Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I welcome this opportunity to make a statement to the House on the report of the advisory group to the Forum on Patronage and Pluralism in the Primary Sector. Having a school system that can cater adequately for demand for pluralism and diversity is a priority for the Government. That is why I established the independent forum within my first few days in office. I would like to start by thanking the members of the advisory group - Professor John Coolahan and his colleagues Dr. Caroline Hussey and Ms Fionnuala Kilfeather - for their dedication and hard work during the past year.

Our nation has changed and is changing, with both a greater diversity of religious beliefs and a multicultural population. We now have a much more diverse population than we had even two decades ago. There is a sizeable minority of the population who declare themselves as having no religion. For example, national census results show that in 2002, just over 130,000 people registered no religion. By 2006, this had risen to more than 186,000, an increase of nearly 35%, in contrast to a population increase of just over 8%. The 2011 census now shows a further increase of 45%, to 270,000, in the number of people who declare they have no religion, with a population increase of another 8.2%. In addition, the proportion of civil marriage ceremonies has increased from less than 6% of all marriages in 1996 to nearly a quarter of all marriages in 2008. There are also parents of denominational beliefs who prefer a multidenominational education for their children.

The forum advisory group reports that 96% of education provision at primary level is denominational, arising from the historical development of Irish primary education. The significant societal changes that have taken place in Ireland in recent years have led to increased demand for new forms of multidenominational and non-denominational schooling. They have also led to increased demand for Irish language schooling in many parts of the country. Gaelscoileanna are now a much more common feature of the educational landscape than they were 20 years ago. Senators will no doubt be aware that various United Nations and European Union bodies have noted the lack of school choice available to parents, particularly in the area of non-denominational education. These UN and EU bodies are charged with the implementation of international human rights and related instruments to which Ireland is a party. Closer to home, there is general acceptance that a greater diversity of primary schooling is necessary, and I welcome the readiness among partners in the education world to embrace this. Many representative organisations and individuals, such as the National Parents Council at primary level, the Irish National Teachers Organisation, the Irish Primary Principals Network, the Humanist Association of Ireland and Educate Together, have called for a re-organisation of school patronage to mirror the changes that are taking place in our society. As I have said previously, the State cannot provide more schools than are necessary just to meet various demands, given the high costs associated with building, maintaining and staffing new schools, where infrastructure is already in place. Therefore, the key issue is how best to promote and develop diversity within our existing primary school system.

The forum provided a formal structure within which to conduct the debate on how we can move towards a system that is responsive to the needs of Ireland in the 21st century. The key issue I asked the forum to address is how change can be implemented. I set three broad questions: how to establish the demand for diversity of patronage in the first place; the practicalities of managing the divesting of patronage as a process; and how diversity can be accommodated where there are just one or two schools serving a community with a static population. Consultation was a key element of the forum. A number of public working sessions were held with key stakeholders in June 2011, and a plenary session at which the advisory group presented its preliminary findings was held in November of last year. A total of 247 written submissions were received, and these were carefully examined by the advisory group. The public working sessions were broadcast live over the Internet, and recordings of the working sessions are available from the website of the Department of Education and Skills along with all the submissions received and other forum documents. The advisory group also held consultation sessions with primary and post-primary pupils to ensure their views were considered as part of the group's deliberations. I would like to thank all the stakeholder groups and other interested parties who made submissions to the advisory group for their interest in and engagement with this process.

I will now turn to the recommendations of the advisory group. These can be broadly divided into three key areas: divesting patronage where there is a stable population and demand for diversity of schools; promoting more inclusiveness in all schools, including stand-alone schools, where divesting patronage to another body is not an option; and dealing with Irish-medium primary schools. The advisory group cautions against a so-called big-bang approach and advises that change of patronage should happen in a phased way through the adoption of a catchment approach, taking account of the preferences of parents. The report recommends that the first phase of this work should consist of an examination of school patronage in 43 towns and four Dublin areas identified by the Department in 2010 - arising, I must point out, from a request by the Catholic Church itself - where there are stable populations and where there is likely to be demand for diversity of provision. This would involve 18 diocese and scrutiny of approximately 250 schools, out of which approximately 50 may be divested, out of a total of 3,200 primary schools in Ireland. A three-stage process is recommended whereby the Department would gather information on the demand for divestment through parental surveys and make a report available for the patrons. In reality, we are talking about one patron, which is the Catholic Church. The patrons would then be required to respond within a definite timeframe, following consultation with school communities, with a range of options for divesting schools in these areas. The options proposed by the patrons will then be evaluated by the Department of Education and Skills and a report prepared for me. This would occur alongside a programme of provision of new schools in areas of population growth, the patronage of which would be based on parental demand.

The report makes a number of recommendations concerning the provision of Irish-medium schools, including an analysis of the way Irish-medium schools develop and the piloting of the concept of satellite schools, which would be linked to well-established parent Irish-language schools. For communities served by one stand-alone school where transfer of patronage is not an option, the report makes recommendations aimed at ensuring such schools are as inclusive as possible and accommodate pupils of various belief systems. There are, in our estimation and that of the advisory group, approximately 1,700 of these schools, mainly in rural areas, which are at least 3 km from their nearest neighbours. That is just over half of the total number of primary schools. The report suggests the development of protocols that would facilitate all schools in developing clear policies, accessible to parents, on how to manage diversity and ensure an inclusive and respectful environment for all their pupils. Items that might be dealt with in such protocols include, for example, having boards of management that reflect the diversity of communities, developing whole-school evaluation and self-evaluation by schools of their practices on diversity and ethos, ensuring equitable enrolment policies and dealing effectively with the constitutional right to opt out of religious education. Other suggestions to assist greater inclusiveness include the following: development by schools of clear policies on religious and cultural celebrations, the display of artefacts of different religions and the conduct of prayers and assemblies; a review of the rules for national schools dating from 1965, particularly rule 68, which refers to the need for a religious spirit to inform and vivify the whole school day; and the development of an ethics, religions and beliefs programme which will ensure that all children learn about world religions and beliefs.

The report also emphasises the importance of continuing to make provision for social inclusion and for children with special educational needs, while catering for diversity.

Where do we go from here? The overarching aim of the forum's work was to ensure that schools cater for diversity and ensure an inclusive and respectful environment for all their pupils, of whom there are 500,000 in the primary sector. There is a general acceptance that a greater diversity of primary schooling is necessary and I welcome the readiness among all partners to embrace this. The key issue now is how best to promote and develop this diversity. I am very conscious that the process of education and the experience pupils have of it during the progress of this work should not be disrupted or damaged in any way while we try to accommodate diversity. I am also conscious of the need to balance making real progress in divesting patronage in the short term and of the longer-term aim of ensuring commitment by all concerned to more inclusiveness and diversity in schools. Given the demands on the resources available at primary level, I am also mindful that such changes should, wherever possible, be cost neutral. The advisory group has presented a comprehensive report and I am aware that some of the issues dealt with in the report are sensitive and need to be carefully examined. I welcome this opportunity to get an input from the Members of the Seanad.

I have asked the education partners and interested parties to examine the report and take time to reflect on and digest the recommendations. I am considering the report's findings and recommendations and intend to outline my official response in the coming weeks. As per the commitment in the programme for Government, a White Paper on pluralism and patronage in the primary sector will follow.

I return to the dominant concern for the Government, namely, having a school system which can cater adequately for demand for pluralism and diversity. The last year has seen enormous progress made towards that goal. I believe the forum and the advisory group report have provided a very effective platform for a useful and constructive public debate around the issues that need to be addressed. I know that today's proceedings in this House will contribute significantly further to that debate and I look forward to listening to the views of Senators.

Averil Power (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister to the House. In particular, I welcome the report on patronage. An enormous amount of work has been put into it, not only on the part of the Minister but by the group, headed by Professor John Coolahan, which has put significant effort into this work during the past year. It is clear from reading it that there was a strong culture of co-operation among the different groups, albeit of very different persuasions and with different visions of where education might go. They worked together in a spirit of co-operation and understanding over the past year. It is an excellent report. The first chapter provides an interesting outline of the development of our education system, from 1831 until today, and how its character has changed over that period. It gives good input to this debate.

