Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Doherty is sharing time with Senator Seery Kearney. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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I welcome some guests in the Gallery. The couple who originally came to me many years ago with this issue, Caroline and Martin Smith, are here. It has taken us this long to get a resolution. They are very welcome today. They are accompanied by Anne-Marie Murtagh, Sarah Behan, Georgina Culshaw and Mary Halford. They are all very welcome and I am glad they are here today.

I am introducing a Bill the concept of which is the most simple, unoffensive little item of legislation that introduces a non-statutory register for the tremendous loss that thousands of families and women feel every year. In my heart, it is hard to believe that this did not already exist. It is incredibly frustrating to know that I was the Minister responsible for the General Register Office when Caroline and Martin first came to me. Considerable blockages were put in the way of the then Minister, who was myself, in order to be able to achieve something that is humongous for the people who lose their loved members of their family. It is such a small thing for the State to do to recognise that loss and the life that was their family member.

I am incredibly proud of the little body of work we have done over the past number of years to be able to stand here with the actual pieces of paper in my hand, with my name on it and the name of my co-sponsor of this Bill, Senator Seery Kearney. It represents years of work of the families represented here. There are so many more families. In this country we are not good at speaking about loss, we tend to bottle it up and keep quiet. Even when we know somebody else has lost a baby we tend not to speak to them because we do not know what to say to them. Therefore it might not be commonly known that every year 15,000 pregnancies are lost in miscarriage. One in five women who get pregnant every year lose their baby at some point during the term of the pregnancy. I say this and it sounds wrong but those who are fortunate enough to lose a baby after 24 weeks or if the baby has reached the milestone of 500 g when the baby is born, they get a document, a stillbirth register, and the State acknowledges both the life and the loss of that much-wanted child. However this does not apply for those whose baby is born what could be days before that arbitrary definition of a stillbirth that is laid down by the WHO, which was one of the reasons we could not or were not permitted to apply this register a number of years ago. A baby that might be only 1 g shy of the 500 g or one day shy does not exist in the eyes of the State. It never hiccupped in the womb, never turned, it just does not exist. For those parents involved that is not acceptable. Apart from the State having an obligation to recognise families in their entirety in all their shapes and forms and their gains, it is also the State’s responsibility to look after the losses of families and to recognise the loss.

This non-statutory register is not going to confer any rights, any financial benefit or any social welfare protections, and maybe it should but that is another day’s work. All it is going to do is acknowledge the life and the loss of a baby that does not reach the stillbirth definition laid down by the WHO. To my mind what we have done for years is wholly disrespect the grief and probably in many cases interrupt the grieving process of families who have lost babies. We had these conversations over the years in regard to other legislation. We all agree as mammies, and Senator Seery Kearney said it last week when we introduced the Bill, when you do that first pregnancy test, and sometimes you do it a second and third time just to be absolutely sure, the two lines means there is a baby in there. There is a lovely Fruit of the Womb calendar that shows you what the baby is like at four weeks’ gestation. It likens it to fruits, so you go from having a strawberry to having a melon. It is a wonderful experience. As Senator Seery Kearney said last week, a whole life is lived in the first couple of hours. What we have done to all of these families, the 15,000 families every year, for as long as this has existed, is halt their grieving process because we have not recognised that they have actually lost anything. That is inherently wrong.

Today’s register will absolutely allow those women, families, people who lose babies between the time of being medically certified as pregnant right up to and before reaching the milestone of 500 g or 24 weeks. If you unfortunately lose your baby during that time you are going to be allowed to apply for a register that shows that the State acknowledges both the life and the loss. That is all it is going to do. It is not something to be afraid of. A number of people contacted me last week who were afraid it will do something to some other legislation or infer rights. First of all we should have rights. The only thing this will give a right to is for families to have a legal and statutory, even though it is non-statutory, recognition and certificate of the baby they were carrying and lost that does not reach the milestones as set down by the medical definitions. For Caroline and Martin and their little man who was actually born and passed away seven years ago today, the timing of this Bill is down to the universe because it was not anything to do with me or with Senator Seery Kearney. It is the universe telling me that this is absolutely the right thing to do. It was absolutely the right thing for that wonderful couple to keep nagging me for all the years that they have nagged me to make sure that we got to this stage.

