Seanad debates
Tuesday, 4 March 2008
Order of Business.
2:30 pm
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on Fairtrade, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 5.30 p.m. if not previously concluded, spokespersons may speak for 12 minutes and all other Senators for ten minutes and Senators may share time with the agreement of the House with the Minister to be called on ten minutes from the conclusion of the debate for concluding comments and questions from spokespersons; No. 2, statements on pharmaceutical pricing, to be taken at 5.30 p.m. and to conclude not later than 7.30 p.m., spokespersons may speak for ten minutes and all other Senators for eight minutes, Senators may share time by agreement of the House and the Minister shall be called upon ten minutes from the conclusion of the debate for concluding comments and to take questions from spokespersons, these questions to take no more than one minute per spokesperson.
Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The headline over one of the letters in The Irish Times today is "RTE's coverage of tribunal". I am respectful of the Cathaoirleach's guide with regard to tribunal business but this is an issue of the freedom of the media. I note the writer, John Cregan T.D., states he writes as Chairman of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. He writes that RTE's continued obsession with the Mahon tribunal is a matter of extreme concern to him and to many fellow Members of the Oireachtas. Does the Deputy Leader support what is stated in this letter? Did the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources have discussions on sending this letter to The Irish Times? I am concerned it is an interference in the freedom of the media.
Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am concerned that a chairman of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources would write this type of letter——
Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
——telling our national broadcaster how to respond to issues of the day and making such critical comments. Is there any other western democracy where the chairman of a communications committee would write this type of letter to a national newspaper? Will the Deputy Leader respond to my points on this issue? Does he support the view of the writer with regard to the coverage on RTE being unfair? It is a disturbing letter to be sent from the Chairman of the committee to The Irish Times undermining RTE's reporting on the tribunal. I look forward to hearing what the Deputy Leader has to state on it.
I also wish to raise the matter of the underfunding of primary education and a letter many of us received. Senators O'Toole, Healy-Eames and Alex White raised this matter last week. We have now received a letter signed by the National Association of Boards of Management in Special Education Schools, the Church of Ireland Board of Education, Gaelscoileanna, Educate Together, the Islamic Board of Education and the Catholic Primary Schools Managers Association. They are extremely concerned about the lack of realistic capitation and ancillary grants which means almost all schools will be sustained only by their community fundraising efforts.
It is time we had the Minister for Education and Science here to discuss this specific matter in view of the letter signed by so many people and sectors in education who are extremely concerned about funding. Parents up and down the country know about this because they do so much fundraising themselves. It is time for a realistic examination of primary school education.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
As a member of the committee referred to by Senator Fitzgerald, I am a solid supporter of its Chairman, Deputy Cregan and will defend his right to the death to say what he has to say. However, the letter does not represent the views of the committee and this should be corrected. The committee should not be drawn into the personal views he is entitled to hold and the criticisms he is entitled to lay and deal with like any other Member of the House. I certainly feel uncomfortable about this. I tend to keep away from this discussion in the House. It is time for a broader and more general debate on tribunals. We debated the matter previously when the new terms of reference for the tribunal were established. It should be examined again to see how it is working.
I do not know if Senators have heard but Cement Roadstone Holdings pre-tax profits for this year are down to a mere €2 billion. This worry for me has added to my sleeplessness over the past few nights. For some time now, I have been extraordinarily concerned for the Construction Industry Federation, CIF. We should give some thought for and show some solidarity with that hard-pressed group of people, the builders of Ireland.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
How they are doing is not relevant to the Order of Business.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This is a serious issue. With the costs of maintaining helicopters and changing planes, one must have some level of sympathy for them.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This is a serious issue, particularly with the recent demand from the CIF that construction workers should take a 30% drop in salary and agree to a pay-freeze for the foreseeable future.
We should give this serious consideration because the workers in the construction industry, ungrateful wretches that they are, have shown little consideration for the hardship reduced profits have forced upon the builders of Ireland. If construction workers were to show any sense of fair play, they would agree to work for nothing for the next several years to keep the builders of Ireland in the comfort to which they are used.
I believe we should go further and that churches, mosques, temples and other places of worship might consider——
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This is not relevant to the Order of Business.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The construction industry is an issue. Over the past five years the Seanad has debated difficulties with the construction industry, first-time buyers being screwed and their parents being oppressed, suppressed and being taken advantage of by profiteering, greedy and grasping builders.
The builders now have the cheek to tell us that the people working for them should take a reduction in salary. It is appalling they can do so with a straight face. I would welcome a debate on the matter. Maybe we should have a national collection to support the building industry profiteers who have taken every cent out of our pockets for the past ten years. I would welcome a serious discussion on the construction industry.
Alex White (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
A Chathaoirligh, I thought you were a little hard on Senator O'Toole as he was doing very well with his comments on the construction industry, with which I agree. He also dealt well with Deputy Cregan's letter that Senator Fitzgerald raised. This would not be the first letter or article in a newspaper which was of a politically partisan nature, dressed up as a concern for balance in the media. The Deputy's letter is another example of that. He was entitled to write the letter but we are entitled to have our views on it.
