Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 26 April 2018
Public Accounts Committee
2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
9:00 am
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome everyone to consideration of the Chapter 13 - development of ICT systems by the Department of Justice and Equality, and the appropriation accounts Vote 24 - Justice and Equality.
We are joined by officials from the Department of Justice and Equality and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. From the Department of Justice and Equality I welcome Ms Oonagh McPhillips, acting Secretary General to the meeting. It is Ms McPhillips's first meeting at the Committee of Public Accounts in that capacity. She is accompanied by Mr. Donncha O'Sullivan, Mr. John O'Callaghan, Mr. Michael Kirrane, Mr. Seamus Clifford, Mr. John Kennedy, Mr. Noel Dowling and Ms Anne Marie Treacy from the Department. From the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform we are joined by Mr. Eoin Dormer. All of the witnesses are very welcome to today's meeting.
I remind members, witnesses and those in the public gallery to turn off their mobile phones. Putting phones onto silent mode is not adequate because it will interfere with the recording system.
I advise witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of that evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.
Members of the committee are reminded of the provisions of Standing Order 186 to the effect that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies. While we expect witnesses to answer questions put by the committee clearly and with candour, witnesses will be treated fairly and with respect and consideration at all times, in line with the witness protocol, which is standard in the House for all Oireachtas committees.
The lead speaker for this session is Deputy Alan Kelly, who will have 20 Minutes, and the second speaker is Deputy Jonathan O'Brien who will have 15 minutes. Other members have indicated in the following sequence: Deputies Marc MacSharry, David Cullinane, Catherine Connolly and Catherine Murphy.
I invite Mr. Andy Harkness from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General to make the opening statement.
Mr. Andy Harkness:
Vote 24 for justice and equality provides funding for a broad range of services and activities undertaken directly by the Department of Justice and Equality, or funded by the Department through the provision of grants. This includes the Irish Probation Service, the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, the Office of the State Pathologist, the Garda Ombudsman Commission and many others. An overview of the main funded services and agencies is given in a summary diagram attached to this statement.
Members will also be aware that, in 2016, Vote 24 was one of eight Votes that made up the justice group. The others were the Votes for An Garda Síochána, the Irish Prison Service, the Courts Service, the Property Registration Authority, the Valuation Office, the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, and the Policing Authority. These were all areas for which the Department had policy and legislative responsibility, but which are funded and accounted for separately.
Since 2016, there have been a number of significant changes in the organisational landscape of the justice group. For example, responsibility for the Charities Regulatory Authority transferred from the Department of Justice and Equality to the Department of Rural and Community Development in 2017. The Votes for the Property Registration Authority and the Valuation Office transferred to the housing, planning and local government Vote group in 2018. The 2016 appropriation account for Vote 24 records gross expenditure of almost €390 million in the year, spread across five spending programmes, as indicated in the figures provided. More detail on the composition of the respective programmes can be seen in note 3 to the appropriation account.
On the receipts side, appropriations in aid of the Vote totalled almost €65 million in 2016. Almost three quarters of this related to a range of fees charged in respect of immigration registration, nationality and citizenship certification and visa issuance. For the Vote as a whole, there was a net underspend of €25.5 million relative to the Estimate provision for 2016. This surplus was liable for surrender.
The Comptroller and Auditor General was satisfied, following the audit, that the account properly presents the transactions on the Vote during 2016. He drew attention, however, in the audit report to certain concerns around the development by the Department of a number of information and communications technology, or ICT, projects.
The Department provides ICT support services for many functional areas and for agencies within the Vote group. Between 2012 and 2016, its activity in this regard included projects for three of the agencies it grant funds: a case management system for the Insolvency Service of Ireland; a reporting and registration system for the Charities Regulatory Authority; and an online licence renewal system for the Private Security Authority. The Department had incurred direct project costs of around €4.6 million to the end of March 2017 on these projects, with €3.6 million of this relating to the Insolvency Service of Ireland. Functional gaps remain in the systems developed for the Insolvency Service of Ireland and the Charities Regulatory Authority. Both organisations are in the process of procuring replacement systems from the marketplace.
Our examination found that the projects, which were different in scale, complexity and background, had a number of shortcomings in relation to planning and oversight. The report includes recommendations in relation to strengthening the Department’s systems and procedures in the areas of business case development, adoption and monitoring of project budgets, and project governance. The Accounting Officer accepted all the recommendations and will be able to brief the committee on their implementation.
The Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the audit of the appropriation account also drew attention to non-effective expenditure of €3.89 million in relation to the fit-out and rent of a property leased for the Probation Service in 2008. Due to planning restrictions, the property could not be used for the purposes for which it was acquired, and the Department could not find an alternative use for the premises. Legal proceedings in relation to the lease were settled in late 2016. A summary of the events leading to the settlement is presented in note 6.8 of the account. The Comptroller and Auditor General reported in 2012 about the problems with the lease.
The previous Committee of Public Accounts sought to examine the matter on foot of his report but could not proceed at the time because of the legal proceedings.
Finally, the Comptroller and Auditor General drew attention in the audit report to non-competitive procurement of goods and services to the value of €6.1 million disclosed by the Accounting Officer in the statement on internal financial control.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Harkness. I now call Ms McPhillips to make her opening statement.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
The Vote of the Department of Justice and Equality covers a wide remit, encompassing both the administrative divisions of the Department and a broad range of offices and agencies across the justice and equality sector. In all, there are approximately 60 individual subheads reflected in the Vote across five expenditure programmes.
I refer first to the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the development of ICT systems. It is important to note at the outset that the Department fully accepts the recommendations in the report and there is now in place a much stronger governance structure than when the projects in question commenced. The largest project mentioned in the Insolvency Service of Ireland started over five years ago and was completed in 2016 at a cost of €3.6 million. The context in which this was achieved was, by any standard, unprecedented. The establishment of the new service was a top troika priority and was monitored weekly at the time by the Government and the Cabinet committee on mortgage arrears as well as by the troika in their regular reviews. The Department was given the task of setting up the Insolvency Service of Ireland, ISI, and the director designate was appointed in November 2012 while work continued on the draft legislation going through the Oireachtas. Given the state of national indebtedness, this was a core deliverable in the troika agreement and, obviously, an ICT system would be required in order that this commitment could deliver on its mandate. This was achieved in very pressurised circumstances and the ISI opened its doors in September 2013. While key staff were still in the process of being recruited, the Department's ICT division has engaged in respect of the development on an urgent basis of an online case management system. Because of the need to deliver the system quickly, a decision was taken to develop it in-house within the existing Lotus Notes environment. This was undertaken by the Department's own IT team with support from contractors under established contracts. While the case management system, the OCMS, is sometimes described as a single project, it is in fact an extensive and complex system which supports several elements linked to the personal insolvency infrastructure introduced by the 2012 Act. It comprises two websites and three separate elements: the interface with the Money Advice and Budgeting Service and registration of practitioners; the interface with the Courts Service, which is unique and groundbreaking and works well; and the case management system itself. Various developments in the legislative structure meant the requirements were somewhat difficult to define, which contributed to the complexities of the system design and implementation. Nevertheless, it was recognised in an external review we commissioned in 2016 that the hard work and co-operation by the joint project team resulted in the initial application going live on day one, as required, in September 2013.
It is accepted that difficulties emerged in the project for a period after this, which led to the then Secretary General putting in place strengthened governance arrangements, including the appointment of an experienced external chair and a new project board from February 2015. It is also acknowledged that there are ongoing shortcomings within the existing system, particularly the level of manual intervention required as well as gaps in the management information and reporting needs of the service. In the past year, the ISI, with support and oversight from the Department and the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, has gone to the market for a new system, and I understand that procurement process is now nearing conclusion. By the time this is implemented, the existing ICT system will have been operational for approximately five years and will have been depreciated in full. As Accounting Officer, I continue to work towards strengthening controls and implementing both internal and external audit recommendations. In addition to the strengthening of the project management and governance arrangements, we are undertaking a comprehensive risk assessment across all aspects of ICT operations. A further ongoing audit is reviewing the controls in place in a representative number of the bodies and agencies and how these organisations link back to the central ICT shared service. The outcome of these audits will assist us in further strengthening the controls and management of the function across the Department.
Turning to other matters in Vote 24, members may recall that my predecessor provided an update to the committee last May on the leased premises on Wolfe Tone Street, which was procured in 2008 for use by the Probation Service. As the Comptroller and Auditor General's office has pointed out, this was the subject of legal proceedings which were concluded in late 2016. This is now reflected in the 2016 appropriation account. It was previously the subject of a report by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his 2011 report. The central issue in this case was assurance provided by the vendor in respect of planning permission for the premises. In his 2011 report, the Comptroller and Auditor General outlined that it was reasonable for the Department to rely on the legal advice provided in respect of the planning permission. The total cost in respect of this matter, including the legal settlement in 2016, was €3.89 million. The settlement was based on strong legal advice and resulted in closure of the matter, thus avoiding any further costs accruing to the State. The Department relied on legal advice at all times in respect of this matter.
Throughout 2016, the Department was also implementing its programme for change arising from the 2014 Toland report. Over the past four years, we have focused on measures to strengthen our revised culture and identify and embed behavioural change. All of this is supported by robust governance frameworks, revised management processes and formal agreements with the relevant agencies of the Department. We continue to review and update these with a view to driving further improvement in the processes. In 2017 the management board decided it would be timely to review progress on the implementation of the programme and engaged external experts to do this in a rigorous and independent manner. That report was published earlier this year and it identified that significant progress has been made and also where more has to be done. The board agreed with the analysis, which reflects its own view and feedback from staff across the Department. I circulated details of the progress being made, and this is also published in more detail on the Department's website, so I will not detain the committee with that.
Arrangements for the governance of agencies, which is a particular focus, have been formalised and strengthened. At the end of 2017, framework agreements were in place with 23 agencies. These are all published on our website. The process of updating and renewing annual oversight agreements for 2018 has begun and, again, these will be published when agreed. Seven have been published to date this year.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Can we get this up on the screen properly? I was reading it and I got lost.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We have so many people here that we tend to read from the screen. Can we get online?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
Responsibility for a number of agencies was transferred during 2017, as the Comptroller and Auditor General has said. Again, this move is in line with recommendations in the Toland report. Obviously, these moves are a matter for Government and policy, but we continue to evaluate the strategic fit of agencies within the Department with a view to achieving better alignment.
An ongoing and key aspect of the change programme is the proposed restructuring of the Department, which members will have heard about. In 2016, we engaged external experts to help us evaluate the broad structure of the organisation and to advise how it could be more effectively organised to deliver on strategic and business objectives.
Members will also be aware of the report of the independent review of the response of the Department to a request for a document from the disclosures tribunal, carried out by Mr. Michael Collins, SC, which was published at the end of March. Obviously, I cannot trespass on the tribunal's ongoing deliberations but I note the finding that there was no attempt to conceal information from the tribunal and that officials acted in good faith at all times. It is also reassuring that the review found no evidence of any failure to comply with orders from the tribunal. It is of course a matter of concern that emails were not located as part of the discovery process, and we are putting new measures in place that are aimed at ensuring that an oversight of this kind cannot happen in future. These new measures include the use of specialist consultants, where needed, for discovery and the establishment of a separate unit to interact with tribunals and commissions. There is also a Civil Service-wide initiative under way in respect of electronic file management which will help to ensure that electronic documents can more easily be associated with relevant files. The report of this was submitted to the Department's management board in October 2017, and the primary recommendation - sorry, I am after messing up my own pages, I think. I am on the page that begins "The report was submitted to the management board in October 2017". This concerns the restructuring. I have just a few paragraphs left.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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How many paragraphs are there to go?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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There is an issue of different versions going on here, I think. There are two different-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is hard to keep up.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The lady operating the equipment cannot know when Ms McPhillips is going to skip certain parts.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Where are we now, so we can-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What is the start of the paragraph?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Where is that in the script?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is on the missing page.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will work it out. It is just a question of relying on-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is an ICT problem.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Not yet.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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In the script Ms McPhillips has, the paragraphs are very-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is the second paragraph on page 6.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I understand. What is the start of Ms McPhillips's next paragraph?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I believe this is a different version.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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"The restructuring".
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I see it. "The restructuring is a key priority".
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The issue is simple - we have a submission with a longer paragraph than Ms McPhillips's.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Where she started her paragraph was half way down ours. Ours starts: "An ongoing and key aspect of the change programme". Will Ms McPhillips return to that point? That is page 6.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
An ongoing and key aspect of the change programme is the restructuring of the Department. We have engaged external experts to help us evaluate the broad structure and advise on how it could be more effectively organised to deliver on strategic and business objectives. The report was submitted to the management board in October 2017 and its primary recommendation on restructuring the Department into two portfolios - home affairs and justice and equality - was agreed. The restructuring is a key priority and an implementation group has commenced work, which will assist the work of the independent effectiveness and renewal group appointed by the Minister in January. This group, chaired by Mr. Pádraig Ó Ríordáin, has met the Minister and me as well as the management board and is currently engaging with a range of stakeholders.
In line with its terms of reference, the group will assess progress in implementing the recommendations of the Toland report, reviewing the structure and culture of the Department and examining the relationship between the Department and An Garda Síochána. The group will provide progress reports to the Government and the Oireachtas, the first of which is due at the end of June, with quarterly reports thereafter. The Minister will then provide a progress report and recommendations for any further action in the first quarter of 2019. We will continue to engage with and fully support the group in its important work.
Members will be aware that the report of the independent review of the Department's response to requests for documents from the disclosures tribunal was published at the end of March. I cannot trespass on the tribunal's ongoing deliberations, but I note the finding that there was no attempt to conceal information from it and that officials acted at all times in good faith. It is also reassuring that the review found no evidence of any failure to comply with orders from the tribunal. It is of course a matter of concern that emails were not located as part of the discovery process and we are putting new measures in place. I believe I have read the rest of this section before, so I will not do so again, if that is all right with the Chairman.
The final part of my submission relates to the post of Secretary General. As deputy secretary, I became acting Secretary General.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Where is that in the submission?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is ad lib.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
Yes. I became acting Secretary General when my predecessor retired last November. I have been designated as Accounting Officer and I fulfil most, if not all, of the functions of that position, including accounting to the committee. My understanding is that the Government will advertise the position when the effectiveness and renewal group reports in June.
I apologise for the confusion.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is fine. Before I call Deputies, I will seek some clarification for people who are watching this meeting. Ms McPhillips stated that the Department was to be restructured into two portfolios. The first was home affairs, a name we are used to hearing where the British Ministry is concerned. Ms McPhillips might explain what is meant by "home affairs" and "justice and equality".
