Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)

I welcome our guests in the Gallery. I know that some of them have spoken out publicly about this. Sometimes, that is not very easy to do. I welcome the fact that they are here. Hopefully, with their support and that of others we can get legislation in place. I hope it is this Bill. I hope we do not have to wait for 12 months or two years or any longer, because this is overdue. I thank Deputy Coppinger for bringing forward the Criminal Law (Prohibition of the Disclosure of Counselling Records) Bill 2025. The Bill is very welcome and way overdue because of the sheer number of serious cases of rape and murder that are being prosecuted through the courts. We have had the Satchwell case in recent weeks. Today we have new steps being taken with the investigation into the case of Annie McCarrick. We know of other cases of missing persons, such as JoJo Dullard. Numerous people over the years have been raped and murdered. We need to start getting to grips with it as a society.

As the previous speaker said, this is about righting a wrong. These people, mainly women, go through a trauma and then they go through a trial. Victims have told me how difficult that was for them, with the adversarial nature of it. The courtroom is a very adversarial place. Some Members of the House are lawyers. I am not but I have witnessed some court cases. It is a very adversarial place to be and can be very difficult, particularly around sensitive issues like this, with abuse or rape.

There were victims of abuse in institutions, including a lot of young men. We have had the awful rape of and violence against women. A lot of that has happened within marriage, partnerships and what is termed the family home.

When this was first discussed in recent years, in my innocence as a layperson I could not believe counselling notes would be dragged up in court and a person humiliated and traumatised. It is shocking. I could not understand and fathom it.

I have been contacted by women and a couple of men who have asked me to support the Bill. Some have told me their stories, which are shocking. One young man, who I will call Damien, is an alleged victim of serious sexual abuse as a child. He went for counselling, which helped him. In many cases, counselling prevents people from engaging in self-harm or ending their lives. The case involving him and others will come to court in the next year or two. The thought of the counselling notes being read out in court is shocking. It is absolutely terrible.

We cannot have counselling without confidentiality. That is the only way it can happen. We are retraumatising victims through the disclosure of counselling notes during the trial process. Counselling has to be a safe space, but once notes are disclosed, that is compromised. People will either not go to counselling or will not disclose everything. That is a fact. I certainly would not. If I were a victim, I would not go near counselling if I thought my counselling notes would be used in court. It is absolutely shocking. The disclosure of counselling notes or records completely undermines the whole basis of the process and can only be used to browbeat victims in court. I see defence in court doing that. The importance of the privacy of counselling for recovery and saving lives cannot be overstated. Anything else will deter victims.

The Minister of State said the Office of the Attorney General pointed out there is a constitutional right to a trial in due course of law and there is a duty on the prosecution to ensure the appropriate disclosures take place. This is not an appropriate disclosure. I would like to see that tested in court. I do not think any sane person could argue in favour of that. I would like to see somebody put forward the argument that this is an appropriate disclosure. What is appropriate about disclosing counselling notes? These are the victim's notes and the trial is about the perpetrator being on trial, not about the victim being on trial. I would like that tested in a court of law.

The previous Minister, the Minister for Education and Youth, Deputy McEntee, promised, as I recall, to right this wrong. That has not happened. A lot of progress has been made. Legislation has been passed to give protection to victims. As I said, victims are predominantly women. For example, Coco's Law contains serious penalties, and rightly so, for anybody who thinks of sharing what could be classed as intimate images. It is mainly men who do it, but women may also do it. That law is important and I welcome that we now have it in place.

As I said, the previous Minister said she would address this. It is in the programme for Government. The Minister of State has said the Government wants to delay the Bill for a year. What is wrong with letting it go to Committee Stage, where it can be amended, and trusting the House to fix it, along with the parliamentary legal team, the Office of Parliamentary Legal Advisers? What is to stop us from doing that?. This is an excuse to bat this back.

The Government needs to be more open. The Government often asks the Opposition for our solutions. Here is a solution being put forward to right a wrong, as was said earlier. The Government should be more open. We need to get away from the belief that, because something is not a Government Bill, the Government will not support it. Sometimes the Government brings forward stuff that is positive and the Opposition supports it. It needs to work both ways. I hope we can have a speedy passage of legislation to deal with this.

On gender-based and domestic violence, the Minister of State mentioned that one of the key priorities of the Government is guaranteeing safe refuge and accommodation in every region in the country. He referred to zero tolerance. I agree with him. I do not think anybody would disagree with him. I live in a county where there is no refuge. I did not have as many grey hairs on my head when I first started talking about this issue. I have lost count of the number of Ministers I have raised this with. We need refuges in the nine counties that do not have them. In my county, Laois, people who are victims of domestic violence and their children have to be shipped off 60, 70 or 80 miles to Longford, Limerick or somewhere, in many cases, which is scandalous. They are away from their families and children are away from school. They are away from their GP and family support. We cannot continue doing this. We have to able to do things more quickly.

We have to go through a lot of jigs and reels to get anything moving. It is like moving a glacier and is the one thing that is frustrating in this country. I realise we have to do things right and I am not talking about doing things in a slapdash manner, but it takes significant time to move things. It is like rolling a huge stone up the top of the hill and, every time you are nearly at the top, the stone pushes you halfway back down and you have to start all over again. Those centres need to be in place. I ask the Minister of State to bring this matter back to Government. The Cabinet needs to fast-track refuge provision.

I have spoken to the county council about a refuge. Councillor Caroline Dwane Stanley has raised this issue consistently at county council level. We need to get this moving. In the case of Laois, a site has been selected and, as far as I know, the money has been approved. We need to get things moving. Heads need to be knocked together.

We cannot have victims of abuse being shipped off with their young children, in many cases 60, 70 or 80 miles away from everything. It makes life worse for them. Not having anywhere to go stops people from leaving abusive situations. Sometimes people go back to a situation. I saw that happen with somebody in my extended family, a second cousin, who kept returning and we could not understand why. I understand now because it was the 1970s and there was nowhere for the person to go. It is now 2025 and we still do not have refuges. We need to fix that.

Let the Bill go through, amend it on Committee Stage and get on with getting the legislation in place. We should give this priority. The promissory note was passed here one night when we sat until, I recall, 5 o'clock in the morning to bail out the banks. Bailing out the banks might have been important, but this is more important in terms of sorting out people's lives and helping them.

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