Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Before the adjournment of this debate, I welcomed this Bill and complimented the gardaí. I spoke about the success of setting up the Garda Síochána and the successful policing operations the body has carried out. I now wish to mention some the difficulties the Garda Síochána experiences. There is often a lack of direction and management in how the gardaí operate and how they acquire access to resources. In Mullingar, the Garda was short a number of squad cars and some gardaí had to use their own cars to do their jobs. This is a ridiculous way to do business.

In the last few days, a garda in the community, who has teenage children himself, raised a query with me to which he is unable to get a response. We are now approaching the period where debs balls are taking place around the country. Schoolchildren attend these events and they are generally very successful. With the introduction of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2003, children under 18 are no longer allowed to be on a licensed premises after 9 p.m. What is the status of debs balls that take place in licensed premises? The people attending these events can often be as young as 15 and only a small proportion of them are over 18. Yet in most cases, the bars are open. How stands the legality of this issue? It is imperative that the Minister clarifies the issue so well-meaning gardaí, who want what is best for our communities, do not get caught off-side when intervening.

Members will recall that deportation orders were applied to mainly Nigerian citizens in this country, many of whom had lived here for quite some time. There were two ladies in my constituency who lived in Athlone. They were deported even though their children had been in school in Athlone for quite some time. They had integrated into the community and there was a great deal of local support for them to remain there. I emphasise that this does not concern the activities of the local Garda force, but rather the gardaí from the national immigration bureau who swept into Athlone to do their job. I wish to quote from a letter from Mr. Noel Casey, the deputy principal of Our Lady's Bower secondary school in Athlone. I know Mr. Casey who is an extremely dedicated teacher and does his job in an exemplary fashion. His letter outlines the events that occurred recently in that girls' school. It states:

At approximately 4 p.m. I was supervising evening study in the central area [of the school]. I saw a lady stride purposefully into the school followed by a uniformed female Garda who had a very distressed Ms Odunsi [she was the lady who was to be deported], Ayo's mother, by the arm [this was not a grip of support but of restraint, the Garda never let go of Ms Odunsi's arm while they were in the school. I knew who these people were so I left the study area to talk to them. They had turned into the school office and as I entered the area I heard the plain clothes officer loudly look for Ayo [who was one of the students]. I informed this lady that I had sent Ayo home at 3.30 p.m. This lady then motioned me to one side and asked me where Ayo was, I told her again that I had sent Ayo home. The officer seemed to become angry with this response and she demanded an explanation. I informed her that school ends at 3.30 p.m. and that I had no direction from anybody to do anything different. The officer again demanded information on Ayo's whereabouts so I called to Mariann Oviawe [another Nigerian] who was standing nearby to give whatever information she had regarding Ayo. Mariann simply stated that Ayo had gone home. The officer aggressively demanded Mariann's name and seemed to imply some sort of threat against her if she did not give any more information. Mariann insisted that as far as she knew Ayo had gone home. She did not know where Ayo was. The officer then turned on her heel and stormed out of the school. The uniformed Garda took Ayo's mother out to their car.

In her time at the school the plain clothes officer failed to show any ID, she never identified herself, she never stated her business. She did behave in an aggressive and threatening manner. Ms Odunsi attempted to talk to me and this officer aggressively told her to be quiet and not to be foolish.

This entire incident was witnessed by approximately 100 students who were in the study and the students who were waiting for lifts and buses by the school door. A number of staff members were also present.

That incident happened in a secondary school in County Westmeath. The Garda in question did not identify herself, although I presume she was a Garda, but would only say that she was going about her duty, which was perhaps a difficult one. Surely, however, there are better ways and means of doing one's work. Over the years the Garda Síochána has built up a rapport with the public whose trust and friendship they have earned. Such activities as outlined the letter are not the way to assure local people that everybody will be treated humanely. It is outrageous that this activity took place. The school in question has a particularly good relationship with local gardaí but the gardaí involved in this case had come from out of town.

Turning to other provisions of the Bill, I welcome the facility to establish local policing committees in consultation and association with local authorities. Like many other Members of the House, I welcome the establishment of such bodies. Public representatives and others have a big role to play in such committees because major difficulties are emerging on housing estates. Even in my own town of Mullingar, gardaí are reluctant to enter some estates at night-time due to difficulties they may encounter there. Late at night, the clientele of various nightclubs spill out on to the streets at the same time. Thousands of young people may congregate on the streets, which makes for difficult policing. Community endeavour is required to seek solutions to ease the situation and make life safer not just for the Garda Síochána but for the local communities. Establishment of local policing bodies will help to achieve that.

I agree with other speakers who have said membership of such bodies should not be confined to public representatives. For example, residents' associations comprising fair-minded people with inside knowledge, could have a good input into such committees. They should form part of the selection process for local policing committees. We should not confine the membership entirely to local elected representatives, but should try to make the composition of the committees as broadly based as possible.

We should also carefully examine the way in which such committees will carry out their work. I have an open mind as to whether this work should be done in public or private. If it takes place in public session there will not be the kind of exchange of ideas, including frank discussions, that might be necessary to make such bodies work well. Perhaps there is a case to be made for such bodies to meet in private but issue an agreed concluding statement.

I wanted to refer to other items but unfortunately time has caught up with me. I thank you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, for having allowed me to contribute to this debate.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I am glad of the opportunity to speak on this important, albeit long awaited and delayed, Bill. A prominent member of the SDLP described the Good Friday Agreement as "Sunningdale for slow learners". Slowly, the Government has accepted the requirement for reforms mirrored in this legislation. The issue of policing is an extremely important one for any civilised society. The police force is the bulwark for any community in order to maintain an ordered society governed by the rule of law. We seek such a society where citizens can avail of rights while exercising their duties and responsibilities, where disputes are arbitrated upon by the courts, and where legislation is enforced by a focused police force acting within the law.

Our history is a good one in terms of policing and we are fortunate to have a force such as the Garda Síochána. Its members have steadfastly defended the State against a variety of threats, including protracted armed criminal subversion. In all too many cases, including one of which I am aware in my home town of Wexford, the ultimate sacrifice was required. Members of the Garda Síochána have literally laid down their lives to protect this State, our Constitution and our laws. Therefore, in conducting a debate on the Garda Síochána it is incumbent upon us — and I want to be open and honest in my analysis, in a warts-and-all manner — to place on the record of the House a clear acknowledgment of the debt that both the State and its people have to the Garda Síochána. No less than any other institution of the State, the Garda Síochána has been evolving and developing just as the State has been doing. During Question Time we discussed many of the pressure points of changes in ethnicity, population base and structure and disposition of population. All these matters impinge on the nature of policing, the training for it and the quality of the individuals we call to police us. They are important, and the structures put in place in the mid-1920s if unmodified, cannot be expected to be appropriate for today.

The Garda Síochána needs to be reviewed in terms of its changing role, structure and an increasing demand across all sectors of public administration and public life for transparency and accountability. There are Members of this House for whom the mention of transparency and accountability makes their hair stand on end because they are over-used and hackneyed words. However, all other elements of public administration, including politicians such as ourselves in this House, have had to face the need for reform. We have done so in a variety of legislative measures we put in place to impact on our conduct, such as the electoral Acts, beginning with the Electoral Act 1997, which I had the privilege of introducing in this House. For the first time, this brought transparency in donation statements, requirements for declarations of Members of the House and it capped election expenditure so there would at least be a transparent mechanism for the conduct of political business. That was mirrored by the Ethics in Public Offices Act and the Freedom of Information Act, both additional groundbreaking enactments which introduced changes for political activity.

We have seen other legislation impacting on the business community as business scandals showed the need for change in banking. God knows there have been enough banking scandals to show that we needed to tighten our company law and strengthen the entitlements of individuals who do business with banks. That has been achieved through the appointment of IFSRA and other regulatory authorities. The public service too has been transformed through the strategic management initiative and others enactments such as the Ethics in Public Offices Act which impacted on senior public servants as well as on politicians. All of this characterised a wind of change blowing through public administration, and the Garda Síochána is not immune from the necessity of addressing that climate of change.

It was in that context that as justice spokesman several years ago I produced proposals for reforming legislation. I promulgated two separate pieces of legislation at the time — the Garda Síochána Authority Bill, which would have established an independent, transparent and publicly accountable authority to run and set the operation parameters for the Garda Síochána, and the Garda Ombudsman Bill, which would have established an independent monitoring system to process complaints about Garda activities. I said at the time that I did not pluck the details of those pieces of legislation from the sky. I relied heavily on the root and branch work done by the Patten commission in Northern Ireland, one of the most exhaustive analyses of what would constitute effective policing in a not entirely dissimilar jurisdiction. It contained very good models, ideas and proposals which could be replicated in this jurisdiction. It is interesting that the response of the then Minister for Justice, the current Minister's predecessor, was one of scorn and dismissal. That was the original reaction I got to the proposals I outlined. According to the then Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, there was no need for any structural reform.

I welcome this slow evolution, away from downright opposition to the acknowledgment for the need for reform and the inclusion in the legislation of many of the provisions I set out a few years ago. It is a pity is has taken so long because the country and the Garda Síochána would have been better served had the legislation been enacted when I proposed it. Once this Bill is enacted, what will go on the Statute Book will not be very dissimilar to the proposals I put forward.

I have noted the general importance of policing and the debt of gratitude we have as a State to the competence, professionalism and skill of the Garda Síochána over the decades in the face of a genuine threat to the survival of our constitutional democracy. I need to mention the downside because the context of all the proposals I put forward was the backdrop of the information I received regarding the activities of certain gardaí in Donegal. At the time, there was a blanket refusal by the then Minister to have an inquiry into those matters. Unfortunately, that refusal lasted too long and it was quite some time before it was proven beyond doubt that an investigation was required, and the Morris tribunal was established.

I do not want to digress from the contents of the Bill, but the Morris tribunal reveals an extraordinary set of circumstances whereby the principals at the heart of the investigation being carried out by Mr. Justice Morris, the extended McBrearty family and associates, have not had their legal fees guaranteed in advance, so that they are precluded from feeling that they can participate fully in the inquiry. I hope the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will address this extraordinary and unjust set of circumstances and I understand he will meet the McBrearty family this week.

We will have further debate on that matter in due course and I will not dwell on it today. There are other matters, such as the Abbeylara incident, which this House originally sought to investigate. Unfortunately, because of legal decisions, that matter is the subject of a further tribunal. Other disturbing cases include the investigation into the tragic Grangegorman murders in which two women were stabbed to death in March 1997. A suspect, Dean Lyons, was first questioned in July 1997, in a session which was electronically recorded. The recording indicates a person who was incoherent and lacked the ability to express himself properly. The man was clearly a heroin addict. Subsequently, however, he made a written statement to gardaí in the Bridewell that was lucid and clear and which contained key information relating to the murders which could have been known only to the investigating gardaí and the murderer. Clearly, Dean Lyons could not have committed the murders. That has now been acknowledged and an apology has issued, many years after the event. I raised the issue at the time.

Other cases include that taken against Colm Murphy with regard to the Omagh bombing of 1998. In that case, the court criticised two Garda witnesses. The judge said the two named gardaí had been involved in persistently lying under oath. The Paul Ward case is another, and there are more cases I will not list, but I note all these as a backdrop for the requirement for reform.

