Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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With the House's permission, we move to Senators Aidan Davitt and Robbie Gallagher who are sharing their time and have two minutes each.

Aidan Davitt (Fianna Fail)
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We are splitting the time.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Senators have two minutes each.

Aidan Davitt (Fianna Fail)
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It is two and a half minutes. We have five minutes.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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No, the Senators only have four.

Aidan Davitt (Fianna Fail)
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Five.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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If the Senators agree not to make a supplementary contribution, they can have two and a half minutes each.

Aidan Davitt (Fianna Fail)
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No, we will take two minutes each or as near we can. I welcome the Minister of State to the House. On behalf of the Fianna Fáil Senators and councillors, it is with a heavy heart we meet. There was a time that when Ministers gave a commitment, it meant something. Unfortunately, the Minister of State now presides over what is now the Department of broken promises. During the Fine Gael leadership campaign, the then Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government, Deputy Simon Coveney, sat where the Minister of State sits now and promised councillors €5,000 in expenses annually and a pay increase of €1,000 starting on 1 July. He was adamant about the time. We were told it was written into legislation. The Minister of State will be aware this has not happened.

I appreciate that the Minister of State has only got his feet under the desk and we wish him the best in his role. I am aware of his previous work and I know he is a hard worker and comes with that reputation. I have great hopes. I implore him to give me a date for when the pay increase will start. That is the simple question he is here to answer today. When will the expenses kick in and will there be back pay to the date from which the increases were promised?

We are haemorrhaging talent from councils. In the Minister of State's electoral area, a Fianna Fáil councillor was replaced in recent days. In my own county of Westmeath, there was a Fianna Fáil co-option in the previous week.

The week before that there was a Fianna Fáil co-option in Offaly. Those are only three of which I am aware. I am sure it has happened in other parties too. I implore the Minister of State to take a stand on this issue in his new Department. I ask that he would hold his head high when he leaves office and say he did the right thing by councillors.

Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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I, too, welcome the Minister of State to the Chamber. It is disappointing in many ways that we are back here discussing this same issue despite, as my colleague, Senator Davitt, outlined, the promise that was made about its resolution. I am sure the Minister of State will agree we are fortunate to have so many hard-working local authority members throughout the country. The problem is due to changes made by Mr. Phil Hogan when he was a Minister. The workload of county councillors and the geographic area which they have to cover is now, despite their best efforts, nearly impossible. In my constituency of Cavan and Monaghan, in the past 18 months to two years we have had a turnover of three or four councillors. All of them cite the same reason, which is that they simply cannot do the work of a local authority member properly and hold down a job at the same time. I am sure this does not come as a foreign language to the Minister of State. I am sure he has the finger on the pulse himself and that he knows what I am saying is correct.

We are less than 18 months away from the next local elections. I believe I speak on behalf of all local authority members and Senators when I plead that the issues alluded to by my colleague, Senator Davitt, should be grappled with once and for all. Otherwise we will continue to lose good people. As a former local authority member, I am convinced there is no element of democracy closer to the public than the county councillor. Unless we do something to address the issue, we will lose more people. I spoke to many county councillors who are seriously considering their position because they cannot afford to do the work and travel to regional and local meetings while holding down a job at the same time. I therefore request earnestly that the Minister of State grasp the issue and address it once and for all.

John Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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This is a good opportunity to outline the current position with regard to councillors' pay and conditions. I thank Senators Davitt and Gallagher for raising it. I think Senator Davitt was a little melodramatic in calling the Department the Department of broken promises. A commitment was given and it is still intended that it would be honoured. There was a time not that long ago when the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government, as it is now called, would be able to make the decision itself, but now it requires joint approval with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. That is where the issue rests at the moment. In terms of dates and times, it is my intention that it would be finalised before Hallowe'en and that it will be backdated to when it was originally due to be implemented.

