Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for the late start. We had expected to meet with the witnesses this morning. I am sorry that we had to defer because of other business and, subsequently, voting in the Dáil went on for over two hours, which delayed us further. We appreciate the witnesses taking the time and having the patience to wait with us.

From Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, I welcome Mr. Fred McBride, chief executive officer and his colleague, Ms Helena Hanna, the acting director of finance, and Mr. Gerard Hughes from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. The Comptroller and Auditor General is accompanied by Mr. John Crean.

I remind members, witnesses and those in the Public Gallery that all mobile phones should be switched off. That means they should be placed in on aeroplane mode, not silent, as failure to do so will cause interference with the recording of proceedings.

I advise witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of that evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I invite the Comptroller and Auditor General to make an opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The Child and Family Agency, also known as Tusla, was established in 2014. Its primary functions include supporting the development, welfare and protection of children, offering care and protection for children whose parents are unable to do so, and maintaining and developing the services needed in order to deliver supports to children and families. Prior to 2014, many of the agency’s functions were undertaken by the Health Service Executive. Staff, assets and systems were transferred from the HSE to the agency on its establishment.

The agency's financial statements for 2016 record total income of €682 million, almost all of which comes from Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs. This includes €16 million provided to support the agency's capital investment. The agency's expenditure in 2016 was €680 million. Some 35% of expenditure related to staff costs. The agency employed approximately 3,600 whole-time equivalent staff at the end of 2016.

The agency incurred expenditure of €118 million on foster care and aftercare allowances in 2016, and a further €96 million on independent placement provision, including residential care. Expenditure in 2016 of €144 million was in respect of grants to almost 1,000 organisations delivering services under three key programmes: €98 million on child welfare and protection; €25 million on the school completion programme; and €21 million on family and community support measures.

I issued a clear audit opinion in respect of the agency's financial statements for 2016, which were certified on 23 June 2017. However, the audit report drew attention to the statement on internal control in which the board acknowledges that there had been inadequate monitoring and oversight of grants paid to outside agencies. The control weaknesses identified included delays in the signing of some service level agreements — audit sampling found that some agreements for the calendar year 2016 were signed as late as quarter 3 of 2016; inconsistencies in the agency's ongoing monitoring of grant-funded agencies, which is carried out through monitoring meetings and receipt of financial reports and staffing returns from grant-funded agencies; and consistent review of the financial statements, with some cases identified where no evidence was available to demonstrate that required financial statements had been received or reviewed.

In 2016, as in previous years, non-compliance with procurement rules continued to be an issue for the agency. When it was established, the agency took over a number of contracts which had originally been put in place by the HSE. The HSE continues to provide support in defining the agency's procurement needs and in managing its procurement processes. The agency noted that it will take a sustained focus over a number of years to achieve high levels of adherence to public procurement rules.

The agency's statement on internal control outlines steps being taken to resolve the issues. The chief executive will be able to provide the committee with an update on progress in this regard.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy. I now ask Mr. McBride to make his opening statement.

Mr. Fred McBride:

I thank the committee for giving us the opportunity to address it today to discuss Tusla's annual financial statements for 2016. As mentioned, I am accompanied today by my colleagues, Ms Helena Hanna and Mr. Gerard Hughes from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. Mr. Alan Breen is my head of communications and Mr. Peter O'Brien is the senior accountant.

I will not go over all the history of the agency. Most committee members will be familiar with it. Tusla was set up in 2014. It is just slightly over three and a half years old, and it brought together a number of services from the HSE, the National Educational Welfare Board and the Family Support Agency as well as some services related to domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. Suffice to say, the establishment of the agency was one of the largest and most ambitious programmes of reform undertaken by Government and the most comprehensive reform of child protection, early intervention and family support services ever undertaken in the country. We have 4,000 staff and in 2018 we will have an operational budget somewhat in excess of €700 million. The 2016 outturn for Tusla was a surplus of €626,000 for pay and non-pay, and a capital surplus of €1.88 million, less than 0.1% of our total budget.

We have been undertaking a very ambitious and far-reaching transformation programme affecting structure, processes, practices, policy, methodology and, of course, organisational culture. We are leading an organisation whose staff are trying to deliver supportive, co-ordinated and evidence informed services to positive outcomes for children, young people, families and communities. Our staff have an appetite for change. As I go round the country, the level of enthusiasm and commitment for change is very encouraging. They have embraced that positive approach and that is being captured as we move into the next three-year corporate plan, which starts next year.

I would say, and my colleague from the Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned it, that when we were set up, most of our corporate functions were very heavily dependent on the HSE through a memorandum of understanding, including some of the areas the Comptroller and Auditor General have drawn to our attention around procurement and the management of grants. It is our intention to become as fully self-sufficient and independent from the HSE as is possible while at the same time still taking account of the Government's shared services agenda.

We have embarked on this transformation programme. We have had additional investment over the past two to three years and I would say that we have unapologetically used most of that investment for front-line development to try to make our front-line services more robust and responsive. We have an opportunity to develop our capacity in some of these corporate areas, especially finance, HR, estates, ICT and areas around freedom of information, health and safety, data protection, etc., because we cannot continue to be dependent on the HSE on an ongoing basis. We need to be independent and we have begun to invest in these corporate functions as well as, not instead of, I hasten to add, continuing to invest in our front line with the advent of mandatory reporting.

I have mentioned in the statement that one such programme is our child protection and welfare strategy which is underpinned by a national practice approach called Signs of Safety. We have been giving political parties a briefing on these as we move forward. They are fundamentally aligned to the principles of Children First, which, as the committee will be aware, is due to be commenced on 11 December. Children and families will very much be at the centre of our assessment and decision-making and the approach will be strengths based, evidence based and outcomes focused.

On some headlined progress to date, as we have highlighted in our annual report, we have managed since establishment to achieve a 38% reduction in cases awaiting allocation. There were some signs that was beginning to taper off and that the graph was going steadily downwards. It has begun to plateau a little and further work is being done to keep that on a downward trajectory. Within that, there has been a 77% reduction in cases that were deemed to be a high priority. More than 2,000 inspections of early years services were carried out in 2016 and there were 432 new registrations-notifications in 2016, which was a threefold increase on 2015. Educational welfare services worked with an additional 3,700 new children in the 2015-2016 academic year, and 31,000 children and 23,500 families were referred to family support services, also in 2016. A total of 155 family units of accommodation were provided, including 147 emergency refuge and family units, in domestic, sexual and gender-based violence services.

There are a range of additional improvements and enhancements within financial governance and controls which cover a range of expenditure areas. These are referred to in the background information that we have provided.

I acknowledge and welcome the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and its findings. I and the agency value the process the Comptroller and Auditor General undertakes which highlights the areas that need change and improvement. The independent audit process also identified areas of strength and showed where good and tangible progress has been made year on year. I am aware of the current weaknesses within the agency regarding procurement and grants in particular. Alongside the senior management team, I am leading on the implementation of specific and relevant programmes to address these weaknesses and bring about improvements. As these long-term solutions are in the process of being introduced, some of the same issues might come out again in 2017 but I am confident the Comptroller and Auditor General will see clear plans and actions in place to address these issues.

The specific issue of non-competitive procurement has been raised. We selected procurement as a priority area to be addressed. The steps we have taken thus far to address these issues include the implementation of a three-year procurement plan which will address the short and long-term needs of the agency. The plan identifies the priority procurement categories for the next three years, emphasises the need to improve collaboration and recognises that continued training and communication with all relevant staff is a key task to sustaining the changes made. We have established a team dedicated to procurement which will be its sole responsibility. That is another example of us using the additional investment to become as self-sufficient and independent as possible.

On the specific issue raised of the monitoring and oversight of grants to outside agencies, as was mentioned, the agency funds in excess of 900 separate organisations to the sum of approximately €144 million.

As part of our transformation programme, a dedicated project working group was established to develop and implement a programme of governance and compliance for the section 56 and section 59 grant-funded agencies.

The objectives of this programme include the creation of a new section 56 and section 59 contract, which has now been completed - our corporate solicitors have finalised that - with an accompanying governance framework and an internal governance model. The internal governance model includes a standardised process and structure for the review and monitoring of service deliverables. It will be further supported by the introduction of a commissioning unit and a compliance unit whose focus will be on the governance and oversight of those grant-funded agencies.

Obviously for any programme of change of this magnitude to be effective, it must commence with knowing where the weaknesses are and knowing what needs to be changed; we know that with the help of the Comptroller and Auditor General. I and my senior management team were acutely aware when Tusla was established that there were significant areas to be improved. I knew this would be a difficult challenge to undertake but we believe it is not insurmountable and we have already made very significant progress on all the areas that have been highlighted.

In order to build upon and continue with developing Tusla as the agency which provides the best services we can for children, young people and families, we need to be given some time. We have been given additional resources. We believe that some further additional investment in years two and three of our new corporate plan for 2019 and 2020 is necessary. The additional investment we have had has been hugely helpful in allowing us to make the improvements we have made so far; there is still more to do.

I thank the Chairman for inviting me and my colleagues to appear before the committee to present and discuss our annual financial statements for 2016.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. McBride.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. McBride for his patience. I apologise for leaving him for almost five hours. Unfortunately, as the Chairman outlined, that is the nature of this House from time to time. I welcome Tusla's third-year audit and its clear audit from the Comptroller and Auditor General. While not wanting to diminish the exceptions relating to procurement, payroll etc., they are rather usual.

It is not just State money that is involved in funding the Child and Family Agency. We note Atlantic Philanthropy's generous donation in the accounts. I also thank the Committee of Public Accounts secretariat for the preparation of the report given to me, mirroring that produced by the Comptroller and Auditor General. I also commend Tusla on the format of its accounts, which are quite refreshing in comparison with what is produced by some Departments. I found them very easy to read and I thank Tusla for that.

I note that the agency managed to spend all but €700,000 of its allocation, which is a significant decrease on the €8 million left over in the previous year.

Procurement is the biggest issue identified here alongside some technical smaller matters. Tusla's internal process identified €5.2 million whereby competitive processes were not used in the procurement of goods and services. It was quite disturbing that the Comptroller and Auditor General's audit found more that Tusla had not determined. I ask the witnesses to give me some detail on the three-year plan on procurement that was mentioned. I will not be specific as to whom I ask the question of - Mr. McBride might like to start.