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Under which one are the courts?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Where would immigration issues fall?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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As well as policing and criminal matters, our home affairs would cover immigration and insolvency.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Ms McPhillips might send us a briefing note.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a draft document within the Department that a member of staff could have emailed to us?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The document should relate to the Irish version. We should not be----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We do not want to see the British version.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Does that specify what falls under home affairs?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Ms McPhillips might ask one of her officials to contact her office or liaise with our secretariat in the next few minutes. There will be a break at lunch.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to have the document in my hand as the meeting progresses.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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A new system is being proposed.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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With big changes.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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When is this-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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No, I will let Deputy Kelly contribute first. Big changes lie ahead.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am only-----
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am just asking for clarification. I am not going to-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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This is an important issue and, before we do anything else, we want to have an understanding of it. I am not even clear on it myself.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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With one Minister.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
That is why each will be headed by a deputy secretary. For the time being, it will remain a single Department. Whether it splits in two is a political decision. The effectiveness and renewal group is examining the report and will make recommendations in terms of a political split.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I will get our staff to speak with some of Ms McPhillips's staff now off camera. If the information is on the website, we can download and circulate it.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I am not referring to the full report, but to the key point on the division into two.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Having it would be useful so that the committee might know where the Department is going. We will be able to have it circulated shortly if it can be downloaded.
Deputy Kelly is the lead speaker today.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I welcome the officials and wish them the best of luck, in particular the acting Secretary General. I appreciate that she has a difficult job. Indeed, it is probably one of the most difficult jobs in the Civil Service. I say that genuinely.
Before I discuss IT matters, I will ask Ms McPhillips to bring a message to her Department's policing division. Yesterday, I attended the justice committee for three hours. Without much notification, the acting Garda Commissioner and the deputy commissioner did not bother to turn up. It was an insult to the democratic institutions of the State and a joke. I do not doubt that one of them could have attended. For example, the deputy commissioner was handing out certificates at Templemore, but no one was being conferred until 2 p.m. and the meeting was at 9 a.m. I hope that Ms McPhillips will communicate my message through the Department. The committee was disgusted by what happened. We could not get accountability because the chief person who attended was not able to answer many of our questions, given his role in the organisation. He was not ranked.
Turning to the IT projects that have come under scrutiny, there was an ICT governance group. I welcome that Ms McPhillips has openly stated that there were issues in this regard, as it is not always the case. An ICT governance group was in place, but did it actually do much? Did it not spot some of these issues? I am a former IT manager. Did the group not see the-----
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
The governance group's remit was focused in its initial few years on new programmes, large developments and so forth. There was a governance process around them. The decision taken in respect of the Insolvency Service of Ireland, ISI, was to do it in-house, so it did not form part of a new contract. There was no procurement process, as it was done by developers attached to our IT division. That choice was made deliberately in order to achieve speed and avoid a lengthy procurement process like the one we are now going through with separate projects.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Should the Department have involved outside people?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Department was a victim of the circumstances, in that, after the legislation was passed, it had to put these provisions in place.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It was bad planning, although I do not mean on the Department's part.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
It had to do with the circumstances at the time. Everyone will recall the troika's priorities and the pressure to deliver on same. The Department did deliver on them.
The system is not perfect, but large elements of it are working fine. In fact, the piece I mentioned in terms of the interface with the courts is unique in its approach. The court based process for insolvency is paperless with things being done on screen, just as the committee does things on screen. It was a choice made at the time to make sure it could be done as easily as possible.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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One of the recommendations is that the Department should review its governance approach to planning and managing complex ICT development projects to ensure the system developed is fit for purpose and will achieve value for money. What lessons have been learned? In large-scale IT projects - I have been involved in a number, including the bringing in of the Leap card which was an IT project - there is always an iterative learning process and a process of continuous review. It is part of management practice. Did that take place?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
Yes. The governance process has evolved quite considerably since 2012 and 2014 when this was done. Now with the Department's ITC governance group, it covers all projects. As usual, new business and any development in terms of upgrades have to come to the governance group with a business case and a set budget. They are also tracked by the governance group through their development and it reports back within various timelines. As well as this, we carry out a post-implementation review when a project is over to try to take up the learnings.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What were the key learnings in the post-implementation reviews of the three projects?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
The main issue is governance and keeping an eye on it. The other thing is the need to be very clear at the beginning on requirements. As I mentioned, one of the complications is that we were trying to design something for a moving target. Initially, the legislation was still being developed and staff were still being recruited. Their requirements were still being defined and that was an issue in developing an IT system. Clarity at the beginning of a process is key. The other issue is the processes of the governance group and making sure people are clear on their roles and to whom they report. We have also appointed external members to the governance groups; therefore, we have an expert from Revenue which has a very large IT operation, from which we have gained. We also have an external member who gained a lot of experience in a past life of development.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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On reading the documentation I had a degree of sympathy - I say in jest that this is coming from me - because if we look at the projects, there were moving targets. In a previous life I was involved in large-scale IT projects. If those involved do not have defined terms and goals, they really face extended costs and timelines. As part of the process with the troika, potentially we could see other IT projects that were still ongoing and coming before us from other Departments as a result of similar circumstances.
I will jump around the place with reference to other areas. The premises of the Probation Service constitutes a very unusual story, of which Ms McPhillips outlined a little in her opening statement. From where did the calculation of €1.8 million as the settlement figure come?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Will Ms McPhillips get it and break it down for us?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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No problem. What were the issues with planning permission?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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My real issue is how could the legal advisers who worked with the Department recommend that it sign the lease when it did not have planning permission.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Did someone just mess up?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Are there consequences for the people who made the mistake because it involves a lot of taxpayers' money?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
The decision taken subsequently was to try to reduce the exposure of the State as quickly as possible. When we discovered the mistake, we very quickly stopped paying for the lease, which obviously left us open to possible liability because we were involved in a legal contract, but we felt it was the best thing to do to reduce the liability of the State.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is bizarre that the Department received legal advice to take on a lease when it did not have planning permission. Somebody did not do their job. There is an exposure to the taxpayer and there has to be some way of chasing it down the line.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I know that.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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According to Ms McPhillips's opening statement, the total was €3.89 million.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Ms McPhillips might not have it today, but-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Will Ms McPhillips briefly gives us the breakdown?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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This is on the Chairman's time.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Will Ms McPhillips go through it line by line?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Therefore, the Department spent that amount, but it did not get to use the building.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Therefore, €1 million was paid in rent.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Approximately another €1 million was spent in kitting out the building.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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There was a settlement figure of €1.8 million-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is extraordinary stuff and an absolute waste of money.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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My real issue is that I know that the Department received legal advice from somewhere else, but for the taxpayer, there has to be a chase-back.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is it the Office of the Chief State Solicitor? Will Ms McPhillips just tell the public who-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The committee can write to the Office of the Chief State Solicitor.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That would be advisable because in this scenario there has not been a process to recoup the money.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is a write-off.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Then we will have to chase it.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The committee should agree that if poor legal advice cost the taxpayer €3.8 million, we need to write to the author of the advice.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We should write to the Office of the Chief State Solicitor asking for an explanation.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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How many years ago was it?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It was several years ago.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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In 2011.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The figure was finally settled on in 2016.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is why it is included in this year's accounts. It is a scandal that something of this scale cost the taxpayer this amount of money.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is the Office of Chief State Solicitor.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Before the Chairman makes a definitive decision on what we will do - I agree with everything Deputy Alan Kelly has suggested - we will be talking more about this issue throughout the meeting and might refine or add to our actions.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will probably do so.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I will jump around the place with reference to IT contracts. There is an ongoing internal audit process for An Garda Síochána IT projects. Does the Department have a concern about how IT contracts have been managed in recent years by An Garda Síochána?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I know that. I am only asking Ms McPhillips her opinion.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Has concern ever been expressed internally in the Department? I have very strong opinions about where this is going. That is a very specific question.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am sorry, but I am not being facetious. Is Ms McPhillips aware if concern has ever been expressed internally about the way in which serious volumes of money are spent on IT contracts and the way in which procurement is ongoing in An Garda Síochána?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am aware of that. That is not what I am asking Ms McPhillips. I am asking her or anyone else from the Department if any concern was ever expressed to anyone internally on the contracts for IT in An Garda Síochána. If there was not, she should just say so.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Is anyone else aware of any?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Some people are here from the policing area. I note that there is no concern and there never has been any.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Ms McPhillips said she was not aware.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Ms McPhillips was not aware.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes, or that nobody here was aware of it. If anyone is aware, they might say so now. No? This is for clarity, because I do not want to mislead anyone or misrepresent anyone.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What was the Department's opinion on that?
Ms Anne Barry:
As we understand it now, we received it in January. There has been engagement with the Garda on it and steps are being taken to ensure that the recommendations are being implemented. The new Office of Government Procurement framework is in place and is being used by An Garda Síochána to tender for its skills requirements, so it is seeking to address the issues that have been raised.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Some of it. I am not trying to catch anyone out but my issue here is whether there was concern within the Department. I asked parliamentary questions on this, as did others, and the report came through in January. The Committee on Justice and Equality discussed this yesterday. An IT audit report will come before this committee in the future. I believe that this will require an external investigation on the scale of the projects, the tendering or lack thereof, the verbal sign-off on contracts, the volume of people on site in An Garda Síochána, and the manner in which those people were allowed access on site. I believe there are issues here on taxpayers' money, security, and tendering-procurement across the board. A report is coming through on that. As the overseeing Department, I want to know if the Department of Justice and Equality had any concern on this issue. The witnesses have clarified that. We will deal with that in due course and take on board what Ms McPhillips said.
I turn to other issues. On taxpayers' money, and I will not encroach on the tribunal, the Department made a decision to sign off verbally on funding for the Charleton tribunal and for the Charleton liaison committee. Is it normal that a Department would give verbal sanction without Department of Public Expenditure and Reform co-agreement? Is it normal for the Department of Justice and Equality to do something verbally and then proceed to give it in writing a substantial time later on something like that? Is that proper practice?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
By and large we would deal with sanctions in writing, obviously. These were particular circumstances and, as the Deputy will be aware, sanction took some months to come through. In the meantime the tribunal was up and running and would need someone to liaise with. The verbal sanction that was given was ultimately confirmed by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. It would not be a daily practice, it would not happen very often, but it would need to be able to happen. One needs to have the flexibility where it is needed.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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In normal practice that would not happen.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Are the people who were hired under that process still in place? Is that unit still operating?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am not asking for names, but the people working there-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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On the immigrant investor programme, IIP, under the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, INIS, how does Ms McPhillips feel this is working? Does she feel it is working well?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
Yes. The Government entered into this commitment in 2015 to receive a number of people from Italy and Greece. Apologies, I thought the Deputy meant the Irish refugee protection programme, IRPP. Yes. There are a lot of things happening in relation to it. I will ask Mr. Kirrane to respond as he is much more familiar with the detail.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I will get to my specific issues first. I supported this. I think it is a very good project. We have had correspondence on this. I want to know if all the money is being spent, if everything is being processed in time, that there are no conflicts of interest in the Department regarding it, and that we will see greater funding coming through it soon.
Mr. Michael Kirrane:
The investor programme has been operating since 2011. It was initially very slow to take off but in the past two years in particular there has been a major expansion of it. Currently, €300 million has been approved for investment. Most of that is now geared towards primary healthcare services, social housing and boosting certain parts of the economy in terms of job creation in the tourism sector and so on. It is a little early to say how much of that investment has been reviewed. Once we give a permission, it takes time to get up and running, and most of the investment has taken place in the past year.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I accept that. Mr. Kirrane is not aware of any conflicts of interest in the operation of this scheme.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am aware.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Okay, that is fine.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. Kirrane explain the scheme, for the benefit of the public watching?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is permission to remain in the State.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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And to work or whatever.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Can that be renewed after the five-year period?
Mr. Michael Kirrane:
The five years is contingent on the investment having been made. There is a review after two years, after which permission may be given for a further three years. After the five years, the permission can be renewed subject to the person fulfilling the requirements of residency. In other words, the scheme is finished after five years and they would have to have basis for being resident in the State thereafter. If they were continually resident in the State during that period, they would be entitled to apply for citizenship the same way as any other non-EEA national who would fulfil the residency requirements.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. Kirrane give the name of the scheme again?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Kirrane knows about it but the public does not.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I think it is a very good programme. I have concerns about it, which is why I raised it, but I may take that up with the officials separately rather than taking up time here. I use it as an example of where we need to go regarding the future work in the Department of Justice and Equality. There is an issue of whether this should be a core issue for the Department of Justice and Equality compared with everything else it has going on.
On the accounts, I see the amount of funding for commissions of investigation, Cavan-Monaghan and O'Higgins, is €1.792 million.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes. On the breakdown of these costs, where are the costs for Mr. Justice Iarfhlaith O'Neill's review in these figures? They came in the same year.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Will the Department confirm that to me?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Will Ms McPhillips send the committee a breakdown of these costs?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I want to raise a couple of issues. I have received a letter which purports to be from a member of staff at the Department of Justice and Equality. To be fair, the detail in it, in terms of the workings of the Department, would suggest it is from a member of staff and it raises some very interesting questions. On whistleblowers, the committee has before it today a fairly detailed letter on the issue from the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Flanagan. Members of this committee continually receive letters from whistleblowers in respect of which we have to make judgment calls. In Ms McPhillips opinion, are the procedures in place in the Department of Justice and Equality, and in the agencies and organisations for which it has oversight, adequate to deal with such cases? The Department of Justice and Equality is probably one of the most sensitive in terms of protected disclosures. What is the volume of protected disclosures in the Department and in each of its agencies?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
In regard to the Department and the Irish Prison Service, which are taken as one in terms of internal audit unit, since the coming into force of the Act up to the end of April, there have been 39 potential disclosures. On investigation, not all disclosures turn out to be disclosures. One has to apply the test in the Act. Only ten of the 39 disclosures are disclosures that are relevant to either the Department or the Irish Prison Service and the remaining 29 are either not for the Department or they are not a protected disclosure in that they are not from an employee or people named under the Act. Of those ten, six have been investigated and the investigation is closed, two are ongoing and two have not yet commenced.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I thank Ms McPhillips for her response. I continually receive letters about a case involving a person who was in the Irish Prison Service in the 1980s. I do not propose to mention any names but the case has been written about extensively and there was a shooting in the prison. Does Ms McPhillips believe the Department has taken a duty of care in terms of its dealing with this case?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
The policy is in existence since 2015 and it is constantly reviewed. We consult externally on it, including with Transparency International Ireland on a number of occasions. We continue to refine it and the investigation processes that are in place. I should add that the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform recently put in place the framework of external investigators. We intend to draw from that framework, which is only in place since yesterday.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Chairman knows this case as well as I do. We have both met the person concerned. Had the process in place now been in place some time ago, we may not be discussing this issue. I believe that process needs to be reviewed again.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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While I agree with Ms McPhillips, many years have passed in regard to this case and there is a genuine grievance involved. I am asking that that be taken on board.
There are media reports on another case, in respect of which the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, has made an adjudication. This adjudication is costing the taxpayer money. Following on from this adjudication the head of the Irish Prison Service wrote to the individual apologising for the manner in which he had been treated. I can read the letter into the record if Ms McPhillips so wishes. The case is now being challenged. A letter from the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Charles Flanagan, about the process around how whistleblowers are to be dealt with was received by the Committee of Public Accounts today. The WRC has adjudicated on the case of this individual and the head of the Irish Prison Service has apologised to him for the manner in which he was treated. The Irish Prison Service is now challenging the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, and the Minister, Deputy Flanagan, has sent the letter I mentioned to this committee. This does not add up. The manner in which the Irish Prison Service is acting suggests that the letter we received today from the Minister, Deputy Flanagan, about the process in place for whistleblowers is not real.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is the belief of most people.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
The process is real. As I said, it is audited and the Department of Justice and Equality is party to Transparency International Ireland's integrity at work framework which externally validates the process, ensures that it is robust and meets best practice. The Department of Justice and Equality was the first Department into the framework. We are wholeheartedly engaged with the process. As I said, I cannot discuss an individual case.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am not asking Ms McPhillips to discuss an individual case. I find it bizarre that the WRC would adjudicate on a case and the Irish Prison Service would challenge it. This is very strange and contrary to the spirit of what has been agreed in regard to the treatment of whistleblowers.
