Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

In starting the debate on my Bill today, I am thinking in particular of the family of Annie McCarrick who disappeared 33 years ago but only now is a man being arrested in relation to that crime. Obviously, women do not disappear; something has to happen to them. We recall many other women in the 1990s who just suddenly disappeared and the State was very slow to investigate in the way it should have. I also think of the family of Tina Satchwell. For many years, justice was denied to that family and Tina was maligned. These are cases that have come up only this week. I am also thinking of the family of a teenager who allegedly suffered a sexual assault in the Ballymena area and the disgraceful way racists are using that, the issue of gender-based violence, to be racist. These are pressing issues in society.

I begin by thanking the survivors in the Gallery and especially the therapists who have come here, some from Galway and all over the country, because they really wanted to make the point that they are deeply troubled at this law which compels them to break the client relationship and to break confidentiality and to go against everything therapy is meant to stand for in doing so. I really want to thank them. This week, 60 professionals wrote to the Ministers for Health and justice and made these points very strongly, which I will talk about shortly. We have to begin with the scale of violence against women, girls and LGBT+ people in the world.

Women's Aid has had a record number of disclosures, as have all of the rape crisis networks. We know that the police have had a huge increase in reported crime as well and we know that the WHO and the United Nations class gender-based violence as the biggest threat to the health of women and girls in the world today. Such is the importance of this issue.

Sexual violence and abuse are deeply traumatic for victims and survivors. I use the terms interchangeably because not everybody wants to be classed as a victim or just as a survivor. For many, the impact can be wide-ranging and life-changing. Therapists have told me how, unfortunately, sexual violence is linked with eating disorders, self-harm, poor physical health, poor mental health, depression and, of course, suicidal ideation as well. Often therapy is the only avenue that people have to seek a way to try to cope and to deal with those issues. What the presence of being able to access somebody's counselling notes does is it completely disrupts that and they have to make a choice between seeking therapy for the horrific crime committed against them or going to court. It is one or the other. As I reported today, there is a teenager who has left the child and adolescent mental health service, CAMHS, because they heard in the media that this can happen to people and they had to decide they were not going to participate any further in it. That is a horrific situation and the Government should be moving might and main. In reality, it is a bizarre Bill to have to bring forward, particularly because we have an epidemic of gender-based violence.

It is estimated that 5% of people report their experience of sexual violence and only 14% of them ever get to court. Even then, the conviction rate is really low. What do we do? For those who brave those hurdles, we actually put them through a gauntlet of misogyny including things such as character references, victim blaming, what they wore, what contraception they used, if any, if they drank and if they took drugs. On top of it, their therapy notes - something to help them - can be seized by the defence. It is absolutely barbaric that we do this to survivors who go to the trouble of going to court. It is particularly cruel.

On First Stage, I mentioned some of what survivors have said about this experience but I will give the Minister of State some examples quickly. Sarah, a survivor of an incredibly violent attack, said that in so many ways she found her trial more traumatic than the attack. Can Members imagine saying that? She said she would take the attack again before having to set foot back in that courtroom. The Minister of State should let that rest with him that survivors are telling us this. The most heart-breaking obstacle of all, she said, was the seizure of her counselling records. After her body being violated, our courts of justice are allowing a second violation. In fact, they ordered a second violation of her mind. It was a brilliant way of describing this experience. Another survivor, Hazel, said that she worked to rebuild herself to get to know the new her. She talks about the benefit of counselling with the rape crisis team and then to find out that the perpetrator could know her thoughts, her fears, her shame and her turmoil shared during the safety of her counselling sessions. So many survivors have testified to this.

We have this phenomenon, which is to be welcomed, whereby survivors come out onto the court steps and wave their anonymity. They speak about their experience because they do not want it happening to somebody else.

Is the Government listening? What has changed in the past few years? We still have all of the rape myths, all the victim blaming going on by the Judiciary every day, and people not having their own autonomy and their own representation.

The way that this has worked in recent times is the onus is put on the victim to give their notes. Only the other day, I was told that the Garda basically said, "Hand them over because if you do not, it will delay your trial."

It is absolutely despicable the Government has decided that, rather than allowing this Bill progress and dealing with it as the Minister wants to on Committee Stage by putting whatever amendments, it has decided to put a year's block on this progress after it promising for years to deal with this issue. Obviously, I cannot anticipate what the Minister of State will say as to how he defends that but it is indefensible because he could easily work with this Bill.

No evidence whatsoever is procured from a therapy note. Some of what I have heard is that this could be unconstitutional. The right to a fair trial is extremely important - something I would defend to the death - and it is strong in the Constitution. However, there is nothing of evidential value in a therapy note. That is the key point. Therapy notes are only being used, as misogynistic tropes, as a way to undermine the complainant, to demean them, to worry them and to demean their character as well - to find a nugget in there.

I spoke to some therapists beforehand. They were making the point that a person, particularly somebody who was abused as a child or who may have got into a certain situation, could end up in counselling saying, "I blame myself." That would be seized upon by the defence. The Minister of State knows it would and yet we are allowing that to be done. People can blame themselves for ending up - and also because it is often a way of dealing with the situation that they are partly to blame. These are the ways that counselling notes can be abused.

I have spoken to representatives from the rape crisis centres as well. One of the points they made is, how is this even allowed? These are third-party notes. They are not even the notes of the person who is making the complaint. We do not know how reliable a therapist could even be as to what those notes are. The truth is that there is no other reason for this. We know that there has been an escalation in requests for these notes. It is clearly related to the fact that the defence sees the possibility because we know that misogyny is rife in society, among juries and in the Judiciary, and they know that if they can find something it can be a way of strengthening the defence's case.

In the US, there is therapist-and-client privilege so that if somebody goes in, it is a safe space for them to talk. That is the way it should be in Ireland or it should be certainly similar. What else is counselling but this? We need a similar situation here. The Supreme Court made a judgment recently which strengthened the idea that there is no requirement for these notes to be used in gender-based violence trials.

The other point that is made is that this would be unconstitutional and we cannot allow this go through. The Constitution has a right to privacy. It has a right to health. If we even say that there is a conflict of rights, why are all of the rights being given in one way? I am very confident on this if the Minister drafted a good piece of legislation and if somebody challenged that, then fine, let us have a referendum. In fact, most people are horrified when you explain this to them. They do not even know that this exists in our courts.

As I have said, more than 60 therapists, and professionals, psychotherapists, psychologists and psychiatrists in many different fields, have written this week. The Psychology Society of Ireland is adopting this now as its policy. The RCSI is looking at the exclusion of counselling notes also being part of its policy. The Irish Council for Psychotherapy is also. I welcome that the people who are trying to heal those who have been damaged by gender-based violence are taking this.