I have previously raised, perhaps to the point of tedium, the issue of the taking of Committee Stage debates. Second Stage of the Passports Bill will be taken tomorrow with Committee Stage to be taken on Thursday. It is unsatisfactory to take Committee Stage of any Bill, irrespective of how technical it is, the day after Second Stage.
Second Stage is a general debate on the philosophy of a Bill with the toing and froing between Members and the Minister. All involved need to absorb those general principles from the debate and prepare for whatever amendments they wish to bring forward. In the case of the Passports Bill, Committee Stage amendments must be in before Second Stage, which is unsatisfactory.
I also wish to raise the operation of the refugee appeals system. This morning's newspapers contained extraordinary reports about two senior members of the Refugee Appeals Tribunal. The Cathaoirleach will be happy it is not the other tribunal which Members so often raise on the Order of Business.
Mr. Michael O'Kennedy, a former Minister and Member of both Houses, and Mr. Eamonn Barnes, a former director of public prosecutions, indicated an intent to go to the High Court to challenge a statement of the chairman of the tribunal. It was in respect of the record of one particular member of the tribunal, which was challenged in the High Court and has been raised by Senator O'Toole and other Members. The chairman stated the man's record was not at variance with the records of other members of the tribunal. We now discover this statement is entirely false and other senior members of the tribunal were prepared to go so far as to appear in court, separately from their chairman, to challenge it. They have said that their records, and those of other members of the tribunal, were significantly at variance with the record of the man in question, which was challenged in the High Court and subsequently settled.
The House will soon debate the immigration Bill but this issue cannot wait until then. Will the Deputy Leader invite the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to the House to explain an unprecedented situation that has arisen in respect of this body in which we should have full confidence?
Alex White (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Members of that tribunal are prepared to challenge their own chairman. Given what we have heard today, there is a serious question mark over the chairman of the Refugee Appeals Tribunal and the integrity of that body. The Minister must come to the House to explain his views and state whether he agrees with me that there is now a serious question about the operation of the refugee appeals system in this country. We should have this debate urgently.
Déirdre de Búrca (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I echo Senator Alex White's call for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come to the Chamber to discuss the reports in the newspapers today that certain senior members of the Refugee Appeals Authority have taken a divergent position from the chairman of the tribunal. It is a serious issue that requires clarification. Under the new Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill the chairperson of the tribunal, which is to be abolished, will become the chairperson of the new Protection Review Tribunal. It is important that there be absolute confidence in the integrity of both this body and the office of chairperson. The House needs clarification on this.
I ask that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government come to the House to address the issue of testing for radon gas in homes across the country. There is a report in today's newspapers that levels 45 times the acceptable limit were found in a house in Ballyporeen, County Tipperary. The head of the Radiological Protection Institute has estimated that 91,000 homes in Ireland have high radon levels but only 4,000 of those have been identified so far. It is possible to have homes tested for radon, which is a naturally occurring cancer-causing gas. Because radon is colourless, odourless and tasteless, people often do not realise their homes may contain high levels of it. It is important that the Department encourage and facilitate people in carrying out this test. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister to the House to explain what his Department is doing to help householders to measure radon levels in their own homes.
Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I ask the Leader to arrange a debate with either the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food or the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, whoever would be more appropriate, on the issue of genetically modified feedstuffs and food. I do so in view of the fact that we almost had a Private Members' debate on this matter, which would have clarified various points. We discussed the matter previously with the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Sargent.
There is some indication in the programme for Government of an all-Ireland approach on GM foods and feedstuffs. However, when I and the other members of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food met yesterday with our colleagues from the Northern Ireland Assembly agriculture committee, they seemed blissfully unaware of an all-island approach. In his capacity as a member of the Green Party and the Acting Leader, I ask Senator Boyle to let me know what exactly is the Government's current policy in this area. Is it simply window-dressing in a document or is there a realistic policy? Perhaps the Government could arrange that the members of the Northern Ireland agriculture committee be made aware of the Government's interest, if any, in having an all-Ireland approach. As I said, when the members of the Oireachtas joint committee met with our counterparts in Belfast they seemed unaware of any such proposals from the Irish Government.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I ask the Acting Leader to arrange for the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, to come to the House for a debate on the conflict in the Middle East. In the past week, 100 Palestinians have been slaughtered and three Israelis have been killed as well. A senior Israeli Minister said that the Palestinians would bring a holocaust upon themselves. By firing long-range missiles into Ashkelon, which is 10 km north of Gaza, Hamas is tempting fate by putting it up to the Israelis despite the Israelis' superior firepower. Condoleezza Rice was to arrive there today and it is to be hoped she will help to resolve the situation. The Americans have taken little interest in the past seven years but it is important that this House should have an opportunity to debate the issue again. Mahmoud Abbas, president of the West Bank region of Palestine, has called off discussions with the Israelis, although the Israelis are still prepared to talk. It is a very complex issue but, as convenor of the Friends of Palestine in the Oireachtas, it is incumbent on me to raise it. I also welcome the fact that members of the foreign affairs committee are in the region at present. I hope they will assist in promoting dialogue between all the parties in that troubled region. However, I condemn the activities of the Israeli Government and Ehud Olmert in the slaughter of the innocents in Palestine.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am glad Senator Alex White raised the Refugee Appeals Tribunal; I have been raising it over a considerable period. I concur with the Senator's remarks. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform must come to the House, urgently, to answer a series of question on it. In the Nyembo case, in which three refugees sought redress in the courts, there was a judgment from the Supreme Court. In that judgment, Miss Justice Denham said that a statement from the chairman of the tribunal had stated, "The record of the second-named respondent [Mr. Nicholson] is not at variance with other members of the first-named respondent [the tribunal]. However," she commented, "there is no evidence in the affidavits filed on behalf of the respondents vindicating [this] assertion."