Mr. Fred McBride:

I will give some headlines of what we will be looking at. One of the areas is where we have used agency staff in administrative and managerial grades. The original contract was meant to be solely for front-line practitioners - social workers, social care and the like. We have all had a very significant need for administrative and managerial grades as we have developed the agency. That is an area we need to address. We have commenced a procurement exercise to address this; it is in the region of €7 million.

The other one made headlines in relation to private foster care. We buy places for children from independent fostering agencies and they hitherto have not been subject to contractual arrangements. We have a process in place now to put them on a kind of framework contract, including supported lodgings as well; so that is in hand.

The other areas are around psychology, assessments and therapeutic assessments, often court-directed where if a HSE psychologist has not been available we have been forced to buy an assessment, essentially, from a private therapist or psychologist, many of whom, as I understand it, are employed by the HSE anyway, but do this privately. That is an area that clearly needs to be tightened up. We have plans to ensure there is a contractual framework around that.

There was an issue raised about security. Of course, security for some of our buildings may be security in a special care unit, residential unit or secure unit for our children. There are particular needs there. It is not just routine building security; there is a bit more to it than that. A new portfolio has been set up in health business services to address the expired contract-----

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I do not wish to interrupt Mr. McBride. We are talking about not following procurement rules here. I appreciate he is outlining a number of agencies or organisations from which Tusla is hiring. Why were the procurement rules not followed for these goods and services?

Mr. Fred McBride:

A lot of that is to do with legacy issues because we inherited them and we had to then work hard to get the proper contractual arrangements in place. They were not there when we were established and we have had to-----

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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My only observation is that with Tusla being a new agency only three and a half years old, I would have hoped that we would start afresh with a new organisation and not bring in some of the bad habits - I do not want to call them that, but let us call them what they are - from other Departments. It is lamentable when a new agency, such as Tusla, is bringing €5.2 million of bad habits into the organisation. I understand any audit will highlight issues of people maybe bending the rules for expediency purposes; that happens everywhere. Having said that, this is taxpayers' money and Mr. McBride has a responsibility to ensure those rules are followed.

I ask Mr. McBride to outline the nature of the three-year plan. How is Tusla getting those agencies and suppliers on board in terms of service level agreements? It was highlighted, for instance, that some of the SLAs were not signed until the third quarter of the year in which they were in operation. That is clearly not acceptable. That might not necessarily be suppliers; it might be other service providers through the Tusla family. I want to ensure that the compliance department in Tusla is doing its job appropriately.

I highlight one other small thing. Clearly there is an issue if €700,000 is not identified by Tusla's own internal audit or accountancy function and has to be highlighted to it by the Comptroller and Auditor General. I ask Mr. McBride to give me some information on that.

Mr. Fred McBride:

While it was highlighted by the Comptroller and Auditor General, I do not think the Comptroller and Auditor General was telling us anything we did not know. We knew-----

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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From an accountancy perspective, the Comptroller and Auditor General was. That is what appears in Tusla's financial statement.

Mr. Fred McBride:

We did know about these kinds of issues. Some of it comes down to capacity and being dependent when we were set up for these functions on another agency through a memorandum of understanding.

We are now in a position, perhaps for the first time in the three and half years we have been in existence, whereby we can put in place the capacity to deal with these kinds of contractual issues. That is now what we are beginning to do.

The Deputy strayed into the grant side.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I did.

Mr. Fred McBride:

We were giving grants to service provider agencies. We already have a more robust grants register that we can interrogate. Where we have done our own auditing and interrogations and raised matters, we have suspended some payments. We are putting in place a commissioning unit to support our commissioners and the people who commission these services are generally our local area managers because they know the local services. We are putting in a national commissioning unit to support that, and much progress has been made there. We are confident during the course of 2018 and certainly into 2019 these processes will be much more robust than they have been hitherto.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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In the agency's three-year plan on procurement, what level of decreases will we expect to see in next year's accounts, for example?

Mr. Fred McBride:

During the course of 2018, we want all our expenditure to be accounted for through a competitive procurement process where that is necessary.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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Okay. We will wait until next year for that. I mentioned the service level agreements, SLAs, and I will focus for a moment on the compliance side as opposed to anything that might have gone on. Why would it be the case that a third party agency would be subject to a service level agreement it has not signed? Why would Tusla effectively allow six to nine months to pass before receiving authentication of that SLA? Why is that the case?

Mr. Fred McBride:

We have been putting together a new contract or service level agreement for these agencies that we think is more fit for purpose. It is not that there was nothing in place before that but a new contract has just been completed that we think covers all the compliance matters that need to be covered. Some of this comes down to capacity on our side and other aspects come down to an attitude and culture, perhaps, among providers, as they do not necessarily want to be as accountable to us as we would like them to be. Perhaps they had a history of being much more independent in what they do with their grants and the conversations we have been having with them recently are to the effect that just as the committee argues, this is public money and we need to be sure of value for money and service deliverables and outcomes for children. A bit of an attitude and culture shift is required in that regard with our relationship to the providers, some of whom have been able, dare I say, to do as they pleased in the past.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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One of the alarming statements in the report was that it is not possible for the agency to provide assurances on all moneys provided to grant-aided agencies. The agency's approach to enhancing governance and control has been to address the areas where there is identified potential risk. We are not talking about a small amount of money. I hope we can see improvements in that.

Tusla only conducted 15 audits in 2016. How many have been conducted in 2017 thus far?

Mr. Fred McBride:

In establishing our compliance units, we have now issued a total of 568 compliance statements and approximately 320 of those are now being analysed.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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In terms of the 15 identified in this annual report, is it comparable? Let us compare like with like.

Mr. Fred McBride:

There were a further 17 in 2017.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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It is 17, so we have not had a big increase, which is what I was hoping for as Tusla was funding 986 agencies in 2016. Is there a plan to ramp up the number of audits being done to ensure we do not have procurement or expenditure difficulties, or money not being expended correctly?

Ms Helena Hanna:

Tusla does not currently have an internal audit function. We rely heavily on Health Service Executive internal audit and it is very supportive with those services. In addition to that, we procured the services of an independent audit firm that we have engaged to complete these audits on our behalf.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I see.

Ms Helena Hanna:

Some audits are random but some are selected for reasons like service issues or reviews of accounts.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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Tusla will be given additional resources next year so will it be in a position to allocate any of them towards an internal audit function? Is that the intention?

Mr. Fred McBride:

It is interesting as the board met the other week and it just recently charged me with putting together some option models for an internal audit function. It is early days but I will need to bring some options for it.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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It is a process and it is being looked at.

I am quite surprised by the VAT issue. The agency was operational for two and a half years when the Revenue notified it that it was not to charge VAT. I find that a bit strange. My own dealings with the Revenue Commissioners led me to believe that if I did something wrong, I would know within a week or two at the most. That was back when I was in business. The agency got away with it for two years. I know it was simply complying with that it thought was the appropriate tax code.

Ms Helena Hanna:

To clarify, the guardians ad litemwere applying VAT to their invoices, which we were paying. We were seeking clarification from Revenue as to whether VAT should apply in such cases and as soon as we received notification on the VAT status, we recognised the debt with the guardians ad litem. We wrote to them and the balance outstanding at the end of 2016 was just shy of €1.6 million. We have collected €1.5 million of that to date.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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Very good. My question was to be how much is left to be collected but that is fine. Within the payroll section, there were overpayments of €422,000 in 2015 and that rose to €721,000 in 2016. Why has there been a significant increase? Is this to do with more people being employed or is there some other issue?

Ms Helena Hanna:

As an agency we have not increased on the incidence of overpayments. With the establishment of the agency there were nine separate payroll ledgers operated independently throughout the country but we consolidated those to one payroll ledger. We feel we are more accurately accounting for overpayments in our balance sheet and this gives a more true reflection of the position.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I see.

Ms Helena Hanna:

We also have a very robust plan in place to recover those moneys and existing employees will have repayment plans in place by mid to end of November.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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That is this year.

Ms Helena Hanna:

Yes.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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Are there are any non-compliant or non-participating members of staff?

Ms Helena Hanna:

It is a programme we are going through now. With our financial regulations, we can enforce repayment plans in line with the period in which the employee received overpayment. We will be applying that.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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The agency increased the provision for doubtful debt by almost 400%.

Ms Helena Hanna:

Yes.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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Why was that?

Ms Helena Hanna:

That was on advice from the Comptroller and Auditor General, which we agreed with. We were originally recognising third party debt based on age; that was greater than six months and greater than a year. We included payroll overpayments just to be prudent, although we feel we will recover that debt. As part of our bad debt provision policy, it was felt we should be applying that to all debt and not just third party debt.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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Were any overpayments on staff incurred in 2014, the first year, that are still outstanding?

Ms Helena Hanna:

Yes, there are outstanding balances. If the parties were in receipt of those moneys over two or three years, they would be entitled to repay that over two or three years.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I understand. That is fine. The mandatory reporting is clearly an issue at which the agency is staring down the barrel.

Does Tusla have sufficient resources to deal with mandatory reporting in less than six weeks? Will the additional 300 personnel to be recruited by the agency in 2017-18 be enough? Is the witness confident that Tusla has the overall resources required to deal with it, not just personnel?

Mr. Fred McBride:

We have been in preparation for mandatory reporting for some time now, indeed before the Minister's announcement. We submitted, as part of the Estimates process last year, three case scenarios. These were a modest increase in referrals which may result from mandatory reporting, a moderate increase and a more extreme increase. Ultimately we went with the more modest increase in referrals, based on research that we had carried out on other jurisdictions which had introduced this model. There is a school of thought that, given that the Children First guidance has been out for some years, that people have been acting as if mandatory reporting is already in place. Whether that is true or not is difficult to say. It is also difficult to be absolutely precise about the numbers of additional referrals that Tusla may get. We have developed a business case on the more modest increase. In preparation for that we have 304 staff of all grades in the recruitment process currently. Some 185 of them are social workers. We are hoping to land a significant number of those in 2017, before year end. A number may then fall over into the early part of next year.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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How far into the recruitment process is Tusla?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Each role is at a different stage. Some will have had job offers, some will have had start dates already established and some will be waiting on Garda vetting. We are confident we can get most of the 304 staff in by the end of the year, and a further 150 staff next year. Overall there will be 454 new staff members over the next 14 months or thereabouts. As part of the 2018 estimates process there is investment to deal with that. It is difficult to be precise and say that will be enough staff to deal with the increase in referrals, but we base these numbers on the case scenarios we developed. We created a reasonably sophisticated business case. If the numbers of referrals are within that modest bracket we feel that Tusla can cope with it. It is not all about social workers. There are only a limited number of social workers produced in Ireland every year. It also encompasses administrative grades, social care workers, family support workers and other grades of staff as well who can assist in diverting referrals away from the "statutory" social work intervention. Some of these referrals can be diverted to a lower level, a less formal type of response. It is very important that we respond to these referrals in a proportionate way by neither over-reacting or under-reacting to them. We are confident with the investment and with the numbers that we have projected that we can deal with that.

