Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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In our first session we examined the Comptroller and Auditor General's special report No. 96 on the cost of the child abuse inquiry and redress scheme. In this session we will examine the financial statements of Caranua for 2014 and 2015. As I mentioned earlier, Caranua is an independent State body which was set up to help people who had experienced abuse in residential institutions in Ireland and received settlement redress board or court awards. From Caranua, we are joined by Ms Mary Higgins, chief executive officer; Mr. David O'Callaghan, chairman; and Mr. David Yeomans, director of finance and corporate affairs. From the Department of Education and Skills, we are still joined by Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Mr. Dalton Tatten, Mr. Martin Hanevy, Ms Catherine Hynes and Ms Mary Cregg.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I call on the Comptroller and Auditor General to make a brief opening statement. For this session he is joined by Ms Ruth Foley, deputy director of audit.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The residential insitutions' fund board, better known as Caranua, was established, as the Chairman said, in March 2013 under the Residential Institutions Statutory Fund Act 2012. The board's financial statements before the committee in this session are for the financial years 2014 and 2015. Caranua is responsible under 2012 Act for managing and disbursing funds donated by religious congregations to support the needs of former residents of residential institutions. No Exchequer sourced funds are involved. The Act provides for the donated funds to be used to pay grants to former residents for certain approved services, that is, housing support services, health and well-being services and education, learning and development services.

Following the publication of the Ryan report in 2009, the religious congregations offered cash contributions that totalled a combined €110 million, in addition to cash contributions committed to and paid over under the terms of the 2002 indemnity agreement. By the end of December 2015, €85 million of the total of €110 million had been received into the special fund and some interest had also been earned on the balances held.

I issued a clear audit opinion in respect of Caranua's financial statements for 2014 and 2015. However, for both years, the audit report draws attention to the statement on internal financial control which discloses weaknesses in the board's controls over grant payments. The concern was that these weaknesses created a risk that grant expenditure might not have been used for the proposes intended in at least some cases. For example, for 2015, Caranua could not provide evidence that price quotations had been obtained in advance in about one third of a sample of grant applications examined in the audit. Claimants for housing related support grants had provided proof of property tenancy or ownership in only one third of a sample of cases examined in the audit and required follow up by Caranua such as the collection of receipts for grant funded work or purchases which had been completed for only around 15% of the grants paid. The statement on internal financial control sets out the steps being taken by the board to resolve the control weaknesses identified. The adequacy of the controls will be examined again in the audit of the 2016 financial statement.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I invite Ms Higgins of Caranua to make her opening statement.

Ms Mary Higgins:

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation to attend to review with them our financial statements for 2014 and 2015 and giving me the opportunity to make a short opening statement. By way of context, I will give a brief overview of Caranua, its aims and application process. Caranua was established, as the Chairman said, under 2012 legislation to manage a fund of €110 million to support the needs of survivors of institutional abuse, people who had been placed in the care of State as children and experienced neglect and abuse in these institutions which had been managed by religious congregations on behalf of the State. The damaging effects of this experience are lifelong and while most survivors have led fulfilling lives, the lives of many others have been limited in multiple ways because of what they endured as children.

In setting out to design a service for survivors we aimed to base it on their expressed needs and preferences and what was known about the effects of adverse childhood experiences and how they could be addressed. This approach was helped by our having four survivors on the board. We also consulted about 200 individuals in Ireland and England during 2013. It was clear that the majority of survivors were ageing and that very many of them were disadvantaged educationally and in other ways and would find it difficult to engage with a service that was in any way bureaucratic or rigid. It was with these survivors in mind that we designed our application process on the principle that if it worked for the most vulnerable, it would work for everyone. Our central aim was, and is, to put survivors at the heart of everything we did. Our application process is values-based, needs-led and person-centred.

It is broken into different stages. When an applicant is ready to apply for services, he or she is appointed a dedicated adviser to provide support, advice and information in making an application to Caranua and, as necessary, make referrals to and-or advocate with other organisations for other services. We try to ensure there are no barriers for someone in applying to us and we pay particular attention to ensuring our application and other information materials are accessible. All are in plain English. We have easy-to-read versions and short films on our website. We organise a number of outreach events every year at which applicants and potential applicants can come to meet advisers and other staff face to face. We hold a monthly clinic with interpreting services in Dublin.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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This is not the same as the written statement.

Ms Mary Higgins:

It is not substantially different. I just changed the order in order that it would flow better.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is just that we are trying to follow it.

Ms Mary Higgins:

I beg your pardon. I should have said I did some last minute editing.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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May we have a copy?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I have a copy and can certainly circulate one.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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When Ms Higgins is finished, we will circulate it. Is the content of the draft we received-----

Ms Mary Higgins:

It is substantially the same. I tried to shorten it because, when I read it, it was ten minutes long and I knew that it was meant to be five minutes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will keep going and listen carefully.

Ms Mary Higgins:

We organise a number of outreach events every year. We hold a monthly clinic with interpreting services in Dublin for people who are deaf or hard of hearing and offer online face-to-face assessments to them through the Irish Remote Interpreting Service. We protect and promote the confidentiality of survivors in contact with us and do not discuss individual applications without the written permission of the applicant. We receive value feedback from applicants and other stakeholders. We actively seek it through informal conversations, formal feedback mechanisms and our complaints procedure. We use feedback to review and improve our services and processes. Applicants can also avail of the independently established process to appeal decisions made by Caranua.

Engagement in consultation has continued to be a cornerstone of our approach and we work closely with survivor support groups such as the Aislinn Education and Support Centre, SOCA UK, Right of Place, the Alliance Victim Support Group, Whispering Hope, Irish welfare services in the United Kingdom and the dedicated survivor counselling services that were referred to earlier.

The length of time it takes to assess, process and complete an application varies according to the needs and circumstances of each applicant and can span a number of months and involve an average of about 30 telephone calls for each one, in addition to other written communication. We opened for applications in January 2014 and, to the end of March this year, over 5,000 individuals were eligible to apply to us. A total of 4,362 had actually applied for services, 4,000 to the point of payment. We have spent over €56 million of the fund on services for survivors.

The average number of payments each applicant receives is eight. The average value of a payment received by an applicant is €13,000. That is an average figure for a large number obviously and there are outliers within it.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We do not have the document and I would really like to have a copy.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are at a little bit of a disadvantage.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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In terms of referencing, it is going to be hard.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I am going to ask for a copy. There will be time. As soon as Ms Higgins finishes, we will get a copy.

Ms Mary Higgins:

This information was contained in the briefing document we supplied last week.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will have copies circulated in a moment. All I can say at this stage is that members should bear with us.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Will I keep going?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Higgins should complete her contribution and we will then make and circulate a copy.

Ms Mary Higgins:

After some time being dependent on temporary agency staff, during which there was a high staff turnover, we have, since the second half of 2016, a directly contracted full staff team in place. These staff were carefully selected for their skills, experience and attitudes. They are professionally qualified and experienced in the areas related to their responsibilities. The work of Caranua is complex and an intensive induction programme, with ongoing skills development and opportunities for internal supervision and external support, is available for all staff.

We work hard to deliver a good service, but we do not get it right all of the time. The comments made by the Comptroller and Auditor General are completely warranted. Our systems were imperfect. We accept the recommendations made and are in the process of implementing them, as reported in our briefing document.

We faced a number of significant challenges in achieving good practice standards and controls. For very good reasons, we got started quickly and organisation processes and systems have been retrofitted over time. We are trying to balance the requirements of care and compliance. In considering how best to do this we have concluded that having a range of direct contracts with preferred suppliers, whereby Caranua will contract directly with them for specified services, is the best way forward. All financial transactions are between us and the supplier and there is no need for applicants to get quotes and obtain receipts. Since the beginning of the year, we have in place a contract with the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, for example, whereby it will do the work it does in terms of energy efficiency for applicants who apply to us in this regard.

Caranua is, by definition, a limited fund. It has a sum of €110 million. When that money is gone, we will be gone. We are planning to wind down the organisation by 2019, at the latest. In the interim we will continue to deliver services to survivors and work to support other community-based and specialist services to recognise and respond effectively to the needs of survivors in order that they can be cared for beyond the life of Caranua at home and not in institutions. This will ensure a lasting benefit for the people who have used our services and, I hope, contribute to the prevention of the abuse of children in the future.

