independent)
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Yes, for the end of the year. I know with the recent operation there was an issue with serviceability of helicopters. I know the UK is looking to sell five brand new EC135 helicopters for £4 million each. If there is money left over, there is certainly a good option out there. The current EC135s are 20 years old. If you were driving a 20-year-old car you would know about it. There is a lot of air mileage on those as well. If there is money left over, there are five EC135 helicopters available in the UK. It would certainly help from a military and diplomacy point of view too considering the changes in No. 10.

My last point is a little technical and specific. An article by Ken Foxe appeared last January. I think it was in the Irish Independent. He wrote that he had seen an exchange of correspondence between the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and the Department of Defence in which an attempt was made to take back €32 million of the Defence Vote for 2023. This committee has not seen this exchange of correspondence.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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When was this?

Cathal Berry (Kildare South, Independent)
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It was for 2023, so it was some time this year. There is a suggestion that €32 million was withdrawn from the Defence Vote. First, was such an attempt made and is this article true? Second, was that attempt successful? This relates to the pay savings because the number of troops is below-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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When was the article written?

Cathal Berry (Kildare South, Independent)
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It was written in January of this year.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Of 2023.

Cathal Berry (Kildare South, Independent)
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Yes.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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He was talking about 2022, was it?

Cathal Berry (Kildare South, Independent)
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No, the 2023 funding.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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So that is the budget from October 2022.

Cathal Berry (Kildare South, Independent)
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Correct. The budget from October 2022 left us with the impression that the funding was X, but his understanding is that it was X minus €32 million. That would be of concern to this committee, if it were true. Is it the case that an attempt was made, and was the attempt successful? Can we get copies of that correspondence? I presume the reporter got it on foot of a freedom of information request. It would be unusual. I repeat the Chair's point that it would be unusual if the oversight committee did not have sight of that correspondence.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This was during my arrival but I was informed. As the ceiling of 9,500 was not being achieved, the perspective of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform was that the current budget should go to fund the existing numbers. If that was to be exceeded, it could be funded up to the ceiling of 9,500. In 2023 the Department was funded for 8,600. Prior that it would have been funded for 9,500. However, the money was then vired for capital. The Department did not lose it. It was used for capital purposes, given that it would not be used for current purposes in the sense that it would have been surplus because you would not have had the numbers.

Cathal Berry (Kildare South, Independent)
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That is a useful clarification. The money was not recouped by the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. It was used for alternative purposes.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, as capital.

Cathal Berry (Kildare South, Independent)
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There is a quotation from-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We are trying to regularise. We want to get capital to be more straightforward.

Cathal Berry (Kildare South, Independent)
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The Secretary General of that Department, Ms Jacqui McCrum - fair play to her - described it as a bombshell suggestion and stated that €32 million was the most likely figure. She went on to state, “It is my very strong view that it is grossly inequitable to seek to change these arrangements midway through the National Development Plan." I am just seeking to clarify that.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That was part of budget negotiations of 2022 and into 2023, which came in in December. It is as I said. I am told the money was used to go into capital. I think that has been publicly stated.

Cathal Berry (Kildare South, Independent)
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I thank the Tánaiste for the clarification.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I join others in thanking the Tánaiste for reiterating his appreciation and that of the Government for the work done by our peacekeepers throughout the world but especially at this time in the Middle East. I commend him also on noting the role their families play in their duties. The peacekeepers’ present circumstances are particularly worrying for them, and that reflects much of the representations that I, and I am sure others, had over the weekend regarding those, such as Senator Wilson's son, who are on active duty and, indeed, those who went out yesterday evening. I was glad to hear the Tánaiste's assurance to the committee, and by extension to those families, relating to their safety and security. It is, obviously, a matter of concern and one on which he will keep in touch with the UN.

I convey also our appreciation and congratulations to all concerned within the Defence Forces for their work in the recent drugs seizure off the coast of Cork.

We welcome the movement towards the presentation of terms of reference to the Cabinet and the Government leading to a tribunal on dignity and equality issues. Will the Tánaiste indicate the timeline associated with that work?