I want to say on the record and to the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, who I thank for being here today, that I am incredibly pleased that the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys, has asked Cabinet not to oppose this Bill. I do not know how I would feel today if that were not the case. The feedback from my Seanad colleagues is that they are all supportive of this Bill because it is incredibly simple but powerful. I will ask that we do Committee and Report Stages together given that there will not be any opposition to it. We may do it very quickly so that we can get this Bill into the Dáil. Because there is not an equivalent of my role in the Dáil, and Senator Seery Kearney and I are both the co-sponsors, I ask the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, to comment or at least come back to me as to whether, if and when the Bill passes this House, the Minister will take it in her own name to the Lower House and to pass it and put it on our Statute Book in order that very shortly, we will be able to issue the certificates to any of the 15,000 women and families who have lost a baby this year, and every year going forward.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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It is my great honour to second this Bill and commend it to the House. I am very grateful to hear from the Leader that the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, is supportive of the Bill.

I thank the Minister of State for being here today. I thank the Leader for bringing this forward and for being so tenacious as a Minister and also as a Leader, and for inviting me to be part of it. To Stephen, I want to say a very happy birthday. I have no doubt that today is a day of mixed emotions, cherishing his memory and the sadness of the days that were not lived with him. To Martin and Caroline and to all who have come here, but especially to Martin and Caroline, the organisation Proud 2 Parent lists these concepts among the definition of parenthood and parenting, namely, meeting basic needs, protection, love and leading. I say to them today, well done on being the most fantastic parents to Stephen, for protecting him and making sure that his life, short as it was, was one of great significance, for loving him and leading the way for so many other parents to have the significance of their babies recognised. Well done Mammy and Daddy, Stephen would be very proud of you in the universe today.Pregnancy loss at any stage can be a very difficult experience for a couple. Academic studies by psychologists have shown a significant depression and anxiety in the first month following early pregnancy loss in women. Partners have also been shown to display depression and anxiety, albeit generally at a slightly lower level. There is also evidence of post-traumatic stress symptoms relating to early pregnancy loss.

The American Psychological Association found that while the tragedy of miscarriage has traditionally been private and an event grieved largely by the mother, healthcare professionals have seen that these women's great sadness would grow less pronounced over time, especially following a successful pregnancy. That was the thinking but research suggests that some women mourn for much longer than expected, even after the birth of a healthy child, although the range and severity of the symptoms may vary. That is also true for men. Studies have found that men grieve over a miscarriage and what was once thought is no longer the academic and professionally-held view.

Miscarriages are very common. Statistics show that one in four pregnancies end in miscarriage. Its impact is often underestimated but a miscarriage is a traumatic loss. It is a loss not only of the pregnancy but of a woman's sense of self and her hopes and dreams for the future. She has lost her reproductive story and all of that has to be grieved. The tragedy of miscarriage has traditionally been private but it is right that we talk about it and bring it out into the public, and afford women and men the opportunity to mourn the much-longed-for child and that their grief is publicly recognised and supported.

Clinical psychologists have found that a woman who has a miscarriage is at risk of depression and anxiety even after having a healthy child. Women who miscarry have a greater possibility of postpartum depression. The misunderstanding about miscarriage is that a woman will experience less grief if she has lost the baby early in pregnancy. However, research has proven that is not the case and that the length of gestation has no bearing on the intensity of grief. A woman who has lost a baby at 11 weeks may be as distraught as a woman who has lost a baby at 20 weeks.