This is a health issue. The cost to the health service, by the way, of allowing people not have therapy is very high.

Now is the time to completely eliminate this. The Minister indicated that he may get rid of the waiver and introduce a very high bar for these notes to be accessed and that there would have to be a hearing. That is not good enough.

The mere fact that their counselling notes could be accessed is enough to deter people from seeking counselling and going to court and enough to cause real fear, particularly where there is a relationship with coercive control, intimate partner violence or child sexual abuse. It is not enough to try to have this halfway house. We have to rebalance this in favour of those who are victims of gender-based violence.

For the past couple of years, Simon Harris, Micheál Martin and Helen McEntee have said that this should be outlawed. Suddenly, they then changed their position to saying it should be amended. Sometimes, one has to stand up to the Judiciary or whoever is telling us otherwise and say there is no evidential value in this. No one has ever given me one example of where a therapy note was vital to somebody's right to a trial.

We have an epidemic of gender-based violence. We can recite all the figures repeatedly. We know what an explosive issue this is in society. We just have to look at what is happening in the North right now, where people have been able to use such an emotive issue to stir up hatred against minorities. At a time when we are urging people to come forward and speak out, we are assailing them with a gauntlet of misogyny. Our legal system is highly patriarchal and rooted in the idea of male entitlement to women's bodies. It reinforces that with the likes of the idea of counselling notes being used. The Minister could make a name for himself and be the first Minister to take this off the agenda. It would be a positive thing that he could do to deal with gender-based violence, something that the Government has promised for so long. He could not just go along with the easy option, as we know this issue is going to arise again and again, as happened with repeal and the X case. If one tries to find the easiest thing to do, the issue will not go away.

It is shameful that the Government has taken this position in the face of what is such a pressing issue. I will certainty urge all parties and TDs to reject the Government amendment.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank the Deputy. I call on the Minister of State, Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan, to move the amendment.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South-West, Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:

"Dáil Éireann resolves that the Criminal Law (Prohibition of the Disclosure of Counselling Records) Bill 2025, be deemed to be read a second time this day twelve months, to allow for consideration by the Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration to consider and bring forward provisions relating to Counselling Records.".

I know Deputy Coppinger is disappointed that this is the approach the Government has taken. I will explain the rationale behind it because she has set out eloquently and represented the voices of victims and professionals in terms of the difficulties that are experienced when it comes to counselling notes and their use in court. She has pointed out the distress, anxiety and severe trauma that has caused to women in particular who have experienced gender-based violence. I commend her on that and on raising the issue, bringing it before the Dáil and ensuring it is discussed.

The reason we are taking this decision is based on the advice that the Bill, as it stands, is unlikely to withstand a constitutional challenge. When a Minister is given that advice, he or she has to act on it and be guided by it. That is why we are going with the 12-month amendment. We do not want a situation where, unintentionally, we cause the balance to come down on the side of the accused. I certainly do not believe that would be an appropriate measure.

I will set out the approach that the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, is taking. He is taking the matter seriously. It is something that he is already working on in terms of trying to find a method or solution to ensure that victims do not experience that trauma, as the Deputy has rightly pointed out.

The Criminal Law (Prohibition of the Disclosure of Counselling Records) Bill 2025 aims to delete subsection 19A of the Criminal Evidence Act 1992 and replace it with measures providing that the content of counselling records shall not be disclosed in criminal proceedings for a relevant offence; a competent person shall not disclose counselling records in criminal proceedings for a relevant offence; neither the existing nor content of counselling records shall be requested for disclosure in criminal proceedings for a relevant offence. A relevant offence comprises sexual offences, coercive control offences and offences involving the physical, emotional, sexual or mental abuse of one person by another within a close, intimate or family relationship.

The Minister, Deputy O’Callaghan, and I are fully aware of the distress and revictimisation that disclosure of personal records, including counselling records, can have on survivors of sexual violence. One of the most difficult things that this House has to do is to resolve issues around conflicting constitutional rights. The disclosure of counselling records is a complex and highly sensitive balancing of individuals' rights. On the one hand, there is the victim’s right to personal privacy and, on the other, the accused person’s right to a fair trial. It is our duty to ensure that these constitutional rights are appropriately balanced.

This Bill, in its current form, seeks to prohibit the disclosure of counselling records in criminal proceedings. However, in the criminal domain, the prosecution has a general duty of advanced disclosure that is based on the common law, Article 38.1 of the Constitution, Article 47 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union and Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights. It is essential for the purpose of a fair trial that the prosecution disclose all relevant material within its possession, power or procurement to the defence. A blanket ban on the disclosure of counselling records is not compatible with the Constitution and is unlikely to withstand a constitutional challenge, as I have already pointed out.

The Attorney General’s office points out that the constitutional right to trial in due course of law entails a duty upon the prosecution authorities to ensure that appropriate disclosure takes place of matters that may help the defence or damage the prosecution in any criminal prosecution, meaning that appropriate disclosure is a bedrock of a procedurally fair and just process of prosecution. The Attorney General’s office advises that this Bill creates an absolute carve-out for counselling records, which almost inevitably breaches Article 38.1. Elevating the rights of a victim of an alleged sexual offence in this way inevitably comes at the cost of defence rights and trial in due course of law. In the event of such a challenge, it appears highly probable that this proposed amendment would result in a finding of constitutional invalidity.

I reassure the Deputy that the Government intends to address the serious issues raised in the House. For this reason, we are tabling a timed amendment to this Private Members' business.

The law in this area was substantially reformed in 2017 by the insertion of section 19A into the Criminal Evidence Act 1992, which was drafted with the intention of ensuring an appropriate balance between an accused person's rights to a fair trial and a complainant's rights to privacy. Section 19A permits an accused person to make an application to the court for the disclosure of counselling records but it also allows the victim to object to the disclosure of those counselling records. If a victim objects to the disclosure, the judge will examine the counselling records and decide whether there is relevant information to be disclosed to the defence. The victim is legally represented at this disclosure hearing and, under the law, is entitled to have a solicitor or barrister, engaged by the Legal Aid Board, to act on the victim's behalf.

Even where a court orders disclosure, it may impose any condition it considers necessary in the interest of justice and to protect the privacy of any person. These include a condition that part of the record be redacted; that the record not be disclosed to any other person without leave of the court; that no copies be made of it; that the record be viewed only at the offices of the court; that the record be returned to the holder; and that it be used solely for the purposes of the criminal proceedings.

