Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 28 May 2025
Committee on Transport
National Transport Authority: Engagement
2:00 am
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of the meeting is to be given an overview of the work of the National Transport Authority. From that organisation, I am very pleased to welcome Mr. Hugh Creegan, interim chief executive; Mr. Eoin Gillard, assistant director of transport investment; and Mr. John Nott, head of public transport services planning. They are all very welcome. The committee appreciates their attendance as we invited them at short notice. We are grateful.
I will read a couple of notes on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House, or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.
I ask that prior to making their contributions to the meeting, members partaking via Microsoft confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.
I now ask the interim chief executive, Mr. Creegan to make his opening statement.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it today. I understand that the committee wishes to obtain an overview of the work of the National Transport Authority, NTA. To assist me in dealing with questions that may arise during the session, I am joined by Mr. Eoin Gillard, assistant director of transport investment, and Mr. John Nott, head of public transport service planning.
As members will know, the NTA has a broad remit of activities covering strategic planning of transport, the provision of transport services, the development of transport infrastructure and various regulatory and licensing activities.
The core Act under which the NTA was established is the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008, which initially envisaged an entity focused on transport matters in the greater Dublin area that would be called the Dublin Transport Authority. However, before we were established in December 2009, this name and our remit was changed in the Public Transport Regulation Act of that year. Due to these changes, certain of our functions are national in nature. Others remain focused on the greater Dublin area.
Later legislation added the regulation of small public service vehicles - taxis, hackneys and limousines - with the incorporation into our functions of the functions of the dissolved Commission for Taxi Regulation. In 2015, the Vehicle Clamping Act gave the NTA responsibility for the regulation of clamping activities and the provision of a clamping appeals system.
The NTA works with a large number of partner organisations in the delivery of its remit, including the Department of Transport, local authorities, Transport Infrastructure Ireland, State and private transport operators and various other parties.
Given the extent of the NTA’s remit and associated activities, and in the interests of brevity of this introductory statement, I have attached an appendix providing specific detail on the various functions of the NTA, in addition to information on a variety of ongoing project and services activities to my opening statement. I hope that the note provides a reasonable level of information on various aspects of our work and further detail can be provided on any item as required. That concludes my opening remarks. I welcome any questions that members may have.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Creegan for his opening statement. The NTA has a large remit. There is so much we can focus on. If I have a second opportunity to come in, I may have questions on the active travel remit and taxi licensing, but I wish to focus my engagement this morning on the rural transport programme, the importance of Local Link and the great work being done by the 15 Local Link structures - the transport co-ordination units, TCUs - throughout the country. I want to properly understand the extent to which the rural transport programme is a priority for the NTA. Does Mr. Creegan agree that it is necessary to recognise that rural transport should be a permanent public service? I want to properly understand the investment in Local Link. What is the budgetary investment for 2025 compared with 2024?
In the context of Local Link in Tipperary, there are 60 door-to-door services. There are six scheduled services. I acknowledge the town bus service. Mr. Nott was directly involved in that, and I really appreciate it. I want to champion Local Link, but I am not clear on the extent to which it and the rural transport project, Connecting Ireland, is for the NTA. I want the witnesses to reassure as to what is the vision for Local Link.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
We recognised some years ago that we were doing a great deal of work in urban areas. We had BusConnects developed for the cities but all the rural areas, towns and villages, needed to be addressed. As a result, we developed the Connecting Ireland programme of which Local Link is part. That programme aims to radically improve public transport provision throughout the country in order that most people will have an option to use public transport to complete at least some of the journeys that they cannot complete at present.
It is in my note that we rolled out about 45 improvements last year, and there are something like 45 or 47 new and enhanced services to come this year. That is an important programme for us. It requires funding, so that is the constraint we have. For us, it is vital. It is recognised by the Department of Transport and the Government that is the case. We are growing it. We would grow it further if there was further funding available.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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What is the comparison between the investment in 2025 and in 2024, particularly in terms of Local Link?
Mr. John Nott:
Yes. We have about 47 proposals planned for this year. Seven have been implemented so far. We plan to implement a further 17 next month. On our funding, we have roughly the same allocation this year as last. We think that is sufficient to deliver our implementation plan. Annualised, that is in the order of €8 million to €10 million. We are in phase 4 of a five-phase programme. We hope to be finished around 2027.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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No increase in funding in 2025 compared with 2024 is a concern for me, particularly when we look at the commitments in the programme for Government. I reflected on the minutes of board’s previous meetings in recent days. The extent to which the rural transport programme, Connecting Ireland, was discussed was quite limited. Is there a champion of the rural transport programme represented on the board?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
All the board members have a specific interest in rural transport. There is no specific person who champions that. All of them recognise it. Perhaps the reason one does not see it recorded that often is because in the context of the decisions that are made on rural transport, the strategy is set by the board, but the decisions become executive decisions so they do not require board decisions. Many of the minutes that the Cathaoirleach will have read concern things that require specific board approval, but he can take it as read that rural transport and the rural transport programme are both high priorities for us. This is one of those things where every time we roll out a service, it is welcomed. It is an attractive programme to roll out in many ways. There is never any opposition to it, unlike some other projects deal with. It remains a high-priority programme for us.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Did the NTA make a submission in the context of the review of the national development plan?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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In the context of the rural transport programme, what is the NTA’s vision for the rural transport programme and the Local Link structure into the future. I am struggling to understand why we have 15 companies throughout Ireland that are all doing similar work. Surely, we would have better outcomes if they were integrated into one single more cost and resource efficient organisation? We have 15 companies paying 15 insurances, 15 accounting auditors, 15 solicitors and 15 payroll and accounting packages, and all working on short-term contracts. Has Mr. Creegan any thoughts on that?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
There was a review of the arrangements for managing the road transport service about five or six years ago. The number of transport co-ordination units was much higher. It was rationalised down to 15. One thing you would lose with a single entity would be the local knowledge and information that is essential. It is a local transport service we are providing. Therefore, we think having those units distributed around the country is extremely beneficial to tailoring the service exactly to what is needed in certain areas. There may be a case for asking whether it should be shoehorned into local authorities, but that has not been agreed or concluded yet. Potentially, that would be an obvious next step.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Creegan think there might be merit in giving them some sort of statutory basis in the context of engaging with local authorities?
I am not sure the extent to which there is proper, meaningful engagement between the Local Link network, Bus Éireann and Irish Rail to allow Local Link services use depots and railways to create mobility hubs and maximise the impact of the services. It is a key priority for me. I will finish now.
Like other rural TDs, at a local level I deal with rural isolation and a lack of connectivity. Bus services in towns are great in the context of revitalising town centres. I will continue to champion Local Link, but there is so much more that we could do. I sense a lack of urgency within the NTA to bring Local Link to the next level. This is something I will come back to. Now that my time is up, I ask Deputy Boland to take the floor.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in to talk to us today. I really appreciate it. My home constituency is Dublin Fingal West. We have a large population that is rapidly increasing so public transport and connectivity are important. It will come as no surprise that I want to focus on the national fare strategy which was agreed in 2023. The aim of it is very laudable, namely, to provide consistent and equitable fares across Ireland, based on distance travelled as the crow flies. People in zone 2 have been penalised by the new fare structure. They are being asked to subsidise those travelling from zones 3 and 4. It is simply unfair. The people in my constituency, in the towns of Balbriggan and Skerries, have faced hefty hikes and increases of 30% and more on fares. Children's fares have tripled, which is unacceptable, unsustainable and pretty much without warning. Significant numbers of children between the towns go to different schools and their parents could have between one and four children travelling by train. I am inundated with complaints from parents.
To add insult to injury, fairer fares based on distance travelled only seem to apply when travelling towards Dublin. A person travelling from Dublin Pearse Station to Drogheda, which is a journey length of 52 km, is charged €7.80, while a person travelling from Balbriggan to Drogheda, which is a journey of only 16 km, is also charged €7.80. That is pretty outrageous if we say we are introducing equitable fares based on distance travelled. I would like the witnesses to acknowledge that the fares system is not fair for those travelling from zone 2, and in particular it is penal for parents whose children travel frequently by train.
I am not sure how the NTA came up with the formula for the fares structure, but I would very much like the witnesses to look into it and to come back to us and advise us on how the inequality and unfairness in fares can be resolved. In the interim, it is important that a cap is placed on children's weekly fares. Could Mr. Creegan please respond?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
It is important to say there are a lot of good things in the fare changes that we introduced, but I accept that there are people who have been disadvantaged. I acknowledge that upfront. We had a fare system before that people continually complained about. There was a big jump at the end of the short-hop zone when one came into intercity fares. If you were in Balbriggan, you paid one fare and if you were in Gormanston it was €7 more to get on, even though it is only 2 km or 3 km up the road. That was replicated across the system. The same happened on the Kildare line where there was a big ramp up at Newbridge Station and so on. For years, people were asking us to sort this out. It was a legacy fare system that dates back decades. It is very hard to understand what rationale they had on things like competition with private operators, when those fares were introduced years ago. Nobody knows why it happened.
What we have done now is put in a very rational, logical fare system. A lot of people have benefited and some people have had their fares increased, but it is now fairly based for people who are the same distance from the city centre. They all pay the same fare. I heard what Deputy Boland said about other journeys. That is the case whether one lives on the east, south or west side of the city. It was not the case before.
We want to do more on child fares because Deputy Boland is correct that they have gone up quite significantly. Our target is that by the next academic year – September – we will have a lower price weekly child fare in place that will hopefully address a significant level of the concerns that exist about the current structure.
We must check the feasibility of the ticketing system, which is quite old - the current system we have goes back 20 years – to see about introducing interzonal fares. Deputy Boland referred to going from zone 2 to zone 3. We are working on the feasibility of that. I do not know the answer to it yet.
I assure Deputy Boland that we are going to introduce a lower price weekly child fare. We have a target of September to get that done.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate all the detail Mr. Creegan provided. I will continue to advocate for the people of Balbriggan and Skerries. If we are telling them the fares are fair, they need to be fair. They should not be paying the same to travel to Drogheda as someone who is travelling from Dublin Pearse Station.