While the medical experience and the emphasis and meaning of a pregnancy may vary, labelling it a traumatic loss will validate that experience of grief. That is exactly what this Bill does – it validates the loss that has occurred and that life existed that was significant to the persons whose lives and circumstances were such that they longed for that child. Recognising the life is also recognising the loss to those who grieve.

Society, in the effort to be helpful, can be very dismissive of loss. Following the sharing of news of a miscarriage people can say that it was not meant to be or what is for one will not pass one - a hated saying of mine - and that one can try again. While well meaning, it is a thoughtless implication that the baby that was due and the grief associated with that loss is not as significant as it is.

The statement and action of this Bill was brought about by the determination of Caroline and Martin Smith that Stephen was and is significant and maybe as we move forward as a society, in having a certificate of life and a State mechanism of recognition, we will review how we treat miscarriage and respect the grief of parents. In many cases of early pregnancy loss, there is no body to hold or remains to bury and no place to go with the loss. This Bill gives a place to go and a place of recognition.

On Good Friday 2008, four days earlier than I was supposed to do a pregnancy test, I woke up in the middle of the night having dreamt that I was pregnant. I ran into the bathroom and did a pregnancy test – I had a pile of about ten of them waiting to be used. I was not in my first IVF cycle but I knew this one felt different. My body felt different. The test was a very clear positive. I did it again to be sure that I was not imagining it or still dreaming it. It was still positive. My husband - my poor Dave - was woken up by my shrieking. The two of us hugged and cried and celebrated that after seven years of marriage and trying, we were finally pregnant.

We were suddenly transformed into a family at that very early stage. Dave made me tea and brought me breakfast in bed and treated me and my wonderful body that was now holding our baby with such tenderness and love. We drove to my parents to tell them that all was great and they would finally have a grandchild and we rang my stepchildren to tell them they were going to have a little brother or sister. Everybody was delighted.

That weekend, Dave and I were in Tesco with my mother and when we came to the baby aisle, an aisle that I studiously avoided for years, he stood at the top of it and proudly invited me to walk down it and I did so. I looked at nappies and all of the bits and pieces. I even picked up Sudocrem and thought I would have that and all of the other things. We drove to Mamas & Papas and bought a baby grow, a nameplate for the door of the room that would be the nursery and I even started to crochet booties. We speculated on names, birth, the celebrations of our baby’s life, schools and a whole lifetime. We imagined our first Christmas including the decorations and visits to Santa. We planned a whole life.

In the weeks that followed, what started out as blood spotting ended in a full miscarriage. That was the first of five such losses over the next few years. Later that year, a much longer pregnancy ended on 29 December. We still have the scans. I can still hear the sounds of the heartbeat. That new year of 2008 going into 2009, we locked ourselves away. Our best friends, John and Melisa, hung groceries on the door of our house in order that we could lock ourselves away and grieve. Every year on 29 December, we go to my grandparents grave and lay a wreath on their grave in memory of the lives we lived for such a short time and the lives we lost. They are members of our family and they are in my heart and in David’s heart.

I pinch myself every day with joy for the baby that was born, via the wonderful woman who was prepared to be our surrogate and the clinic that cherished our journey to holding our baby. We celebrate her every day and while as a family we fully live and love her together, that does not diminish our need to memorialise our loved ones that were lost.

I commend the Bill to the House. I seek the support of this House - it is clear that will be unanimous - so that we ensure that for those families who wish to, they have the opportunity to have that lifetime that was lived recognised, for however long the pregnancy was, of those who are remembered and cherished and that we respect their right to grieve. I commend the Bill to the House.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator for sharing her story which is unfortunately the story of so many.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I find it very hard to follow that contribution. I acknowledge Senator Seery Kearney's honesty and bravery in telling us her story. I acknowledge that Stephen's life mattered and welcome his parents, Caroline and Martin. I have no doubt that the death of a baby is one of the most devastating experiences any parent will face and, sadly, many families have such an experience every year. I can totally imagine how families are struggling with that loss.