We now know that the members of the tribunal protested vigorously to the chairman and requested a meeting with him, which was denied. They then had a meeting themselves at which a letter was composed. The House should take seriously what was in the letter, which stated, "The legal strategy being adopted in these proceedings conveys the impression that the tribunal needs to hide and conceal the manner in which it does its business. The tribunal also continues to proceed in this manner without any consultation with its members, without seeking their approval, and without even affording the courtesy of an explanation to them as to why this course of action is being relentlessly pursued." It continued that there was "a widespread and increasingly public perception that cases have been allocated to members of the tribunal" with a track record of refusing refugee applicants. This letter is from members of the tribunal and was written by, among others, a former Member of this House who is also a former senior Cabinet Minister, member of the Fianna Fáil Party and a former Director of Public Prosecutions.
The most serious aspect of this is the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill which is due to come before the House. Section 137 of that Bill proposes that the current chairman of the Refugee Appeals Tribunal should automatically become the chairman of the next tribunal. That is astonishing. We must demand an explanation. This is somebody whose statement to the Supreme Court has been shown to be wrong, the implication from the judgment clearly being that it was deliberately wrong. That is perjury, and we are discussing automatically re-appointing a person in this position who does not have the confidence of the serving members. The House is entitled to an explanation.
I welcome the proposed debate on the pharmacy issue later today. I do not wish to trespass on that time but I wish to bring a constituency matter to the attention of the Acting Leader. I have been contacted by the School of Pharmacy on an aspect of the dispute that might get lost in the debate. Graduates of the School of Pharmacy in Trinity College, and presumably of the other colleges, are required to do a type of intern course for six months in community pharmacies. Due to the delay and the legal action, it appears unlikely that this year's cohort will be able to do this and, as a result, will not be in a position to become fully qualified. We will be short a complete cohort of pharmacists in 2009 and graduates will be unable to take up positions. That is a serious matter.
I support Senator Leyden's comments. I could not believe that an Israeli Minister would use the word shoah and threaten to visit it upon the Palestinian people. Another Minister said that Israel was using the army to deliver a message to Hamas. It is shameful to use it. Among the 120 Palestinian victims, as opposed to the three victims on the Israeli side which we all regret, four were small children playing football. That is not the way to deliver a message in a civilised community.
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The remarks made about the Chairman of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources are unfounded. I read the letter. It is a very calm letter and it sets out, in some detail, to query the wisdom of 18 RTE reporters interviewing, in many cases, each other about the tribunal. It is very hard to argue that this should not more properly be the business of RTE internal editorial committees, which clearly have not been doing their duty. There is no argument to sustain that on that particular week the fairly minor affairs of St. Luke's constituency office were of more importance than anything else that was happening in the country——
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They may seem minor to Senator Harris.
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
——and that 18 RTE reporters should be deployed on it. RTE senior personnel were very quick to query and express their unease at my appearance on "The Late Late Show". However, none of them mentioned, nor did anyone on the Oireachtas committee, to be fair, that on the previous week's "The Late Late Show", there had been great criticism of the Government and the week before that there had been a complete panel attack on the Government. I would regard my appearance as merely balancing the books.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thought Senator Harris was an independent Member of this House.
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It just shows that RTE has a very deficient notion of balance at the moment.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is this appropriate on the Order of Business?
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
All of this arises from the distortion caused by tribunals themselves. I am actually surprised——
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I do not want to go down that road, on the tribunals, Senator.
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The problem is that other people go down the road but I am stopped from going down it. I am not specifically going down the road of the Mahon tribunal.
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The question of tribunals needs to be examined. I remember suffering indirectly under the first one set up on money lending by Fianna Fáil. I have no brief for Fianna Fáil in tribunals. I do not agree with tribunals because they do not give due process.
We need a debate on the operation of tribunals in this country, as a general proposition because there is a new symbiotic relationship between all tribunals and the media. It is not a good thing that tribunal daily bulletins can be parsed and analysed by the media. Imagine if that was the case in the current criminal murder trial going on. What would happen if there were daily bulletins? How could one have any due process?
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
If a murder trial was parsed and analysed and things allowed to be said by defendants and everyone else that were said about the Taoiseach, there would be no justice in the world. I am surprised that Fine Gael and the Labour Party do not understand the dangers inherent in allowing a Taoiseach to be tormented without due process because nobody is safe in Fine Gael and the Labour Party from this new symbiosis of a media chasing circulation in cahoots with tribunals. The fact, for example——
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Senator's own newspaper is doing it. His own newspaper is good at doing that — chasing circulation. Is the Senator going to attack it?