In the short time I have left I also want to mention the payment system. Mr. Creegan mentioned the ticket payment system. I would very much like to hear what the NTA's plans are for the payments system. A new payments system has been in gestation for quite some time. We need to be a modern city and country and be able to accept contactless payments or have some kind of electronic wallet. Whatever is rolled out, I very strongly encourage Mr. Creegan to make sure that we get value for money, that it is a modern system and that we look at other European cities to see what is best in class. I stress value for money because I am conscious of spiralling IT projects right across the public service.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
Our Leap system, which is at the core of our ticketing system, was introduced in 2011, 14 years ago. It was designed ahead of that so it is virtually two decades old now. We can all imagine how much technology has moved on in the intervening period. We are going to replace it. We have contracted with a Spanish company called Indra, which has done these systems elsewhere and it is working on this project at the moment. It is a big project that involves not just IT but hardware. There are 2,500 buses and a myriad of validators at stations, and so on, that will have to be enabled to operate with the new system while still running the old one. The real challenge is keeping the old system going while the new system is introduced. That company is working away on it and it will be a couple of years before it gets rolled out, but it is being done as fast as we can do it. It is being arranged in a way that we are future-proofed for a good many years to come. It uses technologies that are not yet widely deployed. I am not sure of the right term, but it will not be necessary to tap on as the system will recognise the mobile phone in your pocket and validate you through that process. The system will be future-proofed to allow that to come on board afterwards. I hope we will end up with a very robust system that is the foundation here in Ireland for a good many years to come.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Creegan.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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I welcome the witnesses here this morning. My time is a bit tight so I will ask a few questions. I will start with rural transport, although earlier I did not intend to start there. I am on the board of Local Link, so perhaps there is a conflict of interest. I am only a volunteer. I see the value of Local Link and rural transport for rural communities. We had the set-up of the business in Skibbereen. I refer to the Goleen, Schull and Ballydehob bus, as well as the bus from Beara to Sheep's Head in Bantry. The Baltimore to Skibbereen route is so popular that they have to get a bigger bus on the route because they cannot cope with the demand. These areas were never serviced before and all of a sudden they have exploded in the use of public transport.
There is a need for transport in other areas. I will email Mr. Creegan about the specific locations because he cannot be expected to know everywhere. Kinsale, Ballinhassig and Cork city do not have a service but there is a tender at the moment, which is great, but Clonakilty, Ballinacarrig and Drimoleague do not have any service whatsoever.
When Mr. Creegan talks about connecting Ireland, I am of the firm belief that the NTA should be in charge of school transport and should be in charge of everything in that regard. If we are going to connect Ireland, then all of the operators need to be working together. They might be working together from a distance but it needs to be under the one roof. I come in here in the mornings on the DART from Bray. The schoolchildren are going to school on the same DART, at any age and every age, on their own or with their parents or whatever. At the same time there is a school bus in rural Ireland travelling around the countryside that could bring an elderly person into the town to pick up the main rural transport and the Local Link bus and get them around that way. This is not happening at present. A is not talking to B.
I have so many questions to ask but my time is limited. If I am doing a return journey from Bray, it is 20 km in and 20 km return, so it is a 40 Km round trip that costs around €5.50 or €5.60, or very close to that - I could be wrong. If I was to do the same journey in rural Ireland it might be €15 or €20. That is not fair. Something has to change there. There should be no difference with the rates regardless of where one lives.
I have to move on pretty quickly. The NTA deals with fares and fare reductions. When the NTA announced a 20% fare reduction, this was not passed on to the commercial bus operators, CBOs. Why is that the case?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
It was a Government policy decision to introduce the 20% fare reduction and it was introduced for the public subsidised services only. There was a second initiative. On a policy basis it was not provided for the commercial bus operators but what was provided was a 50% student and youth fare reduction allowed in the public service obligation, PSO, services. That was extended to cover commercial operators for whoever wanted to participate in that scheme. We have a large number of operators who operate on that 50% reduction for people under 25. The 50% one was provided to the commercial operators but the overall the 20% one was not.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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So basically it was a Government decision to keep the CBO out of the 20% deduction as such. It is very unfair.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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I know Mr. Creegan cannot criticise policy but-----
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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But not beyond that, which is very unfair because there are a lot of private operators out there. We are very lucky to have one down in west Cork, Damien Long, who has completely changed the direction of transport for the people of west Cork. We are blessed to have him now. It is not just him, however. There are other private operators out there who need to be included in that 20% reduction so it goes right around.
Rural communities have no taxi and hackney operators. The main reason for this is the stringent licence criteria. Basically, as far as I know and I must check my figures here, there are roughly around 54 industrial knowledge questions and 36 area knowledge questions. People do not seem to have an issue with the industrial knowledge questions, which are important, but the 36 area knowledge questions are absolutely ridiculous, asking where is a hospital in some places or where is a bed and breakfast accommodation in another place. That has to change. Some slight tweaking could be done here to change that so we can get people interested. People who want to go out for a meal cannot go out because they cannot get a taxi or a hackney cab. This is happening right through rural Ireland. It is a crisis that is growing every day.
Are we looking at solutions? There could be a such thing as a local area licence aspect to this. A driver who may have a B licence and who is fully Garda vetted should be let drive with an existing operator. If the rules are broken, the existing operator takes it on the chin. For example, in the morning, if one person wanted to be picked up from Cork Airport, a driver and a double decker bus can drive up and collect this person but the driver cannot get a hackney or a taxi licence. Some of these drivers, who have been driving buses for 20 years throughout the country, are applying for this licence and cannot get it. I am not being racist in here but foreign nationals, and only for them we would have no transport or very little transport, are able to come in here and probably not even know our language but they know how to get around the system because there is a way around it. This cannot be allowed. We have genuine people out there who want a taxi and hackney licence so they can drive in a rural community, in their own community, and they are being asked questions that no one should ever be asked.
Some changes have to be made there. Once these changes are made, then perhaps a local area licence could be allowed where the driver 100% yes has to have a licence, A or B, and has to be fully Garda vetted. This goes back to the local operator who provides that service, provides the vehicle, and makes sure they would be servicing those areas in Donegal or west Cork. There needs to be some change because we are in a desperate situation. It is all because a little bit of the rules and regulations do not make a lot of sense. The 54 industrial knowledge questions are important, yes, but I do not agree with the area knowledge and nobody else who is doing it agrees either. They think it is the craziest thing ever. Is there any movement there or are we wasting our time?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
The Deputy is not wasting his time. There will be movement. I will start off by saying that part of reason for the area knowledge test is that people do not want to get into a taxi at a rank and find out they are saying a well-known place but the driver has to look up Google Maps to know where it is. There is a balance there. We do have a local area hackney licence, which does not require any area knowledge tests but the take-up has not been strong on that. This is the one we are going to review. There is potential to do more on that. It will not require a local area knowledge test for the reasons the Deputy has said.
I wish to go back because I am just conscious I did not answer something the Deputy said earlier about the fares across rural Ireland. The national fare strategy was mentioned. Deputy Boland referred to it in relation to north Dublin. The intention is that later phases to that are going to correct the fare inequities that do exist across Ireland so we get to the stage - it will take a little bit of time - where the same journey in two different places will be equal and cost the same.
I will conclude on the hackneys. There is a local area hackney licence that does not require an area knowledge test at the moment. On the area knowledge test itself generally, we are reviewing this at the moment with the taxi advisory committee and whether, in this era of Google Maps, there could be a rebalancing of that. I think the answer is "Yes, there will have to be". We will recalibrate that. We are going to see if that local area hackney licence can be amended to make it more attractive to people. Very few people are taking it up at the moment.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for being at our meeting today and for the opening statement . There are quite a few points to get through so I might go quickly into them. I recently tabled a number of parliamentary questions and wrote to the NTA and the Minister for Transport on this. When coach operators apply for licensing, the NTA, in my opinion, looks at this in a very one-dimensional way. The NTA either approves or disapproves their application. There is a cohort of coach operators that are driving for tourism purposes, not A to B transit. They board buses on the quays of Dublin in the morning, they bring the tourists to the west of Ireland for the west of Ireland experience and they bus them back in the evening. There is no overnight in hotels and there are one or two stops along the way. Some of the iconic tourism sites in the west are now dubbed "photo stops" along the way. It is hollowing out tourism. I make the point that the NTA licensing at the moment is one-dimensional. It is yea or nay, approve or disapprove, but there has to be an extra metric. Other countries are doing it. They are ensuring that when tourism coaches go to the other side the country, they will overnight or slow down or they will not be on this crazy schedule that requires them to be from Burgh Quay, to the Cliffs of Moher, to Rossaveal, and back again at 5 p.m. They are putting pressure on the roads. They are making the place dangerous. They are not giving the tourists the experience of Ireland we want. These iconic sites are just photo stops where everyone bundles out, takes the snap for Instagram and moves on again. Unwittingly, the NTA is complicit in this. The Minister and the NTA need to look at this and say we are not going to accept this quick-fire tourism that starts in Dublin and then goes back to Dublin, with no money being spent in the west. It is putting severe pressure on communities. Will the NTA respond to that, please?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
Our ability to influence those types of licences is limited. We cannot determine the route. Basically, when we get an application from somebody, the Deputy is right that it is a binary choice, subject to certain checks, whether we should license or not license that person. We try to take things into account, such as different competition and different usages, but when it comes to forcing somebody to do what the Deputy wants, that it is beyond our policy capability. It would require some additional changes in legislation to give us the power to do something like that. We just simply do not have it at the moment. It is, more or less, a binary choice.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I totally get that point when it is a case of A to B, Limerick to Kilkenny, or Galway to Dublin, or whatever, but for tourism it has to be viewed a little bit differently. Some of the timetables they submit to the NTA are totally unrealistic. In trying to get around this crazy route and back up again, they are putting huge pressure on themselves as drivers, on the service and on the local people. It is not doing any good. In fact, I would rather that some of these services stayed in Dublin and not depart in the first place because they are bringing no value but hassle. If they would slow down, if they had fewer stops, and if they had quality stops where you actually do more than take a photo when you visit a site, that is what Ireland Inc. needs in terms of tourism.