I said that I used as my template the Patten proposals because they merited being taken seriously and were a good template to replicate in this jurisdiction. The methodology used by Patten was outlined by my colleague Deputy Costello in some detail. It was an exhaustive, consultative process that looked at effective policing in a jurisdiction not 1,000 miles removed from ours and which clearly had lessons to teach us. The principle enunciated in the Patten Commission report was simple, but important: "Every member of the force must remember that his duty is to protect and help members of the public, no less than to apprehend guilty persons." It is important that the duty is to protect and help the public and not simply, although an important part of the job, to apprehend the guilty.

I will mention some details of the Labour Party proposals I had the privilege to produce some years ago. One proposal was the establishment of a Garda authority. This remains a good proposal because it gives a democratic, overarching ownership of policing, which is important in a democracy. It makes policing part of and accountable to the community, not an extraneous force or part of some authoritarian regime separate from the community. A Garda authority is an extremely good mechanism to give that clear manifestation.

A second proposal was the establishment, on the Northern Ireland model, of a Garda ombudsman. During my discussions I met the Northern Ireland Police Ombudsman, Nuala O'Loan, and she came to Dublin and met other Members on the matter of fleshing out our proposals. She has been a remarkable champion of justice and vindicator of good policing and has proven the robustness of the Northern Ireland model. It surprises me that after such a clear manifestation that it is the right model, we did not replicate it. The Minister has determined otherwise and I will deal with his proposals shortly. I also met the chairperson and the deputy chairperson of the Northern Ireland policing board to get the flavour of how they saw policing evolving.

The Minister's proposal with regard to an ombudsman proposes to establish an ombudsman commission rather than an individual ombudsman. I will not quibble with the Minister's proposal, but it is surprising that a manifestly effective proposal in place in Northern Ireland was not replicated. I hope the Minister's proposal for a commission is not different for the sake of being different or not accepting a proposal put forward by the Labour Party some years ago. The yardstick and test of it will be whether it is an effective investigative mechanism that will allow thorough and fair investigation and have separate preservation and control of evidence and freedom of action. The proof of that will be apparent as the proposals come into effect.

Another proposal in the Labour Party document of the time was a proposal for a police liaison committee modelled on the strategic policy committees — I had just left the then Department of the Environment — to involve elements of the community in discussing policing. Everybody knows that policing is a community issue. I thought then and still believe the SPC model would be a good one. That proposal has evolved in the Minister's proposals for joint policing committees. They are welcome and I hope they will be equally effective.

The challenges facing the Garda Síochána occur at two levels. There is a national challenge of criminal gangs which were effectively dealt with after a period with the establishment of the Criminal Assets Bureau. Some of the gangs operating were crushed, jailed or fled the jurisdiction. Unfortunately, they have been replaced by even more vicious thugs who, as we have seen in recent times, clearly have no regard for life and readily engage in violent murder. At local level, as the leader of the Labour Party has said repeatedly, the issue of anti-social behaviour is blighting neighbourhoods throughout the country. While mainly in the larger urban centres, anti-social behaviour occurs in every community.

We have some legislation to deal with anti-social behaviour. In our time in Government we brought in the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act to deal with anti-social behaviour in local authority housing. However, we need to go further as the real issue is not legislation. We have the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act and the Intoxicating Liquor Act which have a number of provisions yet to be introduced. It is the effective use of those powers by people who are plugged into their communities that is at the core of effective community policing. If that does not happen, if there are no gardaí who know the people and families in a neighbourhood and who can listen, hear, act and be there, and unless we reconnect with communities, policing will not be as effective as it could be. This is key for the new regimes. Will they reconnect with communities? Will we have designated gardaí to link with and stay in communities in the long term and physically to control the communities and be community gardaí who are friends of their communities, know them and act accordingly?

The issue of the Judiciary is important if we are to have effective policing. We need to revisit the issue of judicial conduct and training etc. This was dealt with by the previous Minister but he abandoned his proposal. We need to come back to it so that we can have judges who know the needs of communities and who will act appropriately and consistently.

We need proper recruitment to the Garda. I know an Irishman who was a commander in a police force elsewhere. He could not come back to Ireland unless he went to Templemore and started again. We need cross-fertilisation with good police from abroad who want to come and work in Ireland. The Minister should be open to that. We have a world class facility in Templemore, but not everybody needs to start at garda level. We must be open to some cross-fertilisation from good effective forces elsewhere.

Section 14 proposes volunteer gardaí. I would like to see this proposal fleshed out. I have no intrinsic opposition to it, but we need to see the detail to know if it is a proposition that will assist effective policing and the Garda rather than be a burden. I support the thrust of the measures in the Bill and wish it had come before the House some years ago.

Paddy McHugh (Galway East, Independent)
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I welcome the main provisions of this Bill, namely, the reform of the law relating to the administration and management of the Garda Síochána and, most importantly, the establishment of an independent Garda ombudsman commission. The setting up of this commission is welcome because there was a lack of confidence in the effectiveness of the Garda complaints board. That was no wonder because gardaí were investigating gardaí. Even if everything was fine and above board, the idea of gardaí investigating complaints against their colleagues was unsatisfactory. Not alone should justice be done, it should be seen to be done. The composition of the Garda complaints board, therefore, could not instil confidence in an increasingly suspicious public. These suspicions were fuelled by the revelations that emerged as a matter of course from the various tribunals. This section is welcome and the appointment of the personnel who will comprise the new commission is awaited.

Section 86, which provides for the referral of a complaint by the commission to the Garda Commissioner for investigation, is totally unacceptable because it completely undermines the establishment and independence of the proposed Garda commission. The Minister is reverting to that which he purports to change. The Garda is again being asked to investigate its own members. The Minister likes to give the impression a new independent investigation procedure is being introduced but unless the section is deleted, there will be no change.

The legislation also addresses the administration and management of the Garda, which is welcome, because many issues need to be dealt with such as the notion of returning to the old method of community policing. A number of intellectuals who know everything about everything and who have the remedies for all our ills may smirk at this notion but they do not know what they are talking about. The solution to problems such as anti-social behaviour, petty crime and intimidation of old and young citizens is to ensure more gardaí reside and are on the beat in local communities. They will have a relationship with locals to whom they can speak to obtain valuable information which can be acted on, resulting in much of the intimidation, petty crime and anti-social behaviour being stamped out and leading to a semblance of normality being returned to citizens who live in fear of young thugs. Community policing based on the old methods of policing is the solution.

A Garda Commissioner, Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform or Government who ignores the benefits of community policing does a disservice to the State. The Government made a commitment to recruit 2,000 additional gardaí before the previous general election, on which it has reneged. No amount of fudging can cover that up.

Michael Ahern (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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That is happening. The Deputy's statement is incorrect.

Paddy McHugh (Galway East, Independent)
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If the Government had not reneged on its promise, more gardaí would be on the beat and there would have been a reduction in petty crime, intimidation and anti-social behaviour. The blame for the continuation of these crimes lays firmly at the door of the Government due its failure to deliver on its promise. The additional gardaí have not been recruited and trained nor are they on the street. They cannot contribute to the enforcement of law and order because they have not been recruited as a result of the Government's failure to meet its commitment.

Michael Ahern (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is completely off the wall.

Paddy McHugh (Galway East, Independent)
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The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform could do the State a service by tackling this issue and delivering improvements to make the lives of people worth living again. The provision of extra, fully resourced gardaí is the solution, not the introduction of more legislation. Legislation is not a high priority for criminals and they do not generally consult the Statute Book to ensure their activities comply with the law. We have enough legislation but we do not have enough properly resourced gardaí.

Section 33 places a duty on local authorities. This is a waste of time because local authorities do not have the capacity or the capability to carry out the functions delegated to them. This is another example of the insertion of a feel-good provision in legislation. It makes everybody feel good but the provision is toothless and therefore useless. It gives the impression that the principle of subsidiarity is being employed, that the people are having their say and that the closest arm of Government to the people has an input into the delivery of law and order. This is a shambolic exercise. The provision has been inserted so that, in future, when the Minister for Justice is criticised for not addressing anti-social behaviour, he or she can point to this legislation and state local authorities have a say and it is out of his or her hands.

It is of no benefit to harassed citizens to see the current Minister pointing to legislation, quoting from the Statute Book and referring to previous Acts as his defence. Citizens want him to take effective action to rid the country of thugs. I have placed much emphasis on the need for extra community gardaí. However, the need is obvious to all except the Government. There is also an urgent need to address more serious crime. In the lead up to the murder of Veronica Guerin, criminals were in control in Dublin. They appeared like celebrities on national television, dressed up in silly clothes and giving the two fingers to the Garda and other law enforcers. Following the terrible murder of Veronica Guerin, swift, decisive and effective action was taken and resources were provided. The law was strengthened and the balance of effectiveness returned to the Garda. Unfortunately, however, we are quickly returning to the lawlessness which existed prior to the murder of Veronica Guerin.

Criminals in Dublin have the confidence to march into a bar with a machine gun, waltz through it looking for somebody who fortunately is not present, swagger out of the pub, threaten two uniformed members of the Garda and then ride off into the sunset. That is a regrettable commentary on law and order in our capital city but it is the reality under the Government. We are reverting to the days when the criminals were in control.

We do not want more legislation to deal with this issue. The criminals do not "do" legislation. We want more gardaí and better resources.

From time to time one could be forgiven for feeling that we do not need any gardaí at all to investigate crime and find out who the offenders are. Going by the statement of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, to the effect that he knows who is committing the crime, who are members of illegal organisations and so on, it seems that he makes his judgment simply and solely on the basis that he knows what he knows. Now we want a Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform who will talk, spill the beans, tell us who the law-breakers are and how he knows, thereby nailing them all once and for all.

Many people have been put on trial and convicted on the word of a senior garda on the basis of information available to him. However, it now appears that it is the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform who has all that pertinent information and not the gardaí. Perhaps it is time to enact one final Bill that would enable the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to take the stand to give evidence in court so that he might finger all the law-breakers in the land in exactly the way in which senior gardaí have done heretofore. One needs only the word of a high-ranking Minister, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, and the offender goes down. Imagine the savings to the Exchequer. There would be no protracted Garda investigations, no wasted expenditure taping Garda interviews, no forensic investigations — just a one-man crimebuster, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Section 39 of the Act, which imposes an obligation on the Garda Commissioner to supply criminal statistics to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, is a total waste of time, for several reasons. First, many members of the public have formed the view that it is fruitless to report certain incidents, and those crimes that are not reported are not put on the record that the Garda might supply to the Minister. Even that will be used to put the best complexion on the figures from the point of view of the Minister of the day. We are once again talking of statistics and damned lies. The Minister recently welcomed an 11% decrease in serious crime. It was not based on all the years since the Government came to office, since that would not have suited its purposes. Such a comparison would have produced the wrong answer from its point of view. Since 2000, serious crime has risen from approximately 73,000 crimes to approximately 96,000.

We need no more legislation but more gardaí on the street and a Government that honours its commitments to appoint such gardaí and equip them properly.

Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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We in Fine Gael want the Garda Síochána to be the best police force in the world. That statement was made here by our spokesperson, Deputy Jim O'Keeffe, some weeks ago when he was speaking on this Bill. As history shows, we were the party that set up the Garda Síochána, and we are very proud of that. We have always been very supportive, and we are often referred to as the law-and-order party, a brand and description of which I always feel very proud.