I thank members for their attention. My apologies for having caused tremendous confusion. I am sorry.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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If that is worst bit of confusion caused today, it will be quite all right. I thank Ms Higgins for her statement. Somebody will collect it from her and we will copy and circulate it. I know that we had received a briefing note. There will be votes in the Dáil shortly and we will probably have to suspend while they are taking place.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Higgins and her team for coming. The reason it would have been helpful to have had her opening statement is that it is difficult for me to refer to a particular paragraph if the paragraph numbers have been changed.

Ms Mary Higgins:

I understand.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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It makes my work a little more difficult at the beginning. The first thing I want to say which I said earlier in relation to the Department is that I represented around ten claimants against the redress board in 2007 in my capacity as a solicitor. I just want to make Ms Higgins aware of that. It has no bearing on the matter, but I just want to communicate it in the interests of transparency.

Ms Higgins states in the second paragraph of her written submission that Caranua "is aimed at improving the quality of life of survivors of institutional abuse". To a certain extent, there are many reports that Caranua has actually disimproved quality of life, to some degree, in the sense that there is, of course, a financial aspect to what the organisation, not Ms Higgins per se, is trying to achieve.

In many ways Ms Higgins's opening statement does not add up. She says the staff have been carefully selected for their skills, yet in the last paragraph of her written submission she states, "In addition it is planned to enhance our work with other service providers so that they can be trauma informed and recognise and respond to the needs of survivors". I know from dealing with claimants that they have suffered trauma - a heinous, horrendous trauma. In a sense, many of them are suffering from post-traumatic stress. On the one hand, Ms Higgins is talking about the fact that she has taken on staff for their skills and, on the other, accepting that she needs to look at the issue in terms of having staff who are trained in relation to trauma. Will she explain that to me? She states in her written submission that "Caranua is engaged in the delivery of a care service to people who may be vulnerable". I suggest they are and continue to be vulnerable. If it is true - I am only putting it to Ms Higgins on behalf of the Committee of Public Accounts - that they have been made vulnerable in the manner they say they have been, they have been made even more vulnerable. I would like to hear Ms Higgins' comments on that issue also.

Ms Mary Higgins:

I will start with the last one, the one about survivors being vulnerable.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Ms Higgins said "may".

Ms Mary Higgins:

I will explain. The reason for that is because a lot of survivors would not see themselves as vulnerable. They do not describe themselves as victims and they do not like to be put into that kind of category. It is for that reason that I am usually careful with the language that I use.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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In my book, I think "victim" and "vulnerable" are different words.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Okay, well I am just explaining the rationale for saying they are not a homogenous group of people and some of them are extremely resilient and, as I referred to in the opening statement I made, have had good lives.

In terms of the statement not adding up about the staff and the trauma-informed services, they are two different things. Our own staff are carefully selected. They are supported, managed and supervised to deliver services that are appropriate to the people we are working with. What is not well understood outside of specialist services for survivors are the effects of adverse early childhood experiences and therefore not all services are well attuned to why somebody might be behaving the way they are behaving and what their needs might be. What we are planning to do over the coming years is to work more closely with mainstream service providers and specialist services to ensure that there is an awareness of early childhood trauma and the effects that has for the rest of people's lives.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Does Ms Higgins accept that she said: "You can't control people's experience of what we do for them", some clients "will never be happy" and grievances "suit such a narrative"?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I think Deputy Madigan is referring to an article from The Irish Times.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I am just asking Ms Higgins if she made those comments about the claimants.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Not exactly. I have the transcript of the interview in front of me and I can tell the Deputy exactly what I said.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps Ms Higgins could clarify her comments.

Ms Mary Higgins:

I have it with me but I do not have it in front of me. The context is that I that I was being asked about our making people feel like they were begging. I think I prefaced it my reply by saying that I can completely understand how somebody who has to come and ask for something might feel as if they are begging but, as I described in my opening statement, we have very consciously and deliberately set out to design a service that does not do that to people. To the best of our ability we do not do that.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Is Ms Higgins saying she did not say "You can't control people's experience".

Ms Mary Higgins:

No, I am trying to put a context on the comments that I made.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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So Ms Higgins did say it.

Ms Mary Higgins:

No, I am going to say-----

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Ms Higgins is saying she said it but she is putting it in context. Is that correct?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I am saying that, "If people feel" like that - I am quoting now from the interview.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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No, I did not ask that, I am just asking whether Ms Higgins made that comment: "You can't control people's experience of what we do for them", as in, ergo, Caranua.

Ms Mary Higgins:

What I said was something to the effect that it is not our intention to do-----

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Did Ms Higgins say that or did she not?

Ms Mary Higgins:

No, I did not say it, because it has been-----

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Ms Higgins did not say it.

Ms Mary Higgins:

No, and I am trying to explain what I did say, that we have-----

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Could Ms Higgins tell me what she did say?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I am trying to say we have designed a service specially to meet the needs of the people that we are working with.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I saw that in Ms Higgins's opening statement.

Ms Mary Higgins:

We cannot control the experience that people have, and if people have that experience what I was trying to explain is-----

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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So that is really the same thing, in essence.

Ms Mary Higgins:

It is not because we are trying to deny them anything, it is true that-----

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I am not saying Ms Higgins is trying to deny them anything but I think she can understand how that can come across as a pejorative and insulting statement.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes, I do completely.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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And that it has quite passive-aggressive undertones. Does Ms Higgins accept that?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I do. Absolutely.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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So there is an admission that Ms Higgins said it and that she did not mean anything by it.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes, and I think it is very unfortunate the way it was reported and I certainly regret any pain or offence that was caused by those comments.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Did Ms Higgins say the complaints about Caranua suit the narrative of the big bad State and the big bad religious congregations?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I did.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Would Ms Higgins like to explain those comments?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I think there is a narrative and for very obvious and justifiable reasons we have a situation where thousands of people were taken away from their families, as children, and put into institutions which were brutal. I do not think as a society we have processed what happened there and I do not think we have faced up to what the effects are on those people and on society as a whole. There is a simplistic kind of narrative-----

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The complainants have not done anything wrong.

Ms Mary Higgins:

I am not saying that they have.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I know, but by saying that it feeds into that narrative. It can come across as insensitive in effect.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes, I am trying not to be insensitive but what I am trying to say is that there is more to this situation than the State having done something bad and the church having done something bad. That is part of it but in order to get beyond that it is more complex and we have to come to terms with it.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I will move on but I just wanted to give Ms Higgins the opportunity to respond to those comments because they are about people who have gone through harrowing times and when they listen to that it complicates the situation for them and compounds their suffering.

In relation to the limit on the number of services one can apply for and the fact that there was a cut-off point in mid-2015, does Ms Higgins think that is directly related to the fact that Caranua itself did not get the €110 million yet? Is there a direct correlation between those factors?

Ms Mary Higgins:

No.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Is there no correlation at all?

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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What was the reason for the abrupt withdrawal of services? I will talk more about the figures in a moment. It seems to me that a lot of money was spent very quickly on a small number of claims and it was not anticipated that there would be further claims down the line. Ms Higgins accepted that. I know the Comptroller and Auditor General referred to the control over grant payments and the inefficiencies but I want to hear what Ms Higgins has to say about it.

Ms Mary Higgins:

There was not an abrupt cutting off. There was a review that took place over a number of months in 2015.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The files were closed, according to some claimants and they were told they could no longer avail of the services, just like that.

Ms Mary Higgins:

I do not know if that was said to people.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Ms Higgins does not know.

Ms Mary Higgins:

I know that what we did was-----

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Does Ms Higgins think they fabricated that or that it happened?

Ms Mary Higgins:

No, I am saying I do not know.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Is there anyone with Ms Higgins who would know?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I am going to explain. What we did was we reviewed our criteria in 2015. In reviewing the criteria we took account of what applicants had said to us about the way that we operated and the services that we provided.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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So Caranua withheld some of the services that were originally provided? Back in 2014 it was advertised that there was no limit. The guidelines, which were published in May 2014 state that there is no limit on the number of services one can apply for. Claimants made claims and abruptly in 2015 they were told that the services could not be provided. I want an explanation for them. I am just a member of Committee of Public Accounts. This is not personal to Ms Higgins. I ask on behalf of those people.

Ms Mary Higgins:

We communicate directly with people to explain this.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Ms Higgins said she did not know whether they were communicated with.

Ms Mary Higgins:

No, I am saying that we do not just say to people: "That is it. You are gone. Goodbye." We have a different way of dealing with people, and if people have that experience it needs to be brought to my attention because it means something is going very badly wrong.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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As far as Ms Higgins is aware, were there no complaints made to Caranua in relation to the services being cut off or withdrawn?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Services have neither been cut off nor withdrawn.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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People cannot avail of them.