The letter which was sent to me by a staff member states that despite the protected disclosures legislation, the person does not propose to give their name, that managers in the Department receive training from a law firm on how to take disciplinary proceedings against that, even if they did make a protected disclosure, and that the person is not willing to take that risk. Will Ms McPhillips confirm if managers in the Department of Justice and Equality received legal training on to how to deal with protected disclosures?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is as I expected. Did the option of taking legal proceedings against individuals form part of that training, even if they were in the protected disclosure process?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
With respect, Deputy, there is another process that is led by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and has been developed over time in regard to the disciplinary code for the Civil Service, in respect of which training has been rolled out from the centre across all managers in the Civil Service on how to deal with performance issues.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is very interesting. That training is necessary in its own right.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Surely there should be some crossover in that training. People should understand that training on the disciplinary process, which is necessary, and training on protected disclosures-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I would ask Ms McPhillips to allow me to finish.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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A situation arises where a manager is required to make a decision in regard to prioritisation of the two processes. Surely, to err on the side of caution, the decision should be to deal with the protected disclosures first.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The process within the Department in this regard is not clear.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps we could get clarification-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Where a person makes a protected disclosure, the legislation provides that during that process no action should be taken against him or her.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Separately, somebody else could be dealing with the same person under the disciplinary code and can threaten to take him or her to court. Is that the point the Deputy is making?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The point is that both processes could be happening but they are not joined up.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
The Deputy has not allowed me to answer the question. There is a disciplinary code and grievance procedures and all kinds of codes that are operating all of the time. The protected disclosures legislation is very specific. The protected disclosure must be taken on its own merits. The disclosure has to be investigated regardless of whatever else is happening or whatever other processes the person may be involved in, as is their right and the right of the employer as well.
They are very distinct processes and managers are trained in them. It is explained to them in the protected disclosures training. It is complex and nuanced but that is what they are paid for. They are managers and they have to balance all these rights.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are on-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I have had a lot of interruptions. I have three questions.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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To clarify, a person who has made a protected disclosure can at the same time have the Department taking legal and disciplinary action against them.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is the same person.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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To assist Deputy Kelly, we, of all committees, know there is often confusion over what qualifies as protected disclosures.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We all know that.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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We, as a committee, get an awful lot and perhaps that might have informed the author of the letter to the Deputy. I am not assuming that.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I have cut in and out a few times but we are well over time.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
To clarify, we have centralised the process to a large degree. It is overseen by our internal audit unit and the people there have developed a large degree of expertise in dealing with them for the reasons the Deputy outlines. It is a complex area and the factors in the Act have to be balanced in making a judgment on whether it constitutes a disclosure or not. Internal audit oversees that in an independent way and it reports to our audit committee on it. To clarify further, if a thing is not a protected disclosure on a technical basis, audit would still follow it through if it is a concern. If it is systemic in the organisation it will be followed through.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It leads into my question. I accept Ms McPhillips needed time to explain that. I accept the last part of what she said where it is not a protected disclosure. The Department deals with sensitive issues. Is there a process in place? It was a suggestion from the person in the Department. Is there a process in place, which has been outlined to staff, whereby staff can elevate issues? It is very similar to the Garda Commissioner's role in section 41. Is there a process internally, which has been communicated to staff, whereby staff can elevate something to Ms McPhillips or the Minister without having to go through the channels?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Is there a process in place to communicate to staff to do it?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is not a protected disclosure. These are serious issues they feel need to be brought to Ms McPhillips's attention immediately.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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With regard to-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am sorry for interrupting Ms McPhillips but I know I will be caught for time.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I have had a lot of interruptions. I will jump to another thing. I have a keen interest in the restructuring of the Department. In the restructuring of justice and home affairs, where is the policing division in the Department and where did it come from? Has it moved?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What division is it under now?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The alignment of divisions into the future and looking at separating them will be done by June.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is right, but surely-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is my point. They are on the same timelines because it would make sense.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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In fairness, I think it would be strange if the Department was not allowed the time to do it in parallel because they are interconnected.
Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:
There is a lot to be figured out in terms of assigning responsibilities, figuring out where shared services go and things like that. It needs to be thought through. The idea is to dovetail the two strands of analysis so that over the summer the thoughts of the renewal group and our own thoughts will be available and it is hoped there will be a degree of crossover between the two of those benefiting from both sets of insights.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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My last question-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy will get in again. He will have a second opportunity.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I was interrupted five times.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is true.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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My last question relates to issues that were dealt with before on the search for documentation. I am not drifting into issues dealt with by the tribunal. The Collins report said there was no meaningful explanation for why certain email accounts of Ministers and advisers were not searched. At the Committee on Justice and Equality, at which Ms McPhillips appeared on 6 December, she said she would - again I am not drifting into it - ask the tribunal if it wanted a full trawl of all emails of senior people, including private emails and phone records of Ministers, advisers and senior people in the Department. Did this happen?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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As a consequence of the meeting on 6 December, all phone records of senior people in the Department, including Ministers and advisers; all emails of Ministers, advisers, and senior people; and all private emails of senior people, Ministers and advisers were checked and trawled through.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is for clarity and it is very important. I have read the Collins report and it said it was an issue that certain people in the policing area were not checked, including the Minister and advisers. Are we saying that to this day, as a Department, mobile phone records, private emails and departmental emails, or some combination of those, have not been trawled through?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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My specific question-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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My specific question has not been answered.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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To be clear for the public, the phone records of senior people in the Department, former Ministers and advisers, and the private emails of the former Minister, former advisers and senior people were not gone through.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am not asking Ms McPhillips to do that. I am only asking for the facts.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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For the record, private email and phone records of all senior people in the Department, the Minister and advisers have not been gone through with regard to the work-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am not making any judgment on the work at all. I am just asking for facts.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I acknowledge that I interrupted the Deputy on several occasions during the course of his questioning. I came in four or five times. I am not quite sure whether Deputy Cullinane or Deputy O'Brien is next. Deputy O'Brien is listed as the speaker.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise for being late. I had another engagement. I do not know exactly what Deputy Kelly has gone through. I will focus on some of the ICT projects and the recommendations from the Comptroller and Auditor General.
The Accounting Officer has said that only in very urgent and exceptional circumstances will a project be initiated without a detailed budgetary planning where the priority of the system is deemed critical, as was the case in the Insolvency Service of Ireland. Could Ms McPhillips outline what the specific features of the modified project approval and tracking systems are? What shortcomings noted in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report do they address? Can she confirm that his recommendations in this area have been fully implemented? What criteria have been put in place to determine what constitutes a very urgent and exceptional circumstance, where the priority of the system is deemed critical? Will she also outline who, in the cases of these procedures, actually makes that assessment? Who is the person responsible for making the assessment that this is a very urgent and exceptional circumstance? Does the ICT governance group have a role in that? Could Ms McPhillips give us, if she has it, a list of the membership, the roles and the terms of reference of the ICT governance group for starters?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
Sure. I thank the Deputy. The main learning concerned business cases on budgets. The Deputy will note from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report that there was no business case or specific budget ring-fenced for the development of the ISI project. That cannot happen now, so all projects that go to the governance group must have a business case and a budget line. The governance group then monitors progress. If there were any drift in terms of expenditure going beyond the allocated budget, that would be noted by governance in the course of the development of the project.
The other major development in respect of governance is the ongoing monitoring, as I said, but also the post-implementation review. We go back and do a "lessons learned" and see whether it is achieving the things it set out in its business case that it would achieve. That is the main thing. I know the Deputy was not here earlier, but the other thing about governance is that the membership of the group has been refreshed and there are now two external members who have a great deal of expertise in their own organisations. There is a principal officer from Revenue, the former head of ICT in one of our agencies, and the Property Registration Authority which, again, no more than Revenue, has a very large ICT responsibility. We also refresh the representative of an agency from time to time. The current representative is the head of the Charities Regulator. He has stayed on the governance group post that agency moving, so, again, he brings a certain independence and is not within the reporting restrictions other than in respect of relationships in the Department.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is one particular individual responsible for determining the criteria to-----
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
The Deputy is referring to the unusual things. If, for argument's sake, there was another insolvency service in the morning that had to be established within a set period, I think what we would lose now a little is the flexibility to develop something very quickly because I think we prioritise the governance of the project as much as we would the delivery of the project. That is right and proper when we are talking about public funds. There are ten members in total on the governance group. Mr. O'Sullivan chairs it at the moment; I chaired it previously, in a different life. As I said, there are three external members and then the relevant people in the Department: a representative of a line division user, a representative of an agency, etc.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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So it is the governance group that determines whether something is urgent and exceptional.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Each project manager who is assigned has to put in a monthly statement for review.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Could Ms McPhillips give us a bit more information on the post-implementation reviews?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
Basically, the post-implementation reviews would go back to the original business case that is made to the governance group and tested as to what it has delivered. As the Deputy knows, people can make extravagant promises as to what something will achieve. What the implementation review tests is whether it has delivered on that, whether it is doing all that it is supposed to be doing and whether there were any lessons to be learned from how it was carried out. We do those regularly now.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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How many has the Department done?
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Are the reviews made public?
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Could Ms McPhillips give us a bit more information on exactly what the new features in terms of the approval and tracking systems are?
Mr. John Kennedy:
Basically, we have developed an application whereby the business cases are submitted for consideration by the governance group and then go to the technical subgroup for evaluation based on whether or not they conform to the architecture, the strategy, that kind of thing. The technical subgroup will then either make a recommendation to the overall governance group or go back to the project sponsor if there are further clarifications. The output from the technical subgroup then goes to the governance group. This is all on an automated workflow application that has been developed in the past year.
The governance group then, at the governance group meeting, either approves or queries any projects. We get the project sponsor of any major project with significant spend to come in and present their business case directly to the governance group. Once the approval has been granted, the system takes that into a list of the active projects. Then, the project sponsor has to give a monthly report on that. At the governance group then, as well as evaluating the projects that are for approval, any previous projects that are still open and active are reviewed. The project sponsor has to give us what we call a red, amber and green status. Anything that is green is fine, on schedule and within targeted budgets and so on. Anything that is flagged as amber or red gets discussed at the governance group. The reason for the status has to be explained in the report submitted by the project sponsor.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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If something in one monthly review is amber or red, we track it and there is-----
Mr. John Kennedy:
It gets highlighted and discussed by the governance group. Red is a stop, so one would not go on with that. Basically, they are brought in and we review and seek an understanding of the reasons for the status being red. We then make a decision as to where to go with the project and whether the project gets canned or changes are made to it. A lot of them are amber because of schedules and competing priorities. The timeline might be drifting but they would be still within the budget and the effort. All of this is reviewed at the governance group meeting.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I presume they are not just reviewed; I presume that if something needs investigating, it can be investigated.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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So it is not the case that if something is flagged as amber, it goes to the governance group, it is reviewed and then it goes off the agenda.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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There are no more presumptions that this is being addressed; it is followed through and there is a process to do so.
Mr. John Kennedy:
As a consequence of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report and the lessons learned from it, the governance group has expanded its role. As well as doing project approvals and post-implementation reviews, it is now also getting involved in the area of project and portfolio management.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is all I have on the ICT stuff, so I can either come back in on the Votes-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has the floor-----
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I can discuss the Votes as well. Okay. I have a couple of questions on them.
I refer to the immigration, asylum and direct provision costs. In 2016, the costs were €64 million, which was an increase on 2015. However, the State has given a commitment to take in 4,000 additional refugees, the vast majority from Syria. Is Ms McPhillips confident that the money is available to ensure that target is met for integration? Will she outline the process? How many have arrived in the country or been resettled to date? The latest figures I have relate to 2016. I do not know if the 2017 figures are available yet.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I have an up-to-date figure for resettlement. It is in the order of more than 1,000 at this stage. Mr. Kirrane might know the detail. We have more or less satisfied our obligations in respect of Greece and those people have been brought in and accommodated. The Deputy is correct that we are under a little pressure. Most of the pressure relates to procuring accommodation in the context of accommodation pressures generally. We have some issues around that and we are in the market at the moment with expressions of interest for additional accommodation. Those have been received and are being evaluated.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Are they for hotels or is the Department buying individual houses?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Department funding the purchase of houses in different locations around the country?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
No, that is a matter for local authorities. We have a multi-agency group that the Minister of State, Deputy Stanton, chairs. We met a few weeks ago on that. The chair of the CEOs of the local authorities is on the group as well as representatives of the Irish Red Cross and each Department affected such as health, education and skills, and the HSE.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Department providing funding for the purchase of houses?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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And the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The initial accommodation costs. How does the Department source the initial accommodation?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
We went to tender for that accommodation and people came forward and offered it. We entered into contracts with them. There are different types of contracts. Some of them relate to the services provided in the centres and others relate to the provision of the accommodation itself.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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It comes under subhead E5.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Subhead E5 does not provide a breakdown of the figure. It provides an estimated outturn for asylum seekers' accommodation of €119.185 million. How much of that relates to payments to landlords, refurbishment and fitting out of accommodation? Is a breakdown available?
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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If somebody owns a hotel, does all the money go to him or her? Is the Department financing the fitting out or refurbishment of accommodation as well as the provision of accommodation?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Kirrane might clarify that.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I have the breakdown of the €64 million in immigration, asylum and direct provision costs in 2016 to hand. A total of 28 centres are owned commercially and they received €51.7 million. State-owned centres cost €7.6 million.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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How many are owned by the State?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Could Ms McPhillips outline the figures again?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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How many people were accommodated in them?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Kirrane know how many people are in the 28 centres on average? The Department pays a capitation fee per person per week.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I would have thought the Department would know that.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Would approximately two thirds of refugees be in the commercial centres?
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Could the committee be furnished with follow-up information on that?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
That is no problem. There is more information on the list to which I referred. Two commercially-owned centres are self-catering and they received almost €1 million in 2016. We cover other costs such as preschool services, light, heat, telephones, transport and so forth. An amount is also set aside for miscellaneous costs.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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We pay utilities in the 28 commercially-owned centres as well but light and heat are not part of the contract.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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When additional accommodation is needed, it goes out for tender. Do the State-owned centres have to tender as well or is there no more availability within the seven centres?
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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But not for the accommodation.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Are there plans to increase the number of State-owned centres given the ratio of four commercially-owned centres to one State-owned centre?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
The difficulty for the State is getting into the market at the moment. If we tried to buy centres, we would be competing to buy a hotel or accommodation generally. The market is off-putting for us to enter into such an arrangement. The commercially-owned centres give us the capacity to flex as needed. Demand goes up and down. We were closer to 4,000 refugees at some stage last year but now are back up to 5,000. Purchasing accommodation and so forth does not give flexibility and we would have to compete on the open market.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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What type of contracts are in place for the 28 commercially-owned centres? Are they long-term or short-term leases or is that decided on a case-by-case basis?