To ensure that we have the best police force in the world, it must be the best resourced, something that it is not. It must be the best trained, and training is now of a very professional nature and improving. It must also be the best motivated. Generally speaking, it is well motivated, but there are signs that people are becoming disillusioned and that young people, when they enter the force because it is their vocation and they have always wanted to be gardaí, are sometimes worn down by the back-up services, the resources and a feeling that they are operating in isolation and not receiving the right support from the Minister, the Department or this House, including representatives here. The force must also be well managed — the best managed in the world if we strive for that level of proficiency. It must be the best equipped, with cutting-edge technology and decent, modern accommodation and equipment. It is very important that we strive towards those objectives. The equipment that the Garda currently has is not adequate, and, having spoken to several gardaí in Kerry, I was quite amazed at their standard of equipment. I am sure the same is true of the rest of the country.

Having prepared notes for this evening and looked back over some research, I feel it is worth pointing out how the gardaí were set up and in what circumstances. This is the first legislation since the beginning of the State to address management and define the role of the various elements that make up the Garda Síochána. As we know, between the War of Independence in 1919 and the truce on 11 July, there was no law here, where there was war. Negotiations were entered into, culminating in the Anglo-Irish Treaty, which was signed on 6 December 1921 and ratified on 7 January 1922.

It is extraordinary that, on 9 February 1922, the inaugural meeting of the Garda Foundation Committee took place in the Gresham Hotel under the chairmanship of Michael Staines, who was the first Commissioner. If one examines the early history of the Garda Síochána, one can see what they went through to establish the force. It reminded me of Iraq. When the new regime there tried to set up a police force, the insurgents targeted it. That is why so many policemen in the new Iraq were slaughtered. When people queued up to be recruited, they targeted them. This country was no different, and we should not forget that. The young people who joined the Garda Síochána were targeted and viciously murdered. It is well worth remembering that, since it was only a little over 80 years ago. The first garda killed, on 8 November 1922, was Harry Phelan, from Mullinahone in County Tipperary. He was ruthlessly slaughtered on his way home after purchasing hurleys for a local team. In December 1923, Sergeant James Woods was murdered during an armed raid on the Garda station in Scartaglen, in my home county of Kerry. Garda Patrick Joseph O'Halloran was shot dead in 1924 in Baltinglass, in Deputy Timmins's home county of Wicklow, while attempting to arrest two armed bank raiders.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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He was a native of Gort.

Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)
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The killings I have mentioned continued and eventually culminated in the assassination of Kevin O'Higgins, who was the first Minister for Justice, while he was walking to Mass on 10 July 1927. The important decision that the Garda would be an unarmed force was taken following a training incident during the early days of the force, when a Garda recruit accidentally shot another Garda recruit. As I have said, the Garda Síochána was established in the Gresham Hotel in February 1922. During a speech he made in Dún Laoghaire on 29 October 1923, Kevin O'Higgins stated:

There are over 600 Civic Guard stations established to date out of a total establishment which provides for 800 stations. They have done and are doing splendid work in restoring order and stability in the country. Their discipline is of a high order and gaining experience from week to week they bid fair to become as fine a force as any country in the world can show. Great credit is due to General O'Duffy who in the most adverse circumstances built up such an admirable service for the people.

We should recognise today that the Garda has continued to make such a fine contribution since that time. We should remember those who lost their lives in the defence of this country and ensured that our freedoms are protected. Although there are exceptions, freedoms are protected and respected in this great country, generally speaking. There is a great deal of concern about the level of crime in certain areas, especially urban districts.

While I appreciate what the Bill before the House sets out to do, some gardaí are concerned that the Garda is subject to more scrutiny, redress and accountability than any other public body. If one puts in place too much regulation and bureaucracy, there is a danger that gardaí who are pursuing their duties, for example by investigating crime, will be more concerned with protecting themselves than with ensuring that perpetrators are punished, which should be their main goal. Gardaí need to know more than solicitors about the law and its enforcement. If they do not have such knowledge, they will be totally exposed by barristers when they appear in court. Matters become more complicated as cases are moved to higher levels of the justice system.

Gardaí sometimes become bogged down in bureaucracy and face increased levels of paperwork because of the need to ensure that they protect themselves by complying with all legal details. One does not see many gardaí on the streets because they are dealing with office work. Most gardaí of my acquaintance would prefer to be on the beat, walking through estates in their local areas, for example, but it is impossible for them to do so because they are so busy with paperwork. Gardaí were able to do the job expected of them in the past, when they did not have to deal with such high levels of paperwork and bureaucracy. They were free to police local communities, communicate with local people and offer the security that results from the presence of a garda.

Gardaí nowadays have to be very careful. They know they can easily be exposed if they make a mistake in their evidence. We should bear in mind that a garda can lose his or her job if he or she makes such an error. Trainee gardaí are told at the start of their careers they should ensure they stay out of trouble. If they have family responsibilities, for example, it is hard to blame them if they take an over-cautious approach. They meet the bureaucratic demands imposed on them because they do not want to get into trouble, and it is great if a prosecution results at the end of that process. We should be mindful of such considerations.

I would like to highlight some aspects of the Bill. I agree with the proposal to establish a Garda volunteer force, which was a Fine Gael policy during the last general election campaign. There is some confusion about the process of selecting and training people to serve on the volunteer force, however, because the relevant section of the Bill is vague and ambiguous. The Minister recently announced that the volunteer force will comprise approximately 1,400 members. Although they will not receive two years of training in the same way as mainstream gardaí, it is significant that they will have the same powers as full members of the force. I ask the official from the Minister's office to ensure that the Minister clarifies this aspect of the matter when he responds to the debate.

Given that mainstream gardaí who have received two years of training may have difficulties in interpreting a raft of legislation, what chance will volunteer officers have when they try to do the same? It is important that the Minister specifies the length of time that will be spent training the volunteer members. What type of training will they be given? Can the Minister give substantive details of the training? Such details are needed if people are to be confident that the volunteer force is effective. I favour the creation of a volunteer force, as I have said, but volunteer officers should not have the same powers as ordinary members of the Garda if they have not received the same training. Fine Gael strongly believes that volunteer members should not have the same powers as permanent members unless they undergo the exact same level of training. Only then will my party be satisfied that volunteer officers should have the same powers as mainstream gardaí.

I agree that local authorities should be involved in policing. It is important that the Garda works closely with local communities, as its members used to do before the demands of bureaucracy and office duties made it impossible for them to do so.

While I was researching this speech, I read a document about Robert Peel who was born in 1788 and died in 1850. He devised his well-known nine principles of policing while he was establishing the London Metropolitan Police in 1829. The seventh principle is that a police force should "maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen, in the interests of community welfare and existence".

I have always said we are all responsible citizens, that we are all police people. We have a duty to alert the Garda Síochána if we feel something is not right or if people break the law. It is impossible for the gardaí to police everything and that is why it is important that the public trusts the gardaí and communicates to them any suspicions about illegal activity. I hope that principle of Peel's, published nearly 200 years ago, can be put in place for local authorities. Sections 30 to 34 give a statutory basis for involvement of local authorities in policing matters for the first time. Interaction between local authorities and the gardaí is long overdue. It is a welcome step that my party advocated in its justice policy at the last election.

If communities are to experience long-term reductions in crime, local authorities must take on a dedicated oversight role in policing matters. Providing a forum for the gardaí and local authorities to exchange views and co-ordinate activities will result in real benefits to local communities. It will provide an opportunity for real interaction and bring back a sense of ownership to a public that is becoming disenchanted with the criminal justice system. The interaction between the gardaí and community should be brought to an even more local level, with fora including representatives from education, health boards and political parties. There is a worry that these local fora will simply become a way for politicians to influence the gardaí. It is important that there is distance between Garda enforcement, duties and policy and local policy on Garda numbers and problem areas. The involvement of local authorities, however, would be a welcome development. In England and the United States, local authorities have a much greater role in policing.

The ombudsman commission is welcome. Those gardaí who do their duty and are committed to their jobs should not fear this. The Garda Complaints Board has been the focus of criticism for some time and does not enjoy the confidence of the entire public. It is an easy target for those who want to attack the gardaí who say the board is the force investigating itself. I welcome, therefore, the decision to dissolve the board and opt for the ombudsman model that we have advocated for some time. The Minister should have opted for one ombudsman instead of the Dáil appointing three people. We should have looked at the model in Northern Ireland.

Every effort should be made to advance the Garda station in Castleisland. If we want an example of a local unit of the force being neglected, it is to be seen in Castleisland, where gardaí are being treated very poorly.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill. Deputy Deenihan mentioned Garda Patrick O'Halloran who was shot in my home town, Baltinglass, in 1924. Most people would never even realise that he had existed; nothing commemorates him. He was shot while following raiders after a bank robbery in the town. Perhaps we might commemorate him as part of the Wicklow 400th anniversary celebration.

Most people have welcomed this Bill but I am uneasy when more than one person does one job. The Minister might end up with bodies overlapping. There are merits to each area, such as a Garda inspectorate and ombudsman commission, and the Commissioner being more accountable, but I am uneasy about where the Commissioner will end up. Will he spend his time looking over his shoulder at all of these bodies keeping a watchful eye on him instead of doing his job? We all welcomed the establishment of the Eastern Regional Health Authority, thinking it would bring medical services to the people, but it turned out to be a fiasco. If I could reclaim the hours I spent on the telephone chasing Billy and Jack, I would have a great deal of valuable time on my hands.

The major shortcoming in the Bill is that it does not deal with accountability. We can produce crime statistics and extract any message we want from them. The present Government parties were great at this when they were in Opposition. At a time when crime figures were decreasing, they created the impression that they were increasing. We get the spin every time statistics are released now that headline crime is down but from what I see, crime has increased. I have tabled questions about my constituency that bear this out. In Blessington, in 2000 there were 120 crimes across all headings, with 40 detected. Last year there were 160 crimes with 40 detected. The detection rate had decreased by 30% while crime had increased by 30%. Until we can have uniform crime statistics published every month, where we can compare X in one month with X+Y or X-Y the following month, we will never have true accountability. The Commissioner could be brought in once the Bill is enacted and told that his performance had improved or declined. The Bill, however, has two aims: to deal with the administration and management of the Garda and to establish the ombudsman commission and the inspectorate.

I have great admiration for the Garda. When we talk about arms of the State, the Garda or the Defence Forces, we think in the abstract but all members of these bodies have families and suffer the same fears and anxieties as other members of the public. They have been trained to deal with situations but they are human with all that entails. They are not infallible. The vast majority do much good and are admired by everyone in society but as is the case in the areas of education, politics and the media, a small number of them let the side down. While those few bad apples must be dealt with in the most severe terms, it is unhealthy for us as a society to regard their behaviour as a reflection of the general well-being of a particular force.

We have heard reports of what happened in Donegal, where explosives were found on a farm, yet no one in headquarters asked why the farmer was never brought in for questioning. The mind boggles in that regard and the sooner we address those issues the better because they would shake one's confidence. By and large, however, I have found members of the Garda Síochána to be excellent. They uphold their jobs in the best tradition of the force.

Section 7 deals with various aspects, one of which is the security of the State. That is a difficult task for a Garda force and an area in which we do not provide sufficient resources in terms of properly securing the State. Apart from a certain intelligence gathering ability, there is very little the Garda can do protect the security of the State. There is very little the Defence Forces can do to deal with an outside threat.

