Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I move:

"That Seanad Éireann -
- notes the publication in March 2013 of the Report on Penal Reform by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality;
- notes further the publication by the Minister for Justice and Equality in September 2014 of the Strategic Review of Penal Policy; and
- calls on the Minister for Justice and Equality to outline her proposals for reform of penal policy in the context of the recommendations in the two reports."

The final report of the review process was published in September by the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald. There is a great deal of commonality between the two reports.

The strategic review report contains many progressive recommendations, notably recommendation 32 which states that imprisonment should be a sentence of last resort and that this principle should be enshrined in statute. It is also stated that reduction in the over-reliance on prison is a key goal and should be a key goal of any penal policy. Other key recommendations in the strategic review report include greater use of structured temporary release, the introduction of enhanced remission of up to one third, development of the community return programme, establishment of the parole board on a statutory basis and extension of the restorative justice programme, an issue particularly close to the heart of Senator Conway, my colleague on the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality.

There is much commonality between the two reports and if implemented, the recommendations in both would make for a much more progressive penal system which works more effectively to reduce re-offending and encourage reintegration of offenders. The key concern of groups like the Irish Penal Reform Trust and others is about the implementation of the recommendations in both reports. At a recent Association for Criminal Justice Research and Development conference in Wheatfield Prison, jointly run with the Department of Justice and Equality, I asked this question about implementation. It is vital that we see a timetable established as well as a timeline of action on each of the recommendations, in particular in the strategic review report, with key individual tasks identified. We also need to see a public commitment to establish immediately the consultative council which is recommended in the strategic review report as a key mechanism to ensure that actions arising from the report will be implemented.

There are other matters which need to be addressed and I hope they will be addressed in the course of this debate, for example, the research capacity of the Department of Justice and Equality and issues around data collection which has been a real problem for anyone who has worked in criminal justice and penal reform. There are other issues around the needs of young children and families whose mothers or fathers are in prison and whose needs must be accommodated in the prison system. I very much look forward to hearing the comments of colleagues and to responding to the debate.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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I second the motion and thank my colleague, Senator Bacik, for bringing this matter before us. I thank the Irish Penal Reform Trust for its briefing to us. It has welcomed this motion which calls on the Minister for Justice and Equality to outline her proposals for reform of penal policy in the context of the recommendations of the report on penal reform by the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality - Senator Bacik was very active in regard to that report - and the strategic review of penal policy report. I look forward to hearing the Minister of State's reflections on both of those reports.

I refer to some of the statistics Senator Bacik outlined. It was striking that on 3 November 2014, there were 3,760 prisoners in custody in this country, but one of the most striking statistics from my perspective was that the number of female committals had risen from 1,459 in 2009 to 2,326 in 2013, of which 1,894, almost 84%, were for non-payment of court ordered fines. That is a very important point we should keep at the forefront of this debate because there is no doubt in my mind, having dealt with the issue over a number of years in other quasi-judicial areas, that prison sentences for non-payment of fines smacks of the 19th century Dickensian style of approach and is wholly inappropriate in the 21st century.

In regard to penal reform generally, there is no doubt we need a coherent penal policy. There is a great benefit to be obtained from focusing on the root of the problem rather than just treating its symptoms and there is a benefit to the rule of law and society in general by providing certainty in regard to penal policy. It has always been my view, as someone who comes from a social policy background, that when we talk about penal policy, we underestimate the importance of background, in particular economic background and economic deprivation. I think it is acknowledged by all the reports on the issue that it is hopelessly inadequate to treat economic deprivation with prison sentences.

I think it was noted in the strategic review of penal policy that our current system was put together without any guiding principles or ends in mind and that, as far as penal policy is concerned, we have tended to react to events as they have occurred. We saw an increase in punitive sentences following the rise of gangland crime in the 1980s and 1990s, in particular following the murder of Veronica Guerin and the increase in drug use in Ireland. As someone who worked very much at the forefront of housing in Dublin, in particular during the 1980s, and who saw very much at first-hand the rise of drug crime in Dublin, there is no doubt in my mind that the rise in drug crime in Dublin was linked specifically to economic deprivation. There is no getting away from the link between penal policy and economic deprivation.

Imprisonment does not have an effect in reducing recidivism and, as has been pointed out, the evidence is there from other countries, such as Scotland, Australia, Canada and the US. If anything, the evidence shows the opposite. Putting people in prison increases their likelihood of re-offending. That is particularly true in the context of some of the communities that have been riddled by drugs and affected by recession in our society.

We need to avoid thinking of prison as a solution and focus on longer-term mechanisms for the reduction of crime. That is incredibly important in helping society as a whole as well as the offenders. I am conscious we are reviewing the whole process of the partnerships. As we know, many of the partnerships are based in areas where there is very significant deprivation. I am thinking of the northside partnership, the Ballymun partnership and the southside partnership, which are all based in areas where the issues of economic deprivation and social inclusion are very important. I take this opportunity to say to the Minister of State that we need to be very careful when we attempt to dismantle some of the initiatives put in place to try to deal with some of these very fundamental issues around economic deprivation and social inclusion.

When we send someone to prison, we do not ask often enough about his or her background. The reality is that many of those we find in our prisons left school at 16 years of age or younger. They have trouble reading and writing and they are more likely to be on drugs, to be homeless, to have a history of being in care and to have been impoverished. We must reduce the factors that lead to imprisonment rather than simply looking at imprisonment as an end in itself.

The Irish Penal Reform Trust has been very active on the issue of prisoners leaving prison and ensuring that when they leave prison, they do not end up in a situation of homelessness which we know leads to the revolving door syndrome of people re-entering a prison environment.

I echo what my colleague, Senator Bacik, said. However, I really believe we do not place enough emphasis on people who have a history of care and of homelessness. We know that two thirds of children who leave the care of the State experience homelessness and that there is a link between that and experience of prison. This is something we must deal with and resolve. Our emphasis has been too much on penal policy and imprisonment as a solution and not enough time has been spent looking at the causes of crime.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Dara Murphy. As a fellow Corkman, I wish him every success and as much happiness he can glean out of his new brief.

