Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, back to the House.

When the debate on this item adjourned on 10 November 2020, there were 20 minutes remaining. As per the Order of the House today, the Minister of State has been allocated a further four-minute contribution in this resumed debate. Senator Malcolm Byrne, as a proposer, is entitled to five minutes in which to reply. Therefore, we have 11 minutes remaining in total for Senators who have not already spoken.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity to speak on this. I thank the Minister of State for joining us in the Seanad. I commend my colleague, Senator Malcolm Byrne, who has worked tirelessly in this area. He is very passionate about extending the franchise for the Seanad vote.

Discussion on the need to reform the Seanad is not new. We could stack reports on Seanad reform a mile high. I know the Cathaoirleach took time over the summer to go through them all. I concur with my colleagues who say it is the time to act in those areas that we can. Certainly, this particular area is one that we should absolutely act on immediately.

When Seanad Éireann was composed in the 1930s, Ireland was a very different place and a country that would be unrecognisable today. Under the leadership of great leaders, such as Eamon de Valera, Seán Lemass and Bertie Ahern, this country has transformed into a highly educated, highly productive and wealthy nation. However, our institutions have not. I support the premise of this Bill that the Seanad needs to catch up with that societal development.

Seanad reform, as I said, is a vast topic that is complex and multifaceted. This Bill proposed sets us down the path of action. It allows us to move on from talking in circles on reform to implementing a reform agenda. Extending the franchise of the university panel of Seanad Éireann to all people who are over 18 and are holders of an appropriate third level qualification from an Irish institute of higher education is a logical and fair starting point.

In the 1930s, one in 50 reached third level on average. Today three in five opt to enter third level, which is something, of course, on which my party is very proud to have led the charge. To exclude certain graduates is elitist and does not make logical sense. For that reason, I fully support this Bill that Senator Malcolm Byrne tabled. A graduate of Technological University, TU, Dublin, University of Limerick, UL, or any other third level institution is just as entitled to participate in the democratic functions of this House as any other graduate. It is completely unjust and is insulting to those who, for whatever reason, did not attend the “right college” to earn them a democratic vote.

I agree with Senator Malcolm Byrne in terms of making this an opt-in process. We must be practical in how we approach this. There were fears expressed that to do such a thing retrospectively would be an administrative pariah. However, the opt-in method deals with that point comprehensively.

Reform of the Seanad is long overdue. As colleagues in the previous debate referenced, we have seen little or no action on the topic since the passing of the seventh amendment in 1979. There have now been 16 Administrations that have, frankly, ignored the 92% “Yes” vote in that referendum. Again, the demands of the people were expressed when this House was maintained by referendum in 2013 with a clear message to reform our ways. We cannot continue to wait and we have no excuse to wait. This Bill is logical and well balanced and shows a further commitment from my party to education and reform.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Buttimer is about to make a statement and I believe Liz Truss is about to make a statement at 1.30 p.m. as well.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I promise my statement will not be as dramatic as Prime Minister Truss’s.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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You never know, Senator Buttimer. You never know.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I have no notion of resigning. Not at this occasion, anyway.

I join with Senator O’Loughlin in commending my colleague and friend, Senator Malcolm Byrne, on this very important and appropriate Private Members’ Bill on Seanad electoral reform - if I can use that use that dreaded term, “Seanad reform” - to expand the franchise. He is right that it is time we did it. As Senator O’Loughlin said, Seanad reform has been an ongoing, rolling debate for decades in this country.The debate has been fractious at times. There has been little or no uniform agreement and we have had a myriad of reports published. I think that this is the one area where we can find common ground in bringing reform. I welcome the road map to this extension of the franchise.

It would be appropriate to have the Bill passed, given that we have seen a whole new suite of technological universities established, in particular Munster Technological University, MTU, in Cork. As Senator O'Loughlin said, it is wrong that we differentiate between graduates in their being allowed this franchise as part of the Seanad election process. We can argue as to how the new electors will be included, how we will be able to administer the system and how we will be able to ensure that people register. That is all part of what we can do; it is not a roadblock. That should not be a stumbling block to this legislation being enacted. We can find very simple ways of doing that, in my opinion. I support wholeheartedly the inclusion of graduates from the technological and other universities who have been excluded until now. We must broaden the electoral base, extend the franchise and create an opportunity for the graduates of our new technological universities. To that end, I highlight again the importance of MTU in the context of this debate. I congratulate the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, and the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, on the bedding-in period in respect of MTU in Cork and Tralee.

