Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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On 28 September we met the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, to discuss its 2016 financial statements. At that meeting we discussed briefly management of conflicts of interest, and the committee was quite satisfied with the responses. However, an article appeared on 8 October 2017 in the Sunday Independent on a meeting attended by HIQA chairman, Mr. Brian McEnery, with members of Nursing Homes Ireland in October 2015. This has raised concerns for the committee, and the purpose of today's session is to clarify the extent, if any, to which there was a conflict of interest and whether HIQA governance standards are appropriate or sufficient to manage any such conflicts of interest.

We invited a representative of Nursing Homes Ireland to attend today's meeting voluntarily, but Nursing Homes Ireland declined the invitation stating it was unable to attend at this time. It has stated it will reconsider the request for a future date, and just before the witnesses came in we agreed to reissue the invitation to Mr. Tadhg Daly from Nursing Homes Ireland to attend at a mutually agreed time as soon as possible. We also invited representatives of the National Treatment Purchase Fund because we understand Mr. McEnery has advised members on the fund. It was unable to attend today because of another commitment.

From HIQA I welcome Mr. Brian McEnery, chairman, Mr. Phelim Quinn, chief executive officer, CEO, and Ms Mary Dunnion, director of regulation and chief inspector of social services. We are also joined by Mr. David Keating and Mr. Niall Redmond from the Department of Health. Members have received a document, which is a memorandum of the meeting referred to in the newspaper article mentioned earlier. Nursing Homes Ireland has stated it has not waived legal privilege over this document or the setting in which the meeting took place. As we have not had time to get our own legal advice on this I will insist that members do not refer to the document, which is a minute of that meeting prepared by Nursing Homes Ireland's legal adviser, which contains the heading that the document contains legal advice which is legally privileged. Members are free to discuss the opening statements and content of the meeting, but not reference the exact document mentioned because it is legally privileged. I do not want reference to that particular document, but the contents of the article in the Sunday Independent, which deals with the meeting and HIQA's attendance at it, is fully open for discussion here today.

I also want to put on record that because of the late receipt of the reply from Nursing Homes Ireland, which we received yesterday, we had expected it would be here today, so we have not had time to get full legal advice. In the meantime, as Chairman I am taking the cautious view, pending legal advice, not to refer to the document, which is legally privileged. HIQA had already submitted its statement, in which it refers in detail to the contents of that meeting. Through the secretariat, I sent word yesterday to HIQA not to include that aspect of its opening statement today because, as Chairman, without the benefit of legal advice I was taking the cautious view I do not want to trespass into that meeting where we have been informed by Nursing Homes Ireland that the minutes of the meeting are legally privileged. However, the committee had a detailed discussion in private session this morning, and I am quite happy to be guided by the committee that HIQA's original statement should be read into the record as it was originally intended, and my sending a message to HIQA was merely exercising a cautious approach pending legal advice. We are very happy for HIQA to discuss it and I apologise for any discommoding I caused yesterday evening by asking HIQA to shorten its statement. The committee is very happy, and I am happy to go along with the advice of the committee, for the full statement to be on the public record today.

I remind members, witnesses and those in the Public Gallery that all mobile phones should be switched off.

I advise the witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the provisions of Standing Order 186 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I believe Mr. Quinn will make a brief opening statement, followed by Mr. McEnery. The speakers have indicated in the following sequence: Deputies McDonald, MacSharry, Cullinane, Connolly and Catherine Murphy. I invite Mr. Quinn to make his opening statement.

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

On behalf of HIQA, I wish to thank the Chairman and members for the opportunity to address the Committee of Public Accounts this morning. As the Chairman has said, I am accompanied by my colleagues Ms Mary Dunnion, director of regulation and chief inspector of social services and Mr. Brian McEnery, chairperson of the board.

At our appearance before this committee on Thursday, 28 September, the issue of potential conflicts of interest arose, specifically with regard to Mr McEnery and his role as both chairperson of the board of HIQA and as an adviser to nursing home operators. Subsequently, an article was published in a Sunday newspaper, which was discussed by the committee last week. In order to help answer any questions the committee may have, I wish to outline HIQA's governance arrangements and how we handle conflicts of interest.

HIQA is committed to high standards of corporate governance. We have a clear policy on conflicts of interest, which ensures that staff and board members are aware of their obligation to act in the best interests of HIQA and to avoid situations where there may be a potential or actual conflict of interest. This policy is in line with Government policy, as set out in the Code of Practice for the Governance of State Bodies 2016.

HIQA’s code of governance and code of business conduct, which was approved by the Minister for Health in October 2014, also reflects the obligations of board members and staff under the ethics in public office legislation. Both documents have been submitted to the committee for reference. Our policy and procedures on conflicts of interest apply to board and staff members and are adhered to at all times. Furthermore, at the beginning of every board session, the sub-committees of the board and attendees from HIQA's management team are requested to declare any real or potential conflicts of interest. Any declarations are recorded in the relevant minutes.

All of HIQA's inspection staff work within a scheme of determination, which must be agreed to and signed upon commencing employment with HIQA. This scheme of determination clearly shows the level of regulatory decision-making the chief inspector permits her regulatory staff to make. In addition, regulatory staff work within a specific code of conduct, which includes a confidentiality clause.

The regulation of designated centres is based on a series of steps. This includes the initial receipt of information, which can include mandatory notifications, unsolicited concerns and protected disclosures; inspection activity, that is announced, unannounced or registration inspections; and the creation of a centre profile, which contains a description of the centre, a regulatory assessment of information received and the findings of inspections.

All regulatory activities, whether information or evidence received, regulatory judgments or inspection reports, are gathered, generated and saved within a secure information management system. Access to this system is determined and approved only by the chief inspector. No member of HIQA's board has access to this system.

Regulatory risk and judgments, and potential and actual enforcement actions, are managed by HIQA's regulatory risk committee, chaired by the chief inspector. All records of this meeting, decisions made and actions planned are stored within the information management system.

The chief inspector provides a monthly assurance report to HIQA's executive management team, a bi-monthly report to the board of HIQA and a quarterly report to the board's regulation committee. These assurance reports include an update on progress made against annual business plan objectives, details on the frequency of meetings of HIQA's regulatory risk committee and details of mitigating actions taken against any regulatory risks. Reports on quality assurance include information on key performance indicators, internal audit reports and an update on the external stakeholder engagement schedule. Furthermore, the chief inspector produces and publishes an annual report detailing all regulatory activities, which is a requirement of the Health Act 2007.

As CEO, I, along with the chief inspector and director of regulation and other officials from HIQA, regularly attend Oireachtas committees when requested. So far this year, we have presented to the Committee on the Future of Healthcare, the Joint Committee on Health, the Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs and, of course, this committee.

Finally, HIQA has received correspondence from a private nursing home provider containing a number of assertions regarding perceived conflicts of interest. This correspondence was copied to some Members of the Oireachtas. HIQA has directly replied to this through our chief inspector and director of regulation, Mary Dunnion, and separately through our board chairperson, Brian McEnery. We have made all of this correspondence available to committee members. I will now hand over to chairperson of HIQA's board, Mr. McEnery, who will address specific points raised.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it. In May 2013, I was appointed chairperson of the board of HIQA. It is a great honour to chair the board of the authority because its work is important in improving quality in our health and social care sectors. Since the authority's formation, I have been enormously impressed by the impact it has had on service improvement. As a student, I worked as a care assistant in the UK and saw, at first hand, the positive impact of regulation in that health system. I am enthusiastic about the role of Ireland’s regulatory body in our health service.

The board has in recent times been particularly focused on ensuring that there are prudent and effective controls which enable risk to be assessed and managed. We have devised a new and more comprehensive risk management suite of tools in the authority and these are aimed at ensuring that risks to the delivery of the authority's agenda are managed and mitigated. The board and its committees are also focused on ensuring that the resources of the authority are used optimally. Some of the key work undertaken by the board in recent times includes: approval of annual budget and corporate plan; approval of the annual report of the authority and its financial statements; and the assessment of performance of the CEO.

I am conscious that the committee wishes to address issues of conflict of interest and a recent report in the media surrounding a meeting of nursing home operators that I attended. I will address both of these issues in this statement. I suspect this is what committee members wish to ask me about so I am more than happy to address it directly. I am also happy to inform committee members about the exact nature of my contribution to the event.

First, just to set out the background to my appointment, I applied for the position of chairperson through the Public Appointments Service system. I displayed current and comprehensive experience of the health care arena garnered throughout my professional career. I have at all times before, during and since my appointment tried to ensure that I maintain the highest ethical standards in accordance with the code of practice for the governance of State bodies and, indeed, the code of governance of my own professional body, the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants. In that context, I have been clear at all times that I am currently a partner in BDO Ireland and head of health care in that practice. I indicate openly and transparently on the HIQA website that I am one of the firm's health care consulting partners. I additionally outline on the HIQA website that I have been an adviser in the older person care sector for the past 17 years and that I edited the Nursing Homes Ireland annual nursing home survey. I further outline that I produced the report A Fair Price for Care - Ireland on behalf of Age Action Ireland. I also outline on the HIQA website that I worked as a care assistant in a UK older person dementia care home in the past. In addition, I outline that I have acted as financial adviser to primary care centres, acute care facilities and older person care centres throughout Ireland and that I have a broad range of health care sector experience from both a financial and operational perspective. In a sense of openness about my professional life, I believe I could not have made it more transparent that I am a financial adviser to the health care sector and in particular to nursing home operators. This comprises a significant portion of the professional work which I do and I have never tried to hide or deny that.