Dara Murphy (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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A lengthy term in office.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, indeed. None of us likes sudden elections.

I was a bit worried this morning when the vote went against the Government or part of it.
Leaving that aside, I wish to say my party, Fianna Fáil, fully supports the motion. I compliment Senator Bacik on her work on the justice committee and acknowledge that she has done a lot of work on this report. Sometimes the Senators and Deputies who do a lot of the background work for committees are never credited for their time and effort.
I am also glad to hear the amendment suggested by Sinn Féin is being agreed to. Therefore, the Minister of State will have a fairly peaceful evening here and I am sure he is glad of that.
It is important we do everything possible to support the Government in overhauling a very expensive, ineffective and outdated penal system which reflects the late 1960s and 1970s rather than a modern Ireland or what we should espouse to. The system struggles to cope with the thousands of summonses and bench warrants which remain outstanding, Garda numbers are down by over 1,600, and over 16% of our prison population are on temporary release at any given time due to capacity issues. Crime, particularly in Dublin, has become a real concern and has made international headlines. I also acknowledge the tremendous work that has been done in the city of Limerick in outlawing certain criminal gangs and restoring relative peace to its streets.
A report conducted by the Irish Prison Service and the Central Statistics Office in 2013 showed that criminals in Ireland have a recidivism rate of 62.3% within three years. That is an alarming and frightening statistic. Another finding was that over 80% of those who re-offended did so within 12 months of release. Not only is our justice system ineffective in reforming offenders' actions, it is also very costly because in 2012 the average cost of imprisonment per prisoner was €65,404. Therefore, new ideas and a new approach are needed in order to reform the penal system. I reiterate that the proposals put forward in the recent report by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, of which I am a member, should be implemented and a plan should be set out to do so.
It is frightening to look at the statistic for prisoners on temporary release since September 2014 which states: Castlerea Prison - 33; Cork Prison - 140, which is in the Minister of State's constituency; Mountjoy Prison - 138 in the male prison and 46 in the female prison; Shelton Abbey Prison - 5; Wheatfield Prison - 54; and the total figure is 642 prisoners. The number of prisoners on temporary release for serious offences are as follows: homicide - 3; sexual offences - 1; and attempts-threat to murder - 59. These are very serious issues.
It is important to note that the penal system was inherited by the Government. The problem of sending people to prison for a week or 14 days for minor issues has existed for as long as I have been alive, and longer. I shall now relate a simple story about a man who lived in a very remote part of Munster and I will not say anything further so as not to identify him. He drove his car to Navan or a town like it in order to buy a part for his tractor but on arrival he discovered the parking meter beside where he parked had a sign which read "out of order". He got the part and went somewhere for a cup of tea which only took him three quarters of an hour. Lo and behold he got a summons for parking illegally which surprised him. He rang the local authority and did everything possible to sort the matter out. Eventually the case went to court, he has no defence counsel to represent him and at huge cost was brought from a remote part of Munster, probably a five hour drive to Dublin, and was accompanied by a local garda just to spend three hours in Mountjoy Prison.
He said in court that he was an honourable man who was 67 years of age at the time and had never been in court in his life. His wife rang me that morning balling her head off and said to me "Poor old John has been taken away, isn't it an awful disgrace." A great damage was done to the family. The same situation happens on a regular basis. People are being brought from either my home town of Bantry or whatever to Cork Prison. They are then released and have to be brought back which involves Garda time. All involved have to be transported. The case I mentioned is not a one-off incident and I felt for the family. Thankfully, the local garda waited until the man was released and accompanied him home on the train. That act of kindness gave the 67-year old man peace of mind but many gardaí would not bother turning around. We must try to eliminate such court cases.
The report contains a proposal that sentences of less than six months be commuted. I concur because we should not send people to prison for perhaps owing their credit union a few hundred euro or whatever and being unable to pay. We must rethink the strategy as it is absolutely ridiculous.
The re-offending rate of two thirds is so worrying that it is serious. I am very interested in the Finnish model of open prisons outlined by Senator Bacik and was very pleased to visit Finland to see an example. It was located on an island and some of its inhabitants went back to college. In one instance a prisoner who committed a serious crime was allowed travel hundreds of miles to bury someone who belonged to him. He was tagged and thus was able to return. That model of open prison is appealing. Inhabitants were treated very well and given a certain amount of freedom thus trust could be built up. If there is no trust then the situation is very serious.
Overcrowding in Irish prisons is appalling. I agree with Senator Bacik's comments that, by and large, we would love to see fewer prisons and prison spaces. Changing the system would be like turning around the Titanic. The system must be changed gradually. We must adopt a new view of what we want prison life to be like for the next 50 years. We must try to eliminate and get away from the past on which, regrettably, prison systems are based.
The committee's report is good. The principle thing to convey to the Government and to the senior Minister is to act on this report sooner rather than later.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I call Senator Martin Conway and he has six minutes.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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Go raibh maith agat. I welcome my good friend and Minister of State to the House. It is great to have him here and he is very welcome. I hope this is the first of many visits by him to Seanad Éireann. He will find that the level of debate here is probably a little more collegial than in the other House. Although the events of this morning would make him think otherwise.

As always, Senator Bacik has come forward with a very thought-provoking Private Members' motion which has resulted from enormous dedication by her to the issue in the first place. Before I ever got to know her I was aware of her work on penal reform. Of course, that is only one of many strings to her bow but, in particular, penal reform is an issue on which she has been very strong.

I wish to put on the record of this House my disappointment that only two people from the entire Houses of the Oireachtas attended today's launch of Ruhama's report into the abuse of women involved in prostitution in this country. Irish Water is a big issue and other issues are big issues. What about the human rights of vulnerable citizens in this country and vulnerable people who visit this country but end up doing so against their will because they are trafficked here? In my view their human rights are a much more fundamental issue than the human right to water. We are missing a briefing in the AV room on Irish Water but we are probably better off being here discussing Senator Bacik's Private Members' motion than listening to Irish Water.