In respect of other matters concerning the commission and morale, we recall that in the most recent election this was a big issue for members of the Defence Forces and their families. On entering government and producing a programme for Government, the Government committed to putting a commission in place, recognising its recommendations and agreeing on some of the options that would be put forward. It is incumbent on all parties that committed to that process to be bound by its recommendations and expect that those recommendations, as agreed by the Government in respect of level of ambition 2, would be implemented.

I acknowledge and appreciate that much work has been done to address recruitment and retention, but especially the former, by virtue of the pay increases that have been alluded to. It is not lost on this committee or anybody concerned that attracting people into the Defence Forces at a time of full employment is a difficult task, and I note there is provision within the Tánaiste's budget to enter into a new campaign to help and assist with that process. He was correct to mention the provisions made in respect of medical cover, which is, of course, welcome. It is as an enhancement to the recruitment process and it is appreciated. Similarly, capital projects the Tánaiste mentioned as under way and on the way should be acknowledged.

Issues have been raised at this committee by representative bodies in respect of the retention of forces into the future and the comparisons between pay scales associated with the private and public sector and comparisons between pension provisions, but I want to focus on the commitments made within level of ambition 2. As Deputy Berry noted, anything that was committed to two years ago will now have a different value by virtue of the rate of inflation, so much so that it will have increased by €500 million by 2028. To deal with the hard facts, what the Government has committed to and the responsibility the Government has to implement those commitments will amount to an increase from €1.1 billion to €1.5 billion by 2028. Beyond that and into the lifetime of a new Government, if and when it is elected and put into office, what sort of commitment should be in the ether for any such Government, how should it acknowledge its part in committing to what has been agreed to, and what might be expected beyond that? The last thing we want is false promises and commitments that cannot be honoured, so a bit of reality must be brought to bear in this debate.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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In the 1970s, when I was serving, we were not especially well paid. I recall the time Tiede Herrema was kidnapped. We were out searching the highways and byways, and while our colleague gardaí sat in restaurants and had their lunch, we had soggy sandwiches and cold tea. Morale was not a problem then; we loved what we did. We served the State with pride. What has gone wrong? It is over the past ten, maybe 20, years that it has gone so wrong. Soldiers never joined the Defence Forces for money. They joined them because they wanted to serve in uniform. I cannot understand how we have got to a point where our Naval Service is at failing point, our Air Corps is at failing point and our Army is falling apart. I cannot understand how it has got this far or how people do not understand that reducing numbers will increase the number of duties a soldier, a sailor or an airman will have to do. They come around more frequently. It is certainly not a family-friendly environment now.

We talk about pay for entrants. The Tánaiste has just spoken about the well-paid soldier and the well-paid junior officer. When there is a severe weather warning-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Senator-----

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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The Tánaiste would give out to me for interrupting me, so-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not use that phrase.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Okay, I am paraphrasing, but the Tánaiste is comparing a young soldier earning €38,000 a year with somebody in the public service or some private sector job. When there is a massive snowstorm, however, and everybody is stuck at home, military personnel are not stuck at home. When there is a national disaster, military personnel are not stuck at home. When Covid hit, the military was not sitting at home. The Tánaiste should not, therefore, compare a normal, nine-to-six role with that of a member of the Defence Forces.

We were talking about the working time directive. It is an absolute scandal that after all these years, nobody can tell me how many hours Joe Murphy serving in Collins Barracks worked last week. That is unacceptable. Somebody somewhere is responsible for it and it needs to be sorted out. When representatives of RACO and PDFORRA appear before the committee, I can understand the frustration they feel, because their members are hearing very positive stories from these committee meetings but nothing positive emerges.

I swore I was not going to speak on the IRG report until after the tribunal-----

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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That is fine, Chairman, but I need to do so now because the IRG report was based on untested evidence. It was based on submissions made to people for God knows what reason. Certainly, there are serious allegations that need to be examined and anybody in uniform will agree there were issues, especially relating to sexual harassment, rape and bullying, but we do not yet know the level. We talk about transformational change, culture and so on, but I put it to the Tánaiste that transformational and cultural change might start with the Department. Cultural change might start with politics and politicians in general and we might then release the coercive control that exists over the Defence Forces, because they have been hamstrung all along.

I am very proud of members of the Defence Forces who have served overseas.