A very important development is our national childcare information system, NCCIS. It is a client index system, a management information system which will track all of the children we deal with now and into the future, regardless of where they are in the country. Eight of our 17 operational areas will be using NCCIS by the end of this year, with the remaining nine coming on stream by the summer of next year. That will assist in getting a timely and proportionate response to these referrals and ensure that as children move around the country with their families they are tracked and that whatever response we have made to those referrals is captured and that information shared. We will also have a dedicated email address in each of the 17 areas for receiving and responding to mandated reports, which is another development we are putting in place at the moment. We are becoming increasingly independent from the HSE on the ICT front. We have our own domain now which contains Tusla-only information and which is managed by us. We are not relying on the HSE in that regards. The roll-out of NCCIS will represent significant progress for the whole ICT strategy. While we cannot be completely sure about the increase in referrals we have made a reasonably sophisticated calculation in terms of what we need, which formed the business case that went to the Department as part of the estimates process.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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My last question specifically refers to referrals from An Garda Síochána. Does the witness have an estimate of the number of referrals nationally, and-or the number of times that Tusla has assisted An Garda Síochána with interviews in this audit year? If the witness has more recent numbers I would appreciate those also.

Mr. Fred McBride:

An Garda Síochána is our biggest source of referrals. I do not have a breakdown in front of me but we can certainly send it to the committee. We carried out a recent piece of work to break down the sources of referrals.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps the witness could send it to the secretariat for distribution. That would be very helpful.

Mr. Fred McBride:

That has been done. I do not have the figure with me for joint interviews, but we have had a significant increase in the numbers of social workers specifically trained in joint interviewing with the Garda, and we anticipate that further social workers will be trained, which will increase the numbers of joint interviews that are done. I can get these figures to the committee.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witness, the representatives from Tusla, the Department and the Comptroller and Auditor General. I am none the wiser as to the three year plan for improving Tusla's procurement, but-----

Mr. Fred McBride:

Would the Deputy like a copy of it?

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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That would be helpful.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome Mr. McBride and his team, and thank them for their patience during what has been a long day. I thank them for the presentation of their accounts as well.

Does the witness have a copy of the annual financial statement for the year ending 2016? On page 16 there is a section on travel and subsistence payments concerning the family support agency. Can the witness explain to me what that is about?

Mr. Fred McBride:

In simple terms, it concerned an individual member of staff double-claiming.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What part of the country did this happen in?

Mr. Fred McBride:

This happened in 2013, pre-dating Tusla.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Tusla had a role in some of this in terms of how it played out. We will get to the dates in a moment. This happened in Waterford, is that correct?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The double payments occurred because the individual involved was employed by a local family support agency but was also on the board or was a director of the national agency, is that correct?

Mr. Fred McBride:

He was on the board.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Essentially he double-claimed. How did this first come to light?

Ms Helena Hanna:

It came to light through a Comptroller and Auditor General audit. An audit of the family resource centre was carried out. It often selects one of our funded agencies to conduct audits on. We strongly believe that the claim made against the family support agency was a valid claim. It was authorised, reviewed and validated. We even went so far as to check dates and locations to validate the claims made. They were all signed off on and approved, as I am sure the Comptroller and Auditor General will confirm.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will get to the role of the Comptroller and Auditor General in a moment.

Ms Helena Hanna:

Yes.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am curious to ascertain what Ms Hanna means by a "valid claim". Maybe she will talk me through how an individual would claim.

Ms Helena Hanna:

Okay.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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How would that work in practice? Is there a form to be filled in?

Ms Helena Hanna:

Yes.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I ask Ms Hanna to talk me through that process.

Ms Helena Hanna:

The form that is completed in respect of a business journey that has been undertaken must include details of the start and end dates. There may be kilometres and subsistence to be claimed.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Ms Helena Hanna:

If there are any receipts, they are vouched and attached to the form. The form is signed off by a senior member of the team who is above the grade of the person submitting the form.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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This is essentially a travel and subsistence form.

Ms Helena Hanna:

Yes.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. What else would be on that form?

Ms Helena Hanna:

If expenses were incurred as part of the carrying out of the business, details of such expenses would be attached to the form for validation.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Would there be anything else on that form?

Ms Helena Hanna:

The reason for the trip would be stated as an explanation for why it was necessary.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is Ms Hanna aware of anything else that might be on the form?

Ms Helena Hanna:

The individual's signature and the dates, etc., would also be on the form.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I imagine it would be important for the person submitting the form to have to declare that he or she was not claiming for the same expenses from any other organisation. Maybe that is not on the form. Would that be on the form? Is it something that would have to be signed for?

Ms Helena Hanna:

I cannot confirm what was in place in 2013.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will come to Mr. McCarthy in a second. Is Ms Hanna saying there is no such requirement as part of the-----

Ms Helena Hanna:

There would be such a requirement today, but this happened prior to the establishment of Tusla.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking in real time. When this individual filled in the forms in respect of the expenses that were essentially double-claimed over a five-year period, as part of that would he or she have had to sign a declaration that the expenses were not claimed elsewhere?

Ms Helena Hanna:

I actually do not know.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Hughes is saying "No". Ms Hanna is saying "No".

Ms Helena Hanna:

I do not know.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Can Mr. McCarthy answer this question?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I certainly can. It was absolutely the case that all of the claims that were submitted to the Family Support Agency had an assertion that no claim in respect of the same period had been or would be made against another Government Department or elsewhere. This assertion, which was on all of the claims, was a requirement of the Family Support Agency at the time.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Obviously, that is different from what we have heard previously. There was a clear requirement. As part of the declaration that would be made, the organisation would be informed by the claimant that he or she was not claiming expenses elsewhere. The claimant would tell the organisation that it was the only place he or she was claiming expenses from. That did not turn out to be the case. Mr. McCarthy is saying that the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General routinely audits various organisations. I imagine those audits look at a range of issues, including governance.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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How did Mr. McCarthy come across this issue?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I would not characterise it as a formal audit.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It was an inspection.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

In effect, it was associated with an assessment of the responsibility of the grant giver in monitoring and dealing with the agency. It was done on a sample basis. We do this in the HSE. We will be talking about that next week. We extended it to other grant givers. In effect, we were looking at how business was done and how it related to the-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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How did the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General establish that there was an issue with a double claim? Was this for 2012 initially?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It was in relation to 2012.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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How much was that for?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

We identified that in one of the resource centres, there were claims in respect of attendance at meetings in the Family Support Agency. That led us to ask the Family Support Agency whether it had made payments in relation to the same periods.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What was the outcome of that?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

We identified a figure in the course of the audit. From recollection, the figure for 2012 alone was in the order of €7,000. That was how much had been claimed on both sides.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Did the local family resource centre conduct an examination into this? Did it do its own examination?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

My memory of it is that while the audit was ongoing, and before we had communicated to the Family Support Agency, the individual came forward and reported to the resource centre that he had been double-claiming.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The total amount that was double-claimed was €44,000, which is not a huge figure in Tusla's overall budget. I am concerned about the process. This is important because it does not relate to this issue only. It could have implications for other public bodies. I am trying to establish what happened to enable us to resolve this issue. At some point, this was reported to the Standards in Public Office Commission, SIPO. Who made the initial report?

Ms Helena Hanna:

We did.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Can Ms Hanna explain to me what Tusla did when it wrote to SIPO? Specifically, in what way was it reported to SIPO?

Ms Helena Hanna:

It would have been a disclosure as a finding to SIPO. It would have conducted its own review. The SIPO report determined or deemed that because it was a double-claim, all the claims were invalid. We have been instructed to look to recoup the money and we are quite happy to do so.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That is not how it transpired. There was a delay in SIPO's investigation of this matter because Tusla simply made a disclosure. There is a difference between making a disclosure and making a complaint, so SIPO did not-----

Ms Helena Hanna:

No.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Bear with me now. I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to confirm my understanding that there was some delay in SIPO examining this matter and that it was only when the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General contacted SIPO that an inspector was appointed. Was a complaint made by Tusla, or was it simply a disclosure?

Ms Helena Hanna:

The advice we were given at the time was that it was surrounding not only the individual but also the auditor.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Was it a complaint or was it a disclosure?

Ms Helena Hanna:

It was a disclosure.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A disclosure.

Ms Helena Hanna:

We were advised that we could not make a complaint.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Tusla was advised that it could not make a complaint.

Ms Helena Hanna:

That is my understanding.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Ms Helena Hanna:

We did not engage the auditors. There was an issue regarding the auditors as well. We could not-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What was Mr. McCarthy's role in this? Would he have been frustrated at this point because a disclosure rather than a complaint was made?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I have to say that I am a member of the Standards in Public Office Commission as well, obviously.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The report from Tusla to the Standards in Public Office Commission was a report that there had been double-claiming, but it did not name an individual. I have a copy of the commission's report in relation to that. The chairman of the commission wrote back to Tusla to ask it to state who the individual was, on the basis that the commission could not act unless it had that information. At that stage, further detail in relation to the matter was provided by Tusla. The commission then decided of its own volition to carry out an investigation into the matter.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It did so of its own volition and not because it had received a complaint. At that point, would the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General have had any contact with SIPO? Would it have been asking questions about whether there was an examination?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

As a member of the commission, I was aware of developments.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The chairman of the commission wrote to me, as a member, and asked me for assistance with this matter.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I seconded two members of staff to assist with the investigation of the claim forms when they were requisitioned from-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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When this first came to light and Tusla was first made aware of it, would it have dealt with it satisfactorily? Would it have appreciated that it needed to make a complaint and to inform SIPO? Did it decide that this was primarily an issue for the local organisation - the local funder - to deal with? I ask Mr. McCarthy to answer that question in his capacity as Comptroller and Auditor General and not as a member of SIPO. Obviously, he is here as Comptroller and Auditor General and is not speaking for SIPO.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I think there was a view that the director in question was attending meetings of the Family Support Agency and therefore should properly be reimburseded. Initially, there was no desire or wish to make progress with the matter and report it. We made the case that it should-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Would the Comptroller and Auditor General's belief that there was no desire to deal with the matter be a concern to Tusla?