It is important to acknowledge that October is national pregnancy and infant loss awareness month.I imagine it is a difficult time for families.

I acknowledge the positive intent of this Bill and the work of Senators Doherty and Seery Kearney to make sure it will become a reality. It will support thousands of families around Ireland by ensuring that the loss of their baby, no matter at what stage it happened, is acknowledged and recognised. I also acknowledge that the Bill is designed to provide for a voluntary scheme of registration. It is important that it is voluntary. As any of us deal with loss, bereavement or grief in our families, we all have different ways to deal with it. I have no doubt that this will be important for many, but there may be some who may choose not to go down this road. The loss of a pregnancy that does not meet the criteria for a stillbirth registration has to be painful. I understand that the establishment of such a register would provide some type of comfort to parents bereaved by an early loss in pregnancy.

Yesterday, we had a presentation in the audiovisual room, organised by my colleague, Senator Clifford-Lee. I had the opportunity to go to that and to listen to Professor Keelin O'Donoghue, consultant obstetrician, and Riona Cotter, senior midwifery manager. They are the HSE implementation leads for national standards for bereavement following pregnancy loss. It is important to acknowledge the incredible work that they are doing. Máirie Cregan, the chair and founder of Féileacáin, was also present. Féileacáin does incredible work and helped following the bereavement of a friend of mine who had twins. My mother knits little matinee coats every year for babies who are stillborn. I appreciate that we are not talking about stillbirths now, but I acknowledge the work that Féileacáin does.

I understand that the Minister of State has said that some complex and difficult legal issues will need to be considered and resolved prior to any enactment, but a strong message should go from this House that we expect these issues to be considered and resolved to ensure that this Bill is enacted. We should ask the Department of Health to look at the registration of a loss of life during pregnancy and to consult with the General Register Office about the method by which such a registration would be given effect. That is important.

I understand that miscarriages are not officially recorded in Ireland, but it is shocking to learn that possibly 14,000 early pregnancy miscarriages happen each year. That is one in four pregnancies. The risk of stillbirth is at one in 200 pregnancies, despite many improvements in medical care. These rates have remained nearly constant. That is why the work of Professor O'Donoghue in leading a team of researchers who have been studying these causes and how to better prevent and understand these losses is important. We need to support this work.

That is as much as I can say. I do not want to go into the technical elements because today is about supporting bereaved parents, remembering Stephen and acknowledging the loss of Senator Seery Kearney and many others. I fully support this Bill and look forward to it passing and being implemented to support many families.

Niall Ó Donnghaile (Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit agus roimh an Bhille atá os ár gcomhair. Tréaslaím leis an méid atá ráite aige go dtí seo agus molaim mholtóirí an Bhille, na Seanadóirí Doherty agus Seery Kearney. I begin by welcoming the Minister of State and thanking colleagues who have introduced this important Bill. I apologise to colleagues for missing their contributions. I was at a committee meeting. I wanted to contribute to this important debate. I acknowledge what Senator O'Loughlin said, that we recognise and appreciate that there may be complexities, but this is about resolving them and getting to where we need to be. I welcome our guests to the Gallery.

I begin by thanking Senadóirí Regina Doherty and Mary Seery Kearney for bringing this Bill to the Seanad and allowing us an opportunity to speak on a matter of huge importance to the people of this country, especially the families affected. This rarely receives public attention because of its sensitive nature. I commend all involved, including Deputies, Seanadóirí and their staff, who have organised a number of events in the Seanad and the audiovisual room in recent days and weeks to publicly highlight aspects of life which directly affect women and men to different degrees. These events have covered the importance of breastfeeding, the impact of menopause and the impact of stillbirth and miscarriage, as well as today's Bill, Civil Registration (Amendment) (Certificate of Life) Bill 2022. All the events have shown the great work that has been done and what needs to be done to further improve the quality of women's lives and consequently the lives of their partners and families.