When I came before the Joint Committee on Health and Children as a new chair to present my credentials in 2013, I outlined then that I have specialised in the area of advisory services in health care. I went on to state that for the past ten years or more, I have provided financial, operational and strategic advisory services to acute, older person and primary care services throughout Ireland. In my annual declaration of interests to the Standards in Public Office Commission, I state my professional capacity within BDO. Finally, the BDO website states clearly that I negotiate rates for nursing homes with the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF, and work in health care advisory. It is clear that I advise nursing homes, hospitals and primary care centres. In 2015, I believe I spoke at six conferences on the topic of nursing homes, the financial implications impacting the sector, the fair deal as it impacts on nursing homes and the statistics of the industry. In the middle of 2015, BDO launched the nursing home survey, Ireland's most in-depth nursing home research publication, which analysed the financial performance of the sector. This was launched by the then Minister of State, Kathleen Lynch. At the time of launch, I spoke extensively to the press and media about the report and its findings.

I was invited by Tadhg Daly, the CEO of Nursing Homes Ireland, to attend an operator meeting in my professional capacity on 23 October 2015 to speak about the sector. I spoke about financial matters and answered questions that were asked of me based on my professional experience. I was there as an invited speaker and participated when invited by the meeting. I left the meeting before it concluded as my professional advisory input was no longer required. In that respect, I left prior to the attendees discussing next steps or actions. It was not unusual for me to speak at conferences relating to nursing homes as I had, by 2015, given a number of presentations to the pillar banks and a commercial conference provider for nursing home operators and at the formal launch of the nursing homes survey. This was the context in which I came to speak at the event on 23 October 2015. I accepted an invitation, was there as a financial expert and spoke about financial matters.

I would like to set out what I said at the meeting and to show that my contribution was based on advice for the sector in general. I am of the view that advice was entirely appropriate to the audience and was good advice for the sector in general. I outlined the following in answer to questions put to me after I was welcomed to the meeting by Tadhg Daly. I spoke about the finances of the industry and the fair deal scheme.

I spoke about the genesis of the scheme and the criteria the NTPF applies when agreeing rates with nursing homes. I also spoke about the financial impact of the NTPF reducing fair deal rates and about labour rate inflation and staffing shortages. In response to a question, I said that the NTPF acknowledged that nursing home costs were increasing. It often accepted that these costs were reasonable and prudently incurred and that it would like to be able to give a better fair deal rate but the budget simply was not there. I relayed to the meeting that the NTPF negotiators often stated to me and to operators during negotiations that it was important that there was a voice calling for an increased budget for the fair deal to back up its own requests. I outlined that the NTPF frequently stated to operators that the fair deal budget was reduced as a result of austerity and that increases in the fair deal rates to cover cost increases would not be forthcoming to any great extent until the fair deal budget increased.

In response to a question about the four criteria used to determine the fair deal rate, I outlined to the meeting that the NTPF, in meetings with me and my clients, recognised the criteria it uses are somewhat arbitrary and need to change. In response to a question about the first Deloitte report on the fair deal scheme, I stated that in my opinion it failed to recommend sufficient changes to the scheme’s methodology, changes which I believed the NTPF may have also wanted. In response to another question about the criteria for pricing care, I stated that the scheme lacked sophistication and outlined that as a financial adviser, I believed setting a rate for a home was wrong. I suggested that it would be much better to have a rate pertaining to the resident and their needs rather than to a building.

When responding to a question about the appeals process, I outlined to the meeting that my experience was that operators were better off not just accepting the rate offered by the NTPF off the bat and that engagement and challenge around their case was likely to be better than not negotiating. When asked about the need to provide more beds, I said I believed that different parts of Government were sending different signals to the sector. The EIIS scheme, for example, was extended to nursing homes to encourage new developments, but simultaneously fair deal rates were being cut, which was a contradictory message.

On a final question to me about the possible direction of travel, I suggested there should be engagement with the NTPF and good communication channels between providers and commissioners, that the cost of care should be a consideration and not just an arbitrary pricing mechanism, and that there should be some equality between providers with similar circumstances, that is, blatant inconsistencies in the scheme should be focused on and removed. I suggested an independent appeals process should be sought in future enhancements of the fair deal scheme and that operators should not be afraid of engaging in the appeals process, as I had found it useful in a number of instances. However, I suggested the appeals process can, if it goes the full way, take as long as nine months and this is too long. Beyond answering the questions posed to me, I did not contribute to discussions surrounding strategy. As the guest attendee, I left when the questions and answers session finished and before the attendees went on discuss follow-up actions.

On the board and governance, the role of the board of HIQA is to be the governing body of the authority. I am the non-executive chairperson of the authority’s board and I, or other board members, do not have operational involvement in the workings of the authority. I want to outline this to the committee for a few reasons. Section 42 of the Health Act states the chief inspector is accountable to the Oireachtas in his or her work. The chief inspector is not accountable to the board and so the board and I, as chair, do not have any remit over the regulation of nursing homes or other facilities regulated by HIQA. Legislatively, this is the case.

The board does not get involved in executive decision-making. The chief executive is the accountable person under section 24 of the Act and so, in operational matters, he is the person who runs the authority and has the responsibility and accountability. Operational matters are not brought to the board for decisions because that is not its role. The way HIQA is legally constituted means that I, as board chairperson, cannot, do not and would not intervene or even have information relating to HIQA inspections. I have, on one occasion, been asked to intervene personally by a nursing home operator who sought that a HIQA report would not be published on the HIQA website. I refused to intervene. In the follow-up correspondence, I was informed that the disappointed party intended to inform Oireachtas Members of my professional role. I say this as I wish to provide members with all of the relevant information regarding my role.

I welcome the opportunity to be present at this committee. There is no conflict of interest in providing nursing home owners with financial advice, including advice on negotiating with the NTPF, and being chairman of the regulatory authority. This is because of the unique way HIQA is legally constituted. Clearly this was established at the point of me being appointed to the role of Chairman from the very outset.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. McEnery. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald is the first speaker, with 20 minutes. Deputy Marc MacSharry is next, with 15 minutes. Deputies David Cullinane, Catherine Connolly, Catherine Murphy and Alan Farrell will follow in that order, and they all have ten minutes. We must be out of here before 1 p.m.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat. Can I presume that Mr. McEnery's statement is being published?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. McEnery agree to the committee publishing his statement?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I believe so, yes.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is custom and practice. The last time Mr. McEnery was before us, he was wearing his National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, hat. He is welcome here this morning. How long has he been the financial adviser to Nursing Homes Ireland?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I thank the Deputy for her question. I am not the financial adviser to Nursing Homes Ireland and have not been for many years - for more than ten years-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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More than ten years? I was reading all about Mr. McEnery and saw a report in the Irish Medical Times which said that he was a national adviser to Nursing Homes Ireland, I think since the 1990s, but that he has had no involvement with the representative organisation for the private and voluntary nursing home sector since being appointed HIQA chairman by the Minister for Health, now Senator James Reilly. That was confirmed by HIQA.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I have not acted as an adviser to Nursing Homes Ireland-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Why was Mr. McEnery at that meeting on 23 October 2015?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I was there as an invited guest in my professional capacity and was not there as an adviser to Nursing Homes Ireland.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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He was not there as an adviser but he was, according to his own statement, providing financial advice.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I was an invited guest there to talk about the finances of the sector. I did that, as I have outlined in my statement on a number of occasions.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We will come to that. Mr. McEnery's evidence to the committee today is that he is not the financial adviser to Nursing Homes Ireland.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Correct.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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However, he was invited to a meeting, he attended and he gave financial advice.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I spoke about the sector, the genesis of the fair deal scheme, and I spoke about-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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In his own words, in his own statement, he gave financial advice. He is dancing on the head of a pin. He was clearly acting in an advisory capacity to Nursing Homes Ireland.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I have not been retained by Nursing Homes Ireland for many years.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Was Mr. McEnery given a fee for attending the meeting in October 2015?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. McEnery went as a-----

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I went as an invited guest. I did not receive a fee.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. In Mr. McEnery's opening statement he makes no bones about the fact that he currently negotiates with the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF, on behalf of nursing homes. I went to his professional profile on BDO Ireland's website, and he does not actually say that at all. He refers to the fact that he did, in the past, carry out those types of negotiations but it is not made clear that he currently acts in that capacity.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

My profile on BDO Ireland's website, which I do not have in front of me, says that I am the head of health care for BDO Ireland. When I applied to the Public Appointments Service, I made it clear that I had that role and that experience and that was the work which I do.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Let me help Mr. McEnery because I have his profile from the BDO Ireland website here. It says that he undertakes a variety of assignments and "In 2009 and 2010 he worked with over 70 nursing homes preparing a cost model for each nursing home and negotiated rates with the National Treatment Purchase Fund". That is "negotiated" in the past tense. It makes no reference to the fact that he currently engages on behalf of nursing homes in direct negotiations with the NTPF.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I have made it very clear that is the work which I do. I outlined it to HIQA board at the very first meeting of that board which I attended in the capacity of chairman. I outlined the work which I do. I declared that to the HIQA board. The minutes of meetings of the board of HIQA are a public-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. McEnery provide the committee with those minutes?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