Ms Mary Higgins:

No. Nothing has changed in terms of the range of services that we offer. In fact, we have increased the range of services we offer under the new 2016 system.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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That is not my understanding.

Ms Mary Higgins:

What we have done is introduced different things. We have introduced household goods. A complaint that was made to us by people, in particular those who were living in private rented or socially rented housing, is that home improvements were not a lot of use to them but that they would like furniture or to replace their kitchen or to do those kind of things.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I will move on because I am conscious of the time. I apologise if I am being abrupt to Ms Higgins now.

I would like her to please look at the expenses, travel and accommodation costs for staff and the board from 1 January 2014 to 21 November 2016. When I looked at this initially for 2014 to 2016, staff expenses, staff accommodation and staff travel looks as if it has gone down but not if one reads it downwards.

Staff accommodation and travel expenses for 2014 and 2015 amounted to €14,834.51 and €14,788.57, respectively. Post-review, in 2016, accommodation and travel expenses amounted to €11,978.04. That does not suggest to me there has been any radical change. In regard to the board, travel and accommodation expenses in 2014 and 2015 amounted to €11,744.03 and €27,170.19, respectively. In 2016 the figure was €10,688.73 which is comparable to the 2014 figure. I will comment later on the services provided by Caranua. In terms of expenses, I do not believe there was any radical change between 2014 and 2016.

Ms Mary Higgins:

I am sorry, but I am not sure I understand the Deputy's question on travel expenses and the changes that should have occurred.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The point I am making is that, bearing in mind the level of media coverage, the complaints made and the Comptroller and Auditor General's 2015 report, it does not appear that any of this was taken into account in 2016, given the level of staff travel and accommodation expenses.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Is the Deputy saying the expenditure should have decreased?

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Yes. Prior to 2013, expenditure on salaries and wages was €188,000. Ms Higgins referred to people being at the heart and centre of the service. In 2014 expenditure on salaries and wages amounted to €791,000. For that amount, Caranua managed 33,751 calls, of which it only responded to 15,348, less than half the number of calls received. In 2015 expenditure on salaries and wages increased to €1.32 million and the service managed 67,604 calls, but, again, it only responded to half of those calls. Despite a massive increase in expenditure on salaries and wages, the service still could not manage all of the calls received. The figures to which I am referring were provided by Ms Higgins. In 2016 expenditure on salaries and wages increased again to €1.492 million and the service managed 44,582 calls, of which it only responded to 19,776.

Ms Higgins referred in her opening statement to 20 to 30 calls per claimant. Despite increased expenditure by Caranua on salaries and wages - I am not saying the 24 staff are not entitled to salary increases - the service is only managing to respond to fewer than one third of the calls it receives.

Ms Mary Higgins:

I do not know from where that information is coming.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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It is included in the information provided for the committee.

The information provided tracks incoming post only. In other words, there is no tracking of outgoing post. Despite Ms Higgins' comment on claimants being at the centre of the service, that does not appear to be the case.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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As a vote has been called in the Dáil and there are likely to be a number of other votes called, we will suspend the sitting until 2.30 p.m.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies for the lengthy suspension but the timing of the voting in the Dáil was outside of our control. In regard to the questions posed prior to the suspension by Deputy Madigan, the Deputy cannot, unfortunately, be here this afternoon but I will allow the witnesses an opportunity later to put any responses they may have in that regard on the record.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Has each of the witnesses read the Ryan report?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I have not read it from beginning to end as it is a very lengthy report but I am familiar with it.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is worth reading. It is the background to what we are discussing now, as it is to the redress board, which we discussed this morning. This is important for survivors because sometimes a blaming attitude comes across from institutions generally. During our earlier session, I read into the record some of the conclusions of that report, including that the deferential and submissive attitude of the Department of Education and Skills towards the congregations compromised its ability to carry out its statutory duty and so on. I do not believe that applies only to the Department of Education and Skills.

In regard to the congregations, one of the many recommendations is that they examine how their ideals became debased by systemic abuse, how they came to tolerate breaches of their own rules, and when sexual and physical abuse was discovered, how they responded to it and those who perpetrated it. It is important to reiterate that the congregations were specifically asked to examine their attitude to neglect and emotional abuse and, more generally, how the interests of the institutions and the congregations came to be placed ahead of those of the children who were in their care. Leaving aside the specifics of that recommendation, there is always a danger that an institution will become more important, particularly so in the case of Caranua.

It is a big challenge to ensure the institution does not become more important than what it was set up to do. Ms Higgins would acknowledge that. It has only been functioning for three years. Is that right?

Ms Mary Higgins:

It began at the end of March 2013. It is not quite four years but it is nearer to four than to three.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Let me just put my questions and if I am wrong on anything, Ms Higgins can correct me. It was set up in March 2013. It did not start receiving applications until January 2014. Is that right?

Ms Mary Higgins:

That is right.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When it was set up in January 2014, what did Ms Higgins do other than advertise? Obviously Ms Higgins had time in addition to advertising and making these schemes known to work out the processes, policies and mission statement.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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May I interrupt the Deputy for one second?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I have to go out for ten minutes to another meeting. Will Deputy Connolly propose that Deputy Cullinane takes the chair in my absence?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes. I propose that Deputy Cullinane takes the Chair.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Ms Higgins had nine months to sort out all of the procedures and policies.

Ms Mary Higgins:

The question is did we do that in the nine months we had.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.

Ms Mary Higgins:

No, we did not. When I was appointed on 10 April 2013, I was on my own.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Was Ms Higgins on her own completely?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes. I inherited staff from the Education Finance-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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But Ms Higgins was not on her own.

Ms Mary Higgins:

I inherited staff from the-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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How many staff did Ms Higgins inherit?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I inherited three staff from the Education Finance Board. One left in June, another left in July and one remained with us until last year. Setting up an organisation is not that easy. There is work that needs to be done. It takes time to establish policies, procedures and all of those things. Most of the time spent during 2013 was on staff recruitment and consulting and designing the application procedures and the scope of what it is we would be doing. Then we began very early in January 2014.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Very good. So Ms Higgins had a considerable period within which to look forward, anticipate challenges and problems and work them out. There were no applicants, as it were, bothering Ms Higgins during that time. I will put it slightly more positively. There were no applicants coming in taking Ms Higgins's time during that time.

Ms Mary Higgins:

No, there were not applicants coming in taking our time.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Ms Higgins had ample time to foresee and plan.

Ms Mary Higgins:

We did spend the time planning.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Good. Then in January 2014 we start receiving applications. Anybody can answer my questions. I am not addressing them to a particular witness. There is a board. Mr. O'Callaghan is chair of that board.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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He should feel free to answer these questions. From January 2014 onwards, for the following three months, the organisation is simply overwhelmed. Is that accurate? How many thousand applications came in? I think it was 2,500 in three months. The witnesses should correct me if I am wrong.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes, it was round about that. There were 1,200 applications in the first month and then 800. I think there were 2,600 in the first quarter.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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So the organisation was overwhelmed. Is that right?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes. The context was that we were not ready because we had five staff and an extra three that came in in December 2013 in order to try to be ready. When the applications came in it was overwhelming.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Absolutely. I have to ask these questions. There were nine months in which to anticipate this. The commission had reported. Ms Higgins knew exactly how many applications were going to come before the organisation. I forgot Mr. Yeomans's role.

Mr. David Yeomans:

I have been director of finance and corporate affairs since July 2016.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Where did Ms Higgins go with her difficulties when she had so few staff?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I do not understand.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Where did Ms Higgins go? This is a major problem. The organisation is overwhelmed. What happened? Did Ms Higgins report to the board and tell it?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes, of course we reported to the board.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Perhaps I could come in here. I became chairman at the beginning of 2014. The previous chairman resigned on health grounds. What I found was an organisation that was overwhelmed by the number of applications. I found an organisation that was understaffed and that did not have proper processes in place. It took time to get those right. The board put them down as a priority. To give the committee an idea of how understaffed the organisation was, in 2015 we got in Mazars, which is an organisational consultant, and it said we should have 24 staff to deal with the volume of work we had. The Deputy can imagine how difficult it was to work with four or five.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When did Mazars come in?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

It came in in-----

Ms Mary Higgins:

The recruitment was carried out in the middle of 2016.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The recruitment for Mazars-----

Ms Mary Higgins:

For the full staff team.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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No. I asked when Mazars came in.

Ms Mary Higgins:

The end of 2014.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Mr. O'Callaghan was in the middle of telling me about Mazars and I interrupted him to ask him when Mazars came in.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

We made two attempts to address the staffing issue with the help of the Department of Education and Skills, which was very much appreciated. We got in temporary consultants from a recruitment firm for a short time.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Who were they?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

CPL.

