Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 23 September 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration
International Protection Accommodation Service: Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration
2:00 am
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Mark Ward and Senator Lynn Ruane. Deputy Johnny Guirke is attending in substitution for Deputy Ward. I remind members to turn off their mobile phones or at least switch them to flight mode.
The purpose of the meeting is to have an engagement with the Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, to discuss the management and operation of the IPAS system generally, with a particular interest in processes for application decision-making, appeals and enforcement of decisions; processes for determination of locations for IPAS accommodation and suitability of accommodation; and concerns regarding profiteering within the system. I welcome the Minister and his officials to the meeting.
The format of the meeting is that I will invite him to make an opening statement to the committee on the matter. This will be followed by questions from members in the order in which they have indicated to me. In order to manage the committee's time effectively, I propose that each member will have an initial seven minutes to engage with the Minister. That is for both questions and answers, so it is important that members put their questions succinctly and the Minister be succinct in his responses. Following all members who have indicated having their initial engagement, and time permitting, we will allow for a second round of questions. Obviously, the duration of this meeting is limited, so the times must be strictly adhered to. I ask everyone to be focused in that regard.
I again welcome the Minister and invite him to deliver his opening statement.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chairman and committee members for inviting me in.
Since becoming Minister, I have taken steps to ensure that the international protection process is robust, that our rules are enforced and that the process is managed as efficiently and effectively as possible. As the Chairman knows, the right to claim asylum is an important principle of international law dating back to 1951. To protect that system for the very people who need it – those fleeing war and persecution – it has to work. My central policy objective is to speed up the decision-making process. Faster decisions will allow those who need our protection the ability to get on with their lives rather than waiting in limbo. It also means those who are not entitled to protection leave the country much sooner. It also sends a clear message that applying for international protection is not a back door to our thriving labour market. We already have a system in place whereby people can apply for work permits and visas. My Department received over 200,000 applications for visas last year with over 150,000 being granted.
This committee is particularly interested in the amount of public money that is being spent on providing accommodation for asylum seekers and we will, no doubt, discuss issues concerning accommodation providers and the terms of contracts. However, I emphasise from the outset that the biggest driver of expenditure for asylum accommodation is the number of people coming into the country seeking international protection. Prior to the pandemic, there were typically 3,000 to 5,000 applications for international protection in Ireland each year. In 2016, there were 2,200; in 2017 there were 2,900; in 2018 there were 3,600; and in 2019 there were 4,700. In the Covid years, it declined to 1,500 and 2,600 in 2020 and 2021, respectively. Between 2022 and 2024, this pattern changed quickly and substantially, with a surge in the numbers arriving rising to over 13,500 in both 2022 and 2023, and 18,500 in 2024. At the same time, over 114,000 people arrived in Ireland fleeing the war in Ukraine. Consequently, a total of 159,000 people arrived in Ireland claiming temporary protection or international protection in that three-year period from 2022 to 2024.
These numbers created a crisis. They threatened to overwhelm the ability of the International Protection Office to process cases and placed the State in a very weak negotiating position as it needed to dramatically expand the accommodation available to both international protection applicants and Ukrainian citizens. In order to respond to this crisis situation, the State invested in hiring more staff to process the applications. I will continue to invest across end-to-end processing with additional staff. In 2019, there were 143 people working in the International Protection Office. Today, there are 620. That is an increase of 334%.
As well as staffing, over the past few years, there has also been investment in ICT capital expenditure and many process improvements. This is producing results. In 2024, the International Protection Office delivered over 14,000 first-instance decisions compared with 8,500 in 2023. Already this year, the office has produced 13,800 decisions. The International Protection Appeals Tribunal closed around 3,100 appeals in 2024 compared with over 1,700 in 2023. To date, it has already produced 4,100 in 2025. My overall strategy for the international protection process, aimed at making more and faster decisions, is working. From the beginning of my tenure as Minister, applications for asylum have decreased by 40%.
Before I talk about accommodation matters, I want to comment on the end of the application process. Once a person receives a positive decision on their international application, Ireland is their new home and we will give them all the help and support they need to integrate into our society. For people whose applications have been carefully assessed and who have been deemed not to need our protection, another process commences. In other words, they must leave the country. They can do so voluntarily, and my Department runs a voluntary returns programme to help make this process as smooth as possible for them. If they choose not to leave voluntarily, however, they will be forced to leave. We must hold firm on this principle because deportations are an essential part of any immigration system. More than double the number of deportation orders have been signed this year compared with those signed in the same period last year - 3,029 compared with 1,400.
As stated, I derive no pleasure from deporting people, but it is the right thing to do. Some members of this committee and other Members of the Oireachtas dislike deportations and accuse me of a lack of compassion. I would like to point out that the Assistant High Commissioner of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees stated recently that the deportation of migrants whose asylum claims have been rejected after going through a comprehensive and effective process should be actively encouraged to maintain the integrity of a country's asylum system. I welcome the fact that the assistant high commissioner is quoted as stating something I have repeatedly stated, namely that there is no point in having an asylum process to determine who is in need of international protection if, at the end of the process, the people who were rejected are allowed to remain in the country. I want the public to know that, in the context of asylum, I am applying a rules-based system. Those rules are based on the laws enacted by the Oireachtas, in particular the International Protection Act. If people are not happy with my approach, they should seek to change the rules by changing the law. It is open to every Member of the Oireachtas to put forward amending legislation if they are unhappy with the rules applied.
As members know, my Department now has responsibility for all aspects of the international protection process, including sourcing and providing accommodation for people applying for international protection and for people fleeing the war in Ukraine. As mentioned, over 45,000 people arrived and applied for international protection during 2022, 2023 and 2024, almost matching the total number of applications made during the previous 16 years. This coincided with the invasion of Ukraine, when more than 114,000 people fleeing that conflict arrived in Ireland. Ireland has at all times endeavoured to provide accommodation and other basic supports to people seeking international protection as required under the European Communities (Reception Conditions) Regulations 2018, which implement in Irish law the EU directive passed by the Parliament in 2013. That unprecedented surge in applications for international protection since early 2022, alongside the arrivals from Ukraine, meant that the accommodation system had to grow very significantly under immense pressure over a relatively short period.
That put the State in a very weak negotiating position due to the huge need and limited supply. People were camped on the streets in tents. The State desperately sought further accommodation or just sites on which to place tents from all sources. I am told that it had to accept almost every offer of accommodation received. What are now viewed as appropriate pre-contract assessments and negotiations did not apply because the State had to move at pace. It was a market that suited accommodation providers and, consequently, contract terms were agreed that would not be considered in today’s changed climate. Overall, capacity in the international protection and Ukraine accommodation system had to extend to cover up to an additional 80,000 people during that surge period. Now, the number of people from Ukraine in State accommodation has dropped and the number of international protection applications has reduced.
At the same time, processing of those applications is getting faster and we are regaining control of the system. When I became Minister for Justice, the number of unaccommodated international protection applicants stood at well over 3,000. Today, it is just over 600. As a general policy position when it comes to international protection accommodation, we need to move away from the emergency use of hotels to a more sustainable and cost-efficient State accommodation model. We are bringing huge focus on achieving improved value for money in terms of the very high costs of this system, as State-owned services offer much more favourable costs than commercial services. We are also looking at all the commercial contracts we have, negotiating savings on those contracts as we renew them and improving the systems and processes we follow to oversee compliance and standards across the system. Our current focus is on developing State-owned accommodation from a range of sources, building a sustainable system and reducing reliance on commercial providers over time. A more robust international protection system and the increase in application processing I outlined will allow us to ensure that the system is smaller and that people spend less time in it than in recent years.
I now want to look in more detail at the cost of this accommodation and at how accommodation is selected and overseen. The international protection accommodation service, IPAS, is managed by my Department. IPAS was formerly in Department of the former Minister, Deputy O'Gorman. It sources and funds accommodation and oversees resident allocation and welfare, standards and compliance. In 2024, just over €1 billion was spent on accommodating international protection applicants. This year, a budget of €1.2 billion has been allocated. These figures are unsustainable and must be brought down. Just under 90% of all accommodation is commercially sourced. However, we have now increased to almost 4,000 the number of State-owned beds with plans to increase this to 14,000. There were only 900 State-owned beds in July 2024 and we have now got that up to 4,000.
The accommodation system is demand-led and, as I have outlined, is sensitive to international crises, conflicts and migration trends. The State provides accommodation to nearly 33,000 people today in IPAS, 9,500 of whom are children. It is important to note that while we have a legal obligation to provide accommodation to international protection applicants, and the State can be sued for failing to provide same, when a person is granted status, they acquire much the same rights as Irish citizens do to housing. Therefore, they are not entitled to remain in accommodation designated for international protection. Yet, at present, regrettably, over 5,000 people who have been granted status remain in this accommodation. Many of these individuals are working but do not contribute to their accommodation costs. This is both inequitable and intolerable in circumstances where there remains a significant cohort of international protection applicants left unaccommodated. It is vital for the integrity of the system that the provision of accommodation is not abused in this manner and that the accommodation is available to those who have no rights to other housing supports.