Similarly, if a victim does not object to the disclosure of counselling records, the disclosure is still made under strict conditions. The prosecution requires undertakings from the defence as to how the records will be held and used. For example, the records may not be occupied or distributed to any anybody else, they may be consulted only in certain settings and they must all be returned to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

Regrettably, it appears that section 19A has not operated in practice as intended. Victims have felt compelled to agree to waive the disclosure hearing in order not to put a successful prosecution at risk or risk delaying their trials, and their records are routinely being released. This is not good enough and we are taking steps to address it.

As the Deputies will be aware, the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, recently secured Government approval for the drafting of the general scheme of the criminal law and civil law (miscellaneous provisions) Bill 2025. The general scheme includes measures to amend section 19A by requiring that a disclosure hearing take place in all cases, removing the provision that allows for this to be waived. This will ensure that the original intention of the legislation will apply, mandating the court to assess the relevance of any counselling record through a judicial process.

Consideration is also being given to further strengthening section 19A by amending it to provide that disclosure of counselling records shall only be made where there would otherwise be a real risk of an unfair trial.

The effect of these changes would be very beneficial. It would mean that if a person accused of an offence wanted access to counselling notes there would have to be a hearing in advance of the trial to determine whether he or she was entitled to them. The judge would have to look at them. There would not be an opportunity for a complainant to say that he or she would waive their right to object. A judge would also only say that the notes had to be disclosed to an accused in circumstances where the judge thought a fair trial would not be possible if they were not disclosed. This approach is a targeted recalibration of the existing legislation, enhancing protections for victims while protecting the accused’s constitutional right to a fair trial.

I would like to conclude by reiterating this Government’s commitment to protecting vulnerable victims and to assure the Deputies of our dedication to this objective. Combatting domestic, sexual, and gender-based violence is a core priority for this Government. At the heart of our efforts is the zero tolerance strategy, a comprehensive plan to shift societal attitudes, strengthen protections, and ensure survivors receive the justice and support they deserve. The Government is fully committed to implementing this strategy for 2022 to 2026, with a new national strategy set for 2027 to 2030. Zero tolerance means no form of abuse - physical, emotional, sexual, or coercive - will ever be ignored, excused, or accepted. It is about real change, not just in our laws but in our attitudes, institutions, and communities.

One of our key priorities is guaranteeing safe refuge and accommodation in every region of the country. The zero tolerance strategy commits to doubling the number of refuge spaces by the end of 2026. No one should ever feel they have nowhere to turn. Survivors deserve safe, supportive environments where they can rebuild their lives. Cuan, the statutory DSGBV agency, is working closely with front-line service providers, local authorities, the Department of housing, and the Housing Agency to accelerate the delivery of domestic violence refuges. We are investing in services to ensure that survivors can access the help they need, when and where they need it.

Under budget 2025, funding to tackle DSGBV has increased to €70 million. Since 2020, funding for these services has tripled. The Government has also increased funding for Cuan to almost €67 million, strengthening the resources needed to implement the zero tolerance strategy effectively. We recognise that DSGBV has a profound impact on children. That is why the Cabinet has approved legislation that will remove guardianship rights from those convicted of killing their partner or the other parent of their child. This should not be treated as a private legal dispute, it is a child protection issue that belongs firmly in the realm of public law. This legislation delivers on the programme for Government commitment to review guardianship rights in such cases and aligns with key recommendations from the study on familicide and domestic and family violence death reviews.

Our work to protect survivors does not stop here. We are working with An Garda Síochána to ensure that individuals can be informed of serious risks if their new partner has a history of domestic violence. This is about protecting individuals from harm, a matter that requires a careful, comprehensive legal approach to balance privacy with protection. We are dedicated to working with all relevant stakeholders to develop practical and effective solutions. While responding to violence is essential, prevention is equally critical. We must build a society based on respect, equality, and mutual understanding, starting with education. We are introducing new, age-appropriate educational programmes in schools focused on respect, consent, and healthy relationships. Young people must understand acceptable behaviour and feel empowered to challenge harmful attitudes.

Engaging men and boys is also crucial. We are working to challenge harmful gender stereotypes and promote positive models of masculinity to help break cycles of violence. We have made important strides in raising awareness. The responsibility for leading this work has moved to Cuan, who are at the forefront of these efforts. Their "Hardest Stories" campaign was recently launched, a powerful initiative breaking the silence around DSGBV and ensuring survivors feel heard, valued, and believed. Moving forward, we will continue to support these campaigns and ensure our work aligns with the Government’s broader priorities. We are fully committed to implementing practical, effective solutions that provide real protection and support for those who need it most. A zero-tolerance approach to DSGBV means addressing not just the violence itself, but the conditions that enable it. However, the work is far from over. We will not stop until every survivor has the safety, support, and justice they deserve.

I reiterate to Deputy Coppinger that there is broad agreement on what her Bill is trying to achieve. The Minister has received legal advice that this Bill would not withstand a constitutional challenge. That is something the Minister has to take seriously. He is working on a method and solution to address this serious and worthy issue.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank Deputy Coppinger for this important Bill and acknowledge all the people in the Gallery. There is something deeply broken in how we treat survivors of sexual violence in this country. I am not just talking about the underfunded services or the months-long waiting lists, although they are a part of it. I am talking about what happens when somebody does everything we ask of them, when they survive, report and stand in a courtroom and tell their story. Then we tell them their private counselling notes, pages filled with their most intimate thoughts, fears and memories, might be handed over to the very people who are trying to tear their credibility apart. A Cheann Comhairle, the absolute antithesis of justice is the retraumatising of its victims. This is retraumatising by design. It is State-sanctioned cruelty. That is why I support Deputy Coppinger's Bill today.

Right now we allow defence teams in sexual offence cases to apply for access to survivors' therapy records, where people speak the unspeakable and finally try to process the violence inflicted upon them, where trust and safety are supposed to exist. We have decided that is fair game in a courtroom. We call ourselves a country that supports victims and believes in a trauma-informed system but those are just words in a press release if we cannot do the most basic thing, namely, protect the private thoughts of someone who has been violated. We do not subpoena someone's confession to a priest or demand to see the notes of a TD's therapist, but a rape survivor, apparently her words, feelings and her mind are available for dissection if it helps get someone off the hook. We tell women to report and to trust the system, and then we betray that trust in the most personal, invasive way possible.