As the Minister pointed out, society has changed dramatically in recent times and as it has, so have our schools. New procedures put in place by successive Fianna Fáil Ministers have led to significant diversity in the patronage of new schools, those that have come into being in the past five to ten years. Most of these have been multi or non-denominational schools. Existing schools have also adapted as best they could to changes in the social and religious make-up of their communities. Although the vast majority of Irish primary schools are under Catholic patronage, increasingly they have welcomed children of all faiths and none. This often requires a great deal of effort, particularly from staff, as they try to cater equally for every child. There has also been an element of compromise on the part of patrons in ensuring they are reaching out and making all children feel welcome and respected. The growth of Irish-medium education in the past 20 years has also been a remarkably positive development, with the number of students enrolled in Irish-speaking primary and second level schools outside Gaeltacht areas having doubled since the early 1990s.

Although our schools have adapted as best they could in their current patronage arrangements and within the system in which they were set up, it is clear from reading the submissions to the forum on patronage and pluralism that there is considerable disquiet about the current position among all the partners in education. On the one hand, denominational patrons and management bodies are concerned about having to compromise their ethos. They state that if they are running a denominational school they want to provide a denominational education and wish that to vivify everything that happens in the school, from the first day the child comes in until he or she leaves at the end of the day. At the other end, it is clear there is an increasing mismatch between the current patronage arrangements for nationals schools and the wishes of parents. The forum quotes different research studies made on this point in recent years. In addition, the Irish Primary Principals Network published research this week highlighting the fact that three out of four parents with dependent children who responded to the Red C poll carried out for the IPPN stated that, if they had a choice, they would send their children to schools with patron bodies other than the church. It is extraordinary, given 96% of our primary schools are under denominational patronage that 75% of parents state that is not what they want. That obviously poses a great challenge, not only to the Minister but to Members of this House as they seek to represent the views of parents and ensure the education system adapts.

It is equally interesting to note from the IPPN survey that although the vast majority of parents did not want the church to manage or be owners of the schools, they wanted religion delivered during the school day. That presents an even more interesting challenge for schools, in that although parents want to see a totally different management body, perhaps more State involvement or a more secular level of management, they are very clear that they want a religious element to their children's education. Many parents see religious education as a core part of their children's education even in schools under alternative patronage.

Fianna Fáil appreciates that some parents do not want their children to undergo faith formation in any one creed at school. At the same time, we recognise that other parents view faith formation as a vital part of their child's education and believe schools must play a part in delivering that. We welcome the recommendations in the report for stand-alone schools which we believe to be positive. The reality is that in many areas there will only be the one school and it should cater equally for everybody, in both its ceremonial practices and in terms of how it treats its students and staff. This relates to the context of the debate the House will have tomorrow. Every school that receives public funding from the State should be open equally to everybody and should treat everybody with equal respect. We welcome the recommendations made concerning stand-alone schools.

In respect of other schools, particularly those in urban areas and areas where there is a multiplicity of schools, we have a concern I wish to put on the record, as we did in our submission to the forum last year. There is no doubt we are at a crossroads in that the current system does not work and we have to change it. However, we have a choice as we go forward as a society. As we seek to cater for diversity, do we want to meet the challenge of diversity by having different schools, with different children heading in different directions in the morning, based on their faith? Alternatively do we believe we can meet the diversity challenge within each school and ensure that each can cater equally for either the faith or the non-belief of every child?

Fianna Fáil recognises and cherishes the contribution the churches have made to Irish education. There is no doubt that church authorities provided educational opportunities for young people long before the State began to play a significant role. Experience also shows that minority religious schools, such as small Church of Ireland schools in rural areas, have played a vital role in protecting the vitality and viability of their communities throughout the years. As we head forward to the future, particularly at this juncture when long-term policy is being set out and we are setting up a new framework, I reiterate our concern that we should make the right choices about how diversity should be catered for into the future. When we wrote our initial submission to the forum last year, we noted that although there is no doubt the existing patronage arrangements need to evolve, we would be concerned if the divesting of schools by the Catholic Church would lead, over time, to children being segregated on religious lines. That could create further social problems that thankfully we have avoided to date, again because denominational schools have catered as best they could for everybody, children of all faiths and none. Senator Bacik is nodding her head. I am not saying people are happy with the current arrangements but while there is a cross over the door in Catholic schools and they are called St. Mary's or St. Paul's, the goodwill of teachers means they have gone out of their way to cater for everyone. Northern Ireland is an extreme example but in other countries in Europe, when people get up in the morning the Catholics go one-way, the Protestants go another and the Muslims go another. People are split up for the day. That is regrettable. When one walks into a rural school in Ireland they have symbols from various religions and they celebrate feast days. The level of multifaith and multicultural understanding was not there when I was in school, which is not so long ago. It is positive and as we look to the future we must be careful to avoid segregation, which we have not had to deal with to date.

We accept that some parents want to have faith provision within the school day and others are equally opposed to it. A model of patronage should be found to bring all children together while allowing for religious education. This philosophy underpins the announcement of a new patronage model, the community national school, by the then Minister for Education and Science, Mary Hanafin, in 2007. I welcome the fact the Minister gave approval last month for new community national schools to open over the next two years. The pilot community national schools have much to recommend them and it is positive that children of different faiths are taught together. There have been teething problems but it is a pilot programme and the first time the State has directly run primary schools, apart from the model school beside the Minister's Department. It is breaking new ground and while it is a positive idea in theory, it must be evaluated. The scheme should not be expanded until that is done. Lessons can be learned from the pilot scheme and a road can be mapped out for the future. A spokesperson for the Minister told the Irish Examiner that while the Minister was not in government when the model was approved, he is satisfied it is operating in an inclusive fashion, which will allow it to grow and develop in accordance with the wishes of parents and communities. I am glad the Minister can see the benefits of it and I am sure he is aware of the challenges. Fianna Fáil will support it.

This is a major project and while my party welcomed the setting up of the forum, we recognise the challenges and expressed considerable disquiet at the idea of transferring up to 50% of schools overnight or taking the big bang approach. That was endorsed by the report.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The 50% reference was my echoing of what Archbishop Diarmuid Martin said when he called for the forum. He said that he could do with half of the schools he currently has. That is the origin of the 50% figure.

Averil Power (Fianna Fail)
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It is a huge challenge and requires major change in order to cater for everyone. The Minister has correctly pinpointed the need to ensure it does not have an impact on the quality of education. Beyond the religious question, when one asks what is most important about school, patronage is not in the top three as far as I can recall from surveys. The key is to maintain quality of education and to plan a proper transition with a roadmap. Ultimately, it must be informed by the desire of parents at national and local level. Small schools are a major part of the local community and if there are changes, they should be driven by local groups and through partnership with parents.

We welcome the debate and the opportunity to discuss the topic with the Minister before he publishes his response to the forum's proposal in May. We appreciate the scale of the challenge and that significant change is needed. We would like to see it dealt with in a way that caters for diversity without leading to future problems in respect of segregation and social inclusion.

Averil Power (Fianna Fail)
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They are more passive.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Seanadóir d'Arcy as a chuid ama a roinnt liom. I welcome the Minister to the House. I understand life has changed significantly in schools since the mid-1990s, so in many ways the report is a little behind the action in terms of patronage. Schools have had to accommodate children from multiple faiths and countries for at least 15 years now.

In preparation for this debate, I rang approximately ten schools and various parents throughout the country, including rural and urban, small and large schools. As a result, I have a set of questions for the Minister rather than a speech and I would like to hear his answers. The first clear point was that the issue of patronage needs to be addressed with great care. We must hasten slowly. Like the report said, we must not go for the big bang, but for a gradual change so that we achieve diversity rather than exclusivity. A two-tier system has already been created in other countries, a two-tier system of exclusion through privatisation of denominational fee paying schools, for example, in the United States. I taught in the US where my first teaching job there was in a Catholic private school. I then got registered to teach in the state system which was non-denominational. The last thing we want to do is to replace our State system with a private denominational system. That is the risk unless we do this carefully and correctly with great consultation and care.

