Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I move:

That Seanad Éireann: – having regard to the conclusions and recommendations of the Report of the Scoping Inquiry into Historical Sexual Abuse in Day and Boarding Schools Run by Religious Orders, published on 3rd September, 2024;

– noting that it is the opinion of the Government that these matters of significant public concern require, in the public interest, examination by the establishment of a Commission of Investigation;

– noting that the Minister for Education and Youth has led the Government's consideration of these sensitive matters;

– noting the factual information compiled and the specific matters identified for further consideration in the Report of the Inter-Departmental Group on the Recommendations of the Scoping Inquiry into Historical Sexual Abuse in Day and Boarding Schools Run by Religious Orders, which has assisted in informing Government considerations on the scope, format and terms of reference for a Commission of Investigation; and

– further noting that a draft Order proposed to be made by the Government under the Commissions of Investigation Act 2004 (No. 23 of 2004) has been duly laid before Seanad Éireann on 9th July, 2025 in respect of the foregoing matters referred to, together with a statement of reasons for establishing a Commission under that Act; approves the draft Commission of Investigation (Handling of Historical Child Sexual Abuse in Day and Boarding Schools) Order, 2025 and the statement of reasons for establishing a Commission of Investigation.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I call the Minister, who has ten minutes. Group spokespersons have ten minutes each and all other Senators have four minutes each.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the opportunity to introduce this motion to the House. I acknowledge the survivors whose courage and commitment have brought us to this point. I sincerely thank every single survivor for their bravery, whether they were in a position to come forward or not. In particular, I thank the late Mark Ryan and his brother David, who joined us yesterday in the Houses. I acknowledge the many survivors of historical sexual abuse in schools who told their stories in the years before Mark and David came forward and the hundreds who have come forward since the RTÉ radio documentary "Blackrock Boys" was aired in November 2022.

The Ryan brothers and the many others who came forward to disclose their experiences of historical child sexual abuse in schools have had a central role in the developments that have brought us here today. Of course, this is not the first time that the State has had to confront an appalling legacy of child abuse and the need to inquire into past failings. We have had such discussions here only in recently weeks.

The Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse published its final report in May 2009, revealing the extent of abuse suffered by thousands of children in residential institutions managed by religious congregations. Those shocking revelations of historical abuse in institutional settings forced us to confront a dark chapter of our past. Now we are faced with revelations of widespread and often brazen historical sexual abuse of children in day and boarding schools. Once again, we must confront a painful and shameful history as we seek to lance this national wound.

As a result of the revelations that followed the Ryan brothers' courageous disclosure of their own experiences of sexual abuse in schools, the Government established a scoping inquiry into historical sexual abuse in day and boarding schools run by religious orders. The scoping inquiry was independently led. I acknowledge the work of Mary O'Toole, who carried out the scoping inquiry, and indeed my ministerial predecessor, Deputy Norma Foley, for all her work in this area.

A trauma-informed survivor engagement process was central to the scoping inquiry, and this saw survivors consulted widely on what they considered should be included in a Government response to historical sexual abuse in schools run by religious orders. I commend the scoping inquiry team for undertaking this sensitive work with great care and compassion.

So many survivors of historical child sexual abuse did not have a voice. Some could not say what had happened; others were not heard or believed. The scoping inquiry's survivor engagement process entailed a distinctive approach, providing each participant with the opportunity to tell the scoping inquiry about their experiences and what they wanted to see happen next, in a safe environment.

As many will recall, the scoping inquiry was told of 2,395 allegations of historical sexual abuse in schools run by religious orders, involving 884 alleged abusers in 308 schools across the country between 1927 and 2013. Devastatingly, a considerable number of those allegations related to special schools. The scoping inquiry made 14 recommendations informed by the views of survivors, including the establishment of a commission of investigation. It recommended that the commission should examine the handling of allegations and concerns of child sexual abuse in schools and that its remit should be broadened to include all schools. It recommended that the commission should include a survivor engagement programme and that it should take a survivor-centred and trauma-informed approach.It recommended that the commission should include a survivor engagement programme and that it should take a survivor-centred and trauma-informed approach.

The report of the scoping inquiry was published on 3 September 2024. A high-level interdepartmental group, IDG, was immediately established to advise the Government on the recommendations of the scoping inquiry and to prepare draft terms of reference for the commission of investigation. The Government immediately accepted the primary recommendation of the scoping inquiry, which was to establish a commission of investigation. To date, it has accepted 13 of the 14 recommendations of the scoping inquiry. Several of the recommendations relate to the remit and operation of the commission of investigation.

The Government has agreed to appoint Mr. Justice Michael MacGrath, an eminent judge of the Court of Appeal, as chair of the commission. Mr. Justice MacGrath brings considerable experience to this role, having been appointed a judge of the High Court in January 2018, and appointed to the Court of Appeal in June 2024. I again thank him for agreeing to carry out this very important work. He will be assisted in the work by a number of commissioners and a support team.

The scoping inquiry's report sets out not just the devastating accounts of the sexual abuse that participants experienced as children, but the impact on their education, the loss of opportunity in school and the often lifelong impact on relationships, employment and their sense of self. Participants' accounts of there being no place or sense of safety in their schools represents the most egregious breach of trust by those responsible for running those schools. Some participants spoke of loss of community, childhood, faith, family and even country, as the aftermath of what they experienced trickled through every facet of their life. Others spoke of the difficulty in telling anyone what had happened, and a deep sense of shame and guilt. That shame and guilt do not belong to the survivors; it belongs to those responsible for child sexual abuse in schools. What is clear from the scoping inquiry is that survivors want accountability. They deserve accountability. The establishment of the commission represents the Government's commitment to a serious response, in which we seek to understand the past so as to inform the here and now as well as the future. The terms of reference of the commission have been prepared by the interdepartmental group and they closely reflect the recommendations of the scoping inquiry. Crucially, at every step, the work of the interdepartmental group was centrally informed by the views of survivors, expressed so powerfully in the scoping inquiry's extensive survivor engagement consultation process. Since the report was published, many others have come forward for the very first time, whether to support agencies or to report what happened to them to An Garda Síochána. Through their harrowing accounts of their own experience, the scoping inquiry participants have paved a path for others who may now choose to tell their stories to the commission.

The commission will have a remit to examine the handling of sexual abuse in all types of schools. This wish was expressed by many survivors, and it is one I strongly support. I know that many others do as well. The commission will investigate concerns of child sexual abuse and failures to treat such concerns in a manner that protected children. It will examine the causes and responsibilities for those failures and, importantly, it will have the power to compel witnesses and documents, which was a key concern for survivors who participated in the scoping inquiry. Schools, persons and entities responsible for, and associated with schools, An Garda Síochána, the HSE and its predecessor and successor organisations and the Department of Education fall within the ambit of the commission's terms of reference. While I expect voluntary co-operation from any group or entity that the commission wishes to engage with, I note that the scoping inquiry reported that it had received positive engagement. I want to emphasise, however, that such co-operation is required and it is enforceable.