As far as I know they were submitted. This was the document from September 2013 in which I clearly outlined that I act as a representative and provide accounting business advisory services, often to health care facilities including nursing homes and hospitals.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Does it explicitly say that Mr. McEnery interfaces with the NTPF to negotiate prices for homes participating in the fair deal scheme?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I will just have a look.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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No, it does not.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I have not, in any way-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. McEnery.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

-----made it unclear that is the work I do.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I think it was rather unclear, but we have now established that it is Mr. McEnery's function to carry out these negotiations. In his opening statement he referred to the fact that he speaks at many conferences. I do not doubt that he does. The October meeting, however, was not a conference.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I was invited to speak.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We have established that, but it was not a conference.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

It was a meeting of operators as I understand it. I was not involved in organising the meeting.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Daly invited Mr. McEnery to the meeting and Mr. McEnery came along. Who was at the meeting in addition to operators?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I did not know all the people who were there. I knew a small portion of them. I believe nursing home operators and others were in attendance.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Who might they have been?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I believe there were lawyers and other staff from Nursing Homes Ireland in attendance.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What was the nature of the conversation? Mr. McEnery knows better than anyone that negotiations between individual nursing homes and the NTPF must happen on an individual basis. Is that not right?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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There is a very good reason for that, is there not?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

That is correct.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What is that reason?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

It relates to competition.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is in order to respect and obey competition law. Of course, that would absolutely rule out any collective actions which would influence price. Is that not right?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

It is to ensure that there are not collective actions around-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Price fixing.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes, exactly.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Exactly. Mr. McEnery has given us an account of what he said at this meeting and so on, which I will come to. Is it not the case that the meeting included discussions on the kind of influence which could be leveraged on the NTPF and the Minister in respect of the quantum of funding for the fair deal scheme and so on? Doe Mr. McEnery recall that?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I recall that there were discussions around that at the meeting. I did not partake. What I have outlined in my statement is exactly what I said at the meeting.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. McEnery recall discussions around increases in individual contributions to nursing homes from residents or their families?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I do recall some mention of that. I did not participate in discussions on that topic because I was not asked about it.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. McEnery accept that any move to act in a collective way or to use that type of leverage would fall foul of competition law?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I do, if there was a collective action. Interaction with the NTPF is on the basis of individual homes.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Was Mr. McEnery alarmed, astounded or worried when that type of conversation emerged around him?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

If I had been asked, I would not have supported that as a proposition. I do not believe that is the basis on which they should proceed. I believe it would be unwise.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It certainly would be. Would it not be very troubling if the chairman of the board of HIQA, the regulator for nursing homes, was in the middle of a conversation about suggestions or ideas in respect of such collective leveraging? That would be deeply disturbing, would it not?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I was not part of that discussion.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. McEnery says that he discussed and addressed financial matters.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

That is correct.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is he absolutely sure that is his recollection of the meeting?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I am.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. McEnery is aware that the Chairman has alluded to the fact that we are in receipt of the minutes of that meeting. We are not allowed to delve into the precise detail of them, but I have read them.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Sure.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is not my reading of his contribution to that meeting. Did he give what might be considered political advice or a political analysis of the situation?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Only as it would affect revenue streams under the fair deal scheme and the financial affairs of the nursing homes. That is what I believe-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Did he give a commentary on or an assessment of the NTPF and how it carries itself? Did he give any tactical advice as to how it should be approached?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I outlined how the NTPF works and the criteria which it uses in its interactions with nursing homes. The NTPF outlines these working to each and every nursing home itself in the first instance. I outlined the exact modus operandiof the NTPF. I did encourage nursing home owners to engage with the NTPF and for them to do so under that auspices of the provisions of the NTPF's role in negotiating care.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I assume that Mr. McEnery has seen the same minutes and memoranda of that meeting which members of this committee have seen.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I saw them for the first time when they were distributed by this committee last week.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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He will agree with me that the account which he has just given and that which he gave in his opening statement are at variance with those meetings.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

There are certain aspects of the minutes on which I have sought clarification because I believe there are inaccuracies.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I suggest to Mr. McEnery that there is a very troubling difference between the contemporaneous note of that meeting, which we have read, and his account which, reading this, comes across as a very sanitised version of what he said, if I can use that term without offending Mr. McEnery. Does Mr. McEnery accept that is the case?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

There are aspects of the minutes of that meeting, which as I have said I received for the first time last week, which I believe are wrong.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Those minutes were not circulated to Mr. McEnery after that meeting.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Daly did not send them to Mr. McEnery.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I had not seen them. I was not there as an attendee, I was there as a guest. I was there as a guest to speak on a particular matter. If I can explain-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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No, we have limited time. Mr. McEnery has made the point that he was a guest. That was his statement here.

Mr. McEnery also said that he was at the meeting but that he left it before any decisions were taken. Is he sure that is the case?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

The meeting was in session when I arrived and I was invited into the meeting room. I had travelled from the United Kingdom that morning. I was not present when the meeting commenced and I left before it concluded. Questions were posed to me and I tried to address them in my professional capacity. I then left the meeting before it was summarised and brought to a close.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Again, that is not what is reflected in the minutes of the meeting to which we all have access. The minutes do not suggest that Mr. McEnery arrived late to the meeting, that he was anything other than an active participant in it or that he left early for whatever reason.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I believe that the minutes inaccurately reflect that I was answering questions which were posed to me, which was the case. I did leave before the meeting concluded. On conclusion of the questions and answers session, and in particular the questions posed to me, I left the meeting. The meeting continued - I do not know for how long - but I was not there.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We are all aware of what is in the minutes and that is not what is reflected in them.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

The minutes do not appear to reflect when attendees were present or not, which is unhelpful.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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For the purposes of the record, it should be recorded that the minutes to which we are both referring were recorded by a legal person and signed off in that person's name. I am sure any suggestion that there are inaccuracies, whether by accident or design, would be greatly resented by the person who took the notes.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I believe there are some inaccuracies in the minutes and I will-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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How many nursing homes does Mr. McEnery represent?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I represent nursing homes in different capacities. For example, I represent some nursing homes in their interactions with the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF, and I represent others in securing bank finance. The services that we can provide differ. For some, it will be audit-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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On behalf of how many nursing homes does Mr. McEnery interact with the National Treatment Purchase Fund?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

In 2017, approximately 20 nursing homes.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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How can Mr. McEnery state that there is no conflict of interest in him providing nursing home owners with financial advice, including advice on negotiating with the NTPF and him being chairman of the regulatory authority?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I will explain. HIQA has no role in regard to the financial affairs of a nursing home. Because of this, I believe I do not have a conflict of interest. I advise on the financial affairs of nursing home businesses. In respect of the role-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. McEnery advise large groups of nursing homes, possibly newcomers to the market that might be in the business of acquiring small, private, traditional family-type operations?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I have done so once or twice in the past, but very seldom.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Has Mr. McEnery found himself in the position whereby he would be advising and providing a client with financial advice in regard to the acquisition of a nursing home that is in difficulty, perhaps because it has fallen foul of the new regulatory standards?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No, I do not think so. Is the Deputy asking if would I advise groups who might be seeking to-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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To acquire small operations, family-type businesses, that might have got into financial distress for whatever reason, including that they might not have been able to keep pace with the new regulations around standards and occupancy levels and so on.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

My office, BDO, has provided advice on what we call mergers and acquisitions in the sector.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Would some of that advice be given to, for instance, Seneca Healthcare?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No, we have not been acting for it, recently.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is Seneca Healthcare a client of BDO?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I have not done work on its behalf but I understand BDO has done so in the past.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. What about Letsbuyhealthcare?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I have never heard of it. I do not recognise the name.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Mr. McEnery does not see a conflict of interest in him, as the chairman of the regulatory board, individually providing financial advice to either a nursing home or more large corporate groups in the context of the apparatus of the fair deal scheme and the crash, during which time the nursing homes were under massive financial pressure, and to the big players that came into the market and acquired them. Am I correct that there is a lot of money to be made in the private nursing homes area?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

It is important to say that I made my role and my background and experience very clear, which is probably part of the reason it is-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. McEnery the only person from BDO on the board?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No, I am not.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Who is the other person?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

The other person is a colleague from BDO. He was not involved in BDO when appointed to the board of HIQA through the Public Appointments Service but he subsequently-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is he also an adviser to the healthcare sector?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Predominantly not but he does give some advice to it.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I presume he does not have a conflict of interest either.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No. The advice he gives is financial advice.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. McEnery. I am astonished at his persistence in decrying conflict of interest when it is obvious. The fact that he was at the October meeting - we can dispute what he said and why he said - crystalises and demonstrates without a shadow of a doubt his absolute conflict of interest. I do not believe that he should be the chairperson of the board of HIQA. In fact, I do not believe he should even be on the board.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Would Mr. McEnery like to respond?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I thank the Deputy. I am happy and have always been happy to put on the record, as I did at the HIQA meeting, how we will deal with conflicts of interest should they arise. I made that clear during the Public Appointments Service process and I have tried to ensure at every stage that it is clear that my professional role is financial adviser, including to the healthcare sector, of which nursing homes form a part, but that this does not conflict with my role of chairperson of HIQA because HIQA does not have a role in relation to financial affairs. The role of HIQA is in regard to other aspects, into which I do not have an input as board chairman.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all of the witnesses for being here today. My first question is to Ms Dunnion. In regard to her role as regulator and the board generally, in regard to the appointment of a chairman and the Public Appointments Service, does the board have an input into that process? For example, does the board ratify the appointment by Government or is its nomination just accepted?

