Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Senator Ardagh raised several issues. There must, ultimately, be a political solution to the whole Middle Eastern situation. Notwithstanding the difficulty and viability issues, we believe the two-state solution is the only one that can really give some degree or horizon of security, harmony, peace and co-existence because the territories we are talking about here are very small. No matter what the political configuration, people will, ultimately, have to learn to live in harmony with each other. We are talking about populations that are increasing. Since the Oslo Accords were agreed, the population in Gaza and the West Bank has gone up significantly.

On the point regarding having no direct conversation with Hamas, it is much more than just an organisation seeking national self-determination or independence or whatever. To me, it is clearly jihadist and pan-Islamic in its approach. It is very authoritarian. It is very repressive in respect of LGBT rights and what we would consider basic norms in democratic societies. One of the reasons we spoke to representatives of Iran yesterday was that even though they say they have no influence, the reality is they do have links to Hamas and fund and support it politically. They came out in celebration of what happened last Saturday week. They said it was the right thing to do and they support what they call the resistance. This is why I insisted to the foreign minister of Iran that hostages must be released immediately, and hostages from all countries and nationalities, and that there must be no regional escalation. The purpose of the call was to communicate this to him as our view and our perspective, sharing a wider European perspective. We will also be speaking to representatives of Türkiye and Qatar. They have their own channels to and links with Hamas as well. We do not talk directly to Hamas.

In our peace process, there first of all had to be a cessation of violence before Sinn Féin was allowed at the table; hence the Downing Street Declaration. There must also be recognition of the 1967 borders and the State of Israel, which Hamas has not signed up to. We have, however, spoken to those states that have direct influence with Hamas. We have spoken to some of the states and we will speak to more of them. I will also be speaking to the Lebanese defence minister tomorrow and the foreign minister of the United Arab Emirates, UAE, this evening. We already spoke to the Palestinian foreign minister last week. We will keep engaging with as many people as we possibly can.

It is correct to say the landscape has been changed for the next decade. There is no doubt about this. The challenge is that we need rational thinking here and reason to prevail. I think it was Senator O'Reilly who earlier said that, ultimately, anger is not a policy in itself, notwithstanding the terrible atrocities that have occurred. I am appalled at the levels of suffering that ordinary Gazans are enduring now. Whatever emerges from this situation, we want a cessation and a pause in hostilities to allow humanitarian aid in. I said earlier that there is a major issue with Hamas now in terms of its capacity to kill and murder Israeli civilians and breach Israeli security. This has happened. We must, therefore, acknowledge that reality. Proportionality, though, must apply in the pursuit of Hamas. The protection of the civilian population must be uppermost not just in Israel's consideration but in all our consideration. Hence the need for humanitarian corridors for fuel, food and all of that to get through.

Senator Craughwell spoke about what has happened and the rules of war. I think that he accepted that the cutting off of fuel, etc., was wrong. He did not condone it. He was correct in saying that in terms of the actions of Hamas, someone thought these through. There is a view on the jihadist side that some people think that creating mayhem is enough and that striking a blow and killing people creates a dynamic in itself. I do not understand fully the thought processes of people who would kill like this, those who would deliberately go into a house and just kill children. I cannot comprehend that.

There was a thought process there; someone thought it through. Some armchair general thought this was a good idea and sacrificed hundreds of young people in the name of martyrdom. I recently attended an event in west Cork where someone warned young people not to listen to armchair generals who do not go into the theatre of battle themselves, and to beware of politicians who urge others to go into the theatre of battle. All war kills young people and those who embark on war should always be conscious of that.

Regarding the comments Senator Craughwell made, the Ceann Comhairle was very clear that it is not appropriate to comment on any comments the President made or on the Presidency in the House. The same applies at committee level and I do not propose to do so this evening in response to that. I never have and I do not intend now to start to breach what has been a long-standing protocol in the House.

I share Deputy Cronin's absolute concerns for the people of Gaza. I visited the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem recently. I actually saw the Nazi plan which was a very dark and sad experience. It is extraordinary that such inhumanity happened to millions of people. This was organised - I do not think we can blame the French or anybody else. It was organised at central headquarters. The plan actually had a number for Ireland. They actually planned to go into Ireland and they stated the number of Jews they were going to take out of Ireland and exterminate. The plan was to exterminate all Jews in Europe. There was incredible material there. We should never get away from the fact that this was a centrally organised plan by the Nazi regime. It is a major factor in the Israelis' view of the world.