I know some who served many more terms than 17 in their lives. Would the Tánaiste not accept that our primary role is the defence of the State, and that it is the 26 counties of Ireland, the ports, the cables under the sea and the sky above that we are supposed to protect? Does he not accept that this is our primary role and that our secondary role is the provision of peacekeepers wherever they are wanted in the world? Are we not somehow or other creating an unbalanced view of what the Defence Forces are about?

On the Air Corps, as the Cathaoirleach stated, we visited Baldonnel. The Cathaoirleach will agree that when we left Baldonnel, we felt depressed by what we had seen. We saw PC-9 aircraft, which are the training aircraft, on the ground and unable to be flown because they were in need of maintenance. We saw a helicopter, which we were told is worth €40 million, that had been sitting in a corner for over a year because there is nobody to maintain it. Then I opened The Irish Times and saw Bristow Ireland, which have just been awarded the search and rescue, SAR, contract, celebrating the fact that it is spending €135 million of our money to buy helicopters for this contract that they will keep at the end if it, just like CHC Helicopter will keep the Sikorski S-92 that we paid for. Somebody somewhere has got the way we look at things all wrong. I agree with Deputy Berry that we need to find a way to reinvigorate and bring in those new helicopters he spoke about.

Deputy Cowen mentioned the drug bust off the south-west coast of Cork. How proud we all were of that drug bust. Due to the fact that there was only one helicopter available, if some of those soldiers had died, how would we feel about that? How quick would we be to come forward to say that they died because we did not properly resource them and could not provide two helicopters? Deputy Berry is a former special forces man. He will tell you that one helicopter provides sniper cover and the other provides fast-roping onto the ship; he will not be long correcting me if I am wrong. The bottom line is that because we make do on a shoestring when we should have the resources to do more, we go around the place clapping ourselves on the back. It is a national embarrassment.

I am just back from a conference in London on intelligence and security at which people were talking about the west coast of Ireland having only two ships available. One size does not fit all. If we are not able to recruit people, we have to look at everything, including the remuneration we are offering. Does the Tánaiste agree that raising the salary of an entrant is good but that if a corporal is not earning commensurately above that and if a sergeant is not earning above that again, there is no incentive to stay on, seek promotion or make a career. We are hamstrung by the fact that young officers are only serving for short periods. What about the middle-ranking officers such as captains and the commandants? We need to look after them. When I served in the 1st Battalion in Galway, we paraded every morning at 9 o'clock. Every company was on parade with a company commander and every platoon was on parade with a lieutenant, a sergeant and four corporals. The parade was handed over by the sergeant major to the 2IC and from there to the CO, and it was a sight to behold. I do not think we could do that anywhere today. I do not think we could put a battalion on parade anywhere. Despite all the words and everything else, we have got the concept wrong. We are talking about recruitment and retention; we have to start talking about retention and recruitment.

I can tell the Tánaiste, and I have the evidence to back it up, that we are in serious trouble in the areas of cybersecurity, like most countries in Europe. I am glad to see the National Cyber Security Centre has really stepped up to the plate, but we need far more people involved in cybersecurity and far greater oversight of what is happening in this area. We are one of the few parliaments in the world, if not the only one that I am aware of, that does not have an intelligence committee that can oversee the security and intelligence operations of the State. Is that something the Tánaiste's party, Fianna Fáil, might consider as part of a programme for Government next time around? I will leave it at that.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Tánaiste and his officials for being here. I will focus on the Naval Service. The Tánaiste said that there was a situation of a three-ship posture, with two ships in operation and the other on standby. Will he tell us how many ships we have? Is it six or is it eight? Two new ships arrived here last May from New Zealand. Will the Tánaiste give us an update on those? What is happening with them? Will we have enough people to man them and put them out to sea? Will he give us an update on the other six ships that are listed in the Department's website, namely, LÉ Róisín, LÉ Niamh,LÉ Samuel Beckett, LÉ James Joyce, LÉ William Butler Yeatsand LÉ George Bernard Shaw? Are some of them not operational at the moment? They cost us a lot of money. Which three are actually part of the two-ship operation and one on standby? I ask about the actual infrastructure of the Naval Service with respect to the number of ships we have, the plans to crew them, and how we use them. Two ships at sea at any one time seems very few for the amount of water we have to cover.