Second, can we ensure diversity by divesting Catholic patronage alone? For example, in particular areas some 99% of pupils are Catholic or Church of Ireland. Therefore, no matter what the Minister does or hopes for, he cannot ensure diversity in those areas. This is particularly true in rural areas. I asked whether any of the schools I contacted had ever refused a child enrolment because the child was not a Catholic and in each case the answer was "No". I believed that. I was also told that the child was not put down to the bottom of the list, which was also a concern. There are always weird examples, but we are talking about the majority of situations. The question I have been asked to raise is: where is the evidence that schools have refused enrolments on religious grounds? We do not see that evidence.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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There is plenty of evidence. Many schools look for baptismal certificates.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Healy Eames, without interruption please.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The big concern of those to whom I spoke is that those who shout loudest will get what they want and that the views of the silent majority, who are happy with current patronage, will be ignored. I want the Minister to discuss the process we will go through, especially with the 50 communities around the country that have been identified as sites where the Catholic Church will hand over control of primary schools. We need to know to what degree and how every parent and teacher in those communities will be consulted. Will current and future parents be the only ones to be consulted? What about past parents? A community approach needs to be taken on this. These are the questions being put to me. The Minister knows my views on rural schools and that I believe there should be a process whereby people are consulted. That has not happened.

The gradual erosion of rural schools, through the process the Minister is engaged in following budget 2012, looks like it will lead to forced amalgamation in many cases. Is there a patronage agenda behind that process? Currently, the parish is the unit of belonging throughout the country.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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Archbishop Martin -----

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Excuse me. The parish is the unit of belonging throughout the country. If these schools are amalgamated against their wishes out of necessity, is there a danger they will have a lesser identity? They will no longer have their unique ethos. They will be centralist schools without glue. This is a debate and I put the issues because I want to hear the Minister's response on them. I want to know what form patronage work will take in areas where divestment is being considered. How can parents and teachers be reassured that they will be happy with what replaces the current patronage system.

There is much in the report with which I agree, but we must be really careful how we proceed. All those to whom I spoke earlier today said that patronage is not at the top of their agenda, but what is at the top is the recession. However, when one digs deeply, one is aware they are concerned they will get something they do not want. I would therefore love to hear the Minister's response to their concerns.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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I wish to share my time with Senator Rónán Mullen.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister to the House. I was pleased to hear on "Morning Ireland" that the debating DNA of the Quinn family has been passed on to the next generation. We look forward to the Minister's son addressing the Seanad in the future. I am sure the Seanad will be retained because of debates such as this.

The 2006-2011 census shows a population increase of 8.2 %. I compliment the Minister that he was able to persuade the Department of Finance and the IMF that we need more schools for everybody, because we have 8.2% more people. This was an important departure from the necessary adjustments in our public finances. That is the optimistic side of this debate, that we will have more schools and more people in them. I hope the standards to which we have always aspired will be maintained. The configuration in the census on religious affiliation showed that the number of those of no religion increased by 83,000 in the period, but that the number of those who profess to be Roman Catholics increased by 180,000. There were some other interesting increases also. The number of those who profess to be orthodox religion was up by 24,000, the number of Muslims was up by 17,000 and the number of Church of Ireland members was up by 8,000 and Pentecostals by 6,000. There was a reduction in numbers in churches like the Methodist church.

Therefore, we have a changing situation. It is interesting that page 29 of the report indicates an increase of 17,000 in the Muslim population, but there are only two Muslim schools. I presume this will be one of the requests to the Minister. I refer to page 29 of the report. I do not see any schools reserved for the orthodox religions but perhaps they are happy with the present arrangements. However, there is concern in the Protestant denominations which comprise 174 Church of Ireland schools, 17 Presbyterian schools and one Methodist school. Their numbers are also increasing. However, I think they are not as enthusiastic, as the Minister will probably surmise, about the process. The report refers to a voluntary investiture procedure described by the Roman Catholic schools which states:

The Catholic patron, in dialogue with the local community, might make any buildings which are surplus to requirements available so that the Department of Education and Skills could plan for greater diversity of school provision in that area. If sufficient demand for a school under different patronage can be demonstrated, then all of the stakeholders should work in partnership towards that goal.

Those are admirable sentiments when expressed in that voluntary way and it is to be hoped that this will be a peaceful process without controversy and that all those who participate will be doing so voluntarily. I detect concern among the Protestant denominations that their view is that they cater for an increasing population and they already provide diversity and that the wish of the majority community to move voluntarily towards that pattern of divestiture might not be shared. I am sure the Minister will ascertain this sentiment himself in his consultations with the various groups.

I have one other concern about the report and I refer to page 93, a concern with regard to religious artefacts. This reminds me of all sorts of disputes in the northern part of the island about religious artefacts, flags, emblems and so on. I ask that we please relax and respect other people's emblems and live in the harmony which the Minister has always sought to promote and which we all share in this House.

I commend the Minister for his approach, that there is to be voluntary engagement and consultation. We have to cater for a rapidly increasing number of pupils and this includes an increase in the numbers of pupils professing allegiance to all the major religions. I thank the Minister for his address to the House and I welcome the voluntary and participatory nature of his proposals. Credit is also due to the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin for going to the Minister to initiate this process.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister to the House and to thank him for his ongoing and thoughtful commitment to debating education issues in the Seanad. I would take a critical view of the report, although I agree with many of its points. I support much of what the report has to say about the divestment process. This is an issue on which everyone is agreed that there needs to be divesting of schools in order to facilitate greater diversity. In many ways we are discussing a system which, in my view, is to a large extent not broken. If one is to look at the issues that really affect education in Ireland, there is no running sore here among a large section of the community. People are concerned about what is at times a predatory points system, pressure on the curriculum, the needs of children with special needs and how those needs are catered for. Those are the main issues in Irish education. It is true there are people who want to see greater diversity in the provision of primary schooling and they are right in this view. There are people who chafe at what they perceive as excessive denominational religious influence on the schools to which they have chosen to send their children, perhaps in some cases because they did not have the choice to which, in my view, they were legitimately entitled.

However, where I think the report falls down is that it is imbued with a strong sense of the need to cater for those who wish to be free of any religious influence but it is somewhat tone deaf when it comes to the great majority of people who are not only content with our school system as it is but who value the very denominational spirit that imbues the school to which they have chosen to send their children. In my view the report is not sufficiently respectful of the legitimate rights of a majority in Irish society. It is a strange thing that many people will agree that there needs to be more diversity, and most reasonable people will agree with that, but what is interesting is that there is strong support for the right of parents to choose schools that reflect the particular values. This was illustrated by Senator Power when she quoted the fact that 67% of parents with dependent children want the teaching of religion to take place during the school day.

We need to acknowledge that there is a degree to which it will be impossible to reconcile everybody's precise aspirations. We need to avoid pandering excessively to extremes, whether it is the extreme view represented in the choice of a particular patron of a non-church school to exclude a person because she is pregnant, in violation of every time-honoured Judeo-Christian principle of respecting human dignity, to the minority in some cases who would resent that there would even be a crucifix on the wall of a school. They are a vocal minority in our society and it is important to respect their rights but not to pander excessively to their rights because if one does so, one will end up interfering with the rights of a greater number of people. In my view it is important that we would pay tribute to the genuine Christian ethos that permeates most schools, where minorities are respected very deeply in the current display of traditions, cultural backgrounds and different religious traditions as well. However, it must never be the case that in the name of something that is modernist and pluralist, people who have deep views about the meaning of human life would be deprived of access to schools which would reflect those views. The surveys show that three quarters of the population want to see the diversity of schools, including church-run schools, and that they would continue to exist. I would be concerned that if we overdo it on the dilution of what is on offer in what are called the stand-alone schools, that in a sense we make a mockery or could end up making a mockery of the important debate which needs to take place about the divesting of schools.

We need to move to a world that is more pluralist but it needs to be a world where the cherished traditions of a majority continue to be respected and in very real ways so that we do not have dumbing down so that a kind of disinterested neutralism does not become the dominant ethos of our schools. This in itself is a value statement.