Ms Mary Dunnion:

The Deputy's question is one for the CEO.

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

No, there is no role for the board in this regard.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The board accepts whoever comes through the Public Appointments Service?

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

Yes.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Is the board made aware of how many applied for the position?

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

No.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. McEnery appreciate that the role of this committee is to assess value for money for the punter, and in the context of HIQA, to ensure that care for the elderly or those requiring long-term care is appropriate? In terms of HIQA carrying out its functions, does Mr. McEnery accept that public confidence is paramount in this regard?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I agree with both of the Deputy's propositions.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. I am sorry for cutting Mr. McEnery off at times but my time is short and I mean no disrespect. Clearly, he is the go-to person in a number of these matters. If I were setting up a nursing home or negotiating a price or dealing with health related economics, I would look to him to help me. The fact that he declares what he undertakes to do in his business and in all his roles is admirable and transparent, but whether that is a conflict of interest is a completely different matter and I have substantial concerns. We have established from his engagement with Deputy McDonald that while having advised Nursing Homes Ireland in the past, he is not currently on record for it, to use a legal term. Is that correct?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Correct.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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However, Mr. McEnery attended this meeting by invitation. Was it as an after-dinner speaker?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No. It was early morning.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Was it do a turn for them having had advised in the past?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No. I believe that my firm produces probably the greatest amount of research in the round of a given year for this sector-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I get that and I am aware of the expertise

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I was there, as I go to many fora to try give that insight into the sector.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate the expertise is there. How did it occur? Did Mr. Tadhg Daly or somebody from Nursing Homes Ireland ring and say "Hello, Mr. McEnery. We are having a meeting on such an evening. Could you pop in and give us a bit of insight for free?" Is that what happened?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I am trying to recollect. I think I received a telephone call to say that there was an event and I was asked if I would come and present. It was not too long after we had published the nursing homes survey and it was also in the context of presenting some of the findings of that.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Is it correct, however, that Mr. McEnery was asked to provide financial advice?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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We have established that he does not think he is a financial adviser even though he-----

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I am not retained by Nursing Homes Ireland.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Does that mean that Mr. McEnery is not paid?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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He was not paid for that gig.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I am not retained by Nursing Homes Ireland in the round of any period.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The organisation invited Mr. McEnery along. If the Irish Countrywomen's Association, ICA, rang him up and said, "Would you come to an event and provide financial advice for free?", what would the answer be?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

As I have tried to outline, I think I spoke at six events that year. I will look back at my diary. I did not get paid for any of them.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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This was a private meeting, not a conference. Is the practice in BDO that if somebody looks for advice and time allows, Mr. McEnery will attend and give it for nothing.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

When I am speaking about the sector, whether it is to a bank and, indeed, in some instances a commercial conference organiser, I go and I do not get paid. I speak about the sector because we generate a great deal of research.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Has HIQA ever used BDO in any professional capacity?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It does not provide financial advice. Deputy McDonald asked about Mr. McEnery advising various bodies. Clearly, he is the go-to man for advising on any of these organisations. She mentioned Letsbuyhealthcare. Mr. McEnery said he never heard of it.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I do not recognise the name. I am sorry.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Has he heard of Mr. David Allen?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes, he was formerly involved. I think I only met the gentleman once. He was involved-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Is it correct that he was the director of finance for the National Treatment Purchase Fund?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

The Deputy is correct.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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So Mr. McEnery is familiar with him from negotiating on behalf of-----

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No. I never negotiated with Mr. David Allen.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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So was it some of his team who typically negotiated.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

They have three or four negotiators in different parts of the country.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Would the buck stop with Mr. Allen as finance director?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I do not know.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Is it reasonable that it might?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

The way I have interacted with the NTPF is we have been able to agree with the negotiators. They have a negotiating team and I have not met Mr. Allen in a professional capacity with the NTPF or any other capacity. I think I met him once at a conference.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Did Mr. McEnery advise professionally either personally or through BDO or did colleagues in BDO advise on the establishment of the Letsbuyhealthcare scheme?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I do not know but I did not. I am sorry.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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But Mr. McEnery is the head of health care.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

It certainly did not come across my desk.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. McEnery check that for the committee?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I will. I apologise to the committee. I do not know the name and I do not know that my firm was involved but I will absolutely revert on that matter.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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How many clients has Mr. McEnery represented, or does he currently represent, in negotiations with the HSE?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

With the NTPF?

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The HSE or the NTPF or both.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

The committee knows a great deal about the NTPF. It is the body that is mandated to negotiate. The budgetholder is the HSE.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that. The HSE is one outfit, then there is the NTPF and many agencies within the HSE that might be awarding contracts. How many does Mr. McEnery actively negotiate with?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

As I mentioned to Deputy McDonald, I represented approximately 20. I do not think it is any more than 20. I have represented many operators since the fair deal scheme was introduced in 2009.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

October 2009

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Does BDO as an accountancy firm have a code of conduct in respect of partners serving on external organisations and engaging in other work?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Every professional who becomes a member of a professional body has to abide by our own professional code of ethics.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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If I was a client of BDO, would Mr. McEnery's spouse be permitted under its code of conduct to work for me?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Possibly, but not if it was an audit. If my wife was, for instance, a director or was involved in the management and control of the Deputy's company and it was taxation, the answer would be no.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It is not a legal question, however. It is a question of protecting the integrity of the positive perception of both the client and firm.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

The overall governing body for all accountants worldwide is the International Federation of Accountants, IFAC, and it publishes the provisions around which audit has to be an independent function. General business advisory is no problem, but in respect of audit, which is a statutory function, there are safeguards.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. McEnery accept such safeguards are in place to protect the good reputation, standing and perception of his business and his clients?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. McEnery concurred when I mentioned at the beginning of my contribution that one of the most important currencies for organisations such as HIQA is public confidence.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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While he has been transparent about all he does, I query whether the fact that he has said this absolves the potential for a conflict of interest. In any event, because public confidence is such an important issue and because he negotiates on behalf of one side and is the chairman for the other side, the complexion is grubby and is one where the gamekeeper is acting as an adviser to the poacher, for want of a better expression.

Does Mr. McEnery not believe, given his professional experience, as one of the foremost experts in these matters, that it would be in the public interest that he should step aside from being chairperson of HIQA to preserve the good standing and integrity of that organisation?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I would like to try to explain this for two very important reasons and I am glad of the opportunity to do so.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I have very limited time.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

There are two very important reasons: HIQA has no role in the financial affairs of nursing homes and there is a complete firewall around the regulation of nursing homes. HIQA regulates nursing homes in respect of inspection and regulation and the board, and I as chairman, cannot and do not and would not have anything to do with that aspect. I believe that I came through the public appointments process on the basis that I had sectoral experience as a care assistant and as an adviser.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. McEnery should reflect on his position, notwithstanding, and not undermining, his own experience and expertise. The nature of the organisation, its importance and the right of the public to have absolute confidence in that organisation is not helped by the proximity he has to so many other matters. I ask that he come back to us about the former director of finance with the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF, David Allen, who I understand anecdotally is involved in the establishment of Letsbuyhealthcare, and say whether Mr. McEnery or his team have been advisers in its establishment. It creates the complexion for me, and I imagine for the public, that the chairman of the gamekeepers is involved in advising the poachers.

Would Ms Dunnion be comfortable, notwithstanding that, as I have put on record, Mr. McEnery has expertise and is probably the foremost expert in that field available in Ireland, and given the public confidence currency that is involved in HIQA, with a chairman of the board who is involved in so many other aspects of the industry which her organisation regulates?

Ms Mary Dunnion:

I am totally confident in the arrangements that the office of the chief inspector has within HIQA in the regulation of designated centres for older people and disability. The chairman of the board of HIQA is appointed by the Minister, as are the board members. We recognise in the conflict of interest area that people have a professional life outside their board membership. That is widely publicised and acknowledged. I can say unequivocally that at no time has the chairman or a member of the board of HIQA in any way asked or questioned me or influenced any decisions. In that context I have absolutely no experience where there would be a conflict of interest.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Can Ms Dunnion appreciate that it might look grubby from the perspective of public perception?

Ms Mary Dunnion:

I can appreciate that I would be much happier to be here today talking about the regulation of residential services, the vulnerability of people and the opportunity the Deputies have to move the regulatory forum forward. I would be happier to be in that position today.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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That would be a different committee where I am sure there will be plenty of opportunities to do that.

Does Ms Dunnion appreciate why we are asking these questions?

Ms Mary Dunnion:

I can understand that perception is very important but the reality of where I work, and of my position, is that in no way has the chairman of the board influenced, asked about or questioned any of the decisions we make in that context. That is enshrined in the legislation and the scheme of determination through the inspectorate, to which everyone has to sign up and agree. The controls are there within the legislative framework, the Health Act 2007.

The reporting relationship is to the Oireachtas and the only relationship I have to the board of HIQA is as an assurance to the board in its function working for HIQA.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Were Mr. Quinn advising on the recruitment of a chairman of the board for an organisation like HIQA, would he think it wise or ill-advised to appoint somebody who was a negotiator for the prices of the care the regulation of which he is responsible for?