We only have to listen to survivors like Hazel Behan and so many others who have spoken about the terror of knowing their words, written in a safe room, could be weaponised against them in court. It is State violence in another form. This Bill simply says "enough". It says we do not care more about the defence strategy than we do about someone's right to seek help and privacy. It says that counselling records are not evidence, they are sacred. I know some will raise concern about the issue of a fair trial but let us be honest. What is fair about a trial where the burden of proof is on the victim to prove what happened to him or her, and that makes such people hand over every page of their inner life just to be believed? What is fair about putting trauma on public display while the accused sit shielded by the presumption of innocence? There is this idea that the system is balanced. It is not. It is clearly tilted against survivors and anyone who does not come into the courtroom with power already in their back pocket. This Bill does not tip the scales too far the other way. It simply tries to make the balance a little less cruel.

Let us not pretend this is radical. It is by no means revolutionary. It is catching up to what survivors have asked for over and over again. This is us finally hearing what they have been saying, that their healing should never become part of someone else's defence. The real tragedy is that this even needs to be said, but it does. If we believe victims, then we should and must protect them, not just in posters or during awareness week but in legislation, in courtrooms and in every decision we make. I support the Bill and urge all Members to do so. We must stand with survivors to protect their right to heal in peace and finally say we will not turn their pain into someone else's legal strategy.

Máire Devine (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Céad míle fáilte to all those in the Gallery, who are back again. I thank sincerely an Teachta Coppinger for bringing this Bill to the Dáil on Second Stage. Her dedication to survivors is quite clear in the legislation she authors and this should be recognised. I cannot say the same for the Government. To block this proposal is unsettling and one questions why. Due process, yes indeed, but as many of us will outline, due process can be achieved without tearing and ripping apart people's, in this case mostly women's and girls', private thoughts and private spaces. Why is the Minister of State saying that a well worded, well researched and well overdue Bill needs to wait at least another 12 months?

As Sinn Féin's junior spokesperson on domestic and gender violence, I meet with many survivors who are all highly critical of the practice and legality of their counselling session notes being used in court settings. They universally described feeling violated and revictimised by the seizure of their private thoughts via their therapy notes. One woman whose abuser pleaded guilty immediately upon his arrest still had to wait two years before his sentencing hearings, and her counselling notes during those two years could have been subject to use in sentencing, even though there would be no trial. It does not make sense. There is no requirement that survivors be notified of their use so this woman would have been unexpectedly confronted by this in a sentencing hearing and the preparator gaining access to her intimate thoughts via those notes. She was so afraid of this likelihood that she decided to forgo seeking therapy all together until after the sentencing. She told me she felt severe retraumatisation by the justice system.

These survivors are often subject to victim blaming tactics from defence lawyers and allowing access to counselling notes further perpetuates this practice. Survivors need to feel secure that their healing journey is truly private and that therapy is a safe space for them to be completely honest, raw and open. This is the entire point of therapy. No one can progress without that total honesty to themselves in a safe space. As a psychiatric nurse, I know the pathway when I am referring constituents who come to me with this trauma. Recently a teenager, just gone 18, had trauma for several years in the context of being groomed for violation. Anyhow, we will not go into that here. I was telling her the pathway to counselling, what she should expect and all that sort of stuff but in the back of my mind there was always the niggle regarding whether I might be sending her down a road that could be more traumatic than what she had been talking to me about.I am very protective of her yet I know she needs to offload in a very safe space, to be, as I said, herself and to be able to speak freely. In the back of my mind, though, is this niggle about whether I might be allowing the perpetrator further sadistic-type gratification if he, and it usually is a he, were to get hold of such counselling notes. It is a question that makes me pause sometimes, and I should not have to do it and neither should any of the victims who seek help to survive. It is long overdue that we would eradicate the fear our justice system is imposing on brave survivors. Let us recognise counselling notes as a private and therapeutic space rather than as evidence.

The Minister of State outlined the violence against women and girls and so much that needs to be done, including so much legislation, by this Government and us as legislators. Deputy Coppinger has given the Government an almost perfect Bill. We are here to discuss it, amend it and do what needs doing to it, but we are not here to wait 12 months for it to happen. We need Valerie's law, Jennie's law, and child protection, but again we have been waiting and waiting. In the meantime, I am getting updates from Factiva every Monday of every case where a woman or a girl has been attacked or where there has been sentencing. It is growing in volume. Every Monday on Factiva, I am getting pages and pages of it. The service searches the Internet, the courts and everything. This type of crime just seems to be growing.

The attitude of young men is quite frightening. There is also the attitude of the contagion taking place, as we said about Ballymena and Larne, and about our own places in Dublin, including in Dublin 8, where young men are on the rampage. We need them by our side, as was said. We need men and boys too. There has to be more we can do in this regard, but it all seems to be waiting and waiting. I do not think we, them, boys, men, girls and women, have that time. I urge the Minister of State, therefore, to complete these actions sooner. It is a question of respect and care. Do we as a society actually respect survivors who often risk everything to come forward to seek justice? Do we care about the welfare of our fellow human beings? If we decide we do respect survivors and do care for them and for our society, we must ban the use of counselling notes in court settings in a robust manner that can withstand legal challenge.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak on this issue. I commend Deputy Coppinger on again highlighting this issue by bringing it here to the floor of the Dáil and, more importantly, by bringing forward this legislation because legislative change is required in this area. I acknowledge that the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, has recognised this to the point that he has said he plans to deal with this issue as part of the criminal law and civil law (miscellaneous provisions) Bill 2025, which the justice committee I chair will be shortly conducting pre-legislative scrutiny of. I have some fears, though, due to the remarks by the Minister of State. What the Government has done very well is set out what the problems may be in terms of a potential constitutional challenge. It has done this without actually dealing with the problems or setting out any of the resolutions. In fact, the Government has just said there is a problem and it is not going to deal with it at all. That is very regrettable.

It is also regrettable that rather than allowing this Bill proceed to Committee Stage, the Government has tabled a delaying amendment. It is bemusing because usually the Government puts forward an amendment proposing a delay of nine months. It is often known as the pregnancy amendment clause. The Government recognises it would be too crass to even suggest that so it is a 12-month delay on that basis. That is regrettable because I reiterate as the chair of the Oireachtas committee that will deal with this issue that we would welcome debates to address the issues the Government has said exist. That would be the most appropriate mechanism and forum for addressing any challenges that might present. This is because - and it has been said but it needs to be repeated - victims of rape and sexual violence have been very clear that the disclosure of counselling notes has been doubly traumatising for them. Very commendably, many victims have spoken about this publicly. They have waived their anonymity to set out in stark terms what the impact of this provision in law has meant for them. As legislators, we have an obligation to listen, hear and, more importantly, to act because clearly this is not an easy thing to do. It is a measure of the anger and frustration of the victims at how the disclosure of counselling notes has left them feeling.