There is extensive oversight of all aspects of the accommodation commissioning process. As we regain control of the system, these processes have been improving considerably. Given the intense pressure in recent years, the State was dependent on offers of commercial accommodation from external providers. We were not able in that period to implement significant policy control over the location of accommodation or negotiate accommodation solutions at appropriate prices. Now,all offers of accommodation are appraised within my Department by a dedicated team. The factors considered include a site and its potential, value for money for the State, due diligence regarding the provider and planning and regulatory matters. Consideration is also given to the location with regard to access to services and the health and well-being of residents.
There is a strong commitment on the part of the Government and my Department to the continuous improvement of this oversight. We are reviewing contracts and seeing notable improvement in standards, governance and compliance. The introduction of a new rate card model is driving costs down for new and renewed contracts, already saving over €46 million this year, and is applied to each contract as it comes up for renewal. In parallel, we are developing more State-owned accommodation from a range of sources, building our ability to reduce reliance on commercial providers. A key milestone was the recent purchase of Citywest, a move that, compared with the previous leasing model, will pay for itself in four years.
In one year alone, this purchase will save us €39 million in running costs. This is because the cost per person in a State-owned facility is approximately €12,000 per year compared with more than €33,000 per year in a commercial facility.
We have renovated other State accommodation and brought on stream modular solutions, all of which contributed to boosting State-owned bed numbers from 900 spaces in July 2024 to over 4,000 today. This change should also enable far greater control over dispersal patterns and enhanced engagement with local communities. The Government also wants to see the introduction of a contribution by working international protection applicants towards their accommodation costs. This will be aligned to similar systems across the EU, and aims to bring equity across Irish society in terms of contributing to accommodation costs.
All of this is in the context of improving the application system itself and speeding it up. This is the long-term priority, so that fewer people spend less time in IPAS accommodation and transition from that crisis response to a sustainable, fair and more efficient model. A rules-based and robust international protection system will give our people confidence in the operation of the immigration laws of our country. Ireland has gained much from and been enhanced by immigration. We need to seek to avoid the divisive and often toxic debate which has developed in other parts of the world on this topic. I look forward to questions from the Cathaoirleach and committee members.
Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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The Department has written to me three times about the Oldcastle House Hotel in Oldcastle, County Meath. It is a 12-bedroom hotel. The Department has said that while it received a request with regard to accommodation, it is no longer considering it. The people who own the hotel have IPAS centres throughout the country. A meeting has been organised in Oldcastle for tomorrow night by concerned residents about losing the only hotel in the town to an IPAS centre. Will the Minister rule this out and state categorically that the Oldcastle House Hotel, regardless of whether its name is changed, will not be used as an IPAS centre today or in the future?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I can answer this very clearly. I have no plans to use the Oldcastle House Hotel as an IPAS centre. There is no proposal to do so, and I am not planning to use it in the future. Since I came into office, very few IPAS centres have been opened. What I want to try to do is ensure that we use the spaces we have available throughout the system. We have 33,000 people accommodated at present. I want to be able to use what we have efficiently. I want to avoid a situation where, as happened when there was a crisis in 2023 and 2024, the Department is obliged to search the country looking for accommodation suites. I am not doing that. It is much more efficient to ensure we get people in, process their applications quickly and move them out once they get a determination that they are entitled to stay or are refused protection and have to leave. I am trying to cut down on the number of new IPAS centres. Certainly, I have no plans in respect of the Oldcastle House Hotel.
Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister. What is causing a lot of hassle around the country is where section 5 exemptions from planning are used to house international protection applicants or Ukrainian applicants. We believe something needs to be done about this because it is being abused. What determines the location of an IPAS centre? Is it communication with local representatives or communities? Is it done on the basis of the services in the area? Is the Minister moving away from using smaller places? He said that an estimated €1.2 billion is due to be spent on IPAS accommodation this year, although it is possible that this figure will be exceeded and that hundreds of millions more will be spent on accommodation for Ukrainians. A small number of private operators have got very rich. They have earned millions. We feel this is because of the Government's dysfunctional approach. There does not seem to be any transparency, including in respect of what qualifies many of these operators to provide these services. Over the past 18 months, we have seen some cases where the cost of this accommodation has increased by 68%. Does the Minister plan to cap the rate per day for accommodation? What are the Minister's thoughts on this?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The first issue is the section 5 exemptions. These happen under SI 376/2023, which grants exemptions for properties to be used as IPAS centres in order to provide people with temporary accommodation. This provision expires in 2028.
I note what Deputy Guirke said about concern being created in communities. If a section 5 application notice goes up, some people believe that, inevitably, there will be an IPAS centre. It does not mean that at all. However, some people - and I am not saying this applies to anyone in the Oireachtas - deliberately misuse this information and suggest that because a section 5 application has been made, people need to protest against the arrival of an IPAS centre. This is being done for fairly reprehensible reasons by certain small groups of people. The purpose of a section 5 exemption is in order that individuals who want to come to the Department and state they have accommodation available can say they have a planning exception from the local authority.
Deputy Guirke also mentioned the budget for IPAS. The figures are eye-watering. I want to reduce them. I must emphasise a point I made in my opening statement, namely that there certainly was a situation in 2022, 2023 and 2024 when there was a crisis because of the numbers arriving. The real driver of the amount of money the State spends is the number of people coming in who have to be accommodated. We spent €1 billion last year because 33,000 people or so were accommodated. This is the real driver. The way to respond to this is to get people through the system much faster and have their applications processed so they are not staying in IPAS centres for one, two or three years. We want to get them in and out promptly over a period of months. Everyone is entitled to this.
Deputy Guirke also asked about transparency. There is transparency. Details of any expenditure above €20,000 by the Department in respect of IPAS are published on the gov.ie website. This is where people can see information about the amounts of money made by individuals in the private sector. It is unquestionably the case that huge amounts of money were paid out to individuals in the private sector. My assessment, looking back on it and having listened to my experienced officials, is that the State was desperate for accommodation during the surge in 2022, 2023 and 2024. There clearly was an imbalance of power in the negotiations and private accommodation providers were probably able to use the crisis to get higher prices for themselves. I am pleased to say this has been changed considerably. Already in 2025, there have been 100 renegotiations of contracts, saving, as I have said, approximately €46 million, and maybe a bit more.
Deputy Guirke asked whether we will cap the price per night per person. I do not think I need to do that. A new rate card has come into existence. This sets out the basis on which we will offer a sum of money to a private provider. It depends on a variety of issues. It depends on location, catering provision, room sizes, staffing and security. Many of these factors are taken into account when we look at a place. Obviously, location is a big element. There is a big difference between paying for accommodation to be used as IPAS centres in more advantaged areas and in disadvantaged areas.
Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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We feel an examination is needed because millions of euro were paid for IPAS accommodation to a company owned by man who was named by the Criminal Assets Bureau as being linked to a gangland feud. The Department of justice continued to lease accommodation from the Good People home care company, which was found to have supplied fake Garda vetting clearances to Tusla. Is that being addressed?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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You will not get a contract with my Department for rental accommodation for IPAS if you have convictions for fraud or serious crimes. You will not get a contract with my Department unless you are tax compliant and you have a tax clearance certificate. You will not get a contract unless you are solvent, and you need to have complied with public service contracts. These are fairly fundamental requirements. In terms of Good People, Deputy McDonald, Deputy Guirke's party leader, raised this issue with me previously. It had a contract with my Department for accommodation for Ukrainian refugees. I terminated that contract this month.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister for his presentation . I assume I am one of the people he referenced as accusing him of lacking compassion when it comes to deportation flights. I do not think I personalised the matter. The decision that was made lacked compassion. I might just go into it, since the Minister referenced it.
The decision was in relation to the deportation of children. The Minister referred to the fact that the UNHCR Assistant High Commissioner welcomed deportations as a necessary part of the asylum process. I do not think anyone disagrees with that. Does the Minister reckon that the Assistant High Commissioner would also reference the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, UNCRC, particularly in the area of deportations? Take, for example, the decision to deport five children, two of whom were two weeks away from concluding their primary school experience. That lacked compassion from the State. Again, I do not want to individualise it. Does the Minister regret that decision? Is it something he thinks might happen again? Other jurisdictions, such as Germany, have signed up to the same agreements but do not deport children during the school term. I would like to hear the Minister's views on this.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I do not take it personally. It is a perfectly legitimate charge to say that a politician or Minister acts without compassion. I do not take that personally and I know the Deputy did not mean it in that way.
On the deportation of children, I do not derive any pleasure from doing that. If I were to say that we will not deport children, it would put the State in an impossible position. The message would go out to people that if they arrive in Ireland and claim asylum and have children, it does not matter what happens in the process, because at the end of the process the person can never be forced to leave. I do not regret the decisions that have been made. It is an essential part of an effective asylum system. Regrettably, it is something that has to be done.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Yes, both of us would like to see a speeding-up of the process, but probably with different safeguards implemented beforehand. However, those children had been here for many years of their young lives. That is the difference. They were failed by the same systems the Minister is trying to rectify, so within that there possibly is space for an amnesty in light of the length of time a child has been in the State. I appreciate the Minister's concerns, but I do not think they hold in those particular areas, especially if we are trying to improve the system.