Ms Mary Higgins:

We got agency staff through CPL Healthcare.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

That was to help us with the backlog. We realised earlier on that we were just not giving the service we should to the survivors.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is acknowledged in the report.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Yes, there is no question about it.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Caranua has acknowledged it.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

We have to put our hands up and admit it. There is no question about it. We were giving an appalling service. We had to do something about it. We first tried agency staff to deal with the backlog.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When Mr. O'Callaghan says agency staff, is that to get employees in to answer the phones?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

It was to answer the phones and talk to survivors to assess their needs and advise and help them to make their applications.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Okay.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

While we did make some progress, it was not sufficient so the board decided we would get in people who were experts in setting up organisations. That was Mazars, which came in in late-2015. It reported-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When did Mazars come in?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

It was in 2015. It reported and recommended a complement of staff that could address the type of work we were doing. We got the sanction from the Education and Skills and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to hire those staff and we now have those staff hired.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Caranua has a full complement of staff now.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Yes, we have a full complement of staff.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Mr. O'Callaghan can see the difficulty from my point of view.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Yes. We were not prepared for this. There is no question about it.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Can somebody from the Department of Education and Skills explain how this was allowed to happen? Nine months after the organisation was set up it was completely overwhelmed as soon as it opened for applications.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú:

We were working with the board and the chief executive. There was a strong desire that the board would put in place arrangements to begin to receive applications-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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My question was that there were nine months so how did the Department or any other Department that was relevant allow this to happen? There were staff in place, albeit not enough, and it goes on until January. I will not waste my time repeating it. How was this allowed to happen?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú:

There was a statutory body established, which was in a position to undertake the work. We engaged with the chairperson of the board and the senior executives.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When did the board come into place?

Ms Mary Higgins:

March 2013.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Mr. O'Callaghan was not there from March 2013. Who was chairman before him?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Ms Sylda Langford.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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She was there before Mr. O'Callaghan as chair.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Yes, before me.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Mr. O'Callaghan came in in January 2014.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I came in in April 2014.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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April.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú:

We worked with the board and the agency to support it as best we could in recruiting staff and responding to its needs. We and the board had a strong desire to begin to receive applications because with the establishment of the board it was important that it was able to begin to receive applications. The board indicated, following engagement with the Department, that it was in a position to begin to receive applications from early January 2014 and it proceeded on that basis. We knew it would be a challenge to do that but we felt Caranua was in a position to commence doing that and beginning to provide a service to the members.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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But it was not.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú:

It was not ready.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Mr. O'Callaghan has said it was an appalling service.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Yes, it totally underestimated the type and quality of the service that Caranua has to provide.

I have over 52 years experience in the public service, 29 of them were in the Revenue Commissioners and I have never come across a service provision quite like this.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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In what way?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

In that this is not the same as an applicant filling in a form for a pension or passport or tax-free allowance. This is about dealing holistically with all the requirements of an applicant, a survivor. It is not just a form which is filled in; an assessor rings them, contacts them, and looks at all their needs and takes them through the whole process in a very sympathetic manner to find out what they need across the broad spectrum of services, whether it is housing, health or education. I do not want to overstate it but it is a very complex operation.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is not complex at all. I appreciate what Mr. O'Callaghan says and have read about it. I realise that he is talking about a whole-life approach and I take that on board. However, it is not complex. There is €110 million to be administered to a finite number of people - it is the case we know it is finite?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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And we know it is even less than the finite figure that is coming from the redress board because of death and age and people not bothering and people worn down by the system.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Yes we realise that.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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All that money was available before the applications opened and Caranua knew exactly what to expect. The maximum was what the redress board had told Caranua, but Mr. O'Callaghan knew from experience that was not going to happen, is that correct? All right. In the space of time Caranua has been there, which is three years, from March 2014, how many outside companies, apart from Mazars, have been brought in for auditing, control, and financial control?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I think we had three. We had people in to do our internal audit, Capita.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Capita and Mazars were the two I came across, how many others?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Our accountancy services are also outsourced.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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And there were external reviews. List them.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

We had a firm to help us with our strategic plan.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Could Mr. O'Callaghan list them? In the short period of time this organisation has existed, is it correct that there was a year and a half with no financial controller?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

That is right.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There was no financial controller for the whole of 2015 into July 2016, despite the Comptroller and Auditor General raising issues about internal controls. In fact, he gave Caranua the thumbs up on its accounts but said there were problems with internal processes.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

We are addressing all of those and we are in much better shape.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Caranua may well be in much better shape, but I am about to come to the survivors or the applicants who have dealt with it who might not be in much better shape as a result of the process. I am glad to hear that Caranua might be in better shape. I want a list of the reports commissioned to ensure that Caranua's processes were in order.

Ms Mary Higgins:

I can do that. There is a report from our accountants in 2014 on our payments process and another one on our internal controls process.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There were outside accountants for that.

Ms Mary Higgins:

That function is outsourced, yes. They did those two reports.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What are they called?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Crowleys DFK.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What were they looking at?

Ms Mary Higgins:

At the payments process and the internal financial controls.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What did that cost?

Ms Mary Higgins:

We will find that figure. The next report was Mazars.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What did that cost?

Ms Mary Higgins:

We will get the amount in a moment.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Ms Higgins has heard my question. I have heard of Capita and Mazars and these accountants. Who else is there? List them and how much it has cost so far to ensure proper controls are in place. There is also the Comptroller and Auditor General's office. I will park that for the moment.

I reluctantly return to Ms Higgins' public remarks and my colleague raised them this morning. Does Ms Higgins think it is appropriate to give interviews of that nature and make those comments on "Liveline" and in The Irish Times? Would Ms Higgins like to apologise and withdraw them and move on or does she stick by them?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I already addressed that earlier. I said the way in which it was presented was regrettable and I understand that it may have caused offence. If it did I am very sorry. What I said was not quoted exactly.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Let me quote them exactly. I want to get on to the issues. I am not a personality person and I stay with issues but Ms Higgins went on "Liveline". I do not want to insult the applicants by repeating the language that was used, that "these people are damaged, the hole in them cannot be filled by what we do, unfortunately". Did Ms Higgins use that language? Did she say that?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I did not listen to "Liveline" while I was on it.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Did Ms Higgins take part in "Liveline"?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I did take part in "Liveline". I did not hear it. I do not know for certain that I said that, but it is the reality that the damage that was done to people placed in institutions when they were children is profound and lifelong. Part of the damage causes people to not expect other people to want to do something good. I can understand that. We are the face of the State, the State that did this to people. It is understandable that they would be angry with us.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I want to use my time for the other issues. I am asking Ms Higgins if she withdraws those comments.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes, I withdraw them.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Unreservedly?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I unreservedly withdraw them.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Thank you. They should not have been made.

Let us move on to what happens when Caranua writes to applicants to tell them their case is closed. Has that happened?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes, because we complete applications when someone has gone through the process of the needs assessment and identification and agreement has been reached as to what services will be paid for by Caranua. Then the case is completed. We have a finite number of advisers and it is not possible to keep all applications open all the time.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Mr. O'Callaghan is on the board. When did he sign off on this policy that applicants would be written to and told their case was completed?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I do not think that we signed off on that as a policy.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am asking Mr. O'Callaghan as chair of the board, about the board.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

We took this as a normal operational matter, the matter of writing to people to say their cases were closed was not a decision of the board.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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This board has been set up under statute, and it has a duty. Policy and procedures are set by the board.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The time is up.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I would like to finish on the board. Mr. O'Callaghan is the CEO and he has a job to do. He is paid for that job. The board has a separate job. When did it meet and discuss this and change policy that applicants would be written to informing them their case had closed?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I do not have a date for it, but as far as I can recall, new applicants were not being dealt with. Existing applicants who had received cheques and had been satisfied in some of their requirements were reapplying and remained top of the queue. The decision we made was to prioritise the new applicants who had not got any attention or any services to date.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I understand that and the board is entitled to look at prioritising.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

We did not make any decision to write out to people, or a certain cadre, to say that their cases were closed.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The board is entitled to make policy and do what it did and we are entitled to see how it arrived at that decision.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

There is no question about that.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There was no decision at board level about instructing the executive to write to people to tell them their cases were completed.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

No, not as such but if operationally, a case is completed -----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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This is a scheme that was set up to apply on a needs basis. Therefore, an applicant comes forward on that basis. I understand Caranua was applying the policy on that basis and that, therefore, an applicant might have come back again on that basis and been assessed accordingly. I am asking a very simple question. When did that policy change?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

There is no question that people who receive services cannot reapply for others.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I asked when the policy was changed because a substantial number of letters were sent to applicants to state their cases had been closed, or they were told on the telephone that they had one bite at the cherry, or words to that effect. I see a head nodding. I am going to come back to Ms Higgins about how many letters went sent. Mr. O'Callaghan is clearly telling me that no policy decision was made at board level. There was no decision to write-----

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

No, not to my knowledge.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy David Cullinane.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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As I am due to speak in the Dáil at some point, I wonder whether I could let some of my colleagues go first and then come in.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy will only be away for 20 or 30 minutes. We will be here at least that long.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Chairman.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy will get his chance to speak when he comes back.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I asked these questions of the wrong group earlier. I attached them for Caranua.