The work done by the Oireachtas justice committee's sub-committee on penal reform is provocative, groundbreaking and will make a difference if implemented. It is timely for us to discuss its recommendations and the whole issue of penal reform in this House. The sub-committee's work was detailed and forensic. The various stakeholders were brought into the committee where they made their submissions. There was a very healthy and useful exchange of views and the report is groundbreaking.

During my period on the committee we have visited Mountjoy Prison and Cork Prison. Some of the developments are very welcome, particularly the elimination and progressive elimination of slopping out. The fact that a new prison will be built in Cork is very welcome. The living standards in the prison were and will remain inhumane until such time as the new prison is up and running.

We are a First World country. We have responsibilities, in terms of human rights, in how we treat prisoners. Rehabilitation, education and preparing prisoners for release is critical in the area of penal reform. If somebody is given a five-year sentence for a crime, it is no use unless he or she is rehabilitated going out into the world. Within the prison system, we need to take a serious look at education, counselling and therapy, in particular, in the area of restorative justice.

When I tabled a motion here on restorative justice two years ago, I was amazed at the number of Members who approached me beforehand to know what was restorative justice. I must admit I only became aware of the principle of restorative justice a number of months prior to that. Restorative justice is working well in various parts of the world. Interestingly, it is working well in Northern Ireland.

More interestingly, it is working well where it is being piloted in this country. It is being piloted in north Tipperary as a result of the ground-breaking views of Judge Reilly, who believed in the principle and practice of restorative justice. It is also working well in south Dublin. Where those who have been involved in crime enter programmes of restorative justice with their victims, it has proven to be an extremely positive experience with re-offending rates dropping by 60% to 70%. Where, for instance, a perpetrator hears the testimony from the victim of the effect of snatching a handbag, which, to the perpetrator, might be a laugh and might not be considered a serious crime, but which can have a devastating effect and put the fear of God into a person, perhaps a lady going about her daily work, and the perpetrator realises this through proper restorative justice programmes, it is through an inherent human nature in the vast majority that such crime can be reduced.

The motion that was passed unanimously in this House called on the Government to extend the pilot programme on a national basis. That is something that I would like to see happen in the lifetime of this Government. It probably will not. Even if there was a commitment that it would happen incrementally, perhaps province by province over a number of a years, it would be a welcome development.

I welcome the fact that the Minister committed to establishing a community court in Dublin city. It, too, is a motion that I, in my capacity as Fine Gael spokesperson on justice and equality, tabled here. It also received unanimous support in this House because it makes absolute sense. Community courts have worked incredibly well in New York city. They have dramatically reduced crime levels. A community court is where one brings the various stakeholders, whether it is probation, addiction counselling or social work, together under one roof and proper early interventions can be made. Cases can be adjourned until such time as these interventions have taken place and effective reporting is undertaken. The Minister is brave to have committed to setting that up, between Store Street and Pearse Street Garda stations. It will be interesting to see the results of the pilot community court in Dublin. If it works, it could be extended to some of the other cities, such as Galway, Cork and Limerick.

We need to look at alternative ways of dealing with matters of justice because prison is rarely the answer. If we can identify alternative ways, not only does it reduce the numbers going to prison but it is much more cost effective. Furthermore, it protects the sense of purpose and well-being of the offenders, many of whose offences are minor and many of whom, if they are got in time, will not re-offend.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I also welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Dara Murphy, to the Chamber and thank him for the calming effect he has obviously had on this House. It allows us to have a constructive important debate on penal reform.

I commend and thank Senator Bacik and her colleagues in Labour on giving us this opportunity to have a debate on penal reform. I also join in the welcome by Senator Bacik to the visitors in the Gallery. I thank them for all the work that they do. It is greatly appreciated by us.

I understand the Minister of State stood in at short notice. If he is not in a position to answer, I would appreciate a follow-up in writing to them because some are quite specific.

I commend the hard work, dedication and expertise that went into both projects and I welcome the positive contribution they make to achieving a fairer and more robust penal policy in Ireland. The strategic review of penal policy states "the overarching purpose of criminal and penal policy should be to make Ireland a safer and fairer place". They go on to state that "any penal system which does not aspire to a reduction in offending behaviour as a key goal is failing in its purpose". Everybody can agree with that.

However, we only need to look at the higher recidivism rates, recorded by the CSO, by those who received a custodial sentence versus those who received a community based sanction, and the fact that prison fundamentally harms and damages already harmed and damaged individuals, to know that prison should only be used as a measure of last resort. Rhetoric suggests that we have accepted this principle, but our rates of committal to prison under sentence and the increasing number of committals for periods of less than three and six months means that Ireland has one of the most punitive criminal justice systems in Europe. There is far greater scope, both in policy and legislation, to extend the principle of detention as a last resort, an already well established principle in international and domestic law for children, to the adult justice system.

Speaking of children in detention, although not named in the recommendations of either report, I understand it was a feature of the discussions for both and I raise the following matter. The number of children detained on remand in Ireland, particularly the significant percentage of whom who do not go on to receive a custodial sentence, raises serious concerns about Ireland's compliance with the detention as a last resource principle for children which also incorporates a presumption against detention for children accused of criminal offences, that is, remand. I ask the Minister's opinion on the practice in the Children Court of remanding children for assessment despite section 88(13) of the Children Act clearly stipulating that the court should not remand a child in detention solely on the basis of care or protection concerns. Second, I ask how the absence of a formal system of bail supports and services in Ireland impacts on a child's ability to meet his or her bail conditions, and the consequence risk of he or she receiving a custodial remand for failure to comply.