Survivors want to know why child sexual abuse was so prevalent in some schools and contexts, why it happened and why it went on for so long. As a society, we need to understand the impact of child sexual abuse in schools and, crucially, we need to learn for the future. A common wish for many survivors is that they want to be sure that what they endured can never happen again.

The commission will investigate matters of critical importance to survivors, as they so eloquently described to the scoping inquiry. These include: actions taken or not taken where concerns of child sexual abuse arose; failure to prevent harm to children where concerns of child sexual abuse arose; failure to report concerns to the appropriate authorities; concealment of child sexual abuse; whether laws and guidelines were followed; whether persons suspected of child sexual abuse were permitted to have access to children, or moved to other locations or institutions; whether there were co-ordinated actions with regard to child sexual abuse; and the approach taken toward criminal prosecutions and civil litigation.

A core priority for survivors is the need to see this process conducted efficiently and in a timely manner. That is why the terms of reference require that the commission completes its work within five years. Within the first two years, the chair is required to confirm his belief that this is achievable, or to propose any modifications that may be required to facilitate completion within five years. I want to be clear on that point: this is not an opportunity for the chair to seek an extension, it is an opportunity for him to set out whether it is feasible to complete the work within five years. If it is not, the commissioner will have to change the way they are working so the five-year deadline can be met. Survivors have been clear that they want to see outcomes in their lifetime, and I am absolutely committed to making sure that this happens.

To that end, the scoping inquiry's recommendation that the commission adopts a sampling approach is provided for in the terms of reference. The commission will conduct an initial national survey as it seeks to establish the potential volume of witnesses and evidence that may be available to support its investigations. It will then select samples for detailed investigation, informed by what survivors relate to it in the national survey.

The commission may consider child sexual abuse in schools between 1927 and 2013 in its report. The commission has the power to reduce the time period under investigation as it considers appropriate, depending on available evidence, and this will allow it to concentrate on periods of time that may provide answers for more of the survivors who come forward in the national survey. That is very much at the discretion of the commission. It is something it does not have to do but may choose to do depending on who comes forward and what information is available.

It is important to state that the commission will also have a survivor engagement programme that will run parallel to its formal investigation. All survivors who wish to provide an account of their experiences to the commission will have the opportunity to do so through this programme. I emphasise that the survivor engagement programme is non-adversarial, and survivors will be able to provide their account in private, in a supportive environment without cross-examination. The survivor engagement programme can also hear from a relative of a deceased survivor, and it is completely anonymous. This reflects the views of survivors expressed in the scoping inquiry report that any process would need to accommodate survivors who cannot, or who do not wish for whatever reason, to speak publicly about what happened to them.

The survivor engagement programme is one element of an overall survivor-centred and trauma-informed approach for the commission. This will include consultation and clear communication with survivors, training for the commission's team in working with those who have experienced childhood sexual abuse, and implementing practical steps to minimise risks of retraumatisation. While implementing these measures will be a matter for the commission itself, I know that this is of great importance to Mr. Justice Michael MacGrath.

I emphasise that the terms of reference for the commission explicitly require it to promote support for those with additional needs to facilitate an accessible and inclusive process wherever possible. The scoping inquiry highlighted the devastating extent of allegations of sexual abuse in special schools, and it is critical that all reasonable efforts are made to ensure that this process is accessible from the outset, in all aspects of its work.

The commission is independent and will begin its work in the coming months. An initial period of consultation with survivors and other stakeholders, including those in the disability and additional needs sector, will be an important part of that work, in advance of a national survey as set out in the terms of reference. When the commission has the necessary arrangements in place to begin its engagement with survivors, that will be widely advertised to ensure that as many people as possible are aware that the commission is doing its work and that they can contribute to it and be part of it if they so wish.

The scoping inquiry made a number of other recommendations, and 13 of its 14 recommendations have now been accepted. The area of redress is extremely important for survivors not just to ensure that the institutions and religious orders responsible for the schools where child sexual abuse occurred are held accountable, but that they are also held financially accountable.

The report of the interdepartmental group advises that more work must be undertaken on any potential scheme. Any scheme must be funded by those who ran the schools where the abuse occurred. To be clear: all potential mechanisms that can be brought to bear to secure the funding from those responsible for sexual abuse in schools must be considered, and they will be considered. This work will include looking at potential changes to the Statute of Limitations for civil claims, changes to the status of unincorporated associations, examining the assets of the relevant religious orders and other bodies with responsibility for running schools, as well as other options.

I fully recognise how important redress is for survivors as a measure of accountability for what they experienced as children and the lifelong impact it has had for them and their families also. This is why more work, and more analysis is required regarding financial redress. I emphasise that this work will happen in parallel to the work of the commission. It is vital that the work of the commission proceeds without undue delay. That is why the Government has approved the establishment of the commission now, as the other work continues in parallel.

The Government has also accepted further recommendations of the scoping inquiry. These relate to the experiences of victims of sexual violence in the criminal justice system. The zero-tolerance strategy is a whole-of-government approach to combating domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, with a very clear focus on how we can improve not just the justice system but the entire system to support victims of sexual violence.On engagement on memorialisation, something that came through clearly on the scoping inquiry is that there is not a clear agreed position on what memorialisation would look like but it is so important that we never forget what has happened here. This commission will allow us to look again at how we can ensure that happens. The recommendations also relate to supports for survivors throughout the commission's work and further strengthening child protection in schools.

I note that the scoping inquiry found that the current child protection systems in our schools are effective. My Department takes child protection very seriously and considers that the protection and welfare of children is a fundamental responsibility of all involved in the care and education of children.

However, I am aware that more can always be done. I have no doubt that more should be done at present. My Department is establishing a child protection in schools group, as recommended by the report of the scoping inquiry, to further strengthen those robust systems. This group will deal with overarching child protection policy and will provide updates as required to the commission of investigation in the course of its work in relation to child protection in schools, and will have to ensure all those responsible for child protection are part of that group and are feeding into any of the work it does.

I acknowledge that there is a strong culture of child protection in schools now, and the vital role played by our school communities in that regard. Many of the survivors who came forward to the scoping inquiry explained that they felt compelled to do so because of their need to be sure that what they endured would not happen to another child, and their greatest priority was often to ensure that lessons would be learned to ensure the ongoing safety of children in schools going forward.