Mr. Fred McBride:

It certainly would.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Could Tusla draw up a note for me in respect of the process? I think there is a valuable lesson to be learned here, particularly if these issues arise again. Maybe Ms Hanna can explain where Tusla got the advice that it should make a disclosure rather than a complaint. Perhaps public bodies need to be educated on their actual requirements. If a body simply reports something without making a complaint, the report may not be acted upon. If it is not acted upon, there is a difficulty. If a complaint is made, it has to be acted upon. Tusla might come back to us regarding the process and on the question of whether lessons have been learned.

On page 16 of the report it says that the commission also found that it is a matter for the agency to recoup any moneys that may be due. What was the total amount of money that was due over the five-year period?

Ms Helena Hanna:

Approximately €50,000.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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How much was recouped?

Ms Helena Hanna:

We are in legal discussions at the moment with the solicitor to recoup the moneys. Our legal team is engaged with the solicitor-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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How much has Tusla recouped?

Ms Helena Hanna:

Nothing so far.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Nothing?

Ms Helena Hanna:

No.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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How many years later is that?

Ms Helena Hanna:

We only engaged with the solicitor this year, following the Standards in Public Office Commission, SIPO, report.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is that the full extent of it? Was there not an agreement between the local service provider and the individual involved, whereby he would make a contribution of €25,000 and not the full amount? I do not know if the Comptroller and Auditor General is aware of that. Is he aware of that?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, I am. I am just looking for the date?

Ms Helena Hanna:

Could I just add that we take that very seriously? We engaged a third party, and independent auditor, to go to the family resource centre and to complete a very detailed audit of the practices and processes in the centre to give us reassurance that any future moneys given to that centre would be used for their intended purpose.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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While the Comptroller and Auditor General is searching, I would just say to Ms Hanna that I am not assured because not one single cent of the money has been paid back. Notwithstanding the fact that Tusla is involved in legal discussions, what I would put to Ms Hanna is that there were problems with processes in the first place, as far as I can see, in terms of how this was dealt with, reported and then eventually examined. There was an acceptance by the commission, which was accepted by Tusla, that this money would have to be repaid in full.

Ms Helena Hanna:

Absolutely.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Not one cent has been paid back to date. There was also an agreement reached between the individual and the local service provider that he would only pay back half of the amount that was due, but even that has not been paid back. That does not fill me with confidence or assure me that this issue has been taken seriously and been dealt with properly. I ask Mr. McCarthy to confirm that an agreement was reached.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The figure, which may be closer to €44,000, related to the period 2008 to 2013. There were not records for a longer period, even though he was a director for a longer period, I think from 2003-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Was an agreement reached locally that he would pay €25,000?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That occurred in August 2013, where the director came forward to the centre and told the centre that he had been double claimed-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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This was before it was subsumed into Tusla. That would have been in 2015 or was it 2014?

Ms Helena Hanna:

Tusla was established on 1 January 2014.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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So it was afterwards-----

Mr. Fred McBride:

Anything before that would have been managed by the family resource centres.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Fine, but do the witnesses take my point that there are lessons to be learned here? Also, I ask them to give the committee an update as to the legal position at the moment and when they expect to get the money back. I am sure the taxpayers watching will want every cent of it back, if there was a double claim. I think the individual involved accepted liability and admitted to wrongdoing at the SIPO hearing, which is all the more reason for getting the money back.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are running out of time, Deputy.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have just one more question. Given that we are under time pressure, the witnesses might come back to me on this after the meeting. I am looking for details on the turnover of social workers. It is my understanding that it is quite high but perhaps the witnesses might be able to give us the numbers very quickly. Is Tusla having difficulties with retaining staff in this area? It has been brought to my attention that because of the remuneration levels, it can be quite difficult to retain staff. That has been reported to me anecdotally. I ask the witness to provide some figures now and to provide a more detailed analysis as a follow-up.

Mr. Fred McBride:

We can certainly give some detail now. We have a turnover figure for social workers here, which is around 6%. That actually compares reasonably favourably with other jurisdictions. A recent study by the British Association of Social Workers found that child protection social workers were only hanging around for 18 months. We are doing significantly better than that, I am pleased to say. That said, the Deputy is correct that retention is a challenge for us. We are actually recruiting quite large numbers but retaining those social workers at the front line is a challenge. We are conducting exit interviews so that we know why people are leaving. We are also expanding our senior practitioner scheme in order that every social work team will have a senior practitioner attached to it. That means that there is something of a career progression or career path for social workers to become senior practitioners, a way for them to stay in practice rather than-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is that the grade of advanced social worker practitioner? Is that grade still in existence?

Mr. Fred McBride:

It has now become senior practitioner but it is essentially the same thing. We are trying to keep people in practice rather than their career path always having to lead them into management.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I do not expect him to have the details at his fingertips now but I ask that Mr. McBride would write to us and tell us the turnover, year on year, over the past two or three years, just to give us some flavour as to whether there is a difficulty.

Mr. Fred McBride:

It is approximately 7%. I think it reduced during 2017 but I can confirm those numbers later.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is 7% the turnover?

Mr. Fred McBride:

That was the turnover, yes.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would that be unusually high or would it be a typical figure across the public service?

Mr. Gerard Hughes:

In terms of social workers, as Mr. McBride has said, it is not particularly high by international standards. I remember doing some work on this a few years ago and we were seeing turnover rates in other jurisdictions of between 15% and 24%. It is not high, comparatively. Tusla has been doing work with UCD on retention rates within social work, which is ongoing. They have found that retention is not a particular problem. It is more the manner of the work, the protection of caseloads for new staff and so on. Once people come into the child protection and welfare service, I will not say they enjoy the work but they get great satisfaction from the work. It is a matter of giving them the supports they need-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What I will do, given the time constraints, is write to Tusla with some follow-up questions in terms of the specific details I am seeking. I will leave it at that for now. I thank the witnesses for their responses.

Mr. Fred McBride:

On the matter of terms and conditions, to which the Deputy alluded, I have opened discussions with the Secretary General of the Department and argued that we really need to look at differentiated terms and conditions for child protection social workers. As someone who has managed social work for all of the care groups, including older people and those with disabilities, I can safely say that the child protection shift, and I have said this publicly, is the hardest shift and perhaps we need to be looking at differentiated rates. That is not entirely within my gift, however.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy MacSharry is next.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Deputy Catherine Connolly for allowing me to go ahead of her. I will stop at seven minutes, so I ask the Chairman to notify me when I have reached that point in order that I can give Deputy Connolly a few additional minutes.

Yesterday there was a report in the newspapers detailing the top-spending State bodies and Tusla was in fifth place, at €14,011,137. However, when I look at the accounts, I find it difficult to find that figure. I ask the witnesses if they can shed any light on what the authors of that report are adding up.

Mr. Fred McBride:

Fourteen million on what?

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The figure is €14,011,137, which puts Tusla in fifth place in terms of the top-spending State bodies' expenditure on external legal advice and services.

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes, we realised we were spending considerable amounts on legal services. Some of it is demand led because of court processes, of course. Courts often make repeated interim care orders, each of which needs legal representation. One of the things we have done is to take a significant amount of business in-house, as we have grown-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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That is really good but that is about the future. I am interested to see where this is in the accounts. I see professional fees of €3.429 million so I presume-----

Ms Helena Hanna:

It is in note 8 on page 37.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Page 37.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where is it?

Ms Helena Hanna:

It is listed as the Child and Family Agency Legal Services and the 2016 figure is €14.849 million

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, I see it now. My apologies; that was my misreading. That is fine. It is not that I am not interested in the future, it is just that time is short and there are several issues I want to address. How many people work in the national internal audit division?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is outsourced.

Ms Helena Hanna:

We do not have an internal audit function.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Who does that job?

Ms Helena Hanna:

The HSE's internal audit division.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It is HSE's internal audit which provides the service. There would be about 50 people working in that division, as far as I can remember.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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How much does Tusla pay the HSE for that?

Ms Helena Hanna:

It is part of our memorandum of understanding agreement so there is no fee. The HSE would retain a budget for those services.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, that is fine. I ask the witnesses to give some examples of legacy service issues.

Ms Helena Hanna:

In respect of what?

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It is a specific heading in the accounts - legacy services issues, on page 12.

Ms Helena Hanna:

On establishment of the agency, there was an amalgamation of child and family services from the HSE, the National Education Welfare Board and the Family Support Agency-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I understand all that. I am asking what kind of issues arise under this heading.

Ms Helena Hanna:

When we were established, there would have been different practices, processes, systems, contractual arrangements-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Are we talking about cases of bullying and problems? When we refer to legacy issues, are we talking about problems?

Ms Helena Hanna:

It is more like inheritance issues.

Mr. Fred McBride:

It is more to do with systems issues.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It is a change in administrative procedures, IT and all that kind of stuff.

Ms Helena Hanna:

It was a fundamental change across the country, yes.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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How much has that cost so far?

Mr. Fred McBride:

A point I made earlier was that through successive years of investment, we have been investing in our corporate capacity, ICT, HR, finance, freedom of information, data protection and so on. Although we have prioritised front-line services, we are now beginning to grow that capacity. I could give the Deputy a breakdown of our spending the investment on what we are calling organisational reform. I could give him a breakdown by function------

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry for stopping Mr. McBride. He is talking about the future, which is great. It is not that we are not interested in the future, but we are looking at the past for now in terms of the 2016 accounts. One thing that touches on the future is the question as to whether these legacy costs are going to continue. Is there an estimate of continuing legacy cost issues?

Mr. Fred McBride:

No, we would want to bring these two------

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Tusla has dealt with it and it is a one-off.