Like practically everyone in this House, I warmly welcome the concerted efforts of the Government to end the practice of detaining children in prison which is in breach of international human rights standards. However, according to the daily prison numbers, on Friday, 31 October, there were eight 17 year old boys detained on remand in St. Patrick's Institution and I must ask when this practice will finally end. In the interests of transparency and to better monitor progress, will the Minister direct the Irish Prison Service to identify the number of 17 year old boys detained in Wheatfield Prison in its daily prisoner population breakdown so that we all are clear and, hopefully, can celebrate soon when children are no longer in prison?

Senator Bacik raised the issue of those aged 18 to 21 years and I ask a specific question of the Minister. Considering the extensive evidence supporting the need for differential treatment of those aged 18 to 21 years in the criminal justice system, does the Minister intend to act on recommendation 4 of the strategic review group report and extend programmes, including, for example, the youth diversion programme, to this age cohort? This would be a welcome measure.

Finally, I was interested by a comment made recently by Fr. Peter McVerry at the 12th Annual Human Rights Conference, at which the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, also spoke. He queried why, 37 years after the introduction of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1977 which allows the courts to detain a person convicted of possession in a designated custodial treatment centre as an alternative to a custodial sentence, no such custodial treatment centre exists.

Some 37 years later, we do not have the centre. Fr. Peter McVerry was commenting on the revolving door reality of prison with drug users going in and coming out of prison because of their addiction. They continue to use drugs while incarcerated and immediately seek out drugs on their release. He spoke of how many on remand were reluctant to take up bail until a scantily available place has been secured in a treatment facility. The drug epidemic in Ireland continues to blight lives, families and communities and fuels criminality. We should consider the option of an alternative to prison and put it in place.

I thank Senator Bacik and her colleagues in the Labour Party for affording us this opportunity to debate it and I hope this will lead to the continuation of discussions on penal reform. I hope that we will see that the reports will progress and come to life.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I now call Senator Susan O'Keeffe, who has six minutes.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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I thank my colleagues Senators Bacik and Hayden for proposing and seconding this motion. It is yet again an opportunity for the Seanad to show that penal reform is not a political football but that we have an interest in improving the system at heart. There has been no disagreement, or at least there will be no disagreement on the motion today.

The difficulty facing any Minister, and the Minister of State, Deputy Dara Murphy is very welcome, in trying to set up or improve the penal system is whether one views the purpose of the process as a method of punishing the offender or by reforming it, encourage the offender to lead a better life. When one takes the approach of trying to reform the system, one encounters the "flog them and hang them" brigade. Some people believe those who go to prison should be in prison and they need to be punished for what they have done. The heart of the debate about the penal system is what underpins it. By and large the people have never held extreme viewpoints on what should be done with offenders. We have been fuddling along in the middle. As time passes it appears that we are more in favour of punishment than in reforming the system. I would not like to see that continue.

No system can be repaired overnight. People are still slopping out in the 21st century and I would like to believe that could be repaired overnight. The greater issues about how to improve the system for prisoners has to be done with thought and care. Much of the work has been done and I would hate to see us embarking on another phase of research, when an enormous body of research that has been conducted worldwide and in Ireland is available on approaches we might consider.

The issue is whether the Government agrees the purpose of the penal system is to punish or to reform offenders. Everything will be built on that premise. As long as we are torn in the middle of that debate we will never be able to make progress. Sometimes the Government finds it hard to say that it wants to improve standards so that when people come out of prison they will have a better life, and are members of society. It is acknowledged that they have offended and have done wrong things, and seriously wrong things, but that we accept that society is comprised of people who make mistakes as well as those who never end up behind bars.

I have been in several prisons and in several institutions for young offenders, both here and in the UK. What I will never forget is the terrible sense of oppression and of being closed in, as well as the extraordinary smell that comes from being inside a building where one really cannot get out. In a way, those who have never been in prison and talk about punishing people and sending them to prison do not understand at all what the removal of freedom means to people. Ultimately the punishment is that one is in a place where one cannot leave of one's own free will. Surely the punishment starts there and we should be looking to create systems to restore some humanity and look for a more humane system. We should look for the implementation of many of the recommendations in these reports.

This is not an easy task and the subject will not be solved overnight, albeit some of the specifically outrageous things that go on can be dealt with quickly. Senator O'Donovan's example of a man driving for a tractor part and ending up in prison is ridiculous and makes a nonsense of the whole system. It is a tiny part of a wider picture. I for one take the view that we are all human. We all make mistakes, some of them very serious but as a mark of the maturity of our society we want to show we understand that people who go to prison are nonetheless still people and need to be treated with dignity and respect. It is up to us as public representatives and as a government to try to find a way to reflect that in our penal system.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I now call on Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh to move his amendment and he has six minutes.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I move amendment No. 1:

“To add after the words ‘two reports’ the following paragraph:
‘; and
- calls on the Minister for Justice and Equality to implement the five recommendations set out by the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality in its Report on Penal Reform.’.”

These are the experts in the area, not us as politicians and legislators, and we must listen to them and take their counsel on these matters. We were glad to see the report recognised the futility of putting so many people in prison and said the unnecessary use of imprisonment must be severely reduced. The Government has still not fully implemented all aspects of the long-promised legislation whereby people would have to pay their fines instead of going to jail. We have been pushing for this for years now. We are heartened also to see in the report the recommendation that courts will not be able to make attachment orders to social welfare payments. The report also identified the link between crime and the failures of social policy, manifested in addiction and homelessness, something we have been bringing to the Government's attention for as long as we have been represented in these institutions.

However, our one criticism of the report is the failure to allow for a sentencing council. This is something we in Sinn Féin feel very strongly about. We would like to see a sentencing council based on the system in England and Wales, with clear sentencing guidelines given to the judiciary there, as it has engagement with the public about what are appropriate sentences for particular categories of criminal offences. On the basis of what is agreed, guidelines are passed to the judiciary. It is quite a flexible framework and judges still have a degree of discretion according to the circumstances of the individual case, although judges are expected to record the reasons for the decisions regarding the sentencing for an offence. I hope a similar system will be implemented here in Ireland. We are calling on the Minister of State to liaise with the senior Minister in the Department to implement fully the recommendations of the Oireachtas justice committee and to outline her plans for penal reform. We are putting our proposals forward.