Similar to Deputy Collins, I wish to raise the issue of school transportation. A huge proportion of the Bus Éireann fleet is contracted each day to the Department of Education. While this happens all over the country, I will use an example from my locality. A 50-seater Bus Éireann coach leaves Limerick city depot and comes out to Parteen full of children. It then leaves that school gate in the morning empty and comes back in the evening. There are many similar cases in villages where buses arrive full of children and leave empty, only to come back again in the afternoon. Those villages may have no public bus service whatsoever. Driving away from the school gate when there are people in that community who would love to board that bus and go back into Limerick city is illogical. As I said, that service does not operate. As Deputy Collins said, we need to look at having joined-up thinking and getting both Departments to talk to each other. In the context of sustainability, it is ludicrous that a bus drives out of a village, which has no public bus service, empty and goes back over the hills and into a city again that afternoon.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
I cannot, nor will I try to, defend that. As the Deputy knows from what he has said, our remit does not include school transportation. That is the legislation. Someone needs to change the legislation if we are to become responsible for it. We try to integrate certain things, but only in a limited way. I am sure the Deputy is aware of one such instance last year when his constituents were not happy. It really is down to the legislation. At the moment, we do not have the remit to cover school transport.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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While we will, we hope, have Irish Rail before this committee in due course, it is my understanding that the NTA has a large function with regard to scheduling, timetabling and service provision. The last train out of Dublin is at nine o’clock at night. In the past year, there have been some pretty big matches in Croke Park and Taylor Swift concerts in the Aviva. As people cannot get accommodation in Dublin for those events, it is particularly punitive on youngsters that they cannot get home again. They want to come up to Dublin for something, enjoy their youth and spend a good night in Dublin. Late-night rail services out of the capital to the west are needed.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
There is a timetable review ongoing at the moment. It will go out to consultation around August. While I do not know the exact level of detail in it, sitting here, that review is the point at which something can be looked at, subject to us having the fleet. We should have the fleet for late-night services. We will look at this issue again in the context of that timetable change. I cannot give any commitment that the change can happen. Perhaps, when the timetable review is published in August, Deputy Crowe might have a look at it to see what he thinks.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Creegan. The apps used by Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus to indicate when the next service is coming along lack accuracy. Google Maps is far more accurate, despite it not being the platform our State is plugged into. Why is that? What can the NTA do to improve that?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
For bus services, Google Maps gets the data from us. It is the same data source. We know there are improvements to be made to the TFI Live app, which is the main app to determine services. A number of people are looking at this matter for us to see what changes we need to make within the app to make it function better. We also find that service cancellations are what causes the most difficulties in the app. Unless our operators put those cancellations into the system in a timely fashion, they are not taken into consideration on the app. We are trying to improve that system.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Ennistymon bus service has been mooted for many years. We heard it could happen in 2025, but now it is 2026. When will it happen? The NTA might also review an application before it for a bus service for Meelick in my home village. I ask the witnesses to come back to me specifically on that bus service. We have been waiting and waiting for it, and all the while we see other buses passing us by and other communities getting services ahead of us. I hope it will be a priority for the NTA.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Creegan might come back to me with regard to that bus service. I would not want him to forget about it when he leaves here. I thank the witnesses for everything.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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We have not had the roll-out of BusConnects yet in Dublin West. The main issue is capacity and reliability. There are ghost buses, disappearing buses, mystery buses and late buses. We have them all in Dublin West. How many buses, on average, are on the roads on weekdays at peak times? How does that figure compare with two years ago?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
I do not have an exact number. We will have to respond to that question separately. What I can say is that the number has increased substantially in the past two years because we have rolled out a lot of extra services and a lot of extra fleet has been involved in doing that. I do not have the exact figure sitting here. I suspect it is in the region of 1,400 or 1,500 vehicles. Rather than providing a wrong answer, we will contact the committee afterwards with the correct answer.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That is the figure for Dublin.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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How many buses does the NTA aim to have in operation in the next two years?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
It is going upwards. We are not able to provide a specific answer because it depends on when the various phases of the network redesign get rolled out. To give one example, the O route phase of BusConnects, or some of the other phases that will get rolled out, will consist of 20, 30 or 40 extra buses. It depends on when those phases get rolled out. That will tell you the number of buses needed at that particular point. It is going upwards but the numbers are-----
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I would have hoped the witnesses would have had access to that kind of data today. In Dublin West, we are not feeling that upward trajectory in bus numbers.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am talking about Blanchardstown.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
As the Deputy will know, a major increase in service is coming to Blanchardstown under the B spine. The roll-out of that spine is planned for next year or slightly into 2027. Perhaps we will email with firm data after this meeting. The network redesign under the B spine will see a lot of extra service for the Blanchardstown and surrounding areas.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Why are we not seeing that kind of increase now?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
The routes are all changing under that network. In respect of the extra services, a lot of that growth will come from the new routes we are putting in, or from new sections to new routes. Those services, therefore, cannot be rolled out until the new routes are established. We have been slower than we would like in rolling these routes out, largely because of resource constraints. Drivers and mechanics are needed for every single phase we roll out. That has held us back for a number of years. It is getting better now and we hope we can roll out the next phase quicker. It still takes time, however.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is very frustrating for commuters. They are suffering because of a lack of buses and capacity. They are not thinking about the implementation of BusConnects. They just want to get to work, school or college on time. Has the electrification of the bus depots held back the number of buses we have on our roads?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
I will address the issues on the existing network with capacity shortfalls because that is what the Deputy is touching on. I was answering what is happening under the new network. We try to address capacity shortfalls where we are aware of them. We were quite reliant until recently on drivers reporting capacity shortfalls on routes. We now have developed a tool to use Leap data. Even though those data only show where people tag on and not where they tag off, we have developed a method to deal with that. We are now in a position to identify the routes with capacity issues that we need to address. We are working through that. We will start adding capacity to certain routes in September. As the Deputy can imagine, capacity requirements reduce over the summer months but will ramp up again in September and October. We will try to address certain routes in the autumn of this year. We cannot address them all, however.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am flagging capacity issues and we are not seeing the increase in buses that we need. Will Mr. Creegan answer my question with respect to the electrification of the bus depots? Competitions launched in 2021 and 2023 were cancelled.
It seems that only three of our nine bus depots have charging points. Is that why we do not have the fleet that we need to provide capacity?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
It is not that we do not have the fleet but it means we must keep some of the older fleet. Instead of retiring a bus after 12 years, we have to keep it a while longer and allow the electrification programme to catch up. The Deputy is correct that we are not as far advanced in electrification as we would like for the reasons she has touched on. That means older buses must be kept for longer. As soon as electrification catches up, they will be swapped out. We are not pointing to that as a cause of the capacity issue.
The capacity issue is largely around clarity as to where it is needed and we now have a system to give that clarity. It is more about the human resources, drivers and mechanics, who we need to operate additional services.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Some of the answers I have received from the NTA have indicated that the fleet is an issue, including the electrification of the bus depots.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
I went through and signed all of the answers that went to the Deputy. We are behind in respect of the fleet and would like to be further advanced with electrification. If we were, we would have bought more electric buses. As I said, what we have done instead is to hold on to the older diesel buses for longer while we catch up.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Do we have buses that are not being used? Mr. Creegan said that the NTA is investing in the fleet over time. Do we have buses that are not being used at the moment?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
Dublin Bus has some spare vehicles available to deal, for instance, with breakdowns or situations where vehicles are off the road for traffic accidents and things like that. There are always a number of spare vehicles available. There are enough buses to enhance capacity, as I have said, come September or October. Other electric buses are under manufacture and will come on stream. They will also be deployed.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. Following on from the question raised by Deputy Boland, I know the NTA is working to have a weekly fare for children. There was a review at the end of April and some fares have increased while others have reduced. Are there plans to realign those so that the increased fares are brought back to where they originally were? That is a "Yes" or "No" question.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
I will give a longer "No" answer. The answer is "No" but it is slightly longer. If we bring the fares back to what they were beforehand, we lose the whole rationale for the revised system. The revised system is trying to put in an equitable system whereby people who travel similar distances pay the same price. As soon as we change it for certain areas, we are back to the old system whereby passengers in one area pay a certain amount for a journey and those in other areas pay more or less. That seems the wrong way to go.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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We all agree that there has been a large increase in the number of people using public transport, which is a good thing and can help to keep fares low. In response to an earlier question, Mr. Creegan mentioned the 20% cut, the €2 cap and the 50% reduction in fares. It was reported in a briefing note to the Minister, Deputy Chambers, in February that reduced fares are creating challenges in the wider roll-out of public transport. I note that Dr. Sean Sweeney, the director of MetroLink, indicated that the best case estimate for MetroLink delivery is €11.5 billion. According to other stakeholders, it will cost north of that figure. It is also estimated that there will be a 40% overrun, in general, in the delivery of rail projects. Are those cost overruns likely to have an impact on fares or can we keep fares at the level they are currently, given those challenges?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
It is important to separate capital funding and current funding. For capital projects, I am not sure if I would subscribe to what the Deputy said about their going over budget. All of that is funded separately from the fares and, to our perception, that does not affect the fares. The fares come from current expenditure. The fare levels in the future will be determined by the amount of subsidy we are given. It costs a certain amount to run the public transport system.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Is the NTA adequately subsidised to keep the fare levels as they are at the moment?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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The NTA, therefore, is not adequately funded at the moment to keep fares as they are.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I have a question relating to ghost buses and the carrot and stick approach. Does the service level agreement with some of the private operators include enough sticks to ensure that ghost buses are limited as much as possible? I know this happens a lot. Deputy Currie mentioned west Dublin. I know students from Kerry who get a bus home from the University of Limerick, UL, on a Friday evening. The bus often disappears from the website or app. Are there enough sticks in the service level agreement to prevent that happening? Does the NTA acknowledge it is a problem?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
There definitely was a problem but it is getting better. Two or three things gave rise to the problem. The process of cancelling services was not as slick as it should have been for the operators. They are all incentivised and encouraged to do that more promptly. Communicating with the buses can also be an issue. It is a complicated system and on some of the buses, the antennae were not operating correctly or the units that provide the signal were not working fully and delivering what was needed. That has now been looked at in micro detail. Over the coming months, we should see a significant improvement in that regard.
We are in the process of replacing the whole automatic vehicle location system on all the buses with a more modern system. That will come into place next year. It will be the ultimate solution to deal with these issues. We are dealing with an old system, as we are for ticketing, which goes back ten or 20 years.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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The Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, published a report this morning stating that we are going backwards in respect of our emissions targets. Is Mr. Creegan happy that the NTA can meet its 2030 targets? I know there has been some reduction since 2018. Does Mr. Creegan think we will hit the targets? Is the NTA taking steps to ensure we do?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Creegan think it is unlikely we will meet those targets?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I will ask about the no left turn on Pearse Street in Dublin. Some concerns have been expressed by disability campaigners and people who drive those kinds of vehicles over the fact that they cannot turn left and join the buses and taxis. Does Mr. Creegan have any view on that? Might that decision be reviewed?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
The change on Pearse Street is the second or third change to the city centre under a plan developed by the NTA and Dublin City Council. Those changes have been properly calibrated and are speeding up our bus services, which was a part of the reason for making them. Improving the quality of the city centre was another reason. From my knowledge of what happened with the quays last year, the changes have not diminished the numbers of people coming into the city centre or the level of trade and business.