Linked to that, will the Tánaiste give us an idea of the patrol duty allowances and the proposal to simplify the current quite complicated situation whereby there a number of allowances being paid at different levels to different ranks at different rates? Will he indicate when that will happen, what it will look like and how soon it will happen? I refer to patrol duty allowances and the seeking ongoing commitment and all of that. It is quite complex. We have been kicking this around for quite a time. If that was increased and simplified so people could understand it and qualify for it easier, it might help with retention. The Tánaiste mentioned recruitment as an important issue. I maintain that retention is as important.

Another question that is linked to that is if the Tánaiste have plans to incentivise long-service arrangements with certain officers in NCO ranks? In other words, will he incentivise people to stay in the service, be it the Air Corps, the Army or, in particular, the Naval Service? What about technical pay? We know if you lose certain technical grades, you cannot go to sea at all. At the moment, we are running quite close to the wire on the number of technicians we have who are needed to man the ships. Will the Tánaiste provide a report on that for the next meeting in order that members can digest it?

Also, we know that psychometric testing has been paused for six months. When will the six months be up and how long will the analysis of this approach take? Can the Tánaiste give us any indication now of any preliminary learnings from this pause? We know up to half the people who do the psychometric testing fail and those are only the people who complete it and do not include those who attempt it. Many people are turned off by the very sight of it. I challenge the Cathaoirleach to take one here in public to see how he gets on. I tried the test, and it is definitely not easy. I know people practice, get coached and pay money to learn how to do it, so it is quite difficult. I am not sure if the Tánaiste has looked at these psychometric tests but they are challenging.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have had a long and healthy scepticism regarding all these tests-----

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Indeed. I agree with the Tánaiste.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----for my whole life. The first one I ever did for the bank, I never got it. I do not know if it was psychometric test or what it was. However, the Deputy makes a fair point.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The testing has been paused for six months. When will that period end, what learnings have occurred in the meantime and when will we have a final report on the matter?

The Tánaiste said that external HR expertise has been engaged to assess and validate the current recruitment processes, with an initial focus on the Naval Service. Will he say a bit more about that? Who are the HR experts who have been engaged? What have they done to date and when does he expect them to provide a final report as to the work they are doing? I could go on with many more questions but I will leave it at that.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the committee to bear with me as I have a significant number of notes and may go back and forth between questions asked by different members. I agree with Deputy Berry. Deputy Cowen stated we should always appreciate the contribution of the Defence Forces overseas, particularly with UNIFIL and UNDOF, given the current situation. Deputy Berry made the fair point that without the presence of UNIFIL, the situation in Lebanon between Hezbollah and the Israel Defense Forces and Israel could be far worse. Likewise in terms of UNDOF. It is valuable work. As Deputy Cowen stated, for the families involved it is six months without a father, mother, partner, son or daughter. There is worry and stress that go with that. When we are sending off the various contingents, all the families are there. It is an emotional occasion for them. There is pride and many other emotions. What comes to mind is the fact that people are going into harm’s way. I spoke to the military this morning in the context of the current situation. Prior to the terrible killing last year of Private Sean Rooney, we had a long period of good fortune, so to speak, in terms of not having loss of life. In the 1970s, however, as the Cathaoirleach is probably aware, we lost a significant number of Defence Forces personnel, to an extent that there is a monument in respect of those who died on overseas service. We are very conscious of that.

On the equipment side, I am struck that people do not have a clear sense of this. The two inshore patrol vessels, IPVs, were purchased for €26 million. We have eight ships now. The two IPVs have arrived. The aim is to have all the readaptation work and so on finished by the end of January 2024. Work will then have to be done in terms of how we will redeploy to man those vessels. There is an issue in terms of recruitment and retention. The vessels are important because they will have work on the east coast as well and a chance to get a bit of the naval experience in Dublin and on the east coast more generally to aid recruitment into the Naval Service. A mid-life refurbishment programme to ensure the LÉ Niamh and LÉ Róisínare fit for purpose is under way. The LÉ Róisínwas completed and the LÉ Niamhextension programme is ongoing. It is scheduled for completion later this year. Up to €12.3 million per vessel has been budgeted for the programme. The multi-role vehicle project aims to replace the decommissioned Naval Service flagship, LÉ Eithne, which was commissioned in 1984. That joint project team is working with marine adviser services including the bid service, the public procurement consultants. The build stage for that is approximately three to four years. Again, it is down to shipyard scheduling capacity but the process is under way and following the public spending code for projects that exceed €200 million, as this one does.