On the recently introduced funeral expenses, is it true that expenses are paid in advance to undertakers?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes. That was an additional service we introduced as part of the 1 June changes to our criteria. It was introduced because many survivors had said they really wanted it because the fear they would have a pauper's funeral was very significant. The board considered the issue. We sought legal advice on whether we could, under the terms of the legislation, introduce funeral expenses. Caranua, obviously, is not a permanent institution. It is temporary, but we wanted to make provision for the future for people who were not at the point of passing away. The agreement was that we would prepay funeral costs to funeral directors.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does that mean that the survivor, or any individual, is not party to the contract? He or she has nothing to do with it because Caranua is paying. The survivor has no say in the matter and cannot enforce the contract. Caranua has limited life expectancy and will close in a couple of years. How will the relatives of the survivor obtain the benefits of the service in years to come? How has it been set up? The funeral has been paid for with an undertaker of someone who is expected to die in ten, 20 or five years' time.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes. It is not without survivor involvement.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It seems to be a bizarre arrangement.

Ms Mary Higgins:

The applicant is involved in the process and selects the funeral director. Applicants come to us with a proposal.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Could family members look after it rather than going to the undertaker?

Ms Mary Higgins:

It was expressed to us that they did not want to leave behind a debt for their families or be a burden. There is a fund to help to meet their needs. They identified the issue of funeral costs and we responded.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is it true that some survivors are approaching undertakers and looking for some of the money? That is a bad system.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes, I accept that. We built the system on trust and will now have to look at how we put a more watertight contract in place between us, funeral directors and applicants.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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As a layperson, the arrangements seem to be very strange.

Ms Mary Higgins:

If somebody is making arrangements for his or her funeral in the future, he or she will pay into an insurance or other kind of fund. It is that kind of idea, except that we are paying all of the money at once.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How are funeral expenses in five years' time known? Does the undertaker sign up to a contract?

Ms Mary Higgins:

That is what we are putting in place.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to ask about people who cannot read or write. I am told that there are some survivors who are not able to read or write and that they were looking for others to work as a third party on their behalf. Because of this, their cases have not been processed. Is that true? Does Caranua allow a third party-----

Ms Mary Higgins:

Absolutely. It would not be a barrier in somebody making an application to us because we do not require that somebody to fill in a form. We have forms and it is up to the person concerned to decide if he or she wants to do it by himself or herself, to get somebody to help or not to do it at all. We can help people over the telephone or by some other means.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will Caranua accept a third party to represent or work on a person's behalf?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Absolutely.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did not think it did. I am told about a survivor who wants to have a hip replacement but was terrified of going into hospital. The lady needs this essential surgery but is afraid. Is there any outreach service to advise and help her along? I am told she is afraid to go into hospital to have a hip replacement.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Has she been in touch with us?

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I cannot tell Ms Higgins that. I am told that she is waiting for an operation but is afraid to go in for it. Does Caranua have a service to advise her?

Ms Mary Higgins:

We can advise her. I encourage her to make contact with us.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms Higgins said Caranua would be finishing up in 2018 or 2019. What will happen after that with the funding available? How will it be allocated to survivors? What will happen after 2019, being a fixed date?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Our fund is limited. It is €110 million. Our expectation is that there will not be any left by then. The Deputy may not have been here this morning when I read my opening statement-----

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I was.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Our plan is to try to ensure other services will be able to engage with survivors in order that care will continue.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Therefore, it will be continued by some other agency.

Ms Mary Higgins:

In a different format. It is about services rather than giving out money to survivors.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Ms Higgins think all of the money will be used by that time?

Ms Mary Higgins:

That is our expectation. We will be engaging in another exercise shortly to look at targets and projections.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it true that the CEO of Caranua gave money back to the Catholic Church for counselling services for which it had already paid? Can Ms Higgins explain that?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I can. I think it is-----

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What kind of money is involved?

Ms Mary Higgins:

The position is not that we have been giving money back to the Catholic Church but that we will pay for counselling if that is what people are looking for. There are a number of counselling services in place. Towards Healing is one of the counselling services funded by the Catholic Church. It has a limit on the number of counselling sessions survivors are able to have and we will pay if there is a need for additional sessions. We also pay for other counselling services.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that all Ms Higgins means by "paying the Catholic Church"?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I am guessing that is what is meant.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On expenses, representatives of Caranua held meetings in Cork, Galway, London, Manchester and Birmingham. They involved big expenses. The figure mentioned here is €20,000. Is that normal and reasonable, or excessive?

Ms Mary Higgins:

That would not be the cost per session but the cost over a period of time which might be one year. Mr. Yeomans will have the exact figures. We are in a situation where we know that there are about 15,000 people who are eligible to apply to us. We even know their names and addresses, but we cannot use that information for any purpose other than verifying that they are eligible to apply to us. We cannot contact them directly or write to them. As we cannot make any contact with them, we are very dependent on trying to raise awareness. We are also conscious - this is the feedback we have received from survivors - that they want to see people. They do not want to deal with them on the telephone. Our outreach clinics and events are one way we do this. We organise the events and publicise them through survivor support groups and in other ways. Advisers are present and they can be in a private room and see people individually. It also gives survivors an opportunity to meet other members of staff and, on occasion, members of the board.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do Caranua representatives travel to London, Manchester and Birmingham on a regular basis to meet people?

Ms Mary Higgins:

We are reviewing the position and what we are looking at is working in a smaller way in local areas where we suspect there are survivors and applicants.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sure there are big costs involved.

Ms Mary Higgins:

There are costs involved.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sure there would be costs involved in flying and staying overnight.

Ms Mary Higgins:

There are costs involved, but it costs money to provide a service.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With regard to eligibility and the draft terms of reference, the Minister is reviewing them. As it is a review, certain things could be examined. Will the potential to make a one-off payment to remaining survivors be considered?

Ms Mary Higgins:

The review is being undertaken by the Department of Education and Skills. It is a review of the eligibility criteria in applying to us. It might be better to-----

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is Caranua open to suggestions?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I think the Department is in the process of seeking suggestions on the terms of reference to be considered in the review. Even though I understand the date has closed, I am sure it would be possible for somebody to submit a late proposal.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

All of the proposals I have to make could be examined. They have probably been made already, but I do not know.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Quite possibly.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Caranua would look at and take them on board.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Of course.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Caranua is still subject to the Comptroller and Auditor General's report every year.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Therefore, the money would have to be spent every year.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Higgins.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry I was not present for the opening statement. Matters moved quicker than anticipated this morning. I thank the witnesses for attending.

The opening statement mentioned the importance of protecting the confidentiality of survivors. The board meeting of 23 March 2017 confirmed the view that Caranua had the authority, in cases where applicants had not provided receipts, to go directly to the supplier without the permission of the applicant. What impact has this had on the survivors? Does it threaten their confidentiality? Is there not a breach in that regard?

Ms Mary Higgins:

It is a decision that was only taken recently. Two of the key issues the Comptroller and Auditor General raised with us were about quotations and receipts.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Ms Mary Higgins:

In terms of financial controls, not having both is not very good. We have been prevented from following up on receipts because of the way the legislation is drafted and the fact that under section 23 we cannot betray a connection between an applicant and us. It has never been possible for us to go to suppliers to get receipts. We are in a situation where the return of receipts is quite low relative to the number of payments made. That has been pointed out by the Comptroller and Auditor General and is something on which we must take action. We cannot ignore it. One of the ways we can do it is by going directly to the supplier where receipts have not been returned. We would not do this in every case and would not do it without telling people that we would be doing it.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has it been done so far in any case?

Ms Mary Higgins:

No.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What impact does Ms Higgins think it will have on the survivors?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I imagine that some people will be quite pleased because they will not have to go to the bother of getting receipts and sending them to us. However, we have not started it yet and will have to do something about it. As I said, the tension between delivering care and being compliant with good financial controls is ever present.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the balance wrong?