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

Going back to Deputy MacSharry's first question about the role of an executive, and particularly chief executive, in the appointment of non-executive members I would never be either consulted or involved in that. That is an appointments process.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I know Mr. Quinn is not.

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

I appreciate that but I would have to say that during the past three years of my tenure as chief executive officer, CEO, I have been determined that whoever sits on the board of HIQA does not interfere in its executive functions. The public confidence issue is, as Ms Dunnion has pointed out, that we have very clear controls that divide the role and function of the non-executive from the executive. I appreciate that we are here talking about these perceptions today but we also need to convey the facts and they are, as Ms Dunnion pointed out today, that we have very clear controls within HIQA and the public should have confidence in the role that HIQA plays in its regulation of designated centres for older persons.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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That was not what I asked. Does Mr. Quinn think it looks grubby or not?

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

Mr. McEnery was appointed to the role of chairman of the board of HIQA with all of his credentials and we have been aware of that. I appreciate that we are talking here about the perception.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Quinn appreciate that, as a chairman and even a board member, occasionally information may be discussed that endows a competitive advantage on Mr. McEnery and his colleague with BDO in marketing their services elsewhere?

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

Absolutely not.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I am moving to Deputy Cullinane but first I have two questions. Did Mr. McEnery make a formal presentation to the event?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Did he ad lib?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Questions were put to me and I did not make a presentation maybe because I had been travelling back from overseas.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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In his opening statement he has listed 18 points that he was asked about and to which he replied. He must have an extraordinary power of recollection that he was able to put such a good report together at this remove in time when he had made no presentation.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I have been advising in the health care sector for over 20 years and I know exactly the context. It was about the finance. I do not advise in any other aspect of health care. I do not know enough for instance about regulation. I advise on financial matters so I know what I discussed.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. McEnery outlined the questions and his answers in his opening statement. When did he put this note together as part of his opening statement? When did he start putting this information together?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Since the invitation to-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Within the past week.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The meeting was held in 2015, two years ago. Mr. McEnery has had no contact with this issue, no formal presentation, no notes, just a date in his diary. It is an outstanding summary of an event two years, if Mr. McEnery has not revisited the matter in two years.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I have not revisited the matter and I do not think I have not spoken at any events with Nursing Homes Ireland since. I remember vividly the circumstances. I know, for instance, that I travelled back from the UK that morning.

I know that I was not at the meeting when the meeting commenced. I know that I was not there at the end when it finished, and I know the content of what I what I spoke about. I spoke in great predominance about the fair deal scheme.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If the meeting was approximately three hours, for how long was Mr. McEnery there?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I was not there for three hours. I was certainly there for over two hours, I would say.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The majority.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes, I was there for the majority.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. McEnery missed the beginning and end.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Exactly.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have to ask Mr. McEnery a straight question in the understanding he had no fee or anything. Did he meet any growing clients? He said in his opening statement he did not recognise some of the people there. I take that to mean he did recognise some of them.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I did recognise-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As clients?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes, some of them were clients.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did he get any new clients as a result of it?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I do not think so.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a general question.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

There were a number of people I did not know and whom I had not met before.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. McEnery’s opening statement is an extraordinarily tight and well-scripted one. If he is able to do that after two years with no notes from the meeting, he has an extraordinary memory.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Obviously, I did not have the minutes until they were circulated, from this committee.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Mr. McEnery use those notes-----

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----as an aide-mémoire?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

When I looked down through those minutes, I noted there were certain points in them that I would take issue with. There are certain points, and I have asked for some advice around those.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. McEnery has made that point that two or three times now. To complete this particular circle, with whom is he taking it up?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I have asked for legal advice from my own firm in the first instance.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With Nursing Homes Ireland, would Mr. McEnery have to-----

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I have to await that.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So Mr. McEnery is taking legal advice.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I am, for the simple reason that I think there are accuracies, particularly in one respect.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

May I just ask a final question? Mr. McEnery is chairman of HIQA, which is involved in this sector. The National Treatment Purchase Fund is involved financially in the sector. Would it be feasible for Mr. McEnery, or anybody from his firm, to be a member of the board of the National Treatment Purchase Fund?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No. Not me anyway, I can assure the Chairman. If I were, I would have an absolute conflict of interest. I am a financial adviser and that deals with the finances of the sector. Yes, there would be a-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I was about to ask Mr. McEnery to send me a copy of his presentation but he tells me he does not have one.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I did not present through a presentation.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Deputy Cullinane. We are down to ten-minute slots each now.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Since we are down to ten-minute slots, I will be very distinct and clear in my questions. I am sure the witness will be equally clear and distinct in his responses.

Mr. McEnery said already – I will not rehearse it all – that he was not at the meeting as a paid adviser. Is that correct?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

That is correct.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But he did give advice.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I spoke about the sector.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please do not dance on the head of a pin. Mr. McEnery was certainly there as an unpaid adviser because he was obviously brought in to give advice. He was not invited to sit there. He was there to contribute to the meeting and give an opinion and advice. Is that fair to say?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I was invited to talk about the fair deal scheme. It was also to talk about some of the research work we had just finished in-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will get to all of that in a second. I have media reports on what happened at the meeting. I can only stick to those because we cannot deal with the actual notes that have been presented to the committee, although Mr. McEnery says he is seeking legal advice and is uncomfortable with some of the content, which also troubles me. I will stick to the newspaper reports. My point is that they certainly seem to suggest that Mr. McEnery gave advice. I will walk Mr. McEnery though all of that in one second. Is Mr. McEnery still holding to the view that he did not give any advice whatsoever to the nursing home providers?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I outlined my understanding of the fair deal scheme. My understanding-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not the question I asked. I asked for distinct answers. Either Mr. McEnery gave advice or he did not. Did he give advice?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I believe that what I did was that I outlined. I gave a summary of how the scheme worked.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did he give advice?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I believe it was my experience that I gave. I gave the content of my professional experience of dealing with the National Treatment Purchase Fund and other aspects – for instance, labour, labour rates and labour shortages. I gave what is my experience from being-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have listened to Mr. McEnery now for 30 seconds and he still has not answered the question. Can I take it from his response that he did not give advice?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I outlined my experience around the issues that were being discussed.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You are not answering the question again.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

It is the most-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Listen, when I ask a straight question-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Through the Chair

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----I deserve a response. Either Mr. McEnery gave advice or he did not. If he says he did not give advice, he should say it. If he did, he should say it. It is one or the other; it cannot be in the middle. He either gave advice or he did not. He should please answer the question as put to him.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I am trying to answer it as accurately as I can.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is not. He is bluffing, with respect. I am asking him to answer the question as to whether he gave advice or not. It is a very straight question. It is very obvious to anybody in a meeting. If one gives advice to an organisation, one gives advice. If one does not, one does not. Either he gave advice or he did not.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I answered questions around my experience of dealing with the financial aspects of the fair deal scheme.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is not going to answer the question. I will come back to that in one second.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

It is-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is not answering the question, with respect. He is answering it in a way he wants to answer it but he is not actually answering the question that is being put.

Let me go back to the point the Chairman made, on Mr. McEnery’s very clear and precise understanding of what happened at the meeting and his account of it. It happened two years ago.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Two years ago approximately.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. McEnery is a very busy person because he wears multiple hats. He was here in the past as an executive member, a board member, of NAMA.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Non-executive.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is Mr. McEnery still a non-executive member?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I am.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is also chairman of HIQA.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Correct.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is a partner in the company BDO. Therefore, he wears multiple hats. He goes to many meetings. I would imagine his life is full of meetings-----

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I go to-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and events. He mentioned seminars and all sorts of different events. It would be amazing if he had such a forensic understanding of everything that happened at every meeting. Does he have any contemporaneous notes of the meeting that took place two years ago?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No. I know what I was asked to speak about, which was-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have that. He said he has no contemporaneous notes, yet, as the Chairman has pointed out, he has a very clear, precise understanding of what happened. Can I put it to him his very clear and precise understanding is based on the notes of the meeting that he now disputes, or that he is essentially reacting to those notes?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No, it is not. It is based on my recollection on what I said at the meeting and the answers to the questions that were posed to me. It was around the issues I have outlined in my statement.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is amazing that Mr. McEnery's opening statement from a meeting that took place two years ago is so clear and so precise given that there are no contemporaneous notes whatsoever. The statement goes into very clear detail of exactly what was said and Mr. McEnery's role, which are actually contradicted in the media reports. I will proceed to them now, and perhaps we will tease some of this out. I am looking at two different media reports, both of which were covered in the Irish Independent, one on 8 October and one on 18 October. The first says the chairman of HIQA, Mr. McEnery, attended a confidential meeting of private nursing home operators at which a boycott of the fair deal scheme was mooted. Does he dispute that there was any talk of a boycott of the scheme at the meeting?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

The word was used at the meeting.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The word "boycott" was used at the meeting. Mr. McEnery is the chairman of HIQA and he does not see any difficulty with that. In fact, he stayed at the meeting. I am referring to the reports on the meeting. It astounds me that Mr. McEnery would stay at the meeting when the possibility of a boycott was put on the table.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I can assure the Deputy that I was not in any way associated with that word, comment or sentiment.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The media reports, of 8 October and 18 October, state Mr. McEnery made a contribution in which he talked about agreeing a cost of care, equal treatment of the same and similar nursing homes and that there was immediate intervention, following his contribution, from legal advisers, who said there was a very serious danger of discussing anti-competitive behaviour. Therefore, they were directly responding to a contribution Mr. McEnery made. That is an account of what is in the media.