The World Health Organization named October as menopause awareness month. Two days ago, 18 October, was World Menopause Day. We have all experienced, within our family or among friends and neighbours, the joy of a new arrival and the great hope that it engenders for the future for everyone involved. A new arrival is a very public affair. It is one of life's definitive and welcome occasions, where the parents or single mother are rightly at the centre of everyone's attention and praise. For all involved with the new arrival, it is a positive, personal, life-affirming and memorable occasion, but life teaches us that in the bearing and rearing of children, joy and sadness are opposite sides of the coin of life. Today's Bill reflects the sadness side of that coin of life because it addresses the loss of a child through miscarriage and the emotional impact of that loss on the mother and father.

The Bill specifically calls for the setting up of a non-statutory new form of registration, called the certificate of life. It specifically identifies this need on the basis that a miscarriage can occur at any time in circumstances that do not meet the requirements for a stillbirth registration under the current law. The proposed amendment will ensure that a certificate of life will be available to any woman who has lost a baby outside the current regulations which provide for a recognition, in law, of the loss. The certificate of life is important to the grieving parents who have experienced the miscarriage. It represents recognition by the State of the child's existence, recognition of the loss and of its emotional impact on the mother, father and family. It should also result in those affected being provided with the kind of support that is available at the moment to those who experience stillbirth, as well as parental leave, access to bereavement care and medical advice. At a time of great emotional turmoil following a miscarriage, this thoughtful legislation will play its part in the grieving process and help the parents concerned to manage the loss of their child. That is what this is about at its heart.

I look forward to hearing the Minister of State's response. I think he will find willingness to engage with the Department and Minister across the Seanad to ensure that any complexities, issues and concerns can be ironed out, because we have the potential to do something. With that potential, there is also a great obligation to ensure that we get this right. This Bill, as proposed by Senators Doherty and Seery Kearney, shows us the way to get there.

I support the legislation, wish it well and look forward to its continued passage through the House. For all of the reasons that I have outlined, and reasons which other colleagues have and no doubt will outline, I hope to see the legislation come into effect as soon as possible.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I am glad to have the opportunity to speak on this Bill. I thank Senators Doherty and Seery Kearney for introducing it. I pay tribute to Caroline and Martin Smith, who were in contact with us about Bill that was debated last year about reproductive health leave and the amendments tabled on Committee Stage earlier this year.I want to pay tribute to the tenacity, perseverance and work of Caroline and Martin. I am thinking of Elaine and her family, Jacinta and her family, and all those in Féileacáin who have been campaigning on this issue for a considerable time. We were very glad to be able to put forward an amendment in our own Bill earlier this year but I am heartened to hear that we have a stand-alone Bill on this issue of a certificate of life and a non-statutory register with regard to stillbirth and early pregnancy loss. It is very important that the Government takes this up and just gets on with it.

In much of the correspondence we have had, there is that plea for recognition by families who have been devastated by miscarriage and stillbirth. There was hardly a dry eye in the House listening to Senator Seery Kearney and her devastating experience. It is the stories we have come across in terms of that loss and the cruelty of what seems like an arbitrary definition of stillbirth despite what it would seem to the family at the time. There is the shock that one mother described to me of learning that her baby, who came out perfectly formed, will not be recognised like any other baby just because they did not meet that threshold of 500 g or the 24 weeks when they were born. Another parent describes that unnecessary torture of knowing that the siblings or other family members would not have access to the information about that baby in times to come. I very much welcome this as a stand-alone Bill. I hope it proceeds quickly and that some peace and solace is given to those families who have had to suffer that devastating loss.