Section 7 deals with preventing crime. During lunch time I visited the National Library, something I used to do before I entered politics — I have only done it on one occasion since I became a Member. I was reading some old newspapers and by chance I came across a report about the late Robert Briscoe, whom I assume is the father of the former Member, Ben Briscoe, who was speaking at a Fianna Fáil meeting in Bray in 1928. He complained that one could talk in the Dáil for three hours and not get three lines about it in the newspaper the following day. He may have been speaking in the context that he felt he did not have an arm of the media through which to vent his views, perhaps at a time before the Irish Press was established. Incidentally, another Deputy at the meeting complained about the state of the roads in west Wicklow, and that holds true today.

With regard to the prevention of crime, we could intervene at a very early stage in the area of education. I have articulated that view in the House for many years but it has fallen on deaf ears. I tabled parliamentary questions on it to the former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, because I got the impression that some civil servants had travelled abroad to examine the correlation between dyslexia and crime. Statistics are available to back that up. A Channel 4 documentary on a juvenile delinquent centre in Scotland indicated that the rate of dyslexia among the residents was in the region of 50% whereas the national average was between 4% and 8%. That is a problem we have done very little to address. Many people who are ostracised by society because they cannot fit into our education system strike back by carrying out violent acts.

Some evidence emerged recently from schools in Waterford where pupils had difficulties in certain mainstream schools. When they went to a school that recognised and dealt with those problems, however, the behaviour of those individuals, who now felt part of an inclusive society, improved dramatically. I ask the Minister to examine that area in conjunction with the Minister for Education and Science. My understanding is that until recently there was nothing on the primary education curriculum to assist teachers in identifying the condition of dyslexia. Until a few years ago, the individual was sent to the back of the classroom because it was deemed that their intelligence level was not very high, that they could not manage and that nothing could be done to assist them.

There is mention of road traffic offences in the Bill. This is an area that should be taken out of the control of the Garda. The possibility of setting up a road traffic force has been mooted. I ask the Minister to consider before Committee Stage whether it is advisable to enshrine in legislation the concept of gardaí dealing with road traffic offences. It is only part of their job. I often feel they just want to keep up the rate of summons. I am aware from speaking to some superintendents that gardaí go out on the busiest stretch of road and stop poor individuals like myself doing 37 mph in a 30 mph zone or the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, who was caught a few times by speed cameras, as he proudly admitted. It can happen to anyone. Some of the more serious traffic incidents are missed because gardaí are trying to reach their quota of summons issued.

Conor Lenihan (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with the Deputy on that matter.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Whether one breaks the law by one mile or 50 miles, one deserves the punishment that goes with the crime. Gardaí should not involve themselves in the administration of road traffic offences.

Section 9 deals with the appointment of the Garda Commissioner. It is often said on some of the popular chat shows that the Garda Commissioner should be appointed from outside the Garda Síochána. I would be very much opposed to that. That is akin to saying the Taoiseach should be appointed from outside politics. Political representatives are elected by the public. The best person for the job is someone from the Garda force. It is important that position remains within the remit of the Garda because a garda, through his or her involvement with the force over many years, attains certain skills which someone even from another security background could not match.

Section 14 deals with the volunteer force, a subject alluded to by previous speakers. While I welcome the principle I am concerned that the standing of the gardaí would be undermined by a force that may not have met the same training requirements but yet have the same powers. That area must be examined. If such a force had the same powers as the gardaí, what is the point in training the gardaí to a different level or vice versa? I would be wary of giving this force the same powers as the gardaí. There must be a demarcation line in terms of powers, otherwise some gardaí will be better trained than others and that will undermine the morale of the main force.

Section 15 deals with a form of attestation, the swearing of allegiance and a commitment by gardaí not to involve themselves in any political party or secret society. It is difficult to get people involved in political parties nowadays — I would not say there is a great demand for that but it is important that members of the Garda are impartial. They started off in very difficult circumstances, as outlined by my colleague, Deputy Deenihan, and they have rightly remained politically neutral, irrespective of the Government in power. They work to the best of their ability for the Minister for Justice of the day.

Section 16 deals with a code of ethics. Perhaps it is the way society has evolved, but I listened to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government talk about enshrining in the guidelines the need for planners to be courteous. There may be some basis for that. We can all argue individual cases but it is a sad day when we have to enshrine in codes of practice the need to be courteous to people. In terms of the gardaí, we can all relate our own bad experiences, but for every bad experience, we have had 100 good experiences.

Section 18 deals with civilian staff of the Garda Síochána. I note from the Disability Bill that the Garda Síochána is excluded from the requirement that 3% of the force be made up of people with disabilities. I hope the Minister will allow a certain number of people with disabilities to apply and be appointed to the various civilian positions. Perhaps that aspect should be addressed in the Disability Bill rather than this Bill — the Minister's official might take a note of it.

Sections 19 to 22, inclusive, deal with the concept of the Minister having an operational input into the Garda Síochána. One sees danger when one reads that. Is it right that a politician should direct the Garda Commissioner? The Minister is given stringent powers over the Commissioner. There are pros and cons. Many Members complain about the way politicians have handed over power to, say, Bord Fáilte, An Bord Pleanála and so on and that we should take responsibility for political actions. If the Minister is behaving in an improper manner and not in the best service of the people, there is a forum here for him to be dealt with and, ultimately, the public can deal with him. In the current scenario the Minister always retorts to parliamentary questions by saying he does not have operational responsibility. It may not, therefore, be a bad approach in the grand scheme of things. I hope Ministers for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will adopt a sensible approach, irrespective of who they are, which does not involve changing things radically. I do not mean we should never make changes, but change for its own sake or to make a mark can be dangerous.

Sections 21 and 29 deal with two hobby horses of mine, one of which involves the geographic areas of responsibility of the Garda. I assume Garda districts as currently established were created at the foundation of the State, a matter which must be addressed. I recommend change on a county basis, especially in the outlying areas outside Dublin. There are three or four superintendents with responsibility for different parts of County Wicklow which makes it very difficult to discover who is in charge. The public do not know who their local superintendent is unless it is in a rural area where he or she is long established. It is difficult to provide accountability in such circumstances. I hope the Commissioner will, with the approval of the Minister, consider redrawing the areas of operational responsibility of the various districts along county lines. Redrawn districts would be much more beneficial and would allow people to identify more readily the areas of responsibility.

Section 29 deals with the distribution of gardaí. In the Wicklow-Wexford area, there is approximately one garda for every 730 people whereas there is one for every 200 in Cork and one for every 300 in Dublin, despite the fact that the population is very tightly knit. The Commissioner must consider the redeployment of gardaí under the powers granted to him in section 29. As one does not like to uproot people with family ties in an area, and we refer regularly to involving gardaí in communities, graduates from Templemore should be placed in areas in which there is a low ratio of gardaí in the population.

If one examined the figures in detail, one would find a high ratio in Border areas, which proportion it may no longer be necessary to sustain. There are areas of rapidly increasing population in Meath, Kildare and Wicklow which have low garda numbers for purely historical reasons. That is an issue that must be addressed. Garda numbers in Greystones, Blessington and Enniskerry are low and there are some locations which do not have Garda stations. We must increase the Garda presence to allow people who come into communities to rest assured in their beds at night that there are adequate numbers of gardaí on the streets.

Section 26 deals with payment for services. I noted the recent claim by the Minister for Defence that banks will pay the Defence Forces for cash escorts in line with practice in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The section refers to the provision of services for concerts or functions at which it is deemed there may be a security or public order threat and at which large numbers may gather. I am slightly uneasy about the provisions. While it is populist to say the banks should be charged, and I like the sound of the proposal, I am concerned about the principle involved. Will it depend on the level of funding available to one whether one can purchase the services of an arm of the State? I would like to think that in a democratic republic the institutions of the State would protect any individual going about his or her routine business, be it social or otherwise.

While I do not say services have been abused to date, it is up to the State to create an environment in which one can carry out routine activities. Many of the events outlined in section 26 are routine and ordinary. Some business may be able to afford to pay for Garda services and act responsibly, but others may decide to take a chance. We may end up with a ministerial directive to the effect that anyone who holds a function which will be attended by more than 100 people, such as a wedding, must have a Garda presence. What if it is the second wedding of a divorcee? While the question is a little flippant, it illustrates the point I wish to make. Where will the line be drawn and how will such events be dealt with? While supporters at a football match between Kerry and Wexford are generally very compliant, those from other counties might not be.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Just within Wicklow perhaps.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That is to be borne in mind. There are always strong calls for gardaí to attend matches in Wicklow, but it is not something I would wish on any garda.

Séamus Pattison (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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The Deputy should conclude.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I have not even got to deal with the main elements of the Bill which are the inspectorate and the ombudsman. In section 31 the Minister appears to reverse the abolition of the dual mandate. It is perhaps sad that the Commissioner is required to establish a committee to liaise with the public to find out what they want. A local garda used always know what the public wanted.

I am delighted to see the inclusion of sections 41 and 42 which address the liability of members of the force. Very often members of the security forces have been left to paddle their own canoes when they have, rightly or wrongly, acted in the best interests of the State. I have seen people thrown to the wolves and left to defend their own corners. Having served with the United Nations, I welcome the recognition in the Bill of international duty. I found the gardaí stationed in Pyla and Nicosia in Cyprus to be excellent at all times.

I conclude by voicing my unease at the concept of having a Minister who directs a Commissioner who looks over one shoulder at the three-person ombudsman and over the other at the three-person inspectorate. It will be a little uncomfortable for a person who should operate without having to look anywhere.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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I welcome the Bill and the opportunity to speak on it. I refer to police numbers, crime rates, detection rates and anti-social activity in my constituency and the measures which must be applied to deal with the problems we face. The measures in the Bill may go some way towards doing so. The Labour Party spokesman, Deputy Costello, has dealt with the main thrust of the Bill and outlined the party's position on it.

My constituency encompasses the north-east corner of County Kildare, an area in which there has been a population explosion as a result of the massive zoning of land for residential development. Provision has not been made in the area for infrastructure and services at the level required for the greatly increased population. The geographically small area in question is served by three separate Garda divisions, which is a similar scenario to that outlined by Deputy Timmins. Leixlip is covered by the Dublin division, Kilcock by the Louth division and Naas and the rest of the county by the Carlow-Kildare division. The splintering of authority makes it virtually impossible to properly organise the police force to act in the public interest in the area.

There is no Garda station in Leixlip, the second largest town in the constituency, with a population of 18,000. While a station has been promised since 1997, not a brick has been laid on a brick in the past eight years. There is a clear need for a new Garda division to cover the densely populated north Kildare area and provide Garda services there with the organisational focus and manpower to tackle the many problems which are currently untouched. As a result of organisational mayhem and inadequate staffing, serious difficulties have developed. Crime has increased by 53% in the Carlow-Kildare division while the detection rate of 31% is the lowest in the State. On the basis of population figures for the area, a further 100 gardaí are required to bring the number of officers up to the inadequate national average. It is possible to address this problem under section 29 of the Bill. I wonder whether we need new legislation or simply increased numbers of gardaí who are properly organised and deployed to serve the community. The leader of the Labour Party recently commenced a debate on the issue of anti-social behaviour. It has been stressed by a number of speakers that this mainly occurs in large council estates. However, that is not true of my area as there are no large council estates. At least 90% of housing there consists of private estates. The same scourge of anti-social behaviour as described in large urban areas is just as prevalent in my area with the same negative effects on the quality of life of law-abiding citizens.

The form this activity takes is that public areas are colonised by young people aged between 15 and 20 years. They drink, play loud music, use loud, rough language and cause fear and annoyance to local law-abiding people. They effectively exclude others from using publicly provided facilities. We have several instances where pedestrian routes that were provided for the convenience of local residents have had to be closed permanently to put an end to the thuggery.