Mr. Fred McBride:

We will bring them to a conclusion.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fine. Tusla entered into a partnership with the Galway University Foundation, which is the agent for The Atlantic Philanthropies, through which Tusla is being given €8.05 million over three years and of which €2.94 million has so far been received. I see that Tusla's expenditure in that regard to date is €1.859 million, which seems to be all on staff and administration. Is that the case?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Most of it would be on staff, yes. In 2017, we have spent significantly more and are about two thirds of the way through the programme.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is The Atlantic Philanthropies funding being used to supplement staff costs for the agency because of central funding shortfalls? Are these staff engaged on specific projects tied to the qualifications for grant funding as described on page 41 of the submission? There is often a lot of criticism when charitable money is going into offices and administration. They are giving €8 million over three years to achieve "prevention and early intervention into the culture and operation of the new national family support system". Are we happy that the money is all going to achieve that?

Mr. Fred McBride:

It is almost all, to a penny, going to front-line services.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who manages the distribution of that money? Is it a separate unit within Tusla?

Mr. Fred McBride:

We have governance arrangements within Tusla to look at that in partnership with the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, DCYA, which sits on the steering group along with Galway University Foundation. There is a specific governance group looking at how the money is being spent.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has used seven minutes.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will ask one last question. Of the 986 agencies, Deputy Kelly asked earlier how many audits were done this year and the reply was that Tusla has audited 17 of those agencies. Is that correct?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is this year, and it was 15 last year. Is that correct?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes, but we have also completed what we are calling analytical reviews of the top 40 funded.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the difference between an audit and an analytical review? Is the analytical review as detailed?

Ms Helena Hanna:

An audit would involve actually being on site reviewing the records and getting access to-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And an analytical review is what?

Ms Helena Hanna:

An analytical review-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are told to answer a set of questions.

Ms Helena Hanna:

No, it is more around their annual accounts through gearing ratios-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So it is a desktop valuation, as an estate agency might describe it.

Ms Helena Hanna:

Yes.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The bodies actually being audited each year constitute about 1.7% of the overall number. How much do those 986 agencies get?

Ms Helena Hanna:

They get €144 million.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are looking into 1.7% of them in real terms on the ground. How does that compare in terms of best practice for similar organisations throughout the world?

Mr. Fred McBride:

We are looking at all of them. We have not necessarily done an audit or a desktop review of all of them but there is an ongoing process to examine locally with the area managers what they do-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand that. However, in terms of actual audit - most of us on this committee understand what audit is - we are auditing 1.7% of 986 bodies with an expenditure of about €144 million on an annual basis. Is that correct?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are there any plans to increase that? Does Tusla need more personnel? It seems to me that this is needed to give the level of peace of mind that is required - without prejudice to these fine organisations. There is an international best practice rate of around 20%, I would suggest.

Mr. Fred McBride:

That is why we now have a dedicated compliance unit that will look at these issues.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many work in that unit?

Ms Helena Hanna:

Just under two.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just under two? What does that mean?

Ms Helena Hanna:

I am speaking in whole-time equivalent, WTE, terms.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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In WTE terms, is it 1.75?

Ms Helena Hanna:

Approximately, yes.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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So 1.75 people in the compliance unit are going to take Tusla from an annual audit rate of 1.7% to what?

Mr. Fred McBride:

In addition to the compliance unit, we are establishing a commissioning unit which will have about ten or 12 people in it, including the head of commissioning. Significant additional capacity will be going into our monitoring and compliance activities of this kind.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I would suggest humbly that given the number of organisations and amount of money involved, WTEs are not going to cut it and neither are 11 people. There is an awful lot of money and agencies and we need a better system. I thank the Chairman.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Tusla will be four years old in January. Would the witnesses say it is past the crisis stage? Is it functioning 100% now to protect children?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Are we functioning 100%? No.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Let me go to page 19 of the submission, to which colleagues have already referred. It states that there are limited resources available to the agency and it is not possible for it provide complete assurance overall. Mr. McBride has gone some way to addressing that by talking about a compliance unit which is obviously greatly understaffed. What assurance can he give?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Only that in 2017 we received additional investment and again in 2018-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As a person in charge of this organisation, what assurance can Mr. McBride give us? Can he say 50%, 60% or 80%?

Mr. Fred McBride:

In respect of what?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In respect of the moneys that are going to almost 1,000 public bodies. I will come back to the issue of care in a minute.

Mr. Fred McBride:

I think by the end of 2018 we will have a fully compliant system in place, fully functioning commission and compliance units that will provide good governance and compliance over these grants.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

By the end of 2018.

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Tusla will by then have sufficient staff to ensure that compliance is 100% and it will not be worried about public appointments.

Mr. Fred McBride:

I think we will be as close to that as we can possibly be.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When does Tusla plan to go from almost two staff to the staff that it requires? How many staff does it require?

Mr. Fred McBride:

The two staff in the compliance unit will largely be around financial compliance. The commissioning unit will be the bigger team supporting the whole commissioning process. It is being built now. We have several people in place already.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many are in place?

Mr. Fred McBride:

About five or six, I think, at the moment.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many are required?

Mr. Fred McBride:

I think we will have a team of about ten or 12 ultimately.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So it is hoped to have all those staff in place and everybody compliant by the end of next year.

Mr. Fred McBride:

During the course of next year, yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

All the staff will be in place.

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes, that is the intention.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where in Tusla's accounts would I find the amount of money allocated to domestic violence in terms of dealing with it, providing safe places and also preventing it? Where would I find the sum which Tusla, as the responsible body, has allocated? While Mr. McBride is looking for those notes, where would I find a statement in respect of the crisis which SAFE Ireland has outlined? Its document, "The State We Are In 2016", states that "4,831 requests for refuge could not be met" last year and "that’s 14 unmet requests for refuge every day".

Mr. Fred McBride:

I am sorry, but to which document is the Deputy referring?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am referring to the SAFE Ireland document. While Mr. McBride is looking for his figures, this is the context in which I am asking for them - the situation outlined in this document in respect of domestic violence. I am not apportioning any sort of fault. I am simply trying to elicit how Tusla, as an organisation, is dealing with domestic violence. Where do I find the amount of money allocated to these issues?

Mr. Fred McBride:

The money allocated to domestic violence is largely used to commission services. We do not provide them directly. We fund a number of rape crisis centres.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I see that list. I compliment him on the context he has given. He has provided details and the list, which I why I am able to move on from those questions. How much money is given out? What is the total budget?

Mr. Fred McBride:

For domestic violence?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Mr. Fred McBride:

I can come back to the Deputy on that.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would love it today actually. I am normally very patient in respect of witnesses coming back to me, but this is a major crisis. I have raised it repeatedly in the Dáil, as have other Deputies. What is the allocation for domestic violence?

Mr. Fred McBride:

We will get it to the Deputy before we leave.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a figure, and that money is then given out to various organisations such as those Tusla has listed here - the Galway Rape Crisis Centre, Domestic Violence Response Oughterard, the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre and so on. Does all the money go out to those listed organisations or does the money allocated to domestic violence go anywhere else?

Mr. Fred McBride:

No, it goes to these organisations.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It goes to these listed organisations.

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes. In addition a small amount is spent on a small number of our own staff who commission these services.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is okay. It goes to staff who administer the services. When the witnesses get the figure for me, it will be the figure which goes out to these organisations.

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where is Tusla's role in responding to the crisis which has been highlighted to the committee?

Mr. Fred McBride:

We have made the case for investment in the area of domestic violence. In 2017, a further €1.5 million was invested.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where was the €1.5 million invested?

Mr. Fred McBride:

It was invested in domestic violence services. We have not had a performance statement or performance letter for 2018 yet, but we understand that the Minister will highlight domestic violence as another area which requires more investment in 2018.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As the body responsible for the protection of children, would Tusla accept that there is a major crisis if these figures are accurate?

Mr. Fred McBride:

I must confess that I have not read that report.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am shocked that Mr. McBride has not read it because it is a public document which has been made available to everybody. I will list some of them, I do not really wish to-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who published that document?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

SAFE Ireland. It is there available for everybody. I have mentioned it in the Dáil. I really do not want to use my few minutes reading out the figures, but they are so astounding that I will use my opportunity with Mr. McBride to ask what Tusla is doing about them. Some 4,831 requests for refuge were not met because there were not enough spaces.

Mr. Fred McBride:

In that regard, we are investing the money which we have been given for that purpose as best we possibly can.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely, that is why I want to get beyond blame. I want to know what submission Tusla has made to this Government as a result of its awareness of a crisis on the ground. What has it told the Government it needs, because it cannot protect these children? They are being turned away from refuges. Tusla is failing it its job, through no fault of its own, so what does it need to put in place?

Mr. Fred McBride:

That was part of the business case which we put to the Department and the Government over the last two years, both in 2017 and in 2018.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What did Tusla look for?

Mr. Fred McBride:

I will get that figure for the Deputy. An allocation of €1.5 million was given to us in 2017. We have yet to see-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was that additional funding?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What figure was it on top of?

Mr. Fred McBride:

It was on top of €24 million or thereabouts.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. McBride will come back to me on that.

Mr. Fred McBride:

We will come back to the Deputy on that.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is okay. It was in addition to €24 million. When I look at these figures, I see that 79% of women never report abuse. We are talking about the tip of the iceberg. I have lost the figure for the amount of safe places we are supposed to have, but we are way below it. We have less than a third of what we should have.

Mr. Fred McBride:

The total was just under €23 million this year. I thought it was in that ballpark.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was €23 million.

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does that include the new allocation?

Ms Helena Hanna:

That was the figure for 2017.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That entire €23 million goes out to the rape crisis centres and the various bodies listed, excluding a small amount used for administration.

Ms Helena Hanna:

Some €500,000 is used for internal staffing and administration costs.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Despite that public money going out, which is great, and despite the best efforts on the ground, this is the result. In Tusla's role as the statutory agent, how is it protecting children?

Mr. Fred McBride:

We receive ongoing reports from An Garda Síochána in respect of children who are in refuges or who are part of families in which domestic violence occurs. We intervene as necessary to protect these children. Domestic violence is quite a significant feature of the child protection and child welfare referrals which we receive. It is something we deal with all the time in terms of our interventions with families.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

According to the Council of Europe, we need 446 family refuge places. We have 143. I could be wrong on the figure of 143; it may now be 145. That is a crisis, is it not?

Mr. Fred McBride:

There is certainly a mismatch between what we have and what is deemed to be required, yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is the total figure which the witnesses have given me. I would love to see the submission which Tusla made to the Government in respect of the crisis on the ground and the impossibility of protecting women. Is there a written submission somewhere?