We must remember the parents in Ashbourne who want to send their children to Catholic schools and who feel they are being pushed in the direction of an Educate Together school. The choices of those parents are as entitled to respect - I am sure the Minister agrees with me - as the choice of parents in Portobello who want access to non-Catholic schools. This is the neutrality I support and I support respect for the different aspirations of different sections of the community.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I am grateful to my colleague, Senator Moran who is sharing her time with Senator Harte and me. I will speak for five minutes and Senators Moran and Harte will each speak for three minutes.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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The five minutes starts now.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister to the House on this auspicious day, 1 May, as he was the Minister at the time who introduced the May Day bank holiday. I also welcome members of the Portobello Educate Together School Start-Up Group who are in the Gallery and I thank them for coming along. I should declare that I am chair of the group and that we are one of the groups seeking change in our system. I commend the advisory group, Professor Coolahan and his colleagues, on producing what is a comprehensive, measured and balanced report. I take issue with Senator Mullen who has unfairly characterised it as being in some way biased or skewed. It takes a very measured approach and deals with a number of pressing issues. I have heard other colleagues suggest that patronage is not a pressing issue but, clearly, quality of education - I speak as a parent - is the most pressing issue, of which patronage is a key part. I went to a rural national school that was Catholic in ethos where the Catholic faith formation dominated the day.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Look how well the Senator turned out.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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It affected the quality of my education and I do not mind saying that. I think that is true of many schools, although not all because many schools seek to be accommodating. I know of children who have been turned away from schools because they were not of an appropriate religion and of others who were put very far down waiting lists. That happens. The opt-out mechanisms that are in operation, as the report has pointed out, are unsatisfactory. This was pointed out to the advisory group by numerous stakeholders. We need to bear in mind the context within which the advisory group has produced its report and the context in which the Minister, Deputy Quinn, rightly commissioned the report in the first place, which is that Article 42.3.1° of our Constitution provides that, "The State shall not oblige parents in violation of conscience and lawful preference to send their children to ... [a] particular type of school designated by the State." In a system where more than 2,800, or 90%, of the 3,200 national schools across Ireland are Catholic-run, there is clearly not any excessive pandering to the non-religious minority who, according to the recent census, now comprise-----

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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We agree on divesting

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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-----the largest group after Roman Catholics in the country, as the Minister pointed out. Only 60 schools in Ireland are multidenominational under the patronage of Educate Together, the group to which the Portobello group-----

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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There are gaelscoileanna that are multidenominational.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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Yes and the gaelscoileanna make up approximately 50 more. About 4% of our national school system is either multidenominational under Educate Together or under the patronage of the gaelscoileanna movement. These are the two biggest growing movements of parents. In my group in the Portobello area in Dublin we have more than 600 parents of nearly 350 pupils pre-enrolled and we are hopeful that we will see divestment take place in the near future because we have a real and pressing need.

In that context I very much welcome this report. It has tried to address the need for greater inclusion and greater diversity in the school population and it has done it in a measured way.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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With the permission of all the parents in that area.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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What it seeks to do in terms of the divestment issue is to, first, examine the areas where there is demand from parents in accordance with their constitutional rights. It is taking a minimalist approach in saying there are 47 catchment areas. Obviously, that is something already established with the Department, and in those areas it is setting out a blueprint as to when divestment can occur. In our area we hope we will be covered by a provision in the report which requires, at recommendation A4, that where there is established evidence of parental demand, divestment could proceed without the need to go through the phases that the report has set out.

The report has also made some valuable and important recommendations for stand-alone schools and for the need to ensure greater inclusivity and pluralism in those schools. In that context, I ask the Minister when he anticipates a first divestment might occur. Clearly, I have a particular interest in my own area and we hope our school will be open if not this year then certainly by 2013. In terms of the blueprint the report has set out - it has set out a very detailed timeline - when does the Minister think we might see divestment occur in the 47 areas? The report is very mindful of the need to ensure community sensitivities are considered and that parents are brought along with the process, and that is important.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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It will not work otherwise.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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That is acknowledged. I wish to make two further points. On the issue of faith formation in schools where there is no divestment, where there is a stand-alone school under the patronage of usually the Catholic Church, will faith formation be able to take place outside of the school day? The report recommends a variety of different ways where this could be done but clearly there might be difficulties with having it within the school day where there is a significant minority in the school.

In terms of the VECs and the community national school model, the report, at page 48, expresses certain reservations about the model, notably about the segregation of children within the school day for faith formation, which is certainly at odds with some of the demands of the parents. It also refers to the difficulty about the boards of management within the school. Some of the issues around the VEC schools that are of concern were highlighted in recent RTE reports, about which the Minister will be aware. It might be something on which we could reflect.

Educate Together, as an established and national patron, I attended its AGM on Saturday, as did the Minister, and it has charted an important and progressive way of offering education to children in a multidenominational ethos that is respectful of children of all faiths and none and which has a proven track record not only among parents who do not have a particular religion. I have plenty of Catholic friends who are very happy to send their children to the Educate Together school locally and I have plenty of Catholic friends who are very unhappy because there were not enough places in their local Educate Together school.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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And vice versa.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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The next speaker is Senator Moran. I ask Members to be silent and to allow the Senator to make her contribution without interruption.

Mary Moran (Labour)
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Thank you, Acting Chairman. I welcome the Minister, Deputy Quinn, back to the House. I acknowledge and commend the advisory group on its dedication and hard work during the past year.

During recent decades Irish society has been undergoing major political, social, economic, cultural, demographic and educational change. Among the key changes, which have had particular relevance are the greater diversity of religious belief systems and the more multicultural composition of the population. We must also acknowledge, as the Minister pointed out, the increase in up to 1,700 people who declared themselves in the 2011 census as having no religion. There are also parents with denominational beliefs, as has been pointed out, who prefer a multidenominational education for their children. These are the issues that challenge us as we try to adapt to a changing Ireland and to provide parental choice in primary education. I commend the Minister on continually acknowledging parental choice as being our main concern, which it should be, in our primary education.

Primary schools are not a place apart, isolated from the communities they serve. The significant societal changes that have occurred in Irish society, particularly during the past decade, have impacted directly on the professional lives of teachers in most primary schools. Teachers in many denominational schools in recent years have experienced at first hand the demands of a more diverse society and a school system that better accommodates that diversity. I speak from a background of being a teacher who welcomed Muslim children to the school where I taught in recent years and where, for the first time, I became aware of Ramadan and the culture surrounding it and, likewise, they became familiar with the Catholic ethos of school. I was delighted to see this from the perspective of a parent and a teacher.

At local level, schools and teachers have endeavoured to ensure, in so far as possible within the system's imposed limitations, that primary schools are open, welcoming and accommodating to all children regardless of their backgrounds, religion or culture. As a former teacher with many years experience, I am also keen to highlight the area of teacher education in light of future developments. We must recognise that most teachers have received their teacher education in a denominational context that has prepared them to work in a denominational school setting. There is currently no non-denominational teacher education and limited provision to prepare teachers to work in a multidenominational or interdenominational context . Colleges of education therefore need to be reconfigured to enable teachers to work in a variety of school settings-----

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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It happens already.

Mary Moran (Labour)
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-----and perhaps to provide opportunities to teachers to engage in additional professional training to enable them to teach in another type of school if that is there wish.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator for her co-operation. The next speaker, Senator Harte, has two minutes to make his contribution.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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I thank Senator Jim D'Arcy for highlighting my letter in yesterday's edition of The Irish Times which was based on a debate on the integration and survival of small schools. I pointed out that Northern Ireland seems to be ahead of the curve compared to the position here, for which credit must go to Minister O'Dowd, and I congratulate him on that. There is a more focused debate in Northern Ireland on integrated schools. I speak from the perspective of my upbringing in Raphoe in east Donegal where there was a mixed population of Catholic, Church of Ireland, Presbyterian and other faiths, and at one stage there was one Presbyterian and two Protestant schools in the area. They amalgamated and there is now one Church of Ireland dominated school which is also attended by Catholics. It means the Church of Ireland and Presbyterian religions have a better school than they had before. They had three small schools in buildings which were not of a good standard. We must examine the integration of schools where small schools are under threat. The churches in Northern Ireland and here have recognised that where there is a danger of two or three small schools closing it is important for local education that they integrate and develop education in the area rather than busing children to another town.

I am sure everyone will agree that Northern Ireland was not well served by having single religion schools. I grew up in Raphoe, County Donegal, and did not meet some people from the same town for the first time until university because we did not go to the same school and they may not have played sport. There is one man with whom I spoke for the first time in Belfield although we lived only 300 yards apart. Had we gone to the same school we would have been good mates as we had everything in common except religion. I felt more comfortable in his company than I did in the company of Dublin people. This is a debate we must have. It has begun in Northern Ireland, which is ahead of us in this regard. I congratulate the Minister on this initiative.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Fáiltím roimh na tagairtí a rinne mo chomhghleacaí, an Seanadóir Harte, ó thaobh moladh a thabhairt don Aire Oideachais ó Thuaidh, agus an ceart ar fad aige. An rud is annamh is iontach. Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. Táimid thar a bheith buíoch dó as teacht isteach sa Teach.