Then we have a range of equipment, including a force protection update. A maintenance upgrade programme on the Army’s fleet of 80 Mowag armoured personnel carriers is well under way, at a cost of €95 million. That is nearing completion. The first 73 refurbished vehicles have been delivered. There were delays because of Covid-19. The Mowag gunnery simulator in the Curragh officially opened last September. A contract extension for an additional 30 armoured vehicles was signed in 2020-21. The first 26 vehicles of this contract were delivered in 2021, with the final four delivered in January 2023. Following on from the acquisition of 34 armoured vehicles in 2017 and 2018, the completion of this contract more than doubles the size of the armoured utility vehicle, AUV, fleet to 54 vehicles in total, at a cost of €20.4 million, inclusive of VAT, to date. A total of 220 non-armoured vehicles have been delivered.

As regards aircraft, the C295 military transport aircraft are now both with us, plus the larger transport to which Deputy Berry referred. These are all significant projects. The Gormanston training campus, where all three services will train together, is well under way. There are far more projects but I wished to give the committee the current status in respect of the C295s, equipment, fit-out and all that. There is a lot of capital in train. Deputy Cowen asked a key question. I am always wary of bandying about figures, such as whether a sum is one point something billion euro or €2 billion. Once we enter contracts, we enter contracts. It is the same with tender situations. There is an issue with procurement at the moment as a result of the war in Ukraine, That affects munitions in particular but also military equipment more generally.

The biggest project is radar. It is taking time to first get an assessment of what is required for the country. The military authorities are working on that. We want an overarching radar system, embracing air, land and sea. That is fundamental. It must be done. I could give a figure now but it may change. As in the case of many capital projects, the final cost may be far in excess of what somebody might estimate today it will cost. As the Government is committed to level of ambition, LOA, 2, however, we simply must do it. We have to tender competitively and all that but there are projects that must be done. Ultimately, that will determine the out-turn by 2028 or 2030. There is a basic level of refurbishment of barracks, a basic level of equipment and a long list of equipment and weaponry that we simply must procure.

The biggest challenge is personnel. Deputy Berry referenced-----

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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On that point, I do not wish to be political but it is incumbent on members of all parties or none to be conscious in the year that is approaching, when an election may be in the offing, that if they wish to go over and above the commitments contained in level 2, they should account for the manner in which they will be able to do that and where and how any money beyond what the Government has committed to by 2028 will be found.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is a fair point. Much of this will be about getting this done as opposed to the cost of getting it done. It is about getting it done through the various procurement processes. Some requests are far more complex than one may think. People go through this in great detail on the military side to get the assessment right and so on. It is important we do that when such large sums of money are being spent. What worries me is the maintenance and servicing of much of the newer equipment we are purchasing, as well as the training of personnel to operate the new equipment. That comes back to recruitment and retention, training in the technical grades and technicians and so on. As Deputy Craughwell pointed out, part of the challenge is that the private sector is poaching highly qualified people from the military. That is not just happening here; it is happening all over the world in a very tight employment situation. In some cases, the private sector is buying people out. In terms of those starting, the situation has improved significantly. That needs to be acknowledged, as I stated.

We are constantly looking at ways to improve. The healthcare announcement is part of that improvement. We recently approved an allowance that was arbitrated at conciliation and arbitration for Army Rangers, for example. There is a military service allowance, as the Deputy is aware, which is pensionable and is designed to compensate for the real and special disadvantages, to which reference was made, that are associated with military life, such as long and unsocial hours. That allowance is paid to all ranks up to the level of colonel because we recognise the role of the Defence Forces is different from that of other parts of the public service.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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How long were the Army-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We got it dealt with.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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The Minister got it done. Did he go back the full distance?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There was mediation and there was conciliation.

On the working time directive, we have put a significant amount of effort into this in recent months. There is a lot of engagement. It is a priority of mine. We will eventually make a call on this in terms of settling.