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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What is a few years?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
A year or two. They are reviewed on a regular basis. We do not get into longer term leases for the reasons I outlined. We might not need the accommodation.
We have been working on the development and implementation of the recommendations in the McMahon report in respect of the accommodation. They place certain restrictions on the accommodation. We are trying to make it more family friendly and so forth.
However, it means one restricts one's capacity a little. Obviously, it is a positive development for the residents.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I move on to the Magdalen fund. Can the witnesses provide the committee with an up-to-date position on the 19 cases in respect of applicants with capacity issues? I think there were 25 other cases on hand at the end of 2016. Can we have the up-to-date position on them? Can the witnesses tell us how many applications have been received in total, how many have been successful and what the total pay out has been to date?
Mr. Noel Dowling:
To date, 691 awards have been made totalling €25.9 million while 106 applications have been refused. The figure relating to women who lack capacity has varied over time. In some cases, the medical certification has changed to the effect that they have capacity or else they have been made wards of court. As things stand, there are 15 cases in which the women concerned lack capacity. This brings me to the developments in relation to the Magdalen scheme. The Ombudsman issued a report last November which was critical in some respects of the operation of the scheme. He made a number of recommendations, two of which are being dealt with by a recently appointed senior counsel, Ms Mary O'Toole SC. She is looking at how best to address the issue of the 15 women who lack capacity. She is also looking at cases where the assessed duration of stay was lower than that originally claimed by an applicant with the result that the award was reduced. There are approximately 220 such cases.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Could Mr. Dowling repeat that? I did not hear him.
Mr. Noel Dowling:
We are revisiting them. There is a review of those cases being undertaken by Ms Mary O'Toole SC as well as her work on the 15 cases where there are capacity issues. There have been developments on that only this morning. Ms O'Toole has suggested that rather than to give a general recommendation on how we deal with capacity issues overall, she has suggested that she should make recommendations on each of the individual cases. I do not think we will be standing in her way in respect of that.
To stay on the issue of capacity as the Deputy has raised it, there were three routes we were looking at to deal with these cases. We have no desire to hang onto the money which is properly the property of the women concerned. The original intention was to use the assisted decision-making legislation, but there have been delays there which mean the necessary regulations and processes will not be in place until next year. As such, that approach is not really possible. The next route is the wards of court process, but it is a very significant decision in respect of any person to make him or her a ward of court. The third route is one we have been exploring with the HSE which is the possibility of using the private property accounts scheme whereby the money belonging to each woman would be held by the HSE and disbursed to her according to need. We cannot, obviously, predict what recommendation will be made by Ms O'Toole, but it seems the principal route will remain the ward of court procedure.
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act was enacted in 2015. Is that right?
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is that what is causing the delay?
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Department confident that will be done by next year?
Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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We are looking at the other two options.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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How many sections of the 2015 Act have yet to be commenced?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I ask for a note describing those sections which have not yet been commenced.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses and thank them for taking the time. I want to continue from some of the things Deputy Kelly mentioned. I start with the historic building on Wolfe Tone Street and the debacle involving €3.89 million. I appreciate that there is a report on this but it is from before my time. As we are dealing with the final figures for 2015-2016 incorporating the crystallisation of the cost to the State of €3.89 million, can the witnesses remind the committee how this all came about? Is it correct that the Probation Service needed a building for offices?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
No, it was not for offices. It was for the Bridge Project, which works with high-risk individuals and violent offenders. The project was looking for new accommodation as it was having to get out of the accommodation it was using in Parnell Street. It was there for quite some time and it was well-established.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Are these serious offenders or offenders in a particular category?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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What is the high-risk? Is it a high risk of reoffending or do they post a high risk to society or themselves?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Was it sexual offences or anything in that area?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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A new premises was needed. Did they find the premises themselves and say "this looks good for us"?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Is the board part of the Probation Service apparatus?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Bridge Project still exist?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I have no doubt. They are not public servants, however. It is a private entity that receives money from the State.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Is it a section 38 organisation?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. However, it operates on the same kind of basis. Who governs the project?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Do Department of Justice and Equality or Probation Service personnel sit on the board?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. How much does it get per annum?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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We will continue on while somebody looks. It is a third-party organisation which does excellent work and it has a board of directors. We are not sure whether there are personnel from the Department or the State on that board.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It does very good work. It picked a building and said it would work for the project. Were auctioneers involved?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that. It is just that €3.89 million is a huge amount of money. I am interested to know what level of professional expertise was engaged and whether such professionals are covered by professional indemnity insurance to see if the State has some recourse for some of that €3.89 million.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Were any legal personnel other than the Chief State Solicitor advising the board? If they were, they would have to have professional indemnity insurance. If they played a role in advising that everything was tickety-boo on planning-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The State's legal officers were in the Chief State Solicitor's office. They are exempt from professional indemnity insurance because the State indemnifies-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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We are in the area of a monumental mistake, as opposed to an error. One would do a planning search on a building in accordance with the first principles of conveyancing.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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One would try to find out at the outset if something had planning or did not. The Chairman said we needed to write to the Chief State Solicitor's office to ask what sanctions there are. We need to ask who made the error, without actually naming the person. How did this error occur and were they provided with false information by other experts for the landlord or agents, be they legal or auctioneers? If they were providing the Department with false information there may be a potential for recourse. If the mistake was in the Chief State Solicitor's office, was there sanction against the person or persons responsible for this error and what procedures have been put in place to ensure such a calamitous error will never be made again?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Was it the OPW which did this on behalf of the Department or the Department itself? We have to bring the OPW into this.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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That is not what I understood. I understood that the Bridge project sought to procure the building-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Do we need to send correspondence to the OPW as well?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, to the OPW and the Chief State's Solicitor's office. I appreciate that this is historical and that personnel are different.
Deputy Kelly quoted from an anonymous letter from somebody claiming to be a civil servant.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I will read from some of it to put it on the record and give Ms McPhillips an opportunity to say something is or is not the case and to say what has happened since. It said managers were moved in the Department every two years. Is that true?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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There is no mobility policy.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Even if it is three or four years, is it not disruptive? Are we not allowing people to get their feet under the desk and then shipping them out?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I hate the line "international best practice". Who decides that other countries are the best? It seems disruptive to me.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms McPhillips believe it is good value for money to move people around every three to four years?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Are we losing value in terms of the learning curve?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
No. I think the opposite is the case. My experience has been that a move every three, four or five years is valuable in bringing a fresh perspective to a portfolio of work and a fresh set of skills. It also means we develop people with a breadth of experience across the organisation and who can work in various different places. One of the difficulties in the recession was that it was hard to implement mobility because people were not coming into the organisation and there were not the same opportunities as there have been in recent years.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Is it correct that the Department was shedding people from 2008 onwards?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Has the Department of Justice and Equality been substantially adding numbers and expertise over the past number of years?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
In the past couple of years we have, to a certain extent, caught up. We have a lot of agencies which we have to ensure are properly resourced. One of our key priorities of the past couple of years has been the Data Protection Commissioner's office, which has gone from a relatively small office to a medium-sized operation. I have no doubt it will continue to grow as its responsibilities are added to. We have staff demands across the sector, as well as in the core Department.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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In light of events of recent years, are there guidelines for personnel on what, for example, should be reported to the Minister or the Secretary General of the Department?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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If I am a principal officer and I have information that could be useful, is a determination given to my role that states that if I come into contact with information about X or Y, the Minister should be apprised?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It is a given, rather than something that is defined.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think we are getting to the issue here.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I do not want to get into specific cases because Ms McPhillips will not be able to answer anyway. I am interested in what the procedure is for the stage at which a Minister has to be apprised. If the Department has not visited this-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am thinking about certain events over the years where somebody did not know about this or that. What guidelines are there? I know they may be difficult to verbalise but we need a procedure on it.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I know Ms McPhillips does not have that now so it would be brilliant if she could drop us a note on it.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Ms McPhillips might include that in her note.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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To be clear, Ms McPhillips will get back to the committee with a note on the items requested.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It is worth putting this anonymous letter out there so that Ms McPhillips can say what is in it is not the case, as it may well not be. It states that many of the new managers coming in are inexperienced or have little previous experience in the Civil Service and that, in fact, the psychometric testing that the Public Appointments Service now conducts for new managers now favours candidates who will not refer matters upwards on the grounds that it shows more initiative.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am flagging it because it would be a matter of concern if our psychometric testing encouraged, inadvertently, a culture of containment or people to keep an issue at one's own level.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
It would be a matter of significant concern but I have absolutely no reason to believe it is the case. My experience of the millennial generation is that they are much more questioning of things than people were in the past and less willing to accept what has always been done.
They are very well educated, they are very confident and they assert themselves in the workplace. That has been my experience of it.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It might be Ms McPhillips's experience, but as we have all seen through the media and various exposés, it seems not to be exclusively the practice. When an anonymous letter comes in like that-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Exactly. Ms McPhillips can say it is rubbish if she wants to, and that is fine-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am certainly not doing that. I am not damning a whole generation of anybody, but I believe that we have learned by our mistakes in the past by not listening and by choosing to ignore dissenting voices. Albeit this was an anonymous dissenting voice but I am merely putting it out there. If it identifies any anomalies we can address them together, or dismiss them if they are groundless.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I have no doubt there are many dissenting voices among the new recruits. The other aspect that may be of interest to the Deputy, and which he might like to take up with the Public Appointments Service, is that the PAS bases its practice on evidence based policy and best practice internationally. The service really tests that and reviews it again and again. It might be an interesting conversation to have at some point.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Public Appointments Service come under Ms McPhillips's Department?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we have the Secretary General-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. Dormer clarify if the Public Appointments Service is under the remit of Department of Public Expenditure and Reform?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Watt will attend this committee on 10 May and we can ask questions about recruitment services through the PAS.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Am I finished or am I okay for time?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is okay for the moment and can ask a last question.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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If it is my last question, I must prioritise. Reference was made to external investigators, internal protected disclosures and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Is it more appropriate to ask the representative from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform about this? Have external investigators been appointed?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I want to be specific-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Great.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Is this a panel of external investigators that is appointed and approved, and if a Department needs one it can say-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Typically, who would these be? Are they private investigator firms?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. There is a full schedule of a panel of experts that could be financial or legal-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Does it tend to be one company that has all this expertise?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps Ms McPhillips could forward on to the committee a note on that, including who won the tender so we know who they are - one big international name that specialises in this sort of work or a list of-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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-----five or six different companies offering differing ranges of expertise.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is it a framework or is it one process?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I understand this to mean that each Department can hire in line with the framework but each Department has to follow the framework set out by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Can each Department have its own arrangement or is it one for the public service?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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A public procurement process was held, so there must be some-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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-----panel approved or something. I am interested in that.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The committee will get more information on that. We shall move on and I invite Deputy Cullinane..
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Chairman. We could be interrupted by a vote but hopefully not. I should have enough time. I welcome Ms McPhillips and her team. How long has Ms McPhillips been the acting Secretary General?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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How long has Ms McPhillips been with the Department of Justice and Equality?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That is a long time.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Ms McPhillips's predecessor left prematurely. Was it early retirement?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Was it an early retirement?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am not talking about that. I am just saying that Ms McPhillips's predecessor left prematurely and his predecessor then-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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If a person has done 40 years in the service and leaves, he or she is not leaving prematurely.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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He was not due to retire - I will put it that way.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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He could have stayed on longer.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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He could have stayed on longer, as could his predecessor who, I believe, left early also. What was the reason for the departure of his predecessor?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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He went to another job in the public service. Is Ms McPhillips applying for the job?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It would not be fair to the Public Appointments Service for this committee to discuss one applicant - if Ms McPhillips is an applicant - and we do not want to know.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. We will see what happens.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The witness does not have to answer that question.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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How long has Ms McPhillips been with the Department?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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How many years is that?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I assume that Ms McPhillips has read the Toland report.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The report said that the Department operated in "a closed, secretive and silo driven culture". Was this Ms McPhillips's experience over the 29 years in the Department?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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When Ms McPhillips says it is not her experience, is it that it is not her personal experience or is it not her view that there was "a closed, secretive and silo driven culture" in the Department?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am not asking the witness about stereotypes of people or institutions. I am asking about a report-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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With respect to Ms McPhillips, the Toland report was not about her as an individual-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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-----it was about the Department. The report said that the Department operated in "a closed, secretive and silo driven culture". This was an independent report, was it not?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Ms McPhillips does not accept the report in full if she does not agree that the Department operated in "a closed, secretive and silo driven culture". Maybe the next point in the report about significant leadership and management problems-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I did not ask that. I said-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry. I said that I was not just interested in her own personal experience. I asked Ms McPhillips if that was her view of the Department, aside from her own personal experience. Ms McPhillips said it was not her experience.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That is not the question. The conclusion that Mr. Toland came to was not that things could be done better. It was quite a hard hitting report and it spoke of "a closed, secretive and silo driven culture." I am concerned that the acting Secretary General cannot agree with the findings of the independent report. If we do not accept the failures, how do we implement changes?
The next issue highlighted in the report is was significant leadership and management problems. Is this something with which Ms McPhillips can identify after 29 years working in the Department?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What about the findings of undue deference given to An Garda Síochána? Has Ms McPhillips read that?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I know that Ms McPhillips has, but that is not what I am asking. I am asking if, in her 29 years of working in the Department, Ms McPhillips found undue deference was given to An Garda Síochána by the Department at the highest level?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It says this in the report. I will read directly from it. It reads: "This oversight role demands a delicate balance between accountability and respecting the independence of An Garda Síochána. In the view of the Review Group there is a deferential relationship with An Garda Síochána with a lack of proper strategic accountability being brought to bear upon them by the Department."
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I do not want to know what has been done since 2014. I am asking if that was Ms McPhillips's experience. With respect, Ms McPhillips is the acting Secretary General. I am reading a report, which was very hard hitting and which looked at the Department of Justice and Equality going back over an awfully long time. Ms McPhillips worked in the Department for most of that time period, although not all of it. She is in a very good position, not just as someone who worked in the Department for a long time. Ms McPhillips is now the Accounting Officer appearing before the Committee of Public Accounts and I am putting this to her.