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is very wrong for Fine Gael and the Labour Party to pretend they do not know that, to take one example of the distortions caused by tribunal reporting, there is hardly a cumann in the country, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, or the Labour Party, which at some stage has not made sums of money available to bury somebody——
Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Speech. The Senator is just making a speech.
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
——to marry somebody, to help someone out of a hole.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is preposterous. The Senator should withdraw that remark now. That remark is unbecoming of him.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Harris, without interruption, please.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That remark is unfair. I ask the Senator to withdraw it. He is casting an aspersion on members of my party at local level and should withdraw that remark.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is an untrue remark and it should be withdrawn.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We will deal with that in the debate.
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am pointing out that the Celia Larkin affair whereby the St. Luke's constituency office loaned her money——
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
——as if no cumann in the country had ever made financial arrangements of a difficult nature——
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It was appalling. Absolutely appalling
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Senator should not refer to individuals.
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
——whereas in fact cumanns regularly make irregular and other arrangements, to bury, marry or help people out.
Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Senator is earning his seat now.
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I would also point out that the death by 1,000 cuts which is being inflicted on the Taoiseach could just as easily been applied to the former leader of Fine Gael, Mr. Garret FitzGerald, with his special arrangement with Allied Irish Banks, and who would not have been able to survive that kind of pressure and scrutiny.
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
How would his motives have been represented?
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Senator has made his point and I now want to call on other Senators.
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In its passion to put down the Taoiseach Fine Gael is digging itself a deep grave.
3:00 pm
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I agree with the remarks of Senators Alex White, Déirdre de Búrca and David Norris on the Refugee Appeals Tribunal. We have suspected fishy business, so to speak, for quite a while and a number of decisions seemed rather questionable. Senator Norris has been strong on this matter and I have agreed with him. I support today's call for a debate on the matter with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and I hope the Deputy Leader can arrange it.
It is appropriate that the Deputy Leader is taking questions today because I have one that I know he will be able to answer fully. What is the rationale behind the recent decision, if it is a decision, on Part V of the Planning and Development Act dealing with social and affordable housing, as amended in 2002? I understood that as a result of the amendment a builder or developer could give money or land in lieu of setting aside 20% of a development for social and affordable housing or provide houses elsewhere. There has been comment on this recently. I believe it will lead to segregation, something the Deputy Leader's party opposed in the past. If a developer provides money in lieu, it takes a local authority time to find suitable land on which to spend it, hence frequent long delays in the provision of social and affordable housing.
I wrote about this matter recently and am concerned that a country as small as ours can see such unevenness in the application of the rules in various local authorities. I have great faith in the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley, and I know he means well with respect to many issues in my home county, not least Killarney House and sea eagles. I am concerned about this issue however, and know there is no better man than Senator Boyle to explain the rationale behind what is going on and where the matter is headed.
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I share the views of Senators calling for a debate on the Middle East situation. Iran is fighting a proxy war with Israel by supplying Hamas with missiles that have the capacity to reach into the state of Israel in the knowledge that there will be retaliation. Sadly, this has escalated to the point that an Israeli minister has, as mentioned by Senator Norris, used the term "Shoah", an entirely inappropriate word. It is saddening that any Israeli minister could say that this could be visited on another nation. It is entirely appropriate that we all hope such a means of destroying people is never again visited upon the world. Israel's response to the rocket attacks, murdering so many people, is entirely inappropriate, as are the rocket attacks.
Notwithstanding this, I am a strong supporter of Israel in its right to exist, survive and thrive.
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
However, the path Israel has taken is no way for it to achieve its ends.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Recent reports have criticised both Houses of the Oireachtas for not passing many laws and I do not believe many Bills have come to this House lately. I was surprised last week, therefore, to come across a survey of 49 countries by the University of Jerusalem that found Ireland regulated more than all the others. Ireland has 215 organisations with statutory powers and 52 bodies dedicated to regulation. In 1989 we regulated in only two areas but now we seem to have become the world's greatest nanny state. I am as guilty as others because we all have called on the Government to introduce various new regulations and laws. We are in serious danger of making our country very unattractive to investors, whether indigenous or foreign. If we continue to regulate and put in stipulations and regulations in regard to everything, we will make ourselves quite unattractive in the future.
One of the first things President Barroso did when he came to power in Europe three years ago was to make Europe more attractive for competitors in the future by abolishing 70 different regulations he considered were no longer needed. I ask the Deputy Leader to draw the attention of the Government to the fact that we are now excessively regulated to such an extent that we make ourselves very unattractive to investors, both indigenous and foreign. I suggest we look again at the possibility of getting rid of some of these regulations to make Ireland less of a nanny state than it has become.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I support the call for a debate on the Middle East because it seems to have gone off the radar for some considerable time. I recall a few years ago that the plight of the Palestinians would be discussed in the House regularly. We need to reactivate our concern in this regard. One of the reasons the Seanad always has had an interest in helping those in other countries less fortunate than ourselves has been that we so often ourselves have looked to the world to come and support us, particularly in regard to the Northern conflict, and we always found countries prepared to come forward and to help. We can see the result of that help in the peace which prevails on this island at present.
I can recall when some of the major powers in the world called for constitutional means to be used in the Middle East conflict and Hamas was prepared to do that. It came forward and contested the elections and won. As the result did not suit certain powers, they started to meddle again. I knew at the time when I saw the Americans coming back on stream and meddling in the aftermath of the elections that we were starting a whole cycle of violence all over again.