A lack of a commemorative certificate is just one of a number of injustices associated with pregnancy loss. In particular, I want to make the point that Ireland is out of step with other countries. Most other European Union countries have a definition of stillbirth. Like Senator O’Loughlin, I listened yesterday to Professor Keelin O'Donoghue, Riona Cotter and Mairie Cregan of Féileacáin talk about the disparities between the definition in Ireland and elsewhere. In particular, we know that almost 60% of EU countries have a definition of stillbirth at 22 weeks. I want to very much support the call by the pregnancy loss research group and the National Perinatal Epidemiology Centre for a change in the definition of stillbirth in Ireland to bring it to 22 weeks and 400 g. I know the HSE has a recommendation from 2021 that it be 23 weeks and 400 g, but 23 weeks seems a bit unusual because there are so few other countries that have it at 23 weeks. It is three decades or more since we last updated the definition of stillbirth. My appeal to the Minister of State is that the Department of Health needs to look at this sooner rather than later. Obviously, a change in definition does not provide any great solace to those who have lost a baby, but it does mean they have access to the statutory stillbirth register and, importantly, entitlement to maternity and paternity leave. It would mean greater provision is made for those who lose babies coming to the 22 weeks or at the 400 g birth weight.

To conclude, I very much welcome the Bill. It is simple and straightforward. For all those families, there is a mechanism and a proposal here to ensure there is recognition for their loss. As I said, I urge the Government to move on this as soon as possible.

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I acknowledge the life of Stephen, and welcome Caroline and Martin to the Visitors Gallery. I want to also acknowledge Senator Doherty and in particular Senator Seery Kearney for that very moving and emotive contribution in which the Senator outlined a life-changing experience that so many in our society go through in their daily lives. It is poignant to note that October is the month set aside to mark pregnancy and infant loss and it is good that this House is contributing to recognising the unbearable losses suffered by parents, especially mothers, but also their families.

This past week was a time when events to commemorate pregnancy loss were held across the country and internationally. I know that many have joined in these events to mark the trauma that impacts many families throughout the country. I have listened with great interest to the contributions of Senators. It is difficult not to be moved by the stories of the families impacted by such loss and the commitment and support each of them provide. We are fortunate to have support groups and those wonderful professionals working within the HSE who provide care, guidance and solace during very difficult times.

Looking back, it is clear that a higher profile is being given to parental bereavement issues. Whereas, before, many people felt that they did not know how to approach the subject or what to say, we are increasingly seeing people coming forward and offering words of understanding, sympathy, kindness and condolence. Parents are also being more open about their losses, which in the past were not disclosed or discussed, even within families. This openness is to be welcomed and our appreciation must go to those who are providing practical supports and leading the arguments for greater recognition. Pregnancy loss affects many families. Department of Health and HSE data indicate that, each year, as many as 14,000 early pregnancies end in loss, while 320 to 350 stillbirths and early neonatal deaths occur. Many parents deal with this loss in silence and do not share their stories or seek support.

Senators Doherty and Seery Kearney have drafted the Bill that is before us today. As the Senators have indicated, the purpose of the Bill is to establish a non-statutory register called the certificate of life. In doing so, the process will provide an option to recognise and commemorate a loss in pregnancy where it cannot be registered in the stillbirth register. I think this is the first such initiative to have been put to either House.

On behalf of the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, I want to reference the forthcoming proposals which will soon be considered relating to the stillbirth register. The General Register Office, GRO, is notified of all births, stillbirths and neonatal deaths that occur. Something of the order of between 300 and 350 families are affected each year by loss due to stillbirth and early neonatal deaths. The GRO also observes that due to the voluntary nature of the stillbirth registration process, around half of parents elect to register, meaning that a significant number of parents do not register, perhaps in part reflecting the effect of the huge loss suffered by them and their wider family. While we accept that parents may not consider registration at the time of their loss, we feel that the stillbirth registration process confers a recognition of their stillborn child that in later years would bring a degree of comfort to them, and we would encourage parents to register. Proposals are being advanced by the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, which I hope the Government will agree to, that will see legislative change to the criteria and give greater access to the register.