Ms Mary Higgins:

It has been difficult for us for many reasons. I believe the way forward is for us to have contracts directly with suppliers. That would cut out the need for applicants to be involved in the obtaining of receipts and quotes. That is the direction we are taking.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Notwithstanding that Caranua is doing its best and the Comptroller and Auditor General is doing his best under the rules that govern him, is it fair to say the system, as it stands, is inadequate for Caranua to do its work?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Our system.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, the system. The Comptroller and Auditor General has a job to do which involves receipts, auditing and so forth. Given the delicate job Caranua has, is the system inadequate in providing care for the survivors?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes. In the general system one is looking at people who were very poor as children-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know all of that. However, the answer is yes.

Ms Mary Higgins:

I think it could be improved.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fine. I will move on. I presume the impact of auditing might add stress.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes, but that is the world in which we live. The challenge is to try to balance those two things.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know that is how the world is. However, the system is inadequate for Caranua to do its job, notwithstanding that the Comptroller and Auditor General has done an excellent job under the rules that govern him.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Let us say it is challenging.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay, but that is a nice way of saying it is inadequate.

With regard to the €15,000 limit and bearing in mind that some of the matters included in the Act are extensions, home improvements, upgrades and the like, in a layman's view, €15,000 will not cover much work. Realistically, is that limit prohibitively low in terms of the vision and ambition of the types of service that should be available under the Act?

Ms Mary Higgins:

The limit was only introduced with effect from 1 June 2016. To date, the response from the majority of applicants has been very supportive of that approach. However, we said we would review the matter in 12 months and it is something we will be examining.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What does that mean?

Ms Mary Higgins:

It means that we do not know. We made the changes partly because-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How did Caranua come up with the figure of €15,000?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I was just about to say that. Obviously, we have a fund that is limited. We have a number of people and do not know exactly how many of them are likely to apply. We were looking at a situation where a small number of applicants had received a large amount of the fund and said that if we were to continue spending money in that way, it would be spent very quickly and that, perhaps, we might not reach all of the people who could potentially apply to us. Under the legislation, we are required to deliver our services in a way that is fair and equitable. To address this, we looked at the sums and decided on a figure of €15,000. In fact, the average value of payments to date is €13,000.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was it a case of drawing heads together at the board and deciding to divide the number of likely applicants-----

Ms Mary Higgins:

Not quite. It was slightly more sophisticated than that, but, in essence, it was about looking at the fund and what was left.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was actuarial expertise used in the determination?

Ms Mary Higgins:

No. Financial expertise was used.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was it financial expertise in terms of actuarial or certified accountants?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Accountants.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Effectively, an accountant made a pitch.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What analysis was used in terms of the survivors? Were there accountants for them?

Ms Mary Higgins:

No. There are four survivors on the board and obviously they were involved.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay, but there were no financial people specifically to indicate the types of things that could arise. Unless one is talking about very limited works to a new home, €15,000 will not cut it.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Many of the people who were coming to us were saying, "We rent our house, so we are not going to benefit from the home improvements."

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Realistically, the schedule of services prescribed under the Act is not available because €15,000 is too low-----

Ms Mary Higgins:

No, I do not accept that. That is not true at all. They have only been going for the last seven or eight months and we need to give them another while. We will then review it and if that is what the review tells us, we will have to think about it again.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What proportion of decision-making is weighted towards the budget rather than care?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I will say this again because it is really important. Survivors are at the heart of what we do.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

However, Caranua does not have the money to do what it wants to do.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes, but we have to see ourselves in the context of the overall range of services available for survivors. We are in place and time limited. There are public services available. There are possibly other services that could be made available to them also. Part of our role in dealing with individual survivors is ensuing they are getting what they should get. If somebody is looking for home improvements, for example, we will not just say, "Yes, there you are." We look at who else should be providing for them. We look at what the local authority or somebody else is doing also and will continue to do so.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will Ms Higgins explain the new system of prioritisation?

Ms Mary Higgins:

We have two criteria in prioritising applicants.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What are they?

Ms Mary Higgins:

One is that the person be aged over 70 years and the other is having an urgent health need.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On what basis does Caranua consider prioritisation of new applicants, considering the purpose of a needs-based scheme?

Ms Mary Higgins:

New applicants are people who have not received anything from us at all. What we call "repeat applicants" are people who have made applications, gone through the process, received payments and whose applications have been completed. As the Chairman described, we were constantly dealing with repeat applicants who were returning for more, which meant that new applicants were not getting a look in. The decision was made - I believe it was in July 2015 - to prioritise new applicants over repeat ones.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When was that?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

July 2015.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many applicants were left outstanding by that?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Outstanding?

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms Higgins stated that there were repeat applicants. Since they were not new, they fell down the-----

Ms Mary Higgins:

None of them fell down. Whatever application is received, be it new or repeat,-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They all get done.

Ms Mary Higgins:

-----it is triaged. If a repeat applicant has an urgent need, he or she will be given attention the same as a new applicant. However, where there is no urgent need, repeat applicants are queued behind the new applicants.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many have been affected by that?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Altogether, we had approximately 900, but they are not waiting. We have dealt with a number of those. The current backlog of repeat applicants is approximately 300.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What efforts did Caranua make to consult survivors, notwithstanding the four on the board who have a say, before the implementation of the prioritisation policy or the introduction of the financial limits?

Ms Mary Higgins:

We consult survivors on an ongoing basis. We meet survivor support groups regularly. We deal with survivors day in, day out.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know that, but did a specific consultation process on this €15,000 limit and the prioritisation take place?

Ms Mary Higgins:

No, because the prioritisation was something that we had to do in order to be faithful to the legislation.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not saying that Caranua did not have to do it. Clearly, it may have been necessary, but was it an oversight not to enter into consultation before determining a prioritisation policy and a €15,000 limit? The accountants were there and there were four survivors on the board, but what of the broader-----

Ms Mary Higgins:

The limit came from survivors themselves. Having heard of people who had received a great deal, they felt that it was unfair-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What was the largest payout?

Ms Mary Higgins:

It was €100,000.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did many receive more than €50,000?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Mr. Yeomans might read that out, as I am flustered.

Mr. David Yeomans:

This is a list by volume and by value. In bands, two people received more than €100,000 each. There were three in the band up to €90,000. Three received between €80,000 and €85,000. All the way down to approximately €35,000 accounts for 5% by cumulative volume, but that 5% received approximately 20% of payments.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many received more than €50,000?

Mr. David Yeomans:

That was 1%.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No. In numbers.

Mr. David Yeomans:

Forgive me. Forty-nine people received more than €50,000. Representing 1% of the volume of the 5,000, they received almost 6%.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When did the penny drop with Caranua that that could not continue, given the potential of 14,000 further applicants?

Ms Mary Higgins:

After opening for applications in 2014, it was only towards the end of that year before we made payments, so it was when we moved into 2015 that we could see the spend. The Chairman will see what 2015 looked like from our graph. It was mid-way through 2015.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could Caranua not foresee some people returning? I will allow Deputy MacSharry back in, as I am probably cutting across his question.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No bother, and I am sorry for flustering Ms Higgins.

Ms Mary Higgins:

It was not the Deputy's fault.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We do not want Ms Higgins flustered. I have lost my train of thought, though. Could the Chairman remind me-----

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy is flustered now.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----what it was before he took over?

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are all flustered.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will take over if Deputy MacSharry wants.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, Deputy Cullinane will not. We were on consultation and the lack thereof.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would Ms Higgins accept that it was not the best way forward?

Ms Mary Higgins:

We spoke informally to survivors when we went through the process, and then we-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There was no formal process. When Caranua was speaking to people, it might have asked them what they thought of €15,000.

Ms Mary Higgins:

No. We do not have a formal process of consultation. It tends to be something that we do on a regular and informal basis.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Might I suggest that-----

Ms Mary Higgins:

We are now working on a meaningful engagement strategy. It will be-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----Caranua should adopt one?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes. There are a number of survivor support groups, and they are an obvious place to go, but they do not necessarily represent all of-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is no shortage of survivors.

Ms Mary Higgins:

No. It is about getting to them.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are support groups and Caranua knows that they exist, but will Caranua adopt a formal, periodic process?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there any timeframe for that?

Ms Mary Higgins:

We consult regularly currently, but we need to deepen it. We will do that this year.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Make it more formal and so on.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There were changes to the classes of service allowable under the scheme, but I thought that these would have required statutory approval. What changes were made in 2015? This is not Caranua's specific function, but were the changes laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas?