Approximately 83% of IPAS centres are designated as emergency accommodation and therefore fall outside of HIQA's inspection remit, and even within that, 17% of centres HIQA has inspected have very low compliance rates. What steps is the Government taking to measure proper independent oversight of health and safety standards in all asylum accommodation centres?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy will be aware that HIQA has national standards for people in protection. In 2024, there were 300 inspections of IPAS centres. Some of them were performed by HIQA and some were performed by IPAS itself. A total of 82% of the centres were inspected in 2024. My officials inform me that there are inspections of premises on a yearly basis and that those inspections are well announced. I have visited IPA centres to see how they operate and to see whether I am satisfied with the quality of them. The HIQA inspections come before me and I consider them closely. Very many of the contracts that have been terminated this year, and I have terminated 12 contracts this year already, were terminated predominantly because I was not happy with the standards in the centres.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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As I said, 17% of the centres did not meet the standards. Earlier this year the whistleblower's ombudsman described as unacceptable the current regime for investigating wrongdoing in IPA centres. What reforms have been introduced since then to ensure that residents can safely and effectively report mistreatment or mismanagement?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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In any IPAS centre I have been to, there is a mechanism in place whereby the residents can report wrongdoing or low standards and quality, such as issues in respect of food and hygiene within the centre. People do make complaints in respect of it, and they are entitled to. Similarly, if a person working there is concerned about the standards being provided, they also can provide that information. There are mechanisms available for people who are either residents in IPAS centres or employees working in IPAS centres to bring issues concerning wrongdoing or low standards to the attention of the lessor, which in fact is my Department.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Which specific recommendations are in place for the residents? If residents have a problem with food or their treatment, do they go to the management of the IPAS centres themselves?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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They can go to the management of the centres themselves. They do this quite frequently. People are aware that if they are getting very low quality standards in terms of low quality food or hygiene services, they can make a complaint and those complaints are taken very seriously. That is the reason I have terminated contracts. When I get reports that show low and inadequate standards, the consequence can be termination. There is a helpdesk in IPAS centres as well that receives complaints. That is the system that operates.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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It does not operate effectively. A total of €1.2 billion is allocated for IPAS accommodation this year. What oversight exists to ensure the money is spent on services for residents, rather than expanding the profit margins for operators, and to ensure taxpayers are receiving value for money?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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A huge amount of money is being spent, as I am sure the Deputy appreciates. I want to emphasise that the main driver of that amount of money is the number of people who are in the accommodation. It costs the State €30,000 a year to accommodate a person in a commercial, private sector entity. It costs €12,000 per year to accommodate somebody in a State entity. I have introduced a new rate card. The purpose of the rate card is to renegotiate contracts that were put in place in 2022 or 2023. I am pleased to say that the new rate card is having a good impact and already I have got 96 new lower rates than what was there before.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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The question is about how the Minister is ensuring value for money from the IPAS operators. People are entitled to seek asylum, whether they are successful or not. While they are in the care of the State, how the State is spending the money is actually how the Department responds back to us. How is the Minister ensuring that the money is being spent in an effective way?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Once the contracts expire, it is by telling the providers that we are not going to provide X any more, but that we will instead will give X minus 20%. We are renegotiating contracts. That is how we are getting value for money.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I want to revert to the issue of children. I acknowledge the changes that the Minister has introduced and I support many of them. There were serious issues in relation to the onslaught of the number of people coming here. The initial process by which contracts were given for accommodation left a lot to be desired. It did need to be cleaned up. The vast amounts of money being spent were incredible. However, we also need to have some form of breaking point, or cutoff, as regards how we treat vulnerable people and children coming to this country. If they have been here for a certain period, I think we should consider an amnesty for them or allow them to stay. If these family units have not been processed in a timely fashion, that is the fault of the State. Is that something the Minister would consider? I am not even stating the period of time I would suggest. Is it something the Minister would consider?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I want to agree with the Deputy before I then go on to disagree with him. He is correct to say that the initial process for giving out contracts left a lot to be desired. In fairness to the then Minister, Deputy Roderic O'Gorman, who was responsible in 2022, 2023 and 2024, he was in a very difficult position.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I do not support amnesties. I think they are a bad idea. I think they condone rule-breaking.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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"Amnesty" is probably not the right word. It is more that if a child has been socialised here for two or three years, is it really an appropriate act by the State to remove them, whether it is three years, four years or whatever? I am not arguing the cut-off line.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, I will answer this in a different way. I think it is inappropriate of the State to take three years to process applications for a child.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Yes, so do I. That is my point. What happens in those cases?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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We need to speed up the process. The remedy is that we speed up the process.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I agree with the Minister on that, and I accept that changes have been made to the number of people being brought in, etc. However, in scenarios and cases like that, should we not be looking at them differently? Eventually, with all the Minister's work, it will get to the point where all of these cases are being dealt with in a speedy way and we will not have this issue. However, I am referring to scenarios where there are families left waiting for three, four, five years or longer and there are kids involved.
I do not want to use the word "amnesty" because I agree with the Minister on that point. However, is it appropriate that we are sending people out of the State after they have been socialised here for that length of time?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Let us deal with the specifics of it. There are 9,500 children in IPAS accommodation at present. We will say the number is 10,000. Let us say some of them have a lone parent and some will have two parents. Then we are talking about another 15,000 people, or 25,000 in total. Is the Deputy saying there is no issue and they can all stay here?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am not saying that. I am saying we need some form of rule whereby after whatever amount of time it is, we accept we have failed as a State in regard to how we process these people and, as a result of that failure-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy but it is not always the case that it is the State's failure. I will consider what he said but what will happen is there will be an interest in somebody trying to drag out the process for as long as possible-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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-----and I think that will create more problems in the long term.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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We can create rules and conditionality around co-operation. My point is that, in all fairness, where a case is genuine and it has gone on for whatever length of time we agree, whether it is four or five years or whatever, is it acceptable for the State to send people back when it has let those people down as regards the process? I accept the argument that people might elongate the process. However, my question is whether it is appropriate for the State to behave in that way? Local communities would fight and argue to try to keep these people.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I am told there are very few people here for three, four or five years. It is not like it was, say, ten years ago. I do not want to mislead the Deputy, and I take seriously what he is saying in terms of suggestions, but it is not a priority to which I am giving consideration.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Let me ask another question, seeing as the Minister's official wrote that note. Can he provide the number-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I will answer the question.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The Minister will not be able to answer it but he can come back to us on it.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I might be able to answer it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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If he can do so, he will be incredible. How many children who were under 16 when they arrived in Ireland are currently in IPAS accommodation for more than three years, four years, five years, six years and seven years? I would appreciate if the Minister could get back to the committee in writing on that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I did not expect to go on so long on that point.
I move now to my next question. I have a local electoral area, LEA, breakdown of all international protection and Ukrainian refugees across the country. I have four or five of those breakdowns because I asked the question four or five times. It took me a long time to get that information. It took the guts of four or five months, working with the Ceann Comhairle, to get it from the Department of children, which was previously the responsible Department. Has the Minister any concern in relation to the geographical distribution of how IPAS accommodation is provided? There seems to be significant differences across locations, with some LEAs taking more than others. In my own area of Roscrea, for instance, the last hotel in the town was taken out. It should be a rule of thumb by the way that this never happens again. Those contracts should never be allowed to be extended. Are there criteria for ensuring the situation is not lopsided in terms of the accommodation provision in certain local areas versus others?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Location is taken into consideration. When the contracts were entered into during the surge, there was very little option for the State to say-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely. We must be careful in how we refer to IPAS centres. I do not want a situation where there is a large concentration of IPAS centres in certain areas. They need to be distributed-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I agree completely, particularly in south Dublin.
I have one more quick question, which relates to State buildings. A lot of people get very frustrated about this. We can all go around the country and see many State buildings. I understand an audit of such buildings was being done and would be made available. By all accounts, that audit was not very successful. Does the Minister have an update on that? Have any new buildings been procured?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister has ten seconds to respond.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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We have identified barracks around the country that we use. We have purchased the Citywest Hotel and we want to buy other accommodation that will become State accommodation.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will allow Deputy Kelly to come in again later. The next speaker is Senator Rabbitte.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for his opening statement. I acknowledge the clarity and transparency he has brought to the whole conversation on immigration. One of the good developments that has happened under the Government is the moving of the responsibility for immigration back to the Department of justice. It has really assisted in the flow of movement of work. As a former Minister of State in the Department of children, I acknowledge the work of the officials there over the past number of years.