Victims and survivors have spoken of it as a second violation, soul destroying and an invasion of privacy. For victims, the idea that their private counselling notes, where they talk about what happened to them, would be read to the perpetrator, the defence team, the prosecution and, even to be quite frank about it, the judge, significantly compounds the trauma they have experienced. Even without this provision, we should note that many victims and survivors are reluctant to even come forward and report what has happened to them because they often feel they are the ones who will be put on trial. The disclosure of counselling notes for many just simply confirms their fears about how the justice system treats victims of rape and sexual assault. To be fair to others, they have spoken about how they have not got counselling because they did not want to have their personal notes disclosed to the perpetrators and to the court. This then delays their ability to rebuild their lives and work through the violence and trauma they have experienced. We need to understand this as legislators. We are being told there is a provision in our law that creates a situation where some victims either do not go to the counselling they need or do not go to court. This is a very big deal and we cannot just brush it off legally here.

I was struck by the argument regarding the value counselling notes could bring to a trial.

It is not the victim’s words; rather, it is the counsellor’s record and, often, his or her views.

To go off on a tangent, I dealt with a family once whose young teenager was misdiagnosed by every health professional as having an eating disorder. Throughout the process, no one believed the child did not have an eating disorder. The child actually had a physical condition that was resulting in a loss of weight. Subsequently, the family received all the medical records and details through freedom of information requests. As part of that, the psychologists who the family met in hospital wrote in their notes to the effect that the child and family were in denial, etc. Imagine something like that being handed to a judge. In that instance, the psychologist involved was entirely wrong. In a defence team’s hands, however, those notes would be used to destroy a legitimate case. We need to be mindful of that. We also need to be mindful that the majority of counsellors, psychologists and psychiatrists are good at their job and play a good and important role. They are telling us clearly that this, in their professional opinion, is dangerous and that there are implications as to it having a particular impact.

I welcome the visitors to Dáil Éireann, including those from the professions who deal with this issue at the coalface. Usually, we say to people in the Public Gallery that although they are welcome, they should not have to be here. In this instance, however, those present should be coming to the Oireachtas. We should be bringing them here to get their perspective on the experiences of the people they see in counselling sessions relating to the criminal justice system in order that we can learn and ensure we make the system better. It is virtually indisputable that we need to strengthen the entire justice system when it comes to the support it offers to victims and survivors, both in the context of the experience of dealing with the policing system and the Courts Service and the supports that are provided through the legal process and afterwards.

All of this needs to be premised on ensuring that the process does not add to the trauma. This should be the starting point when we are dealing with victims of any crime, but particularly cases of sexual assault, rape and gender-based violence. We must end the lengthy delays for rape and sexual assault cases that are forcing people to put their whole lives on hold for long periods. We have to improve communications and protections for victims and survivors when perpetrators are released, which is often a difficult and anxious time for many. This is just not considered in the law at all.

To speak on behalf of the members of the Joint Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration, we have been clear that we wish to see some of the campaigners who have courageously spoken out on this issue, including the solicitors who have been proactive in respect of it, to be part of our pre-legislative scrutiny of the Minister's legislation. The greatest travesty would be if the Minister brings forward a legislative change that goes through the Houses, which can take time, and then, at the end, Deputy Coppinger ends up having to redraft her Bill and bring it back before the Dáil because the meaning of the Minister’s legislation, in the context of the Judiciary, meant little difference to those people who have sent us a clear message that the system needs to change profoundly.

We have been given a challenge that tests all of our words, both Government and Opposition, and particularly those of the male Members of this House. While we have said that there will be zero tolerance, a sea change and so forth, we now have an opportunity whereby we can prove all of our utterances right. I appeal to the Minister of State, the senior Minister and all members of the Government to ensure that we do not waste this opportunity.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome those in the Public Gallery to Dáil Éireann. I am sure Deputy Coppinger will agree that the reason we are all here is thanks to the activism and the loud voices of the people who are in the Gallery, as well as those who, unfortunately, were not able to be here today. I thank the Deputy for bringing forward this Bill. Hers has been an incredibly strong voice on this issue in the Chamber. This is the type of issue she has championed and continues to champion.

It is really horrific when we consider what we are talking about and what this Bill is trying to rectify. It is incredibly difficult, if I am honest, to put into words what I wish to say. I decided to speak to a friend of mine who is a therapist. She understands the practicalities of this issue and the impact it is having on her work and the people she meets. She told me that it takes such strength for people to come to therapy in the first place. No matter the issue a person is going to therapy about, it takes a huge amount of courage and strength to go to there. While it may be becoming more common in this State, it is a relatively new thing. In a situation where rape has occurred, it is particularly difficult to go to therapy and speak to someone. She also told me that the therapy is based on the concept of confidentiality. That has long been the fundamental concept of therapy. How can someone heal properly and fully if they feel they cannot speak fully about the experiences and their detrimental impact on their mental health? If people feel they cannot express themselves and outline their experiences in full, it slows the therapy process and can derail it entirely.

My friend also told me that it has a serious impact on the bond a therapist can have with the person attending therapy. That also has a huge impact if people believe that in going to therapy, their deepest thoughts, feelings, emotions and experiences can then be read out in court. It completely retraumatises a person if their deepest thoughts, experiences and emotions can be read out in court. I am sure the Minister of State can think of an experience where he has shared his deepest feelings and thoughts with a friend or family member, thoughts that are deeply traumatic. Imagine then that friend or family member taking notes that could be subsequently read out in a courtroom full of strangers. I hope he fundamentally agrees that such a situation would be extremely difficult, especially when we are talking about cases involving rape.

My friend told me that hearing those experiences and one’s own words coming back can put a person physically and emotionally back in the place they were in. This has severe effects on their mental health and can set them back severely. There can be a deep feeling of isolation as a result. That is something we could all comprehend if we were in such a position. My friend also mentioned, as did my colleague Deputy Carthy and, potentially, others, that the real fear is that people will not go to court or that they will not go to therapy in order to get the benefit they need from doing so.

How easy is it to have ordinary medical records read out in court?

In that light, why is it allowed in the case of psychological notes? I think it was an Teachta Coppinger who said earlier that this means it is clearly not a safe place for a client, even though that is what it is supposed to be.