I also concur with Senator Hayden on the issue around the realignment process that is happening in the community voluntary sector, particularly around the cohesion that happened with the partnership companies and the move towards the local community development committees, LCDCs, and the issues around social inclusion. We have raised our concerns about the democratic involvement of local communities on the boards of those companies. We still have those concerns. It is not too late for the Minister, Deputy Kelly, to reassess some of the issues around those companies and how they are doing their work.

Le focal scoir, táimid ag cur an leasú chun cinn mar mholadh ar an obair a rinne an comhchoiste. Sílimid go ndearna siad obair den scoth. Tá na moltaí ciallmhar. Tá sé thar am na leasuithe seo a dhéanamh. Aithníonn siad freisin an páirt riachtanach a ghlacann na comhlachtaí agus na daoine atá ag obair ar an talamh go moch agus go mall ach caithfimid freisin é a chur sa gcomhthéacs níos leithne ó thaobh na deacrachtaí sóisialta agus dul i ngleic leo sin chomh maith. Agus le sin, cuirim an leasú chun cinn.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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Go raibh maith agat, a Sheanadóir. Is Senator Reilly seconding the amendment?

Kathryn Reilly (Sinn Fein)
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I second the amendment.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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You do not wish to speak. Therefore, I call Senator Mullins.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I had not planned on speaking either but having sat in and chaired the early part of this debate, I felt it incumbent on me to say a few words and particularly to compliment the Labour Party in bringing forward this motion today and to pay tribute to Senator Bacik and all the members of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality for this fine report. What we all want to see now is action on the very many fine recommendations that have been made in that report.

We all want to see a justice system that protects our citizens and that when citizens break the law and step out of line, we have a system that is appropriate and imposes sanctions that are appropriate and that we have a system that will rehabilitate offenders in an appropriate setting.

Senator O'Donovan highlighted a ludicrous situation which I see happening in my own town as well. People who are committed to prison for fairly menial offences are back in town within a few hours having cost the State an enormous amount of money. In this day and age that is ludicrous and is something we could tackle very easily and very quickly.

I am convinced that a lot of the crime in this country is committed as a result of the abuse of alcohol and drugs. We have to think very much of the abusers of alcohol and drugs. We also have to keep in mind the victims of the crimes committed. The appropriate system for rehabilitating drug abusers is certainly not prison. I agree totally with Senator van Turnhout in that we need to enhance our rehabilitation facilities for both alcohol and drug abusers. In my own town of Ballinasloe, we had a fine alcohol rehabilitation centre some years ago. In its wisdom, the HSE decided to close it. In my view, there are insufficient rehabilitation beds within the system that the HSE runs now. I would like to see, as part of this overall review of the prison facilities, an examination of the whole area of rehabilitation.

I want to compliment the fine work done by many people who work within the youth diversion projects. The youth diversion project in my own town works very effectively. Many young people who have come through that system and who have been helped through the youth diversion project continue to lead meaningful lives, get employment and, in most cases, do not re-offend.

It is true to say - I think Senator Hayden referred to it - that we need to reduce the factors and the economic deprivation which many young people suffer and are causes of people offending. The area of drug addiction would come into that category.

I support the concept of restorative justice. Senator Conway is a very strong advocate of that approach. Judge O'Reilly, who presided in my own area of the country at one time, is a very progressive justice. I hope the pilot project that is being undertaken in Tipperary will be extended to other parts of the country as a matter of urgency.

I understand the Irish Prison Service has set up a group to look at the possibility of having an open prison for women. That is something that should happen. I hope the Minister will strongly support that and that we will see the possibility of an open prison for women in the fairly near future.

I welcome the opportunity today to have this debate. I hope the Minister of State, when he addresses us, will have some very interesting and positive things to say and that the good work of the Oireachtas joint committee and the many actions and many progressive ideas it has come forward with, will be actioned and we will see them implemented in the not too distant future.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the House and say, as my colleague has already indicated, that Fianna Fáil is supporting this Private Members' motion. However, we have severe criticisms of the manner in which the Government has been addressing the various deficiencies in the criminal justice system.

One of the issues that has attracted media attention in recent days is the continuing haemorrhaging of senior police officers at a time when the Garda is under severe scrutiny. A newspaper has suggested today that Assistant Commissioner Tony Quilter, a senior officer of many years' standing, a man of tremendous integrity and great expertise, is indicating that he is taking retirement from the force to take up an alternative police security job. That was essentially the only reference I had to it. I would be grateful if the Minister would address this issue. I understand the process involved in the appointment of a new Commissioner and I have to say the Acting Commissioner is doing an excellent job. She has restored a lot of morale to the Garda force. It is a matter of great concern that people in senior positions are being lost.

It is not just the individuals themselves, but their expertise that is being lost. In his contribution on the Order of Business yesterday, Senator Whelan of the Labour Party group referred to the bail system in this country. In effect, he was talking about the revolving door issue. After the Order of Business I indicated to him that there was a referendum in 1996 that was supposed to end the revolving door system. The Leader, Senator Cummins, referred to it also. It was during the time of the rainbow coalition when the former Deputy, Nora Owen, was Minister for Justice. I remember there was a great deal of controversy surrounding what seemed to be a very flexible system where people were going out on bail and were committing crimes. One has only to look at the papers every day to find the number of people who are recidivists, as they are called, and the percentage is very high at around 63%. It is an issue the Minister of State might like to address. After all, the constitutional referendum was supposed to end the system of revolving door bailing. Is there some deficiency within the criminal justice system that is allowing this to continue?