Ms Mary Higgins:

No. They did not need to be.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Under the Act.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Under section 9, the board is responsible for determining the criteria for approved services. It can take account of circumstances and put approved services and applicants into classes.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Caranua could reduce or increase services in line with its own views without consulting the Minister or the Oireachtas.

Ms Mary Higgins:

We would not do it without consulting departmental officials. The legislation is clear, in that it is the board's responsibility.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The board decides it.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú:

Subject to working within the classes determined in the Act. Obviously, the board could not go beyond-----

Ms Mary Higgins:

I am sorry. I should have said that.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Were classes determined in the Act excluded or added to?

Ms Mary Higgins:

We have added to them. The Act sets out many health services that are somewhat equivalent to those set out in the Health (Amendment) Act. It also refers to housing and education services. We still do housing. Our objective in helping people with housing supports is to ensure that they can remain at home safe, warm and secure so that they are not returning to institutions late in life. Our health objectives - being active and socially connected - are based on evidence of what worked for people suffering the effects of adverse childhood experiences. These are not specified exactly in the legislation, but we have included a number of services that can be claimed under them. I am referring to, for example, social clubs, gym memberships and services like that that are low cost but valuable in terms of their impact on people. Our education objective includes self-development.

The classes of service have not strayed from the legislation. We have strayed a little in terms of funeral costs. They did not clearly fit, but we argued that they fitted in under health and well-being because applicants would feel happier if they knew that their funerals would be paid for.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have two final questions. Evidence from a health professional is required for all housing and health-related services. Does Caranua pay for that or does the survivor?

Ms Mary Higgins:

We pay.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In all instances.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Even though my application might not be granted, Caranua pays for-----

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes. It is something that is required for us to consider the application.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand that, but in the event that I apply and am not approved,-----

Ms Mary Higgins:

We pay for that. Often, we arrange it. We have a panel of occupational therapists on whom we call.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What problems were there with preferred suppliers and survivors? Did any arise?

Ms Mary Higgins:

We are only just entering into the preferred suppliers business now. We have the panel of occupational therapists.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did survivors raise issues about that?

Ms Mary Higgins:

About preferred suppliers-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Ms Mary Higgins:

-----or the occupational therapists?

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Not necessarily them. Has Caranua a broader list? This is not just about occupational therapists, but other services.

Ms Mary Higgins:

The Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland will undertake energy efficiency work. It will be our preferred supplier.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has any survivor indicated to Caranua that this is a problem or concern?

Ms Mary Higgins:

When we undertook a pilot project in 2015, a couple of people felt that their independence was being challenged by our having preferred suppliers.

We are trying to balance these things all the time. The Comptroller and Auditor General had difficulties with not having quotes and receipts and preferred suppliers is the one of the ways we can do that. If we have panels, there is a choice within them.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am guessing consultation was not a formal part-----

Ms Mary Higgins:

Of preferred suppliers?

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Of the organisation's entry into that.

Ms Mary Higgins:

We talk to and are in contact with survivors all the time, day in, day out. We listen to what survivors say and we consult survivor groups as well but we have 6,000 applicants.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Notwithstanding that, is it fair to say that there was no formal consultation process?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes, that is true but we are not in breach of any commitments that we have made.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not saying Caranua is. It is not a question of sticking to the rules; it is a question of providing the best service that the organisation can. It is not a box ticking exercise. Is it true that its procedures manual to ensure transparency of decision-making is kept secret?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Our procedures are published in our application-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there a procedures manual that is not given out?

Ms Mary Higgins:

We have a number of internal procedures manuals. We have standard operating procedures for every action that is done in the course of our work. Has the Deputy a particular procedure in mind?

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, I just wanted a "Yes" or "No".

How is success measured? What metrics are used to establish whether the organisation has met the wishes of survivors under the scheme?

Ms Mary Higgins:

We are about to tender for somebody to do an evaluation of the impact of our service on the quality of life and well-being of survivors. That will be one thing that we will do but we are constantly gauging the temperature of satisfaction through our interaction with survivors and we have an internal complaints mechanism. Our statistics show that since we started that in 2015, we have had 154 complaints. Our mechanism has three stages - one is where it gets sorted out where the complaint arose; two is where a manager is involved; and three is where it goes to internal investigation. We have had five internal investigations. Relative to the number of transactions and activities that occur within the organisation, there are few complaints. That is not to say there might be people who are dissatisfied but if they do not come to us, we will not get to hear about it and we are then unable to do anything about it.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is back to consultation. It seems there is a great deal about to happen.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the witnesses. What was Ms Higgins's role before she took up her position in Caranua?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Immediately before, I worked as an independent management and social policy consultant. Before that, I was the founding director of the homeless agency within Dublin City Council.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding the first post, who did Ms Higgins work for?

Ms Mary Higgins:

The independent consultancy was for me. I was self-employed.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about before that?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Dublin City Council. Before that, I was a director of Threshold. Before that, I worked in immigrant advice. Before that, I was in Cherish, which advocated for single parents.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Higgins did a report in October 2010 for St. Stephen's Green Trust.

Ms Mary Higgins:

That is right, I did.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What is St. Stephen's Green Trust?

Ms Mary Higgins:

The trust is a philanthropic body which asked me to develop a socioeconomic profile of survivors of institutional abuse because they were thinking of looking at this group for their grant programme, which is how I came to read the Ryan report so thoroughly. Much of what I reported on was based on that.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is it correct that Mr. O'Callaghan worked for more than 30 years in the public service, mainly in Revenue?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Forty years or more. I retired as Secretary General of the Department of Defence in 2004. Prior to that, I was assistant secretary in that Department. Prior to that, I was in various grades in the Office of the Revenue Commissioners for 29 years.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O'Callaghan described the service that Caranua provided earlier as "an appalling service". Could he elaborate on that?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

We just were not treating people properly, mainly because of lack of staff. We were not dealing with applications in a timely fashion.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. O'Callaghan elaborate on "not treating people properly"?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

If an application for a service is lying on someone's desk for three, six or nine months, that is appalling.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There was a dire staff shortage that led to pressures on staff.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Absolutely.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did that pressure impact on interaction between survivors and staff in terms of the quality or the professionalism of the service?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I am sure survivors were quite rightly annoyed.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That would be an understatement.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

It would.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was Mr. O'Callaghan chairman of the board when he said this? When did he make this statement?

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He made it earlier when the Chairman was absent. I was in the Chair.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My mistake. Did Mr. O'Callaghan make that statement earlier?

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry. I was out for a few minutes.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Musical chairs. I would like to acknowledge Mr. O'Callaghan's honesty and the fact that he has put that on the record. That is important because we all have received correspondence from survivors who have raised concerns about the level of service they received, the quality of the service, and their interaction with the organisation. There is some acknowledgement that there were problems, albeit that they are primarily being put down to staffing pressures. Mr. O'Callaghan has at least acknowledged that it was an appalling service. Would Ms Higgins describe the service as "an appalling service"?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I would not describe it as an "appalling service" because when people get service, they get a very good service, by and large. The fact that people were waiting and we could not tell them how long they would have to wait is definitely not good but I would not like to give the impression that in terms of the interaction with applicants-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But Ms Higgins's chairman did and he talked about the treatment of people. I asked him to elaborate.

Ms Mary Higgins:

And it is about the time waiting.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Not necessarily. He elaborated a little more than that. If the chairman is saying it was "an appalling service" but the chief executive officer does not agree, that troubles me. Why is there a conflict in this regard?

Ms Mary Higgins:

We are not at odds. I am just trying to jump in in defence of people who work in Caranua.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would rather that Ms Higgins did not defend anything; I would rather that she would be honest with us when questions are put if she-----

Ms Mary Higgins:

I am being honest in saying that what we do is deliver a good service to survivors. The difficulty has been that people have been waiting.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

By extension, that is not a good service.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Because if someone is waiting too long, it cannot be described as a good service.

Ms Mary Higgins:

I completely accept that.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would Mr. Ó Foghlú describe the service as "an appalling service"?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O'Callaghan has indicated he would like to contribute.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

I was talking historically of course. I was talking about earlier on; I am not talking about the service we are giving at the moment. I was talking about when we started off in 2014, 2015.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will not be unfair to anybody. I heard exactly what Mr. O'Callaghan said and I understand the context.

