Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)

If I may, I would like to also respond at this point to Senator Moran's question on education for primary school teachers. I am embarking on a review of the 22 institutions and the 40 courses in respect of primary and secondary school teachers. By contrast, Singapore has one such body, Finland has eight and the Province of Ontario has 13. There is massive duplication, the full extent of which we do not yet know.

On primary school education specifically, we will have to ensure as taxpayers that the young primary school teachers who graduate from our five colleges are capable and qualified to teach in schools of all ethos. That is an absolute necessity. Work has already commenced at St. Patrick's College. More needs to be done, in respect of which we will enter into constructive dialogue.

On the ethical enrolment policy to which Senator Hayden referred, I said in a radio interview yesterday that because of the considerable increase in section 29 appeals and the costs and disruption associated in this regard - there is no mediation involved, the matter goes straight to law - there is a need to have an enrolment policy. Under the 1998 Act schools are required to have in place an enrolment policy that is available to parents. This was not the case in terms of the controversy which arose yesterday. We published a draft policy document on an enrolment policy last June. We looked for responses from the various participants in the area and after the mid-term break in November, we got in a very substantial volume of work on which we are working. It is intended to publish a recommended enrolment policy for consideration, to get feedback on that and then bring in legislation which would put that enrolment policy on a statutory basis.

Some things will be non-negotiable and will be enforceable by law and then there will be discussion. Neither I nor the Department of Education and Skills want to get into the situation where we are responsible for the enrolment policy of every school in the country. That is not the place to go. We do not have the capability to do that and it would be wrong to try to do so.

In response to Senator Keane's views and this whole area of faith formation, as someone who does not share the religious faith of the predominant congregation in this country, I have to be doubly sensitive but I am aware of a debate taking place in the Catholic Church. A point expressed by one section - there are no polarised positions - is that faith formation should be done within the framework of the parish. Another view expressed is that faith formation - preparation specifically for the sacraments - should be done within the school. Parents are divided in their views as to who should do it. By ensuring it is done in the school, parents do not necessarily have to get involved in it.

However, I am worried by the anecdotal stories - I stress they are anecdotal - that have been told to me by primary school teachers in smaller schools where children could be in a class where preparation for communion or confirmation could occur over two years, where they are taken out of the school classroom to go to the local church and an excessive amount of time is spent on this area. That is time within the school day. We cannot be complacent about our literacy and numeracy scores in recent times. I am not offering a judgment on that but am reporting back on what I have heard. However, it is something which must be debated.

In response to Senator O'Keeffe, we now have a formal structure whereby a body that wishes to be the patron of a school must apply in the abstract in that it must state it wishes to become the patron of a school and not a specific school. We can refuse to recognise it. An ad hoc group of people can no longer do that, which was, in effect, the case before. That will be reinforced in law. We do not have to recognise it but I want to reinforce that in law. There will be training and monitoring of how it is done. The question of monetary compensation does not arise.

In regard to Educate Together as a patron body, it has been in existence in various formations for 34 years, as we heard on Saturday. However, its formal current incorporation is much more recent. It has been on a learning curve in regard to the training it provides to its board members. However, training is provided.

Currently, there are 22,000 volunteers to whom not a single penny is paid by way of expenses and who make our primary school system function. We could not make it work without them and I salute them. They came into office last November and they have a four-year term of office. I understand Senator Jim D'Arcy said we should look at ways in which there could be more transparency and democracy in that system. I recall meeting a young curate in Roscommon who was the hard worked chairperson of three boards of management and he would much prefer to be chairperson of one board of management and to rotate it. We will open up these things, in particular in the case of the stand alone schools, although not all of them are rural schools. Anything which will make the day job easier for everybody involved must be looked at creatively. That is where we are in regard to that matter.