I understand and appreciate that, constitutionally, judges have the ultimate right to pass sentence. I am very aware of the separation of powers in this country and I do not in any way wish to infringe on the right of the Judiciary to make its decisions in this regard. It is, none the less, a matter of grave public concern. One might refer to the tragic circumstances that resulted in the death of an innocent person on the motorway near Kildare a few weeks ago. There were five robbers in a car that was being pursued by the Garda. Almost all were in their late teens, with the eldest of them 20 or 21, and again it seems the person who was driving the car had numerous previous convictions. I am not sure whether he was out on bail for one of them at the time.

I understand fully and appreciate the difficulties facing justice departments in all jurisdictions. I know the Garda is doing the very best it can in the circumstances. There is ongoing criticism, however, of what seems to have been a drift away from policing on the ground over the past decade or two. I would include previous Administrations in that culture. It was thought that putting gardaí into cars would be more efficient. They were taken off the beat and it was not required that they actually live in the areas they police.

As a child, I remember distinctly, in a small town, Drumshanbo in County Leitrim, we had a sergeant and four gardaí. Two of them religiously patrolled the town of Drumshanbo morning and evening, and when they were not patrolling they would stand in a pivotal place in the town where there were a lot of people and cars travelling by. I am convinced that contributed to the low crime rate in our country during that period. What I am applying to Drumshanbo can equally apply to every other town and village in the country.

I do not know whether it has gone too far to change that, but any Government would be doing a great service to the public if it could roll back the culture of reducing garda numbers, closing rural stations and putting gardaí into cars which operate out of a Garda station 10, 15 or 20 miles away. I do not believe we will ever grapple with the crime issue in this country, which results in an overloading of the jail system, if we do not go back to some form of community policing. Any Government that would go down that road would generate a very positive response from the public. I am not alone in this and I know it is not an original thought, but I believe this report is an opportunity to highlight the issue.

I commend the justice committee on the report it has published. I commend Senator Bacik on highlighting this important issue of crime, which is not discussed often enough in these Houses, even though it is a daily diet in the red tops in particular. Crime stories sometimes engender fear in the public, and while the story itself may be well-founded, the suggestion that there is wholesale crime in certain categories may not be. This suggestion is putting the fear of God into elderly people in particular who are living alone. There is an ongoing responsibility on Government to ensure the priority is the protection of citizens, and anything that goes towards improving a somewhat ramshackle criminal justice and jail system, as outlined in this report, is to be welcomed.

Dara Murphy (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I very much welcome the opportunity to be here for this debate. I am glad that Senator van Turnhout said I had a calming effect on this Chamber. I hope that will remain the case after I complete my speech. After the two amendments we had to earlier debate on legislation, perhaps it will be a case of third time lucky.

On behalf of the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, who cannot be here but has been very engaged with this matter, I thank Senator Bacik and her colleagues. The Minister personally asked me to do that. I welcome the observers and stakeholders and thank them for attending and for their interest and input to date. This motion offers a welcome opportunity to address the very important issue of penal reform, and in particular to discuss the reports of the penal policy review group and the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality chaired by Deputy David Stanton.

As Minister for Justice and Equality, my colleague, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, is committed to a programme of comprehensive reform in the administration of criminal justice in Ireland, including in particular reform in prison and penal policy. She believes this reform will contribute to a safer, more efficient and more equitable criminal justice system in our country.

We welcome the penal policy review group report and thank the chairman, Mr. Michael Whelan, and the members of the group for putting it together. As Members will be aware, the review group was established in September 2012 and tasked with carrying out a strategic review of penal policy, taking into account the relevant work carried out in this jurisdiction and elsewhere. The rights of those convicted of crimes, the perspective of those who are victims of crime and the interests of our society in general were also to be considered. The group was asked to make recommendations on how a principled and sustainable penal system might be further enhanced, taking into account resource implications, constitutional imperatives and international obligations, some of which we discussed earlier. It is clear the group adopted a progressive but pragmatic approach and its recommendations will make a positive contribution to a more progressive penal policy in Ireland. The report sets out a roadmap for the strategic development of penal reform into the future, which will help modernise and shape how we as a society deal with some of the most complex issues involved in criminal justice and penal reform policy.

The Minister for Justice believes our future penal policy must be focused on two key goals: punishment and prevention. The societal need for punishment to be served must be met, but the proven potential to reduce crime through reducing re-offending must also be grasped. The review group provides its own statements on these two goals. First, it states that while imprisonment should be regarded as a sanction of last resort, none the less, in line with the principle of proportionality, there are offences for which imprisonment may be the only appropriate sentence. Second, it states that the overarching purpose of criminal and penal policy should be to make Ireland a safer and fairer place.

It further states that any penal system which does not aspire to a reduction in offending is failing in its purpose.

The review group goes on to identify rehabilitation and reintegration as a core principle and significant factor in reducing crime and considers that such aims are best achieved in a non-custodial environment in so far as is possible. What this also means is that while prisons will remain part of the answer, prison will not be the only answer. The Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, believes strongly that we need to move on from the Victorian penal approach to punishing prisoners with a set prison sentence. Similarly, we need to move away from what has been seen as a revolving door of prisoners going in and out of prison. Revolving door policies do not work and simply locking up offenders does not work either. They do not work for the persons involved or for our society. Let me be clear, the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, is determined that serious offenders and serial offenders must continue to be imprisoned. Public safety is of paramount importance and she is absolute about this. Society expects and demands nothing less. She is also clear in her view that prison is not the only solution when it comes to those convicted of lesser, non-violent offences. Why should we send such persons to prison, at a high cost to the taxpayer as Senator O'Donovan and others mentioned, into a prison environment where despite all the improvements in recent years, for some, their underlying offending behaviour, not to mention any addictions or mental health problems, may be exacerbated rather than eliminated? Alternatively, we can tackle re-offending head-on by imposing a supervised community sanction with appropriate supports which could see punishment being served but which would also lead not only to rehabilitation but to a reduced risk of re-offending.