I attended a meeting last night about a lane known as the Grove Lane which serves a large private housing estate. The residents did not speak about getting the Garda to do anything about the issue. They had given up on the possibility of the force doing anything about it as the problem had been ongoing for 20 years. They wanted to know if the lane could be closed and taken into the adjoining private properties to exclude the thuggish element. That was the only solution they could see, even though it would be a major convenience for people living in the estate to access the main street.

In the private estate of Castletown in Celbridge where the residents' association sought action against the elements I have described, the chairman of the association was targeted. His car was repeatedly attacked, as was his house. The Garda was unable to assist. The man and his family had to sell up and move out. The young thugs won and now they know they are untouchable. They know there is no consequence of their actions despite that they were in breach of several different laws. The law is not being enforced. The Garda was not in a position to assist.

What do the parents of these young thugs think of their children's actions or do they think they have any responsibility for their control? I am certain they do not think so. I am convinced they do not give a damn. It is time for the law to ensure that parents should shoulder their responsibility, know what their offspring are up to, be required to take corrective action and carry the consequences if they do not do so.

It is important to state clearly that only a small minority of young people are involved in anti-social behaviour. Since they know there is no sanction and that they can get away with it, they make life miserable for a significant number of people and sometimes whole communities.

I am aware of the causes or reasons behind such behaviour which have been written about in many reports. Not only am I prepared to be tough on the causes of crime, I am also prepared to be tough on the criminals or law breakers. Old women living alone, community activists or a person who is singled out cannot wait for long-term solutions to changed behaviour patterns. They need the culprits dealt with today and tonight.

The Garda, as it is currently organised and deployed, is incapable of dealing with this scourge. We need many community gardaí patrolling housing estates and public areas. Token numbers for short periods is not a solution. Their presence and the intelligence they collect will be a major deterrent and will not require large numbers of young people to be locked up. Young vandals and thugs need to know there will be real sanctions if they transgress and that they will not get away with it. If it takes community orders, curfews or cleaning up the mess they made, so be it.

I wish to raise one other issue of regular public disorder which does not concern my area but is a national malaise. I refer to the pitched battles every weekend outside discos or nightclubs after they have closed. I am amazed that more people have not been killed. This occurs in every town where there is a nightclub. Gardaí do not appear to be present until the battles are over and then they pick up what is left behind. One man died last weekend from such an incident. There have been many serious injuries. I have seen such battles occur in towns in the west. It happens every weekend in every town in which there is a nightclub and nothing is done about it. There is a silence around this matter as if it did not occur. There are pitched battles on the streets of Ballinrobe, Ballyhaunis, Claremorris and so on. Mullingar was in the headlines last weekend. No action is taken. The various anti-drinking measures have had no effect on this dangerous and regular activity. Some people have been killed and many have been seriously injured in these weekly confrontations. Why are these nightclubs and discos, whose activities give rise to such behaviour, allowed to continue?

The Bill to reorganise the Garda is welcome. I repeat the oft-stated maxim that a police force cannot be effective if it does not have the confidence and support of the public. A great deal of work remains to be done in that regard. It would greatly help if gardaí always remembered they are the servants of the people.

Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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My colleague, Deputy Ó Snodaigh, stated Sinn Féin's view of the existing case for fundamental Garda reform and welcomed on behalf of our party the opportunity to comment on this long-overdue, if flawed, Garda reform legislation. Deputy Crowe addressed the need to replace the Minister's proposed ombudsman commission with a single Garda ombudsman with equal powers to that in the Six Counties in keeping with the Good Friday Agreement strand three commitments to equivalence in human rights protections between both jurisdictions. Deputy Ferris reviewed the shortcomings of the Minister's proposed Garda inspectorate in Part 5 of the Bill and argued the need to establish a policing board for civilian management oversight, also equivalent to that proposed for the Six Counties under the Patten reforms.

I propose to deal exclusively with the Minister's proposal to establish joint policing committees as set out in Part 2, Chapter 4, sections 30 to 34, which deals with co-operation with local authorities and arrangements for obtaining the views of the public. If we want the policing service in this State to rank among the best in the world, and why would we not, it is essential that it is made accountable to the local communities it serves and works in partnership with them. It is that simple. The Sinn Féin proposals for the establishment of community policing partnerships at district level are the fundamental linchpin in our Garda reform package. It is this element on which the objective of restoring confidence in the Garda will either succeed or fail.

I do not overstate the case. One can see from the extensive response from across the State to the recent call of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights for submissions on community policing and the similar response to the earlier Lord Mayor of Dublin's commission on crime. Our party was represented on that commission by the Sinn Féin councillor, Christy Burke, and Dublin Sinn Féin made its own submission. While not all our recommendations were adopted exactly as submitted, I welcome that Sinn Féin's influence is evident in the commission's conclusions.

Deputies on all sides of this House know too well the widespread concerns about street violence, drug-related crime and anti-social behaviour that is not criminal but disruptive. People feel vulnerable in their homes and communities. This is not right. Everyone should have an equal right to security and this should not be dependent on one's wealth or social status. People deserve to rely on the Garda for assistance and protection. However, the reality is that very many, particularly in working class housing estates, do not even bother to report now because they believe that help will not be forthcoming. That is an indictment of the present situation and this legislation must contribute to changing it. A significant lack of policing obtains in working class estates, particularly in my constituency. I negotiated with the local superintendent to try to have additional foot patrols rather than just a motorised presence in these areas. We had a measure of success for a short while, but unfortunately all of that ended. There is also a significant unacceptable response from the gardaí when they are called. For example, I have had many representations from constituents who phoned the Garda who complained that it took up to two hours for a garda to arrive. In some cases there were four or five hours of a delay and on a few occasions there was no response at all. That is most unacceptable. It is a problem that simply must be resolved.

I have an interesting example of a large public housing estate where there were Garda patrols for a short while. We were trying to negotiate with the superintendent to resolve some of the policing issues. In fairness, he responded somewhat in terms of sending people along to meetings of community groups and residents associations to try to discover the issues first-hand. Apparently, however, he did not stick with that, whether because of the manpower shortages, as he claims, or whatever. Let us contrast that scenario with a recent incident where some youths from the estate threw stones at motorists on a nearby roadway. The Garda response was swift and they offered a solution to the problem. They suggested that they would erect a large fence around this significant housing scheme of 800 houses. Is that collective internment? Is that Guantanamo Bay? Is that a proper solution in such circumstances? It is not. That is a ridiculous response, altogether.

Again, in a number of these housing estates there is the whole issue surrounding youths standing about drinking alcohol at corners or on the green areas. Now it is illegal to do that. Legislation and by-laws from the local authority are in place and yet the gardaí do not confiscate the drink from the youths. I can understand this when it gets late into the night because it would create a riot at that point. However, one patrol car earlier on in the late afternoon or early evening, with proper manpower to confiscate the drink from the youths at that stage, would obviate the need for four patrol cars coming out in the middle of the night to try to deal with the consequences of the binge drinking that had been going on all day. There is also an issue as regards shops being permitted to sell alcohol. In areas such as this not many shops sell alcohol and it is quite easy to identify them and to whom they are selling. Unfortunately, as well as the major social issue involving the shop owners, there is a policing issue, too, to be tackled.

Every village and town in the State knows only too well about the whole issue of drugs. In most of these communities we know who the drug dealers are. I do not expect the Garda to intern them but why do they not look for evidence? The public at large sees what is going on and a significant number of people are more than willing to co-operate with the Garda in terms of ending the scourge of drug dealing, particularly in large working class areas, and everywhere else as well. The problem is in every town and village and yet it is not being dealt with. My constituents regularly ask me "why?" Truthfully, I cannot tell them why there is not a far greater crackdown on that type of activity.

What is the best way to respond to this crisis in confidence to ensure that the security needs of communities are met and that the resources the taxpayer pays into the policing service are spent in a responsible and effective way? I submit that it is not the Minister's ill-conceived anti-social behaviour orders nor his proposed extension of Garda powers, but the proper, accountable use of existing powers and crime prevention through adequate social investment, appropriate deployment of Garda resources, and the fostering of local community co-operation on policing matters that will make a difference. Certainly the community is up for it. Above all, this must be founded on a relationship of accountability and mutual trust, established at the most basic level of all, the beat level.

Sinn Féin therefore recommends the establishment on a statutory basis of community policing partnerships, CPPs, at Garda district level throughout the State to increase Garda transparency, to promote community trust and co-operation, and to hold the gardaí fully to account to the people they serve. The relationship of accountability between district superintendent and such community-policing partnerships should be analogous to the relationship we propose between the Commissioner and policing board. In this way, the community-policing partnership would have a liaison role between the district commander and the local community, and thereby become a mechanism for both community accountability and co-operation.

We propose that each local authority should establish community-policing partnerships, one per policing district, as committees of the council, on the following basis. The local authority should elect their members. The nomination process should be transparent and based on published criteria. As with the proposed policing board, the final composition should be one third elected representatives — of a cross-party nature — one third representatives from local statutory agencies, and one third from the local community and voluntary sector. Each component group should comprise at least 50% women and, with a view to increasing diversity and representation, reflect as fully as possible the actual composition of the communities in the district in terms of class, ethnicity, etc.

There should be monthly public meetings between the community policing partnership and the district superintendent, at which he or she should present reports and answer questions. The CPP members in turn should have the opportunity and responsibility to reflect community concerns and priorities, and to make recommendations. There should also be a mechanism for members of the public to address questions to the superintendent at the public meetings, through the CPP chairperson. The superintendent should be required to take CPP views into account when formulating or implementing policing plans and strategies for the district.

It is crucial that these community policing partnerships are based on an equal partnership approach between police and community. Their powers should not be unnecessarily limited. Appointments to the partnerships must be open to all without discrimination. They should be obliged by law to meet in public. They should provide a forum for public consultation at district level on annual policing plans. To improve transparency and public confidence, the Garda should make all requested information available for public scrutiny unless the CPP agrees that it is clearly in the public interest — not just police interest — to withhold such information. There should also be a requirement on Garda command to give after-the-fact explanations for actions of gardaí. Each CPP should publish an annual report, including recommendations, to which the Garda Commissioner should be required to have due regard in the operational management of the service. The Minister should also be required to take notice of CPP recommendations in the formulation of policy for which he or she has responsibility.

While the local policing forums that have been piloted in some areas of Dublin are a welcome step, they do not provide the right model for community accountability as they are not based on equal partnership. Existing policing forums should be converted into the new community-policing partnerships.

I welcome the Minister's recognition by inclusion of the provisions at Part 2, Chapter 4 that there needs to be some level of local involvement in policing matters. I acknowledge that he seems to have taken several of our recommendations on board, although he has diluted them. However, while the Minister's proposals on enhanced co-operation between local authorities and the Garda represent an improvement on the present situation, they do not meet the same standards of transparency and local democratic control and accountability as the community policing partnerships Sinn Féin proposed. The newly proposed joint policing committees still do not get it right.

Section 31 gives the Minister ultimate discretion in the establishment and composition of the committees. It also gives him the ultimate say on when they will meet in public and in camera. Section 32 prevents them from considering specific investigations or matters of public security. There is no provision requiring the Garda Commissioner or the Minister to take account of their views and recommendations.