I want to focus on the issues of unaccompanied minors and trafficking of women. I have seen how some of the IPAS centres that are very small and bespoke, focusing specifically on women, have worked very successfully in rural areas. That has ensured people find shelter and comfort and, at the same time, get the opportunity to develop language and other skills and be supported in a focused way. It has worked really well. However, I am concerned as to exactly how we are supporting minors who could possibly find themselves in one of the IPAS centres, particularly the female ones. How are they being supported when issues arise? I have spoken previously about a young girl who was in University Hospital Galway for X number of weeks while they tried to get to the root of the matter, was it trafficking and what was the age of the young person. A whole debrief was done on her case. Can the Minister give me some clarity and comfort around that?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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First, I agree with the Senator that it was worthwhile to move the function from the Department of children to the Department of justice. It makes sense to have the accommodation function in the Department that processes the applications. I also am concerned about issues to do with trafficking. I have spoken to An Garda Síochána about it and the force has conducted serious investigations into it. I understand prosecutions will take place in this regard. That is not to say this is something that is prevalent or widespread in IPAS centres. It is not. If it subsequently transpires that an individual who is claiming asylum was a victim of human trafficking, that person will get better protection within the system.
The Senator also asked about minors. People with vulnerabilities are subject to a vulnerability assessment. In fact, all IP applicants receive vulnerability assessments on arrival. An unaccompanied minor will be assessed for vulnerability and protections are in place for them. The system is sophisticated in terms of recognising the frailties of individuals coming here who may be victims of trafficking or may be unaccompanied minors.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister. There is a sophistication in the system but what support do we give to the providers of the IPAS centres when they reach out to the Department for assistance and guidance? I am not saying the Department has not supported them. It has done so but I want to know whether there is a standard procedure in terms of how that support is given.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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We have a lot of non-governmental organisations at work within IPAS centres and we have a dedicated human trafficking section in IPAS to appraise, evaluate and report on these issues, if necessary. All these factors are taken into account. There is a recognition that these are issues that can arise. We have the mechanisms in place to ensure they are identified and reported if we believe they are occurring.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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My next question concerns Ukrainian people. We can see the numbers have dropped back dramatically. A large part of the work that went on during the Ukrainian humanitarian effort was very successful from a rural capacity perspective, with rural schools supported to continue in existence. As the drop-back in numbers takes place, we see a huge decline in some areas. In Woodford, County Galway, three small schools benefited hugely from the influx of young people and families into an area that was possibly in serious decline in the past. Does the Department keep consideration of the impact on a geographic location and the human impact of keeping that third teacher and the special needs assistant in a school when making the transfer from Woodford to Ballygobackwards anywhere in the country?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I note what the Senator said about Ukrainians coming here. In respect of Ukrainians who are beneficiaries of temporary protection and international protection applications, the vast majority of Irish people are extremely welcoming. The response of Ireland to applicants for asylum or temporary protection is, in comparison with other European countries, much more charitable and compassionate. That is my assessment of it.
The Senator spoke about how Ukrainians arriving into an area, and I am sure the same would apply to international protection applicants, can improve an area by getting numbers up in a school. They are not factors I take into account. I spent €1 billion last year on Ukrainian accommodation and €1 billion last year on international protection accommodation. I have to get those numbers down. If I do not, we will be spending €2 billion, €4 billion or €6 billion. It is not sustainable. To do that, we need to recognise that people are entitled to temporary accommodation while they are making their applications for international protection or 90 days of accommodation if the are beneficiaries of temporary protection and after that they have to move on or make their own way if they get status.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for his clarity.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I note for the record that Deputy Michael Murphy is substituting for Deputy Callaghan. I call Deputy Brabazon, to be followed by Senator McDowell.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for his presentation. It certainly brought great clarity to the Government's position on this area and I welcome that he is endeavouring to speed up the process. It is fair for both the taxpayer and asylum applicants that they are dealt with quickly and that decisions are not left hanging over people. That is an aspect of human rights that has been overlooked for a number of years.
In his presentation, the Minister mentioned that 5,000 people who have been granted status to remain in accommodation and that some of them are working but do not contribute to their accommodation costs. Recently I received a phone call from someone who had heard a story like that and was irate that a family member was paying extraordinary high rent in the Dublin area. The source of anger seemed to be that people from abroad who do not have as long a connection with the State as taxpayers and contributors to the economy were being accommodated for nothing. Is there a plan to change that or assist them? It is problematic because, in a lot of cases, we could end up adding to the already long social housing lists, but it is something we need to look at to bring about fairness between new Irish and Irish people who have a longer standing in the country.
A lady contacts me quite regularly about these matters. She is a reasonable lady and she is part of the pinched middle as it were. She is always keeping an eye on money that is being spent on taxpayers' behalf and gets quite rightly irate about the amount being spent on IPAS. That is one of her pet subjects that she contacts me about. She is a reasonable person to talk to and she knows her stuff. She mentioned a case she is aware of an individual who was granted asylum from a country and as soon as he applied for his passport, the first thing he did was book a flight to the country from which he claimed asylum. One of the big bugbears many people have is that taxpayers are being taken for a ride. This is probably an example of that. It probably does not come under the remit of the Minister's Department. It is probably more the remit of the Tánaiste's Department. However, would it be possible for us to consider dealing with those types of issues? Are there any policy measures we could take to deal with that type of scenario?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for his questions. He raised two issues. The first was the difficult situation that arises when people have been granted status to remain in Ireland, but remain living in international protection accommodation centres. That has to be dealt with sensitively, but it is not feasible for us to create a situation where people are allowed to stay there. The Department is not in the business of providing accommodation on a landlord-tenant basis. The good news is that already this year we have moved on 2,000 people who were granted status and have moved out of IPAS centres. For the IPAS accommodation process to operate efficiently, we need to have a system that people go through. People arrive, claim international protection, they are accommodated during the process and once they get status, they move elsewhere. If we find ourselves in a situation where people are permanently staying in international protection accommodation although they already have international protection, the system will become untenable and I will be doing what Deputy Guirke and everyone else on this committee do not want. I will be going around the country looking for hotels in which to accommodate people.
At present, approximately 5,000 people who have status are in IPAS accommodation. My officials are engaging with them and encouraging them to move on. It is important to get the message out that they have to move on. We will do it sensitively. Issues may arise where time is required, but they have to be moved on. Otherwise we will get into the business of providing accommodation to people who have the same social welfare entitlements and entitlement to social housing as anyone else in the country. The difficulties that could arise can be seen.
The Deputy mentioned a woman who contacts him. I am surprised by the story. An individual who is granted asylum is not entitled to get a passport. It may be the case that the woman the Deputy is talking to is aware of someone who applied for citizenship, was granted it and got an Irish passport. If people have an Irish passport, they are entitled to travel wherever they want.
Michael McDowell (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister.
Is it the case that people who are granted refugee status are free to travel backwards and forwards to their countries of origin without control? There is control at an airport, but are they free to enter and re-enter their countries of origin and come back to Ireland or is a check kept on that?
Second, the Minister mentioned that 2,846 deportation orders were made this year. How many voluntary deportations took place and how many involuntary deportations have taken place in respect of those 2,846 people? Does the making of a deportation order end the right to accommodation immediately?
On the number of international protection applicants, the Minister's predecessor, Deputy O'Gorman, a few years ago spoke about a new normal of 30,000. It looks as though the number is 15,000 per annum at the moment or thereabouts. Deputy McEntee was the Minister's immediate predecessor. She said when she was Minister for Justice that 80% of international protection applicants applying in Ireland have travelled through the United Kingdom. Is that still the case or is it a different proportion?
The Minister said that it costs him €1 billion per annum to accommodate Ukrainian people receiving protection from the Ukrainian war and €1.2 billion for others. Am I correct that this is an annual budget for accommodation of over €2.2 billion? Will he confirm that?
The Minister mentioned the rate card. Has that been published? Is it available for the public to see?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I will answer the Senator's questions in reverse. The rate card has not been published. It is not available for the public to see.
The Senator is right about the €2.2 billion-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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It is confidential in that we do not want people with whom we are negotiating to see that we have a rate card. We have an internal basis of assessing what we should offer per person per night to individuals. We believe putting that information into the public domain would be commercially naive.
The Senator is correct about the €2.2 billion. That is what we spent on international protection accommodation and Ukrainian accommodation in 2024. He also asked about when the then Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, said that 30,000 was the new normal. The Senator sees it as being maybe 15,000. I still think those numbers are too high. What we have seen in the years when there was a surge, namely 2022, 2023 and 2024, is that may have been a consequence from what was happening as a result of the Covid years when people did not come through. I certainly want to see numbers under 10,000. It is difficult for that to be controlled. In terms of the measures I introduce, however, that is an effective way of trying to do it.
Senator McDowell also spoke about deportation orders. Some 3,029 deportation orders have been issued this year. There have also been 1,159 voluntary returns and there have been 278 enforced deportations whether by charter, private or self-deporations. In total this year, we have seen 1,461 repatriations in the context of what the Senator said.
As regards doorstepping people at Dublin airport, this method has been very effective in terms of seeking to prevent individuals arriving into the country without documentation. There have been 4,154 doorsteps carried out this year to the end of August 2025.