In terms of access to various places, certain journeys for some people become more inconvenient but they will still be able to access all the areas they were previously able to access. The changes just mean that people have to drive a different direction. Instead of moving westward along Pearse Street, drivers will have to manoeuvre themselves to move eastward along Pearse Street. All the locations that were previously accessible by car continue to be accessible. It is just the routing that is different.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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There are no plans at the moment to allow disabled drivers to turn left.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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It is good to see the witnesses again and I thank them for coming in. I will get straight into it because I have a number of issues to cover that relate primarily to the commuter experience. Perhaps in his first response, Mr. Creegan might give me a sense of how the NTA puts the commuter experience at the centre of what it does. I represent a large Dublin constituency.
The electrification of the bus fleet has been mentioned. One thing that strikes me is that we do not hear much discussion or communication about the electrification of the bus fleet and the impact that has in terms addressing our emissions. Mr. Creegan might speak in a moment about how exactly that communication challenge of informing the public about the opportunities that are presented by the electric bus fleet is being addressed.
BusConnects is obviously something that Mr. Creegan covered in his introductory outlining of the NTA. I would like to hear from him about the plans to expand the L route. It is one of the unsung champions of the BusConnects roll-out, certainly in Dublin, and has opened up and unlocked a lot more capacity in the bus network. I would like to hear about the plans to expand that.
Like Deputy Currie, I represent a constituency in the western part of Dublin where, for many parts of the area, bus transport is the only mode of public transport people have available to them. Capacity on those routes is a constant issue, be it in terms of capacity at weekends to react to large events in the city centre or large events such as a concerts or large cultural events and extra capacity is provided at weekends, or during the day at peak times. If a long route, like a C-spine route, is in operation, that route fills up every quickly before it leaves the local area where it begins. The engagement I have had with providers is that they are not able to properly adapt to those changes in a fast enough way. That could be in terms of operating a route that has a staggered start. For example, if I think of somewhere like the C1 or C2 in Lucan and Adamstown, where part of that C1 or C2 route might start at a later part of the route, be it three or four km into it, to give additional capacity to people at the other end of Lucan and give them the opportunity to get onto a bus. In many cases as it stands at the moment, buses that are full go by stops in that part of Lucan. This is emulated all over Dublin Mid-West.
I would like to hear a bit from Mr. Creegan first about the benefits of the electric bus fleet, the roll-out of the local routes and how the NTA is proactively engaging with providers to address capacity issues at weekends in response to large, one-off events. I would also like to hear about staggered starts to bus routes.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
The first question was how we put the customer first. We recognise very solemnly that these services are all about providing for people. They are not about providing services for the sake of services but providing for the people who need to use it. Everything gets careful attention, from the design of the buses on. A number of years ago we introduced double doors to speed up boarding. There used to bench seats on buses and we have put in individual seats. We put in straight stairs and a whole load of things like that on the vehicles.
We have tried to improve information flow on the apps. We have tried to improve the information provision at bus stops and shelters and on bus poles. There have been a host of other things along with lots of advertising campaigns that try to encourage people to use the services and give them the information.
I will ask Mr. Gillard to talk about electrification in a minute but I will start on the plans to expand the L routes. We think the network we have put in place under network redesign, where we have rolled it out, is the right network. In terms of expanding L routes, it would probably be extra-----
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I meant capacity, not necessarily the expansion of the route.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
Sorry. As I said earlier, we now have our own tools to identify in a proactive way where capacity constraints are emerging. It will not be an overnight thing but you will see us get better over the next number of months at putting in extra capacity to try to address some of the needs. I absolutely cannot say we will not still have full buses. We are because transport is growing at a phenomenal rate. It grew 10% last year overall. It is really hard to keep up with it but we will get better at that.
In terms of starting additional routes or injecting services to start at later points, conceptually, we have no difficulty doing that. It is a case of whether that suits that particular route or if it would be better still starting at the start point but making sure there is enough capacity at the alternative start point. Conceptually, there is no prevention to doing it. It is a matter of designing a system that is more understandable to people. It is a case-by-case basis. Some places will do that. Other places will say let us start at the beginning with the extra service and pick people up from the start.
I will pass to Mr. Gillard for questions on electrification.
Mr. Eoin Gillard:
I thank the Deputy. In relation to electrification and the communication of it and its benefits, we are still in the early days of the roll-out, but there have been concerted information campaigns on the full electrification of the Athlone town service. There was quite a lot of communication of that, the benefits associated with it and the influence it has had on the town. Similarly, we have fully electrified the service in Limerick as well with the full electrification of the depot.
In Dublin, we are still very much in the early stages. We have rolled out somewhere between 100 and 150 electric buses, with the part-electrification of approximately three depots. We are really only starting that communication campaign about the benefits of electrification once those services are bedded in. Over the next number of months, we will be putting out more communication about the benefits of those.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Going back to the staggered bus routes, I take the point that, conceptually, there is no issue with it but is the NTA proactively engaging with providers to allow it? Is there an example where this has been done in the past or where it is working on doing it with a use case being manifested in the future?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
I do not have a specific example but I think I can say openly that Dublin Bus has approximately 20 auxiliary vehicles available to inject into services on a daily basis. Some of those injections will occur part way along a route, exactly as the Deputy is suggesting. Instead of starting at the terminal point-----
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
It happens. The thing is that when you want a permanent solution, even explaining to the public that on some services the route will start at this place and on another service it starts in another place is a bit of a confusing message to communicate to people if that is the long-term fix. That is why for the long-term fix, we can do the short running if we need it but, in general, we prefer to bring the service back to the start and then people understand that is a service every eight minutes or ten minutes, whatever it is.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I have spoken to Mr. Creegan about the Luas for Lucan and how important that is to me. That is something that should be prioritised. I ask for an update on reforms that are being made to the NTA app. I find it interesting the NTA app can push updates about fare increases but cannot necessarily give an overview of the performance or effectiveness of the route a user will usually use on that day. I know there is a piece of work going on about how to improve the overall app but I would like that to be taken on board in terms of emulating what is done in London regarding the underground line and the performance of that route. The NTA has information from ticketing about where certain users use routes and how they identify it and how those routes themselves are performing on a day because, obviously, the operator feeds that information back to the NTA. I would like to hear an update from Mr. Creegan on that.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
In fairness to the Deputy, he had mentioned to us before the idea of putting a service quality parameter to the information and, as he said, it is done on the Tube system in London. However, that is a closed, fixed system. I have not yet investigated whether that is being done anywhere for the bus side of things because service definition on rail is a bit easier than service definition on buses. We are not opposed to it. We will do a bit of analysis to see has anyone else done that and if they have not done it, that tells you its own message that it is a bit too hard. However, we will examine it and if it has value and there is a precedent there, we will see if we can take it on board.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their time today. I want to pick up on rural transport again. It is certainly very positive to see new Local Link services starting up around the place, but when I look at my own constituency, we have serious issues with frequency and capacity of bus services from towns which are essentially commuter towns to Galway city and there are very limited links between those towns. While progress is being made, people feel that progress is quite slow. Connecting Ireland was mentioned earlier. Will Mr. Creegan outline the progress that has been made on that and the main challenges faced in rolling that out?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
I might bring Mr. Nott in in a minute to talk about the number of roll-outs we had last year and what is planned for this year. One of the challenges is funding because all these services cost money. As we grow our transport system, the amount of subsidy the State needs to put into it is increasing. Having the funding to roll-out services is a limiting factor in what we can accomplish in any year.
Having said that, even if we had all the money in the world, there are personnel constraints as well. There are shortages of drivers in the industry and shortages of mechanics. I do not want to paint it as all a funding issue, but certainly over the coming years, funding will become the biggest constraint to rolling out the level of services people are looking for across the network.
In terms of what we are doing and what we plan to do, I will ask Mr. Nott to speak to that for a second.
Mr. John Nott:
I know the Deputy and I have met before and discussed some of the issues in Galway so I will not rehash the answers to some of those.
As the Deputy will be aware, a review of the area is under way and proposals are coming through. We expect three or four new proposals to come in for Galway in the next few months. One that is imminent along the 350 route is Mountbellew. We have a programme, as we mentioned, of approximately 47 proposals to work through in phase 4 of the Connecting Ireland programme. It is important to mention that it is a five-phase programme. We are committed to and prioritising getting to the end of it. By the end, we will probably have worked through between 200 and 250 new and enhanced routes across the network. We have seen approximately a sevenfold increase in passenger numbers on the Local Link regular rural services, which is phenomenal. There are challenges around how we can provide capacity for that and how the market can respond to deliver buses, drivers and so forth. One of the things that is less spoken about is that we have had a significant increase in services across the regional network served by Bus Éireann. Last year, for example, approximately 8 million passenger journeys were taken on services that were enhanced or brought about by the Connecting Ireland programme. We have had phenomenal growth. The challenge is trying to keep up with that.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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I might come back in as my time is limited. I appreciate the update. It is clear from engagements I have had with the NTA in the past that funding is an issue and it needs to be looked at.
How are public service obligations, PSOs, identified, especially when a bus service ends? There are plenty of examples in my constituency, such as the Athenry bus, where the NTA identified a PSO. There have been examples in the past with the Galway to Dublin bus route, which Bus Éireann and Aircoach served and the need was not identified. Will the NTA talk a little about how it goes about identifying that need?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
If a commercially provided service is cancelled, we determine whether there is a need for a PSO service. We look at such things as the level of demand we think there is on that corridor and whether there are any other operators on it. There might be another commercial operator or a train service might be an alternative. We look at it holistically to see whether there is a gap we need to fill. If a gap is identified, we can step in and say let us provide a PSO route. Often, it is not even a new route, but a modification of the existing network to serve the areas that have been missed. The process is to look at the demand and what else is being provided in the area and then determine whether there is truly a gap that needs to be filled by a PSO service.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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Is the NTA restricted in that as regards funding?
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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I understand the NTA has a role in the allocation of rail stock. Capacity on rail services is a concern on a lot of the regional routes. I wrote to the NTA about this recently. I raised these issues with Irish Rail, which noted that allocation of additional rail carriages is the responsibility of the NTA. The additional DART+ carriages are coming onto the system and I understand that will allow some of the diesel carriages to be transferred onto regional routes. It is an issue at the moment because that is dependent on testing and so on, but we have a serious issue with overcrowding in the interim on many services. Is the NTA looking at finding a solution to that in the interim?
Mr. Eoin Gillard:
There is an integration between the service we plan to deliver and the availability of the fleet to deliver it. There has been an insertion of 41 additional intermediate cars on intercity or interurban rail services. That manifested from funding that was provided in 2019 and they came into service last year.