Section 34 confers on the Minister ultimate control over any arrangement for obtaining the views of the public on policing. It is not the right formula to establish the committees at local authority level, with the establishment of more local community policing fora only as an option. It remains too centralised. Local accountability and community co-operation mechanisms must coincide with the structures of the Garda Síochána which often bear no relation to the local electoral area. Likewise, the Sinn Féin Party rejects the division level as too distant to allow proper democratic control.

The Minister's proposed model has also been criticised by the Irish Human Rights Commission and the Irish Council for Civil Liberties. In their view the provisions of Part 2, Chapter 4 are too narrow in function and membership to put in place a community policing model. They argue the Bill does not allow for direct community input into policing priorities. Both have also complained that the committees proposed by the Minister will have no role in monitoring Garda performance or the protection of civil liberties. They point out that, whereas a proper community policing forum represents the community, the Bill only provides for local councillors to sit on the joint policing committees. The Irish Human Rights Commission has called for specific provisions on representation with the involvement of groups in communities with particular policing needs or which experience high levels of contact with the Garda. The commission has also called on the Minister to ensure these provisions are at least equivalent to those provided for in the Six Counties.

The Sinn Féin Party shares these concerns which will be addressed by our counter proposals. In view of the Minister's relative openness to strengthening his proposals for Garda reform, I hope he will accept our party's constructive amendments to strengthen the local democratic control and co-operation aspects of the proposed legislation. This will be necessary if our party is to support the Garda Síochána Bill.

Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Everything that could be possibly said about the Garda Síochána has been said since this Bill was published. However, it is a serious matter and there are several issues that I wish to raise. I have no problem with the main thrust of the Bill; in some matters I wanted the Minister to go further.

There are two fundamental issues important for the future of law and order in the State. The Garda Síochána earns the public's trust and respect. However, this can be a two-edged sword. Despite attempts by groups in society to fracture this trust, it remains to a large degree. Whatever the Garda does, it must always remember the most important ace in its hand is that the public trusts it and wants it in place on its behalf. However, if that trust and goodwill go, whether there are 12,000 or 20,000 members in the force, it will not be possible to run a democracy.

It is becoming the in thing to do down the Garda, a dangerous path for society to take. There is the serious matter of some parts of Dublin city, other cities and large towns, loosely described as no-go areas for the Garda. Irrespective of what it will take on the part of the Oireachtas, the Judiciary and local community groups, there is a thin blue line between those who want to get on with their work and believe in freedom and thugs and disturbers. If the thugs get half a chance, they will wreck community life. No other group can stand on that thin blue line other than the Garda Síochána.

Like other sections in society such as politicians and the clergy, the force has come under the microscope as peculiar events have happened within it. I have enough respect, belief and confidence in it that these will be overcome. I sincerely hope we will have a police force of which we all can be proud. For every bad apple in the Garda Síochána there is a barrel full of good ones. I know men and women who have dedicated their lives to the job, who held their heads high from the day they became a Garda recruit until the day they retired. It is unfair to draw general conclusions because of the ridiculous carry-on of a few members of the force, irrespective of rank. The community's trust in the police force must be worked on intensively to ensure the continuation of the bond of friendship and contract between both.

I agree with the Minister's proposal of a three person ombudsman commission. People argue academically whether it should be similar to the structure in place in Northern Ireland. It will, however, be much better than the existing Police Complaints Board. I do not have a dagger out for the board. I understand it did its best, working within its given remit. However, people quickly lose interest when police investigate police. I hope the proposed commission will be seen to be absolutely independent, without the slightest smell of collusion. The Minister has proposed various levels for the commission's remit, allowing for the difference between minor and other indiscretions. The Garda Commissioner will adjudicate on these matters. Society has come to the point where one has to define a small indiscretion. However, it must be remembered it could be a large indiscretion to the individual affected and every case, or at least the decision involved, should be vetted by the ombudsman's office before it is communicated to anybody. That stamp should be attached in order that it will be clear that it was independent.

On many occasions members of the public have not accepted the findings of the police complaints board. However, this is a two way street. There are occasions when pressure is put on the police force and it is aggravated to a degree where people hope it will respond. A couple of years ago I was leaving the House through the Kildare Street gate. Gardaí were lined up in riot gear. I forget what the demonstration was about but it was rowdy. I was standing behind the row of policemen. Two thugs, in the hope of starting a racket, spat through the vizor of a policeman's helmet. Imagine how degrading that is.

I have not received the relevant training but if I had been that policeman, the thug would not have spat at me a second time. However, if a policeman were to react in any way other than the way he is trained to do, there would be huge trouble. The public should understand gardaí are put under enormous pressure at such times. Of course, their training equips them to deal with this but nobody should forget that pressure. Where a garda, of whatever rank, steps out of line and breaks the rules, he or she should be brought to justice like every other citizen. However, there is another side to that coin. I sincerely hope, with regard to public order, that many of the thugs one sees in towns and cities will be brought to book. They are simply seeking trouble. It makes no difference to them who they hurt; they seem to get a kick out of creating trouble.

I wish to refer to community policing. I am a little confused about the number of gardaí in the force. According to the reply to a parliamentary question a few days ago, the number is 12,200 but the Taoiseach and the Minister tell us that there are 14,000 gardaí. Which figure is correct? I believe that while we might aspire to having 14,000 gardaí, the current number is 12,200. Regardless of what the number is, there are not enough gardaí doing the work they should be doing.

It is true I do not know what happens in Dublin city at night but I do know what happens in Galway and Limerick cities and, in particular, Ballinasloe, Tuam and even small towns such as Mountbellew, where I live. It is usually a quiet peaceful place. When the doors of the discos in these big towns are opened at 2.30 a.m. or 3 a.m., people flow out onto the street. They go down to the local chip shop and a fight develops. There might be 150 to 500 people there. How can one expect two or three gardaí in a patrol car to impose law and order when an ugly and intense fight breaks out? It would be the most unequal row of all time. One cannot expect the gardaí to win it. We must minimise the opportunities people have to congregate in that fashion. It is not a question of closing down the country. However, if a row must occur, there is a better chance of the police being there if it occurs earlier in the night.

There is a lack of manpower. Take, for example, a peaceful area such as east Galway. Nearly every town and village holds discos, although on a smaller scale than in the big cities. Consider the number of gardaí available at that hour of the night, taking account of the rostering system. There are four gardaí in Athenry but the four are not on duty at the same time. One cannot expect them to be. They are entitled to time off like everybody else. On occasion only one garda is on duty. How can one expect one person to be in control of a town such as Athenry, given all the events that can occur during the night after a disco? The Minister should think about this. The information he is getting from the Garda Commissioner must be informing him that the stations are short of staff.

When one tables a parliamentary question on this matter to the Minister — this also applies to his predecessor — the reply always states the Minister is informed by the Garda authorities that there are sufficient numbers for the job in hand. However, everybody in the country, including local gardaí, says there are not enough. How is it that the Minister, his predecessors and the Garda Commissioner have the same story? Is it that when one gets to a certain level, either in government or in the force, one believes the maxim that if the resources are better utilised, one can work with the existing numbers?

The Minister will say the crime figures are reducing and, thankfully, certain categories are. However, what about the loutish behaviour the Minister has referred to so often recently? I do not know the figures for such crime; I doubt anybody has correct figures because much of this crime is unreported. The time at which it is committed and the fact that so little is known about the perpetrators mean it is difficult to keep account of it. I believe its incidence is greatly increased. It must be nipped in the bud. A thug under 20 years of age who creates trouble on the main street of Ballinasloe and gets away with it is likely, if given a free rein, to become a major criminal by the time he is 30 years of age. By then he believes he is unstoppable.

That brings me to the concept of community policing. Every report I have seen on policing anywhere in the world reaches the same conclusion, that there must be community police. If a garda believes he or she can be in direct contact with the community when he or she spends all of his or her time either on a telephone in an office or inside a squad car, he or she is not making progress. It is that simple. It is as if politicians had no contact with anybody. The result is that one does not have elementary information. I know some community gardaí. They know almost everyone in the area and almost everything that is going on. In debates such as this during the years, some people tried to convince us that this is useless information, but it is not. The pup that creates trouble on the street in Ballinasloe, Tuam or Mountbellew and gets away with it is on to a good thing. This is where criminality starts if there is no deterrent. If we want to nip this in the bud, we must take this loutish behaviour very seriously. However we pay them, we want more police here.

There is Garda involvement with young people in the school warden schemes and other types of youth work. Some people suggest that such activity is Garda time badly spent. I have the opposite view. When I spoke about trust, I was referring to that wonderful connection that people have with people they can trust. There is no better time to develop trust than when people are young, have no preconceived ideas and take people at face value. There is nothing better than a policeman training school wardens for a couple of hours. I hope the youth programmes in which gardaí are involved will be maintained and intensified in the future.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I want to use the opportunity of speaking on this Bill to invite the Minister to revisit issues on urban crime and disorder, especially in the greater Dublin area and in my constituency of Dublin West. I have debated these issues with the Minister on a number of occasions. I know he has been learning and he may now know a bit more about anti-social behaviour in the community. Communities around the country, particularly in urban areas, are enduring a misery that is beyond belief. We often speak about the Celtic tiger and the welcome progress made economically since around 1993-94. However, for many people, the cancer of anti-social behaviour has destroyed the greater economic resources. The lack of community policing and a Garda patrolling service on the streets of cities, towns and villages is destroying the capacity of people to live wholesome lives.

This week, we had the culmination of a series of killings in Dublin, one of those in Dublin 15. There is a real sense of impunity among criminal gangs under this Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. One of the criminal perpetrators in the Ongar area could stand undisguised in a neighbourhood for a number hours stalking and waiting for the victim whom he then shot to death. The Minister held an earlier predecessor of his, the former Deputy Owen, personally responsible every time a post office was robbed. Killers are now walking the streets with guns, stalking their victims in broad daylight in an area in which thousands of young people have committed their life savings to purchase new homes. These are scenes we might have seen in "Gangs of New York". This is the type of policing and deterrence that the current Government has given us, in spite of the fact that it once promised zero tolerance. It is hardly bearable.

A report was published yesterday on the Tallaght area that was part of a larger study, the first part of which was published six months ago. I attended the presentation and I am not sure if anyone from the Progressive Democrats Party was present. There may have been members of the Garda present. The study listed the fears of young children, who are supposed to be growing up cherished by this society. They feared people with drugs and guns hanging around playgrounds and approaches from drug pushers in schoolyards. It also referred to the fears of these children as they listened to joy-riders at night on the streets of west Dublin. Some of these children have probably never spoken to a garda or met a garda in the school classroom. I agree completely with Deputy Connaughton. The presence of gardaí in the community is not a waste of time, as children can get to know the gardaí and begin to feel safe in their own community, as ought to be the case.

The experience of anti-social behaviour in our communities can be far worse than the experience of sectarianism, sexism or racism. Much anti-social behaviour also spirals into those areas. There is a crisis in Ireland with anti-social behaviour and the rule of impunity that currently seems to exist. Gun crime relates to anti-social behaviour because the criminal gangs that have easy access to guns are also the godfathers that have a disproportionate influence in working class housing estates. These godfathers can push drugs in housing estates partly because they have guns and because they are making so much money out of crime. They can walk with a swagger in areas ordinary people cannot as there is no visible community policing presence in the area.