I did not dream this up. It is contained in an independent report which was carried out as a result of failings in Ms McPhillips's Department, one of which was that there was undue deference paid to senior gardaí by senior representatives of the Department. I am asking her, as the Accounting Officer for her Department, if that is a view she would share.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I will answer the Deputy's question in full. Since 2014 the Department has been implementing the recommendations made in the Toland report. An independent report from an independent body is published on our website that states the management board of the Department of Justice and Equality took the recommendations made in the Toland report extremely seriously and has been doing its best to implement them. On the individual aspects of the report, in particular the question of deference, we struggled to identify what the group was talking about. We have really tried to understand it.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I can provide an example that might help.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Was Ms McPhillips finished?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should let Ms McPhillips finish her answer and he can then come back in.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
The governance of An Garda Síochána has changed radically since 2014 and very formal arrangements have been in place since which are implemented to the letter. We have done our best to address the issue and understand it. It is not a question of seeing the word "deferential" on a page and saying we will not be deferential any more. What does that mean? We have explored the issue in detail.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am not the Accounting Officer, but I am someone who can put himself in the shoes of the review group and try to understand why it would come to the view that there was a deferential relationship. Does Ms McPhillips consider it acceptable that an Accounting Officer, one of her colleagues, would send a text message to the Garda Commissioner following the Garda Commissioner's appearance before the Committee of Public Accounts saying, "Good job"?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is that a matter before a tribunal?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It can be dealt with at the tribunal rather than here. If it has come up at the tribunal, it is not coming up here.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is a matter of public record. The entire workings of the Department might be subject to-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It has not been mentioned to me. I cannot allow the Committee of Public Accounts to be accused of trespassing on the work of a tribunal. That is my job as Chairman. It is not going to happen. We cannot go there.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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As a separate question, would it be considered deferential if a Garda Commissioner - not a particular Garda Commissioner but any Garda Commissioner - effectively was writing press releases for a Minister?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We are not. With respect, it is a general question. It is outside the scope of the tribunal because it does not relate to a particular Garda Commissioner. To put it in other words, is it current practice for the acting Garda Commissioner to write drafts of press releases for the Minister? Is that a practice used by the Department?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Does that apply to parliamentary questions?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Profound changes are required in the Department. I hope the person who will lead it will be someone who, in the first instance, will accept its failings in the past, accept all of the recommendations made in the Toland report which are very clear and serious and raise profound questions for the Department and will be in a position to drive the changes. Whoever is in the position should accept all of this and have the ability to deliver the changes.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We will see. I am a little concerned about it. What did the Collins report deal with specifically?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What did it find?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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If we leave aside the good faith aspect which is important, it also noted that there were systemic failures in how the Department categorised and filed emails. Is that correct?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It also found that the weaknesses and failures had led to non-disclosure of relevant emails. Is that correct?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am citing the report to Ms McPhillips. I am reading from the report. It showed, "Systemic failures which resulted in the non-disclosure of relevant emails".
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What changes have been made since to make sure it will not happen again?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
We are in the process of setting up a legal unit to deal with tribunals and commissions generally. It will deal with the discovery issue. What happened historically was that whatever policy division was dealing with the matter also had responsibility for establishing a tribunal, carrying out searches and all of the work associated with it. It would also have had the discovery process to deal with during that very busy period.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Ms McPhillips might send a note to the committee outlining the work that has been done and what will be done and perhaps the timeframes within which we might have some closure on some of these issues and see real, tangible changes that will make a difference.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
Since Christmas we have engaged in a search process. We brought in IT consultants and have approached the matter in a substantially different way than we have in the past. It takes account of the nexus between old-fashioned paper files and electronic records and involves making sure nothing will fall between the cracks.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Ms McPhillips will send a note on what the Department has done arising from the Collins report.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Teachta Alan Kelly asked about what had and had not been disclosed. I understand Ms McPhillips told him that emails within the Department relevant to the issues that had been sought by the commission had been sent but not private phone records or private emails. Is that the reply she gave?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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They are outside Ms McPhillips' control. Only departmental emails were sent.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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As a general remark, normally when a tribunal seeks information, it asks people to provide information within their power of procurement or possession. It includes information that may not be in one's possession but that one is in a position to obtain somewhere else. Would they have been within Ms McPhillips' power of procurement?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The reverse is also true.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Those emails were included.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What about other items in a person's private email that had nothing to do with the Department?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I want to move on to the question of direct provision. Is that Mr. Dowling's area of responsibility? Did he answer questions about it earlier?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will put the questions to Ms McPhillips. If any of her colleagues can provide any more detail, that would be great. Teachta Jonathan O'Brien asked questions about this. There are 28 centres in total. Is that correct? That is the figure that was given.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will follow on from Teachta Jonathan O'Brien's questions. There are seven State-owned facilities that could act as direct provision centres. Is it the case that there are 28 private centres because the State does not have the capacity to deliver more? Perhaps it might not have buildings available. Is that why there are 28 private centres?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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So the demand -----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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So it is about demand, and it might be easier and quicker to outsource it in order to get a centre up and running.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a service level agreement between the Department and these 28 centres?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What do these service level agreements -----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will give Ms McPhillips some of my experience of these centres, which I have raised with one of her predecessors -----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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---- and I might raise it again in order to familiarise Ms Phillips with it. I have never been barred from anything in my life but I was barred from a reception centre in Waterford.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will recall it again because it is still a sore point for me and the people I represent who asked me to go to that centre. I was asked to come in my capacity as a councillor by residents of the centre who had established a residents' association. I arrived at the time they had asked me and the centre manager told me that because I had not been given her permission, I was not allowed to be on the premises or take part in the meeting. I told her that I had no difficulty with that and asked to reschedule and I was told that there would be no rescheduling and that I was not permitted to meet with the residents.
When I asked was it a place where people lived or was it a prison, I was asked to leave and gardaí were called, although they never came. I had to meet the residents outside in the rain. I have not been granted access to the centre subsequently. Is there any provision in the service level agreements whereby if the people who live in the centres have grievances with the centre, they can interact with their public representatives. Ms Phillips or myself would have the right to form a residents' association. Can any of the officials say why it would be the case that public representatives would not be allowed to meet residents in the place where they live to discuss issues which affect them where they live?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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They are commercial premises that house people -----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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----- and that get taxpayers' money. There are real concerns that in years to come we will look back at how people living in direct provision centres may have been treated. I do not think the State will emerge smelling of roses.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, I am not finished. There should be something in the service level agreement that if the people who live in those centres want to interact with the democratically-elected people in the areas where they live, they should be able to do so.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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If Ms Phillips does not disagree then it is a matter that can be addressed because it is not in the service level agreement.
Second, at the time of the local election I posted correspondence addressed to each individual resident, all of which was binned. That was confirmed to me. Perhaps Mr. Dowling can answer how someone can post something to someone who lives in one of these reception centres, and that post not be passed on. Is that acceptable?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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My frustration is not with Ms McPhillips or Mr. Dowling, by the way.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I want to make one last point. Deputy Jonathan O'Brien said that we have more refugees coming into the system because thankfully we are taking in some of the Syrian refugees. The asylum process can be very slow. Is it the case that that is increasing the cost for direct provision and that if we put more resources into fast-tracking the applications, that would reduce the cost? If we are spending €51 million on people in reception centres - some of whom are living in these centres for years on end, out of sight, out of mind, which is not a good way to treat people - surely it would make sense to put more resources into faster processing of their claims, which would reduce the cost to the State. Would Ms McPhillips agree? Is this being examined?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
The Deputy is correct. In recent years we have enacted the International Protection Act which concertinas a whole lot of processes into a single process with a view to streamlining the system, so that there is not so many layers to the process. That is with a view to reducing the processing time. We have put significant resources into processing. Mr. Kirrane might wish to expand on this.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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A vote has been called in the Chamber so we will have to suspend.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will not get back to the meeting, so I want to reiterate that none of the questions that we put are personal to Mr. Dowling or Ms McPhillips. I want to wish Ms McPhillips well in whatever she does.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The committee is now in public session. We will resume our discussion with the Department of Justice and Equality in respect of Vote 24 and Chapter 13 of the annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. I call Deputy Catherine Connolly.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The issue of information and communications technology, ICT, has been dealt with and I will not repeat the points that have been made. The management oversight committee, or whatever name is given to the board------
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Governance. When did that come into being?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It did not extend to that because it was concerned with bigger projects.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That was internal.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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In this regard, the highest spend was on the Insolvency Service of Ireland, ISI.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes. It came to approximately €3,647,000.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The agencies which incurred the highest spends, namely, the Insolvency Service of Ireland and the Charities Regulator, are in the process of getting new information technology, IT, systems.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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They have gone to tender or are in the process of so doing.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It moved in January of this year.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Okay. In terms of the expenditure that is being accounted for here, the Comptroller and Auditor General has drawn our attention to a lack of governance and management but Ms McPhillips is saying that has been sorted out.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is fine. I listened to what was said in that regard and accept it, up to a certain point. It seems extraordinary that the agencies need a new computer service after such expenditure on them. Although I accept what Ms McPhillips set out, the troika determined a need for the urgent delivery of an insolvency service. In this case, the troika, which was supposed to bring openness and accountability, was responsible for a system being set up without openness and accountability. Does Ms McPhillips accept that?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The pressure also related to speed of delivery.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Did the pressure relating to speed of delivery come from the troika?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Departments generally follow the directions of the troika. After listening carefully to what has been said, it seems ironic that when that was done in this case, it led to a total lack of openness. Ms McPhillips does not like the way I put that.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Everything I have read on this matter, including Ms McPhillips's briefing note, leads me to conclude that it resulted from directions given by the troika. We understood that the service had to be brought in and speed was of the essence. It has now cost over €3.5 million. The Department has learned an awful lot and set up new procedures but it has cost a considerable amount of money and there is now a tender for a new computer system.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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All right.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I understand that Ms McPhillips has a role to play in terms of answers. It is a privilege to sit on this committee and, each week, to hear of the decisions that were made. What was done under the guise of saving banks and the financial system led to huge problems that cost the taxpayer a huge amount, in addition to the bank bailout. This is a perfect example of that.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Absolutely. I know that. It arose from circumstances where banks overstretched and gave out money. We are not getting into that. It arose from the crisis.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I do not really accept that with respect to the Charities Regulator as the Act came into being in 2009.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes, and perhaps that is a reflection on the Government and not the Department. It was introduced in 2009 and there was plenty of warning. We needed a Charities Regulator in response to major problems.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We did not implement it until 2014 and when we did, it was not implemented very well.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am sticking specifically with the governance.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Absolutely. I am not making a comment on this. We do not need to do that.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Would the witness accept there was no governance?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Would Ms McPhillips accept there was bad governance?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Would Ms McPhillips accept there was a problem with governance?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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All right. I will leave that as there are many more questions I want to ask. I will look at the Toland report, which was done the way a report should be carried out. It was set up by the former Minister, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, on 3 June and it reported on 11 July.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is breakneck speed. I acknowledge that it paid tribute to the Department, pointing out good elements and core strengths, which is very important. I accept those as they balance what comes afterwards. As one of my colleagues said earlier, this is quite hard-hitting. The report also indicates that time was short and there was no time to do comparatives.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I acknowledge the limitation. Notwithstanding all that, there are some very hard-hitting conclusions. Does the witness accept all those conclusions?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is okay. I am coming to the implementation. One suggestion might have saved much bother. The group offered services to make reviews on a regular basis. The witness is aware of that.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It states that "the review group is prepared to meet twice yearly, if required by the Minister, over the next two years to review progress made in implementing these recommendations". I see it is the Minister's role but was it discussed in the Department that it was a good recommendation that this review group should meet twice yearly and make a review?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Good. What was determined?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There is a specific reference to meeting twice yearly to review the progress in the implementation. Was that discussed in the Department?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Was it a good suggestion?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It was very generous but it was not taken up. I am asking the witness. Was that because it was the Minister's role? Did the Department believe it was a good suggestion and tell the Minister it was a very good idea in view of the findings and recommendations?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am specifically referring to the Toland group. The mental health strategy A Vision for Change is a good example of what I am referring to. It was brilliant ten years ago. It had an independent monitoring set-up, with two periods of three years. That was abolished because it was doing such a good job. An independent group was offering to monitor the recommendations because it took them so seriously but did the Department take them seriously?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Okay.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Okay. That is not my question.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Did the Department think the offer worthy of being taken up?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Okay. Why was that?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Absolutely. I will certainly take it up with the Minister and I have done it in the Dáil.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It does not matter who it was. It is the system we are trying to hold to account. I do not like to use the word "damning" but it was certainly very hard-hitting.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It has been quoted already. There are phrases that include a "silo culture of secrecy" and so on, notwithstanding the Department's strengths. Surely the most obvious action was to grab the offer to independently monitor the implementation if the Department was serious about this.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It was a missed opportunity and I use the phrase carefully. I will come to the Magdalen laundries matter and an opportunity lost in a moment.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I saw the reference earlier.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I will make it my business to look at it.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I saw a reference to it. What did it cost?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Will Ms McPhillips come back to clarify that?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We agreed earlier we would clarify what we were looking for. I am asking Ms McPhillips a very specific question and she has answered as best she can. It was a golden opportunity lost and that offer from the Toland group to independently monitor the implementation should have been taken up. The next matter is the recommendations. There were 18, so have all of them been implemented?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
There were in the region of 80 in total as the 18 recommendations are broken down. The programme for change took those 80 recommendations and put them into 11 work streams. There was implementation across the 11 work streams with different responsible officers and in a programme management process.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Which have not been implemented or are still in the process of being implemented.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The division.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes. The witness has told me the report will tell me what has been implemented.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Has there been any change from that report? What date is on the report?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Has there been any big improvement since or other progress?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What report is that?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What did it cost?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Were any other reports carried out following the Toland process?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Were there any arising from Toland and the recommendations? This is not a fishing exercise and I am confining myself.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Will the witness check that?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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So the cost of the reports was €80,000 and €48,708.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When will all the recommendations be done, dusted and implemented?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is going back and forth. When is D-day?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank the witness.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There is the matter of the reporting mechanism for the Garda ombudsman and the inspectorate. Has the reporting changed? It was one of the recommendations.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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They did not say that in this document. They said the reporting back was not appropriate or was not-----. I will find the exact words they used before I finish. Has the reporting mechanism changed?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I ask the witness to just stay with me for a second. On page 11 it is stated that the review group believes there is a conflict with the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission and the Garda Inspectorate reporting into the Garda division of the Department. That was November 2014 and we are now April 2018. Has that changed?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Only in respect of GSOC?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What about the Garda Inspectorate?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes. I see.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I suppose I can go all over the place as well. I understand where Ms McPhillips is coming from but these are specific recommendations which they made, set and offered to review independently. We are in 2018. One has not been implemented and is pending further reviews outside of Ms McPhillips's control while the second one is in the process of being changed.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I will tell the witness why I am going around. It is to come back-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There has been a loss of personnel in the Department for various reasons and in very public circumstances. There have been many debates in the Dáil. I am now relating this report on the Department of Justice and Equality back to the Garda. If I look at the Department's own Vote, on page 30 we have all of the tribunals. We do not have all the tribunals; I will rephrase. We have a tiny section of the tribunals that have been set up in the last 30 years. In respect of the Morris tribunal, am I correct that it is almost €70 million?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is that the final figure or is there more due?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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So that is €68.69 million - approximately €70 million. Let us just say the words slowly again: €70 million for the Morris tribunal.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Can we remind the public what the Morris tribunal was?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There were probably about 30 millionaires made after that tribunal.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Before we talk about millionaires, what was exposed was the most serious difficulties in the Garda. Whatever about barristers or solicitors making a killing, they were very serious issues.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We have spent €70 million on it.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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On that, at the end of 2016 it says €68.659 million had been expended and over the page it states that it is estimated to be about €70 million in total. Throughout 2017 and up to date in 2018, what has been paid?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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At this figure of €70 million-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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And the Department is still expecting another €1 million or so, is it?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am not trying to-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Respectfully, I have only limited time and want to stay focused.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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These figures stand, €70 million. If we do not learn something for €70 million, certainly the price is given to solicitors and barristers which I fully agree should be looked at. I accept that. If we do not learn from it - arising from that we had the Garda Síochána Act and lots of recommendations. That was in 2005, was it, the Morris tribunal?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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So the final report was in 2005.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Morris tribunal concluded its work in 2008.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Here we are, ten years later with the Department of Justice and Equality. We have a Smithwick tribunal again inquiring into the Garda. Is that right?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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And further down we have an inquiry under section 109 of the Garda Síochána Act into the conduct of a GSOC investigation. Then we have a commission of investigation in respect of Cavan-Monaghan, the O'Higgins report.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is that the total figure there?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I agree that it did not run on. It was my introduction to the Dáil and I read every bit of it. There were serious lessons and a finding that was very moderate.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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No, there was not a question. There was a statement about learning from O'Higgins, which made very moderate findings. I would have preferred if he had made stronger findings but he did not. All of these inquiries were into Garda behaviour supervised or managed by the Department of Justice and Equality because the Garda comes under that Department.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The division of labour, yes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I understand all of that. It is not that. It is about a Department learning, reading all these reports and learning about openness, accountability and change and about moving quickly. That would be the purpose of all of this. This leads me into the opportunity lost for the Magdalen laundries. On the factual side, there have been 691 awards, 106 refused, 15 are outstanding in respect of capacity and there are, I think, 25 others. Are there others to come forward? Has the closing date passed?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is open-ended, so other applicants can come forward.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Of those who came forward, 691 received awards and 106 were refused.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Presumably some of those who were refused are among the 27 complaints made to the Ombudsman. Are they?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Ms McPhillips has read the Ombudsman's report.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I have read it. It does not make for very pleasant reading. Does Ms McPhillips accept the findings of the Ombudsman's report in respect of the interpretations from the Department of Justice and Equality in respect of this scheme?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am delighted that the Government has finally seen sense and is taking a hands-on approach because that is the least we can do. However, I am asking the Department now in respect of the Ombudsman's report, which was very hard-hitting. It refers to maladministration on more than one occasion. Does Ms McPhillips accept that?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I see that and I see the Department has come back-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Department has resolved this. It was not resolved from an internal investigation or from the Department examining what it was doing with this. It was resolved for a number of reasons that had nothing to do with the Department, is that not right? It was resolved because of the Ombudsman's report and because of the Government taking a hands-on approach.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Okay. Was the Department carrying out an inquiry before the Ombudsman's report into how it was operating the scheme?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I do not accept that and I have read this. Ms McPhillips might tell me where I am wrong. Mr. Justice Quirke was very generous in the way he said the scheme should be administered. He said somebody who attended an institution should not be excluded from it. Does the witness accept that?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Then the scheme was administered in such a way that anyone who was in an institution that was listed under the redress scheme could not benefit under this scheme. Is that not the way the Department interpreted it?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is my understanding and I have read it. It was not even if someone applied and received redress but simply if she attended.