Today is an important day and, indeed, a difficult day for many survivors who experienced the devastation of child sexual abuse in our schools. I thank them again. In particular, I recognise Mark and David Ryan for the service they have done. We would not be standing here, I believe, without their service, and essentially them telling their own story. Mark has left an immeasurable legacy. From having met with David recently, I know he is determined to continue what they started together. I want to say to him here today that we stand with him and all survivors in doing that by establishing this commission of investigation. I, again, thank every single person impacted for their bravery and I thank all colleagues for their engagement on this important matter here today.

Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for coming in today. I suppose we are all considering this motion with a deep sense of responsibility and with a conviction to support it and the establishment of the commission of investigation into the handling of historical child sexual abuse in day and boarding schools. This is a long-overdue recognition that the education system and the institutions that govern it harboured dark and painful truths. It is a moment that demands honesty, empathy and a firm commitment to justice.

For too long, what happened in these schools remained hidden behind closed doors, protected by silence, by fear and by systems more concerned with reputations than right and wrong. Children, some no older than six or seven, were subjected to acts of unspeakable cruelty and physical, emotional and sexual abuse by adults in positions of authority and trust. Teachers, members of religious orders and caretakers, who should have nurtured and safeguarded these children, instead inflicted lifelong trauma. These were not distant or isolated institutions. These were our local schools. They were embedded in every town, village and parish. The abuse that occurred in them has left scars not only on individuals but on entire communities. The silence around that abuse, the shame, the disbelief and the denial spread across generations. Families were torn apart by what was done to their children and by the burden of not being heard. Survivors were often disbelieved, dismissed and retraumatised by institutions that should have been their source of protection.

This commission of investigation is not only about uncovering what happened; it is about understanding how it was allowed to happen and why it was allowed to continue unchecked for so long. The commission will investigate how schools and those associated with them responded to allegations of concern. It will examine whether reports were made and whether known abusers were quietly transferred to other schools or allowed to continue to access children. Even in my own community, I remember being a 13-year-old schoolboy and our teacher being taken out of the classroom by the gardaí on a particular day. The commission will look at whether the authorities, be it the Department of education, An Garda Síochána or the health services, acted appropriately or turned away. Crucially, it will listen. The commission will include a dedicated survivor engagement programme designed not as a legal forum but as a space where survivors can speak freely without fear of cross-examination and without the weight of having to prove or defend their pain. Let me say clearly that every survivor who wishes to share their experience will be heard.

As we shine a light on these painful truths, we must also be fair and not only in our judgment. It is vital to acknowledge that not every teacher or member of a religious order was complicit in abuse. Many devoted their lives to the care, education and well-being of children in their charge and we must not allow the actions of some to stain the reputations of all. Indeed, many of those who served honourably were as appalled and broken by the silence and inaction as the survivors themselves. At its heart, this commission is not about blame; it is about truth, accountability and healing. It will operate independently, led by Mr. Justice Michael MacGrath. It will have the scope, resources and supports it needs to uncover the facts and make clear evidence-based recommendations. Its work will cover a broad timeline from 1927 to 2013, which is 86 years. Importantly, it will not be limited to schools run by the religious orders. All day and boarding schools are within its remit because safeguarding and justice must not be selective.

I welcome the Government's commitment to begin this work without delay. Survivors have waited long enough. While the complex issue of redress is still under active consideration, this will not prevent the commission from moving forward. Let me also stress that the work of the commission is not simply about the past; it is about our present and our future because if we are serious about protecting children today, we must understand where we failed them yesterday. We must learn from those failures, not only in policy and procedure but also in culture and attitude. We must build a society where safeguarding is not a box-ticking exercise, but a deeply embedded moral obligation where children are believed, transparency is the standard and silence is no longer the shield of the powerful. We must ensure that survivors, those who were let down so gravely by the State, by religious institutions, by schools and by society itself, are at the centre of this process. Their bravery, in coming forward and speaking out, has brought us to this point. We owe them more than words. We owe them our actions.

This is one of the most difficult, but necessary, conversations this State must have. In passing this motion, we acknowledge the pain and injustice of the past but we also commit ourselves to a future that is more honest, more just and more compassionate. I commend the motion and I offer my full support to the work going ahead. May this commission bring light and truth, healing to survivors and lasting change to the way we care for and protect our children.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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First, I welcome the Minister and her officials here. At the outset, I am struck by the empathy and the detail of the Minister's statement here today and I welcome it. It pulls no punches. It sets out clearly the Minister's position and that of the Government and I really welcome that. It is articulate and yet nuanced and something that is positive. There is no ambiguity about it and I thank the Minister for that. I thank the Minister for the enormous clarity, particularly when she states, "The commission will investigate matters of critical importance to survivors", and lists them clearly.

I am conscious I want to keep my contribution simple. First, I want to thank a few people. In thinking about what I might say here today, I was conscious of Louise O'Keeffe from Cork. It took Ms O'Keeffe 40 years to get justice against the might of the Department of education, the might of the State and the might of the school in Cork eventually with her tenacity, her conviction, her belief and her sharing of her lived experience, and, of course, the European Court of Human Rights ruling in January 2014. Ms O'Keeffe is, therefore, in my mind and is someone we owe a great debt of gratitude to. There is also, as the Minister said, Mark and David Ryan, and their amazing work.I could go on and on listing people. I particularly want to mention the students of St. Augustine's School, Blackrock for their courageous testimony which saw a man sentenced to five years in prison last week. That was a brave thing for those people to do. It is a special needs school. They were men who needed help and support. I travelled some of the journey with two of them. It was not an easy task. Every child is vulnerable but they were particularly vulnerable.

I also think of the people from Newpark, the school I went to and the Gibney accusers and allegations. I knew of Gibney because he was there during my time in the 1970s. I knew many people who lobbied this State and Government to have him extradited many years ago and were given many excuses. I looked at pictures on the RTÉ news of this week of Newpark, which is a famous and excellent school in Blackrock. Colour graphics of the pool and that individual against whom the allegations are being made were shown. I also met a few people of my own age and younger who went to the school. It struck me that they have no one to turn to. I am conscious that we need immediate counselling. We need to support those people now, as this starts evolving and going out into the media. For the past two weeks they have watched news reports from America about the extradition. They are reminded of their experiences by footage of pool's blue tiles with the insignia of Trojan Swimming Club. We need active support now for people who feel vulnerable.

I thank the journalists and wider media, particularly the journalists from RTÉ who produced the documentaries on "RTÉ Investigates". They have done a lot of work. I also thank Mary O'Toole. I notice and welcome the initiative from her original report, which was a report on the scoping inquiry into historical sexual abuse in day and boarding schools run by religious orders. That is what the caption was back then. We now have the more bracing and fairer commission of investigation into historical sexual abuse in all schools, because that is important. I do not think we should draw a distinction between religious and non-religious schools. It is a welcome measure.