The Senator referred to the issue of time, and clocking in and clocking out. The military will say it has its systems. We are endeavouring to get an agreed position on this in terms of piloting.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I think it counts days and not hours.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Suffice it to say that we need a system in terms of the implementation of this. I think this is agreed all around. This is what the reference in the speech relates to. I refer to getting this agreed once and for all in a transparent manner, which will then facilitate the implementation of the working time directive. This is important.

The maintenance aspect comes back to personnel. I will tell Deputy Berry that I think there is an issue there. We have six helicopters but they are not all operational at the same time. Turning to Lebanon, Deputy Cowen raised safety and security in that context. We have been in Lebanon for a long time, and through very difficult times in the 1970s, the 1990s, including 1992, I think, and the early 2000s. As those with a background in the military will know, it has clear protocols, operational positioning and posture in the context of challenges and dangerous moments. The commander, of course, and those in command of the different missions, come from the UN. Our troops are answerable in the first instance to those commanders.

Obviously, our own military keeps in touch and monitors the situation, as do we all, to ensure we monitor the safety and force protection of our personnel. This will continue. I met our military leadership to discuss this subject to be very clear myself in this regard. I can say to the Deputies and Senators that we are very conscious of this aspect, but there is established procedure in the UN in the first instance. It is a much larger UNIFIL force than has been the case historically. There are about 10,000 troops there now from many different nations. There are anchor nations, but we are not one, as such, in terms of the size of our numbers involved. We will work in consort with other nations concerning what may or may not transpire. We all hope there will not be a regional extension of this conflict, but we are very conscious of the safety of our troops. There has been experience of previous outbreaks of conflict in Lebanon. We will continue to work with our military leadership on this issue.

Senator Craughwell raised several issues. I think we need to be careful of our language too. I am conscious of this. I know I said earlier that RACO may not appreciate me talking about the culture all of the time, but I do think it is an important issue. The Senator said that the IRG report is untested evidence, but it is not just that report itself. I have met serving and former personnel, and there are issues there, especially in respect of women.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I do not think anybody disagrees with that.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. This is a positive thing, then, because I think it could be good for everybody.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I do not dispute it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We need to work on the culture, along with all the other issues. We are not saying that other issues do not exist, but the culture is important. It is important to recognise that young people today have a different psychology than we would have had and that Senator Craughwell would have had in the 1970s. They look at the world differently, so we need cultural change. We cannot just say this; it must happen. It worries me when people have a cut at it. All that we did in the document we published, for example, was to use language to the effect that we wanted to prioritise cultural change. There was negative commentary about this aspect alone, which really worries me. Does this mean there is a certain lack of commitment? This is not aimed at the Senator. I just wish to articulate that point.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I am sorry to interrupt, but I wish to ask a question. Should we not have just issued a single line to state that the IRG found a prima faciecase that needs to be investigated? This would have been sufficient. We could then have let a tribunal test the evidence. This is the way it should have happened.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think we could have not commented on what was in the report. It would have been utterly unrealistic to suggest that we would have had one sentence and that would have been it. That would have not lasted a few minutes in this House or out in the public domain.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Some of the statements I heard in the House were outrageous.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We live in a democracy and people are going to comment. People have perspectives on the report, that I acknowledge. The fundamental recommendation, however, was to have an inquiry and that is what we are doing.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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That is what we all want.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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A public inquiry can contest things, as we saw with the Charleton tribunal, and so on. I am very worried about the strength of the Naval Service. I do not think the Air Corps is at failing point. We should be careful of the language we use. Once we say that morale is very low, if I am working in the Defence Forces and all I hear emanating every day from Dáil Éireann and everywhere else is that the worst place to work is in the Defence Forces, that the experience is terrible and that it is this and that, then that does not help my morale.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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How many aircraft are on the ground?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Through the chair, I am just making the point about using language. The Senator used a phrase like "the Army is falling apart". It is not falling apart. We have severe issues with recruitment and retention, but it is not falling apart. What I am trying to say is that there are two ways of looking at this situation. By the way, I have seen this occur in the health services for 20 years. For 25 years in that context, accident and emergency departments have been an issue. Nothing else gets discussed about outcomes and the fact that we have dramatically improved our lifespan and that cardiovascular health is light years away from where it was. The point is that we need some sense of perspective to give people a sense of hope being on the horizon as well and that there is movement, progress and things happening.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I have been ten years asking for something to give hope.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The C295s and strategic airlift capacity, when it arrives, will be big changes to the Air Corps, compared to previous times. In fairness, I think Deputy Berry said this earlier. This is not to say that there are not still issues to be addressed. The biggest issue is recruitment and retention. We will bring in legislation to go up to the 35-year-old age group. Primary legislation is needed to do this, and I think someone referred to this point earlier, and we are going to do it. The retention aspect is extremely important as well. All I will say, though, is that somewhere along the line with all the negative comments we need some positive ones.