That, obviously, would be very troubling for me and, I imagine, very troubling for Mr. McEnery. If he has read those media reports and also the notes that we cannot discuss here - and they say very similar things and chime very much with what is in the media reports - that would be very concerning. It would be very concerning if the media accounts were true and if Mr. McEnery did in fact say these things. That would amount to advocating anti-competitive practices, would it not?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I absolutely and emphatically say I did not advocate anything that would be anti-competitive. What I have in fact said is what I have outlined in my opening statement, that is, that I have at all times indicated that engagement with the National Treatment Purchase Fund can take three forms. It can take the form of an initial meeting, and the National Treatment Purchase Fund will give an offered price; one can negotiate with the National Treatment Purchase Fund; and then there is the possibility of an appeals process. That is exactly what I suggested.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The media reports also say that Mr. McEnery said at the meeting that the National Treatment Purchase Fund, when threatened, can back down. Did he say that?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No, I did not, and that is the issue I have around-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is the issue to which Mr. McEnery takes exception then.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I did not use those words and I would not-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The media reports say that Mr. McEnery was talking about an agreed cost of care and uniformity in respect of the price that would be paid to the individual nursing homes. He does not dispute that part of it.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy has two minutes remaining.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

If I may explain to the Deputy, I absolutely did not use the word "threatened" and I would not do so. There is not really a basis to threaten the National Treatment Purchase Fund, quite frankly, and I did not use that term. Secondly, I produced a model around cost of care which gives the components of how a cost of care is calculated. That is what I alluded to - a model around not saying that here is a price-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have to stop Mr. McEnery there because that is not what the media reports say was said at the meeting. Unfortunately, we do not have time to go into it all and we have to wait until we get legal opinion as to whether we can actually discuss a note which clearly contradicts almost everything that was in Mr. McEnery's opening statement, but we will just park that for one second. Is Mr. McEnery aware that there is now an examination by the competition watchdog in respect of some of this as well? Is he aware that it has commissioned an investigation?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I saw that on the news on RTE very late last night.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That would obviously be concerning to Mr. McEnery. It would be very concerning to me. May I now put questions to Mr. Quinn, Ms Dunnion, Mr. Redmond and Mr. Keating?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One minute, Deputy, because we-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand that. I have just one question for them. Are all of the other witnesses members or representatives of HIQA?

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

The two employees of HIQA are me as chief executive officer and Mary Dunnion as director of regulation and chief inspector.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am absolutely astounded, obviously, by what I have heard from Mr. McEnery. I am equally astounded that both Ms Dunnion and Mr. Quinn can still sit there today and have confidence in Mr. McEnery and that they do not see any difficulty. I agree with the previous speakers. In my view, without question, Mr. McEnery should stand down as chair of HIQA, without prejudice, pending the outcome of an examination and an investigation which is ongoing and pending the very serious questions and concerns that I and other members have. Mr. McEnery can account for himself. If I were him, I would offer my resignation before close of business today, but Ms Dunnion and Mr. Quinn have a duty and the organisation has a duty to protect itself. I am absolutely astounded that HIQA has taken the course of action it has taken and I do not think it will end well for the organisation. Everything we have seen here is very troubling and very alarming, Mr. McEnery's opening statement is very troubling and alarming to me and his responses are troubling. If they are troubling to me, I cannot for the life of me understand how they do not cause the same alarm bells to go off in Mr. Quinn's head and Ms Dunnion's head. I ask them to respond to that.

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

Again, the appointment of the non-executive chair and the members of the board are not a matter for the executive of the authority. Their removal-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am asking Mr. Quinn whether he has a concern about everything he has heard so far.

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

I would have a concern that there should be any interference from a non-executive in the reputation and the business of the authority, whether that be under section 8, concerning functions of the authority, or section 42, concerning sections of the authority. That is in health care and-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

However, notwithstanding how somebody is appointed, is there a facility in an organisation like HIQA, when issues like this emerge, for people to say that red flags have been raised and need to be dealt with? Is there any mechanism in place within the organisation to deal with this, where if Mr. McEnery is not prepared to take the decision himself, individuals within HIQA can decide that, in the best interests of the organisation, Mr. McEnery should, without prejudice, step aside from his position? Is Mr. Quinn telling me that is not possible?

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

What I can say to the Deputy is that I genuinely do not believe it is possible for the executive to take that decision. I believe there is a non-executive-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could Mr. Quinn advise?

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

There is also a non-executive board of ten members, which is inclusive-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has it met to discuss this issue?

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

No, it has not met to discuss the issue.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Should it meet to discuss the issue?

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

I imagine that it will discuss the issue in the very near future.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Quinn imagines it will do so.

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

Yes.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that just something in his head or does he have any concrete-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy is out of time.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----view of the matter? Has he been informed that the non-executive board will meet?

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

I certainly have talked to Mr. McEnery about the potential for that meeting because of the issues that have been discussed here today.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would it be possible for Mr. McEnery's position to be discussed at that meeting?

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

I imagine Mr. McEnery will discuss the circumstances and, obviously, his position in this instance.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Mr. McEnery want to add something to that?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Absolutely, if I may. I have at all times informed the Oireachtas committee, the Public Appointments Service and indeed the board of exactly the work that I do. It is financial; it does not interfere with the work of HIQA - absolutely not.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

May I be very clear on one question to Mr. McEnery, following on directly from that? He has indicated that as chairman of the board this issue - his appearance here today and the issues surrounding it - will be discussed at the board.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can we take it that Mr. McEnery will recuse himself from that meeting or that section of the meeting?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think according to HIQA's rules of governance that the vice chair will chair such a meeting and that Mr. McEnery personally will not chair the meeting discussing this.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I absolutely think-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. McEnery gets the point I am making.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I do, and I-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is important if there will be a discussion of his situation. I am just being pragmatic about HIQA's own rules of governance, specifically that where there is a potential conflict of interest-----

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Absolutely.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----the vice chair is asked to chair the meeting or whatever. Is that the procedure it will follow?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The next speaker is Deputy Catherine Connolly, who has ten minutes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Welcome back, Mr. McEnery, Mr. Quinn and Ms Dunnion. It is quite unfortunate that we are here discussing conflicts of interest, which seem to take up an extraordinary amount of our time, not withstanding all the codes of governance and ethics. It is truly shocking the amount of time they have taken up. I am a little confused about an event - a meeting - and its purpose. If I am wrong, Mr. McEnery can correct me. He went to a meeting on an invitation through a phone call from Mr. Tadhg Daly. Is that correct?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Daly phoned Mr. McEnery.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes, I believe the first communication was a phone call.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was there a second communication?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I believe an email was sent to me formally inviting me to speak.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. McEnery have that email with him?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What did that email say?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

It was addressed to BDO. It was in my capacity-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. McEnery have a copy of the email with him?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No, I do not, but-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What did it say?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

It said, "We are inviting you to speak at an event as a financial adviser to the sector." I do not know the wording verbatim.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is okay. I am not going to hold Mr. McEnery to the wording verbatim. However, he uses the word "event". Is he sticking with that? He was invited to an event and he will have an email to show us that.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I am sure that I received an email which was an invitation to speak at the event.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To "an event". What was the title of the event?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I think it was referred to as a consultation event or consultation meeting. I believe it was one or the other.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This meeting was two years ago, and the Chairman has already pointed out that Mr. McEnery has given a detailed recollection. Now he is changing from an event to a meeting. What was the purpose of his attending this meeting?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

It was to speak about the fair deal scheme in my professional experience and in a professional capacity. That is exactly what the purpose-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that set out somewhere in an email?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

That was exactly the invitation to me: it was to speak.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. McEnery have a copy of that email somewhere?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I do not have it with me.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

However, it is somewhere, is it?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Great. It would be very helpful to have that. There is another thing that would be very helpful. Was Mr. McEnery told about confidentiality when he went into the meeting?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I joined the meeting and Eversheds solicitors spoke about-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will stop Mr. McEnery there because as Chairman I have ruled that there will be no reference to the document produced by the adviser because of legal privileges on it.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am just referring to it if that is okay.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please proceed without reference to the document or the name of the legal adviser.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

My apologies. Could Deputy Connolly please repeat the question so I can fully understand her?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. McEnery went along to that meeting.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The witness told us he was late and that he left early. When he went along to that meeting did they say that he was very welcome or that it was a private or confidential meeting? What was Mr. McEnery told?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I went to the meeting. I was not scheduled to join the meeting from the start-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has the witness heard my question? When he joined the meeting he was not scheduled-----

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I beg your pardon now. Mr. McEnery was not scheduled to join the meeting?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I believe the meeting was scheduled to commence before I joined it. I was invited in to the meeting. If I can explain it to the Deputy, the attendees were in situ.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understood that Mr. McEnery was late or was returning-----

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I had come from the UK but I believe that my invitation was for after the other attendees were already in situ.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would really like to get to the basis of my questions. I cannot-----

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Sorry.