I put down a few points that I wanted to touch on, namely, transparency, responsibility, accountability, strengthening child protection, independent oversight, listening and supporting and redress. All known abusers must be fully investigated and the details of their crimes published regardless of the perpetrator's position or rank. The Minister has confirmed that here today, for which I thank him. On responsibility, those who have failed through acts of cover-up, turning their heads the other way or neglect must be held accountable. That ties in with the issue of accountability. The most important point is the issue of strengthening child protection. Arising from the court case brought by Louise O'Keeffe, she stated "Nothing is going to change the past, but we can protect the children of the future." That is the task. That is the challenge. That is what motivates me and continues to spur up hope. I am leaving here today with hope. I can honestly say that. I am hopeful that we are going to have strengthened child protection and that every organ of the State and every institution must implement the full range of child protection policies. They must review them regularly and ensure they are being applied.

On the issue of independent oversight, abuse must never be dealt with internally. External, independent bodies are needed to investigate and monitor all instances of abuse. They must be followed up and recorded. Likewise, listening and providing support are vital. We must listen and support the affected and make sure their voices are heard. A recurring theme I hear time and time again - I used to say it to myself - is "One day I will tell my story and I will be believed." That is powerful. One day, each and every one of us will tell our story and we will be believed. It is liberating and important in terms of what we are dong here.

On redress, I read an article attributed to the Tánaiste, Deputy Simon Harris, that appeared on the front page of Saturday's edition of The Irish Times. I welcome that because he, like the Minister herself and the Minister, Deputy Norma Foley, have been powerful advocates. I pay credit, as has the Minister today, to the Minister, Deputy Foley, for her work and engagement on this issue. As I have stated previously, including to the Minister here last week, redress comes in many forms. That is important and it is not all about money. There are things like counselling support and there are different cohorts of people with different backgrounds who have different issues. It is important that people get redress and it is not all financial. In tandem with this, as the Minister has confirmed here today, we will continue to work out how we are going to bring redress. It is important. Quite frankly, "sorry" is too simple and too short a word. It is a word people move on from. That is not something people want. They want to be understood, they want to have a voice and they want redress. The most important thing is that we do not run away in time. Resources must not run away either. Let us bring justice. I am highly impressed by what the Minister has said here. It is clearly a strong roadmap of hope. It appears that eventually something is going to be done. I hope that within weeks, the Minister will put in place the resources and supports needed for people who are asking questions like whether this the time to tell their story, whether they will have the supports, whether there will be a slur on their character for a range of reasons or whether they will be asked did they visit this on themselves.

I genuinely thank the Minister for the work she had done and for this important document. None of this could have come out without the courage and bravery of the survivors who continue to struggle. It is a never-ending and evolving process. It is a pathway and walk that has to be constantly navigated. You will hear again and again about the high levels of anxiety experienced by victims of abuse. Their antennae is up all the time. Their alertness is there. They are there because they were on their own most of time trying to keep themselves safe.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Before I call on the next speaker, I welcome to Seanad Éireann the members of Knocklong Men's Shed, who are guests of Deputy Richard O'Donoghue. One of the most famous rescues in Irish history happened in Knocklong many years ago during the War of Independence. Pat O'Dea from Dromod is here as well, along with Maurice and Ellie from Granard and Templeglantine. I thank them for being here. They are in the Distinguished Visitors Gallery. If they were in school, I would tell them they had no homework for the rest of the year, but my guess is they may have left national school last year or the year before.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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I acknowledge Mark Ryan and his brother David, who was in the Dáil Gallery yesterday, for their tremendous work in this regard. This commission is welcome but it certainly is not before its time. Irish society and the State need to reckon with our painful and shameful history of violence and sexual violence against children in our schools. This needs to inform our future as a nation. I want to record my utmost respect for survivors, those who spoke out, and everyone who has brought us to this point. They have done a huge service to us all. Speaking out about what they experienced and calling it out have come at a personal cost for so many. Openness and transparency have to be paramount to this process. The Minister has said that survivors will not be put through a cross-examination process. It is important that we do not retraumatise survivors and we minimise that impact as much as possible. My party leader, Deputy Ivana Bacik, published a Bill that would facilitate the child sexual abuse proceedings against unincorporated associations, including religious orders, and would provide a mechanism for recovering damages from the lay-run trusts set up by these bodies and to which many of their assets have been typically transferred.I understand this Bill has been sent on to the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach. A response is needed on this and how we progress it because the State must be able to compel these orders to provide redress and justice. It is welcome that this process will ensure that survivors with additional needs are able to access it. I share the concerns that Inclusion Ireland have highlighted about this as well. How will this inquiry co-operate with the Garda on information sharing and how will we ensure the survivor's expectations of criminal justice will be met?

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a bheith sa Teach seo inniu. This afternoon's discussion centres around possibly the most sinister acts of evil that were ever carried out on this island; preying physically and sexually on vulnerable children who had their innocence stolen from them and, in many cases, the rest of their lives destroyed. I am conscious of the words of Senator Boyhan in our previous discussion on the industrial and reformatory schools that we remember not every teacher and member of the clergy is or was an inherently bad person. Many of them make a real impact in their communities and are genuinely good people. That said, the dark actions of some leave a lasting legacy of damage and hurt that we must address.

Today's announcement by the Minister of a commission of investigation into the handling of historical sexual abuse in all day and boarding schools marks a significant moment for our State. Fianna Fáil fully supports the establishment of this commission, which will be chaired by Mr. Justice Michael MacGrath. We welcome the Government's decision to accept in full the primary recommendations of the scoping inquiry. This commission will have the authority and independence required to examine how allegations, suspicions and concerns of abuse were handled in Irish schools. Importantly, it will look not only at boarding schools but also day schools and will include both primary and post-primary sectors.

The revelations from the scoping inquiry were devastating. We now know that more than 2,300 allegations were made, involving 884 alleged abusers across 308 schools between 1927 and 2013. It is hard to comprehend the scale of harm done - not only the physical and sexual abuse, but the trauma too; the mental scars that haunt people for the rest of their lives from the damage done to them by those who should have been building them up and equipping them with the social and academic skills to live a fulfilling life and the trauma of not being believed and being told to keep your mouth shut. The survivors who came forward have shown extraordinary courage. They were failed once by the institutions and by the State but we must not fail them again. Their voices informed the scoping inquiry's findings. Their testimonies helped shaped the terms of reference for the commission and it is their instance on truth and accountability that has brought us to this point. I want to pay tribute to every survivor who spoke up. Their advocacy was instrumental in making this commission a reality.