To be honest, within 15 hours of what was a successful intervention in respect of the drugs, there was a race to get this into a negative space.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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That is unfair.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is not.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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It is bloody unfair.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I observed it.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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There was one goddamn helicopter available-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, okay.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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-----and it was an ambulance helicopter that had to be taken out of service. Do not try now to make us the bad guys here. The bad guys are those people who allowed the organisation to have one helicopter available, and it had to be taken from Athlone. It is unfair to turn on those who criticise the situation.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is our helicopter, by the way. It is a military helicopter. The point I am making is that it was a very successful operation. The Senator has queried and raised the bar a bit in terms of loss of life and all that. A very careful assessment was made of the situation by people in authority in the military.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Great people.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Let us trust them then.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Yes.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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They would not-----

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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They would not have stayed down.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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When I received the recommendation that the military and the Army Ranger Wing should board the vessel, I did so on the basis of the best military advice. The Chief of Staff recommended it and I trust him in his assessment and the team that was with him. This is the context here. They knew what they were dealing with. There are certain situations where it would be preferable to have more resources available, and all of that, but they made a very clear assessment of risk and everything else and made the decision to intervene. The Air Corps was very important in the operation in terms of the surveillance of that ship. The surveillance was really an aerial one for quite some time.

The biggest issue for us coming out of that was the absolute importance of synergising the three services, which is very much a part of the recommendations of the Commission on the Defence Forces. I refer to having the Navy, Air Corps and the Army, and the Army Ranger Wing, all working together, with An Garda Síochána and the Revenue Commissioners. I think we should do this even better and to a greater extent. This is the one lesson we take from this intervention. Instead of having three press releases, there could be one in future from the joint task force. This is not the biggest issue in the world. It was a very good and successful operation. The evacuation out of Sudan was also a very successful and effective operation, undertaken at that stage by people on the civilian side in the Department of Foreign Affairs. Immediately afterwards, people were talking about the kindness of strangers and all this kind of thing. We worked with Europe in trying to evacuate people from Afghanistan.

We do need strategic lift, yes. For procuring it I think we should also be part of a European strategic airlift and consortium within Europe to do that. That is a view I have. There are positives. I am not saying we should not highlight negative situations; we should. In terms of helicopters, it was servicing and maintenance and that is recruitment. There are also issues with those and we are going to get that right. It is not a question of issues around servicing not being satisfactory.