I raised this issue with the Minister in November 2003. Has the Minister had an opportunity to revisit this issue? I spoke about the murder of a young man in a pub in Corduff. I spoke about a nurse who was car-jacked outside her own home in west Dublin. I also spoke of a new estate of affordable, social and private housing called Castlecurragh, where gangs of young kids terrorising people was making life very difficult for the residents. I then asked, in terms similar to those outlined by Deputy Connaughton, for serious community policing to become a critical aspect of our strategic approach to crime and harm reduction. In the course of that Adjournment debate, the Minister stated:

Now we have it. The Deputy is talking about gardaí on the beat. However, we are dealing with armed and homicidal gangs. The answer is not to put more gardaí wandering around estates in the Deputy's constituency. It is deluding the people. The Garda is doing a good job. It is doing its level best to combat all incidences of crime.

That debate took place on 4 November 2003. Because of the campaign I have waged in Dublin West, I am glad to state that when the Minister responded to me about two months ago he had assigned 20 new recruits from Templemore to the Dublin West area because of the problems encountered there. I commend gardaí in Dublin West, including the newly qualified recruits from Templemore, some of whom are probably terrified walking around some local authority estates in pairs. However, where they are visible, the community response is to feel more secure, even if only momentarily. Will the Minister give a commitment that such patrols will remain for at least three years, as recommended in the Patten report as it related to Northern Ireland? That is what is essential.

What is the point of having money in Celtic tiger Ireland if a young person buys a new car which is destroyed by thugs? What is the point of a young person starting a home and family if he or she has no peace of mind? What is the point of an elderly person living in an area if he or she is afraid to answer the door at night because thugs invade the front garden to sit, drink and perform various unspeakable actions? When someone telephones the Garda Síochána, there is no response. Neither can he or she obtain information on the response times for this type of criminality which is destroying the quality of people's lives.

Since that Adjournment debate, the Minister has had 18 months in which to come to terms with the fears stalking our society. The problems stemming from anti-social behaviour are particularly acute for those who live alone, lone female parents and their teenage daughters, the elderly, non-nationals and anyone considered by thugs to be different. The latter category could include ambitious children who are successful at school and go home with bags full of books because they are academic and studious. What we might celebrate as something wonderful for the child's education could lead to him or her being marked out for harassment and bullying by thugs in an estate. In addition, the family home might be set upon by such thugs.

The community garda is the Cinderella of the Garda Síochána. Such gardaí can easily be isolated, are viewed with a certain condescension by other colleagues, and seen as a ready source of surplus manpower to be deployed elsewhere when needed. For a long time people in Dublin West have been familiar with this phenomenon. If anything happens on the Border, our community gardaí vanish to attend such events.

Experience in other countries has more than amply demonstrated the importance of keeping a community or neighbourhood policing service separate from the routine of ordinary policing. While an arrest may well be a sign of success in the mainstream Garda service, in community policing it may be seen as an admission of failure because the role of community gardaí is to deter offenders and thus prevent offences from being committed in the first place. Therefore, a low arrest rate by community gardaí may not be reckoned to be a sign of success within Garda management systems as organised by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

The community policing service is the key to crime prevention and potentially a powerful tool in containing anti-social behaviour. What is needed is more effective training, longer assignments to the task — as set out in the Patten report — and a greater recognition of the importance of community policing. In addition, there should be greater recognition, for promotion purposes, of those community gardaí involved at the coalface. All these elements are essential if the community policing service is to get the recognition it deserves. Evidence in other jurisdictions shows that putting gardaí back into the community is the only serious way of tackling the epidemic of anti-social behaviour and related crime.

A handbook is required on community policing. The law relating to anti-social behaviour and the remedies available to its victims are complex and varied. There is an urgent need to bring together the legal processes open to the police and the public in the form of a handbook which could serve both as a guide for the Garda Síochána and an information base for citizens.

A reduction in response times and greater use of foot patrols would amount to an evident management strategy which would encourage people, many of whom consider reporting minor offences to be a waste of time, to relate more effectively to gardaí. It would also enable gardaí to improve their often inadequate knowledge of, and intelligence on, areas for which they are responsible.

Young people are commonly robbed of their mobile phones by little thuggish yobbos wearing hoodies. It is a traumatic experience for young people and terrifying for their parents because if such thugs were confronted, who knows what serious physical injury might be inflicted on their teenage victims? During the Minister's time in office we have seen murder cases in which teenagers were killed for their mobile phones. That is how bad the situation has become. The Minister must accept some responsibility for what has been happening.

During the past year I sent a young member of my own family to the Garda Síochána but they did not get a response. The Minister's predecessor talked about zero tolerance but I am talking about zero response. How can teenagers build a relationship with the Garda Síochána if when they report a mugging or robbery, they receive no response? This is dysfunctional management of policing by the Minister.

Garda performance criteria are skewed to encourage a focus on medium gravity crimes, including burglary and car theft — offences which yield primary and secondary clear-ups. The Garda practice of "cuffing and stuffing", the non-recording of certain calls for service and the over-recording of certain offences is largely driven by assessment criteria. A change of criteria is needed to include a focus on community offences which might be seen as less serious but which lead to the broken windows phenomenon and estates becoming no-go areas for the Garda Síochána and go-go areas for paramilitaries. Without community policing, one's friendly neighbourhood paramilitary is likely to offer to fill the gap. People like me are left at public meetings saying vigilantism is no answer, yet people's rage is so great that they will look for any remedy which appears to dispel some of the horror they experience.

I hope the Minister has learned a little more about the crisis confronting so many working-class communities and the abject failure of the Government to make a serious response.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am delighted with the opportunity to speak on this Bill. I hope when it is implemented there will be some major changes within the Garda Síochána. They are badly needed. The manner in which the Garda protects the people is close to my heart.

Fine Gael welcomes the Bill and the prospect of community policing. Our society has changed dramatically in recent years. Crimes that were crimes five or ten years ago remain crimes but we are now seeing certain types of anti-social behaviour. Deputy Burton and another Labour Party Member drew attention this morning to the hooded youngsters of whom people are frightened.

The primary duty of gardaí is to protect people. Like all in public life, including the parish priest and politicians, gardaí have a job to do, but some gardaí— a very small number — who go through the Templemore training system, who get through interviews and pass their exams, seem to forget their primary duty of protection, especially when they are assigned to Garda stations.

Since I became involved in politics in 2002, I have spoken to local gardaí every two weeks or so, more than I did three or four years ago. If a garda trainee enters Templemore at the age of 23, 24 or 25, he or she will have been out in the world, and will perhaps have gone to college or had a job. Such people have a different outlook from other trainees and theirs is the proper outlook because they know what goes on outside and have some common sense. Some of the trainees who go to Templemore direct from second level education are inclined to throw the book at people, to imagine they are in charge, and superior to others. That is a wrong way to behave.

A garda must find out what is happening in the community. A garda who has been out on the streets and has been around can find out more by chatting to people, rather than throwing the book at them, catching them going too fast through 30 mph zones or targeting a person who has perhaps had more than one pint. I feel strongly about that. Garda training must be reconsidered in terms of what they might have been engaged in before entering Templemore.

Fine Gael members were the founders of the State and of the Irish police force. I am proud to be in the party which founded a force which protects people. I am in favour of community policing in villages, parishes, towns and cities, because people have an important role in that area. When I think of community policing, however, I recall the time when councillors were on health boards. I do not want to see mere talking shops developing.

The Lord Mayor of Dublin issued a report on crime and policing on 7 February last. He said:

People want to see gardaí on the beat. They want to hear their feet on the streets, not their sirens as they speed past in cars with flashing lights. They want more judges in district courts so that all low level crime, disorder and anti-social cases will be speedily dealt with. They want local authorities, the gardaí, the courts and health and educational services to work together to target and reduce unacceptable behaviour like public drinking, drug-taking, late-night noise and other intimidating anti-social behaviour that affects so many communities in the city.

The Lord Mayor went on to say that the report was based on a number of submissions and that 40 focus groups had strongly urged that reducing crime, disorder or anti-social behaviour could not be the sole responsibility of the gardaí and the courts. That is where community policing can work.

When the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform received the report from the Lord Mayor he said:

I am glad to be here to receive the commission's report. The Lord Mayor is to be congratulated on his initiative in establishing the commission on crime and policing and the wide-ranging consultation it undertook with agencies — and most importantly, the residents of this city — must be commended. I am struck by the fact that the commission was set up only in September and completed its report on a wide range of topics in February.

The Minister went on to say:

I will carefully study the recommendations contained in the report. Already, a number of them, particularly those relating to the need for more gardaí on the beat, have struck a chord with me and indeed echo my own priorities for additional gardaí who will be coming out of Templemore over the next three years.

When I stood for election in 2002, those extra 2,000 gardaí were promised. In 2005, we still have not seen them. What people want is just as the Minister stated — more gardaí on the streets. People feel safer if they see a man in a Garda uniform perhaps walking through an estate or a busy shopping centre or whatever it may be. If community policing is to be successfully introduced, there must be more gardaí on the streets.

I meet my local Garda superintendent regularly to discuss crime levels, anti-social behaviour, or perhaps under-age drinking, or drug abuse, or whatever is going on in my home town, Enniscorthy. The superintendent points out that many gardaí are regularly tied up in different cases, perhaps following those involved in drugs or drug trafficking, or a major crime gang. Gardaí follow so many crime investigations that they are totally tied up. They have not got sufficient numbers in the Garda station or on the rosters to walk the streets.

When I spoke to the newly appointed superintendent in Enniscorthy, Peter Finn, he said he wanted to see gardaí walking the streets. He has done this and I have seen an improvement, on which people have commented to me. If they see a garda walking the street a few times each week, they feel safer. At first they asked if there was something wrong when they saw a garda on the street because we do not have the number required to have gardaí walking the streets and talking to people to hear what is going on.

The Community Alert scheme was initiated to cope with rural crime and robberies on a daily basis. I come from a rural area in County Wexford where not a week goes by without hearing of someone's house being robbed or broken into and not a weekend goes by without reading about a crime in the local or national newspapers. If I read any national newspaper today, I am sure I will read a story about some rural community where someone was robbed or tied up. The reason for this is that the system of rural policing has fallen apart.

Most of the Garda stations in the Enniscorthy area, for example, are manned for only two or three hours a day. I raised this matter in a parliamentary question in which I asked about the number of gardaí in rural stations. The Minister has no plans to increase their number. The population of Ferns, Kiltealy and many other villages dotted around County Wexford and throughout the country has increased dramatically but the number of gardaí has decreased.

Bunclody is a perfect example. It is now a medium-sized town but does not have a full-time Garda station. If there is an emergency in the area, gardaí must travel almost 20 miles from Gorey. If, God forbid, thieves were to enter a house in Bunclody tonight, shoot the occupants and disappear with their belongings, how long would it take gardaí to get to the scene from Gorey? This is what is happening across the country because criminals are aware of the situation. Whether thieves come from Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Wexford or County Mayo, they know it will take over half an hour for gardaí to arrive at the scene. They have it so well planned that they get in, take what they want and get away. The same could and has happened in the middle of the day. A year or two ago a bank robbery took place in Bunclody but by the time gardaí got to the scene the thieves were gone with the money. There was nothing the gardaí could do.

Those involved in the Community Alert and Neighbourhood Watch schemes must be commended but it is not their job to keep an eye on what is happening; that is what gardaí are paid to do. However, they do not have the resources or the numbers to do so. My parish, Bree, has a strong Community Alert group. Its members received no grant assistance to erect signs but had to go around and collect money from people residing in the parish. Only a small number are interested in such organisations, often older people. When they become too old or ill to take part, there will be nobody to replace them.