The report outlines that the threshold of foetal viability has progressively lowered over time. In the 1970s, the limit was set at 28 weeks' gestation and, over the subsequent 30 years, it has decreased to 24 weeks' gestation. More recently, the threshold of viability has reduced to 23 weeks' gestation with advances in medical care and practice. I understand the report has taken account of the opinions of neonatologists, obstetricians, neonatal nurses, midwives and parents.The report notes the psychological and emotional toll of a very pre-term birth on the parents and extended family.

I hope the House will join with me in expressing our deep appreciation to the many midwives, nurses, doctors and other professionals who deal with parents, and especially mothers, at a crisis time in their pregnancies and where the outlook can often be bleak and unforgiving. I think Senators will agree that these are very welcome developments and ones that will need to be reflected in our legislation. In mentioning this, I wish to draw the attention of the House to work that is being undertaken in respect of a commitment the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, made in the Dáil this time last year to examine the scheme of registration for stillbirths.

The Civil Registration Act provides that no person other than the Registrar General or a member of the staff of the GRO, is authorised to search the Register of Stillbirths. The GRO provides whatever assistance it can to enable searches. There are restrictions on providing copies of the information held in the form of a certificate to anyone other than a parent. The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, has asked the GRO to examine the current restrictions and to bring forward proposals to improve access and to identify any legislative implications involved in making the stillbirth register more open and if it should in fact be fully open to public access, as with other public registers it holds.

In examining this matter, the GRO considered several approaches and took account of representations made by Féileacáin and others, and I am happy to summarise these for the Members. The first option is to leave the current access arrangements as they stand. That is, access is restricted to the parents of the child recorded in the register and staff of the GRO. A second option is to provide full public access along the lines of other registers held by the GRO. A third option would fall short of full public access but would provide access to a wider cohort of family members and family representatives.

In determining an approach, the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, accepted the view of the GRO and others that the status quocannot be maintained. Limiting access to the parents of a child is far too restrictive and this is borne out by representations made over the years by advocacy groups and others. The current arrangement does not provide for situations when parents finally pass away where siblings and other family members wish to access the register. I know that parents are worried that when they die, access to the register might not be facilitated. That is a real concern which we need to address. While the GRO facilitates access in such circumstances, I accept that a better solution can be achieved.

The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, is of the view that full public access to the register will not meet the needs of parents and families who have children recorded in the register. Such a proposal, in her view, does not respect the sensitivities involved and that other, less limiting, forms of access could be considered. Suggestions have been made that if public access is enabled, that an “opt-out” could be provided for parents with respect to the nature of future access to the register. The Minister does not consider that such an approach is feasible given the principles underpinning registration law and practice and how a position could be sustained into the future to deny access to interested family members if such an opt-out was in place. A third option is to reflect the practice employed elsewhere in the registration system where access is permitted to a wider group of family members and representatives. This is an approach favoured by the GRO, in that it balances the sensitivities of parents, while also providing for broader access, without going as far as enabling full public access. The Minister plans to bring legislative proposals in this area in the near future to reflect the range of opinions expressed. It will ultimately be a matter for the Oireachtas to determine the approach.

On behalf of the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, I also wish to raise a number of issues which merit consideration in the context of being helpful in regard to this Bill's passage through the House. The Long Title of the Bill sets out that its main aim is to amend the Civil Registration Act 2004 to establish a non-statutory register called the certificate of life where a child is lost during a pregnancy and does not meet the stillbirth registration criteria. Essentially, what the Bill purports to do is to create a statutory framework for a registration scheme. However, there is a concern in respect of the discretion on parents and I note that parents were not referred to initially in regard to having a role in the registration process. Also, there is no reference to the voluntary nature of the registration in the Bill, and this is at odds with how stillbirths are registered.