On cybersecurity I think the Senator is being overly harsh. We have made strides in cybersecurity in the past two to three years. The national centre is good. Our military are involved.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I would like to talk to the Tánaiste privately on that. I do not think we can talk about it in public session.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is the growth threat. The Ukrainian war has revealed an enormous growth in cyberattacks.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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By the way, we are one of the better ones in Europe.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Collaboration is the key and that goes back to the consultative forum. On those two areas of maritime, we saw with Estonia and Finland that the gas pipeline was sabotaged just last week, as was the cable. It means the private sector, governments and militaries need to co-operate and collaborate and we need to get their information as to their cables. It will need a lot of multidisciplinary expertise to deal with cybersecurity but it is coming together. I have spoken to the Garda Commissioner and the Chief of Staff to get their perspectives and, of course, the key person in national cybersecurity, Richard Browne. I have great confidence in them.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Richard Browne is doing a great job.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Stanton had specific questions. I gave him the examples of the two inshore patrol vessels. The duty allowance is not specifically a budgetary issue in the sense we can deal with it as we are, and there have been negotiations. I was anxious to retain the tax credit in this year's budget. Regarding the patrol duty allowance, I spoke to people where the tax credit was meant to be the big game changer in recruitment to the Naval Service. It is important but it has not been a game changer. I think officials on both sides have gone into the weeds on this. I am anxious that we stand back a bit and make sure that whatever we do here is right and actually means something in terms of people on ships and in terms of their pocket, so to speak, because it is not just a simplification and clarification of an allowance. We are engaging with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Implementation and Reform on this. There is a specific Naval Service seagoing tax credit which is worth €1,500.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The number of people is very small.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The money is not big. I would say at the moment we are looking at €2 million. This is not huge money. I am not convinced but I think we need to do it and in a way that is meaningful.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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How soon? Is there any time objective? Are we talking about weeks, months or years?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I would hope very quickly. There is a pay agreement coming. We could do it very quickly in the weeks before that or we could do it in full sight of it, which is where I am. The pay agreement is important too for Defences Forces personnel. I do not want to do something that does not really move the dial at all. The issue to me is that we need people on ships and to incentivise that a bit more. There were 100 on the service commitment scheme in 2021 and I think 38 in 2022. The numbers are very low.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We might wonder why.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Knock-ons are a kind of ritual thing we get but I think it can be done. I am determined to do it but I was not going to be rushed into it prior to the budget because I was not going to sign up for something where people would lose the tax credit and it would be asked what that was all about. No one is going to be disadvantaged. We do not want people disadvantaged from this, but I also think, looking at the existing scheme, we could do more maybe to incentivise, or rather reward, people at sea.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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There was a proposal about long service increments as well, or payments to incentivise people to stay on longer. That has been around now since 2019. What are the Tánaiste's thoughts on that?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Everything in that area is part of the national picture. The big issue always is the knock-on to other sectors. That is a big concern. I am looking at it and seeing what we can do now in terms of the pay agreement and if there are certain areas we can focus on.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We are losing very skilled people every day. If there is no incentive for them to stay on, they are going to be attracted into the private sector. Some of these people are irreplaceable with the skills they have, especially on the ships. If we do not have them, we cannot put the ships to sea. We are now down to two ships. If it keeps going like this, we will not be able to put any to sea.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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CPL is the agency and we have asked it to examine whether the current recruitment practices and policies are fit for practice and are optimal. We had already brought in a group on specialised recruitment to try to get specialised personnel from a technical point of view for the ships. That was initiated at the beginning of the year. The outcome is not great on that in terms of scouring around globally for skilled personnel. That is key. It is the skilled personnel who make the ships operational, in the engine room and so on. It is very important. It is a big worry and that is why we are putting everything into this, to see if we can change what is happening there.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The final question I asked was about psychometric testing.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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A number of people with great expertise have come back into the military at a high level.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I know that.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That has been interesting and quite gratifying, and the quality of those with particular expertise who have come back in has been very high. On psychometric tests, the end of the year is the expiry of the six months. We will look at that with a view to extending it. We will see if we can get an outcome as to whether it has made an appreciable difference.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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It is from the veterans generally. We do not do military honours. We let our people down all of the time. In 1968, the then Chief of Staff wrote to the Minister for Defence and pointed out that we cannot give distinguished service medals and medals for gallantry to everybody. He said that they could not award medals to those killed in the Niemba ambush because it might look as if it was a handout and might bring fresh criticisms of how Ireland's operations in the Congo were conducted. I believe the Niemba guys who got killed got the military star in 1998, 38 years after they were killed. The families got the military star. Jadotville remains a thorn in the side of everybody. The independent review group report is not accepted by anybody. Billy Kedian lies in a grave four plots away from a fellow county-man who has a US naval ship named after him. Kedian lost his life saving his colleagues in the Lebanon and there are countless other soldiers.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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What is the block? Will the Tánaiste do something about the blockage there is about recognising valour?

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Okay. I just said I would do it for the veterans.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The case of Billy Kedian is being examined by the Chief of Staff right now. The Senator may be aware of that. The broader issue of Jadotville has been examined on a number of occasions in different forums. I am hearing what the Deputy is saying and I will have further discussions with the Chief of Staff and others on that. It has always been the military authorities who have gone through this, not the political arm, as the Senator understands.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Chair. You were as courteous as ever. I appreciate the opportunity to appear here today. It was a good exchange of views. I will keep in touch with you and the other members of the committee.