Recidivism studies by the CSO have shown that offenders who received either a probation order or a community service order in 2007 and 2008 had a re-offending rate of nearly 50% lower than those who had received a custodial sentence - 41% versus 62%. This shows clearly that supervised community sanctions can help to reduce re-offending, thereby also reducing crime.

The review group was also asked to consider the recommendations contained in the March 2013 report of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality to which I will return. The report of the penal policy review group contains 43 recommendations and I will not go through them all now. It proposes the adoption of a penal policy with the dual purposes of punishment and rehabilitation both in the imposition and management of criminal sanctions.

This House will appreciate that while some of the report's recommendations can be implemented in the short to medium term, others will require a more long-term approach. As an initial important step, the Minister for Justice and Equality obtained the agreement of Government in principle yesterday to proceed immediately with the implementation of the following key recommendations. The first is to place the parole board on a statutory basis. The Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, intends to develop and bring forward legislative proposals to Government providing for a statutory parole board, setting out its functions powers and structure, including how it will fit into the overall criminal justice system. The objective will be for a more effective and streamlined parole process which will be of benefit to the prisoner and the community to which he or she may in time return, but with public safety remaining paramount. A second key recommendation by the group stated that the role of the victim in the criminal justice system should be fully acknowledged and the Minister fully agrees with this. She is absolutely committed to strengthening support for the victims of crime and intends to explore the issue of victim representation on the parole board in this context. She intends to strengthen support for the victims of crime by implementing the EU directive on victims' rights in 2015.

In response to the review group's recommendations on mandatory or presumptive sentences, the Minister has asked her officials to prepare options for consideration by her and Government on a reform of sentencing policy, including a review of the threshold at which presumptive minimum sentences in drugs and other offences apply. The recommendations contained in the Law Reform Commission report on mandatory sentences published in June 2013 will also be considered in that context.

The group recommends that when imposing a custodial sentence a court should set out its reasons, preferably in writing. Department of Justice and Equality officials have now been asked to consider, in consultation with the Courts Service, how best this recommendation can be taken forward.

The group also recommends that there should be a consistent and transparent application of provisions, based on fair procedures, permitting offenders to earn remission of up to one third of the sentence imposed if such discretionary remission is to be retained. The Minister for Justice and Equality recently signed new prison rules which provide a much clearer and more comprehensive basis for the current enhanced remission rate of one third of the sentence.

A question was asked about an open prison for female offenders. The group recommends that such a facility be introduced. I can advise the House that the Irish Prison Service has established a sub-group to examine the possible location of a new open centre for women prisoners. Once the sub-group has reported, it is the intention of the Minister to ask the Irish Prison Service to bring forward proposals on developing such an open centre for female offenders.

Senator van Turnhout asked three questions. With respect to the number of children on remand, as she may be aware the facility in Oberstown is due to open later this year. Responsibility for this rests with the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. It is intended that when this facility opens the practice of children being held on remand will come to an end. We hope very much that will be the case. Recommendation 4 of the strategic review proposes, as the Senator suggested, an extension of the youth diversion programme from the age of 18 to 21. However, I will have to revert to the Senator on the specific legal question she asked about formal bail,.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I would appreciate that.

Dara Murphy (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Senator Mullins asked about the misuse and abuse of alcohol. The Minister has recently committed that a review of alcohol and drug prevention and treatment services for offenders be undertaken as quickly as possible.

I wholeheartedly support Senator Mooney's point about the community nature of policing. I had the honour of being the first chairman of a joint policing committee on a pilot scheme under the then Minister for Justice, the late Brian Lenihan, and I came to Dublin. It has proven to be remarkably successful and remains probably one of the most successful new changes to how policing in the country has developed.

On the question of the drain of senior gardaí, it is welcome that we have finally arrived once again at a point where we are retraining new young gardaí. In the spirit of the debate we must accept the catastrophic nature of the recession, and policies that were taken in the past meant that in many areas of Irish life we lost some very good people. As the economy recovers we are once again in a position to replace staff and encourage people to come into not only our police force but to other public services.

On the implementation of recommendations, the report envisages that progress on the implementation of the recommendations be published every six months, and the Minister intends to establish an implementation group with an independent chairperson to oversee implementation of these recommendations and report back on a regular basis. The Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, is considering such an appointment and hopes to make an announcement in the near future. She will also refer the penal policy review group report to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality and Defence, following its consideration by Government at its meeting yesterday. I welcome comments made by Senators on how well the committee operates and functions. It is known throughout the Houses that the committee operates in a very collegiate manner.

I note the amendment to the motion seeking the implementation of the five recommendations of the joint committee's report. The report is a very valuable contribution to the debate on penal reform, and contains analysis and recommendations which considerably advance the debate on how best to protect society through effective offender management. Senator Bacik will deal with the amendment. It is a tribute to the joint committee that, under the capable chairmanship of Deputy David Stanton, there was cross-party support for a range of measures designed to further the development of an effective and progressive penal system.

In many ways the report of the joint committee complements the more recent report of the strategic review of penal policy, which took the joint committee's report into account. Naturally, the two reports have some variations in approach, and these can be examined as part of the ongoing process of implementation. These differences in detail underscore the variety of ways in which the agreed objective of penal reform can be advanced, and the Minister for Justice and Equality looks forward to working with Senators, members of the joint committee and others in achieving this goal.

On the recommendation to reduce prison numbers, the joint committee was right to be concerned about what up to then had been the significant increase in the number of prisoners, but thankfully these numbers have since been steadily reducing, and this has provided space, both literally and metaphorically, for reforming measures to be considered and introduced. I add a note of caution on setting a specific target, such as reducing the prison population by one third, as many factors must be taken into account, including the rate of crime and, of course, the independence of courts in making sentencing decisions. Sanctions must be appropriate to each offender, and not be constrained by a policy which simply seeks to reduce prison numbers.