Mr. David O'Callaghan:

It was appalling and I gave the staffing as the reason for that. The service we are supplying now is a totally different service.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand the context in which Mr. O'Callaghan said this but from its conception until now at some point he said the service was "appalling". I understand the context in which he said that and the time to which he referred. I acknowledge that but I am putting the same question to Mr. Ó Foghlú.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú:

I do not disagree with the general description put by the chairman and the chief executive officer of the initial service provided.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Given the pressures on staffing levels, the high volume of requests, the difficulty in processing all the information, the tension with the survivors who were trying to access services as quickly as possible, and the organisation not being able to deliver on its mandate, would that have led to an adversarial system?

Ms Mary Higgins:

No. I have described the number of complaints we have received. It was very fraught at the beginning. Survivors were very frustrated because the residential institutions statutory fund had taken a long time to be established. They were impatient and they were more impatient when we opened and we were not able to respond.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who was impatient?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Survivors, the applicants and rightly so. I do not say that in a derogatory way.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

"Frustrated" would perhaps be a more appropriate word.

Ms Mary Higgins:

They probably were frustrated and it was difficult to deal with that because there was a mismatch between the demand for the service and the number of people we had to deliver it.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay.

I want to draw Ms Higgins's attention to two areas. She spoke about consultancy firms that were appointed to do certain jobs of work. Mazars was one of them and Capita was the other.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Capita is employed as our internal auditor.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. How much did Mazars-----

Ms Mary Higgins:

It did an organisational review.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

An organisational review, which was essentially to tell Ms Higgins how to do her job. Would that be a fair assessment?

Ms Mary Higgins:

No, it was partly to give assurance that we were doing our job and what we needed to do in order to do it better. That review looked at our whole organisation, including our application processes and systems.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Were terms of reference set out for Caranua? A mandate was given to Ms Higgins in terms of her role. Was that given by the Department?

Ms Mary Higgins:

The legislation is our terms of reference.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The legislation does that. I am wondering why Ms Higgins would have a needed a company to inform her as to what she needed to do. She was employed because she applied for the job, she has a certain skill set, she went for interview and got the job. Other people were working there and with the mandate she was given, she should have been able to do her job. Why was there a need to employ the services of this company and how much did that cost? Did that cost come from the budget or was it a separate cost? Ms Higgins may have applied to the Department to cover those costs.

Ms Mary Higgins:

To take the last question first, all costs, including the costs of the independent appeals officer, come out of the fund, and that clearly stated in the legislation. The costs of the Mazars review was €24,666.42.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Some €24,000 was spent on consultants. Has Ms Higgins project management experience?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes. I have.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Have other staff in the organisation project management experience?

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes, but the point about staff and consultants is that there is an issue of skills and time. We get consultants to give us something that we are not able to do either because we do not have the resources internally or because we do not have the skills.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms Higgins can understand why these questions would be put. This seems to be coming up a great deal in organisations funded by the State. We employ people to do a job and they go off and employ consultants at more cost.

Ms Mary Higgins:

I think it is true and it is a very good point. There seems to be a pattern of establishing State bodies and each State body seems to go through the same early pain of establishment and trying to get everything in place. That is a good point and perhaps there is a way that could be streamlined for everybody.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How much of the work of Caranua was outsourced? Ms Higgins mentioned something about that earlier.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Outsourced?

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Outsourced as in work being done by outside organisations.

Ms Mary Higgins:

None.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

None.

Ms Mary Higgins:

No. What was referred to earlier was that we used a company that provided us with agency staff at one point.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. How many agency staff would it have provided?

Ms Mary Higgins:

At a maximum, it was about 12

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Twelve. On page 6 of the briefing note that Ms Higgins provided, there is table 1 and I ask if it could be put up on screen. I want to raise an issue that is important in terms of doing a look back exercise which, unfortunately for us, is all that we can do. It has been acknowledged that the level of the service for survivors was poor and appalling in the past and, for them, this adds insult to injury. We need to make sure that mistakes are not made in the future in terms of any organisation. There is a pattern here when we see what is revealed by a look back exercise. From table 1 we can see that the audited accounts for 2014 show that the cost of salaries and wages was €791,000, that figure increased to €1.3 million in 2015 and to €1.492 million in 2016 and it is now at its highest in 2016. When we note the volume of work which is set out underneath, it shows there was much more activity going on in 2015 than there was in 2016. At a time when the number of people applying for the service, the number of applications to be processed, the number of telephone calls received and so on are reducing, staffing costs have increased. It strikes me that we have gone the wrong away around on this. At a time when staff were needed, we did not have them and now when the service is starting to be scaled down, the cost of staff salaries is at its highest. Can Ms Higgins see that problem in the first instance?

Ms Mary Higgins:

We had a backlog in the beginning and we are only getting to the point now of getting on top of that. What we are presented with as we go forward is the opportunity to enhance the quality of interaction we have with applicants.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can Ms Higgins stick to the question I asked? I draw her attention to table 2, on the screen, which covers applications by years and associated activity. In 2015, the cost of salaries was €1.3 million, having jumped from €791,000 the previous year. The cost of salaries was €1.3 million in 2015 and €1.492 million in 2016. If we note the activity, 1,228 people applied for the service in 2015 and 585 applied in 2016-----

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----which was fewer than half number the previous year yet staff costs have increased. In 2014, 3,821 applied for the service and at that time the cost of staff salaries was only €791,000. At a time when 3,821 were applying for the service, the cost of staff salaries was €791,000 and at a time when 585 people were applying for the service the cost of staff salaries is €1.492 million. I am not necessarily blaming Ms Higgins for this, it goes back to points that were made earlier. I suggest that again this is another botched job. We do things backwards. When the organisation needed the staff, it did not have them, and when the activity of the service is beginning to wind down staff costs have increased. Can Ms Higgins appreciate that point?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has made the point and he might let Ms Higgins explain the position.

Ms Mary Higgins:

The people who came into the service in 2014 did not necessarily get dealt with from beginning to end in 2014 and so they move across the years and we have been carrying a backlog. These are activities that relate to services. Because people come into the service, it does not mean they have come in and gone, they come back. The Deputy is right. I completely understand what he is saying, namely, that if we had the staffing at the beginning, we would not have had the backlog, the quality of services would have been better and perhaps we would be winding down staffing at this stage. We are where we are and we need to realise the opportunity presented by the staff that we have to really make a difference to the lives of survivors.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I do not doubt that is Ms Higgins's intention but the phrase "we are where we are" refers to a situation where the overall cost here is €1.5 billion of the overall cost of dealing with abuse.

Ms Mary Higgins:

Yes.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We dealt earlier with the contributions we are getting from the religious congregations, which is quite a small amount. Again, I do not accept the argument that we are where we are. Why do we always end up in that space? We get the forecasting wrong. We did not anticipate the level of activities there would be when the organisation was set up. The same problems keep recurring. People appear before the Committee of Public Accounts, they acknowledge mistakes were made and they go out the door. The Secretary General, who is the Accounting Officer will go out the door, and we could be back here in one, two or five years if the same problems arise. It gets a bit tiring and it is difficult for us because all we can do is put questions.

Ms Mary Higgins:

I completely accept that and I can understand that would be frustrating. The evidence is very clear here. In organisational terms, we are a very young organisation and, for us, 2013 was not a full year. We have only a few years under our belt. I agree completely with the Deputy that there are ways that we can collectively do more to get those things right in the first instance.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay.

Ms Mary Higgins:

The only thing I can say in this case is that the Comptroller and Auditor General made recommendations and we are in the process of implementing them. We are not going away and not doing anything about them. Similarly, Mazars made recommendations and we have implemented all of those.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I accept that.

I have two more questions. The first concerns the counselling services that were provided. Were some of those provided by organisations funded exclusively by the religious orders, or organisations which are an extension of religious orders?

Ms Mary Higgins:

There is the National Counselling Service, which is funded by the HSE and the Connect counselling service, which is an offshoot of that, and it is simply a telephone service. There is the Immigrant Counselling and Psychotherapy service, ICAP which is based in the UK, although it deals with people here and there is Towards Healing, which is the organisation that is funded by the religious orders.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Would survivors have been made aware that Towards Healing was funded by and was an extension of the religious orders?

Ms Mary Higgins:

It has been established for a very long time and there was never a secret about it being-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am not saying there was a secret. I am asking if, when the service was provided, people were made aware, given the sensitivities involved. Does Ms Higgins understand what I am asking? Were they made aware?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I do not know. It was established before my time.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Ms Higgins think they should have been made aware?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I am sure they were. That is what I am saying. I also-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will Ms Higgins find out if they were made aware?

Ms Mary Higgins:

I cannot answer because I was not there when-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Will Ms Higgins find out for the committee if they were made aware?