Deputy Catherine Connolly: Mr. McEnery has total recollection of what he said but his recollection around being late and why-----

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I was not late. I was on time, I came from the UK and the allotted time for me to join the meeting was after the meeting was scheduled to commence.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What time was that?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I believe the invitation to the attendees was for 9.30 a.m. and I joined at around 10.15 a.m.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What time did the witness leave the meeting?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I left shortly after 12 noon.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has he any contemporaneous notes of that meeting?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No one came back to him - Mr. Daly or anyone in relation to-----

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I never received, until I saw them last week, from circulation here. Because I was not an attendee, I was a guest.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He was a guest. Has Mr. McEnery any difficulty in that regard? He has seen the minutes of this famous meeting that is privileged.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I have seen the minutes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has he any difficulty with those minutes?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He has. He said one specific item.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

In particular I have a difficulty with certain words that are used inside in the-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was it about the term they always back down?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I believe I absolutely would not use the word "threaten" with regard to the National Treatment Purchase Fund. I know exactly what I said which is that there is an appeals process that goes from-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, no, sorry. Mr. McEnery believes he was brought in late, he believes he was brought in as a guest and he believes he was brought in to advise on financial affairs. Is that right?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I was invited to speak on the fair deal scheme and-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. McEnery has an email somewhere in relation to this that he is going to produce-----

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I will.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is very good. Was Mr. McEnery attending that meeting in a philanthropic capacity?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I believe that I have outlined for the Deputy that I speak at a lot of-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was the witness there in a philanthropic capacity?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I was unpaid, yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Unpaid. There was nothing to get out of it or nothing to gain from it.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I am an adviser in the sector and I give-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can Mr. McEnery tell us what he hoped to get out of that meeting?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I hoped to disseminate the information that we had just produced in the Nursing Homes Ireland survey.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was that recorded somewhere within the minutes Mr. McEnery has read of this famous meeting?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Pardon?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it recorded in the minutes - as read by the witness - that he was at the meeting relating to that survey?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

If I can outline to the Deputy, when I spoke about my experiences, about the finances of the sector- for example when I referred to the labour costs - they are items we would have assessed in the Nursing Homes Ireland survey.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When Mr. McEnery read the minutes of the famous meeting that is privileged and confidential did he see that he had referred to his research and that this was the reason he was there?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes when I talked about the finances in the sector because they are the most up-to-date-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Mr. McEnery see it recorded in the minutes that Mr. McEnery was at the meeting and talking about the research his company-----

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He did not see that recorded. Okay. How many other meetings has Mr. McEnery attended that are similar to the meeting he attended on that day?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

In 2015 I believe that I spoke at six forums, which were unpaid, where I spoke about the finances of the nursing home sector.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has Mr. McEnery attended meetings organised by Nursing Homes Ireland?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Pardon?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has the witness attended meetings organised by Nursing Homes Ireland?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I believe that was the only one in recent times.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. What does Mr. McEnery understand his role to be as chairman of HIQA?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

My role is a non-executive role and it is to chair the board of the authority.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has the board met since this issue became public in the newspapers?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why has it not?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

It has not met but we will be meeting.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why has the board not met since this very serious issue was reported in the papers - whether it is correct or incorrect, we do not know? Mr. McEnery accepts that it is very serious and why has a board meeting not been called?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

A board meeting will be called and there is one scheduled for this day week.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My question was why a board meeting has not been called.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

It just has not, that is-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Leaving himself out of it did no board member believe that this was sufficiently serious to call an emergency meeting?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No. Okay. Did Mr. McEnery declare at any board meeting that he attended this meeting?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No I did not but I declared-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask that Mr. McEnery listens to my questions. Did he declare that he had attended this meeting at any of the board meetings?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the reason for this that the witness did not see a conflict of interest?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Exactly.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The witness made that very clear and I accept that he made it clear when he attended his first meeting, for which we have the minutes. Did any board member question Mr. McEnery on what he declared on that date? It is recorded on page 2, under conflict of interests. No one seems to have done so. They thanked Mr. McEnery for his openness. They thanked the chairperson for the declaration. Was there ever any discussion of how that conflict of interest might materialise or how the board might handle it?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I gave a full account-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Listen to me-----

Mr. Brian McEnery:

There was -----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where is that recorded?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

It is recorded-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

-----that the following measures were discussed with the deputy chairperson and the CEO, that the chairperson would absent himself from any discussion of the matter, the deputy chairperson will chair any such instances should they arise, and other personnel within BDO would be allocated responsibility for the client.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I see that. Did this ever happen at any subsequent board meeting?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

At one.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Which one?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

At a recent meeting in July I saw an item that was for information from the chief executive. It was in his report. He was reporting on an item that had happened and I saw a reference to a client of BDO, which I recognised; I declared it. I told the deputy chairperson that should the matter come up for discussion that I would recuse myself and I asked her to chair the meeting if that happened.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Alright.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I should explain that the matter did not come up for discussion and therefore I did not recuse myself. It did not come up. It was a matter that was in the chief executive's report for information. I did declare it and I asked the deputy chairperson to step in should it come up.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to go back to the minutes that are privileged. Has Mr. McEnery any difficulty in publishing those minutes subject to what he is saying is incorrect? Has he any difficulty in waiving his privilege in relation to those minutes? He was there.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I certainly have an issue with some of the content inside in the minutes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

From all of the questions that have been asked so far I understand that the witness had one difficulty just.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I have one in particular. I believe that it would have been helpful if there had been a sequence of when I joined the meeting and when I left the meeting. That would have been useful. It would have been useful for me. Quite frankly, there are aspects-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is more than one difficulty.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I think the minutes are not what I would normally consider to be-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. I accept that. It does not accurately reflect Mr. McEnery's participation, would that be correct?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I can absolutely and emphatically say to the Deputy that I did not use the word, and I would not use the word.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Listen. That has already been discussed.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

It does not accurately reflect.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. McEnery have a difficulty in publishing the minutes or a difficulty in waiving his privilege on them?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I do not know if I have.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. McEnery might reflect on that.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would Mr. McEnery have a role in that matter?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I do not think I have the power. I do not know.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But does Mr. McEnery have an issue with it?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I do not know actually if I have.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is my difficulty. Mr. McEnery is the chairman of HIQA.

I do not want to put him in a spot when it comes to privilege but this is something that he must reflect on. It is possible that he does not have a role in it because he is an invited guest. He is, however, the head of HIQA and he attended a meeting. According to him the subsequent minutes are inaccurate. The criteria for his attendance are not clear and he cannot quite remember whether they came in the form of an email or not. Looking back now in his capacity as chairman of HIQA, does he think it appropriate that he attended a meeting for which he did not see the minutes until two years later?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I believe that I have always acted in the most-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Mr. McEnery hear my question?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I did.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Good. Will he answer my question?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I have the most forthright explanation for my role.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Looking back at that meeting and given how the minutes were written and privilege managed and so on, does Mr. McEnery think, on reflection, that it was an appropriate role for him as chair of HIQA?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I was a guest. I had no control over how the minutes were taken. I was not an attendee and I was not at the event in an organising capacity. I was a guest there; I spoke; and I left.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Other members here have already brought up the issue of the minutes. I have asked Mr. McEnery what difficulties he had with the minutes and those difficulties were limited to specific words that were or were not said. Would it have been wrong had he been down as an attendee at that meeting?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I was a guest.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Mr. McEnery listen to my question? Would it have been incorrect had he been down as an attendee?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

It would be fair to say that I was an attendee for most of the meeting but not all of it.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. McEnery was a guest; he was an attendee; he does not know. My final question concerns Mr. McEnery's role as chairman of HIQA. This position involves a leadership role, does it not?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

It does.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The role requires Mr. McEnery to manage key relationships with the Minister for Health; to judge and evaluate the performance of the CEO; and to manage relationships with key external parties. Who are these parties?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

The key external parties obviously include the Houses of the Oireachtas, which is why I appear before you today.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF, one of those external parties?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No, there is no interaction there.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the NTPF one of those external parties?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We still have two speakers to get in here and the Voting plan is coming up shortly.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I can tell the Chairman that this is a very important matter. It is important for the committee to know that there is no mandate for the chairman of HIQA to interact with the NTPF.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputies Murphy and Farrell have indicated. We have to be gone by 1 o'clock so they probably will not both be called before then.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Our time is very tight so I will ask some quick questions. There was a slight deviation in what Mr. Quinn said from what is written on page 2 of the short version of the second report, which states that HIQA had received correspondence from a private nursing home provider. Speaking before us here today, Mr. Quinn said that he had made some of the correspondence available. According to the document, however, all of the correspondence was made available.

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

I appreciate the point raised by the Deputy. As I was reading this I was conscious of the fact that, in order to be absolutely accurate, we received correspondence from this particular provider in respect of regulatory activity. This is just for the purposes of accuracy.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The use of word "some" is correct then.

Mr. Phelim Quinn:

The relevant correspondence has been forwarded to the committee.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In his opening statement, Mr. McEnery said that he presented his credentials to the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health. These procedures are not always followed to the letter. Sometimes people are appointed and then go before the committee. Sometimes they go before the committee and are then appointed. Can Mr. McEnery recall which was true in his case?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I can. I went through the Public Appointments Service, PAS, and then I came before the committee to outline my background and my experience.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was it after that that Mr. McEnery was appointed by the Minister?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No. I had been appointed by the Minister and then I came before the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The matter was moot when it was brought before the committee because the appointment had already been made.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

The appointment had been made.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I just wanted to establish that. Based on recent figures, a significantly growing number of nursing home beds are provided by the private sector. We heavily rely, then, on regulation and on the need for that regulation to be independent. Is that correct?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

That is correct.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There needs to be a competitive tension there to make sure matters like value for money are achieved. Does Mr. McEnery accept that?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I do.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

HIQA has a role in setting standards. Some of those standards cost money: residents getting individual rooms, for example, as opposed to two, three or four sharing a room. By virtue of driving up standards then, HIQA also has a role then in actually driving up costs. Does Mr. McEnery accept that is the case?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

HIQA does have a financial role then.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I will explain this to the committee because it is important. Standards are not a matter for the board of HIQA. We have no input into the devising of standards. This is a matter for the executive of HIQA. Board members have no input when it comes, for example, to whether there should be three, four, or two residents to a room.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In his professional capacity, however, Mr. McEnery must take this into consideration when he is advising nursing home providers on the matter of increased costs into the future.