On the insertion of new fleet, the DART+ fleet will create a cascade of diesel units that can be fed into the service. The planning for that will be service-led and dependent on where the need is greatest. It will be done through looking at the timetable and demand. Given the uncertainty around when those vehicles will be released, the plan for the cascade of vehicles has not been determined at this stage.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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Does the NTA have any timeline for when it expects carriages to become available? I am concerned that in the interim where there are capacity issues on services, nothing will be done about it. There are serious issues with the rail service between my home town, Athenry, and Galway city. There is a serious safety issue on services. Will anything be looked at in that regard in the meantime?
Mr. Eoin Gillard:
Yes, it will. The cascade of fleet will probably happen from 2027 onwards, but as Mr. Creegan mentioned earlier, the timetable review looks at the reallocation of fleet to see where we can provide services if there are capacity or other issues and whether we can strengthen those services.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as teacht isteach inniu.
I have raised this with the witnesses at different stages. The NTA is responsible for a number of railway functions in association with Irish Rail. The issues I will deal with are the Sligo-Dublin railway line and the opening of the western railway corridor. The first thing I would like to talk about is the possible introduction of an early morning commuter train from Longford to arrive in Sligo before 9 a.m. I recently spoke to a young postgraduate student who completed a research study in ATU around rail traffic in Sligo. Her findings were surprising and a simulation of her work can be viewed on a website that I would be happy to share. It is interesting. Her evidence shows that there is a train available in Longford at that time of day and that staff are also there. The train would arrive at 8.19 a.m. at little or no extra cost. Her feasibility study has proved this. At the moment, the first train arrives in Sligo at 10.16 a.m. and this is having a significant negative impact on students, workers and people who want to attend morning appointments. We have a student housing crisis in Sligo and this would alleviate a lot of that. Is there any way this could be taken on board as it seems to be an easy win?
The second issue I will speak about, which I have also written to the NTA about, is the return of the catering carriage on the Dublin-Sligo train. It was withdrawn along with other catering services during the pandemic, but other routes have had it restored. The catering carriage has been restored on the Cork-Dublin route and on the Belfast-Dublin route. There is a huge demand for it. I did a vox-pop on the early morning train and in two weeks we got more than 770 signatures from people who want it to be reinstated. The NTA knows there is demand for it because in July 2024 we received reassurances from Barry Kenny of Irish Rail that services would be reinstated by the start of 2025. I wrote to Mr. Creegan and I received a reply from him stating:
At the present time, there are no plans to reintroduce catering services on the Sligo-Dublin rail route. There are significant costs attached to the provision of such catering services. The income is much less than the cost and funding for such provision has not been provided. Accordingly, Irish Rail is not in a position to offer such services.
I then inquired about the cost of the service before it was withdrawn and the estimated cost of reinstating the catering services. The response from the NTA said that Irish Rail was in a better position to answer my question. My freedom of information request was transferred to Irish Rail on 17 April and I have yet to receive a response. However, I did hear back from Irish Rail on a question I asked subsequently regarding the cost of operating the Cork-Dublin catering service, which resumed in May 2023. The response was far from reassuring. It was that Iarnród Éireann has contracted a third-party supplier to provide catering services on the Cork-Dublin line following a competitive tender process and that any profits or losses are incurred by it directly. If Irish Rail is unaware of what the profit or loss associated with an existing service is, how can the NTA know the expenditure required for the reintroduction of the catering carriage on the Sligo-Dublin line will be greater than the income generated?
Is it the responsibility of the NTA to look for this extra funding from the Department? It does not seem fair to me that a private provider can cherry-pick what it thinks are the most profitable train lines when surely, if they are more profitable, there can be a substitute method whereby there would be some kind of subsidisation between the more profitable routes and the less profitable routes.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
My recollection is that the service from Belfast to Dublin and from Cork to Dublin was the subject of a tender process. It was not the case that somebody willy-nilly walked in to do it. That is my understanding.
With regard to the other areas of the network, we got information from Irish Rail that this was just loss making, full stop. I cannot recollect whether or not it had run a tender competition which identified that. I think it had but I cannot say that with total certainty. One way or another, it became clear that it was a loss-making activity, and at a time when we are struggling to find the funding to roll out all the Local Link services that the Senator has heard mentioned here and so on, it became difficult for us to say, "Let us put the money into the catering services." We have not been able to do so, and that is the position on it.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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May I come back in for just a minute on that? I just want to press the urgency of this. Even if it were not a catering cart, perhaps a vending machine could be put there. The first train leaves Sligo at 5.40 a.m., and people travel from Donegal and from all around. Because we do not have cancer care services anywhere in the north west, many people go to hospital appointments in Dublin. No shops are open by the time we get on the train. An elderly woman fainted last week. No one could give her water and then she had to get off the train at the next stop. There is nothing at all on the trains, and it is one of the longer services. Because there is no looping system or because we do not have a second track, often people could be on the train for three and a half hours. That really needs to be listened to. Even if it is not a profit-making service, there have to be some kinds of subsidies to provide a basic service to which people are entitled, especially when it is one of the longer routes.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
I understand the attractiveness of such a service. It is down to the money investment that is required.
I have wondered about vending machines myself. I think the issue is that we would probably have to take seats out to make space for the vending machine or take the toilet out of the carriage, and neither of those are attractive propositions. All I can say is that we will keep the matter under review. It may be that something can be done in the future, but for now the money is literally not there to support that service.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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The western rail corridor is the other one. Even this morning, Deputy Daly raised the fact that we will incur billions in fines if we do not reach our climate targets. The opening up of the western rail corridor is a no-brainer. We talk a lot about balanced regional development. I would, as part of this transport committee, include the Claremorris-to-Collooney route. It is only 75 km. I know there is a commitment to extend the route from Athenry to Claremorris, but if we could just extend it from Claremorris to Collooney. There is an estimated cost of €445 million. We talk then about MetroLink. That has gone up to €11 billion. Surely this would be an alternative, a commitment to balanced regional development and to really looking at reducing our carbon emissions. We have no provision in the west of Ireland like that. In Donegal there is no rail provision at all. I really hope that this will be another area for consideration throughout the lifetime of this committee.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
This is one of the areas where the odd nature of our functions comes to the fore. If that railway line were in Meath, we would have jurisdiction, to use that word, over it. Because it is outside the greater Dublin area when it comes to rail, it is not under the NTA's remit. Services are but the infrastructure is not. That is between Irish Rail and the Department of Transport, so I am afraid the Senator will have to ask them what the position on it is. I know, as she does, that it is included in the all-Ireland rail review for delivery, but I am afraid we do not know the exact position on that delivery.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I call Senator Mark Daly.
Mark Duffy (Fine Gael)
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Close enough, Chair. I welcome Mr. Creegan, Mr. Nott and Mr. Gillard. I wish to follow up and raise directly catering on the Mayo-to-Dublin line. It has been stopped for the past four years. Like Sligo, it is quite a long journey, up to four hours at times. I have, over recent years, been advocating for the introduction of early-morning rail services between Mayo and Dublin, which have been really well received and used, and indeed later evening services. What has come up time after time, however, is catering and refreshments on services. Specifically as regards the Mayo-Dublin line, can the NTA provide an update on the introduction of this service? It supposedly had been at a tender stage. I would like an update on that.
Mark Duffy (Fine Gael)
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There was a public communication about a tendering process last year. Irish Rail had tendered for the service and it was due to be signed off on by the NTA.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
I am not fully familiar with what happened exactly in that tender process, but I know that we were not in the position to provide the funding for it, which was why it was not delivered. I am not clear whether or not that happened as part of the tender process, but our position is that we simply do not have the funding to support catering services at the moment.
Mark Duffy (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Creegan says the NTA does not have the funding. I understand that that is its position, but should the market not decide whether or not there is a demand for it? Anecdotally, we have people in all our areas begging for the reintroduction of refreshments. From a public health point of view, I think there is a standard of service that needs to be introduced, and there is anecdotally a demand. Is the NTA setting a criterion of deflated price that is then not financially viable or what is it that is restricting its decision-making?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
It is that there are so many demands on the budget we get to provide services literally across the country that we have to make choices. The choice becomes whether you put in the catering service, which is loss making so needs subsidisation, and use up your subsidy for that or whether you provide a Local Link service in another county. That is what the decision comes down to.
Mark Duffy (Fine Gael)
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From a political point of view, our message is clear that we want this introduced. Will the NTA come back with a proposal or a plan and let us make the decision as Government representatives or political representatives to find a way to support the NTA's efforts in reintroducing this?
Mark Duffy (Fine Gael)
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That is my point. If a costing can be communicated to us through the committee, we can make a decision and can advocate internally to say we see the value for it. Currently, however, we are going around in circles and nothing is happening. There was communication last year saying that it would be reintroduced on the Mayo line and that there was a tendering process that just had to be signed off on by the NTA. That has caused miscommunication and raised false hopes for passengers.
Mark Duffy (Fine Gael)
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If it is loss making on the Cork-to-Dublin line, for example, I do not see why Mayo commuters, or indeed Sligo commuters, are second-class as regards standard of service. I think it is something we would like to see introduced.
A serious amount of funding was introduced for local transport plans in towns right across the country. In Mayo about €750,000 was spent on local transport plans that are now completed, and they were to be the bible for all investment in safe routes to school and active travel investment. Has the delivery of those plans been costed?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
There are a myriad of plans around the country. It is not just in Mayo; they have been done everywhere. I presume that each individual plan has given some rough order of magnitude as to what the projects within it will cost. I do not know sitting here what it is, but each plan should provide some idea or some indication of the cost of delivery.
I do not think the plans are just active travel type projects. It was meant to be - and I think they are - a plan for the transport system in that area, encompassing what street changes, junction upgrades or whatever might be needed. It was meant to be an overall plan for particular towns or areas that would guide transport investment overall for the coming years.
Mark Duffy (Fine Gael)
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From a Mayo perspective, I understand that the plans are not costed. A great deal of money has been spent on plans, but that has not been much delivery on the basis of those. If the plans are not costed, then it is a case of asking, “How long is a piece of string?” How long are we going to go on in this way? Will it be indefinitely in the context of realising these plans? What will happen is that at a certain stage the consultants will say that a plan is out of date and that new one is needed. There will then have been very little delivery but lots of money will have been spent on consultants.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
Nobody ever got anywhere on a plan; you have to turn it into reality. I agree entirely with that. Equally, I would not get hung up on everything having to be costed and having an overall delivery plan for every bit of it. The key thing for us is to get started on delivering some of the stuff. The intention was to use those plans, and the council could pick off the projects it wanted to start with in a particular town. If we are the funding body for those projects - and it could be some other entity for some of them - we would recognise that those projects were a priority for the council in that town and that they were underpinned by a clear plan, and we should be in a position to fund it. I do not think we need to focus on the whole plan. Rather, we need to focus on identifying what the next projects are to deliver out of it and get started on them.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator Duffy. I call Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee.