The commission will now begin its preliminary work. It will include a survivor engagement programme, something that is both welcome and necessary. Survivors must not be sidelined in this process - they must be at the centre. It is their experience, their questions and their right to the truth that must guide this work. I am confident that Mr. Justice MacGrath, with his judicial experience and commitment to public service, will carry out this role with the independence and compassion that survivors deserve. As Fianna Fáíl's Seanad spokesperson on education, I know the damage caused by abuse in schools runs deep; emotionally, psychologically and socially. It affects not only the individuals but their entire families, communities and generations. Many of the schools implicated were not hidden or remote institutions. They were part of the fabric of Irish life. They were schools in every town and every county. This was not some distant tragedy. It is our collective history and we must confront it honestly.

I welcome the Government's commitment to examining financial redress. For many survivors, financial compensation is not about money. It is about recognition and accountability. They want those responsible for running the schools where abuse occurred to contribute to redress. They want a clear message that this State will not just listen and apologise but act. That is why I believe it is right that all possible funding levers are examined in parallel with the commission's work. Redress must not be delayed. We must ensure this process does not become bogged down in bureaucracy or drawn-out legal wrangling. Time is not on the side of many of the survivors.

Equally important is the State's commitment to continue development of child protection. While the scoping inquiry found our current systems to be robust, we cannot afford complacency. Safeguarding must remain a living practice in our schools. Survivors told the inquiry their greatest hope is that no child ever endures what they did. That must be our priority. My own experience as a teacher was that some parents treated teachers with suspicion and scepticism. That comes from that desire to make sure it never happens again. That distrust and general scepticism towards teachers from some people who have every right to feel that way is a lasting legacy of our education system. I also support the recommendations regarding commemoration and memorialisation. Survivors have asked their experience not be hidden away in archives or reports but remembered openly. Memorials, education materials and public acknowledgements are essential tools of healing. This commission is not a box-ticking exercise. It is not about avoiding difficult truths. It is about shining a light on what happened, why it was allowed to happen and what we must now do to ensure it never happens again.

There are still survivors waiting for answers. There are still survivors who have never come forward and who carry their stories in silence. To them I say; you matter too, you are believed and you are not alone. Today, we honour the bravery of those who spoke out, demanded action and who never gave up. This commission of investigation is a vital step forward for justice but it cannot be the last step. It must lead to real accountability, proper redress, meaningful commemoration and a future where our education system protects and builds up every child and upholds the dignity of every human being.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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I wish the Minister a good afternoon. I welcome the commission of investigation into the handling of historical sexual abuse. I welcome the fact it is day and boarding schools and that it is religious and non-religious and it covers all schools. It is not before time. There are many people waiting a long time to air their stories, to be listened to and importantly, to be believed. It is really welcome there is now a format for doing that.

I commend all those who bravely spoke out. It cannot have been easy for them. I also acknowledge the many who were too traumatised to speak out, or are still too traumatised to speak out. We cannot forget about those. It is important they get the supports to engage with the commission. I also want to remember those who are no longer with us because many, unfortunately, took their own lives through suicide as a result of the damage done to them as children when they were abused in schools. The abuse has had long-lasting effects such as suicide, mental health issues, marital breakdown and addiction issues. There are so many ways it has negatively affected people's lives. I welcome the survivor engagement and the emotional and psychological supports provided to people who engage in that process. As many as possible should be encouraged to engage. I echo the call to make sure everything is accessible to people because unfortunately, we know people in special schools were affected by this. Many may have literacy difficulties or other disabilities and we have to make sure that everybody can be reached.

The word historical sometimes suggest that this happened a long time ago. Unfortunately, it is not that long ago. Only last year I talked to a young man who was only in his 30s. He was sexually abused in his primary school by a priest or a brother. He did not tell anyone. He was full of anger. He said when he went to secondary school, he treated all his teachers with mistrust. By his own admission, he said he was extremely difficult to work with in school. He said he was full of anger and missed a lot of school as result. As he moved on in life, his abuser came forward himself and confessed to the Garda about all the boys he had abused in the school. The Garda reached out to this man and his family and that was the first time they were aware there was abuse. That sent him spiralling into another form of abuse where he engaged in drug use and ended up homeless here in the city.

Thankfully, when I talked to him, he had received help and was making his way back. He was dealing with it and getting counselling and support. He told me he was in a shop one day and he saw his abuser in the shop. He said he was an adult standing there and the abuser was an old man. He said his legs still went to jelly and he could not go near him. He could not confront him and he actually hid behind a shelf so he would not meet him. That was the effect that man had on him and so many more. The emotional and psychological supports are so important.

We know the abusers are the guilty ones, ultimately, but so are those who knew this was happening and turned a blind eye, so are those who helped to cover up the abuse and so are those who allowed people to be moved from one school to another so they could continue their abuse and said nothing. It is welcome that everybody will be investigated by this commission. I am aware that some people have stated physical and psychological abuse are not included in this. They cannot be included and they are not within the terms of the commission. However, can something be done for people who suffered extreme physical abuse in school? Sometimes on Thursdays when I leave the House and drive home, I listen to the Joe Duffy show. While I would not normally listen to the Joe Duffy show, after the scoping inquiry was published last September I listened to it while people were coming on and telling stories about the extreme physical abuse they received. The sexual abuse was hidden but the physical abuse was not and in some cases, it was systematic and sadistic. It was horrific. I wonder if there could be some sort of survivor engagement with people who suffered extreme physical abuse?

I am aware that corporate punishment was legal and I remember when it was legal. Children would get a slap on the hand for something they did in school. Obviously that was not correct either. We do not need adults hitting children in school. However, what some people talked about was torture and it was often the same people who were picked on a regular basis. It was psychological in some cases too, where a child who had learning difficulties would be made a show of in the class. They might be made to wear a dunce’s hat. Could something be done, even to allow those people to air their stories? They deserve an acknowledgement of the torture and hurt they went through in school and the long-lasting impact it has had on them. Redress is not part of this as it would be a parallel process but that would be welcome and needs to proceed.

Overall, I welcome this but if something could be done for those who suffered physical abuse it would be welcome.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I thank the Minister and I broadly welcome the commission and the Minister’s statement.

It feels as though we are having the same conversation over and over again, which is incredibly difficult because language, processes and talk and the way we have to then package it, for example, in a commission or the steps we need to take, never fully feel like they match the reality of the situation of people's lives. It is as though we take either an academic language or political understanding and we layer on our own ways of talking about something that is actually quite sick. They often feel so far apart. We question how we can do justice to the experiences of people the moment somebody else who has not experientially had that experience tries to put language on top of it. It is incredibly difficult and it is something I always get quite nervous about discussing, because we often try to distance ourselves from the reality of what might have happened to someone so we can speak about it. However, to be human, we often then have to try to sit still with it for a moment and think about what that must have been like and what impact it must have had. When we let that in, our defences drop a little bit and then it is really difficult to come in and put that into the Chamber.