The Senator also asked about my predecessor's comment regarding the majority of people coming and seeking international protection here, whether they are coming through Dublin Airport or over the Border. Up to 19 September, that 87.66% of applicants for international protection made their applications at the International Protection Office. We believe this is indicative that a number very close to that-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What is the percentage?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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It is 87.66%. It suggests, and I think it is a fairly strong basis to suggest it, that the overwhelming majority of people who are claiming international protection in Ireland are arriving over the Border. They are coming from the United Kingdom, arriving into Northern Ireland and coming down and claiming international protection in Ireland. The reason we say that is because if somebody arrives into Dublin Airport or one of the ports and wants to claim asylum, he or she will do it there and then. Therefore, if we are trying to identify the make-up of international protection applicants, it is clear that most are coming from Britain. That makes it difficult for us. We fought for many years, appropriately and successfully, to keep the Border open but, obviously, the common travel area is an agreement for the benefit of citizens of Ireland and the UK. It is not for the benefit of citizens of other jurisdictions. Therefore, it is unlawful for a person outside of Ireland and UK citizenship to travel across the Border like that. However, it does indicate that a significant number of the issues we have to deal with derive from the UK. Similarly, my UK counterpart has concerns about people arriving into Dublin, going up to Belfast and travelling over to the UK.
The Senator also asked whether asylum applicants who arrive in Ireland and are granted their status can travel back to the country from where they came. If they get citizenship, obviously, they are allowed to travel anywhere. If they get asylum, they are entitled to have asylum here, but that will not get them into another country. They cannot and should not be seeking asylum in other countries. In terms of going back to the country from where they came, I suppose it looks like it is contradictory in terms of what they made out on their application. However, this it is not something in respect of which I have information to the effect that it is happening.
Michael McDowell (Independent)
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It does seem a bit ridiculous that people would come from a country - I will not mention a particular country - fly backwards and forwards to do business and all the rest of it and be made refugees.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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It certainly would undermine the veracity of their claims.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There is one question in respect of which the committee would benefit from receiving an answer. It relates to those who are the subject of deportation orders and their right to accommodation.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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That is a very good point. I am sorry; that was one I missed. There are a small number of people in IPAS who have had deportation orders served on them. In terms of giving effect to those orders, they can be removed from the country. I changed the law in order that people can be detained not just for seven days but for 42. People who are the subject of deportation orders are not entitled to be in IPAS accommodation. They have been refused permission to be in the country. Similarly, if they have been granted it, they should move on and, in this instance, move out of the country. That is why we give effect to enforce deportation.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy O'Sullivan is next. He will be followed by Deputy Butterly.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair for ensuring that we are having this debate, particularly as it is something the wider public have been talking about for some time.
I live beside a direct provision centre and have done so for 25 years. Anybody who has ever come through the gates of Ashbourne House Hotel has always been welcomed by the community and been well integrated. Notwithstanding that, recent debates have obviously changed to the whole idea of people profiteering from this in recent years.
The Minister spoke how we were in an emergency situation. When I became a member of the public petitions committee a number of years ago, I recall the then Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, came before us with a White Paper and stated that we were going to abolish direct provision. That gives us a picture of how big an emergency or crisis this has been. This is not my opportunity to take potshots at him or anything. He had to deal with that crisis as best he could.
My initial question follows on from what Senator McDowell sought in terms of clarification around the numbers of voluntary and forced deportation notices for 2024 and this year. I tabled parliamentary questions on this matter a number of times and received some information. Ultimately, however, what I would like to know is about cases where we tell people they have to leave voluntarily. What happens after a notice is served? I am hearing different things from around the country about people just ignoring these notices. What happens in that scenario? People up sticks and move to a different part of the country. They probably go underground in some cases. What happens in circumstances where people are served with voluntary deportation orders?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with the Deputy. This is a worthwhile debate. What I have sought to do is provide as much information to Oireachtas Members as possible, and that will inform the debate. There are also IPAS centres in the area where I live. I do not have any issue with them. The vast majority of people accommodated in IPAS centres are decent, hardworking individuals.
In terms of profiteering, a huge number of the contracts we entered into were obviously with the private sector. Every private company that is involved in a contract with the State for the provision of services does it for the purpose of making a profit. What the Deputy probably means in terms of profiteering is that many firms were using what was a crisis to extract the maximum amount from the State, and that probably was the case. They probably were able to extract more than would have been the case had we not had a surge.
I acknowledge the position in which the former Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, found himself. It was extremely difficult to be the Minister responsible for accommodation at a time when there were tents out on the streets because 18,500 people had arrived into the country. He had to go around frantically looking for accommodation. He was legally obliged to do that. It was not an easy thing for him.
As stated, there have been 3,029 deportation orders signed this year. What happens when an order is signed? Somebody is required to leave the country. If he or she does not leave the country, he or she is committing a criminal offence. That person can be arrested by An Garda Síochána and detained for up to 42 days. That happens frequently. It has happened a lot in terms of the enforced deportations that have taken place.
There are many people who have deportation orders who have not been subject to either an enforced removal or an agreement to voluntarily return. However, I am informed that it is extremely difficult for people to stay in Ireland if they have a deportation order. They simply cannot work so it makes it difficult to subsist and to continue to operate here. Sometimes there is frustration because we cannot give specific details of what has happened to individuals but we believe that most people who have been served with deportation orders ultimately leave.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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How does the Minister actually quantify it? That is what I am trying to discern here.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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It is difficult to quantify. I cannot quantify it for the Deputy. As I said, this year we have had 1,461 repatriations, both deportations and voluntary returns. We have already served 3,029 deportation orders this year. Obviously not all of those people have been removed yet but we believe that a very significant number of them will have left the country. They may go back into the UK or other parts of Europe if they do not get asylum here. The plan of people who are refused asylum is to come here because they want to work. That is a perfectly legitimate aspiration but the asylum process is not the correct forum for it. If they cannot work here, they will go to another country.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister said that when he took over there were 3,000 unaccommodated international protection applicants. That figure is down to 600 today. When the Minister says "unaccommodated", does he know how many of them are in tents? Are any of them in tents or are they in emergency accommodation in hotels? If it is the latter, what is the cost for them as against the cost for people in regular, contracted accommodation?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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They are unaccommodated. There are 600 of them now and there were 3,000 of them last year. We do not know where they are but they are not in emergency accommodation. There is no emergency accommodation for homeless IPAS people as there is for people who are homeless and on the list. What we do, however, for people to whom we cannot offer accommodation is pay them a sum of €113.80 per week. We have a situation where there were 3,500 such people but that is now down to 600. We have gone back to many of them and offered them accommodation but a significant number do not want it.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister said that around 5,000 people remain in accommodation after they were supposed to leave. I have come across quite a few people in my own work locally who are occupying IPAS accommodation and working full time. Of course, finding a rental property is the big question for a lot of them, particularly in urban environments. What is the plan for those 5,000 people? We looked at modular accommodation in Mahon in the Taoiseach's constituency but that cost nearly €400,000 per unit. That is not practical in the emergency situation in which we still find ourselves.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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They have to leave the IPAS accommodation and if they have status, they can apply for HAP and for the other welfare benefits available to those on the ordinary housing list. They can get on the housing list and they can apply for HAP but what they cannot do is continue to occupy IPAS accommodation-----
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but 5,000 is a significant number. Where do they all go in the current environment?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I know, but in fairness, as I said, 3,000 have been moved on already this year so there is success there. The officials are doing a very good job in getting people through the system and out but it will not work if we find ourselves in a situation where the Department of justice is in the business of providing long-term accommodation to people who have status. In that case, we are just a landlord.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for coming in today. In many ways this discussion has dispelled a lot of the myths out there regarding IPAS. An awful lot of progress has been made since IPAS has come in under the Department of justice. We are ramping up the first-instance decisions but I note that there seems to be a slight increase in appeals. As the number of first-instance decisions increases, are there any plans or proposals for dealing with potential backlogs in IPAT?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy and agree that this is worthwhile discussion in terms of dispelling myths. The Deputy is right about IPAT. We have done extremely well in processing applications. We have processed a significant number of applications this year. My officials will give me the exact number presently but in terms of IPAT, the Deputy is right. At present, in 2025, 4,113 appeals have been completed in IPAT. However, there are 15,624 appeals on hand at IPAT. One of the reasons I want to expedite the process is that if someone gets a first-instance decision from the IPO within six months, is refused permission to stay and decides to appeal it, he or she still cannot work. There is a significant benefit in ensuring that we get the first-instance decision completed promptly. I have recruited many full-time and part-time members to IPAT in recent times but the Deputy has correctly identified the area where there are delays at present.