Fáiltíonn Sinn Féin, go ginearálta, roimh an athchóiriú seo ar an gcóras oideachais. Dar linn, tá an athchóiriú i bhfad thar am ag teacht. Tá géar ghá leis. Bheimís ag impí ar an Aire bogadh ar aghaidh chomh tapaidh agus is féidir leis na moltaí a chur i bhfeidhm. De réir a chéile, tá i bhfad níos mó daoine ag teacht ó chúlraí éagsúla creidimh, teanga agus mar sin de. Rugadh agus a tógadh mé i Sasana agus cuireadh mé go dtí scoil Protastúnach. Chaith mé an chéad leath de mo shaol i scoileanna Protastúnacha ansin agus nuair a tháinig mé abhaile chuaigh mé go scoileanna Caitliceacha. Bhi sé iontach an t-oideachas leathan sin a fháil ins na creidimh éagsúla.

Tá sé fíor-thábhachtach gurb é rogha na dtuismitheoiri agus caighdeán an oideachais, ó thaobh na ndaltaí de, an rud atá taobh thiar den rud seo ar fad, chomh maith le haitheantas a thabhairt do gach creideamh agus do dhaoine nach bhfuil aon chreideamh ar bith acu.

Ba mhaith liom díriú ar ghné eile nach bhfuil mórán cainte déanta faoi, is é sin an ethos Gaeilge agus Gaeltachta atá tábhachtach inár gcuid scoileanna, agus aitheantas a thabhairt dó sin. Tá sé tábhachtach go mbéadh deis oideachas tré mheán na Gaeilge a fháil ar fud oileán na hÉireann in áit a bhfuil éileamh air sin. Glacaim leis go bhfuil iarrachtaí an-mhór a dhéanamh leis sin, agus d'fháilteoinn roimhe sin.

Ba mhaith liom fáiltiú freisin roimh an chomhoibriú Thuaidh-Theas atá ar siúl ag an Aire leis an Aire Oideachais ó Thuaidh, ó thaobh céimeanna a thógáil i dtreo oideachas a chur ar fáil thar Teorann. Tá sé tábhachtach aitheantas a thabhairt dos na ceantair a bhfuil gaelscoileanna ag teastáil. Tá cinntí á dhéanamh faoi láthair atá ag dul ó mheabhair do dhaoine. I nGaelscoil Mhic Amhlaidh i gCnoc na Cathrach, i nGaillimh, mar shampla, tá proiséas comhairleachán ar bun le scoil nua a thógáil sa gceantar sin. Tá sé léirithe go bhfuil spás ins na scoileanna mórthimpeall agus tá iarratas déanta ag Gaelscoil Mhic Amhlaidh féin le scoil buan a thógáil, áit a mbéadh níos mó daltaí a thógáil san áireamh ansin. Tá sé tábhachtach na scoileanna atá ann i láthair na huaire a thógáil san áireamh agus na cúinsí oideachais agus teanga agus ethos scoile a thógail san áireamh chomh maith céanna.

Samhlaítear dom gur cheist níos mó é seo ins na bailte móra seachas amuigh faoin dtuaith. Amuigh faoin dtuaith táimid ag feiceáil go bhfuil na ceantair á mbánú agus go bhfuil tarraingt siar ra líon na ndaltaí agus na múinteoiri ins na scoileanna beaga tuaithe. Mar shampla, tá a fhios ag an Aire go bhfuil iarratas istigh chun scoil nua a thógáil ar an gClochán. Caithfear cúinsí tuaithe a thógáil san áireamh ins na cinnti atá á dhéanamh. Tá cosúlacht ar an scéal, ins an athbhreithniú ar na huimhreacha ins na scoileanna beaga tuaithe atá déanta ag an Roinn, gur "bums on seats" an slat tomhais amháin atá ann, ó thaobh scoileanna beaga tuaithe mar shampla, in áit ceantar tuaithe a thógáil san áireamh, pobal a choinneáil beo, múinteoirí a choinneáil ins an cheantar agus an ethos gaeltachta a choineáil beo ins an cheantar. Tá ceist ardaithe agam faoi seo ar an Athló agus tá súil agam go mbeidh an t-Aire ábalta fanacht dó sin.

Tá sé tábhachtach dul i gcomhairle leis an bpobal nuair atá scoileanna le comhnascadh agus an pobal a cheannach isteach ins an chomhnascadh. Tá sé tábhachtach a aithint go bhfuil sé i bhfad níos deacra daoine a mhúineadh tré mheán na Gaeilge. Níl na háiseanna céanna ar fáil agus atá do mhúinteoirí a bhfuil Béarla acu. Tá deacrachtaí móra againn faoi láthair an Ghaeilge a choinneáil beo i measc an aois óig. Tá cuid mhaith cinntí á dhéanamh ag an Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna. Tá ról an-lárnach aige i Straitéis 20 Blian don Ghaeilge. Breathnaítear dúinn nach bhfuil an ról sin á fheidhmniú sách gníomhach ag an Roinn. Tá daoine i bpobal na Gaeilge iontach lochtach ar an Roinn faoi sin, agus bhéadh muid ag iarraídh tacaíocht i bhfad níos láidre ón Roinn, ó thaobh áiseanna a chur ar fáil agus athbhreithniú a dhéanamh ar an gcinneadh gan tacú le múinteoirí óga dul go dtí an Ghaeltacht ar feadh trí seachtainí.

Tá caighdeán an oideachais ag brath níos mó ar chaighdeán na múinteoirí ná aon rud eile. Tá na giorraithe atá a dhéanamh ag an Aire, maidir leis na múinteoirí nua-oilte, chun dochar a dhéanamh. Tá an chuid is fearr des na múinteoirí atá ag teacht amach as na coláistí oiliúna chun imeacht thar lear chuig áiteanna ina bhfaigheadh siad postanna le hairgead níos mó.

Tá neart pointí eile gur mhaith liom a dhéanamh, ach tá sé fíor-thábhachtach an ethos gaeltachta a thógáil san áireamh ins na cinntí seo ar fad, chomh maith leis na cúinsí creidimh.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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We have completed the first round of party contributions. We will allow other Senators the opportunity to make a one minute contribution. It would be preferable, with the agreement of the House, if Minister responds now to what has already been said. This would give Senators who have yet to speak an overview of his initial thoughts. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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How much time will I be allocated to speak now?

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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The debate is due to conclude at 5.45 p.m. so I ask the Minister to confine himself to 15 or 20 minutes.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Or even less to allow more speakers afterwards.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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I assure Senators that in the next round of contributions preference will be given to those who have not yet spoken.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Without going through individual contributions I thank the House for the welcome given to the report and the praise for those who put it together. It was a very serious exercise involving all of the stakeholders who participated in a very constructive way and I acknowledge this. I acknowledge the contribution of Senator Averil Power and her recognition of the work I have done. She spoke about the patronage model which developed in 2007 against a background of time and population pressure. It is still a pilot project, as she stressed, and we have yet to see how it will work out. However, it is right at this point in time that in addition to existing patrons the State should have a patron body that is available for development should such development prove to be necessary or required. Out of 3,200 schools we have less than five such schools and there are no more than ten on the stocks, in contrast to Educate Together and the gaelscoilleanna movement which together, as Senator Thomas Byrne stated, have close to 100 schools and is a rapidly growing sector.

In the last round, when patronage for 20 new post-primary schools was open, the Catholic Church did not apply notwithstanding the trumpeting of one particular well-informed correspondent of one of the newspapers who gave out about the fact it did not get any schools. One cannot always be well-informed.

I get the sense that while this is being welcomed by Senators part of my response must be to discuss where we go from here and there are three areas which run in tandem. New school building can be specifically skewed in a way to provide diversity of choice in communities with growing populations. This has been reflected not only by me but by previous incumbents when new school patronage was allocated to complement what was already on the ground.