Mr. Fred McBride:

As part of the business case for the Estimates process, yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Great, could I please get a copy of it?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Great. I want to ask Mr. McBride a specific question. I apologise if I am blunt but it is the nature of the time restrictions on us. To go back to Dr. Geoffrey Shannon's report on section 12 and An Garda Síochána, was that published earlier this year or was it at the end of 2016?

Mr. Fred McBride:

The report was published earlier this year but relates to a period-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is okay.

Mr. Fred McBride:

-----between 2014 and 2015.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am only asking when it was published. Was it this year?

Mr. Fred McBride:

It was earlier this year, yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There were very specific recommendations in it in respect of Tusla and An Garda Síochána. Specifically in respect of Tusla, a number of recommendations were made and a period of time was given in which it was to fulfil those recommendations and report back. Where is it in that process?

Mr. Fred McBride:

We have discussed that report in full with An Garda Síochána. There is a strategic liaison committee. Senior people in An Garda Síochána, myself and the chief operations officers attend meetings of that committee in person. We have a joint action plan in place where joint action is required. That has now been submitted to Government and to the Minister. We are proceeding to implement most of these recommendations.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I count 13 recommendations, but it is difficult to count the bullet points. One of them relates to out-of-hours services - social workers and so on. When will those recommendations be complied with?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Again as part of the Estimates process for 2018 we have made a case for investing in further out-of-hours services. The Minister has been at pains to point out that particular development. She wants to see progress on that. Again, with the right investment-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just one second. I read through all the documents. I particularly noted the commissioning unit, the commissioning strategy and so on. My head was done in not with Mr. McBride, but with the language being used. Dr. Geoffrey Shannon came up with very specific recommendations because of the failure of communication on the ground between Tusla and An Garda Síochána in exercising its duty in respect of section 12. Is that not right?

Mr. Fred McBride:

One of his recommendations alluded to that, yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely. I can quote the recommendations to Mr. McBride. There was no follow-up with An Garda Síochána and there was no one to explain the situation to the gardaí in question after they did their best in taking a child into care in an emergency. Nobody from Tusla was coming back to them and guiding them. There are all sorts of recommendations here in respect of training. The report specifically mentions training for gardaí and a special person to be assigned to the Garda unit. Has that social worker been assigned? Rather than spend my time quoting the report, I will focus on those specific recommendations. Dr. Shannon went out on a limb to say that this must be done to safeguard children. He gave a time limit of a year. Can Mr. McBride come back to me with a written report as to which recommendations have been complied with and which have not? Will Tusla complete them all within the year? Has the social worker been assigned to An Garda Síochána? These recommendations are all listed in the report.

Mr. Fred McBride:

The plan is to approximately double our out-of-hours capacity outside of Dublin and Cork.

In the greater Dublin area and the Cork area, we already have full-blown out-of-hours service teams providing 24-7 cover. Other parts of the country are covered by on-call social workers. Currently, these workers can only provide advice and assistance over the phone.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I asked Mr. McBride about the recommendations in Dr. Shannon's report, where Tusla was in terms of complying with them and to revert to me.

Mr. Fred McBride:

That is no problem at all.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Tusla inherited a situation in the form of the women's refuge in Rathmines. Where are we in terms of the irregularities? I do not like to be parochial when highlighting matters, but this is a serious issue from what I have read. It appeared in the newspaper last year.

Mr. Fred McBride:

A root and branch review has been conducted on the Rathmines refuge and an action plan is in place to deal with what that review found. That work is ongoing.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When will we be aware of that? Will something be published as to what has been learned from this debacle? Is the refuge open?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes, it is an ongoing-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand that it is closed for other reasons.

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes. We have had to close it temporarily because of fire safety-related issues. Those did not have to do with the other issues.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand that. What is the status of Tusla's inquiry? Is it complete?

Mr. Fred McBride:

The review is almost complete. It is ongoing.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This was in the newspaper last year. It has been more than a year. How could it take this long to review something? What is the review's status? What has Tusla learned from it? What will be made public?

Mr. Fred McBride:

We can get that information to the committee when the review is complete.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Regarding residential placements, the expenditure has increased substantially. This is under independent placement provision on page 37. It has increased from €66.222 million to €72.137 million. Does this mean that prices have increased or more children have gone into care?

Mr. Fred McBride:

It relates to numbers of children-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

More children going into care.

Mr. Fred McBride:

-----rather than the cost of individual placements. We have managed to peg the cost of individual placements at approximately €5,000 per week per child, which of course is expensive.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Say that again.

Mr. Fred McBride:

It is approximately €5,000 per week per child. We have managed to peg it at that for the past couple of years, but the number of children going into these centres has increased,-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What percentage-----

Mr. Fred McBride:

-----which has led to the increase in the overall cost.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When I see the increase in the overall cost, it is a result of more children going into care.

Mr. Fred McBride:

It refers to more children going into that type of residential care. The overall number of children in care has not increased,-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It has not increased.

Mr. Fred McBride:

-----but more are going into that type of provision.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has the number of supervision orders increased?

Mr. Fred McBride:

No.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why?

Mr. Fred McBride:

That is a good question. As part of the review of the 1991 Act, we will be lobbying for greater powers to be provided through supervision orders so that this might hopefully lead to courts making more use-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. McBride-----

Mr. Fred McBride:

-----of such orders. More use should be made of them.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One second, please. The legislation is there. The courts are there. They are willing and able to give supervision orders. How many times has Tusla applied for supervision orders and been refused? What resources does Tusla need for supervision orders, bearing in mind that it is under national and European legal obligations to keep families together as much as possible? Of course Tusla has to-----

Mr. Fred McBride:

We can get the Deputy the numbers. My-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One second, please. These orders are important in terms of value for money, but they are even more important for children and families. We all know that a care order should be a last resort, so there is provision for supervision orders, but why are these not being used? What resources are there? What arguments have been made to any Government to fund Tusla so that it might apply for supervision orders?

Mr. Fred McBride:

I am trying to answer the Deputy's questions-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. Answer that point.

Mr. Fred McBride:

-----by saying that I believe that supervision orders are not used often enough because the legislation around them is inadequate. They do not give sufficient power to intervene properly with some of the issues that need to be addressed. Therefore, the courts and others revert to care orders. There is significant value in increasing the number of supervision orders but, in saying that, the powers within them need to be increased so that more use can be made of them.

I do not have the figure for our current number of supervision orders with me. We can get it, but the number is small as a proportion of care orders.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is Mr. McBride saying that it is not a lack of resources, but of proper legislation?

Mr. Fred McBride:

That is one of the reasons in my view.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What of resources?

Mr. Fred McBride:

More use of supervision orders would not necessarily increase the need for resources. It just means that we would shift-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is right.

Mr. Fred McBride:

-----the number who are on care orders to supervision orders. It does not necessarily mean that we would need more-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would happen to agree with Mr. McBride, if that were done.

I might be running out of time, so my final point is on the amount of money paid to consultants. I do not have time to go into the legal costs, which are horrific. I hope that Tusla will be back here next year with a much reduced figure on that front. Not only is it huge, but it has increased since last year.

Consultancy fees have also increased. Who were these consultants? I have lost the page. I believe that the figure was approximately €3 million. Maybe the Comptroller and Auditor General has it.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It is on page 38. The figure is approximately €3.4 million for professional services.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. McCarthy. Has that amount increased since last year?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Is the Deputy talking about management consultants?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I do not know what I am talking about. I am asking Mr. McBride to tell me about the management and consultants' fees.

Mr. Fred McBride:

We have used them for organisational reform. We have been trying to grow and reform the organisation, but we have not had sufficient in-house capacity to do all of that on our own, so we have needed some assistance. A small amount was spent on legal and human resources and there was a specific spend with the HSE. Some amount was spent on ICT, most notably the national child care information system, NCCIS, and €145,000 was spent on finance and taxation. A very small amount of €9,000 was spent on public relations and marketing and some other miscellaneous-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Were they all tendered for?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Where it was appropriate to tender for them, yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

None of them falls under the category of not being tendered for.

Mr. Fred McBride:

Not in this case.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. McBride.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I wish to put a few questions to Mr. McBride based on the documentation presented to us, for which I thank the witnesses. Tusla has 112 family resource centres around the country. It might send us a map of those. I have a feeling that they sprung up wherever people felt like they should spring up and that there are areas with significant needs that have no centres. Counties could be over-represented.

Mr. Fred McBride:

We can get a map to the committee.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

People might be aware of an issue. Staff in family resource centres are employed by private companies.

Mr. Fred McBride:

A small number of directly employed Tusla staff manage those resource centres.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Generally, though, the staff are-----

Mr. Fred McBride:

Many centres are run by local committees and the like.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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When some staff pursue matters of their pay and terms and conditions, they try to bring Tusla before the Workplace Relations Commission, but Tusla is steadfast about not doing so. Is that correct?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes, but we would not necessarily go down that road unless it was absolutely necessary. I do not want to pre-empt matters, as we have not yet received the Minister's letter of determination, but we are expecting that there will be further investment in our family resource centres in 2018 as well as a request to increase numbers, but an application process must be followed.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to go through page 2 of the financial performance summary. It deals with pay and staff numbers. The table on page 2 shows that, from 2015 to 2016, there was an increase of 136 whole-time equivalent staff. This is contained in Tusla document No. 817A.

Mr. Fred McBride:

Is that in our briefing document?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Between December 2015 and the end of December 2016, there was an increase of 136 whole-time equivalent staff, but Tusla only had an additional 18 in 2017. Why has it ground to a halt? I will read on to complete the question. The final paragraph in that section below the table reads:

Currently, Tusla's Human Resources recruitment function is progressing 304 posts that are at varying stages of the recruitment process and there are an additional estimated 145 posts to be recruited in 2018. Of these 449 posts, it is estimated that approximately 185 will be social worker posts.

How do the figures of 304 posts being worked on and another 145 next year tally with what appears to be only 18 additional staff in the chart?

Mr. Fred McBride:

In 2017 we had 252 new starters, but there were also 160 levers and another 60 or so retirees, so the net gain was small.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that one of the biggest turnovers for any State organisation?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Sorry?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why was there such a big turnover? There were 250 staff hired, so next year if Tusla recruits the extra 145 posts at that rate it will not even match the levers.

Mr. Fred McBride:

It comes back to the-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Reading that, one would think it is great news, but more people are leaving than are being recruited.