For example, Lenaboy industrial school in Galway was listed under the redress board. If someone who attended it did not make a claim to the board but had subsequently gone to the Magdalen laundry in Galway, that person would be excluded under this scheme.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Ms McPhillips does not need to be familiar with Galway. This is about the principle of the matter. I am giving a particular example in order to simplify. There was an industrial school at Lenaboy in Galway. Some of the people who resided there ended up in a Magdalen laundry. According to Mr. Justice Quirke, if someone attended an institution and got redress, she should not have her separate time spent in a Magdalen laundry excluded. The Department did not just interpret this scheme as excluding someone who had received redress, but also anyone who had been in an institution that had been listed.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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No. Will Ms McPhillips read that part again? I often make mistakes, but I have taken a particular interest in this and have not made a mistake. The scheme was interpreted as meaning even if an institution was listed. The Department interpreted it in a narrow way that excluded people. That is the basis of the Ombudsman's report. It is one of the report's primary findings. There are 27 substantial complaints, 15 of which relate to exclusions. People were excluded under the scheme because of the Department's narrow interpretation. If the Department has learned from the Toland report and the comments about secrecy and a silo mentality or culture, how could it interpret a scheme in such a narrow way that results in an Ombudsman's report that more than once refers to maladministration? Has Ms McPhillips read the report?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Good. How many times was maladministration mentioned?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I counted three. I am sorry - I will give Ms McPhillips a chance to answer. This matter is close to my heart.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I appreciate how genuine the Deputy is on this. I should point out that 691 applicants were paid under the scheme. The Department's approach was to administer the scheme in line with what had been approved by the Government. The Government re-examined that and we are considering extending the scheme.
I must apologise. My colleague who was present this morning is much more expert on this matter than I. There will be a meeting this afternoon about the scheme's future and he had to leave to attend that.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I will leave it with my next point, as this is the Committee of Public Accounts. I acknowledge that 691 applicants got awards. I acknowledge the Ombudsman's statement that some of the people whom residents dealt with were good, friendly and professional. There is a balancing exercise, but the Ombudsman also refers more than once to maladministration of the scheme. I do not accept the Department's interpretation of that. It is not learning if that is what it maintains. I suggest that Ms McPhillips read the report.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I suggest that Ms McPhillips read it again. I do not mean to be sarcastic, but the Ombudsman is setting out his problem with the way the Department handled the scheme. The report is a result of only 27 complaints, so how many people have died who applied but did not get awards? Does the Department know?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is the Department aware of how many people came forward but were not around subsequently to get an award?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Twenty-five had died.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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No. I beg Ms McPhillips's pardon. I should have made myself clear.
I have a few practical questions on our obligations under the relocation and resettlement programme. Ms McPhillips mentioned a figure of over 1,000 people under the resettlement programme.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I accept that. It is progress. Our commitment was to take in 4,000. Where are we in that regard? Was that commitment to be fulfilled by the end of this year or last year?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We must be clear. The Government committed to taking in 4,000 refugees by the end of 2017.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Please. I do not want to take up too much time.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I had thought it was 4,000. By when?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is Mr. Kirrane sure?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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How many people were we to have taken in by that date?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I will be stopped shortly, so could we get a note on that, please? It was my understanding that we were to take in 4,000 under the relocation and resettlement programme. Could we get a note on how matters stand currently?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That will save me time, as I have a few more practical questions to ask.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has referred to the resettlement programme, but what is the exact title?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There are two strands under the protection programme.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We need a report on each strand.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is "protection" the overall heading?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I have it here. I saw it earlier but I cannot find it now. "Irish refugee protection programme" is the main heading. As the Deputy said, the pledge was to bring 4,000 people to the State - 2,600 through the EU relocation mechanism, which relates to Italy and Greece, and 1,040 under the UNHCR-led refugee programme.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Syrian refugees.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That does not come to 4,000.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Rather than-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That does not add up. Could we get the figure? Not now, as I do not want to waste time on this here, but I want to be precise.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I do not know what there is, but we made a commitment of 4,000.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is the end of that.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Ms McPhillips might send us a note.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There was a vacancy in the Garda Inspectorate or GSOC. I had it marked in my documents but I have lost it.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Are there vacancies now?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Are there vacancies currently?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What is that vacancy?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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A general member of the commission.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There is one vacancy.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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For how long has the position been vacant?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank Ms McPhillips.
There was an underspend in respect of Cosc, which deals with domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. According to the Vote, there were savings across a range of activities. Given the level of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, though, how are we making savings?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Why not? Domestic and sexual violence is at crisis point.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I ask Ms McPhillips to explain. I will not describe this issue as a pet project because that would be the wrong phrase, but it is an issue I have followed up since I was elected. How can there be vacancies?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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This area must be given absolute priority.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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How many vacancies are there?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I do not want Ms McPhillips to reckon. She should revert to me with the figure on vacancies in Cosc and the reasons for the vacancies in the organisation.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Will Ms McPhillips revert to me with clarification?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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She should provide a note on vacancies in Cosc in 2016 and the updated position.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The other issue was the asylum, migration and integration fund. Savings arose because the fund did not become operational. Was that a procedural issue?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank the witness.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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As I was not present for part of the meeting, some of my questions may be repetitious. Unfortunately, I cannot do anything about that.
Deputy Connolly referred to a figure of €17.8 million for the Mahon tribunal, which has not yet concluded. We also had the Smithwick tribunal and other tribunals.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms McPhillips believe tribunals offer value for money? I am not arguing we should not have tribunals. Members of the public want answers and a way must be found to get them answers, but are tribunals the solution given the costs involved? Money is scarce and we have spent a couple of hundred million euro on inquiries. Do they provide value for money and are there easier ways of getting to the truth?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
The Deputy is absolutely right. The tribunals are very expensive. That is why, as the Deputy may recall and the Chairman will recall, the Commissions of Investigation Act was brought forward in the mid-2000s. It provided for a mechanism for inquiring into similar matters but in private and at a much lower cost. If the Deputy looks at the list, the O'Higgins commission, for example, was a commission of investigation conducted in private. One does not need the same level of legal representation etc., so the costs are not nearly as high. As we have seen, however, there are some matters that need to be aired in public and the Government can decide to use the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, which dates back to 1921. Obviously, people before a tribunal are entitled to legal representation and so forth.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I mean no disrespect to the legal profession, whose members are well trained and educated professionals. While I know a newspaper is only ink on paper, one often reads in newspapers about people who received millions in payments from the Exchequer and taxpayers. It annoys me that this kind of money is paid. One sees the costs per day for members of the legal profession and the support they have. The money involved in monumental and it is very annoying, given that the country was in recession at the time. I know the costs must be paid but the legal costs are extravagant. I do not mean any disrespect to anyone.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I would much prefer to spend money on other things but obviously there are things we need to find out about and so forth. If the Deputy looks back, most of the tribunals were in the 2000s and preceded the enactment of the commissions of investigation legislation. The tribunal in place at the moment is one of the first tribunals set up in about ten years but there are particular reasons for that and the Oireachtas approved it this time last year.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms McPhillips envisage a better system being put in place for public inquiries, which would have lower costs?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I want to move on. Nearly every speaker has referred to the rent paid for departmental premises on Wolfe Tone Street, Dublin. I thought the witness was a little blasé this morning when referring to a sum of €3.5 million, which went to waste. The attitude was dismissive. It was as if this happened and no one will be held responsible. This money would achieve a great deal in areas such as housing and medical cards, which are crying out for money. Was any individual or group held responsible for that mistake? Who owned the premises? Was it privately owned and rented? Who did the legal work on the contract and failed to examine the planning permission? Why was the problem with planning permission not found for 12 months? Why did the Department wriggle out? Why did it furnish the premises? Why was someone not monitoring the position and shouting "Stop"? Why did the costs escalate to €3.8 million before someone finally called a halt? I presume the settlement of €1.8 million was to compensate the owner of the premises, in other words, to allow the Department to buy its way out of the contract. Why did it take ten years to do all this? There are major questions about how this was left to drag on. Someone has to take responsibility.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was it internal or external legal advice?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The vendor is the person to whom the Department paid all the money and subsequently compensated.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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He was compensated for giving wrong information.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will Ms McPhillips respond to that? Did we compensate him?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Rather than giving the vendor money, should we not have taken money back from him for giving wrong information? Am I missing something?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
There is a practice in place since the 1970s in respect of contract law generally where, apparently, a solicitor acting on behalf of a purchaser insists on an opinion on compliance with planning permission from the landlord or vendor showing that the development is in substantial compliance with the planning permission. That is a practice across all contracts apparently and the view of the Comptroller and Auditor General in 2011 was that the Chief State Solicitor's Office, CSSO, was entitled to rely on that in relation to this.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Instead of giving the vendor compensation, should the taxpayer not have sought compensation on the basis of the information given originally? Someone gave clearance in respect of planning permission. Why does the taxpayer have to give the vendor more than €1 million on top of what was paid for the site. We should have taken back the money we gave the vendor.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We were right, yet we still paid money.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Department failed in court.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Department settled out of court. Is that correct?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If the Department had pursued the case further, would it not have got its money back?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am baffled but as a layperson, I may not understand the issue. A vendor and legal person stood over the contract, or whatever one wishes to call it, the Department took on the contract believing in good faith it had planning permission but subsequently found out that planning permission had not been granted, then spent money furnishing the premises and then, ten years later, settled a case out of court and gave the vendor €1.8 million in compensation. I would have expected the taxpayer to have been compensated.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Who gave the Department legal advice to settle the case?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was it in-house legal advice?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I do not understand the logic.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I do not understand it either, perhaps because I am a layperson.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General will explain in layman's terms what happened.
Mr. Andy Harkness:
The point in the Comptroller and Auditor General's conclusion was that the Department relied on the CSSO to provide legal advice in relation to the negotiations of the lease.
The comptroller went on to say that the Chief State Solicitor's office had followed an established conveyancing procedure in relying on the vendors or lessors to provide an architect's opinion of compliance with planning requirements. An opinion was provided in the required format by a registered person, and the CSSO was entitled to rely on this in accordance with recommended Law Society practice. Nevertheless, the statutory period to act on a change of use had expired, and the basis on which a change of use would be recognised by the planning authorities was specifically averted to in the correspondence between the CSSO and the legal representatives of the property owners.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Harkness is saying that when the commitment was given, there was still valid planning permission for the change of use, but by the time the building came to be occupied that had expired. I ask him to explain that. I do not get it.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I ask him to repeat that sentence about the-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Harkness saying to the committee that the Chief State Solicitor's office knew that the planning permission had expired?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Harkness said that this was referred to in correspondence.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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In other words, the witness is saying that the landlord alerted the State that planning permission had expired, and the Chief State Solicitor's office went ahead. I am confused.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I must ask about the legal advice that the Department of Justice and Equality got in the very beginning. Was it the case that the vendor himself got that legal advice, to the effect that there was planning permission, and the Department took the advice on board?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Did the Department have any legal advice of its own, in-house or external, on the whole deal?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Did the Department have advice all the way along?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Its own legal advice?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Who made the mistake?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Ms McPhillips is saying that according to its advice, the Department was forced to settle. Is the person who gave that advice not responsible? They actually told untruths. I do not want to say "lies", but falsehoods or something-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I have been around here for a while and I have heard this going on before. I just do not understand the basic picture. I do not mean all the complications. I do not understand why the State paid compensation if the State was correct. That is a simple question.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Let us hear a simple answer. It is a simple question.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Committee for Public Accounts is here to ask the question the man in the street would ask. I understand the witness might not have the answer to hand and might need to come back to me.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Why, if the State was right-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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If the State was right, surely the courts of the land would follow what is right.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I have to put it bluntly. Was the counsel advising the Department to pay up rather than expose another member of the legal profession who made a mistake?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Were any second opinions sought?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
It was tested very strongly by the Secretary General of the day, who was sceptical about it, because successive Secretaries General had taken the view that the committee is taking, that if we were not in the wrong there was no need to settle. That is why we went into the litigation in the first place. That is why we took them on. However, one has to cut one's cloth according to the advice.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We understand, but we still do not get it, and we are reasonable.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I still do not get why the State wrote that cheque.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What if this was a private business and that was done? The State is a soft touch for everyone that comes along seeking payment because it is taxpayers' money. No-one seems to mind. If Ms McPhillips does not mind me saying this, no-one seems to be concerned with taxpayers' money and no-one is responsible for it. If I was running a private company there is no way I would let this happen, because I could not afford it. How did the Department arrive at the figure of €1.8 million? I want to know this.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Did the passage of time have an impact on this at any stage? It might have had correct planning permission at one point, but did not have it later? Was that what went on?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Did the Department sue for the professional indemnity insurance of the other legal practitioners whose advice was relied upon?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think we can get there.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The lease was based on the belief that it had planning permission. All of a sudden, it was realised that one part of the planning permission had expired in 2006, if I am reading it right. Then the Department was left holding the bag. At the end of the day, the Department had to pay all the compensation. Or rather, the taxpayer had to pay it.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
-----my predecessors and I have all taken the view that this was an extraordinary set of circumstances. We could not understand, just as the committee struggles to understand, how the State was in the wrong on this. If we were entitled to rely on it, then as the Deputy says-----
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Are the Department and its officials taken for an easy target?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is no good though.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I have two more questions and then I will be finished, because I think we have thrashed this out as much as we can. I do not think we are getting satisfactory answers, but-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are very clear. We have not finished. I do not understand this. We cannot sign off-----
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I apologise, I got delayed. I wish to follow on from Deputy Aylward. I refer to the costs of the fit-out. The witness mentioned a figure of €1.068 million. What was the square footage of this unit?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I think it is very relevant in the sense that-----
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Who got the value of the fit-out?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I am getting to that.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I am concerned with this fit-out of €1.068 million. Can we have any detail on what went into the place that could possibly have cost €1.068 million? Where did that go? The Department gave in on the case, for want of a better word-----
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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-----eight years later but gave in nonetheless, and the State lost €3.89 million. I am assuming this fit-out was as normal; air conditioning, carpets, desks, whatever.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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There are a lot of partitions in €1.068 million.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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That is an awful lot of fit-out. I speak as somebody who has fitted many places out. There is a tonne of fit-out in €1.068 million. Did the Department rip the fittings out and sell them on? Normally when one takes on a lease, one returns the property in the condition in which one got it. What happened here? Did the Department clear the fittings out and put them in a skip? Was there any attempt to recoup value from the fit-out, or was there any attempt to recoup some of the money by cutting a deal with the lessor? In the real world, a deal would be struck on the fit-out. If a vacant building with bare concrete walls is bought, and air conditioning and floorboards are added, some sort of arrangement would be made whereby this would be reflected in the price. What happened with the fit-out? I am shocked by that particular figure.