Mr. Brian McEnery:

Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He has also indicated that the amount of money available is limited because budgets were cut a few years ago, so that is something he would have taken into consideration. In the event of Mr. McEnery going along to the conference in question here, or to the meeting or session or whatever it was, would it be fair to say that people at that event might feel that they had somebody there with an inside role, whether perceived or real? Does Mr. McEnery think that perception could arise among the people in attendance that he spoke to, advising them of inflation in wages, which there is of course, or on a whole range of other matters that he listed out in his opening statement? Would somebody sitting in the audience not think that they should go to Mr. McEnery because he is the one to give them advice, because he is on their side, because he is also on the inside? Does Mr. McEnery not think that people would think this?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I would not think so. I can tell the committee that the NTPF are expert negotiators. I know that many other financial advisors approach the NTPF to make representations, and I know that the NTPF is enormously competent in negotiation. I absolutely do not think, then, that the perception described by Deputy Murphy might arise. Many advisors help nursing home clients; we only have a small portion. I do not think that people might assume me to be on the inside, because I am not. There is no link or crossover between the two roles.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the Department of Health believe that there is either a conflict of interest or a perception of such a conflict? Does the Department have concerns about this issue? Has it been discussed with the Minister? What is the situation?

Mr. David Keating:

As Mr. Quinn mentioned in his statement, the Department is involved in a range of the governance mechanisms that are in place for HIQA. Under the Health Act 2007, for example, there are requirements for business planning, annual reporting and so on. There is also a code of practice for State agencies as put forward by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. The Department of Health has an oversight and governance role through the mechanisms mentioned. It will also reflect on today's discussions.

I am afraid we will not be in a position to give an immediate response to the Deputy's question.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Mr. Keating have an engagement with the Minister prior to coming to this meeting?

Mr. David Keating:

We were only asked to attend yesterday afternoon, so it was at quite short notice.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What was the instruction given? Was it to be a listening brief or was Mr. Keating to respond to anything? Was any advice given to him?

Mr. David Keating:

We will be reviewing the transcript of today's proceedings and examining the documentation, which, again, has only recently been received by us. Rather than formulating any judgments immediately, we will be reflecting on all of that. I am not suggesting that any issues have arisen but if they do arise they will be examined in due course.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Keating might as well be sitting watching this on television if that is the case. He has no role here. He cannot tell us if the Department has a view on some very serious matters of public concern that have ended up in the newspapers. Conflicts of interest arise all the time and one has to find ways of resolving them but sometimes they cannot be resolved. If, for example, somebody is acting for both sides, such a conflict cannot be resolved. Did Mr. Keating receive any guidance at all before coming to this meeting?

Mr. David Keating:

As I said, I can assure the Deputy that we will be carefully examining all the evidence that was given here today and the various items of documentation but, as a result of the timing issue we have not had time to prepare in detail.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Keating has obviously gone to the school for civil servants. He is saying nothing. Let us just leave it there because that is what I am hearing.

I wish to ask Mr. McEnery about Chinese walls. I have been hearing such walls a great deal in recent years. Does he see this as something that falls within that category, namely, that he has Chinese walls himself in respect of this issue?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

No, I would not actually and I will explain why. HIQA has nothing to do with financial matters. I am a financial adviser and there is nothing neither I nor any board member of HIQA could do to impact upon the regulatory role of the chief inspector. There is not a cross-over. I am a financial adviser. HIQA does not have a role in respect of financial matters. In fact, the reason I had an interest in this role, as chairperson - and when I submitted my application to the Public Appointments Service - is that I had experience operationally, as a care assistant, and a strong knowledge of the health care sector. There is not a crossover between the financial aspects that I advise on and the regulatory aspects that are the preserve of HIQA.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I will be very brief. I thank our guests for attending. I appreciate the amount of time they have spent here. I also thank Deputy Catherine Murphy for that final question. It was also one of the final questions I had on my list, which illustrated my satisfaction in general and in particular with the responses Ms Dunnion, as director of regulation, provided in terms of her opinion on whether there is a conflict. I do not have any further questions.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I will not delay proceedings very long because all the questions have been asked. All I want to do is inquire of Mr. McEnery whether the board understands why we are all concerned and why HIQA was brought back in here when the issue appeared in a Sunday newspaper and we found out about an obvious conflict of interest? In hindsight, does the board have any regrets about its position?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

First, I can tell Deputy Aylward that I am happy to be here. In addition, I am happy to get the opportunity to explain the context of what I believe I have explained many times, which is that I have a role as financial adviser in all aspects of the health care sector but particularly in respect of nursing homes. I am also happy to say that there is no link between HIQA and the financial aspects of the matter and there is no link then between my professional capacity and, for example, interacting with the NTPF and HIQA. That is the most emphatic thing that I want to say here today, which is that they are not related because HIQA does not have a role in financial affairs and I would not have any ability or capacity to influence an aspect of the regulation on behalf of any nursing home. That is why I included in my statement that where I was forcibly asked to intervene on behalf of a nursing home I refused because that is exactly the role I do not have, namely, to interfere with the work of the chief executive.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is that the reason we are here at all? This complaint came in because HIQA did not act and that is the reason all this came to light. Does Mr. McEnery have any comment to make on that?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I do not know whether that is the case but I am very pleased to be able to take this opportunity to clarify that I could not, would not and did not intervene, and I will not do so for as long as I am in this position because that would not be tolerated, quite frankly, by the chief inspector and it should not be either.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. McEnery not see any problem with his being chairman of HIQA and head of health care with BDO Ireland and providing advice? Does he see any conflict there at all? I know he has told us he is not interfering in anything and that he has no capacity to interfere. We accept all that, but does he see no conflict there or that questions would arise over the two positions he holds?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

If I can explain the position to Deputy Aylward, I know when I looked at the original invitation for the position of chairperson it referred to a few things. It referred to, for example, having experience of health care, which I have. I acted in the capacity of a care assistant. It specified having boardroom experience and I felt I have that. It also referred to having an understanding of the health care system and I believe I have a deep understanding of it. I believe they are three of the facts that I set out to the Public Appointments Service as to why I was a suitable person for the role and obviously the Public Appointments Service so selected. I do not believe there is a conflict and I do believe that part of the reason why I was chosen by the Public Appointments Service was because of my experience.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that. For future reference, if Mr. McEnery was asked again to give a presentation to a body such as Nursing Homes Ireland, as he did in October 2015, would he reconsider his position or would he give that presentation if was asked? Would he inquire as to why he was being asked? In hindsight, would he look at it in a different way?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I am head of health care and I do give advice. I will be giving advice to nursing homes next week. That is the truth. I have never tried to hide the fact of what I do, whether it is a hospital or a nursing home. That is my specialism. That has been my experience in life. I spoke at a conference organised by a company called CMG Events, which arranges conferences attended by many nursing homes. In fact, often there are a lot of nursing homes in attendance. I cannot control who is in attendance. I did not know who the attendees would be at that event in 2015. I was invited as a guest, I spoke and I left. I am disappointed at how it is being presented because I was not there in the capacity of an attendee, I was there to speak as a guest.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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This my final question. Could Mr. McEnery comment on the anomaly between what is the cost per resident between private and public nursing homes? As a politician, I have been told by private nursing homes that public nursing home care costs a lot more per resident than the private equivalent.

Can the witness comment on that, in the context of his role as a financial adviser?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

There are a couple of key reasons for that. One of them is that-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The issue of charges is entirely separate-----

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I just wish to ask the question now that the witness is before us.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine but I ask Mr. McEnery to be brief, because it is a topic we intend to deal with again. It is on our work programme.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is no problem. I asked it because I thought the witness would not be before the committee again.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are coming back to that in our work programme. Perhaps we can move on, Deputy, because we intend to dedicate far more time to that topic. I will give one minute each to Deputies MacSharry and McDonald.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to raise two matters. First, I wish to clarify something. I said that the witness should consider his position. It may well be, without prejudice, because of his successful career in acquiring knowledge and expertise that he has something of a monopoly on information. I mean this in a respectful way. As a result of the latter and because of the public confidence issue, it is on that basis, and without having done anything wrong, it might be better for the authority if the witness stepped aside. However, I have a specific question. He mentioned that a nursing home had approached him and asked him to remain silent on a report that was, perhaps, going to have a negative impact on it and the witness point-blank refused to do so. That is admirable and I respect it. In light of the fact that we were given information that cannot be mentioned here due to legal privilege, when that nursing home approached the witness to intervene in the matter, were threats made by the nursing home to the effect that if the witness did not comply with the request, it would seek to make public conflicts of interest that it was alleging, be they true or untrue? In essence, was there an attempt by this nursing home to blackmail the witness?

Mr. Brian McEnery:

I certainly feel that there were references in that communication which said-----