One thing is certain: there is no way the horrific events of recent days would be carried out with impunity by Israel were it not for the fact that it knows it has the support of other countries to do that. I have heard very little outcry about the innocent babies who were slaughtered in the recent attacks. When any minister in a civilised government threatens a holocaust on what is basically a very weak nation there should be an outcry.
We all have received correspondence from the Palestinian organisations in this country and have been in touch and have discussed the issues with them. The only hope they have to avoid this terrible horror is that nations such as Ireland that have been so fortunate to have had such global support when it has been needed and that are in a stronger position would speak out and support them in their hour of need.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I call for a debate on the Private Residential Tenancies Board in light of the fact that it has changed premises and no longer has a public office. Given that many of us live in highly residential areas where properties are rented, it would be appropriate to have a debate on that matter.
I attended a function in Cork the aim of which was to highlight prostate cancer. It is estimated that one in 14 men will become infected. Will the Deputy Leader facilitate a debate on that issue? We also need a debate on mental health, especially men's health. Women and the feminist movement rightly speak about the role of women and women's issues but it is important to raise the issue of men's health.
I wish to enlighten Senator Harris that no Fine Gael cumann has €63,000 at its disposal. That is a point he should note.
Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I concur with Senators in their request for a debate on the Middle East and the ongoing conflict there. It has been a long tradition that we have a debate on the Six Counties and I am aware that one will be facilitated this year. Does the Deputy Leader know when that debate will take place, especially given that a number of events are being organised internationally and at home to mark the tenth anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement negotiations? I ask that Senators support a request I have made to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges that as part of the debate in the Seanad we would invite the First Minister, Mr. Ian Paisley, and Deputy First Minister, Mr. Martin McGuinness, to address the House. Many Senators will note——
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We would want to hurry if we want Ian Paisley.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
How about being here for the chuckle brothers?
Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is ongoing debate in the media as to whether Ian Paisley will be First Minister next year. It would be apt that this would happen given it is ten years since the Agreement.
I agree with the call to have the Minister for Education and Science come to the House to debate the issue of funding for primary level education. This State is at crisis point with regard to primary education. The matter needs to be addressed and deserves a full one or two-day debate. The issue of water charges is a scandal. Charging our children to flush their toilets last year was only a symptom of the underfunding of the primary school network. I ask that the Deputy Leader would facilitate this debate as a matter of urgency.
I have called for a debate on the west on numerous occasions but we have not yet had an opportunity to have it, despite the fact that as we adjourned last Thursday, three businesses closed down, one in my home town of Gweedore with the loss of 34 jobs, one in Achill with the loss of 36 jobs and one in An Daingean with the loss of 40 jobs. Not only that, the company that operated those three call centres was to start up in another part of Donegal with the creation of another 40 jobs in the next two months. These closures have the same effect as thousands of jobs being lost overnight in the city of Dublin. There is serious pressure in the west. I ask that we would facilitate a debate on regional development, particularly all that needs to be done in the areas of employment, infrastructure and the necessary supports for the west.
Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The issues surrounding the Taoiseach and his finances and personal affairs are deflecting from the serious issues facing our country. Senators Harris and Corrigan both spoke passionately about depression and psychiatric illness. The Minister still has not graced this House to discuss these serious issues. It would be more in our line to discuss such serious issues in the Seanad. I feel passionate about this. The public at large will not thank us for this carry on.
Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Oireachtas Members attended a meeting with the Health Service Executive yesterday on the health service in the midlands, which is why I call for this debate. The Leader, Senator Cassidy, promised that the Minister would come to the House but she has not done so. She is coming to deal with the pharmacy issue because it is topical but I am talking about the sale of three acres of land on the St. Loman's Hospital site. Where will that money go? Will it go back into the psychiatric services where it can have an affect for the people who need it most? We need an Alzheimer's unit. The family of a 49 year old man came to me yesterday because they have nowhere to put him because there is no Alzheimer's unit in the midlands. It maddens me that we are over and back, slagging each other off about the Taoiseach's finances when the real issues are being deflected from, namely, health and education.
Shane Ross (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I join the call for a debate on the Middle East, but perhaps it should not happen quite yet. It is somewhat dangerous to talk in the heat and passion of the incident which has just happened. As all right-thinking Members in the House have said, it is an appalling situation where babies and children, or any innocent human beings, lose their lives. It appears this debate provokes sometimes unreasonable passions and it provokes anti-Israeli feeling which is ingrained in the minds of some Members of this House. I noticed in particular Senator Leyden's language. He talked about 100 Palestinians being slaughtered but he also said three Israelis were killed as well. That type of language puts one killing on one level and the other on another. That is the danger we are getting into in this debate. We all despise, condemn and are repulsed by the loss of human life. If the Israelis commit atrocities they must be condemned but we must not fall into the trap of not condemning those on the other side who also commit atrocities.
Shane Ross (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is a question of language, Senator Norris.
Shane Ross (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is a question of language. If we have that debate we must be very focused and look also at Iran and other countries in that area which are guilty of atrocities of which we cannot approve either. If we are to have a debate, it must be balanced.