The Senators are correct in terms of councillors leaving office. I have come across it myself. It is occurring much more regularly in recent years. The major contributor is the workload involved while trying to continue with a full-time job or rearing a family. These are huge issues. I recently met Women for Election with a view to looking at some of the examples that were mentioned, and I also met some councillors in my constituency. Senator Davitt mentioned the retirement of Councillor Anne Ahern in Carlow, who received a significant promotion. I am not sure she would have been able to continue anyway. However, I acknowledge her work in Carlow County Council over many years. She was a very effective councillor.

Senator Gallagher raised the anomaly between city councillors and county councillors. It is proposed that the city councillors will get the same increase as county councillors.

Effective local government structures are an essential part of our democracy. I was a child councillor myself 20 years ago. In turn, effective local government cannot be achieved without the heard work and commitment of elected members in service of their communities. A range of financial supports are in place to assist councillors in their work. These include the representational payment, fixed annual expenses, a travel and subsistence allowance, a mobile phone allowance, a retirement gratuity and conference and training provision. A Programme for a Partnership Government includes a commitment to review the supports provided to councillors in consultation with representative bodies. The former Minister, Deputy Simon Coveney, met representatives of the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, and the Local Authority Members Association to discuss the view of their members that positive consideration should be given to improving the range of supports available.

In January this year, taking account of the considerable additional workload councillors have experienced since 2014 and the reforms of local government, the former Minister announced two important changes to support councillors in their role as public representatives. First, a new allowance of €1,000 per annum is to be introduced in recognition of the work councillors undertake in carrying out their reserved functions at municipal district level, and second, a new vouched annual expenses allowance of up to a maximum of €5,000 is to be introduced, which councillors may choose to opt for in place of the existing unvouched rate of approximately €2,500. It is proposed that the allowable expenditure categories and documentation requirements of this new vouched system would be aligned, as appropriate, with the arrangements in place for Oireachtas Members. While it was intended that these new measures would be implemented with effect from 1 July, the Association of Irish Local Government requested that further consideration be given to the terms and conditions that would apply. I subsequently met a delegation from the AILG shortly after I assumed office myself to understand its views on the matter. A particular concern raised, which I acknowledged, was to ensure appropriate recognition of the workload of all councillors at sub-county level throughout the country.

As Senators will appreciate, the introduction of measures of this kind requires the amendment of regulations made under section 142 of the Local Government Act 2001, which requires the consent of the Minister for Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform. Draft amending regulations have been prepared and are under consideration between the two Departments. While the matter is taking longer than intended, it is important that the measures are implemented from the outset in a manner that is fair to all councillors.

I thank the Senators for raising this matter and ask for their continued patience while procedural matters associated with the measures outlined are finalised. I reiterate the intention that this will be resolved before Hallowe'en.

Aidan Davitt (Fianna Fail)
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I will speak on my own behalf and on behalf of other Senators, including Senator Mark Daly who got tied up on the way to the meeting here. I was only talking to him a few moments ago. He just could not make it here today. I appreciate the Minister of State's answer and his honesty. He has given us a timeframe, which we did not have before now. We were in the dark. I know the Minister of State met representatives from the AILG and that they found the meeting quite productive. We welcome the commitment to introduce it by Hallowe'en. It would be great if it happened. We certainly would welcome it. We are delighted to hear about the backpay as well and that expenses will be examined. Will the anomaly between county councillors and city councillors be sorted out in the same timeframe?

John Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Yes, that is the intention. It is part of the reason for the delay.

Aidan Davitt (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that. I know that this is also close to the heart of the Leas-Chathaoirleach, a man who has worked hard on it over the years.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Had the Senator another question? The clock is running.

Aidan Davitt (Fianna Fail)
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The Leas-Chathaoirleach will not be harsh on one of his own. I appreciate the Minister of State's clarification on that point. I was concerned about reports in the media about the councillor who was on maternity leave. I am sure the Minister of State saw it. Has he any thoughts on it?

John Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I will not comment on individual cases.

Aidan Davitt (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that.

John Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I think it is a broader question about how we pay local government members and ensure the same benefits that accrue to other workers accrue to them. Following on from this decision, there will be some consideration as to further reforms for members in local authorities to bring them in line with every other public servant, which is effectively what they are.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State and the Senators. We all appreciate that it is an important issue.