Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South-West, Fianna Fail)

I thank Deputy Coppinger once again for raising this important issue and all Members of the House who contributed to the discussion. I assure Deputies that I have listened very carefully to their contributions and will convey their views to the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan.

Violence against women is an epidemic in our society. We are all aware of the chilling statistics. One in every two women has experienced sexual violence, according to the 2022 sexual violence study by the CSO. These crimes are pervasive and under-reported and demand a societal response. I empathise with the aims of the Private Members' Bill. Those who seek counselling after a sexual violation are seeking healing and a safe space to recover from their trauma. Criminal trials are difficult for victims, and the use of their personal counselling notes in such trials can be extremely distressing. This Government is determined to create a victim-centred justice system where survivors can feel safe and supported throughout the process.

However, a blanket ban on the use of counselling notes is not the solution. Banning the disclosure of counselling records entirely would mean challenges to convictions. Convictions would be overturned if the courts were to find the accused's right to a fair trial had been compromised. The Attorney General has advised that the proposal is unlikely to survive constitutional challenge. All of this would undermine the interests of the victims.

It is for this reason the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, intends to press forward with targeted amendments to section 19A. These amendments would be brought before the House in due course for discussion with Members. It it is for this reason the Government is putting forward the timed amendment which I moved earlier.

This will allow the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, to consider and bring forward provisions relating to counselling records. As I have already outlined, these provisions will ensure that counselling notes are only used in criminal trials where this is absolutely necessary. This will balance the right of the victim to privacy with the right of the accused to a fair trial. It is a difficult but necessary balancing of rights, which we are called upon as legislators to undertake.

I did not do so earlier, and I want to acknowledge those in the Gallery who are sitting above me. They include counsellors, professionals and survivors. I want to say to them that we do not make this amendment lightly. I know there are survivors here who clearly have met with many Deputies and shared their experiences. There are also counsellors. What is clearly coming across from the debate today is that there is a fear that counsellors will not be able to do their job in an effective way if this practice continues. This is why the Minister is looking at a method and a way to address this.

I thank the Members for their contributions. They were very heartfelt and informative. Because of their discussions with survivors, they have outlined the stress and trauma they feel, especially when the perpetrator has an opportunity to go through their deepest thoughts in the counselling notes. That must be absolutely chilling for survivors. Deputy Cronin mentioned the safe space that survivors should find themselves in when they go to these counselling sessions and how effective they can be. Obviously, this element of our law creates difficulty with regard to the session being the safe space that it should be. I appreciate this. Deputy Stanley made a point on the provision of refuges nationwide. His is not the only county, I would imagine, with the experience he outlined but the intention is absolutely there to ensure there are refuges throughout the country.

This particular Bill has been deemed challenging from a constitutional point of view. I want to read from my script because this is not dismissing it, it is the Minister taking the advice of the Attorney General, which is something he is compelled to do. It states, "The Attorney General’s Office advises that this Bill creates an absolute carve-out for counselling records which almost inevitably breaches Article 38.1". We speak about letting it go to Committee Stage for amendments. The Bill carves out counselling, which is deemed unconstitutional.

I want Members and those in the Gallery to know that the Minister and the Department are dedicated to trying to resolve this issue. I know the Minister has met some survivor organisations and absolutely intends to meet more. This will be the case. I appreciate the comments from Members in particular and the feedback, and I will feed that back to the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan.

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