As the committee knows, we will be bringing an international protection Bill to the Oireachtas later this year. I want to cut down on the oral hearings at the second-instance body, the replacement for IPAT, because they are delaying the work considerably. To date in 2025, the IPO has processed a total of 14,398 first-instance decisions. We are moving very fast there and a lot of the IPO decisions are being made within three to six months. If we can get into a system where that is happening consistently then people will get decisions quickly and the accommodation will not come under pressure because applicants know they will have to leave and they cannot work if they are refused.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I want to compliment the Minister because between Leader's Questions and this committee, he has been answering questions since 2 p.m. I admire his energy. How many are working on the civic engagement team?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for his kind words about answering questions but there is no way around it. We have an excellent civic engagement team. I know from the Deputy's experience in Dundrum, on which I have engaged with him quite significantly, that the team within the Department gets involved with people in the local community. I understand that there are six civil servants in the civic engagement team and three external experts.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Does the Minister think that is enough, considering the number of centres around the country? I ask that in the context of the new modular unit development for Ukrainian families in Clonmel. That comprises 82 units constructed at a cost in excess of €40 million. The units were formally occupied in July of this year but there has been no engagement with local residents. I am talking about residents living within 250 m of this development. There has been no engagement with local residents in 14 months. Does the Minister think that is good enough? Is that fair to local residents?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I will certainly look into that. Obviously if the local residents had sought engagement in respect of what was happening in Clonmel, there should have been engagement. My own experience in terms of Citywest, for example, is that there has been excellent engagement between officials in my Department, local representatives and the local community. In fairness to the civil servants in the Department, I generally hear very positive feedback about engagement. I will certainly follow up within the Department on engagement in Clonmel in respect of the 82 units.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The Minister may not be aware of this but on 9 June, I wrote to the Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW and shared that correspondence with his Department. Notwithstanding my fears at the time around the costs associated with that project, my real fear was the potential for anti-social behaviour and vandalism. It is a well known fact that during construction on that site, Sisk, the company involved, directly employed a security company. Many of the security operatives were from the UK.
My concern was that once they left the site, there was potential for antisocial behaviour and vandalism. There is a reason for that which I will not go into at this committee meeting today but I am sure the Minister will make his own inquiries. Fifty of the families attended a meeting with the superintendent of Clonmel Garda station following the most serious of incidents last Tuesday night. I appeal to the Minister to engage with colleagues in An Garda Síochána.
I want to refer to a message I received from one of the Ukrainian families living at the site. Its subject is the dangerous situation at the Clonmel modular homes and it states the Ukrainian families who live in them constantly face a hostile attitude. It adds that during their time there, there have been busted windows, broken fences and stolen scooters and bikes, and that their children are constantly provoked. The message states the families fixed everything and called the Garda but that the situation is escalating. I am a proud Clonmel man and am very concerned. There is a direct reason for what I am referring to and I will be happy to engage with the Minister on it outside this committee meeting, but I appeal to him to engage with An Garda Síochána because the message I am giving is not the one we want to see on the front pages of our newspapers.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I am really concerned. The concerns tie into the concerns of local residents. It is my understanding that residents attempted to reach out to the civic engagement team and that the levels the Minister spoke about no longer obtain, but that is perhaps for another day. That is all I have to say about the modular homes in Clonmel.
I want to talk about Dundrum for a minute and my concerns over the contract entered into by the Department with a company that was incorporated only in January of this year. The concerns are well noted. There are so many layers of complexity around Dundrum House Hotel. It is an iconic landmark that dates from the 18th century and it has such a such a strong connection with it. People are really concerned about its future. There are so many layers of complexity and so many matters before the courts, and for that reason I will not go into the ownership concerns. The concerns were well flagged before the contract was entered into, in January of this year. How the Department could enter into a contract with a company that was incorporated only in January of this year and with no track record in hospitality beggars belief. There are other matters before the courts as well.
I want to understand section 5. If an individual comes to the Minister with an offer of accommodation, is a critical component of the offer that the individual must have section 5 permission in their hand? If they do not have that, is that the end of it and are there no further negotiations on the offer?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Murphy for updating me further on the very unpleasant experience that many of the Ukrainians in the modular homes in Clonmel appear to have had. I am very pleased that the superintendent there has been apprised of this, and I will be happy to engage with An Garda Síochána in respect of it.
An issue we have not spoken about today but that, regrettably, has to be mentioned is that on too many occasions people engage in criminal activity and criminal behaviour against IPAS centres and, worse, the individuals within them. As I have said repeatedly, people have an entitlement to claim asylum in Ireland. If they seek to do so, we have an obligation to provide them with accommodation. Everything we are doing here is complying with the law. As I have said repeatedly, we need to have a rules-based system applying here. There should be no criminal damage perpetrated against any property and no intimidation of individuals providing security. I regret to say that much of this has been orchestrated for broader political purposes.
With regard to Dundrum House Hotel, in fairness to Deputy Murphy, he has discussed this with me repeatedly. I am aware of his concerns and the historic nature of the building. His specific question was why the Department entered into a contract with the corporate entity with no track record. That would not preclude a contract being entered into. As I said at the outset, there are factors taken into account when the Department and I are entering into contracts with accommodation providers. We consider location and we now consider price and services available. I am very aware that there is an ongoing court case on Dundrum House Hotel. I am not a party to it but the decision may have an impact with respect to what I can or cannot do. At present, there is the issue in respect of a section 5 exemption. I cannot enter into a contract with an accommodation provider for an IPAS centre unless that accommodation provider has planning permission to put in emergency IPAS accommodation. That is where section 5 comes in. I could not enter into a contract with somebody who did not have the appropriate planning permission.
Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister and his officials. I thank him for his work since he took office. He has got a grip on this. It is a difficult area and he is doing a very good job. I believe that has been acknowledged by all.
I have a declaration to make. My wife received an email from Bed and Breakfast Ireland on behalf of the Department, which was urgently looking for accommodation for Ukrainians following the outbreak of the war. Bed and Breakfast Ireland hosted a national webinar at the time. My wife currently has a contract for five rooms and has five Ukrainians staying. When she was contacted first, she offered seven rooms. She was asked for ten, which I believe was the minimum number required at the time. When the Department was overwhelmed with the sheer volume coming into the country, we were getting calls every day. We have a small operation. I was interviewed by Radio Kerry at the time and subsequently contacted by many accommodation providers because, to be honest about it, they were wary in the early days. Some Ukrainians went back home and more went to Canada, availing of the likes of APR schemes. Others moved to other parts of the country. Beds have not been refilled for the obvious reason that the numbers have dropped. I am aware that the Department has closed many smaller operations because some were non-compliant, etc.
On the other side of it, the international protection was good for rural schools. I was aware of and was contacted by many smaller rural schools in south Kerry that were short of one or two pupils. Ukrainian children made up the shortfall and the schools secured their extra teacher. That has changed again because the children have been moved on to other places, and some have gone back home or to Canada, etc. International protection has also been good for areas affected by rural depopulation. It has also been good for GAA clubs. I can name a number of GAA clubs in Kerry with Ukrainians playing for them. They are bloody well glad to have them. An example is Valentia Island, where the great Mick O’Connell hails from. I was very happy to meet him the other morning. He is in good health all the time. My regards to him and his son, Diarmuid, who was with him. Many businesses were delighted to be able to hire Ukrainians because they simply could not get staff. I am talking about south Kerry, the area I know best. The businesses were very disappointed when the Ukrainians moved on, some to other countries. I spoke to hoteliers who had trained in Ukrainians and had them working for them for a couple of years. Next thing they were gone. I should say before I make my very last point that I am aware of Irish people in relationships with Ukrainians and who are engaged to get married to Ukrainians. That is good as well.
Please give consideration to the children.
They have already made a big move from their homes. Many have no homes. I know many of their stories that I do not have to repeat here today. They are very tragic stories. Many have no families left. This idea of moving them once, twice or three times is not fair. We need to give these children fair consideration.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Will the Minister answer the charge that his Department has provided Kerry with more footballers?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I know. God, they have enough already.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It was the last thing that was needed.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The same in Tipperary with hurlers.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Cahill. The first thing I want to say is I was slightly concerned when I heard him making a declaration. The Deputy's wife is not involved in any wrongdoing. She is perfectly entitled-----
Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I know that but just in case.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Whatever. We need to be cautious. There is a legitimate point to be made that we need to cut down on expenditure and that the State needs to be much more careful in spending money. As I said, because of the surge and the crises in 2022, 2023 and 2024, contracts were entered into and we had to enter into them rapidly. People who provide accommodation and enter into contracts with the State are not doing anything wrong. It is a commercial enterprise they are involved in.
I note what the Deputy stated about Ukrainians. What I am seeking to do is cut down on the cost to the State in terms of providing accommodation to Ukrainians or international protection applicants. I have no doubt that both groups make a great contribution in Ireland. I have listened very carefully to what the Deputy said about the contribution of Ukrainian people and children in south Kerry and how they have played a role in dealing with the depopulation of the area. There is no reason why they cannot stay but what I cannot do, and what the State cannot do, is provide endless subsidised or free accommodation. We cannot do that. Very many people have come in, whether they are asylum applicants or beneficiaries of temporary protection. They come in, get themselves up on their feet, the State provides a certain amount of accommodation and then they go off and do their own thing. That is happening across the board. I am very pleased to hear-----
Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to acknowledge that as well and the work the Minister has been doing in that area.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister has 40 seconds.
Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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It has been broadly welcomed, to be fair.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The problem is - I will use this as an example, and Deputy Cahill has spoken about Ukrainians but this can apply to IPAS centres as well - if there is a property that, say, has 100 people in it in one part of Kerry and there is another property, say, in Limerick that has 100 people, and if there is space in each one for another 50 or something like that, we need to amalgamate them. I refer to the cost of these buildings. Nobody is going to rent a building on the basis of it depending on how many people you can put into it. They are going to say that there are 100 spaces here, you can rent it from the landlord for X amount per person, per night. What I cannot do is have 50% of one place occupied and 50% of another place occupied, and we are paying 100% on both. Efficiencies need to be put in.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I have a number of comments and a couple of questions. I thank the Minister and his officials again for this engagement, which, as I understand it, is the first dedicated Oireachtas committee engagement to the whole issue of international protection. Considering how prevalent it has been in public discourse over the past number of years, it is really important that people see their elected representatives having these discussions in a fair and balanced way.
The Minister has contextualised the past couple of years and how we got to the point where we were and are spending €1.2 billion from the Department's perspective. However, there should also be an acknowledgment that whatever the reasons or the background, the enrichment of some individuals - and there was some enrichment of a number of individuals who benefited from the IPAS system - increased a lot of the tensions and resentment occurring within local communities and undermined public confidence in the overall immigration system in Ireland. I think that implicit in the Minister's opening remarks is an acceptance that there were failings. I do not know if he would accept that characterisation.
Moving on, the Minister has talked about improved transparency and I welcome that language but to talk about transparency and then say we are not going to publish rate cards, with regard to what IPAS providers are currently getting paid, is a dichotomy. Is the Minister in a position to indicate what the highest rate per bed, per day is at the moment?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I can indicate what the average rate is at present. Will I deal with the questions the Chair has raised first?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That was just some commentary. If the Minister wants to comment-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I will answer those and the Chair can come back. I think he is right about contextualising it.
The Chair said that the enrichment of individuals "increased a lot of the tensions" in local communities. He is entitled to have that view but my own view is that because of the numbers that were coming in - we saw 45,000 international protection applicants coming in - those numbers were necessarily going to result in people making profits. Commercial providers are in the business of trying to make profit. We did not have State accommodation to accommodate the 45,000 people. We went around. I have no doubt that because of the inflated numbers, inflated prices were probably paid but even if we had the most efficient system that operated at the time under no pressure, individuals and companies were still going to make money out of this. We cannot get away from that. Even if I managed to introduce all the efficiencies I wanted to, these companies the Chair is talking about are still going to make money because they are in the business of profit. My job is to try to make sure that the taxpayer and the State gets value for money.
On the average at present, an average is a difficult thing because a lot of the contracts were entered into one, two or three years ago.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Minister to be mindful of time.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The average is now €71 per person, per night. There were obviously figures above and below that. There was an economic evaluation service paper that indicated the average last year was higher than that. My officials say the average last year, 2024, was approximately €84 per person, per night. It is coming down; we have got it down to €71 per person, per night as the average.
I have to say to the Chair that the reason we are hesitant about putting this information out there is that there are still negotiations ongoing with providers. When their contracts expire, we will probably need to renew them. I want to renew them at a reduced rate. I do not want the word going around with everyone thinking they are guaranteed-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am mindful of my own time and I have been strict on other members.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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-----to get €71 per person, per night. They will not be getting that.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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This is probably a conversation we will have. My view is that there should be a very clear cap with regard to the payment to anybody who is willing to engage. I do not need the Minister to comment on that.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister talked about some of the mechanisms in place as regards companies that are receiving funds. Does the Department still use intermediaries for sourcing beds?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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When did that practice end?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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It ended a year and a half ago and I am informed that it was very rarely used.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. The Minister is talking about tax-compliant companies, which is good to hear.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister have mechanisms to ensure the companies in receipt of these State funds are not offshoring their profits for tax avoidance purposes?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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As we are a European Union country, we have to permit any European Union company to bid for the contracts for IPAS. Any European Union company can bid for it.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking specifically about companies that are registered in tax havens, for example, as opposed to other EU states.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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All companies that we enter into contracts with must be registered with the Companies Registration Office.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. With regard to the background checks, both Deputies Guirke and Murphy have cited examples of companies that would have shocked people. They were either set up very quickly or had previously been found to have provided false documents to another State agency. The Minister is aware of one company that was reported in the media that had previously been on the tax defaulters list in 2021. In 2022, it then secured an IPAS contract. Profits rose in that company from €56,000 to €1.3 million. It subsequently emerged that Revenue had previously wound up two of the principal's other firms. This is before the Minister's time. My question, quite simply, is could something like that happen under the current arrangements?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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A company can have a tax clearance certificate and may, in the past, have been involved in tax wrongdoing.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is that taken into consideration by the Minister's Department?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The way it is taken into consideration is, if the company has a tax clearance certificate, that indicates it is tax compliant. It may be hard to get a tax clearance certificate if a company was previously engaged in tax wrongdoing but as years pass by, and if the company gets its tax affairs in order and, of course, has paid its penalties-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What about a previous record? If the directors of a company or the company itself had previously had a State contract and did a really bad job, is that taken into-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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As I said, they have to have complied with public service contracts in the past. If there was a public service contract in the past that the company had not complied with, we would not enter into a contract with that company. Companies have separate corporate identities, Chairman.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, thank you. I am noticing that quite a number of members have stayed. We have to be out of here by 2.30 a.m., so I am going to have to apply a two-minute clock. Actually, I meant 5.30 p.m. The Minister has had a tough job answering questions since 2 p.m., but in my defence, I have had to listen to them since 2 p.m. as well.
Deputy Guirke is next with two minutes.
Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Just to say, in any correspondence I have had with the Minister, her has been very helpful and I appreciate that.
I have a couple of quick questions that I will ask together. Of those who have received voluntary deportation orders, how many have not gone home and are missing in the State? How widespread is that? What measures have been taken with people who destroy documentation? We hear about it a lot in the media and I want to know how widespread it is or if it is widespread at all.
State accommodation costs are €12,000 per year, compared to €33,000-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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It should be €30,000 for private accommodation.
Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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That is two and half times more than the State accommodation, so it is a no-brainer to have State accommodation.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Of course. I agree with the Deputy.
Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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The State currently provides accommodation to 33,000 people in emergency accommodation. How do we get those numbers down?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate the concern that members have in respect of these issues and it is my job to provide them with information.
In respect of deportations and repatriations, 1,461 have been effected this year. People who have been served with a deportation order cannot work here or get social welfare benefits. It is extremely difficult for them to operate here. The information I have, which is corroborated by the Garda, is that they ultimately leave the country. They cannot operate here.
Regarding doorsteps, 4,154 doorsteps were carried out from January to the end of August 2025. They are effective in trying to respond to people arriving here without documentation.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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To clarify, is that number for individuals or flights?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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It was 4,154 flights. It is a lot. I was doorstepped myself recently coming off a flight. It is a very effective mechanism.
Deputy Guirke mentioned how State accommodation cost €12,000 and private accommodation cost €30,000. Of course we should be getting the level of State accommodation up, and I have got it up. Last year, there were 900 State-owned accommodation units. This year, there are 4,000. My goal is to get 14,000 by 2028, with Citywest as part of that process. The Deputy asked how we can get it down-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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At the end, I might ask the Minister to clean up any unanswered questions-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy's last question was how do we get it down-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Minister to come in at the end on that. I want to make sure all members have the opportunity. Deputy Gannon is next.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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We will go for a lightning round. How many people are currently in prisons awaiting deportation? How many people have spent time in prisons this year awaiting deportation?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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There are some people at present in prison who have not yet been deported. Regarding enforced deportations and people removed via charter flights, I think the number is probably around 200. Last year, there were 200 imprisoned and I think this year there are around 278 or 280, but the number is bigger than that in terms of people who are imprisoned.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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They are going to prisons that are overcrowded. Dóchas, for example, is operating at 141% and yet it has had more than a few people sent there awaiting deportation. What is the impact of that on the prison population and how many people have been released who have committed crimes to make space for those coming in awaiting deportation?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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While we do have prison overcrowding, the solution to prison overcrowding is not to say there are a certain group of people whom we will allow to break the law without there being-----
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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How many violent offenders have been allowed out of prison?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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How many what?
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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How many people who have committed violent crimes-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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No one is released from prison deliberately to accommodate somebody who is the subject of a deportation order.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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When we have overcrowded prisons, there have been scenarios where people who have committed crimes, sometimes violent, have been allowed out of prisons.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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No one has been released because there is a deportation person coming in and we need the space to release somebody. It does not operate like that.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Okay. That is not done.
I will move on. The Minister mentioned to Deputy Kelly earlier that there were 9,494 children in IPAS accommodation and he talked about an amnesty. How many of those children are awaiting deportations? I will be quick on this but I know there were 197 as of May of this year.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Did the Deputy say 197?