While I was thinking about it, I was thinking about how as an adult, I spoke about being raped in my 20s. That is obviously not the same as predatory child sexual abuse but I think about the human psychology in how I came to terms with my response to that. In my response to that, I was able to package it in a way of asking myself why I did not fight; why I froze. You berate yourself for freezing and not fighting, because that seems like it is more of an act of taking some sort of power, and that freezing is powerless. Over time you think that actually, since the beginning of time our systems and human make-up have particular ways to protect us and for us to survive. As an adult, I can take in that while experiencing something, my system decided in that moment the safest thing to do was to freeze, and that was going to get me out of the situation quicker and without any violence, potentially. I take that another step and imagine being a child, when one is told to respect teachers and peers and the church, and that they know best, and that they are there to mind you and to keep you safe. I cannot imagine layering that on to an experience.

Where I got really stuck over the past few days was imagining being in a special school and being a wheelchair user or non-verbal with an intellectual disability. What does the adult packaging in my head of my system choosing fly or freeze, mean for a child, especially a child with an additional set of needs who cannot even communicate in the moment, a way to understand what is happening, never mind when he or she is talking to his or her parents? We talk about the power and liberation of being able to give voice to your story and experience but what if you can never talk? What if you are part of that cohort of the 25% of allegations of abuse that happened in special schools? A large number of those kids with intellectual disabilities are approximately 4.6 times more likely to be abused within schools. Imagine being part that cohort, where so many of a person’s functions may already need additional support from the systems and people around him or her, and he or she never gains that voice or way to communicate what happened to him or her. You never get to actually say the words of the depravity and what was taken from you or what was done to you in that moment. That is why it is incredibly important that we listen to Inclusion Ireland when it talks about the terms of reference in relation to the commission and that when we look at where the abuse happened in special schools, those accommodation rights that may be needed for intellectual disabilities are recognised within the terms of reference to make sure that cohort of people can engage in a way that is going to meet that very particular set of needs.

Inclusion Ireland also spoke about the need for legal representation as a form of support for survivors and stipulated commission reports must be published in accessible formats. There are many recommendations and my question to the Minister is, how are we ensuring there is a very particular type of response to that cohort of people that already has certain abilities or disabilities in the world? Such a response is needed there to make sure we can support that cohort. Is the Minister open to amending those terms of reference to reflect that need?

The reason I walk back from my experience is I was an adult with a voice. I was able to create a frame in my head that allowed me to live with something and accept the decisions or non-decisions I made in the moment. However, if we walk back to being a child, and being a child with a very particular set of needs, it brings us to a whole new place of what is needed in terms of a response and a system.

Beyond the schools and in terms of boarding and day boarding, we even have to look at our current settings. When we think of historical, we sometimes think there will hopefully be a time when this is over. There is something about a point in history that makes it seem that this is gone and done. Abuse is still happening in places of detention, care facilities and in other ways. We need to acknowledge that. The Minister was Minister for Justice previously. When we look at the progression unit, there are men I work with in the prisons who have experienced sexual abuse, who will now be vilified for the lives they went on to live from that and denied their experiences of what happened beforehand that led to that. Some of the men were in the progression unit and it was taken over to house sex offenders. Can the Minister imagine being a man in there engaged in an Open University who has moved on to progression and is addressing the psychology, doing all of that, and then he is told his place in the progression unit is gone because sex offenders are going to be put in there?His school experience was completely marred, destroyed and his life was affected forever. He spiralled into addiction and criminality. He has finally engaged in school, albeit in a place where there is a deprivation of liberty - it is not ideal; of course you would want it to be in another way - and now he has been told that although it might not involve the person who abused him, his full-time school and the progression unit is being taken away and sex offenders are being put there, while he will go back to the main jail. It is beyond comprehension that we are looking at what has passed and we are not making sure our current systems are completely trauma-informed and survivor-led, regardless of whether someone is in prison for another issue. Lots of survivors of sexual abuse are currently in the prison system, as are children of those who have survived sexual abuse.

Over the years I have read about studies that say up to six people are affected by each suicide. That is a low number. It is not accurate, but I think that research is from the 1970s. Other researchers and academics came along and looked at the impact of suicide and found that it is actually much broader than that. It can affect up to 130 people in a community, which is evident in suicide clusters and such things. Imagine if we looked at a person who has experienced sexual abuse and we were able to map out how many experiences or lives had been affected by that person's experience of sexual abuse, by how it affected that person's relationships with other people, how it affected that person's children and how it affected how the person engaged with and trusted systems, teachers and so on. The experience ripples out and has a much wider impact than we can imagine. We need to make sure that where it is having those other impacts, we are including the other spaces where people end up.

A core driver of violence is shame and humiliation. One really good way of shaming and humiliating people is to take from them and use their bodies in a warped way. They have to feel that shame and hold it forever. That can often increase their likelihood of inflicting violence. It does not happen for everyone, but it happens in certain conditions. Shame and humiliation are a core driver of violence. When people commit violence as adults we lock them in prison and deny them the victimhood of what happened to them during childhood. We will never fully address what happened if we do not fully acknowledge all the different core drivers of how people's lives are impacted and how it manifests in the world.

I thank the Minister. I hope she will take on board some of Inclusion Ireland's recommendations on the terms of reference so we can address the cohort of people who are the most vulnerable in this conversation, that is those who went to special schools.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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To clarify, the Cathaoirleach used his discretion earlier, as I was covering the Chair, to give the earlier slot to the Cross-Party Group. I used my four minutes so it now Senator Stephenson's turn to speak. She has six minutes.

Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
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Last week's announcement of a commission of investigation into historical abuse is welcome, but it is not enough. The scope of the inquiry is too narrow and by design it risks repeating the mistakes of the past. Sexual abuse is one part, a truly devastating part, of a much wider, darker history in our State. It is a history that includes physical violence, emotional cruelty, forced family separation and the selling of Irish children into adoption overseas. This all happened with the knowledge of the State, and often with the complicity of the institutions of both church and State. Nowhere is this more visible than in Tuam, where work begins this week on the painful process of the exhumation of the remains of the 796 babies and children buried there. Our thoughts this week and in the coming weeks should be with the mothers, children and families affected by this awful scenario. We also have other sites like it, such as Bessborough House.