Was the figure of €1 million in rent a settlement?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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So €1.8 million was a legal settlement?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The figure of €1.068 million was accounted for by the fit-out.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Moreover, the Department paid €1 million in rent.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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As such, this €1 million in rent was paid while the Department was attempting to arrange not to pay it?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Before it was realised that there was no planning permission.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It took five years.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Exactly.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It took five years.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Grand.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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From 2006 to 2011 is five years.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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How much is €1 million rent? Is the figure for six months?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is €1 million six months' rent?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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What is it then?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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So the Department of Justice and Equality paid three years' rent. If one divides €1 million by €309,000 one gets three, give or take.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The Department of Justice and Equality paid three months' rent on a building-----
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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-----before it was copped. Is that right?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Yes.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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So the objection only came in-----
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Am I correct to say a lease was signed, €1.068 million was spent fitting out the premises and three years' rent was paid before the objection?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I am trying to get the timeline.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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This morning, unless I heard it wrong-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy heard it right.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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-----the figure we were given here this morning, which I wrote down, was €1 million in rent.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Can I run this again?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Was there VAT worth €500,000 on top?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is that on the full life of the lease?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Was that sum paid to the landlord or Revenue? Where was it paid?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Was €500,000 paid to Revenue on a property?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The phrase "easy come, easy go" springs to mind.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Easy come, easy go. I do not know any company that does so. It is not normal to pay VAT for a lease upfront.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is that the rule?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, for what?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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This was not a PPP.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was this project a PPP?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Then a PPP should not be given as an example as this project was not one.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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In certain circumstances.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It can happen in a PPP circumstance.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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This is not a PPP.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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In the real world one never pays €500,000 VAT upfront-----
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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One would not.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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-----because one would be trying to sustain a business so one would not have it.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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What I have taken from what has been said, with respect, is that when it is taxpayers' money the attitude adopted is easy come, easy go and €500,000 can be paid to Revenue.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Let us move on.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We just had to pull the witnesses up on the matter.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It was my turn to question.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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With respect, Chair, I think-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are not finished discussing this topic and I will allow the Deputy back in. Deputy Aylward is in possession. I shall not let this topic go and we will resume discussing it when he finishes up in a few minutes.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Can the witnesses clarify the reference to €1 million?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy can go ahead.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The matter is very important. We were told this morning that €1 million was paid in rent but now we have been told the sum paid was €500,000 in rent, give or take, and €500,000 in VAT.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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And VAT on rent.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Yes.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Aylward, please. Deputy O'Connell will get another opportunity to comment.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I shall finish on this matter, we have-----
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Grand.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was furniture and desks involved in the refit?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We did not gain anything. This vendor had this property that was not occupied for five or ten years. Was anyone in it at all?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was anybody in it at all?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was the property ever used?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The property was never used.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was the property every used? Was it idle for the whole time?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Did the Department of Justice and Equality occupy the premises for two or three years?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Department of Justice and Equality paid rent-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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-----because it worked on refurbishing the building.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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How many years was rent paid?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Was rent paid for 18 months while the property was being kitted out?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That means the Department of Justice and Equality was in possession of the premises.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We understand that.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Department of Justice and Equality eventually paid it by way of settlement of the €1.8 million-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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-----because the Department stopped paying it.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Department of Justice and Equality stopped paying it but then it paid €1.8 million in compensation.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Department of Justice and Equality stopped paid at the end but we have not reached that matter yet.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is not stopping paying rent. The Department of Justice and Equality paid €1.8 million in compensation.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I know we are crossing over. The Department of Justice and Equality suspended paying the rent for a period-----
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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----and it went back and repaid the rent. Is that correct?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Can I ask one question?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Was it the owner of the building that the Department of Justice and Equality dealt with or was it somebody who had leased the property or an intermediary? Did the Department of Justice and Equality deal with the owner of the building?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
I would say there was an intermediary because I think it was in NAMA at one point.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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This matter is getting worse.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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This matter is getting worse. A minute ago PPPs were mentioned and now we've heard about NAMA.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It was not a PPP project.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No but PPPs were mentioned.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
Just to say about the ceasing of the paying of rent, and I accept what the Deputy has said about what happened subsequently, the purpose of that was we were going to litigate to extract the State's entitlement out of it. We felt that if we kept paying the rent we might not have been able to ever recover that regardless of what way the case went.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Maybe on that argument, the Department of Justice and Equality ended up being-----
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I have one last question.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Has the Department of Justice and Equality learned anything from this matter? Can such a situation reoccur tomorrow morning or next week? Has system been put in place to prevent this situation from happening again where €3.5 million has gone down the drawn?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What measures has the Department of Justice and Equality put in place to counteract this situation? Can the acting Secretary General guarantee that such a debacle will not happen again next week, next month or in two months' when another villa must be rented?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is that the lesson that has been learned?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Department of Justice and Equality get its own opinion?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Department of Justice and Equality trusted a legal adviser but he or she let the Department down and no-one had to pay anything for the cost of same.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I shall move on. I want to discuss accommodation for asylum seekers, which Deputy Connolly spoke about. A sum of €65 million in 2016, which is an increase of €7 million on the 2015 figure. As many as 4,000 have sought refuge in Ireland and 519 refugees have arrived in Ireland, and 320 persons under another heading. Can I have the most up to date figures? How has the programme that we have stared progressed? Are we up to date? Have more people to be brought here? Have we met the quotas? Are we finished when we reach 4,000 refugees or do we keep going?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is that more than under all of the programmes?
Mr. Michael Kirrane:
Yes. Under the relocation strand, there is a 1,022 and under resettlement there is 792, to date. There are 41 unaccompanied minors from Calais. That brings the total to 1,850.
Just to say in relation to the original EU relocation figures were, the two EU legal instruments, which mandatory allocated out numbers for each member state, totalled 2,622. That figure was based on a total number of 160,000 people to be relocated across Europe. The reality was that those numbers did not materialise and the overall numbers amounted to about 37,000. We ended up taking 1,022 of those numbers. It is recognised and acknowledged by the EU Commission that Ireland has taken more than its proportion of what it would be obliged to take under the original key of distribution.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Has this country taken more people?
Mr. Michael Kirrane:
We have taken more, under relocation, based on the lower figure of 37,000 in total that was available for redistribution across Europe. Under resettlement, we have taken 790 to date. The intention is to take 1,985, under pledges for this year and for next year. We intend to take an additional 530 under the family unification and humanitarian programme, which is an additional programme. All of this is designed to meet our overall allocation of 4,000. We have had to redistribute where we are taking those numbers from with what has happened in Europe but the intention and the commitment of Government is still to take those 4,000.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The overriding factor is that we have to fulfil our quote. If we are given a quota then we have to take so many and that is it. Once we have that number taken in here, are we clear? Will we have done our bit for the refugees?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will we be asked to take another 4,000? If the European Union sees that there are good, well behaved, obliging people, will it ask the Department to take another 4,000?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is policy. Has accommodation been procured? If there are additional requirements, how is it found? I know that it is spread throughout the country and we have done our bit in Carlow and Kilkenny. I am from Kilkenny and we have allocated houses to Syrian families, in particular. Do we have accommodation for them? Who paid for it? Was it the Department of Justice and Equality or the local authorities? From where does the money come for the houses given out? Who pays the rent? I presume the houses are rented from landlords. Who pays the fit-out and maintenance costs? I want to know who pays for what when refugees are taken in.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Whose responsibility is it? Is it the responsibility of the local authorities?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
No, it is us. That is the initial phase of providing accommodation when refugees come to the country. They are accommodated together mainly in hotels which we procure. Within a relatively short time, approximately six months, the aim is to disperse them into homes and houses. That is the responsibility of the local authority. I referred to a multi-agency group chaired by the Minister of State in the Department through which we co-ordinate, but essentially it is the responsibility of the local authorities to provide the accommodation.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does any rent have to be paid by the refugees? I suppose they do not have an income. Are they allowed to work? Some are and some are not.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If they do find some employment, do they have to pay something back in rent or make some reimbursement to the State?
Mr. Michael Kirrane:
The cases who come in under the heading of relocation are considered for asylum within about six weeks and granted refugee status. Those who come in under the heading of resettlement automatically have refugee status on arrival. They all have what is known as stamp 4 permission to be in the State which means that they are entitled to work and have the same access to services as every other person in the State. Therefore, the same rules are applied by the local authorities to their income as apply to other people.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Therefore, if they have an income, they pay accordingly.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I do not wish to drag out the questioning, but did Kilkenny County Council receive compensation for the houses that were provided, either to buy or rent them? Who paid? Was it the council through the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government or is a special fund given to the council from a central fund to buy such houses? I am speaking about Kilkenny because that is where I am from, but the same applies to other places throughout the country.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
Not to buy the houses. I am not aware of what arrangements are in place to fund local authorities. It is a matter for the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government. We have funding in place to support councils in some of the work they do. It is relatively small, but there is a scheme in place to give some nominal funds to county councils.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The reason I am asking is that I was told that Kilkenny County Council had to cover the costs from its own funding to provide the houses for refugees that have been made available to date. I did not send any letter or make an inquiry. At this stage approximately 12 families have been housed in Kilkenny. My understanding is the cost falls on the local authority, rather than a central fund. It is wrong that we are not receiving any compensation. There are rules coming from the Government and there is no conversation. We have to carry the can. When I say "we" I mean Kilkenny County Council.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We have raised this issue before and are not clear on it. We will write to the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government to explain the position. It looks to me as if it was probably done through one of the housing agencies that deals with local authorities.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In our case, it is the local authority.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The funding to meet the capital cost of the house did not come from the Department of Justice and Equality. We can only presume it came from the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government. There are other costs attached. We will write to the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government for an explanation of how the funding scheme operates on a local authority basis.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, Ms McPhillips can forward it.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I think the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government probably comes up with the money. We will write to it to seek information.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking the question because of something I heard. I will ask a final question. Can refugees apply for Irish citizenship after they have been here for seven years?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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They can apply for Irish citizenship.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I just to ask about the payroll. I have spent a long time on two issues and have a few other issues to raise, but I will finish on this one and can come back in.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is okay.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There were overpayments of €550,000 to 150 employees. What are the circumstances surrounding an overpayment? Why is anyone overpaid? I am not overpaid for anything I do. I am glad to be paid what I earn, but I am not overpaid. I have no come-back. I get what I get, from which tax and everything else are taken out. Why is there overpayment in the Department?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I see that there are 73 such employees.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
It arises where employees exceed the sick leave thresholds; where they have failed to provide certificates for sick leave; where they might take unplanned sick leave at short notice or where there is late notification of exit cases by an employer or his or her manager. Some mistakes can occur in the PeoplePoint payroll process also. I know that the committee has heard from the National Shared Services Office, NSSO, in that regard. There can be some delays in instructions being issued or a delay in the Payroll Shared Service Centre, PSSC, in implementing the instructions. They are the circumstances in which the overpayments arise.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a recovery plan to get back the money? If someone is overpaid by €20,000 or €30,000, in two years a person will not be able to afford to pay back all of the money at once. Is there an option to pay back the money over a specified period?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is interest applied?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Department modernising its system in order that it will not happen?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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My last question relates to claims made by members of the public. I do not understand this. Total legal costs for claims made by members of the public amounted to €6.1956 million, while awards amounted to €100,000. How did legal costs come to €6.1956 million and the awards to €100,000 in compensation? That sounds extravagant on a like-for-like basis. How could it cost almost €7 million in legal costs to pay out less than €1 million in compensation? That is jumping off the page at me as being totally unequal.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It cost €7 million to pay €100,000.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
If I could start with the figure of €5.5 million. Roughly €5 million relates to immigration cases. There is a large number of judicial reviews at any one time of immigration cases. It relates to the costs of the appellant, arising either from an order of the court or a settlement of the case following legal advice.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is it value for money? What system is in place that it could cost €7 million to pay out €100,000 in compensation?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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They are overall costs. Is the cost carried by the State? Does it relate to free legal aid?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The State has to pay for those costs. Is that correct?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Ms McPhillips did not show any figures relating to where the State won either. I only see the figures that are costing us money, which is what we are here to investigate.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I have a brief question on the previous issue. When we are writing letters and we want further clarification, we need to know what we are asking. I want to be sure that I am not misinterpreting. Ms McPhillips said the lease was signed on 30 September 2011. When was the lease initiated? When did the Department take over the lease?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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In 2008 a lease was taken over. Do we know or have we access to who the leaseholder was?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Yes. Who got the money?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I think we need to know who the leaseholder was, if it was anything to do with NAMA and if the State had any involvement. It is relevant, especially if we are losing €3.89 million and playing around with money ourselves – that is what I am getting at. I cannot understand it. Things were terminated on 30 September 2011. Am I right? It sounds like three years elapsed from 2008 to 2011.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
What happened in the interim was that in March 2010, Dublin City Council issued a warning letter to the project informing it that the change of uses of planning permission obtained by the landlords had expired in January 2006 and consequently no valid planning permission was in place. The premises could not be occupied on that basis.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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At that point was the fit-out complete? The cost was heading towards €1.1 million. A two-year period is a long time to be fitting out any place. Had the fit-out started in March 2010? Was the money gone?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It is a pity it was not a little more precarious.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Due to the recession we saved a few pounds. Is that what Ms McPhillips is saying?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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There was a delay. When did the Department start spending the €1.068 million?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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In January 2010, the Department started the fit-out. In March 2010, two months later, the Department got notification from Dublin City Council to the effect that the change of use had expired, but the Department kept going with the €1.068 million fit-out. Is that correct?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The Department spent €1.068 million in 60 days. Is that correct?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It is not physically possible unless the Department was wall-papering the premises in gold. That is what the committee needs, because something is wrong here. How could a fit-out cost this much money? How can the officials sit here and tell me that today? I am not blaming Ms McPhillips personally but logic and common sense must come into it. The Oireachtas is not spending that amount here in 60 days doing up this building. Does Ms McPhillips know what I mean? There is something wrong with the timeline.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
The only information I have, to be honest, relates to the planning and the halting. I do not have any detail on the fit-out but I will see if I can get it for the Deputy. Committee members will understand that it was a long time ago at this stage and it was not a Department-occupied office. It was being done by a project at arms length.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Ms McPhillips referred to a long time ago.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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In the real world the company would not have recovered from this and would have gone under.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It would not be a long time ago in the real world.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Was it poor timing on behalf of the State if you say it was not a Department office?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It was not the Probation Service.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Department was the tenant. Is that right?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Department was the tenant. Was it not for some project? You mentioned a project.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was the re-fitting work done by a sub-contractor?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The contractor did €1.1 million worth of work in two months. Is that correct?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is it possible that the contract was for €1.1 million but that only a fraction of the work had started and the contractor wanted €1.1 million before doing the rest of it?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is the question.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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That is the question I am asking. I am asking whether a contract was signed with a fit-out company for €1.1 million. Did the contractor walk in the door and simply put down a couple of floorboards? Did the State have to stump up the money because someone had signed the lease?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The whole thing is vague.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It is altogether vague. I was working out the figures, although I have lost the piece of paper. Anyway, VAT was charged at 23%. I cannot understand how the VAT was paid upfront. I cannot understand how a claim could not be made back to the Revenue if VAT was paid in error on a lease deemed invalid. Was any attempt made to try to recoup that money from the Revenue?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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We could argue that. The whole conversation we have had around this question from this morning up to now is rather shocking, especially the things we have discovered and the things that we have had to drag out.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It is frustrating given there is such a vast sum of money at stake. Then, we hear the lease was in the name of the Minister and that there was a 60 day fit-out. None of it makes sense. The committee needs to know who the leaseholder was and who was acting on behalf of the leaseholder.