There are often things in politics that you know will take a lot of time to sort, and you might ask if there will be a real-life impact, but this is a Bill that will have a real-life impact on many people into future generations. I just cannot believe that the Government is not looking to progress this Bill. To be fair to Deputy Coppinger, she said that if the Bill needs to go through committee - obviously it needs to pass through Committee Stage - and be amended, so be it. The Government has armies of civil servants who can go through a piece of legislation and see how it can be amended. It is extremely regrettable that when we have the power to change things, this power would not be used. It is particularly shameful when we have a Gallery full of people who have used their voices loudly and clearly on this matter. In addition to those who are here, there are hundreds of people who could not make it here today. That we are here in this Chamber and not acting on it is an absolute disgrace.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Ar dtús, ba mhaith liom an Bille seo a mholadh don Teach. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta Coppinger as ucht é a chur faoi bhráid na Dála.

I would also like to welcome all of those in the Gallery who made the journey to Leinster House today to hear the debate on this very important legislation. I met a couple of people I know outside, including a constituent who is a therapist and a proud advocate and member of Therapists Against Harm. I also met a survivor of sexual assault who is here with her mam. All three of them are women. All those women and their comrades are very welcome to their Dáil here tonight.

Right now, the situation in our courts is that survivors of rape and sexual abuse can have their private counselling notes dragged into court and read by the very person who sexually abused them. The Minister of State should think about that. After surviving something so deeply personal, so violating, they are being told to hand over the most vulnerable parts of themselves - their inner thoughts and fears - again, and for what? To be doubted and humiliated and for those facts to be dissected again. Counselling and therapy is something that is very intimate and personal. It is supposed to be a safe place where people can communicate their anxieties, fears and hopes. In the context of someone having to endure the horrifying and traumatic experience of sexual assault, people feel this is the only place where they can be truly honest and candid about their experiences and feelings. When you are sitting there in the counselling room, the only person your therapist cares about is you. Most victims of sexual abuse are women. Women are mainly the empaths and the carers in society. We are mammies, sisters and daughters. We are always thinking about how the attack that happened to us affected our families and our friends.

It is unbelievable to have a place where you do not have to worry about what other people think, and where you are not judged. When it is just you and the counsellor, you can be your complete and honest self. You know that how you are expressing yourself might upset people you love, so the therapy session is a place where you are fully safe, where your guard can come down and where you do not have to worry. It is the first time that many women feel the worries of the world are off their shoulders. The Minister of State would be surprised if he knew how many women he knows have suffered some kind of a sexual attack in various degrees but he does not know that about them. It is absolutely shameful to think that people would then be told that their trust will be completely betrayed. Nobody should have any access to those sessions and to those notes. The idea that the perpetrator can read someone's personal private counselling notes, where they talk about the trauma they have endured, is extremely unsettling for many women. We have heard how so many of them believe that this means reliving what they have already suffered through. The women who are here tonight have taken the brave decision to wave their anonymity specifically to campaign for change in relation to the disclosure of counselling notes, and I commend them. Now is the time for us, as their legislators and representatives in the Dáil, to support them.

I acknowledge that Deputy Carthy, as Chair of the justice committee, has made it clear that Sinn Féin wants the voices of victims and campaigners to be at the heart of the pre-legislative scrutiny process. This Bill can go through. It may not happen in a year, even without the one-year delay. It will take at least that for the hearings and the pre-legislative scrutiny. The Minister can have his team of lawyers working on his own Bill if that is what he wants.

It is imperative that this Bill protects victims of rape and sexual assault from further trauma during the legal process to secure justice for those affected. Counselling is a place for healing. These sessions must not be used as courtroom ammunition. The right to a fair trial is critical. An Teachta Coppinger has said that she would fight to the death for the right to a fair trial but that fairness does not mean we turn a blind eye to power imbalance. It does not mean survivors should have to choose between seeking help and seeking justice. We can and we must protect both justice and dignity. We need a judicial system that works for survivors, not against them. I know the Minister is working on his own Bill but he should be prepared to listen to an Teachta Coppinger and to the witnesses that Deputy Carthy has said he intends to invite to the justice committee for pre-legislative scrutiny.

The purpose of this Bill is to right a wrong. When I was outside the Dáil earlier, one of the survivors said that when the Constitution was written they were not thinking about women at all. This is an opportunity to right a wrong that is in the Constitution if the Minister of State says that this Bill is unconstitutional. I ask him to listen to the women he works with and the women in his life. Blocking this Bill is just more of the power imbalance. As an Teachta Coppinger said, the notes of the therapist are actually hearsay. This is third-person or third-party information. It should not be before any court of law.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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I welcome our guests in the Gallery. I know that some of them have spoken out publicly about this. Sometimes, that is not very easy to do. I welcome the fact that they are here. Hopefully, with their support and that of others we can get legislation in place. I hope it is this Bill. I hope we do not have to wait for 12 months or two years or any longer, because this is overdue. I thank Deputy Coppinger for bringing forward the Criminal Law (Prohibition of the Disclosure of Counselling Records) Bill 2025. The Bill is very welcome and way overdue because of the sheer number of serious cases of rape and murder that are being prosecuted through the courts. We have had the Satchwell case in recent weeks. Today we have new steps being taken with the investigation into the case of Annie McCarrick. We know of other cases of missing persons, such as JoJo Dullard. Numerous people over the years have been raped and murdered. We need to start getting to grips with it as a society.

As the previous speaker said, this is about righting a wrong. These people, mainly women, go through a trauma and then they go through a trial. Victims have told me how difficult that was for them, with the adversarial nature of it. The courtroom is a very adversarial place. Some Members of the House are lawyers. I am not but I have witnessed some court cases. It is a very adversarial place to be and can be very difficult, particularly around sensitive issues like this, with abuse or rape.

There were victims of abuse in institutions, including a lot of young men. We have had the awful rape of and violence against women. A lot of that has happened within marriage, partnerships and what is termed the family home.

When this was first discussed in recent years, in my innocence as a layperson I could not believe counselling notes would be dragged up in court and a person humiliated and traumatised. It is shocking. I could not understand and fathom it.

I have been contacted by women and a couple of men who have asked me to support the Bill. Some have told me their stories, which are shocking. One young man, who I will call Damien, is an alleged victim of serious sexual abuse as a child. He went for counselling, which helped him. In many cases, counselling prevents people from engaging in self-harm or ending their lives. The case involving him and others will come to court in the next year or two. The thought of the counselling notes being read out in court is shocking. It is absolutely terrible.