I have one slight deviation to the debate to take in respect of St. Patrick's Pontifical University, Maynooth, which awards degrees, including postgraduate degrees. In the context of this debate, would there be merit in the inclusion of graduates of that university? Those graduates do not come under the remit of the NUI but, nonetheless, are awarded degrees. It would be important to have that broader discussion again, but I will not delay the Bill.

In the context of education, I pay tribute to the John Bruton Government in which Niamh Bhreathnach was Minister for Education. She created a pathway for people who could not previously access third level education to avail of it. I commend Ruairí Quinn, Richard Bruton and Joe McHugh, who are past Ministers for Education. Now, with the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, we see third level education represented at the Cabinet table as a stand-alone Ministry, and rightly so.

I commend the Minister of State on his initiative today. I wholeheartedly support the Bill.

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State. Is it not wonderful that more students with a third level degree will now be able to take part in the electoral process for Seanad Éireann? It will make the Seanad a lot more relevant to young people, and that is what we want to see. We want people involved in what we do in this House day to day in order that they care about their representatives, who come through the universities and the colleges. In that context, I welcome the Bill.

I pay tribute to the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science on all the changes we see coming through with the higher education Act. I pay tribute also to our former Minister of State, Mary Mitchell O'Connor, who introduced the very first technological university. These TUs are absolutely crucial. The Minister of State will see - I am sure he will be looking for them - centres of excellence coming out of our TUs. We have the brand-new Technological University of the Shannon, TUS, in Athlone. It has just opened up a learning gate in Ballinasloe town. It is looking at opening up another 11 learning gates. These are places where students can come to study. We will also see that for the Atlantic Technological University, ATU. These are campuses all over Letterkenny, Castlebar, Mountbellew and Galway. Students who are part of the TUs all across the country, not just in our cities but in our towns, will now be able to participate in voting for Senators as nominated through the higher education institutions. That accounts for six of the Senators in our grouping.

This is absolutely fantastic. I thank the Minister of State for his time and look forward to hearing his response.

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank Members for their contributions. I thank Senators Malcolm Byrne, Casey and Cassells for bringing forward this Bill and all the Senators who contributed to the debate. While the programme for Government, Our Shared Future, does not make an explicit commitment on the issue of Seanad reform, it is recognised that the issue of the university franchise, which has been outstanding since the seventh amendment to the Constitution in 1979, is among those that should be considered as part of any reform of Seanad Éireann. On that basis, and as indicated by the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, when he spoke during this Second Stage debate, the Government is not opposing the Bill on Second Stage.

However, the Government's immediate goals in respect of electoral reform are set out in the programme for Government, Our Shared Future. A number of significant reforms have been brought forward by way of the Electoral Reform Act 2022, which was enacted in July of this year. The Act provides for a number of significant reforms, including the establishment of an independent, statutory electoral commission. It also provides for the modernisation of the electoral registration process, provides for new regulatory provisions to ensure transparency in online paid political advertising and provides a role for the commission in tackling online misinformation and disinformation during electoral events. It facilitates the holding of electoral events during Covid-19-type restrictions and introduces same-day island voting.

The short Bill before us presents a complex proposal, and a number of questions arise which will need further consideration. The proposed amendment to section 6(1)(c) of the Act of 1937 would appear to give the Minster the power to address many of these issues by way of making regulations. It may be more appropriate, however, to address these issues in the Bill. There appears to be no clear definition in the Bill as to what is meant by "institutions of higher education in the State", which is the term used in Article 18.4.2° of the Constitution. That would need to be defined. Detailed consideration would need to be given as to what third level qualifications should be recognised as confirming a right to vote. Should it be a degree and a diploma, as set out in the Bill, or should a certificate be included?