I gather Ms McPhillips said this morning that the Chief State Solicitor carried out due diligence. It seems like the most basic thing someone would check is whether there was valid planning permission.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, can Ms McPhillips expand on that? What practice?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The practice of the Chief State Solicitor simply accepting-----
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The practice of the Chief State Solicitor accepting-----
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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That is not the case.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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She is referring to assurance from another solicitor.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Why would any person pay a solicitor if the solicitor was simply going to take the word of another party? Why would anyone do that? It would be pointless.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
As I said, this is from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report in 2011. It quotes an established practice by the Law Society of Ireland that has been in place since the 1970s to the effect that a solicitor acting on behalf of a purchaser or lessee insists on an opinion and compliance with planning permission from an architect or agent engaged by a landlord vendor showing that the development of the property is in substantial compliance with planning permission.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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If it is based on that, then why are we not suing the legal people on the other side?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Did the Department pay the legal fees for the other side?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms McPhillips think this was a scam?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Was there any attempt to get retention on what the Department had or was dealt?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
What we tried to do was identify another use for the premises. Committee members will understand that through those years we were not in expansion mode. We were not setting up agencies left, right and centre. We ran the rule over the premises for anything that needed accommodation. It was top of our list for something suitable but that did not come to fruition. If we had had a purpose for it we would certainly have sought planning permission for it.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The Department had no purpose for that building under the planning arrangements. Is that correct?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Given the planning in place at the time the Department had no use for it. Did the Department attempt to get retention for the use intended by the Department?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Did the Department try to get retention for that project? When the Department attempted to fit it out, or whatever we are going to find out, for this purpose and discovered the planning was not valid, did the Department go for retention?
When the Department discovered that the development was not valid, did it apply for retention permission?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Were those boys ever pulled up for giving false information about planning permission to the Department? It was false information.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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At this stage we will draw the discussion on this item to a conclusion, although this is far from over.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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We are ending the discussion on this one particular issue.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but I will allow Deputy O'Connell to come in on other issues. On this issue, it is very important to read what is in front of us today, namely, the appropriation accounts for Vote 24, Department of Justice and Equality. The Comptroller and Auditor General in his report of 26 September 2017 on this matter heads the paragraph on page 7 as: "Non-effective Expenditure". The figure under that heading is €3.89 million. Non-effective expenditure in lay man's terms is a waste of taxpayer's money. It is the polite way of saying a waste of taxpayer's money. Effectively the Comptroller and Auditor General's report contains a paragraph which says that €3.89 million of taxpayer's money was wasted. It is one of the most egregious wastes of taxpayer's money that this committee has seen in that there was no value for the taxpayer when it was all over. Despite the reports that were done in 2011, this committee is far less satisfied on this topic now than at any other stage. We want a complete report on this from the Department. This has nothing to do with Ms McPhillips personally because she was not in her current position at the relevant time. However, we will want to hear-----
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We are more puzzled now.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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One of these days we will want Ms McPhillips to appear before us with a full team, including representatives from the State Solicitor's Office, the Office of Public Works, the professional architects who were advising the OPW and any other relevant parties to discuss this €3.89 million waste of taxpayer's money. That is what the Comptroller and Auditor General called it and it is very rare for him to write a paragraph like that in one of his reports. This is a saga. Ms McPhillips has said that the Department has closed the book on it but from the public's point of view, we are only getting to discuss the final outcome now. Up until now, it was an ongoing situation. We now have a final outcome which looks like a complete disaster. In truth, none of us can understand the logic of what happened. If we were so right, how did we end up paying out that money? None of us understands that.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Department of Justice and Equality has a big job to do to convince the public, through this committee, of the logic of what happened because the Comptroller and Auditor General has said in lay man's English that it is a waste of taxpayer's money. The most difficult issue is the fact that the Department is struggling to explain this issue here today-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That suggests to me that if senior personnel in the Department - I am not being personal here - are struggling to understand or explain the details of this, then lessons will not be learned. The Department cannot learn any lessons if it does not know exactly what went wrong. Ms McPhillips has said that she does not know the details-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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When the Department comes back-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We understand that. People buy and sell sites all the time and one solicitor gets documentation from the other and ticks the boxes when there is no dispute regarding the property or issues regarding rights of way or way leave. There are standard questionnaires upon which we thought people could rely. In any event, Ms McPhillips understands the point we are making. We want a detailed, comprehensive note explaining the logic behind it all so that we can try to understand what happened. We now accept that this money has been wasted.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We also need information about the Revenue, in terms of-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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-----how that figure was arrived at and how it was paid over so quickly. As Deputy O'Connell said, we also want to know how the €1.06 million was spent. There are lots of questions here and we would be remiss in our duty if we did not come back to this issue.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
In terms of the settlement, my predecessor was reluctant to settle but was adamant that the settlement could not be done in such a way as to mean that we could not account for it to this committee. He wanted to account fully for this and was very concerned about that, as was his predecessor.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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There is probably good information on the files.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How did it take until 2018 for this to be highlighted?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The matter was fully concluded in 2016 but we are only looking at the 2016 accounts now.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It took that length of time-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it was ongoing and is only now being brought to a conclusion. Does Deputy O'Connell have further questions?
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I would like information on the square footage and the relative rent at the time. One could give property away at that time to rent-----
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Maybe not in 2008 but still, it is relevant.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I want to know what we were paying relative to the market rate - the usual details really.
Deputy Aylward made reference to 73 cases of overpayment and Ms McPhillips said that the Department has made "some progress" on this. Can Ms McPhillips put a figure on that progress?
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
The committee had representatives of the National Shared Services Office, NSSO, before it recently. It has put a lot of effort into addressing overpayments. Part of the issue relates to how the PeoplePoint part of the NSSO, which is the HR side, talks electronically to the payroll side and how quickly those electronic messages go through. That is one of the things about which Departments have been talking to the NSSO since its establishment. Progress has been made and resources within the NSSO have been dedicated to resolving it.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Again, a private business would not be long about getting its electronic messages to move fast if it was going to go under because of overpayments.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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That is fine; we will take it up with the NSSO.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The NSSO handles the payroll centrally for all Government Departments. I ask Ms McPhillips to contact the NSSO and ask for an update on the situation in her Department.
Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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We want to know the proportions. If 73 were overpaid, what percentage of the Department's workforce does that represent and what improvements have been made?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I have a few other questions. Asylum seeker accommodation is referenced on page 24 of the report and the amount paid for same was €64 million. Ms McPhillips told us earlier that there are about 5,300 asylum seekers in the system, with approximately 80% in private accommodation. That would mean that roughly 4,220 asylum seekers are in private accommodation. Therefore, the per annum payment for each person is approximately €12,000, or €230 per week. When the Department is negotiating contracts with the 28 private providers in various locations, does it have a rule of thumb or does the rate per person change depending on the location? Would the rates vary significantly between Dublin, Cork, Portlaoise and Donegal, for example?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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On the basis of the figures provided it looks as if €12,000 is the approximate annual cost per person. Would that be a reasonable estimate?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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How much spending money, for want of a better term, does each person get? Is it €19.20 per week?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is in addition to the accommodation costs. Is that correct?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is it not paid by the Department of Justice and Equality?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. We know asylum seekers need that allowance and there is no argument about that. I was just wondering about the figures. The €64 million is strictly for the accommodation.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We like to give people an understanding of the figures. A figure of €64 million does not really mean anything but that works out at approximately €12,000 per person per annum or €230 per week, which is roughly in line with the State pension. Does Mr. Kirrane wish to make a point?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Some €30 multiplied by seven is €210 and I said approximately €230, so I was very close. That is approximately where we are. That is a kind of verification. The other thing, as Deputy Aylward mentioned, is that on page 33 of the accounts, legal fees are mentioned. I am conscious that people ask about the length of stay. We have all had asylum centres in our constituency and still have. I have never seen a case that they can go for legal challenge yet.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is their right. Page 33 says that €5 million of the €7 million for legal costs, 72%, relates to the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service. For all the people who go to all the solicitors and take all the cases, the taxpayer tends to cover that cost as a result when they-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What does that mean?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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And the legal costs if they challenge-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Many of the people in the centres arrive here and survive on €21 per week. They take these legal challenges, and according to the witnesses, they would obviously lose in some cases, for which the State does not pay their costs. Where do these people get the money to pay private solicitors?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Do they?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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To conclude on this, the witnesses can send us a detailed information note regarding the locations and number. They probably supply it through parliamentary questions all the time. They can include the number of locations and how many are in each, to complete our file, because we just talk globally.
On a different topic for the Department of Justice and Equality, people all over rural Ireland are trying to roll out closed-circuit television, CCTV, through community alert and various schemes.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is it the Garda Vote? It is not the Department's Vote at all. I will reserve that.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I will hold it over until the next meeting. The next thing I want to ask the witnesses about is the various agencies under the Department. We got a briefing note and there is a list of dozens of agencies under the remit of the Department. Has the Department a service level agreement with every one of these agencies?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I am not asking any of these but am looking at-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Whether it is the Mental Health (Criminal Law) Review Board, the Parole Board, the Prison Service, Legal Aid Board, the Probation Service or whatever, there is the equivalent of a service level agreement.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I assume, because the Department is giving them substantial taxpayers' money, that they are required to produce their annual financial statements within a period of three months at the year end.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms McPhillips mean to have them published?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Many public bodies have a requirement to submit their accounts for audit within a three-month period. That is not about laying them before the Oireachtas.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is the Department. I am talking about these agencies.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The witnesses can see where I am going with this.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What I want next week is for the Department to verify that all the agencies under its remit have submitted their accounts within three months. If the accounts are for the end of year in December, which they probably all are, the Office of the Auditor and Comptroller General should have all their accounts. The Committee of Public Accounts has written directly to each of the agencies audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General, not just-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are not talking about that at all-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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-----just about the submission for audit. We know the audit process will take months, but in our job as the Committee of Public Accounts, the first task is for people to submit accounts. If they do not submit accounts, we have nothing to talk to them about. The first step of that is them meeting their statutory requirement. I, as Chairman, wrote before Christmas to every body and organisation audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General to remind them of this. In a week or two, we will review that list, and any major agency that has not submitted its account for audit will be in here with the chairman of the board and chief executive. We are on that mission separately so we want confirmation that that is done in all cases.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I want to ask the witnesses about one or two small items on various agencies. I am looking at page 19. What is compensation for personal injuries criminally inflicted?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I go to page 30 of the accounts and there is a permanent commission, the Criminal Injuries Compensation Tribunal. Is that the same thing?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I think I saw a note that the amount paid by that board-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The note reads, "The saving arose mainly due to a lower number of awards than expected partly due to vacancies in the membership of the Tribunal for a period during 2016." It is outrageous that people cannot get compensation just because a position has not been filled on the tribunal. I have had parliamentary questions on this. The witnesses have probably seen that over a period. There are vacancies and people are asking when their cases can be dealt with.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is still a bit slow.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Ms McPhillips has answered that question. I want to address two other agencies.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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There was an underspend for the Coroner Service. The note mentions section 60 of the Coroners Act.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is page 21. Explain that to the ordinary people. What does that mean? It is page 21 in the bottom paragraph.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What does "Implementation of Section 60 of the Coroners Act 1962 as amended" having "not yet been implemented" mean? That is a reason given.
Ms Oonagh McPhillips:
It is about provision of legal services to a family member. There was a provision in the amendment Act of 2012 which amended the Coroners Act 1962 which provided for legal aid. There was provision for that and it took longer than anticipated to implement that but it has since been implemented.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Are core services in the Department's Vote or someone else's?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Ms McPhillips is off the hook. I will hold that over for somebody else. I thank the witnesses for their time, patience, effort and helpfulness to the committee. There are a number of items to return to.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are very confused about the issue mentioned, so start assembling a group that can come to explain, through us, to the people what happened to that €3.8 million because we do not get it. We do not have it in our heads.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What happened? I thank Ms McPhillips for her first appearance here as Accounting Officer, and the officials from the Departments of Justice and Equality, and Public Expenditure and Reform, and the staff from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. We will adjourn until 9 a.m. next Thursday when we will deal with matters in the Department of the Taoiseach relating to the strategic communications unit and, in the second session, Vote 29 - Communications, Climate Action and Environment. Raidió Teilifís Éireann will also be here to deal with broadcasting licences and fees and matters arising.