I agree with Senator Quinn about financial regulation. Regulation in this country is ridiculous and is out of hand. I do not know whether the Senator said this but my belief is that we should debate not so much the regulations as the regulators. Maybe that is what Senator Quinn is seeking. Because we have so many regulators it is almost impossible to keep up with what they are doing. What we ought to do is to look at whether they are of any value.
I have severe doubts about the Financial Regulator which is very fast to pounce on a wrongdoing when it has happened but very slow to ever discover it. Its public relations staff are geniuses. When something goes wrong it comes in with its army of public relations people and pursues the person or the institution which has committed the financial misdemeanour but it rarely discovers any wrongdoing. We might debate the matter in that light.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am not happy with the rant I heard from Senator Harris on the Order of Business. I do not know if this is the appropriate place for him to defend and justify the Taoiseach's actions and, as my colleague stated, to deflect from so many issues that affect people.
I ask the Deputy Leader, as previous colleagues on this side of the House have done, to invite the Minister for Education and Science to the House for one serious debate on the underfunding of primary education. The summer works scheme is gone, although it allowed much valuable work to be done during the summer. The devolved scheme which allowed local communities to build classrooms has been slashed. Water charges have been introduced and a new form of funding, namely, fundraising, such as "Who wants to be a Thousandaire?". That is the way our schools are being funded. In the past three weeks I have written three cheques for three different schools that were trying to get advertising to fund "Who wants to be a Thousandaire?". What is our chance in the knowledge society? I do not know.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We are at the bottom of the league in a comparable position to Slovakia and Mexico when it comes to our approximately 4% investment in primary education.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Healy Eames will have to get used to signing cheques for good causes.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is because of Senator Leyden's Government.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Please. Senator Healy Eames should be allowed to speak without interruption.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the Cathaoirleach for his time, which I appreciate.
I was contacted urgently this morning about another breakdown in education. A commitment was given to Glenamaddy community school in 2001 when it agreed to the amalgamation of two schools in Glenamaddy. Those two buildings are still in existence three quarters of a mile apart. A total of 500 second level schoolchildren are being bussed from one end of the town to the other. Some of them walk that distance. This is appalling. This gives rise to loss of learning time, inconvenience to teachers——
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Senator should raise the matter on the Adjournment if she so wishes.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
——and health and safety issues. The Cathaoirleach should allow me to finish. This is why the matter is urgent. I urge the Deputy Leader to meet the Minister for Education and Science to ask her to sign off on the commitment she made to give this school the go-ahead. The school's planning permission is running out. This is the community's concern. If it loses this opportunity with the planning permission, it is back to square one.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This commitment was made in 2001 and bolstered in three elections since then by this Government as a full promise.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is not the Senator's constituency.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Her constituency is the entire country, as Senator Leyden should know.
Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I agree with Senator Leyden's comments on the Israeli Minister's gratuitous statement. I have just read a book called Kristallnacht, which describes the events in Germany in 1938 and the lead-up to the Holocaust. For a Member of the Knesset to make such a statement is extraordinary. I suggest he read his history books. We need a debate here as soon as possible so we can impress on the Minister for Foreign Affairs the need for his Department and the European Union to act.
I would like to comment, as Senator Healy Eames did, on the rant we have just heard from the Government benches cautioning my party on being burned by the tribunals.
Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I remind Senator Harris that the reason his leader is being burned is because of his actions, words and failure to convince anybody.
Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I assure Senator Harris my party has nothing to hide from the tribunal. We sleep the sleep of the innocent and do not need his advice or words on this issue.
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On a point of order, the two last speakers have described my tempered remarks as a "rant"——
Alex White (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
How is that a point of order? That is not a point of order.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is not a point of order. A point of order must be on a procedural matter.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I concur with what Senator Fitzgerald said on Deputy John Cregan's letter to The Irish Times as Chairman of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. We like debate and need debate on these important issues. However the fundamental criticism is of the suggestion that his letter has the endorsement of the committee.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That provoked some speakers and I am interested that Senator Harris found his voice. I was confused as to his position on the Taoiseach and the Mahon tribunal, although an article in last Sunday's national newspaper gave some indication in a panegyric about statues being erected in Belfast and Dublin to the Taoiseach. This is based on a dangerous myth with dangerous consequences because it suggests that the Taoiseach is of such a nature that statues are being built to him and that he must be exempt from scrutiny, investigation or, as a Deputy of the Lower House said, prosecution.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am speaking on the Order of Business.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We should not discuss the Taoiseach or any Ministers.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Harris was allowed to talk about it.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Taoiseach is not solely responsible for the peace process and the Celtic tiger. He is not the only Taoiseach who spoke to the joint Houses of the US Congress, as the Government attempted to present it some time ago. That myth leads Senator Harris and the Deputy of the Lower House to suggest the Taoiseach should be exempt from any investigation or inquiry.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Two Members have indicated and I must try to allow them to speak.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have one last point, and this is where I disagree with Deputy Cregan and Senator Harris. The evidence last Friday week was devastating.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We will not discuss anybody's evidence in the tribunal.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Fianna Fáil, as reported in the newspaper for which Senator Harris writes——
Larry Butler (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Regan speaks the same old claptrap all the time.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It was devastating to the Taoiseach and that is an important consideration when Senator Harris tries to air-brush the story.