A related question arises as to what type of appeals process should be in place for determining whether or not the qualification is adequate. Also, would there be a difficulty with third level courses undertaken in Irish institutions of higher education by Irish citizens where the awarding authority is not Irish? These are not straightforward questions and need to be teased out a little further as we go through this process.

At present, we have two university constituencies of three seats each, both of which have their own register of electors. With a widening of the franchise, it would need to be decided whether each institution would hold its own register or whether there should be one centralised register and how such a register or registers would work in practice. There is no provision in the Bill for a returning officer for the proposed new higher education constituency. Consideration would need to be given as to who would hold this role or if there would be more than one. The Constitution provides that Seanad elections must be conducted by postal ballot. Extending the franchise as proposed would lead to a significant increase in the number of postal ballots than is the case at present.

I note that costings for the Bill need to be examined further.

I raise these issues absolutely not for the sake of finding fault with the Bill but to demonstrate the range of issues we now need to examine as we address the Bill as it goes through the Houses. Once again, I thank Senators for all their contributions and acknowledge the contributions that were made this afternoon.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Cuirim fáilte arís roimh an Aire Stáit. I also welcome to the Gallery Mary and Sarah Halford, who are neighbours of mine from home. They are here for the next Bill, but I am delighted to see them. I support the next Bill and hope that it does not have as long a passage as the reforms in the Bill before us. The latter Bill goes back, as colleagues have said, to the seventh amendment to the Constitution, which was passed by referendum by the people in July 1979. I noticed that a number of taoisigh were mentioned during the discussion. In 1979 Jack Lynch was Taoiseach and Margaret Thatcher had just become Prime Minister. We are going to see another Prime Minister across the water in the UK by the time this legislation will be enacted.

I get the Minister of State's points, but we had this debate in this House two years ago. At the time his colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, for whom I have great respect, came in and outlined some of the challenges and stated that the Government's priority was the electoral reform legislation, which we all supported, and having the electoral commission and all the necessary support measures put in place. I pay tribute to the Department and the staff for being able to do that.On that front, we can say "mission accomplished". Now that the Government has done all that the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, committed to two years ago when he asked for a year so that the Department could consider it, the Minister of State should have come back today with the answers to the questions we raised at that time.

This legislation is quite simple. It aims to establish a single, six-seat constituency for university Senators. There were proposals for an opt-in provision, as Senator O'Loughlin mentioned, which would avoid the sending out of lots of postal votes unnecessarily. People would have had to register to vote. What I am disappointed about is the fact that the Department has not done a lot of thinking-----

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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We should acknowledge the fact that the British Prime Minister has gone-----

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I just heard, yes.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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She has resigned.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The point I would make is that now is the time to act on this. It is one of the tasks that should be put to the Electoral Commission. Under the legislation, it has a role in this. Senator Buttimer mentioned the Pontifical University at Maynooth but the Bill provides that it is up to the Minister to designate the institutions. The Minister can designate which higher education institutions qualify. The Bill also answers the questions around those who are awarded by overseas institutions and whether they should be designated. That would be a matter for the Minister under the legislation. That is no different to other legislation under which the Minister is allowed to designate the bodies that are granting awards and so on. Any awards that are designated level 8 or above within the system would be a good starting point but we can certainly debate going beyond that.

The crux of this legislation is to give effect to a decision of the people that was taken 43 years ago. It is also about reforming this Chamber. It is something that is relatively easy to do in the context of the broader issue of Seanad reform. As Senator Buttimer said, there is broad agreement that this is something we can do in advance of the next Seanad elections.

We are awaiting a Supreme Court judgment in the Heneghan case. That may be directly relevant to this legislation. We will be moving pretty soon, with the agreement of the Leader of the House and the Department, to the Committee Stage debate on this legislation. Given the fact that the Department has achieved all of its goals with regard to the Electoral Commission and other areas and that two years ago the Minister of State committed to firming up the Department's position on some of the administrative issues within this legislation, I hope that within the next two to three months, when we deal with the remaining Stages of the Bill, the Government will clarify its position on these matters. I also hope that we can return to the people by the time of the next Seanad election and say that we have delivered this element of reform.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Next Tuesday, 25 October.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.