We cannot have counselling without confidentiality. That is the only way it can happen. We are retraumatising victims through the disclosure of counselling notes during the trial process. Counselling has to be a safe space, but once notes are disclosed, that is compromised. People will either not go to counselling or will not disclose everything. That is a fact. I certainly would not. If I were a victim, I would not go near counselling if I thought my counselling notes would be used in court. It is absolutely shocking. The disclosure of counselling notes or records completely undermines the whole basis of the process and can only be used to browbeat victims in court. I see defence in court doing that. The importance of the privacy of counselling for recovery and saving lives cannot be overstated. Anything else will deter victims.

The Minister of State said the Office of the Attorney General pointed out there is a constitutional right to a trial in due course of law and there is a duty on the prosecution to ensure the appropriate disclosures take place. This is not an appropriate disclosure. I would like to see that tested in court. I do not think any sane person could argue in favour of that. I would like to see somebody put forward the argument that this is an appropriate disclosure. What is appropriate about disclosing counselling notes? These are the victim's notes and the trial is about the perpetrator being on trial, not about the victim being on trial. I would like that tested in a court of law.

The previous Minister, the Minister for Education and Youth, Deputy McEntee, promised, as I recall, to right this wrong. That has not happened. A lot of progress has been made. Legislation has been passed to give protection to victims. As I said, victims are predominantly women. For example, Coco's Law contains serious penalties, and rightly so, for anybody who thinks of sharing what could be classed as intimate images. It is mainly men who do it, but women may also do it. That law is important and I welcome that we now have it in place.

As I said, the previous Minister said she would address this. It is in the programme for Government. The Minister of State has said the Government wants to delay the Bill for a year. What is wrong with letting it go to Committee Stage, where it can be amended, and trusting the House to fix it, along with the parliamentary legal team, the Office of Parliamentary Legal Advisers? What is to stop us from doing that?. This is an excuse to bat this back.

The Government needs to be more open. The Government often asks the Opposition for our solutions. Here is a solution being put forward to right a wrong, as was said earlier. The Government should be more open. We need to get away from the belief that, because something is not a Government Bill, the Government will not support it. Sometimes the Government brings forward stuff that is positive and the Opposition supports it. It needs to work both ways. I hope we can have a speedy passage of legislation to deal with this.

On gender-based and domestic violence, the Minister of State mentioned that one of the key priorities of the Government is guaranteeing safe refuge and accommodation in every region in the country. He referred to zero tolerance. I agree with him. I do not think anybody would disagree with him. I live in a county where there is no refuge. I did not have as many grey hairs on my head when I first started talking about this issue. I have lost count of the number of Ministers I have raised this with. We need refuges in the nine counties that do not have them. In my county, Laois, people who are victims of domestic violence and their children have to be shipped off 60, 70 or 80 miles to Longford, Limerick or somewhere, in many cases, which is scandalous. They are away from their families and children are away from school. They are away from their GP and family support. We cannot continue doing this. We have to able to do things more quickly.

We have to go through a lot of jigs and reels to get anything moving. It is like moving a glacier and is the one thing that is frustrating in this country. I realise we have to do things right and I am not talking about doing things in a slapdash manner, but it takes significant time to move things. It is like rolling a huge stone up the top of the hill and, every time you are nearly at the top, the stone pushes you halfway back down and you have to start all over again. Those centres need to be in place. I ask the Minister of State to bring this matter back to Government. The Cabinet needs to fast-track refuge provision.

I have spoken to the county council about a refuge. Councillor Caroline Dwane Stanley has raised this issue consistently at county council level. We need to get this moving. In the case of Laois, a site has been selected and, as far as I know, the money has been approved. We need to get things moving. Heads need to be knocked together.

We cannot have victims of abuse being shipped off with their young children, in many cases 60, 70 or 80 miles away from everything. It makes life worse for them. Not having anywhere to go stops people from leaving abusive situations. Sometimes people go back to a situation. I saw that happen with somebody in my extended family, a second cousin, who kept returning and we could not understand why. I understand now because it was the 1970s and there was nowhere for the person to go. It is now 2025 and we still do not have refuges. We need to fix that.

Let the Bill go through, amend it on Committee Stage and get on with getting the legislation in place. We should give this priority. The promissory note was passed here one night when we sat until, I recall, 5 o'clock in the morning to bail out the banks. Bailing out the banks might have been important, but this is more important in terms of sorting out people's lives and helping them.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Coppinger once again for raising this important issue and all Members of the House who contributed to the discussion. I assure Deputies that I have listened very carefully to their contributions and will convey their views to the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan.

Violence against women is an epidemic in our society. We are all aware of the chilling statistics. One in every two women has experienced sexual violence, according to the 2022 sexual violence study by the CSO. These crimes are pervasive and under-reported and demand a societal response. I empathise with the aims of the Private Members' Bill. Those who seek counselling after a sexual violation are seeking healing and a safe space to recover from their trauma. Criminal trials are difficult for victims, and the use of their personal counselling notes in such trials can be extremely distressing. This Government is determined to create a victim-centred justice system where survivors can feel safe and supported throughout the process.

However, a blanket ban on the use of counselling notes is not the solution. Banning the disclosure of counselling records entirely would mean challenges to convictions. Convictions would be overturned if the courts were to find the accused's right to a fair trial had been compromised. The Attorney General has advised that the proposal is unlikely to survive constitutional challenge. All of this would undermine the interests of the victims.

It is for this reason the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, intends to press forward with targeted amendments to section 19A. These amendments would be brought before the House in due course for discussion with Members. It it is for this reason the Government is putting forward the timed amendment which I moved earlier.

This will allow the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, to consider and bring forward provisions relating to counselling records. As I have already outlined, these provisions will ensure that counselling notes are only used in criminal trials where this is absolutely necessary. This will balance the right of the victim to privacy with the right of the accused to a fair trial. It is a difficult but necessary balancing of rights, which we are called upon as legislators to undertake.

I did not do so earlier, and I want to acknowledge those in the Gallery who are sitting above me. They include counsellors, professionals and survivors. I want to say to them that we do not make this amendment lightly. I know there are survivors here who clearly have met with many Deputies and shared their experiences. There are also counsellors. What is clearly coming across from the debate today is that there is a fear that counsellors will not be able to do their job in an effective way if this practice continues. This is why the Minister is looking at a method and a way to address this.

I thank the Members for their contributions. They were very heartfelt and informative. Because of their discussions with survivors, they have outlined the stress and trauma they feel, especially when the perpetrator has an opportunity to go through their deepest thoughts in the counselling notes. That must be absolutely chilling for survivors. Deputy Cronin mentioned the safe space that survivors should find themselves in when they go to these counselling sessions and how effective they can be. Obviously, this element of our law creates difficulty with regard to the session being the safe space that it should be. I appreciate this. Deputy Stanley made a point on the provision of refuges nationwide. His is not the only county, I would imagine, with the experience he outlined but the intention is absolutely there to ensure there are refuges throughout the country.