Senator Mullen is not here but he spoke about the desire of Catholic parents in Ashbourne to have a Catholic school. The Catholic Bishop in Ashbourne has not applied for such a school and I think I am right to state he has not expressed an interest in having another Catholic school in the area.

We can provide for diversity from new build in the new growth areas and are doing that. In the primary sector, that range is being provided predominantly by the gaelscoileanna under An Foras Patrúnachta, by Educate Together and some community national schools.

I propose to discuss the second area in some detail, albeit as briefly as possible and as the information is contained in the report, I will summarise. The Catholic Church, through the Archdiocese of Dublin and 22 bishops in all, indicated it sought help and assistance in trying to identify areas in which it has schools where there probably was a demand for diversity. Thereafter, a total of 47 areas comprising 43 towns and four postal districts in the Dublin area were identified. The indices of potential demand for diversity were expanded on in the report, which included an interesting set of indicators that could be used to anticipate what might be the likely demand for non-denominational or multidenominational education. It cited, for example, the increase in civil marriages and a whole host of other indicators. I note they are simply indicators and any scientific researcher would take them with caution, as they are not direct measurements. I will give an example of what I am talking about and what will be the position when we meet in three or four weeks. Arklow, which is now an outer suburban commuter town to the Dublin area and which has experienced a massive increase of a new, diverse population over the past ten to 15 years is one of the aforementioned 43 towns. At present, the town has seven primary schools, one of which is under Church of Ireland patronage. I believe another is a gaelscoil, as there certainly is a gaelcholáiste in Arklow. The town is quite typical - there are towns like Arklow all over the country - and the suggestion is that of the six remaining primary schools, it then would be for the Catholic community to consider how it would divest itself of one or two of those schools to provide for an Educate Together school, a gaelscoil or perhaps a community national school, as well as Catholic schools.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Will they have any choice if they choose not to?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The request for assistance in divestment has come from the Catholic Church.

I will turn to the third category, namely, the 1,700 stand-alone schools, including all of the rural schools. This category comprises a part of the country in which there will be no new additional capacity in the schools' infrastructure. While there may be upgrading and improvement in quality, there will be no additionality in respect of capacity. The area that has been identified is not the only such area because in round figures there are only 250 schools within the 47 areas under discussion. Moreover, given there are 1,700 stand-alone schools, one has a balance to make up the total of 3,200 schools and the Department is considering this particular area. When we meet within a number of weeks, we will start a discussion to ascertain how the method of divestment can take place in such a way that the Catholic Church does not consider itself to be abandoning certain sections of the community. These are its concerns. In some cases, the legacy of tradition means one can have a boys' school and a girls' school side-by-side. Some Educate Together schools already have been located harmoniously in buildings that were vacated by the Catholic Church because on foot of population change, the schools for boys and girls had been amalgamated into a single entity, thereby freeing up a building. A particular example in Rathfarnham comes to mind in this regard. Therefore, different models are available for such divestment.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I propose to meet the 14 stakeholders who are the educational partners, that is, various patron bodies and others, such as the unions, to give a formal response to the patronage report. This meeting will take place in four or five weeks' time, as the Department is still working on its response. I will then invite them to consider how we might examine the divestment process in such identified areas.

I refer to those who are fearful of the process. I understand that Senator Mullen used the phrase "pandering excessively to extremes". His choice of language sometimes is so mildly delivered that when it is read aloud in his absence, it has an extremity that is not conveyed when he articulated it.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I thank the Minister. He is suggesting my comments must be taken in the round.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Allow me to put this in context. If, of the 250 schools in the aforementioned 47 areas, one school under the patronage of the Catholic Church in each area was to be divested in an orderly fashion, it would constitute less than 1% of the totality of schools. No one is pandering to any excessiveness of extremes.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I have no concerns about the divesting. I was speaking in the context of the stand-alone schools.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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Senator Mullen, the Minister, without interruption.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I wish to come to that.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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I advise those colleagues who may have just arrived that the Minister is responding to the initial contributions. There will be a further opportunity to contribute after he has done so and consequently, I ask that the Minister be allowed to respond without interruption.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Senator Barrett and others referred to the increase in population and noted there was not simply a significant increase in people of no religion or of no stated religion but there also has been an increase, because of the general population increase, of 8%. However, as an economist and a statistician, the Senator undoubtedly will be aware the quantum increase in real terms was with the increase of the category of "no religion". The increase in the number of Roman Catholics was largely due to the presence of eastern Europeans, mainly Lithuanians and Poles. The increase in the Muslim population, which is not based on nationality, largely pertains to the massive increase in the number of people working in the health and related employment sectors. Most people in the Muslim community have displayed no interest in seeking to be patrons of their own schools and I note Islam does not have the same hierarchical management structure as exists in the Christian churches. At present, there are two Muslim schools and there is no demand for an additional primary school although there have been some expressions of interest. However, in confirmation of a point made by Senators Mullen, Healy Eames and others, many members of the Muslim community are more than happy for their children to be educated in what predominantly is a Christian Catholic environment and do not consider their faith to be in any way threatened by such participation. Whatever people may say about the Catholic Church, from personal experience I can account of no attempt of any proselytism on behalf of the Catholic Church directed at anyone coming into its schools from other religious faiths.

The report refers to rule 68, which, if memory serves, goes back to 1965. Most of that rule book now is redundant in many respects because of the passage of the Education Act, the provisions of section 29 thereof, as well as a whole host of measures. For example, although corporal punishment no longer exists in our primary schools, the rule book actually offers advice and suggestions as to how it should be dealt with. No decision has made in this regard. Personally, I understand the reason the advisory group identified the particular phrase, "vivify the whole work of the school", as an example of being non-inclusive and rather exclusive, were a single religion to vivify the entire day. However, when this issue is considered in the future, there may be a need to rewrite the entire rule book in the context of the 21st century and to consider it in its entirety, rather than simply taking out one particular identification.

However, to revert to the point made by Senator Barrett, there is no doubt but that the population has changed. This is not a kind of religious headcount in which primary school places will be apportioned accordingly. Many practising Catholic families have chosen or wish to have their children in a multidenominational educational environment, which at present effectively means an Educate Together school. This is as much a factor as is the formal denominational profession. The report published by the Irish Primary Principals Network, IPPN, is interesting in the manner in which it expresses preferences for people having religious formation. Religious education and faith formation are two slightly different things. For example, the reformed church, to give the Protestant churches their generic name, have a very clear approach to religious education within a particular ethos. Given that they have different theological positions on a number of issues, including sacramental matters such as the Eucharist and communion, they teach Christianity as the Bible, given this is what is shared by the reformed churches, but then rely on their tradition of Sunday school to deal with the question of faith formation. The Sunday school tradition does not exist in the Catholic Church in Ireland but exists strongly in other countries in which Catholicism is one of a number of religions. As Members will be aware sacramental preparation of children, not alone in Catholic schools, is costly and many schools are struggling to survive. For children attending a State school which provides no religious education this is provided by the Sunday school or its equivalent in the Catholic church. I am speaking in this regard of Chicago and so on as the Irish tradition is somewhat different in terms of how it is delivered.

Members will excuse my brevity but I am conscious of time. There will be no threat to stand-alone schools in rural Ireland in the sense that none of them will be forcibly amalgamated. In terms of this report, there will be no divestment in the 1,700 stand-alone schools identified. Senator Healy-Eames will be aware there is a large immigrant population in the wider Galway area. We need to develop a "protocol" - that is the word used in the report - that accommodates that diversity. We have been in the space now for over a year of people complaining about the overt religious symbolism of the Catholic religion in schools which their children attend. It is unreasonable for people - myself included - to want the Catholic church to voluntarily and in an orderly manner divest itself of churches which its owns, albeit paid for in many cases by the taxpayer and located on church or religious instruction grounds, so that we can accommodate other demands in terms of gaelscoileanna and at the same time to tell it, in respect of its stand-alone schools, that its hands must be tied behind its back. That is my own personal view. It is not what is stated in the report. I would welcome a debate on this issue. I do not believe we will get agreement from the Catholic community on the divesting of schools if it believes it is to be curtailed in terms of how it celebrates and teaches Catholicism to its own community.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I welcome that comment from the Minister.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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As the Minister will be aware the debate is due to conclude at 5.45 p.m. I propose to call on him to wind up the debate at 5.35 p.m. Is the Minister happy to take questions from Senators from now until 5.35 p.m.?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Yes.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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We will first take questions from those Members who have not yet had an opportunity to speak. I call Senator Aideen Hayden, followed by Senators Cáit Keane and Susan O'Keeffe, all of whom have one minute to put their questions.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister to the House. I also welcome the report and would like to deal with an aspect of it which the Minister also dealt with, namely, the development of protocols to facilitate all schools in developing clear policies, which are accessible to parents, on how they manage diversity and ensure an inclusive and respectful environment for all pupils, including equitable enrolment policies. The difficulties being experienced by a 16 year old pupil in enrolling at a school which is in receipt of State moneys was raised on the Order of Business this morning. I congratulate the Minister on his quick response in that regard and on his statement in regard to legislation in this area. Of significant concern in this day and age is that the education Acts did not prevent the school concerned acting the way it did.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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Would the Minister consider, in the context of the development of protocols, giving legislative status to such protocols?