Catherine Corless, working without funding or any fanfare, uncovered the truth of what happened to the Tuam babies, the unmarked graves, the hidden past and the institutional silence. What she revealed was not just a local scandal; it was a national reckoning. However, to this day, we have not fully responded to that reckoning. We have not given those children or their mothers the justice they deserve.

Now, once again, with this limited commission we are drawing artificial boundaries around suffering. We are saying to survivors of forced adoption, to mothers who still do not know where their babies are buried and to families excluded from redress schemes because of arbitrary timelines that their pain is not enough. Let us remember that just last week the Supports for Survivors of Residential Institutional Abuse Bill passed by the Government excluded many women and children who suffered in the so-called mother and baby homes. This exclusion was not just a technicality. It was the arbitrary shutting out of anyone who had not lived in one of these homes for more than six months. That has caused real harm and pain to the people who were excluded.

If we are serious about truth, justice and reconciliation, we cannot keep siloing suffering. We cannot keep revisiting our past piecemeal and asking survivors to relive their trauma just to be heard. The commission must be all-encompassing once and for all. It must include sexual, physical and emotional abuse, forced family separation and the system of institutional control that allowed it all to happen, because the truth does not come in parts and neither should justice.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister.

I welcome the inquiry and wish the judge well. I hope the process will contribute to the processing of pain from past injustices by survivors and to their getting the justice they deserve.

I am glad this commission has a broad remit to include all schools. I understand the scoping inquiry grew out of the brave testimony by the Ryan brothers and so on, but it was harmful that the State and original scoping inquiry confined itself to religious-run schools. We have to move beyond the black-and-white narrative sometimes preferred by politicians. There could be a public discussion of this. Out in society there is a more textured and complex narrative, where for example there are many people of faith who want to see a full measure of justice, compensation and redress, where appropriate, where there was abuse or a failure to deal with it and so on, but at the same time reject any demonisation of religious-run education as a category in itself. That problem was contributed to by the State's inappropriate choice of focusing exclusively on religious schools. It contributed to an already unhealthy demonisation of religious-run education, coming sometimes from anti-Catholic and other motives.

Saying all that, our first priority must be those who were abused and their entitlement to tell their stories, be heard, be believed and get justice. Much is to be expected from religious-run schools, and they should certainly be leading the way in compensation. I understand many have preceded the State in their efforts to do the work of redress. It is something that Government figures do not often acknowledge or acknowledge at all.

There may well be parts of this story that show there were unhealthy aspects of a religious culture of authority or decision-making in boarding schools. Time will tell if that were the case. However, even if it were part of the story, it is never the whole story. We have heard eloquent commentary from others here that this is a problem that has to do with all of society. It is a problem to do with wherever authority is exercised by some people over others. Therefore, I hope we can find a way to do justice without demonisation. It should be possible, while condemning everything that was wrong and demanding justice, never to forget to mention the good, untiring, selfless contributions made by many religious congregations and individuals who were exemplary. That should never be forgotten or left out.

The State could too easily in this set itself up as the adversary of religious orders and trusts in education. I should declare an interest here. I sat on the board of one of those trusts for almost a decade in the past and I know the good work they have done. People often describe this situation as one where religious orders pushed their resources into trusts so they could somehow escape accountability for wrongs. They put resources into these trusts because of the decline in vocations. They want to continue to provide education, which they have done for so long to the benefit of the State and from which countless people have benefited and which many people still want. This is part of the complexity everyone must face up to.

It is easy for politicians to spend taxpayers' money, set themselves up in judgment and say they are going to go after religious orders, but the law must be followed. People are entitled to access the courts and to their constitutional rights. There should be an acknowledgement, as I said, of where the religious who have an obligation to redress wrong are already doing it. They will be looking carefully to see whether there is a trustworthy dialogue partner in the State or is it just opportunistic politicians who want to get a cheap grace by being seen to be the loudest in their condemnation of others, which is always an easy task.

All that complexity is in there as we seek to put the rights of victims of past abuses at the very top and to tell the truth in a wholesome, holistic and comprehensive way in our society. We must draw a distinction between situations where past injustices occurred and have not been accounted for and situations which for example may have occurred in mother and baby homes where a number of reports have not found evidence or much evidence of abuse and wrongdoing.Agents of the State have said they want to extract millions of euro from the Legion of Mary, which was exemplary in trying to keep mothers and babies in the past. That is the kind of thing that causes many people, including many people of faith, to distrust politicians and the State and to say they are not being fully honest brokers in the way they are dealing with this problem. While we all must unite in getting justice, including justice from religious orders where they failed in their responsibilities, let there not be opportunism here. Let there not be a seizing on the latest popular political agenda at the expense of the truth and at the expense of a full measure of justice to all.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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I thank the Minister for coming in today to discuss this important issue. I welcome that we are going to have a commission of investigation into sexual abuse in schools over several decades. I read the draft terms of reference for the commission of investigation last night and I am concerned about some of the wording and provisions in it. In recent weeks we have had legislation from Senator Eileen Flynn about the importance of language when talking about child abuse. People from across the political spectrum supported that legislation. These terms of reference provide a very strange definition of child abuse which is sanitised and shows a disregard for the victim. It is not appropriate to describe the sexual abuse of a child as an interaction for sexual gratification. That definition needs to change because it is disgusting.

The other problem I have with the terms is that they permit the commission to come back to the Government to change the terms to allow for a time extension. It is so predictable that this will happen for sure. The final report will be delayed for years. Then we will have a long-drawn-out discussion about redress and most of these survivors will be deceased by the time any redress is available.

In other countries, it is normal practice that when commissions of inquiry uncover criminal activity, they are mandated to report that to the police. These terms of reference provide no such mandate and go so far as to prohibit the commission from making statements of fact about organisations or individuals. For example, the Government's terms mean that the commission, after the investigation is over, cannot come out and say that children were failed by the Department of education. If this is the case, why bother with the commission at all? We need to do right by survivors here today. The Government needs to listen to them and to Opposition parties before it fully nails down the terms of reference.

Our first priority must be to those who were abused. I ask the Minister to inform the House today if any consultation with survivors of sexual abuse in schools was done before producing these terms of reference. Aontú is cautious of this proposal and certainly the terms need changes, amendments and corrections before we commit our full support. We need to be absolutely confident that the terms allow for justice to be achieved. At the moment I do not have that confidence.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank colleagues for their contributions and constructive input. I think we are all of the same view here. We all want to ensure the commission is set up as quickly as possible. We all want to ensure that survivors get the answers they so rightly deserve. We all want to ensure this happens as quickly as possible and in a way that is survivor centred and trauma informed. That is at the heart of everything we do. It is an issue of profound societal importance. It touches almost every family and every one of us here through an individual we know, because of our own experience or through a relative in the past. Whether we have children, grandchildren, nieces or nephews attending school or about to attend school, this is something that touches every family and every community the length and breadth of the country. Therefore, it deserves the kind of response we are providing here with the commission of investigation and then the further work with redress.