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach. I thank Mr. Creegan for coming in today. I have several issues I wish to raise with him.
On the rail fare changes introduced, I live in north County Dublin. People there have been particularly badly impacted. Those living in Balbriggan and Skerries are now paying over 30% more for their rail fares. They are not in the Dublin city zone like all the other Dublin stations. Instead, they are in the Dublin commuter zone with the likes of Sallins, Greystones and Kilcoole. Skerries and Balbriggan feel very strongly that they are in County Dublin. The people there are Dublin commuters, and they should be treated like all other Dublin rail users. They should really be in zone 1 rather than zone 2. Those people are connected culturally and in every way to the rest of County Dublin. They feel they have been cut off now from Dublin. It is outrageous that we are piling such a high cost and an increase on those commuters. I spoke to one person who lives in Skerries. He told me that he works every day in the city centre. He has free parking in the city centre and now he is simply going to drive to work and not get the train, which he has been doing for years. That is completely unacceptable.
Around the time the fares were introduced, I heard Mr. Creegan talking about it. He said that it was not a money-making exercise and that there was going to be no change to the overall fare take. I put it to him that the commuters of Skerries and Balbriggan are subsidising other rail users on the network. Would he agree with this assertation? These people really feel shafted, especially given the context of the change in the timetable that happened last autumn. That caused major disruption for commuters in Balbriggan and beyond, and now this happens. It is completely unacceptable that the child fares have tripled. I have been contacted by many families who are outraged and dismayed. They have of kids going to school. They are doing their best to use public transport and now they have had this major cost piled upon them. I understand from what Mr. Creegan said that there is going to be a further review to correct the fare inequalities. Those are the exact words he used. Why were fare inequalities baked into the system when it was introduced a couple of weeks ago? Why were the inequalities for the likes of rail users in Balbriggan and Skerries not thought of before the system was introduced? I refer to the tripling of child fares. Why was this not thought of? If it was thought of, why was it decided to shaft these people or was it thought they would just not notice and the NTA would get away with it? Will the review consider putting Balbriggan and Skerries into zone 1 or is that completely beyond consideration for the NTA? Will the commuters there just have to remain in zone 2 permanently?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
I do not agree with the way the Senator phrased certain things there. I accept that people in Balbriggan and Skerries are now in zone 2 and that their fares have gone up a bit. I also recognise that people in Gormanston and Drogheda have seen their fares go down. What we have tried to do is to put in a fair system that is equitable for everyone. If we were to extend zone 1 for Skerries and Balbriggan - and the Senator will have seen the circles that define the zones on the map, and we would then have to create a pimple on the map there - Greystones and other places would then want to move too. We would end up with an inequitable system again. There is a rationale-----
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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We already have an inequitable system. We have people in County Dublin who are being treated like they do not live in County Dublin.
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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This is not London we are talking about, with all the different zones. We have a strong connection to our counties here in Ireland. People who live in Balbriggan and Skerries feel very connected to County Dublin. They feel they are not being treated like all other Dublin rail users.
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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The NTA is not going to consider moving Skerries and Balbriggan from zone 1? It is just not in the review.
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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My time is limited. In the context of child fares, was this not considered or did the NTA just think that families would not even notice?
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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Why were these inequalities put in place in the first instance? Now it is being reviewed and there might be a change in September.
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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Why was that not put in earlier?
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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Why were the interzone inequalities not considered, or were they?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
They were considered. Our ticketing system, though - and I am repeating what I said earlier - is nearly two decades old. That makes it challenging for us to do this. We are trying to see if we can do it. There are, however, challenges and these are more to do with technology than a willingness to do it.
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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When will the interzone inequalities be corrected?
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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I will move on to the Local Link service, which is excellent and which serves many rural communities. I was quite dismayed when it was stated that there is not going to be an increase in funding. In my area of north County Dublin, we have a strong demand for increased services along existing routes and for the introduction of new routes. I mention route 195, which services Balbriggan, Naul, Ballyboughal, Oldtown, Garristown and Ashbourne, in this regard. The service on this route is very good, but it needs to be improved with extra buses on the route. This is particularly the case when we consider that the last time the route was reviewed was in 2022. We have had hundreds of houses built in the rural areas along that route in the meantime, never mind in Ashbourne and Balbriggan. Taking the rural villages, 150 houses have been constructed in Garristown alone since 2022. Will a review of this and of many other routes take place? I understand the NTA is working under the Connecting Ireland rural mobility plan that runs from 2022 to 2026. After 2026, will we see increased services? Will we see it even before then? Is there even capacity to put on any increased services, given the lack of increase in the budget in this area?
Mr. John Nott:
In regard to route 195, we are reviewing the service now. In terms of the overall programme and funding, we are committed to the five-year programme. It is a big step change in rural transport and what we are really focused on doing is getting to the end point. We understand that after that we will have made a massive uplift to the level of rural transport. We will then move into what we call a business-as-usual scenario whereby we will review, enhance, and improve things from that point on. We have the funding we need. We have had very good support to deliver that programme, and our key priority is to get that five-year plan completed.
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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Okay.
There is no capacity to introduce any new routes beyond the existing ones.
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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Can I very quickly ask-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Certain members need to leave to take Commencement matters.
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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I might get back in then.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I am going to let everybody back in.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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To return to rural transport, I will not get down to the granular level of Local Link services between villages and towns but address the issue of people living outside cities and trying to get into the city for school, college or work. People working from nine to five can forget about it because anyone travelling from west County Limerick into Limerick city has to take a bus coming from either Tralee or Killarney into Limerick and then on to Dublin. They arrive every two hours in the morning, at 7.30 a.m. and 9.30 a.m.. The first arrives at 7.30 a.m. around Adare and it can be full when it arrives in Abbeyfeale. College students then have to wait for two hours for the next bus and arrive late for lectures. Those working in retail or a nine-to-five job cannot rely on buses. We are trying to get people out of their cars and into public transport but it does not seem to be working for people in county towns travelling into the cities. In that sense, we are limiting where people can work if they cannot afford a car. We all know how expensive it is for young people to get on the road, between buying a car and paying for driving lessons and insurance. Does the NTA have plans to build capacity and introduce more frequent services from County Limerick to Limerick city and beyond?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
In general, we have seen a massive uplift in public transport. People are finding public transport useful. That is part of the reason we are seeing full buses and coaches. In terms of routes into Limerick city and increasing capacity, it is part of the Connecting Ireland plan. I just do not know where it sits in the roll-out.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
Sometimes we can also address capacity issues. I do not know what type of vehicle is on that route. If it is a single-deck coach, we will sometimes swap it out for a double-deck coach which has another 20 or more seats. That is a possibility as well. It sounds like we will be doing something there. Whether it is enough, we will see.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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That is great. It is just about having that service. As I said, the Local Link service is great but that is for those over a certain age who are not trying to get to a job, school or college at a certain time. The times on that route do not seem to work. The buses are single capacity. Even if the NTA could look at providing double-deck buses, it would help. We have college students being left at the side of the road for two hours in the morning and again in the evening. On the reverse route, the bus arrives every two hours after 5.30 p.m. That is great for those working a nine-to-five day and can make it to the bus for 5 p.m. Retail and hospitality are not nine-to-five jobs. If people do not make the 5.30 p.m. bus, they are looking at 7.30 p.m. or 9.30 p.m., which is the last one out of the city.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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This is the route 300 Limerick coach service, the green bus, and the Bus Éireann service. The issues are frequency and capacity, both are working against users at the same time.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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After waiting patiently, having switched slots to facilitate Senator Collins, I call Senator Imelda Goldsboro.
Imelda Goldsboro (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentation. My issue is with the Local Link service in Tipperary South. Services have increased in the north and south of the county. I acknowledge the great work of Local Link and the its value to so many people. It is a lifeline. However, we do have a number of villages that do not have any services. They do not have door-to-door services or any public transport services, whether a taxi service or local bus service. That is a great concern because, unfortunately, we have a number of students who are not eligible for school transport and have concessionary tickets. They could avail of Local Link. We also have a number of individuals waiting for a driving test appointment in Tipperary South. In some places there is a 28-week backlog. We are also trying to encourage people into the workforce to upskill and train. We have great level of third level education in our towns in Tipperary South, which we are very proud of, but unfortunately we are not able to get these students into towns to do apprenticeships, post-leaving certificate courses or third level courses due to the lack of transport. Will the witnesses give me an up-to-date report on what the NTA's plans are for Tipperary South? I know it is all based on logistics, strategy and, most important, funding but if some tweaks were made, we would be able to provide linkage, connectivity and a positive outcome with little financial input.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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That concludes the first round. I propose that Deputies O'Rourke and Geoghegan be allowed three minutes each, after which we will hear again from members of the committee. We will not have an over-and-back engagement. Members will have an opportunity to ask one final question. I want to show respect to our witnesses who have been answering questions for 90 minutes. I appreciate that we have done well as regards time management at our first meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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In respect of public bus services in County Meath, there are significant concerns about services 109, 109a, 103, 105, 105X. Is there any update on the NTA's engagements with service providers in Meath, largely Bus Éireann, regarding challenges with drivers and mechanics? I know there are long-term issues with congestion but they require a longer term fix. On active travel projects, it seems to be the case, if Meath is anything to go by, that there is no funding for the initial projects that were planned. Is it the case that there are cost overruns? Is there a review of those projects that have been delivered? There are design issues with some of the local projects, for example, with buses and lorries meeting on narrow roads. On the review of the national development plan, has the NTA asked for increased investment? I am referring in that regard to the Navan rail project.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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There were particular pinch points but there are ongoing issues.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
Until the company gets many more additional drivers, which are hard to get in the market, we will never fully solve that.
On active travel projects, our funding levels this year are broadly the same as last year. Funding was slightly higher last year because we benefited form some transfers from other areas that were underspent. In the case of Meath, there is a really good team there delivering these projects. It has a portfolio of projects good to go but it has a challenge.