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his statement on the report, which I listened to on the monitor in my office. While I welcome the review of rule 68 perhaps the Minister will tell us what is to be put in its place. During the late 1990s I was a member of a Dublin group on the separation of Church and State which was discussing this issue at that time. However, it is only now being implemented.

My question for the Minister is on faith formation. The committee has recommended the development of ethics, religious and belief programmes which would ensure all children learn about their religious beliefs. Muslim children in Catholic schools do not feel threatened because they have a strong faith base and outside of school religious formation groups, which are the equivalent of Sunday school as referred to by the Minister. Many schools cannot accommodate all types of diversity. Is it proposed to recommend to parents who feel threatened - many people fear change - by the amalgamation of all types of religion in schools that they consider establishing Sunday schools? I compliment Ms Fionnuala Kilfeather, whom I worked with on the National Parents Council, on her recommendations in this regard.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister to the House. I have a couple of queries for him. On the change, which it is acknowledged in the report will provide a challenge, will training be provided for boards of management and principals to assist them in implementing the changes required of them? The Minister referred in his statement to the schools liaising with parents. Is there a protocol in respect of which schools must liaise with parents or is it up to schools to work this out themselves? How this relationship is formed will be crucial.

The report refers to monetary compensation for divesting patrons and states that this should not be an issue, which I am sure the Minister welcomes, as do we all, although that puzzles me. Perhaps the Minister will clarify if that the case. In terms of the criteria of suitability that the Department has already set out in respect of patronage, obviously this is appropriate now as we are in the transition phase but will those criteria be changed or reviewed as new forms of patronage, of which we have not yet thought, emerge? As a mark of tribute to those who have been patrons of schools for a number of years, is there any likelihood that any of their experiences as patrons can be captured and utilised in the future? These people have gained a huge level of experience down through years. Given we are speaking about having different patrons, I would have thought it important that this experience be captured in some way by the Department.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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Perhaps the Minister would like to respond now to the specific questions asked by Senators Hayden, Keane and O'Keeffe.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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If I may, I would like to also respond at this point to Senator Moran's question on education for primary school teachers. I am embarking on a review of the 22 institutions and the 40 courses in respect of primary and secondary school teachers. By contrast, Singapore has one such body, Finland has eight and the Province of Ontario has 13. There is massive duplication, the full extent of which we do not yet know.

On primary school education specifically, we will have to ensure as taxpayers that the young primary school teachers who graduate from our five colleges are capable and qualified to teach in schools of all ethos. That is an absolute necessity. Work has already commenced at St. Patrick's College. More needs to be done, in respect of which we will enter into constructive dialogue.

On the ethical enrolment policy to which Senator Hayden referred, I said in a radio interview yesterday that because of the considerable increase in section 29 appeals and the costs and disruption associated in this regard - there is no mediation involved, the matter goes straight to law - there is a need to have an enrolment policy. Under the 1998 Act schools are required to have in place an enrolment policy that is available to parents. This was not the case in terms of the controversy which arose yesterday. We published a draft policy document on an enrolment policy last June. We looked for responses from the various participants in the area and after the mid-term break in November, we got in a very substantial volume of work on which we are working. It is intended to publish a recommended enrolment policy for consideration, to get feedback on that and then bring in legislation which would put that enrolment policy on a statutory basis.

Some things will be non-negotiable and will be enforceable by law and then there will be discussion. Neither I nor the Department of Education and Skills want to get into the situation where we are responsible for the enrolment policy of every school in the country. That is not the place to go. We do not have the capability to do that and it would be wrong to try to do so.

In response to Senator Keane's views and this whole area of faith formation, as someone who does not share the religious faith of the predominant congregation in this country, I have to be doubly sensitive but I am aware of a debate taking place in the Catholic Church. A point expressed by one section - there are no polarised positions - is that faith formation should be done within the framework of the parish. Another view expressed is that faith formation - preparation specifically for the sacraments - should be done within the school. Parents are divided in their views as to who should do it. By ensuring it is done in the school, parents do not necessarily have to get involved in it.

However, I am worried by the anecdotal stories - I stress they are anecdotal - that have been told to me by primary school teachers in smaller schools where children could be in a class where preparation for communion or confirmation could occur over two years, where they are taken out of the school classroom to go to the local church and an excessive amount of time is spent on this area. That is time within the school day. We cannot be complacent about our literacy and numeracy scores in recent times. I am not offering a judgment on that but am reporting back on what I have heard. However, it is something which must be debated.

In response to Senator O'Keeffe, we now have a formal structure whereby a body that wishes to be the patron of a school must apply in the abstract in that it must state it wishes to become the patron of a school and not a specific school. We can refuse to recognise it. An ad hoc group of people can no longer do that, which was, in effect, the case before. That will be reinforced in law. We do not have to recognise it but I want to reinforce that in law. There will be training and monitoring of how it is done. The question of monetary compensation does not arise.

In regard to Educate Together as a patron body, it has been in existence in various formations for 34 years, as we heard on Saturday. However, its formal current incorporation is much more recent. It has been on a learning curve in regard to the training it provides to its board members. However, training is provided.

Currently, there are 22,000 volunteers to whom not a single penny is paid by way of expenses and who make our primary school system function. We could not make it work without them and I salute them. They came into office last November and they have a four-year term of office. I understand Senator Jim D'Arcy said we should look at ways in which there could be more transparency and democracy in that system. I recall meeting a young curate in Roscommon who was the hard worked chairperson of three boards of management and he would much prefer to be chairperson of one board of management and to rotate it. We will open up these things, in particular in the case of the stand alone schools, although not all of them are rural schools. Anything which will make the day job easier for everybody involved must be looked at creatively. That is where we are in regard to that matter.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I was not here earlier when the Minister commented on Ashbourne but he mentioned that the local Catholic patron had not applied for a school, extra classrooms and so on.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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That is my understanding of it.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I am sure that is correct. This touches on the whole issue that comes up in regard to baptismal certificates, enrolment policies and preference being given. Maybe the Minister will agree with me that there has been a bit of a mini-calumny here because as I understand it, schools generally of whatever denomination are inclusive. Where there is a shortage of places, choices have to be made.

This is where I would fault the report somewhat in that it seems to wish to curtail the ability of schools to make particular enrolment choices. However, as important as it is to balance the need for diversity - maybe the Minister would agree with me that could be secured by certain protocols around quotas for non-traditional Irish communities, for example - it is also important to recognise that there are people, including non-Catholics, who might want to opt into a local Catholic school and it is easy to understand why a local Christian school wants to provide places to the people who most want that kind of education in the event of there being competition for places. I did not find that sensitivity present in the report.

Is enough being done to assess demand by the various school patronage bodies and by the Department? If there is a situation in Ashbourne where more than 100 people attend a meeting, want access to a Catholic school and are frustrated that they will not all be accommodated, it would seem there has been a lack of consultation somewhere along the line with a view to identifying what the patterns of demand will be in that particular area. Perhaps the Minister will comment on that.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I thank the Minister for his comprehensive response. I would like to ask again about the timeframe for the divestment process in terms of the 47 areas. The report lays down a blueprint for a timeframe but it does not set out the end result as to when it envisages some of those schools will divest. As the Minister said, it is on a very small scale and gradualist approach of approximately 50 schools in total which would divest of the period of time.