A press release from the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture and Food, Deputy Browne, a Wexford Deputy, stated it was scandalous gardaí were not involved in local GAA clubs and did not live in the parishes they policed. I agree. However, I would not like to see it included on the Garda application form that a person applying should become a member of the local GAA club and involved in training soccer teams, or, in the case of a female applicant, a member of the ICA. That happened 20 years ago. In fairness, gardaí must be able to get away from their work. We must face reality. Members of the force are not as actively involved in community organisations as they once were but that is their business. They have their job to do. If they want to become involved in the local GAA club, that is up to them; they should not have to become involved.

The complaint I hear about gardaí is that people have to wait for half an hour or an hour for them to turn up. People also complain that they do not see gardaí walking the street. These complaints all boil down to garda resources. The story of what happened in Gorey and Courtown Garda stations illustrates this. Both had cars that were involved in accidents and written off. In the case of Courtown, it took over two and a half months for the car to be replaced while in Gorey it took almost three months. The red tape involved in obtaining a new car or having one replaced is unacceptable.

We know gardaí have a tough job. Many of them should be commended. We see them on duty at weekends and they often take their life in their hands. Nobody knows when a knife will be pulled outside a nightclub or in a street brawl. Earlier somebody said the only time they ever saw gardaí was when the rows were over. If 30 or 40 fellows are hammering each other on the street, full to their eyes with drugs and drink, it is difficult for two, three or four gardaí to break them up. If I was a garda, I would not even try. I recall being outside a nightclub as a fight took place and the bouncers had to get involved to help the gardaí carry out their duty. That is totally unsatisfactory.

I cannot stress enough the importance of tackling anti-social behaviour. It is a major issue in every city, town, village and parish and the situation will be out of control if something is not done to address it quickly. I do not know if community policing will solve the problems caused by anti-social behaviour but it must be tackled head on. Increased Garda numbers would help. When the new recruits have been trained and deployed on our streets, I hope they do not become tied up in various investigations because a visible Garda presence is extremely important.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am glad to have the opportunity to contribute to the debate. I congratulate on his appointment, the new Garda Commissioner, Noel Conroy, who is originally from County Mayo. Last Saturday night he was honoured in his native county when he was selected Erris Person of the Year. It was my first opportunity to meet him. I saw him in action in the Oireachtas and on television in regard to an operational matter and I was impressed by his performance. He acquitted himself well. He presents a good image of the Garda. Gardaí in the past were more interested in the night life than in doing their jobs. I wish Noel Conroy well in a difficult appointment at a difficult time for the Garda.

On community policing, I am disappointed the legislation does not include a provision to make it compulsory on new recruits to the Garda to reside in the area to which they are assigned. That would be a step in the right direction and it must happen. I accept the Minister may not be able to do anything where recent recruits are concerned but future recruits should have to live where they are assigned. In the past gardaí lived in the areas in which they worked. They gathered information locally and they knew what was going on. Part of the problem nowadays is that people in many towns and villages do not know their local gardaí. This issue should be examined. Perhaps the Minister might consider making it part of the conditions for new recruits when they sign on the dotted line so that if they are assigned to Westport, Castlebar or Ballina, for example, they must live in those towns and cannot expect to be able to travel from Galway and elsewhere.

Previously, small Garda stations were open in every town and village. The population was smaller and there was less crime but rural Garda stations are being closed and gardaí are consolidated in cities and towns leaving rural areas unpoliced. That is wrong and this policy should be re-examined. I am not saying every rural Garda station should be reopened but a reasonable compromise should be reached. For example, my area covers Louisburgh to Westport, a distance of 13 miles. There used to be Garda stations in Westport, Murrisk and Louisburgh but the one in Murrisk has been closed. That is fine because it is only four miles from Westport. However, the population in these towns and villages has increased and more people are moving into rural areas.

The town planners are pushing more people into housing estates, resulting in increased levels of anti-social behaviour. Every week at my clinic, people are looking for transfers from local authority housing not because they do not like their houses or the area but because they cannot live there because of the activities of young people who are involved in anti-social behaviour and whose parents do not control them. That is a major problem we must examine, as a society. This cannot continue. Young people are on the streets at all hours and their parents do not control them. The time has come to make parents responsible for young children who are creating havoc in every town and village.

I welcome the establishment of the Garda ombudsman commission and policing committees. I have always said politicians should not investigate politicians and gardaí should not investigate gardaí. I hope the commission will work and that there will be a little independence in the system. In the past, the investigation of complaints against gardaí by gardaí has not worked. The ombudsman will be given the power and resources to investigate complaints. That is welcome. Equally, however, people who make dishonest complaints should pay a serious price because they waste valuable resources and time. If a complaint is made, sometimes it cannot be fully investigated and finalised and there may be a doubt. That is fine but the issue of people making dishonest complaints against gardaí, usually when they are facing a prosecution, must be examined.

I hope community policing will work. I was a member of Westport Urban District Council for more than 20 years and the one complaint we received every week related to the lack of gardaí on the street. Another problem we had was the regular transfer of superintendents in and out of the town. We had three or four superintendents in a three year period. That was neither good for policing nor the morale of the local force. However, that has been addressed and the current superintendent has been in the town for a good while. The one job he did well was to put policemen on the street day and night. One can walk through Westport at any time and a Garda presence is visible. This presence has addressed late night problems in the town. The people were right. That is what they wanted, that is what they got and it has worked. I hope that will happen in every town and village.

I recently spoke to a garda based in a city who said he was dealing with drug addicts all the time but the only protection he received was an anti-hepatitis C injection. These times are different; we are dealing with different people. The necessary resources should be given to the Garda. It is time we considered the uniform, in particular to ensure gardaí have the right headgear. There are now people with no respect for life or human beings who do not mind injuring anyone. It is time we examined the equipment gardaí use, especially regarding drug addicts, to ensure they are protected by gloves or whatever else they need.

I learned when I travelled to County Meath during the recent by-election campaign that everyone in the country had a jeep and that they were being stolen. Fellows are driving around in high powered jeeps and cars. The term used for them is "joy-riders" but they do not give much joy to a family when they kill someone in an accident on the road. That is not a great joy and the name should not be used by the media. They are not joy-riders but thugs. They steal high powered vehicles, drive them through the streets of cities and towns and kill people with them.

Being a garda is becoming an ever more difficult job. Like politics, it is not easy to satisfy everyone. At the same time, however, we depend on them. When there is a problem and we call them, we expect them to be there. When a problem arises in the shape of serious or petty crime, we depend on them. We must give them the necessary resources and manpower. That is what was done in New York where they started dealing with anti-social behaviour and petty crime. They also had to deal with serious crime. They knew that the police force and Government were serious about tackling crime and that where there was a problem, it would be dealt with from the bottom. It is important we send that message in this country. We want the best police force in the world, the best equipped and the most honest. We want the people to be protected as quickly as possible.

The Minister is talking about opening cafés. I know that it is a different Bill and that there will be another agenda and another day's debate on the drink culture in this country but the most serious problem facing the State is the abuse of drink and drugs. I put drink first and drugs second. The single biggest mistake we ever made was extending the licensing laws. It has created a major problem in the country. I know it is not popular to say this since there is a major lobby group. I know I will have my critics on licensed premises where this might not go down too well but we must be honest that the abuse of alcohol is the single greatest challenge we face.

We have dealt with the smoking ban and must now deal with the abuse of alcohol. We must address it as a society and should not be afraid to do so since it is creating much of the crime, violence and anti-social behaviour experienced. The time has come for the Government to take this issue on, just as it did with the smoking ban. Like smoking in pubs and other public places, we must make it unacceptable to abuse drink. Whether we like it, we must also tackle off-licences regarding their opening hours and how drink is sold. Pubs may have lost business since the smoking ban but if they have, consumption has not decreased. This is certainly affecting matters. Drink is being consumed but where it is being drunk is another matter. We must examine this matter and if we deal with it, we will tackle a great deal of crime.

I agree with the community policing end of the Minister's Bill and hope it works. It is important to have the community involved to ensure local people know what is going on, particularly in the protection of the most vulnerable elderly people. I remember that at one time in rural Ireland we had people coming in, robbing the elderly and driving out in the middle of the night. I remember people going to bed in daylight and not getting up again until dawn because they were afraid to let anyone into their homes. We must never allow that to happen again. That is why it is important we give the Garda the necessary resources and manpower. The Minister must honour the commitment he gave regarding 2,000 extra gardaí who must be put on the beat to do their job, namely, protect the general public and taxpayers.

That is essentially all I have to say. I hope the Bill works, since it is important for us all that we have a good, honest police force and that people feel, when they make a complaint, that it is destined to be listened to by someone independent who will adjudicate on it. We have excellent gardaí but there is no point in our pretending that there are not members in the force who should not be in it. If they create a problem, they should be removed. If they are not doing their job or breaking the law, they should be removed.

Shane McEntee (Meath, Fine Gael)
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I would like to speak on crime regarding my experiences during my successful by-election campaign. It amazed me, living in a nice, quiet area at one end of the county, when I moved on to built-up areas such as Dunshaughlin, Ratoath, Ashbourne and even Navan to learn that the crime rates in those areas were far higher than in my own. We can always blame young people for crime but I have been involved in sports activity for 23 years and everywhere one is involved in sport, crime is not even an issue. People have something to do, whether they are senior or junior footballers, lady footballers or handballers. Anywhere one has sports facilities, there is no crime. The one thing that really annoyed me during my campaign was that in all those built-up areas no one saw fit, if one had 20 houses or 100 children, to provide enough sports facilities for young people.

It is out of boredom and perhaps a lack of policing that young people get involved in crime. I always find that, no matter at what age, a young fellow will go through a rough patch, like we did ourselves somewhere between the ages of 18 and 21 years. One can be led astray but it is very easy to get back if something is put in front of one instead of gangs or drugs. There will always be 5% or 10% of people who do not want to comply with any rules or regulations. They are the people who must ultimately be targeted — the likes of the drug dealers and those who simply do not want to be part of society.

To my amazement, drug dealers and others involved in crime are getting away too lightly. Their sentences are too short. The excuse that we do not have the prisons to hold them is not good enough. It is very easy to rob a bank or put a gun to someone's head. The next thing one sees is that they receive a four year suspended sentence. They must be put away. A gun is a good thing in its own right and I blame the person who handles it for the crime. It is up to the Government and us in opposition, to promote more sports and other facilities for young people that will take them away from crime. I am an admirer of the Minister and the manner in which he sometimes stands alone in saying such things but it must be implemented. One must have jails to put people away, not for three or four months in order that they take a winter break; they must be put away for years.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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They are closing them down.

Shane McEntee (Meath, Fine Gael)
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They must find one big enough somewhere, reopening one if necessary. Those who are leading our young people astray must be put away.

Having been involved in this area and been in a pub, I have seen how young people can enjoy a few drinks. It is when drugs come into play later in the night that they cannot be handled. That is one objection I have to the new proposal for nightclubs to open for an extra hour late at night. It would be better having people go out at 7 p.m. or 8 p.m. rather than having them stay out until 3 a.m. or 4 a.m. and then supposedly be able to get up and work. They are not able to do so and go back to drinking, at which stage they get involved with drugs and so on.

As a new Deputy, I firmly believe we do not put enough resources into supporting the young who are all good people. It is very easy to knock them since they do not come out to vote but they need help. They must be protected from the criminals who make massive sums from them. At Christmas or any other time gardaí are on the beat, some might not like it.