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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There were 197 children, I believe, as of May this year who were awaiting deportation. What is the average length of time they have spent in the country?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of the number of children, there are 9,000 children. The vast majority of them are applying for international protection. Regarding the numbers who have deportation orders, I would say it is more than 200 now. Very few of them have been in the country for three or four years.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Do we have the number for how many of them have been in the country for longer than two years?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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We will get it for the committee but it is very few.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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It would be great if we could get the average length of time.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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It is very few. The days of people staying here for three, four or five years do not happen anymore.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Excellent. What protocols have been put in place with the Garda to monitor violent or intimidating far right protests at deportation centres?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy can put that on his list of questions for the end.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Very quickly, I want to reiterate my appeal to the Minister to intervene in the issues I outlined regarding the modular unit site in Clonmel. To reiterate, the issues are directly linked to the location of the site and I fear that a failure to intervene will make national headlines before long.
I have two quick questions. Regarding that particular development, what is the plan for the 600-odd modular units around the country beyond Ukrainian families? There are 83 modular units in Clonmel with an investment of €40 million. What is the plan for those units once Ukrainians leave?
Where the Department enters into contracts with hotels - in Alan Kelly's case, perhaps the only hotel in Roscrea and in the case of Dundrum, the only hotel within a 30 km or 40 km radius - and those contracts expire, is it the intention not to renew those contracts?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Can I come in on that?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding Gary Gannon's question, I speak frequently with the Garda Commissioner and senior gardaí about the threat posed by the far right. The Garda has a lot of information in respect of that. It is aware of any threats to IPAS centres and is doing very good work in respect of it.
In terms of the modular units in Clonmel raised by Deputy Murphy, I hear what he said and there will be engagement with the Garda on that. I am conscious I am here talking about IPAS whereas Ukrainians are a separate issue, although within my responsibilities as well. Once the Ukrainian families leave, we hope the accommodation units can go back into whatever traditional use they had. The State and I do not want to be in the business of leasing property. It is difficult to predict what is going happen in Ukraine but any person coming from Ukraine now only has 90-day accommodation, so he or she will not have permanent accommodation. In fact, we are one of the few European Union countries where all that is required under the terms of temporary accommodation is that we provide access to accommodation, not accommodation itself. For IPAS, we have to provide accommodation for temporary protection and access to it.
A very interesting question is the question put forward by Deputy Guirke as to what we can do to get the 33,000 figure down. We need to speed up the processing of applications. If we can speed them up and have them heard within three to four months at first instance, that will have a significant impact because people will get an immediate decision before they are entitled to work. If they are not entitled to international protection, they will not see the benefit of coming here.
Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I sent details of a young refugee in Cahersiveen recently with regard to her family in Gaza, specifically regarding family reunification. I understand the Minister has discretion to accept UNRWA cards as sufficient proof of refugee status for family reunification or humanitarian admission and that a family can be admitted under section 60 of the International Protection Act 2015.
That section gives the Minister discretionary power to allow someone to enter Ireland for humanitarian reasons even if they do not meet normal family reunification criteria. This young lady has huge support locally. I and my son met with her and community representatives there recently. I would appreciate anything the Minister can do in this regard. It is not easy. I fully understand that, but we have seen where the Government has assisted in helping students and sports people to leave Gaza already. Is there anything the Minister can do for the community in Cahersiveen in regards to this young lady? Her story is well known in the media in Kerry, etc.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I hear what the Deputy says. A lot has been done by the Department in terms of people fleeing the slaughter in Gaza. Medevac which I am working on with the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, has resulted in many people needing medical attention coming here. Student visas have been issued for people coming here from Gaza. There were sports clubs that came during August that got visas and went back home. We are very sympathetic to it, but what cannot happen is that we have this haphazard discretionary basis - I am not suggesting the Deputy is advocating this - whereby a Minister will say, "Sure, we will let this." I want a rules-based system. If we have a rules-based system, at least everyone will be able to understand how it operates and people will know the basis upon which decisions are being made.
Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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I thank the Chair for letting me in. I have just a couple of questions. Maybe they have been asked already.
In relation to the airline fines, how much has the Department gained on the airline fines? What is the increase in the number of gardaí in the people trafficking unit? Has the Minister increased the numbers there? I would appreciate it if the Minister would give me an update on Thornton Hall, in relation to the prison aspect of it but also the IPAS centre there.
On unaccompanied minors and housing, and where they are put in to housing, what is the Minister doing in relation to age verification of those minors? That is an important issue.
Does the Minister believe that the private companies being used for asylum accommodation have any material impact on the housing crisis?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I will answer them as quickly as I can. On airline fines, I will have to forward the Senator that information. I do not have it to hand.
In terms of gardaí in trafficking units, there is a unit within An Garda Síochána that deals with human trafficking. I have been out to see them in their location. They do excellent work. There is also a very significant section within the Garda that deals with deportation orders.
In terms of Thornton Hall, the long-term plan there is to develop it for a prison as was originally planned 20 years ago but there are no plans for an IPAS centre at present.
Unaccompanied minors is an issue that is obviously for Tusla to determine and Tusla has a big involvement in that. In terms of the new legislation that I am introducing, the Senator will see that it contains a new provision which deals with age verification when there is some dispute as to whether the applicant is a minor or not.
As for whether the private companies are impacting the housing crisis, I do not believe they are. Many of the units are not units where people could live in the long term. They are fairly spartan, notwithstanding their cost. They are rooms that you would not have long-term accommodation in and that is why I think they probably are not impacting the housing crisis.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I have a couple of brief questions. The Minister mentioned earlier that 87.66% of IPAS applicants do not apply at airports or ports. Is that correct?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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A total of 87.66% of IPO applicants are applying at the IPO office, so they are not applying at ports or-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I suppose the inference is that-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The suspicion is that they are coming over the Border. They could apply at an airport or a port when they arrive in the first instance.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister have the number of international protection applicants who had previously come into the State on employment, student or tourist visas?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have that data. We probably could get it.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I sought it through parliamentary questions and have not been able to get it. To be quite honest, it seems bizarre that the Minister would not have that.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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When somebody comes in to the country and claims asylum, they are fingerprinted and checked on Eurodac. There is a system in place across the European Union.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What I am discussing is people who came to the State legitimately on a visa, whether that be employment, student or tourist, and subsequently made an application for international protection. It would be useful information to have a sense of-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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It might be. I agree with you.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----whether those visas are being abused by some or whether there is an impact on the IPO.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I will tell you where visas are being abused. The biggest cause of people coming to Ireland and claiming international protection is people who overstay visas in the UK. People from Nigeria and Pakistan are in the top three claiming international asylum at present. A lot of people who arrive into the UK on visas and overstay them come here to claim asylum.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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And then claim international protection. Are they all now within the accelerated procedure?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Nigeria is within the accelerated procedure, as is Pakistan.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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That is being dealt with at present. The good news is that is being dealt with within three to four months now at first instance.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Finally, Deputy Murphy touched on the communities that lost an amenity, particularly a hotel, for what was described at the time as a temporary emergency provision. There is one in my own constituency, a hotel. This is going back to 2018, when a hotel was overnight turned into emergency accommodation and the local community rallied and supported those who have been there ever since. At some point, people have a right to ask when will get their amenity back. What is happening in such instances?
The Department can understand it has a place, there are X number of people being housed there and that is a box ticked, but from a local community's point of view, it gets to the stage where their goodwill that has been there for a number of years is being stretched.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I can appreciate the upset that can be caused in a local community if the last hotel in the town is an active hotel and it is taken over for whatever reason outside of being in hospitality sector but the policy, and I have continued this, is that we do not take over the last hotel in the town. The Cathaoirleach's concern is about the ones that were taken in the past. I do not want to be in the business of being a landlord. I want to get out of the accommodation business. Hopefully, when the Ukraine numbers decline, if we can get proper control over the international protection numbers coming in and get them down and we have a manageable number coming in each year, we will be in a situation whereby with increasing State accommodation we will not find ourselves in a crisis situation of having to get hotels.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Murphy has approximately 10 seconds.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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It is more of an observation, reflecting on my time as a councillor before I was elected at national level. With those seeking temporary protection, it worked well because local authorities were directly involved. They still are. They know where the challenges are at the local level and they know where the opportunities are.
A failure when it came to IPAS was not to meaningfully involve local authorities. In terms of communicating with local communities as well, they can even still play an important role. I appeal to the Minister, as we move forward, to better involve local authorities when it comes to IPAS because they can really play-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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They demonstrated it.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I would ask the Minister to note that.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I will take on board that advice.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Can I get I agreement from the committee that the Minister's opening statement will be placed on the website? Agreed.
The Minister and his officials will easily get a sense we could have been here for at least the same amount of time again. We appreciate the Minister's engagement and his frank responses. Hopefully, written responses to those questions that were unanswered or where the Minister did not have the information will follow. I genuinely thank the Minister and his officials for their engagement. I sense we will be back again.
I propose that the committee go into private session. Is that agreed? Agreed.