As the Bill seeks to amend the Civil Registration Act, no mention is made of the GRO or of its role with respect to registration matters. It is unclear if registration should be voluntary, given that the obligation to register is placed on medical practitioners and others. It is also unclear if the registers should be hosted by hospitals or the GRO, although I understand that the former is the intention of the Senators, given that it is proposed that certificates will be issued by medical practitioners or the hospital or medical institution.

While the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, fully accepts the spirit of the Bill, the aforementioned notes are essentially provided to be helpful to the Senators.

The Ministers attention has been drawn in recent weeks to work that has been undertaken in England and to a recently published policy paper on a women's health strategy for England. The policy paper contains a recommendation from the Pregnancy Loss Review. This review has been under way for a number of years in the UK and is expected to be published later this year and has been mentioned as a useful resource in determining an approach which could also be applied.

The government there has accepted a recommendation to introduce a pregnancy loss certificate in England. My understanding is that will be a voluntary scheme operated by hospitals and will enable parents who have experienced a pre-24 weeks' pregnancy loss to record and receive a certificate to provide recognition of the loss of their baby. Unfortunately, very little detail is offered other than that of a certificate which will have no legal standing but will act as an acknowledgement of a life lost.

The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, considers that such a scheme could have application and would go some way to meet the needs of parents. However, as I already mentioned, consideration of any scheme along the lines that are proposed for England would be more appropriately undertaken by the Department of Health and the HSE.

This is an area on which the Government wants to work with all Senators and there is much work we can do in order to get a clear and common understanding of what people require and how we can meet those demands. I want to acknowledge the commitment shown and to applaud those who have shared their personal stories and the stories of the people they represent. The comments I have just made on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, are intended to be helpful.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Acting Chairperson and the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, for coming to the Chamber today and for his interventions in the Minister's speech. The bizarre nature of the response would probably be okay if this was the first time that the Department and its officials had ever had any sight of this. I spent a privileged four years in the Department and there are very large files of meetings we have had, not just with Martin and Caroline Smith but with all of the officials who attempted to do this, so this is not a new issue.

Addressing the specific issues outlined by the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, that there is no mention of the voluntary nature of the registration in the Bill; in section 2(2) the Bill states that the “Certificates issued [will be] pursuant to a scheme ... where so requested”. It is entirely incumbent, therefore, upon the mother, the father or the people who suffered the loss to apply to the GRO for their certificate. This is a completely voluntary and non-statutory process and does not ever expect to infer any other statutory rights.

The reason that this is an amendment to the Civil Registration Act and that the medical practitioner is required to certify it is because that is what happens when we lose babies. We go to the hospital because we want to try to save the baby and the loss to my mind, whether it is prior to 24-weeks or after that period, is part of the register of that hospital, so a medical practitioner after 24 weeks certifies that a baby was born and that a baby had died. All we are asking for is the equivalent medical certificate for a baby that does not reach the WHO certification standards.

This is not something that is new and we are not trying to create something to be awkward here. We want the medical practitioners at the time of the loss to register the baby's loss and then for the GRO, in exactly the same way as they do with the stillbirth register, if the parents wish to apply for the non-statutory certificate of life or loss - whichever way we want to term it - that such an application will suffice the GRO to give them the records.

I am not trying to be smart, and particularly not to the Minister of State, but this is not rocket science. What this does is acknowledge the 15,000 babies who are lost each and every year, and the lives lived in the first hours of the duration after pregnancy tests and that are lost, together with the years of grief that have been interrupted for so many families. If there is a will, and there certainly is in this House from the contributions that the Minister of State has heard today, and there certainly is also from the activists, both parents and representative bodies, to ensure that the State does not stand in its own way or in the way of parents of citizens of this State any longer, then we will find a way.I will work with the officials and if there are amendments that need to be brought before Committee Stage we will do that but we will see the passage of this Bill through to its end. I respectfully ask the Minister of State to bring back the message to the Minister that when we do, we expect her to bring it though the Dáil for us.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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Next Tuesday.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.