This particular Bill has been deemed challenging from a constitutional point of view. I want to read from my script because this is not dismissing it, it is the Minister taking the advice of the Attorney General, which is something he is compelled to do. It states, "The Attorney General’s Office advises that this Bill creates an absolute carve-out for counselling records which almost inevitably breaches Article 38.1". We speak about letting it go to Committee Stage for amendments. The Bill carves out counselling, which is deemed unconstitutional.

I want Members and those in the Gallery to know that the Minister and the Department are dedicated to trying to resolve this issue. I know the Minister has met some survivor organisations and absolutely intends to meet more. This will be the case. I appreciate the comments from Members in particular and the feedback, and I will feed that back to the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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We should register that it is poor the Minister is not here himself. No offence to the Minister of State but it is also poor that he is not even in the area of justice. He is in the Department of heritage and housing, I believe. This does not send a good message.

What the Minister of State has read out is even more disappointing than I thought it was going to be. Listen to what the Minister is saying; he is saying that "Elevating the rights of a victim of an alleged sexual offence in this way inevitably comes at the cost of defence rights and trial in due course of law." Elevating the rights of a victim costs the defence? I have had the suspicion all along that this Minister is really not getting it and is really not that particularly interested in gender-based violence but is more focused on migration and chartered flights and all of that. This is barrister speak. One of the problems we have is that the Minister is soaked in the courts system. Inevitably, he will go along with what has always been the way.

The other thing that is particularly scary is the part of the speech which states, "It is essential for the purpose of a fair trial that the prosecution disclose all relevant material within its possession, power or procurement to the defence." Obviously we all agree that all relevant materials should be being handed over. Counselling notes are not relevant material. This is the point we are making. To have these things just regurgitated back shows there is no development whatsoever in Fianna Fáil or the Government on the issue of violence against women and gender non-conforming people; it really does.

We have to say it is brilliant we have therapists here. It is brilliant we have had such activism on this issue. This has to be the start of a movement. We have to learn the lesson that any time anything has ever changed it has never come from within the system; it has always been through pressure from outside, through movements and grassroots campaigns, as we saw with repeal, marriage equality, gender recognition, the water charges and the defeating of austerity measures.

The Minister of State spoke about balance in his speech. What balance? Gender-based violence is practically a non-prosecuted crime. If we add up the statistics, the reporting is so minuscule and then there is the attrition rate of people who drop out while they wait the four to five years for their case to come to court. They go through all the barriers, and there are so many barriers that we cannot even imagine, and they get through them, and then potentially their therapy can be used. It is an non-prosecuted crime. There is no balance to be rejigged towards the defence. It is really bad to hear these tropes again and again.

The Minister of State said we cannot have a blanket ban. Why not? These things should not even be in the equation. The Minister of State spoke about putting it into the hands of a judge. Why should it be in the hands of judge? We have seen many judges come out with dreadful rulings. Let us talk real. We saw Natasha O'Brien. She wanted to come this evening but because of the debate being put back until later she could not do so. She was ready to be here tonight. Natasha O'Brien had to speak out about the judge after her case.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputy-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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No, that is a fact. The idea that judges are always right and should have arbitration on this is not right. I do not agree with giving all power to a judge.

I thank the Sinn Féin Deputies who have stayed and contributed to the debate on a Thursday evening. It is a pity there were not more parties. How many more women and people, because we had male victims in the Gallery when First Stage of the Bill was taken, will have to suffer this during the year we are waiting for the Minister? A year is a disgrace. Why would the Government put a stop on my Bill for a year? It shows it is not serious about moving on this quickly, as has already been said.

I do not accept that our Constitution is such a problem to everything because I do not think therapy notes were in any way ever considered. As I have said, up until this week, a ban on evictions was unconstitutional. It was done during the pandemic and now it can be extended in rent pressure zones. I want to give an example. Jacqueline, the sister of Clodagh Hawe, has written a book. In this book she writes about her sister and her nephews, who were the victims of the most heinous crime. According to her, a priest had a lot of information about the crime because he had had private conversations with the perpetrator. That priest was never compelled by anyone, any court, any garda or whoever, to disclose that information. Never; which was very upsetting for the family. That is not unconstitutional but somebody's private therapy notes are. By the way, they are third-party so how are they relevant? There are so many ways that, if the Minister and the Government had any political will, they could make this be ruled out of order. The priest is grand and he will be left at it but the victim of a crime has to give full disclosure.

This is extremely disappointing. There is a shameful record in this country of dealing with gender-based violence. I know the Minister of State spent a lot of the speech outlining all of the great things he says the Government has done but when we boil it down people still have to wait years for a trial.

They then have to run the gauntlet of victim-blaming. They do not have their own independent representation. Character references and all sorts can be wheeled up, all of which are completely traumatising. We have just seen this week how this State has not taken violence against women seriously, even in how it looks for missing women. That has to never happen again, that women are missing for 30 years and that a disappearance is then upgraded to a murder trial. The record in this country of dealing with women, from mother and baby homes to institutions and through victim-blaming in courts has been horrendous.

The chair of the justice committee has appealed to the Government to allow this to go forward in order that we can bring the therapists in and hear what they have to say, as opposed to having them caged behind the glass of the Public Gallery. We should question them and listen to their experience of having to operate under this law. We should bring in survivors and organisations who have views. We should bring in the Judiciary as well. I would be very interested in hearing why it thinks this is so necessary to maintain.

Let this Bill go forward. Let it go to Committee Stage. The justice committee is only waiting to act on this. If the Government does not let the Bill proceed, is it planning any legislation at all regarding gender-based violence? It does not seem to be a priority whatsoever. The Government's attitude is pedestrian. It is extremely disappointing that people have had to campaign and campaign. Any survivor with whom I have spoken and has heard this Bill is blocked is shocked. They are absolutely and utterly shocked and very disappointed. Even if they accepted that there were issues with it, they would have thought it would have gone forward and moved to the next Stage, where those things can be addressed.

I thank all the people who have come here from around the country. Keep lobbying your TDs all week to not accept this. Let people vote and have a free vote on a matter of conscience. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael TDs stood in this Chamber a year ago after survivors testified and said that this should be outlawed - we know they agree with what I am saying. Please keep the pressure on TDs until we get change. We will fight to ensure that no person has to go through this misogyny in our courts system ever again.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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In accordance with Standing Order 85(2), the division is postponed until the weekly division time next week.