I am very supportive of what Senator Jim D'Arcy and the Minister said about volunteers on boards of management. The report clearly recommends that boards of management should be established within the community national schools as is a requirement under the Education Act. The Minister may not be the right person to ask but has there been any movement on that? The report is very clear about enrolment and that it should not discriminate on the grounds of religion. I was very glad to hear the Minister say there is a plan to put enrolment on a statutory footing in the future.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I acknowledge that it appears a thoughtful process is being planned around patronage. Will the Minister put a similar process in place for small rural schools to help them to examine their viability into the future?

The Minister gave the number of people in the recent census who registered as having no religion but that does not mean they are unhappy with the Catholic ethos in the schools in which they are registering their children. I think he acknowledged that. In areas identified for divestment and when those parents and teachers are consulted - I still do not know how that will happen and perhaps the Minister might explain that - will they have a choice to keep a Catholic ethos if that is their wish?

In regard to faith formation and teacher education, colleges of education have for quite a long time - certainly when I was teaching in one of them - been preparing future teachers to deal with world religions given that they may be teaching in a non-denominational or an Educate Together school. How is the right of staff to teach in a Catholic or Church of Ireland school to be addressed? If teachers do not want to teach in a divested school how will their rights be upheld?

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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My question pertains to the constitutional right to opt out of religious education. The historical section of the document before us is very informative in this regard. Contrary to the popular understanding, much of what we are discussing today emanates from the late 1960s and early 1970s, particularly - dare I say - during the leadership of one John Charles McQuaid. Prior to 1966 schools were required to be careful when in the presence of children with differing religious beliefs to avoid touching on matters of controversy. Much of what we are now attempting to do is aimed at restoring what was lost in the ether during a certain period of our history.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I compliment the Minister on the cautious way he is dealing with the sensitive issue of school patronage. He is aware of my concerns in this regard but he is giving due regard to the wishes of parents where a clear majority go in a certain direction. I am aware of one case in which Catholic parents are backing the Church of Ireland for patronage. That is positive and I wish the Minister well in this regard.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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In response to Deputy Mullen's question, we are investigating ways of assessing demand. When parents sign their children up for preschool places, they could be asked to indicate their preferences for denominational or other types of schooling. There have been cases of refusals. The reformed church, if I may give it that generic name, is growing in population. Church of Ireland schools previously welcomed people who desired co-educational schooling, including in my own case when such schooling was not available where I lived in Sandymount. These schools took in other people and they have grown. However, the growth of employment in the IT and other sectors means that the reformed church population is now quite large and the school in Sandymount, for example, is telling applicants it cannot offer them a place if they are not members of the reformed church. That is also true for certain comprehensive schools in south Dublin because they are legally obliged to give preference to members of their own community. We can also assess the physical location of demand through a GIS system that tracks the location of every child benefit recipient by age.

The question of boards of management for community and national schools is being actively considered. The oldest school has been in operation for shorter than four years but the question needs to be addressed none the less. I agree with Senator Jim D'Arcy on the role that boards of management can play. As part and parcel of the primary school community and various patronage models, we need to consider a different kind of protocol or practice. Many organisations find that the quickest way to atrophy is not to renew their office or board every three years. When the same person remains in the same post in an organisation, whether a GAA club or anything else, there is no opportunity for rejuvenation. Every democratic organisation is confronted with the task of retraining volunteers, bringing in new blood and thanking people for the work they have done, but boards of management need special consideration in view of their critical importance. I am conscious that I should not intrude into a space that properly belongs to other people and for this reason I would suggest protocols and arrangements rather than issue instructions on how long a board member can serve. It is not always easy to get people to do this job. I share the Senator's view that boards of management are a great resource that should be used more productively.

Senator Healy Eames asked about evidence of refusal. Unfortunately, there is plenty of evidence in areas with growing populations. I am glad to hear it is not an issue in her area.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I checked around the country and it was not an issue.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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According to the enrolment responses we have received, 80% of our schools at primary and secondary level, or approximately 4,000 schools, do not have to deal with issues of capacity and accommodation. There may be suggestions in certain areas that a child is better off in the local VEC school rather than a free voluntary school for reasons relating to special needs or educational perceptions. Such a preference would never be written down but the parents will have heard about it and, being protective, they will not complain. We have tried to deal with this issue but it is delicate by definition.

The Senator suggested that no school in a rural area has refused new students. That has been the experience. If the school has capacity, why would it not accept students?

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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They welcome them.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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This brings me to the question raised by Senators Hayden and Keane. Sometime in the 1960s our non-denominational system of primary education was turned into a denominational one. From the Stanley letter onwards, religion had to be taught at the beginning or the end of the school day or week. Schools had to remove religious symbolism from their walls while secular subjects were being taught and they had to post a sign announcing when religious instruction was being provided. Stanley knew he could never get the legislation through.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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It is not there now.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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It is long gone.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I know that but it was captured in the 1960s with the new rule book. The reason one cannot opt out of religious education is because the school can cite rule 68, which states that religion must vivify the entire school day. From what part of the school day can a student opt out? Faith formation is self-evident but if it is being done throughout the school day and one must respect the autonomy of a school to celebrate its own ethos, how can a space for opting out be provided? This is a delicate area in which we need to tread carefully.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Revivification will be inevitable.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Of course it will.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Students opt out all the time.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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Can we hear from the Minister without interruption? We have had a substantive debate and now it is time to hear his response.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I thank the Acting Chairman for his indulgence. The next step for the Department is to formulate a response to the report. This has been a useful debate in that regard. I will then bring our response to the Cabinet in order to outline how I propose to proceed formally. My intention is to implement the programme for Government by developing a White Paper on the subject. I will then convene a meeting with the 14 educational partners who have joined us on this journey to outline our thinking. I have already indicated my personal view but the final decision will be up to the Cabinet. It is more appropriate to examine the entire rule book rather than single out rule 68. I accept that rule stands out because of its subject matter but there are other rules which have become redundant. We now have legislation which was not in the Statute Book in the 1960s. A new set of regulations or guidelines underpinned by statutory law will have to be considered.

I am not in a position to answer the meaty question posed by Deputy Coghlan, however. To take the example of the school in Arklow which should be divested, how does one avoid alienating the community that sees it as part of its parish? That is where sensitivity and common sense must apply. If we can get through the process of divestment without undermining confidence or threatening participants in the education system, and do it with sensitivity, the next step in the journey will be much easier. If, for example, a school is identified as an ideal candidate to divest from a Roman Catholic ethos to Educate Together, some parents may claim they brought their children because they wanted them to complete their first Holy Communion and confirmation, and to get a Catholic ethos. As they will be out of it in three years' time, they might fully accept the necessity to move because of the majority view, but still have a difficulty owing to their justification for sending their children there. We could put a time lock on it and say that in three years from now the school will move from a Roman Catholic ethos to Educate Together. That would mean that anybody putting a child on a waiting list for that school will know that the school's ethos will change. A time dimension could be added. I am thinking aloud rather than proffering a formal policy position.

This is the process of discussing the matter with different people at different times. There are many aspects to this, including the teachers. If the teachers end up being surplus to requirements they will be put on a panel for redeployment. In the five primary teacher training colleges, there has to be a way in which not only are they sensitised to world religions as mentioned earlier, but also have a qualification in the teaching of religion that will enable them to be hired by a Roman Catholic school, a Church of Ireland school, a gaelscoil, an Educate Together school or a community national school. We cannot be providing State education at the expense of the taxpayer and producing teachers who are not qualified to teach in all of our schools - that seems self-evident. That has not happened because if 92% of prospective employers are of a particular ethos, a teacher in training will naturally ensure he or she is qualified to teach in a school with that ethos. These things will need to be done carefully and together.

In a matter of weeks the Higher Education Authority will announce the appointment of a three-person body to look at all the third-level teacher education establishments - the 40 or more courses I mentioned and the schools - in order to consider how we can get some degree of rationalisation and integration without throwing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Is that primary education?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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We are talking about the five primary schoolteacher-training colleges and 17 colleges in the State system - not private colleges - which are providing HDip qualifications and equivalent. That entire sector needs to be reviewed and that will be announced. It is part of the overall Hunt report process and I hope we will have a report sometime in the autumn of this year.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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When is it proposed to sit again?

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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Tomorrow at 10.30 a.m.