Larry Butler (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Regan was spending more than €200,000 on his election.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
He spent his own money, unlike others.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Mahon tribunal is fundamental to restoring confidence in Irish democracy.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We can be thankful that so little media attention is paid to the Seanad or else we would be greatly enlarging the amount of coverage given to the tribunals, something that is so deplored by Deputy John Cregan and others. I support Senator Joe O'Toole's comment on the general need for us to have a discussion about how the tribunals are working. I have long been concerned about the impact of the tribunals on due process. I do not wish to get into the substantive issues being ventilated by the tribunals at the moment but there is a serious problem with the way some people's reputations are being treated.
In that context I would welcome broadly what Deputy John Cregan wrote in his letter about RTE's coverage. I would defend him also in that he did not purport to speak for the committee, even if he slyly got in the fact that he was Chairman of the Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. His plaudits in favour of RTE at the end of his letter were perhaps a little undeserved when he mentioned a broadcaster with such a strong and well-deserved reputation for balance and political impartiality. Senator Eoghan Harris could probably share anecdotes with us about a time when one left winger vied with another in RTE for the right to dictate the nation's opinions on a range of issues.
Larry Butler (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Alex White could tell us a thing or two about that.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am not sure those days have fully gone away.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Stick to the Order of Business. We should not be discussing RTE.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I also join those who have called for a debate on the Middle East. It is tragic that Israel, a country which many of us respect and whose right to exist none of us disputes, appears to deviate from the normal standards of justice seeking because it has a strong ally. It is important we have a debate on this. Many of us who like to criticise the Republican Party in the United States for its bias should note that Senator Obama and Senator Clinton will probably have very little to say in criticism of Israel over the next few months.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In the absence of the Leader today, I ask the Deputy Leader to arrange an immediate debate on the tribunals so that we can purge ourselves of the daily diatribe we must suffer. Senator Nicky McFadden rightly said, in disarray with her own party colleagues, that we need to start debating the real issues that matter to the people in the gallery and to the people of this country.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am sick of the daily, monthly and annual diatribe on these tribunals, a Chathaoirligh. You have consistently ruled it out of order. I call for a debate on all tribunals so that we can purge ourselves of the issues that some people have.
The record will show that the Taoiseach of this country, Deputy Bertie Ahern, has the best record of delivery in the history of the State.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I must be allowed to finish, as others were allowed to rant.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
While the tribunals seek to do their work, and they have done much good work, the Oireachtas must keep them under review if we are to be true to the people. As a new Senator, let me say to Senator Eugene Regan that despite his eminence in the legal profession, he is not solely responsible for the upkeep of the tribunals or the Irish legal system.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I echo the sentiments expressed by Senator Frances Fitzgerald on the letter from Deputy John Cregan. The RTE Authority was before the Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources last week, which Deputy John Cregan chairs. As far as I know, Deputy John Cregan did not then raise any issue about the level of reporting in the tribunal, so it is rather strange to find that he has signed a letter criticising the tribunal following the revelations about the £30,000 that was used to buy a particular property.
I join Senator Paul Bradford in his call for a debate on genetically modified food and feedstuffs. There was a change to the schedule last Thursday, but we should have a discussion on this issue as early as possible.
The Minister for Education and Science should come to the House to discuss the issue of a university for the south-eastern region. Senator Doherty raised the issue of regional development. Under every heading I have been able to investigate, the south-east emerges as the worst performing region. It has the highest level of unemployment, lowest level of participation in third level education and lowest average household income. A serious proposal to establish a university in the region was examined in the Port report, which has been published and is mainly positive. The Minister for Education and Science should come before the House to outline her views on the issue.
Last weekend was another appalling period on our roads. In recent weeks, Senators asked that the Minister resolve the problem regarding speed cameras. I call for a debate on road safety, of which the House has had many over the years, as soon as possible.
I support Senator Doherty's proposal. When is it proposed that the Taoiseach will come before the House? I have been a Senator for only six years during which time the Taoiseach has always discussed Northern Ireland and other issues in the Chamber at the start of the autumn session. From my observations of the workings of the Oireachtas, it appears to be highly irregular that he has not come to the House for a discussion of these issues for some time.
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Senators for their contributions. Senators Fitzgerald, O'Toole, Alex White, Harris, Hannigan, Healy Eames, Regan, Mullen and John Paul Phelan referred to the letter written by Deputy John Cregan which appeared in today's edition of the The Irish Times. I agree with Senator O'Toole that Deputy Cregan has a right to make whatever statement he likes. The question of whether he made his statement as Chairman of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, which he cited in the letter, is a matter for the joint committee. If the four Senators, including Senator O'Toole, who are members of the joint committee raise the matter in the committee, further information may be forthcoming.
Senators Fitzgerald and Healy Eames asked about funding for education. The programme for Government promised a significant increase in funding for education. While the increase was not as large as had been hoped in the Government's first budget, we are beginning to see the effects of additional funding in the schools building programme. A request will be issued to determine whether the Minister, who appeared before the House in recent weeks, is willing to make herself available for a further debate in the near future.