Mr. Fred McBride:

We do not have more people leaving. It comes back to the point about retention. The Chairman is correct about this, and how we put in specific measures to retain staff, particularly front-line staff and front-line social workers. With social workers, we tend to recruit in the last quarter because new graduates come out of colleges in September or October. We see a spike in activity in the last quarter. This is why we have 304 staff at various grades in the process.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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How many does Tusla hope to have before the end of this year?

Mr. Fred McBride:

We expect to land the bulk of 304 that are in the recruitment process by the end of this year. Perhaps some will go into January or February.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. McBride is saying that Tusla is well on the road.

Mr. Fred McBride:

The Chairman is right to point out that the retention issue is a real challenge.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Does the HSE have a similar retention problem? I would not have thought so.

Mr. Fred McBride:

I am not sure exactly what its retention rate is.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It varies by sector, but 5% to 7% to 8% is a fairly standard turnover rate, so the equivalent of 5% to 8% of staff must be recruited every year just to stay steady.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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To hold on to what an organisation has.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It certainly varies, because our own organisation is looking at a 15% a year turnover. That is just a comparison.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I want to go to the accounts on page 33 and I will also deal with pages 34 and 35. On page 33, there is a heading on note 2 regarding net operating surplus. Regularly at the Committee of Public Accounts people give out about the level of expenses of board members and senior executives, and it makes great headlines, but I want to say, and I suspect it will not be reported, that on page 33, which deals with the CEO's travel and subsistence, it states that during 2016, €147 travel and subsistence was reimbursed to the CEO. That is extraordinarily low. If that is the extent of it, it is an exemplar. If it was €14,700 it would be in the newspapers tomorrow. It is remarkably low.

Mr. Fred McBride:

If Chairman is referring to me-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I am paying Mr. McBride a compliment.

Mr. Fred McBride:

-----I am paid very little in the way of travel and subsistence. If I go down the country the train is paid for me in advance and accommodation is booked in advance through purchase order or a procurement card. I claim very little.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is obvious, and it is the lowest I have ever seen in a set of accounts and Mr. McBride is to be commended. Then I move to page 34 and look at board members' fees, and I see some directors have waived their fees entirely. That is a great news item that I have not seen too often before, and the directors concerned are to be complimented if they feel they want to provide all of their time and services and not claim their fee. On page 35, I see the board members' expenses and the total claim for the 11 board members referenced during the course of the year is €158. That is remarkably low again. We have never seen anything like it. It is a compliment.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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They are all volunteers.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I presume their hearts are in the right place, and it says something to me about the board that some do not take their fee and do not even claim travel. We do not see it very often in the Committee of Public Accounts and I want to highlight it. The committee had quite detailed discussions about another person's travel and expenses, and it is important from the board's point of view to put the other half of the equation on the record also.

I will now move on to the annual report 2016. I am concerned with regard to page 18, where it states the number of cases awaiting allocation, including those awaiting allocation for fewer than three months. The total figure was up to 9,000 in 2014 but this had decreased to approximately 6,000 at the end of last year. The number of high priority cases awaiting allocation has also decreased, according to the chart. The chart is going in the right direction but it is not there yet. That is probably the message I would take from Tusla's appearance here today. Tusla got off to a rocky start from its inception and it is probably beginning to get there now. Mr. McBride might comment on this because some people are still asking what is the solution. Is it more staff?

Mr. Fred McBride:

The Chairman has made a fair assessment and I thank him for it. We have had significant investment over the past two or three years. We have unashamedly and unapologetically tried to prioritise bolstering our front line with more social workers and social care workers and administrative support.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Believe it or not, people do watch Oireachtas television, and I ask Mr. McBride to explain to the viewers the difference between social workers and social care workers.

Mr. Fred McBride:

It is a slightly lesser qualification and that is all. Social care workers do not necessarily undertake the same range of tasks a professionally qualified social worker undertakes, but they provide a huge contribution to our overall front-line service. Most of our residential workers, for example, are social care workers.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I understand. Page 20 deals with the emergency out of hours service. How much financially has Tusla invested in this? It states the emergency out of hours service provides a call centre, with access to a local on-call social worker for An Garda Síochána for consultation and advice. What does that mean? What is the relationship? The word "local" is used. For example, how many will be available throughout the country on this Friday night?

Mr. Fred McBride:

During 2015 we invested approximately €750,000 in an on-call service outside the greater Dublin area and Cork, because in these two areas there is already a full team available 24/7. In the other areas of the country we have someone on-call, and I believe seven contact points cover the rest of the country. In terms of what we anticipate next year, we are still to receive the Minister's statement so I do not want to pre-empt anything, but we anticipate the on-call capacity will almost double, to pick up on Deputy Connolly's point, so we can provide not only advice and information to the Garda over the phone but a member of staff can physically attend an incident or situation and take custody of a child where necessary. This is what we plan to have in place from next year.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What kind of cost is involved? Clearly it is a very important issue.

Mr. Fred McBride:

What we have in place costs approximately €750,000, so that would be doubled.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What Mr. McBride is saying is that a member of the Garda Síochána comes across an incident first, and he or she then rings the social worker and it is not the other way around.

Mr. Fred McBride:

That is correct. In an incident of domestic violence, or whatever it might be, where a child is present and a garda deems it is not safe for the child to remain, as things stand at present the garda may call us and ask whether we know the family and do we have information on the family and whether the child is on our child protection notification system, which is like a child protection register. We can give this type of information over the phone, but as things stand at present we do not have the resources to physically attend the incident.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I understand.

Mr. Fred McBride:

During the course of next year we plan to put sufficient resources in place outside of Dublin and Cork, because we can already respond to these incidents there, but we will have enough capacity to physically take custody of a child where it is necessary to do so.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is the out of hours service. Is that phone line manned by Tusla staff or by external staff?

Mr. Fred McBride:

By our own staff.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They would want access to very confidential private data.

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes, they are on call. The gardaí can also access information on the child protection notification through the single number in Dublin, so they will know whether a child is on the notification system, what the category of abuse is and, indeed, whether they have been on the register previously as well.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I will move on to page 22 which refers to general residential services. What does that mean? To take the most difficult cases, is Tusla involved in managing Oberstown and such places?

Mr. Fred McBride:

We do not manage Oberstown but a number of children or young people may move between some of our special care units, for example, their secure residential units and Oberstown, so we end up dealing with some of the-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Who manages Oberstown?

Mr. Fred McBride:

The Department of Justice and Equality.

Mr. Gerard Hughes:

The Department of Children and Youth Affairs as well. There are two elements to it. The Irish youth justice service is an office of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. We are responsible for the operation of, running and dealing directly with Oberstown.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about staffing?

Mr. Gerard Hughes:

Yes, that includes staffing.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is outside Tusla.

Mr. Gerard Hughes:

It is outside of Tusla's allocation.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is also outside the Prison Service.

Mr. Gerard Hughes:

Yes, it is outside the Prison Service. It is within the Department of Children and Youth Affairs.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That area has experienced much difficulty in terms of staffing.

Mr. Gerard Hughes:

It has similar recruitment and retention issues to those Tusla has in terms of residential care and social care staff.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What age group does Tusla deal with?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Up to 18 years of age. Beyond that, when young people have been in care until their 18th birthday we have an obligation to offer some aftercare support to them. We may offer some financial assistance, advice, guidance, support and so forth.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to the vulnerable children on Tusla's books, and we dealt with this question a few years ago in respect of the HSE, have many children received injuries or died while in its care? Can Mr. McBride discuss that issue? What monitoring or recording system is in place? I know some children die of natural causes, but in some cases they might not.

Mr. Fred McBride:

There is a national review panel which produces a report annually on all the children either in care or who are known to services - not all of them are necessarily in care but they are known to services - who die either from natural causes, by accident or, all too often, by suicide, which is quite prevalent.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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How many was that last year?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Last year, I think we reported on 14 or 15 deaths. It was of that order.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Were there more boys than girls?

Mr. Fred McBride:

It varies from year to year. For example, and this is difficult to explain although we are trying to get under the bonnet of it, we had a spate of suicides in the Cork area involving boys.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What group produces that report?

Mr. Fred McBride:

The national review panel.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Who are they?

Mr. Fred McBride:

It is chaired by Dr. Helen Buckley and it is independent of Tusla.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is it part of the Department?

Mr. Gerard Hughes:

It works closely with the Department and with Tusla but it is independent.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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However, it is funded by the Department's Vote.

Mr. Gerard Hughes:

Yes. To be honest, I am not sure what part of the Department's Vote its funding comes from but we are responsible for its establishment.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Perhaps Mr. McBride would send the committee its last report.

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes, we can do that.

Mr. Gerard Hughes:

I wish to make a correction. I have just been informed that Tusla pays that review body directly from its funding. It comes from the Department's Vote via Tusla.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Page 69 refers to the workforce breakdown. We understand the difficulties and we may have mentioned that already. Regarding the absentee rate by group, the absentee rate is increased in residential services. The trend across the public service in recent years has been downward to reduce absenteeism. Why is it going the other direction in Mr. McBride's organisation and what is it doing about it?

Mr. Fred McBride:

It has, specifically in residential services. We are carrying out a fundamental review of the balance of the provision we have between our own residential provision and the children referred to earlier who we put into independent residential provider places. I do not know if we have got that balance entirely right. However, suffice to say that up until recently there has been very little investment in residential services for children. That is something we will have to put right. You will find that the absence rates are fairly closely correlated to things such as the level of violence and the violent incidents staff are subjected to in the residential centres. Staff have an entitlement to a period off work if they are significantly assaulted. I cannot remember how long it is and it would depend on the circumstances too. There is almost an in-built absence rate, as it were, by virtue of the fact-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The difficulty of the job.

Mr. Fred McBride:

-----that staff are entitled to have some time off if they have been assaulted.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have a question about the agencies to whom Tusla pays grants. This might be in the documentation or Mr. McBride could send it to the committee, but what percentage of those would be covered by service level agreements?

Mr. Fred McBride:

I think, at present, we are up to about-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is an issue we will be raising with the HSE as well.

Mr. Fred McBride:

I think we have signed service level agreements with up to approximately 80% of them.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. McBride might send us a note on that. In particular, he should list-----

Mr. Fred McBride:

That is improving all the time. We are aiming for 100%.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is. As I said at the beginning, the organisation had a difficult start and I understand that.

Mr. Fred McBride:

Does the Comptroller and Auditor General have a figure for it?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I have no figure at the moment.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Perhaps Mr. McBride would send us the information on that and list the largest ones with which Tusla does not have a service level agreement in place and the amounts they receive.

