Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)

Everything that could be possibly said about the Garda Síochána has been said since this Bill was published. However, it is a serious matter and there are several issues that I wish to raise. I have no problem with the main thrust of the Bill; in some matters I wanted the Minister to go further.

There are two fundamental issues important for the future of law and order in the State. The Garda Síochána earns the public's trust and respect. However, this can be a two-edged sword. Despite attempts by groups in society to fracture this trust, it remains to a large degree. Whatever the Garda does, it must always remember the most important ace in its hand is that the public trusts it and wants it in place on its behalf. However, if that trust and goodwill go, whether there are 12,000 or 20,000 members in the force, it will not be possible to run a democracy.

It is becoming the in thing to do down the Garda, a dangerous path for society to take. There is the serious matter of some parts of Dublin city, other cities and large towns, loosely described as no-go areas for the Garda. Irrespective of what it will take on the part of the Oireachtas, the Judiciary and local community groups, there is a thin blue line between those who want to get on with their work and believe in freedom and thugs and disturbers. If the thugs get half a chance, they will wreck community life. No other group can stand on that thin blue line other than the Garda Síochána.

Like other sections in society such as politicians and the clergy, the force has come under the microscope as peculiar events have happened within it. I have enough respect, belief and confidence in it that these will be overcome. I sincerely hope we will have a police force of which we all can be proud. For every bad apple in the Garda Síochána there is a barrel full of good ones. I know men and women who have dedicated their lives to the job, who held their heads high from the day they became a Garda recruit until the day they retired. It is unfair to draw general conclusions because of the ridiculous carry-on of a few members of the force, irrespective of rank. The community's trust in the police force must be worked on intensively to ensure the continuation of the bond of friendship and contract between both.

I agree with the Minister's proposal of a three person ombudsman commission. People argue academically whether it should be similar to the structure in place in Northern Ireland. It will, however, be much better than the existing Police Complaints Board. I do not have a dagger out for the board. I understand it did its best, working within its given remit. However, people quickly lose interest when police investigate police. I hope the proposed commission will be seen to be absolutely independent, without the slightest smell of collusion. The Minister has proposed various levels for the commission's remit, allowing for the difference between minor and other indiscretions. The Garda Commissioner will adjudicate on these matters. Society has come to the point where one has to define a small indiscretion. However, it must be remembered it could be a large indiscretion to the individual affected and every case, or at least the decision involved, should be vetted by the ombudsman's office before it is communicated to anybody. That stamp should be attached in order that it will be clear that it was independent.

On many occasions members of the public have not accepted the findings of the police complaints board. However, this is a two way street. There are occasions when pressure is put on the police force and it is aggravated to a degree where people hope it will respond. A couple of years ago I was leaving the House through the Kildare Street gate. Gardaí were lined up in riot gear. I forget what the demonstration was about but it was rowdy. I was standing behind the row of policemen. Two thugs, in the hope of starting a racket, spat through the vizor of a policeman's helmet. Imagine how degrading that is.

I have not received the relevant training but if I had been that policeman, the thug would not have spat at me a second time. However, if a policeman were to react in any way other than the way he is trained to do, there would be huge trouble. The public should understand gardaí are put under enormous pressure at such times. Of course, their training equips them to deal with this but nobody should forget that pressure. Where a garda, of whatever rank, steps out of line and breaks the rules, he or she should be brought to justice like every other citizen. However, there is another side to that coin. I sincerely hope, with regard to public order, that many of the thugs one sees in towns and cities will be brought to book. They are simply seeking trouble. It makes no difference to them who they hurt; they seem to get a kick out of creating trouble.

I wish to refer to community policing. I am a little confused about the number of gardaí in the force. According to the reply to a parliamentary question a few days ago, the number is 12,200 but the Taoiseach and the Minister tell us that there are 14,000 gardaí. Which figure is correct? I believe that while we might aspire to having 14,000 gardaí, the current number is 12,200. Regardless of what the number is, there are not enough gardaí doing the work they should be doing.

It is true I do not know what happens in Dublin city at night but I do know what happens in Galway and Limerick cities and, in particular, Ballinasloe, Tuam and even small towns such as Mountbellew, where I live. It is usually a quiet peaceful place. When the doors of the discos in these big towns are opened at 2.30 a.m. or 3 a.m., people flow out onto the street. They go down to the local chip shop and a fight develops. There might be 150 to 500 people there. How can one expect two or three gardaí in a patrol car to impose law and order when an ugly and intense fight breaks out? It would be the most unequal row of all time. One cannot expect the gardaí to win it. We must minimise the opportunities people have to congregate in that fashion. It is not a question of closing down the country. However, if a row must occur, there is a better chance of the police being there if it occurs earlier in the night.

There is a lack of manpower. Take, for example, a peaceful area such as east Galway. Nearly every town and village holds discos, although on a smaller scale than in the big cities. Consider the number of gardaí available at that hour of the night, taking account of the rostering system. There are four gardaí in Athenry but the four are not on duty at the same time. One cannot expect them to be. They are entitled to time off like everybody else. On occasion only one garda is on duty. How can one expect one person to be in control of a town such as Athenry, given all the events that can occur during the night after a disco? The Minister should think about this. The information he is getting from the Garda Commissioner must be informing him that the stations are short of staff.

When one tables a parliamentary question on this matter to the Minister — this also applies to his predecessor — the reply always states the Minister is informed by the Garda authorities that there are sufficient numbers for the job in hand. However, everybody in the country, including local gardaí, says there are not enough. How is it that the Minister, his predecessors and the Garda Commissioner have the same story? Is it that when one gets to a certain level, either in government or in the force, one believes the maxim that if the resources are better utilised, one can work with the existing numbers?

The Minister will say the crime figures are reducing and, thankfully, certain categories are. However, what about the loutish behaviour the Minister has referred to so often recently? I do not know the figures for such crime; I doubt anybody has correct figures because much of this crime is unreported. The time at which it is committed and the fact that so little is known about the perpetrators mean it is difficult to keep account of it. I believe its incidence is greatly increased. It must be nipped in the bud. A thug under 20 years of age who creates trouble on the main street of Ballinasloe and gets away with it is likely, if given a free rein, to become a major criminal by the time he is 30 years of age. By then he believes he is unstoppable.

That brings me to the concept of community policing. Every report I have seen on policing anywhere in the world reaches the same conclusion, that there must be community police. If a garda believes he or she can be in direct contact with the community when he or she spends all of his or her time either on a telephone in an office or inside a squad car, he or she is not making progress. It is that simple. It is as if politicians had no contact with anybody. The result is that one does not have elementary information. I know some community gardaí. They know almost everyone in the area and almost everything that is going on. In debates such as this during the years, some people tried to convince us that this is useless information, but it is not. The pup that creates trouble on the street in Ballinasloe, Tuam or Mountbellew and gets away with it is on to a good thing. This is where criminality starts if there is no deterrent. If we want to nip this in the bud, we must take this loutish behaviour very seriously. However we pay them, we want more police here.

There is Garda involvement with young people in the school warden schemes and other types of youth work. Some people suggest that such activity is Garda time badly spent. I have the opposite view. When I spoke about trust, I was referring to that wonderful connection that people have with people they can trust. There is no better time to develop trust than when people are young, have no preconceived ideas and take people at face value. There is nothing better than a policeman training school wardens for a couple of hours. I hope the youth programmes in which gardaí are involved will be maintained and intensified in the future.

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