Senator O'Toole raised the question of the construction industry and its request to reduce costs. I suggest the social partnership talks, with which the Senator will be familiar — he may also know some of its participants — is a better forum for addressing the issue. I hope an agreement on future pay increases will soon be reached by the social partners.
Senators Alex White, de Búrca, Norris and Coghlan raised the issue of the Refugee Appeals Tribunal. I share the Senators' reservations regarding this body. It is important the tribunal has the confidence of members of the public and the Houses of the Oireachtas. The immigration Bill, which will soon come before the House, proposes a set of measures in this area. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is always willing to make himself available to the House. Senators on all sides will have an opportunity to express their concerns about this matter when we discuss the provisions concerning refugees.
Every so often, it is necessary to make a call on whether the Stages of a Bill should be taken in the quickest possible time. Ideally, all Bills should be given maximum time for consideration. Second Stage of the Passports Bill has been ordered for tomorrow and it is proposed to take Committee Stage on Thursday. The House will have a better sense tomorrow of whether further Second Stage discussion will be necessary. I will make the Bills Office aware of Senators' views on the importance of having sufficient time between Second Stage and Committee Stage to give Bills proper consideration.
Senator de Búrca raised the issue of radon gas and highlighted the case of a house where radon gas levels were found to be 25 times higher than acceptable limits. The south and west are most affected by this problem. Measures were introduced to increase take-up of testing for radon gas in households. If the Minister is available to answer questions or to make statements on the issue, it would assist the work of the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland and ease the concerns of many householders.
Senators Bradford and Phelan referred to genetically modified foodstuffs. As it happens, I attended a meeting in Hillsborough yesterday on the environment and social policy. The agriculture committee at Stormont held a similar discussion at the same time and unfortunately I could not be in both places at one time. This issue is being addressed by the Government here, the Assembly and the Executive. Four Ministries — the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Health and Children — are involved in this complex issue. Discussions are ongoing on what will be Ireland's international position on GM foods and how the commitment in the programme for Government can be best addressed. It will be useful to debate the issue in the House when further information becomes available. As Senators will be aware, the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has debated genetically modified foodstuffs.
Senators Leyden, Norris, Hanafin, Ó Murchú, Doherty, Hannigan and Mullen raised current events in the Middle East. All Senators accept that the firing of missiles from Gaza into Israel is unacceptable and that the legitimate actions of a State in defending itself must be proportionate. In light of statements made by the United Nations Secretary General and the European Union, current actions do not appear to reflect the principle of proportionality. The concern of the House will be made known to the Minister and if an opportunity to discuss the issue arises, it will be taken. Unfortunately, it is likely that the events of recent days will continue.
On the school of pharmacy, to which Senator Norris referred, I will raise the issue with the Minister. It would be an industrial dispute if pharmacists were to decide to close their premises. In that case it would not be a matter of the Government's making. It is hoped the scenario the Senator raised can be avoided.
Senator Harris and other speakers referred in general terms to the work of the tribunals. While I do not wish to discuss the work of the Mahon tribunal because the Cathaoirleach has ruled on the matter, I suggest that tomorrow night's debate on establishing an electoral commission presents an opportunity to discuss how political ethics can be addressed by means other than tribunals.
Senators Quinn and Ross raised the issue of over-regulation and noted the number of regulations and regulators. There is scope for a debate, whether on the work of the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority or on the annual reports of the relevant bodies as and when they become available. I will discuss with the Leader whether we can have such a debate in the near future.
Senators Buttimer and McFadden raised men's health and mental health. The Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Jimmy Devins, came before the House recently for a general debate on the issue of mental health, which was probably not sufficiently broad to address all the concerns Senators have raised about this issue. We will request a further debate on the topic.
Senator Doherty requested a debate on Northern Ireland. Senators have proposed several options for a debate, including on North-South bodies or to mark the anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement. The House should take the opportunity to mark the establishment of the North-South bodies and the Agreement. I will ask whether this is possible.
Senator Doherty also raised the need for Senators to air their views on certain issues facing the west. The Western Development Commission is about to be reappointed. That might be a mechanism to ask questions about matters of regional development in the west.
Senator Phelan asked a similar question on regional development in the south east. I am unsure if Senators would be willing to debate regional development for the country or have separate debates.
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We can request that too.
The Taoiseach has agreed to appear before the House, but when he is likely to be available is still being worked out. It is hoped that it will be in the near future.
With regard to Part V, the planning and development legislation, Senator Coghlan wanted particular elucidation on my behalf. The situation is quite simple.
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is nothing in the programme for Government to amend legislation in this area. While the policy of my party might differ in that regard and we might persuade people to think otherwise about how the Act might be formed, it is a matter of ongoing discussion and persuasion.
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We will see how that transpires in the years to come.
The last point following from the matter of regional development raised by Senator Phelan is the issue of university status for Waterford——
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
——and the Waterford Institute of Technology. The request has been made on several occasions but it depends on the availability of the Minister. There is no reason such a debate cannot occur.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Would the Acting Leader intervene on behalf of Glenamaddy community school?
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have made a general point on the schools building programme.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This is too urgent, because planning permission——
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Acting Leader without interruption, please.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
All I am asking is if the Deputy will make an intervention.
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It will be noted and we will see what can happen.