Mr. Fred McBride:

We have all that.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously they are the ones we would expect Tusla to deal with promptly.

Mr. Fred McBride:

They are the ones we targeted first.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Mr. McBride could give the committee a short report on that.

I have two final points. Domestic violence was mentioned by Deputy Connolly. Obviously, many protection orders and barring orders have been issued in the courts as a result of domestic violence and threats of such violence. Do Mr. McBride know how many were issued and how many children would have been in families where there was domestic violence that resulted in protection orders and barring orders being issued? I am trying to find out if there is a link between Tusla and the Courts Service. Can Mr. McBride say to me that in the Ennis District Court region there were X number of protection orders or barring orders that had an impact in respect of Y number of children and what Tusla has done about that? Do Mr. McBride have that type of information?

Mr. Fred McBride:

I do not know if we collect that specific data.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. McBride can understand why I think Tusla should.

Mr. Fred McBride:

We will have a look. Our management data around domestic violence is improving all the time but I do not know whether we collect the specific figure the Chairman is seeking, to be honest.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would consider it an acid test. Given that we are talking about the safety of children, if somebody goes to court for a protection order in respect of their family home or a barring order I would have thought there would be some such mechanism. I realise many of these cases are heard in camera, but how else does Tusla know what is happening? In other words, there might be many children involved in situations where there are protection orders relating to a family member in the family home and Tusla might not know about it.

Mr. Fred McBride:

If there were incidents that led to the barring order, the chances are that the Garda would have made a referral to us.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, but some of the protection orders are sought by family members without the involvement of the Garda.

Mr. Fred McBride:

We might have to get them from the Courts Service.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. McBride might provide us with a note on whether there is a link. Perhaps I am opening an area where I think Tusla should have a link.

Mr. Fred McBride:

Okay.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The final issue-----

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I might ask a few short questions.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fine. The final issue is that one of the most basic rights of a child in terms of child protection is a roof over their head. Page 44 of the report deals with homelessness. It is utterly inadequate. It states that homeless liaison was established in October 2015 to ensure Tusla meets its statutory obligations and organisational objectives in the area of homelessness. How many children are homeless tonight? Tusla is the child protection agency. It talks about its achievements in 2016 on the next page. The first is that Tusla has agreed a protocol. The next one is that it has had briefings relating to a protocol, and the next one is that it has established networks in the family support context. I get zero sense that the agency is doing something out on the front line. Is it all just outsourced to some other agency?

Mr. Fred McBride:

No. We have a liaison social worker in the Dublin area. We might have to increase that next year. In the Dublin area, the social worker can be contacted if there are particular concerns or particular need for supports.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there just one person acting as a liaison?

Mr. Fred McBride:

At the moment, it is just one person.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Presumably, it is during office hours and not at night when issues-----

Mr. Fred McBride:

There is an issue about whether that needs to be expanded during the course of next year.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I take Mr. McBride's point completely that not every child who does not have a permanent home is not in a loving family. I accept all that. However, he will understand that I consider children and homelessness to be the lightest part of what is an otherwise good report.

Mr. Fred McBride:

It is fair to say that our Minister is keen for it to have a significantly higher profile going forward.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

While that is a policy issue, I have come to the same conclusion as Chairman.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry I was late and missed much of the presentation. We have a had a busy day here. We were here until lunchtime and I have had to do a few other things in between. I welcome the witnesses. For an agency that was set up only four years ago, Tusla has a big spend of €669.473 million in 2016. It is a lot of money for an agency that is only in its infancy. There is a heavy responsibility and onus on Tusla having regard to the care of the children of the State albeit it only deals with children who are deprived or in want of its services. There is €13.56 million for the capital programme. To what does that relate? Is it the purchase of buildings for family resource centres and things like that?

Mr. Fred McBride:

It is buildings, refurbishment of buildings, minor capital works and some of our information technology hardware and equipment, including computers, mobile devices and so on. It is largely buildings.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What is the structure of Tusla? Is it Dublin-based and then spread out around the country or is it regional or county based? I am from Carlow-Kilkenny. If I want to get in touch with Tusla in the morning, is there an office in Kilkenny or Carlow? It is doing an important job all over the country, but what is its structure? Is it like the HSE and based everywhere?

Mr. Fred McBride:

We are a single national agency with a national management structure. However, that breaks down into four regions, Dublin north-east, Dublin mid-Leinster, south and west. Each of those regions has a regional director and four areas, respectively, with the region in the west having five. As such, there are 17 operational areas and these, for the most part, cover two counties each, for example Carlow-Kilkenny. That is in essence our operational structure.

Mr. Fred McBride:

What is the position with personnel on the ground? If there is a violence in a small village in the country, is Tusla accessible? What is the first agency called? I suppose it is the Garda. Is Tusla called in immediately after to analyse the issue that where, for example, there is violence or a sexual assault against a child? Does Tusla make the decisions or is it An Garda Síochána? Who makes the decision to take a child into care or to a family resource centre? Is Tusla prominent in that process?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes, we are. The first responder is normally An Garda Síochána, in particular if there is a violent incident or a child is harmed in some way. However, gardaí are obliged to then give us information about that and we either respond together with them or, sometimes, after their initial response. Decisions as to whether to remove a child in an emergency situation are made immediately by gardaí under section 12, which was referred to earlier, and we follow the matter up. If a child is to be removed on a longer-term basis through a care order, we apply to the courts.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It was stated that the 112 family resource centres were mostly privately run. Are they run by private concerns with which Tusla has contracts? What is the structure there?

Mr. Fred McBride:

We have a small number of directly-employed Tusla staff who manage these centres, but they are run by local committees. Some of them are limited companies.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Are they funded by Tusla?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Totally.

Mr. Fred McBride:

They may have some other sources of funding. A family resource centre may have an adult men's group around employment and the Department of Social Protection might pay for that bit of it. They have a range of services. The HSE might pay for-----

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am referring to children alone - to the children end of it. Tusla does not mix adults and children in the one resource centre.

Mr. Fred McBride:

They provide different services to different groups at different times of the day and week.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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There are Tusla workers and community employment workers in some of the resource centres around the country.

Mr. Fred McBride:

A range of services is provided but some of them are paid for from different sources. If it is an adult mental health group, for example, the HSE funds it.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Are they not places to stay, though? If a child is removed from a situation of domestic violence for his or her own protection, is he or she not placed in a family resource centre?

Mr. Fred McBride:

No. Family resource centres are not residential. They are open during the day, into the evening and sometimes at weekends.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Are resource centres like this available everywhere in the country?

Mr. Fred McBride:

They are everywhere but the Chairman commented earlier that there was a question as to whether they were in the right places and whether there was sufficient coverage across local communities. They have often grown up as a matter of history rather than being placed where they are absolutely needed. That said, most are in communities which have particular needs around deprivation and whatever.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Tusla was set up four years ago because of cases where neglect was permitted to continue by State agencies. In my area, the Grace case famously happened and we all know about that. Is Tusla able to guarantee that nothing like that will happen today? In the Grace case, a neglected child was left in foster care for years and years without anyone doing anything about it. It was ignored despite the fact that the HSE was aware of it. We had evidence given at this committee by witnesses, but no one could give us a satisfactory answer as to why that happened. Is it possible to give a guarantee that something like that cannot happen now with Tusla up and running, provided with resources, improving by the year and seeking further resources? Can we be sure a case of those proportions will never happen again? I know one can never say never, but is that the case generally speaking?

Mr. Fred McBride:

I certainly would not use the word "guarantee"; that is for sure. I cannot deal in guarantees in this business. It is impossible due to the unpredictable nature of human relationships. I would like to think that the systems and processes in place now mean that a situation like the Grace case, as it has become known, should not happen. There are sufficient systems, processes and safeguards to mitigate against that happening. However, the Deputy is right that one can never say never.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Chairman asked about homelessness, which I understand local authorities are responsible for. However, if children are being neglected because of homelessness, is there a role for Tusla to play or an influence it can bring to bear? I always mention my local authority of Kilkenny County Council. Can Tusla approach a local authority and say a particular family with perhaps three or four children should be given priority due to its particularly bad situation? Can Tusla use its influence with local authorities where there are bad situations?

Mr. Fred McBride:

There are good relationships locally. We have children and young persons committees on which local authority and voluntary sector representatives sit and which are chaired by our area managers. The HSE is also represented. As such, there is that kind of multi-agency discussion on the needs in local communities.

Most have now developed a needs profile and thus know the profile of their area. They are run on an individual county rather than a double county basis. They know what needs exist in their area and the range of services available and they are trying to match service with need. That is their role. We have the mechanism by which to liaise with local authorities and other public bodies-----

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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And Tusla uses that?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Yes, it does.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is the school completion programme, involving funding of €144 million and 900 payees, related to the roll-out of the early education school? I may have asked the wrong question. Can the witness explain it to me?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Tusla allocates a total of €144 million in grants to community and voluntary organisations. We give €24.5 million to the school completion programme.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What is the school completion programme?

Mr. Fred McBride:

It is part of our education and welfare service. It is run through schools and its objectives are to ensure that these are support projects in place to keep in school children who show signs of vulnerability or are at risk of not completing school and to ensure they get the maximum------

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does Tusla go in to schools to check on these issues?

Mr. Fred McBride:

We liaise with-------

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It also liaises with local schools and principals.

Mr. Fred McBride:

It does.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is that at primary school level?

Mr. Fred McBride:

It is.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is it mostly done at primary school level?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Secondary and primary schools.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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And secondary schools. Tusla goes in to schools to speak to teachers and principals to ensure-----

Mr. Fred McBride:

We can. Tusla education and welfare officers are active in this area as well as those running the school completion programme. We also have home-school liaison services, usually provided by teachers. If a liaison is needed between home and school about a child's progress or lack thereof, that can happen. There are children whose families have chosen, as they are entitled to do, for their child to be educated at home and we monitor those home-educated children.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is Tusla called in by principals and teachers or does it go into schools on its own initiative?

Mr. Fred McBride:

Both. We can be called into schools and we also make periodic visits.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is interesting.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Does that include the Youthreach programme run by Education and Training Boards, ETBs?

Mr. Fred McBride:

No, that is separate.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is run by ETBs.

Mr. Fred McBride:

We do some business with them but are not involved in the funding of Youthreach.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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