The sexual abuse of a child the most egregious breach of trust. Senator Ruane spoke about finding the words. Yesterday in the Dáil, I struggled to find the words to explain how I feel and how many of us feel about this crime. It is the most egregious breach. It is the most despicable and sinister act that anybody can commit against a child. For it to happen in a setting where a child should be safe and secure, and for it to be perpetrated by an individual in a position of power who should be caring for them and nurturing them, makes it all the more sinister. That is why it is so important that we look at our response to understand exactly what happened and why it happened. Importantly, we need to do everything we can to ensure it can never happen again. I believe that significant progress has been made in that regard and that schools are completely different places from what they were only a few years ago. There is always room to improve and always more that can be done. I am absolutely committed to that in my role as Minister for education.

The commission will investigate and report on the handling of concerns of historical child sexual abuse for the very clear reason we are not seeking to establish whether child sexual abuse occurred in school; we know what happened. There are people who have been convicted and others who should be convicted, but many have passed away. We now need to know why it happened for so long. What did people do? What did they not do? How did people actually support others to continue this abuse? That does not just include those who are teachers in the schools, but also those who came to the schools who committed abuse and those who turned a blind eye in the various institutions when this happened.

As Senator Scahill said in his opening remarks, we all know wonderful people and teachers in religious orders, in congregations and in schools. Some of them are fantastic people. This is not in any way an attempt to tarnish everybody with the same brush because there are many people who are appalled at what happened and want to see those who are responsible held accountable. This is not anti-Catholic, anti-Protestant or anti any other religious ethos. It is anti child abuse. It is about making sure we get to the answers that survivors deserve to get to.

Colleagues have asked why physical abuse is not specifically mentioned and why it is not part of this. The initial scoping inquiry was very much focused on sexual abuse in our schools. It is a challenge for survivors in particular. That is not to say this is for survivors or because of them, but if we are to get answers for survivors, those who are victims of sexual abuse, where it always has been and will always be a crime, we need to do so in a manner that responds effectively. If we were to expand beyond that to physical abuse, given that we have had changes in law where corporal punishment was allowed in the past, I believe this inquiry would go on for decades. It is not a reason not to do it, but our scope here is very much focused on child sexual abuse in our schools and how we get answers for survivors as quickly as possible. That is not in any way to diminish the fact that some people were violently abused and assaulted in schools, many of whom then also faced sexual abuse. I do not want to diminish in any way what happened there, but the focus must be on sexual abuse in schools.

Many of the schools were special schools and many of those children were unable even to communicate what happened to them. It is important that this commission is accessible to everybody. Senator Ruane mentioned the calls by Inclusion Ireland to ensure it is inclusive. Obviously, we went through the terms of reference very clearly with the Attorney General to make sure it is accessible to everybody.

The commission will strive to be as survivor centred as possible, consistent with fair procedures, and will promote clear communication and transparency to allow survivors to make informed choices as to whether to engage with the commission. It will support survivors at key stages of the process, including emotional and psychological support. It will support those with additional needs to facilitate an accessible and inclusive process that is trauma informed at every step of the way and it will take practical steps to mitigate the risk of retraumatisation.

Before any survey is even sent out, the first step will be to try to understand how many people may come forward. The commission will engage with survivors. I am sure it will also be engaging with Inclusion Ireland to ensure that in establishing the survey and in setting out how the victim survivor programme will work and how we engage with survivors throughout, all of these concerns are taken into consideration. This is very clearly underpinned by the terms of reference. I am very clear and having spoken to the chair on a number of occasions he is very clear that this must be accessible to everybody, including those who are in prisons and those who are not perhaps able to communicate by sitting in front of a person so to speak. They need to have a way to be able to engage in this process as well.Regarding the survivor-centred and trauma-informed approach, I take the point Senator Boyhan raised that those supports need to be available now. We have worked very closely as a Department with One in Four as an organisation. It is very much engaged in the development of this process and making sure it can also provide those supports. We know from the publishing of the scoping enquiry last year that the number of people who came forward increased and the number of people who came forward to the gardaí increased. Any time there is a discussion or announcement of this kind, it raises something in people and, thankfully, many more are able to come forward. We need to ensure the supports are also there for them.

Memorialisation was touched on. It was clear from the scoping enquiry that there is no one particular view on how we deal with this important aspect of everything we are discussing here today. The commission will hopefully help us to inform what this will look like.

It is really important that we get redress right. It is important where there is redress that those who are responsible - not just religious orders, but institutions as well - are held accountable, which also means financially. There is more work to be done to understand what is available within the institutions and whether that is financial assets or other types of assets. It is important to acknowledge that some institutions and orders have come forward and we need to ensure everybody plays their part and engages here. We will engage in good faith, in good spirit and in a way that is appropriate with the orders and religious associations. It is important everybody plays their part. I have to be clear on that.

With regard to some of the other questions and issues raised, the gardaí will engage with the commission in the way it has previously throughout the scoping enquiry. In my previous role I was very aware when the scoping enquiry was published last September that there was an increase in the number of people who went to the gardaí. The work of the commission does not in any way interrupt or detract from the gardaí still having a clear role to ensure those who are responsible are held accountable. It will work with the commission in doing so and will ensure that happens.

Regarding interaction and the terms of reference Senator O'Reilly mentioned at the outset, we had looked at making the interpretation more detailed in setting out what child sexual abuse is, but it was very clearly set out, as it currently is now, through engagement with the Attorney General to ensure every child is included here. We are ensuring that every kind of interaction involving the sexual abuse of a child - regardless of whether it was a member of a religious order, a teacher, a lay person or someone who came to the school once a week, and regardless of whether it was sexual interaction, rape or a photograph being taken, because we know something like that was happening as well, with photographs being taken and passed around - is included in it and not excluded. The language is very carefully worded to ensure every child who was subjected to any type of interaction for sexual gratification by any person in the school - regardless of who they were or how often they were there - can be included in this. It is important for people to understand that is why those terms of reference have been set out in that way.

Finally, I will finish as I started by acknowledging all survivors. Many people have touched on this. We talk about those who have come forward. I acknowledge Mark and David and so many others in the past and recent past. I also acknowledge those who cannot come forward for whatever reason, who cannot speak and who may never come forward to this commission, even if it is anonymous. I acknowledge them and their unbelievable bravery. As a Government, we are doing this, and everything we do, for each and every one of them. Certainly, for my own part as Minister, they will be front and centre in this process at every step of the way.