The recommendation that all sentences of imprisonment for less than six months for non-violent offences should be commuted and replaced with community service orders draws on the success of a policy in Finland, which the committee visited, where a court may commute a sentence of less than eight months imprisonment to community work. In some ways our law, as set out in the Criminal Justice (Community Service) (Amendment) Act 2011, now goes further in that it not only makes community service available as an alternative, but positively obliges consideration of community service in any case where there might be a sentence of up to one year, rather than just six months. This was an important development in sentencing policy and the Minister is certainly open to considering whether any further steps could be taken.

The joint committee also recommended that the rate of standard remission of sentence should be increased from one quarter to one third for all sentences over one month in length, and that enhanced remission of up to one half should be available. This recommendation was considered by the penal policy review group. Underlining how there is room for legitimate variations of view on how to achieve a common goal, some members of the review group favoured the joint committee's recommendation, but overall the review group came down in favour of retention of the current system of remission, which has a standard rate of one quarter.

The joint committee also recommended that a single piece of legislation should provide for various forms of structured release, such as temporary release, including the community return scheme, and the recommended changes to the rates of remission. In principle, the Minister for Justice and Equality will certainly look for any opportunity, on sentencing matters or other criminal justice issues, for legislative consolidation. Whether consolidated or separate, what matters most is the substance of our law on the release of prisoners, and how it can aid rehabilitation, re-integration into the community, and ultimately reduced rates of re-offending. This is why the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, is very pleased with the success of the community return scheme, and great credit is due to the Irish Prison Service and the Probation Service for how it has operated so effectively.

The fifth and final recommendation in the report of the joint committee is to improve prison conditions, especially to deal with overcrowding, and to increase the proportion of open prison places. This recommendation is very much welcome, and I know the entire House will recognise and support the significant improvements in prison conditions we now see. Mountjoy Prison has been renovated and transformed, almost beyond recognition. A new Cork prison is being built in my constituency. Other significant improvement projects are also under way, including taking steps to provide an open centre for women.

The report of the joint committee, and the subsequent report of the strategic review of penal policy, which had the advantage of being able to consider the recommendations of the joint committee, are very important contributions to the debate on penal reform. They will be an invaluable source of advice to the Government and everyone interested in making progressive and effective changes to penal policy. In some respects the reports reflect entirely legitimate variations in views, but always with the same objective: to make our penal system such that offenders can be dealt with where appropriate with non-custodial sanctions, and that where offenders are sent to prison, when required, they are given every opportunity to rehabilitate and re-integrate safely into society, for the ultimate protection of all.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State for his very comprehensive reply. I thank all of my colleagues who spoke, namely, Senators Hayden, O'Donovan, Conway, van Turnhout, O'Keeffe, Ó Clochartaigh, Mullins and Mooney. They made some very important points during the course of the debate, and in particular I thank Senator Hayden for seconding the motion and referring to issues on overcrowding and conditions in the women's prison and people still being imprisoned for the non-payment of fines. She also spoke about the critical issue of economic deprivation, or poverty, which is the real social and economic context in which we are examining penal reform.

I thank Senator van Turnhout in particular for raising the issue of children in prison. I also thank Senator Conway for his ongoing commitment to increasing the use of restorative justice, and Senators O'Donovan and Mooney for their support for the motion and their supportive comments on the joint committee's report, which had cross-party support and was unanimously adopted.

I thank the Minister of State in particular for setting out very practical ways in which the progressive recommendations in both reports are being advanced. I am very glad to hear that the Minister now has permission and approval from the Government to place the parole board on a statutory basis. This has been a long-standing issue for many of us. It is also very welcome to hear the Minister is in the process of establishing an implementation group in line with the recommendation of the strategic review group report. As I stated in my proposing speech, the implementation of the recommendations remains the critical issue. It is good to see the commonality of approach in both reports. There are some variations, and I was slightly disappointed that the strategic review group did not support our recommendation on increasing standard remission, but nonetheless the strategic review group report makes very progressive recommendations on remission. Both reports clearly seek to address the issues on prison conditions and overcrowding and explicitly want to make prison a sanction of last resort. This is the key goal lying across both reports.

Implementation is the key issue and I hope we will see in early course the establishment of the implementation group, which the Minister of State said the Minister is planning to establish. He stated she is considering the appointment of the independent chairperson. I am also very glad to hear she will refer the strategic review group report to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality and Defence for further consideration.

We on the Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality have a very good record, and I thank the Minister of State for acknowledging that, of achieving cross-party and consensual approaches to penal reform. We all want to acknowledge and record the significant progress that has been made on penal reform, and it is worth saying, as the Minister of State has pointed out, that the strategic review group reported 18 months after our own report was published in March 2013. In that period, both crime rates and rates of imprisonment had dropped. During that period also, we had seen enhanced co-operation and very structured co-operation between the Irish Prison Service and the Probation Service. That was a significant factor in the changes in Finland that we looked at. The progressive penal policy that has been adopted there is based on stronger, co-operative links between the prison service and the probation service. That is very welcome.

I know the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Fitzgerald, when she was launching the strategic review group report, said she did not want this to be another Whitaker, so-called, and that it would not simply be an excellent report which was never implemented. We do not want to see our report, the justice committee report, being another Whitaker, which is why we will continue to call on the Minister to implement its recommendations along with the 43 recommendations in the strategic review group report. Both we in this House and the non-governmental organisations, NGOs, represented here and those in NGOs watching this debate remotely will continue to press the Minister on implementation of the recommendations, a timeline for implementation and specific actions that will be identified.

I very much thank the Minister of State for beginning that process with us and setting out, on the record, various ways in which implementation will be progressed. I see this as an ongoing debate and I will be pressing the Minister of State and the Minister for Justice and Equality again on it. I thank again our colleagues from the NGOs, particularly the Irish Penal Reform Trust which is represented here. I thank other colleagues and the Minister of State for his very full response. I thank the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Fitzgerald, in her absence.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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When it is proposed to sit again?

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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Tomorrow at 10.30 a.m.