It is the same with a number of local authorities - we just cannot fund them all, so we will have to stagger their delivery. Broadly, the funding it got last year is more or less the same this year. It is just that it has been ambitious and has a portfolio, which is to be complimented. On the national development plan, we have provided a submission seeking to fund all the key things that you can imagine. Our transport strategy is the thing that defines the greater Dublin area. That ask included the Navan rail line, which is progressing on the design stage.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Is the NTMA involved in the design manual for urban roads and streets, DMURS, or is there an option to review that at some stage, because there are questions over it?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses. They will have seen today that KPMG produced a report talking about a €70 billion investment which is needed in infrastructure in Dublin and transport is a key part of that. There is one specific project that I want to ask about. As the witnesses know, Dublin Port is carrying out a major expansion plan to meet its future needs. As part of its plan, it will construct a new bridge alongside the toll bridge. As the planning documentation makes clear, that could facilitate a Luas extension from the Point to Ringsend, Irishtown and Poolbeg. Does the NTA see that as a viable project? The witnesses might update us. I know a demand survey is under way, which is being carried out by Transport for Ireland, TFI, or the NTA, or both. Will the witnesses give an indication of the timelines for that? Do they agree with me that with regard to developing a pipeline of delivery, it would be important for contractors who are bidding on the Luas to Finglas to know that future projects are coming down the line?
We are good at identifying infrastructure projects in this city and country that go wrong, but one that went extremely well and was on budget and on time was the cross-city Luas. The trouble is that we did not keep it going and did not continue those Luas extensions. Luas extensions, relative to MetroLink, for example, cost much less. This plan has been in the ether for some time, but now the houses are being built. About 500 homes in Poolbeg are basically complete. Ultimately, 10,000 new people will live in Poolbeg, with more development to come, including on lands that we perhaps do not even know of yet, on those sites to meet the future housing needs of our city. We do not want to go back to a stage where we build the homes and we do not provide the infrastructure to meet the homes. My ask is that this project be given much greater priority than it has been given to date and that, perhaps in the context of the national development plan review in July, this might be a project that could at least be earmarked to get to a planning stage in the lifetime of this Government. The witnesses' thoughts on that would be much appreciated.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
We had a lot of engagement with Dublin Port before it submitted an application to ensure the bridge was capable of facilitating a Luas crossing. It is and if that scheme proceeds, that is a possibility. We agree entirely with the Deputy about having a pipeline of projects available. Ireland Inc. could not afford a pipeline a number of years ago. We have had to spend a number of years catching up. We now have 12 BusConnects corridors, all of them An Bord Pleanála-approved. Some will have to go through the courts but they have all been approved. There are two DART projects and various others. We need to be in a place where we have a pipeline of projects ready to go. Luas Finglas is now with An Bord Pleanála. That will be the next big project to go. Luas Lucan, which we mentioned earlier, is at an early stage of design. We can pick up Luas Poolbeg too and what goes on at it. It is at analysis at the moment. On the Ringsend area, it is worth knowing that one of the BusConnects schemes is from Ringsend to the city centre, with a bridge across the River Dodder at Sir John Rogerson's Quay to allow a continuous priority bus corridor from that area to the city centre. I am not saying that takes away from the Luas but that is also in the system.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Following on from what I said previously, I was not suggesting that any of the local rail services had a large overrun on cost. In fact, Iarnród Éireann has always delivered and I think it should be considered for the Luas contract when it comes up. Regarding the left turn coming from Westland Row, I omitted to mention that the removal of disability car parking spaces was an issue.
Farranfore railway station has been considered as a transport hub. Extra car parking facilities were constructed there. There is concern among some Iarnród Éireann staff that it is being used by other people, such as people using the airport, who are clogging up many spaces. Are there any moves to address that? Following on from a question from Senator Duffy, the longest railway route in the country where people do not have a catering service is Tralee to Heuston. There are a number of train routes at 7 o'clock in the morning, for example, where elderly people who are travelling do not wish to take the 5.50 a.m. or a later train because they do not have to change at Mallow. They go at least four hours without being able to get a cup of tea. Could the NTA recommend that extra resourcing be given to address what is a basic need for someone travelling that length?
I have a question on the M50. Is there any proposal to convert the M50 hard shoulders to bus lanes? Is there any option of an overland Luas? I think that was discounted because of the lack of passenger capacity. Has separating the Luas lines been considered?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
Dublin City Council had a lot of engagement on disability parking spaces. I do not know the details but it is very conscious of that. I would be surprised if it has not come up with a good solution. I do not know about Farranfore train station. Irish Rail would need to tackle that if there is inappropriate parking. As was discussed earlier, the catering service needs funding. On the M50, the hard shoulder would not be appropriate for a bus lane for a number of reasons. It does not have the width and you cannot widen that road any further. We said that in the next transport strategy for Dublin, we would look at an orbital Luas, which I think is what the Deputy is referring to, around the M50. It was not justified at the moment but we said we would keep it under review, so we will look at it in a couple of years.
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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MetroLink is vital infrastructure, not just for north Dublin but for this country. We all know that the railway order was submitted in November 2024 and a decision is imminent. I believe from the timeline the NTA outlined that the tendering is expected to commence in 2026. Are preparations under way to adhere to that timeline? What is going on behind the scenes so that the tender documents can go out as soon as possible? It is really urgent at this stage. We have unprecedented levels of housebuilding in north Dublin, which is good, but we need to have the metro to deliver on sustainable communities there. The estuary park-and-ride will provide 2,000 spaces, which will be vital for all the communities living north of the estuary stop. We really need this to be delivered. Are we running to a strict timeline on this? There have been many problems and delays. When the planning permission is hopefully granted, will we be ready to fire the starting gun?
Mr. Eoin Gillard:
The short answer is "Yes". While the railway order process has been ongoing, separate teams have been working on the development of the tender documents and procurement documents that need to go out. In advance of the main works contracts being tendered, advanced and enabling works are happening. The tender processes have already commenced but their work would have to follow the railway order permission. Dr. Sean Sweeney has been put in place as the programme director. He has put in place a strong leadership team who are experienced in delivering on procurement of this nature and subsequently in the delivery of these projects.
We have a high level of confidence in hitting those timelines, subject to the railway order coming through.
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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Once that rail order comes through, will there be nothing then to throw things off schedule?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The Senator's time is up. The next speaker is Senator Duffy.
Mark Duffy (Fine Gael)
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Under the all-island rail review, the western rail corridor was identified as a priority project. What can be done to expedite the delivery of the line from Athenry to Claremorris, in particular, which includes 33 km of track in public ownership? We have been talking about billions of euro of investment in infrastructure for Dublin. This project has an estimated cost of approximately €220 million and would give connectivity between Galway and Mayo and across the western seaboard. Hypothetically, a passenger could get on a train in Mayo and go all the way to Dublin. It would be very positive for freight connectivity to Foynes and also for intercounty connectivity. I do not have an exact estimate of costs but we are looking at between €200 million and €300 million with inflation to deliver 33 km of track that is in public ownership. It is an open goal. What can be done to expedite it?
Will consideration be given to reopening Ballyvary and Balla railway stations? Those locations have seen an increase in population. We often talk about improving public transport and connectivity in rural areas. This is a great opportunity to stimulate revitalisation of the west of Ireland, including smaller settlements where railway stations have closed. I welcome the witnesses' consideration of and comments on that.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
I sort of referred to this earlier. Peculiarly, under legislation, once we go outside the greater Dublin area, we are not involved in the infrastructure side of it. We are not involved in the western rail corridor at all and the two rail stations the Senator mentioned are not under our remit. Irish Rail would report directly to the Department of Transport on those two issues.
Mark Duffy (Fine Gael)
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Is the NTA a national body or is it still, in effect, the Dublin transport authority?
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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It was indicated that the rail timetable review would look at the reallocation of fleet. When is that review going out to consultation and when does the NTA expect the new timetable to be finalised? Will a new draft timetable be put to consultation and, if so, is it available now?
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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When does Mr. Creegan expect the draft timetable to be published?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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The creation of a transport security force is an important commitment in the programme for Government. Will Mr. Creegan comment on what progress is being made towards realising that commitment and on the overall security and safety strategy for the public transport system?
In cities and towns around the country, there are issues with the supply of taxis. What steps is the NTA taking to improve the overall supply of taxis?
Will Mr. Creegan comment on the training being made available by operators of public transport in respect of passengers with additional needs, including wheelchair users and those with disabilities?
I echo Deputy Geoghegan's point regarding the importance of light rail. I would love to see a standing light rail projects team within the NTA that would enable projects to be rolled out quickly from place to place. That is the most efficient way to get a light rail system in place.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
As the Deputy said, the establishment of a transport security force is an objective in the programme for Government. We are involved with that, together with the Department of Transport, and other parties will be involved as well. We are at an early stage in the process and ideas are developing. One of the key objectives we see is to ensure whatever we put in place is co-ordinated with An Garda Síochána and we do not lose the assistance it can give in dealing with incidents. We provided a document to the Department of Transport, which it is considering. I am sure there will be further discussions and evolutions of that over the coming months.
On taxi supply, taxi numbers are growing. Last year, we saw the highest number of new driver licences since the NTA has existed. Approximately 2,000 new drivers were licensed in 2024, and about 1,200 additional vehicles. The numbers are growing. One of the issues has been with getting drivers to work late at night in the context of safety and security concerns. We increased night-time fares last year to encourage drivers to operate more at night. Initially, it looks like that is quite successful.
All the operators have training procedures in place in respect of passengers with disabilities.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The northern commuter line is closed again this bank holiday weekend, which has become standard for every bank holiday weekend for the past couple of years. It is essential to ensure we can move people from Dublin Fingal West in north County Dublin into the city centre and further north up to Drogheda. Can the witnesses confirm to what this closure relates? Is it in preparation for DART+ Coastal North and, if not, what is its purpose? I understand the roll-out of DART+ Coastal North has been delayed again until quarter 3 of this year. Will the witnesses confirm when the northern line will be completed to ensure it is capable of facilitating the DART? Is quarter 3 an absolute for the roll-out of DART+ Coastal North?
Mr. Eoin Gillard:
There is a mixture of reasons for the closures on bank holiday weekends between infrastructure maintenance and the ongoing maintenance of the railway. The projects are designed over the year and tend to try to work within any planned closures. I cannot say specifically what this weekend's closure is dealing with but there may be elements of the DART project being undertaken at the same time. We can come back with more detail if required.
Regarding the planned roll-out of DART services on the northern lie, the first phase is the battery-electric trains running to Drogheda. A subsequent phase, which is subject to rail order, will enhance the frequency as well. The testing and commissioning of the DART fleet is ongoing at the moment. It is somewhat innovative in that it is using battery-electric technology, with battery-charging infrastructure being put in place. The current planned timeline is subject to the authorisation to place the fleet into service, which is a statutory procedure. The timeline for that could change but, at the moment, the programme is as indicated.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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A lot of people tell me they are very dissatisfied with the bus service provided by Go-Ahead Ireland in Dublin. Buses do not turn up on time or there are ghost buses that do not turn up at all, yet the NTA continues giving contracts to that operator. Has it looked into this?
We have spoken about the all-island rail review. I live 80 miles away from the nearest train station. Mr. Creegan indicated this is not a rail issue the NTA deals with but has it been in discussion with Irish Rail on how to introduce connectivity, such as introducing bus services to Irish Rail services from places that have no station?
Reference was made to the ten-year age limit on taxi and hackney vehicles that was recently announced by the Minister. By the time consultation started, I was told the wording had changed to refer to taxis only. Why were the hackneys dropped? If a vehicle has a full NCT certificate, which means it has passed all tests, why is it being taken off the road? It could be a perfectly good vehicle. In rural communities, vehicles might not see as heavy a usage as elsewhere. I cannot understand why such vehicles would be pulled off the road after ten years even if the driver has full certification.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
Go-Ahead Ireland had problems in February and March this year with a lot of cancelled services. There is no doubt about that. Overall, we think it is providing a good service. It scored very highly in customer satisfaction feedback last year.
On the all-Ireland rail review, we build bus connections to rail into the Connecting Ireland work we do. When we are designing the service under Connecting Ireland, we also make sure that if there is a rail station to be served, we can connect to that.
On the ten-year taxi change rule, I think that was because a commitment was made in the programme for Government. We replicated whatever was in that. That is my recollection of that.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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In 2023, Annacotty Business Park did not make the BusConnects report. There are more than 3,000 people working there. The chamber of commerce and employers in the park undertook a survey and 87% of people said they would use public transport if it was an option. The nearest connection is 2 km away. We are waiting for the new BusConnects plan to be rolled out. Will Annacotty Business Park appear in it? It is something that needs to be considered.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
What we have decided to do with Annacotty, because it is in an awkward place a little bit outside the city, is that we will run a trial for six months at least, if not longer, when we launch BusConnects Limerick. We will extend one of the bus services out there at the peak hours because from the feedback we have received most people seem to attend the business park during peak hours. We will run that for six months and we will see if we get enough usage to justify its continuation. That is what we propose to do for Annacotty. We will extend the BusConnects routes to serve Annacotty on a trial basis during peak hours when we roll them out.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I understand that most of the people attend the park at off-peak hours. They are going in and going out.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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That is correct. My apologies; Mr. Creegan is right.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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If my information is correct, we will meet again next week and will get a chance to discuss the issue I want to raise in detail, which is recent fare changes that affect my constituents, particularly those in Balbriggan and Skerries. I will give one example of a man and his wife. He has parking in Dublin city centre, which he has never used. However, because of the increase in fares, it has become significantly cheaper for him to drive in. This is counterintuitive. The price for him and his wife, including parking, has gone up to €100 a week. It is cheaper to put diesel in the car and drive in. That is the impact this is having; ditto on the 300% increase in child fares. I cannot fathom it. I understand in the time remaining that Mr. Creegan is not going to be able to go into it in detail about it, and while we will have a chance to discuss that next week, I would like to hear even a brief response. My office in Balbriggan has been inundated with representations from people living in Skerries and Balbriggan and parents living all over who are utterly dismayed at this. They are bringing their kids up to use public transport and to do the right thing, and it appears the NTA is acting in a counterintuitive way.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
We said earlier we are aiming to introduce a weekly child fare at a lower level and targeting that we will have that in by the start of the next school year at the beginning of September. We are working on that. I said already that we accept that there are people who are being charged more for their fares. There are a lot of people who are being charged less, as the Deputy will know.
Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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They are not the ones contacting their TDs, with respect.
Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I have two issues. Shankill BusConnects has caused huge upset in a small village in south Dublin that will be substantially changed in a bad way because of plans, only to add two minutes to the route. I know it is considered a done deal by Mr. Creegan's office but it is something the NTA needs to examine with a view to changing it, taking on board some of the reasonable and constructive alternative suggestions that have been made by the community in Shankill.
The other issue relates to the Dart wall along the strand at Booterstown from the Merrion Gates as far as Dún Laoghaire Harbour. It is a 200-year-old wall. It is no longer fit for purpose. There has been overtopping by the sea at high tide or low pressure times. It is going to have to be replaced. When it is replaced, will the NTA please give consideration to putting the S2S, the Sutton to Sandycove cycleway and promenade, on top of whatever solution the NTA puts there to protect the DART line?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
The Deputy is referring to the Bray to the city centre BusConnects corridor going through Shankill village. As he will know, we had a lot of engagement with the people of Shankill before that planning application went in. It then went to An Bord Pleanála. It made a decision on the scheme, approving it. The Deputy is probably aware there are a number of judicial reviews against that decision. Until they get settled, that scheme is not proceeding anywhere.
On the Strand Road quay wall, I was not aware of that. I will bring that to the city council's attention. It is in their jurisdiction.
Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Part of it is in Dún Laoghaire Rathdown as well.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I have a final few questions. It might have been touched upon, but I want to mention the positive impact active travel measures are having at local level. The NTA's report states that €290 million was spent on just under 900 projects last year. If I go back to my time as a councillor for the Clonmel borough district on Tipperary County Council, there was always an opportunity to get small-scale projects done such as the pedestrian crossing or a €15,000 project. According to the NTA's briefing, the average project value is €300,000. I am not too sure whether small projects are still allowed. Active travel measures are needed urgently in small villages. That should be kept in mind. Can Mr. Creegan clarify whether the small €15,000 project still qualifies?
The local area hackney licence was a good initiative. I am puzzled that so few were granted. Since it was launched across 14 counties maybe 26 licences were granted and only one in Tipperary. This is where the operator could operate within 10 km radius at a set fare and could not pick up. The shopkeeper could drop the elderly person home, or the publican could drop someone home. Mr. Creegan said the initiative will be reviewed, which I welcome. It is a good initiative. I do not know whether insurance is an implication. I tried to engage with some stakeholders on the issue. The NTA has committed to a review of the initiative. Mr. Creegan said the number of taxi licences is increasing. I am a bit puzzled. The committee received a communication from the Taxis for Ireland Coalition. It said that there were 47,500 licences in 2009. That decreased to 34,000 licences in 2012. As it currently stands, there are 27,500. There has been a 25% decrease in 13 years. I cannot reconcile this with Mr. Creegan's comment that they are on the way up. There are concerns about the supply of taxis and the wheelchair accessible vehicle requirement. Can the NTA engage with the coalition to see if that can be amended in any way to increase supply?
I want to come back to the rural transport programme, which I want to see as a permanent public service. One member referred to it as a step change. It has been a positive change at local level. It has transformed rural connectivity in south Tipperary and across the county. The contracts were initially granted in 2018 for four years with an extension of one year. Are those contracts up for renewal? At what stage will the NTA sit down with the representatives of the Local Link network? There is an opportunity to renew, enhance and improve the network. Can the NTA commit to engaging with the 15 local area networks to explore how a new vision to reimagine the existing network can be developed, bearing in mind the positive impact Local Link is having? If I talk to Local Link operators on the ground, they talk positively about the engagement with the NTA but we can do so much more.
I wish to mention the town bus in Clonmel. It is not so long ago that Mr. Nott was in the chamber of the historic town hall of Clonmel. We were talking about launching a new town bus, which has been up and running for two years now. Everyone might forgive me for mentioning a local matter, but it is very important. It ticks many boxes and is working well. The numbers are really positive. The only concern I have is that a review has not yet been planned. I will put Mr. Nott on the spot. Is the NTA able to commit to a review in the coming months in which it sits down with stakeholders and elected members, both from the Oireachtas and the local authority, to see how we can improve the service in Clonmel? We are looking for an extra couple of stops. There would be a few minor changes. I would appreciate if the NTA could agree to that review today and to engaging with the 15 local area networks in the context of rolling out new and, I hope, longer term contracts in order to plan better, enhance and improve what is a really good service.
Will the witnesses clarify on active travel, taxi numbers and the local area hackneys? We will conclude after that.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
Regarding active travel, we fund small projects. What we have asked local authorities to do - it is not a show-stopper - is to bundle projects together. For example, instead of one pedestrian crossing, three or four could be bundled together to reduce the paperwork involved. It is to reduce bureaucracy. We fund many little projects around the place but people may not see that because they are part of a bigger bundle in order to get them delivered.
The local area hackney was an initiative first introduced ten years ago but it has never taken off. There are various reasons it has not. Insurance has been an impediment. We are reviewing it at the moment and our intention is to develop an enhanced version, which we hope will be before the end of the year.
Pre 2009, many more taxi licenses were issued but were not necessarily operating. After that, the number was somewhere between 22,000 and 26,000 taxis overall. It went down before and during Covid but it is now on an upward trend. Last year, the greatest number of drivers entered the industry in the past 15 years. Regarding the figure from 15 years ago, those licenses were not being used or were what we call "inactive" but were included in the statistics. We are in a better place now overall.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Is there any compromise on the wheelchair-accessible vehicle?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I am not advocating for an either-or approach.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
At the moment, there is no intention to change it. A few years ago, we changed the requirements for wheelchair vehicles to permit smaller size vehicles. We put in place grants. If people approach it appropriately, the cost of the wheelchair-accessible vehicle with the grant should be no more than the cost of a normal saloon car. We think we have equalised it.
We will engage with transport co-ordination units. I think we put contracts in place with them last year. These will go for a few years. We have a positive relationship with them, which we want to continue. There may be a route to change that in the future, but I do not think of it as a singular body. It is something dispersed.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Will the NTA commit to calling them all in within the next three months for an engagement?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
We meet all of them regularly. It is not that we need to bring them in especially; they come in. I am not sure how often, but they all come in regularly and whatever needs to be discussed gets discussed. In terms of the organisational arrangements, that is a bigger issue and will take more time to sort out.
I will speak on behalf of Mr. Nott regarding the Clonmel bus. We might not do a full-scale review, but we will engage with the relevant people to pick up changes that might be required.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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What about the Clonmel bus to Shannon?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry.
I will conclude the meeting. We have gone five minutes over time and I apologise for that. We had reasonably good time management today, but it goes to show that it is tight with 14 members and there is a flow of members. I hope that we have had a productive and constructive engagement, that there were a lot of takeaways and information flowed to us as members. We discussed what the priorities were. There are a number of follow-ups. The NTA might revert through the committee structure. If a particular member requested a report, the NTA might revert to the clerk and it will be shared with all members.
I conclude the meeting and thank the witnesses from the NTA for their time. I also thank the support staff.