Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. I have raised this matter on a number of occasions. From my file I see that in February 2013, I raised the matter of the two Labour Court recommendations that gratuity payments be made in lieu of pension entitlements to a cohort of home help workers that are funded in the main by the HSE. In the intervening period, we have had some changes in the health service. I have continuously corresponded with the Minister for Health, Deputy Varadkar, on this matter. In February of this year, we got a little bit of light when he informed me following further correspondence to him:

My Department in conjunction with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the HSE has initiated a review of the matter involving the Department's legal advisers. It is expected that this will conclude in March 2015.

That did not happen. I raised the matter again as a Commencement matter in the Seanad. I was told that in line with the discussions that were happening around the new pay deal with the public and Civil Service, it was being looked at again and that a conclusion would be reached by September 2015. I am obviously very anxious that these low-paid workers get what they are entitled to. In some instances, it will run into a few thousand euro. It is not an insignificant sum. I think everyone will agree that home help workers carry out a crucial role on the front line of our health service in caring for our sick, elderly and infirm at home. I do not think we can allow a situation to persist where what the Labour Court recommended in 2009, one of two recommendations I might add, that they are entitled to these payments, should be withheld any further.

I hope the Minister of State will have some good news for me today. We were told that this issue would be effectively resolved by September 2015. It is not a substantial sum of money. From the calculations my party colleagues and I have done, we are looking at a figure of between €12 million and €15 million countrywide but it might not even be that much. The recommendation has been made and the workers are entitled to this money.

I thank the Minister of State for her presence and look forward to her response.

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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I thank Senator O'Brien for raising this issue which I went through with his colleague, Deputy Billy Kelleher, recently. The Senator's question on home helps is specific and he has clearly stuck to his question but the issue has a wider context. I thank him for raising the issue in the House. He will of course be aware that the issue of paying gratuities to a particular group of home help workers was considered by the parties at the recent public sector talks that were facilitated by the Labour Relations Commission. The Minister and I believe it is important that we do all we can to ensure that those members of our elderly population who wish to stay in their own homes and communities are supported and facilitated to do so. Also, I want to ensure that we support in every way we can the return of those who have required acute hospital care back into their homes when they are fit for discharge.

In 2015, the HSE will spend €330 million on home care packages and home help services, including €185 million to provide 10.3 million home help hours. As the Senator rightly pointed out, these people form an invaluable group in terms of services delivered within the wider community. Home help services are provided mainly by HSE directly employed staff. A home help contract introduced for HSE employees in 2014 followed on from a lengthy consultative process under the auspices of both the LRC and the Labour Court. The annualised contract which was accepted is fundamental to both parties as it matches the actual workforce to the changing needs of the service as well as giving certainty to employees by way of guaranteed weekly minimum paid hours. However, in the greater Dublin area, as well as in Wicklow and Clare, home help services are provided by voluntary providers on behalf of the HSE. It is this group of home help workers that I shall focus on now and I know the Senator has a particular interest in this group. Voluntary providers are funded under section 39 of the Health Act 2004. The HSE has in place service level agreements with these providers that sets out the level of home help service to be provided in respect of the grant to the individual organisations and requirements in terms of standards of care. As the home helps employed by these section 39 organisations are not HSE employees, the HSE has no role in determining the salaries or other terms and conditions applying to these staff, including pension arrangements. Accordingly, such arrangements offered by individual providers will vary.

Access by home helps, who work in voluntary organisations, to a pension has been the subject of a number of Labour Court recommendations involving SIPTU, IMPACT and the HSE. Implementation of a Labour Court recommendation on the payment of a gratuity to the home helps employed by the section 39 organisations has been hindered in recent years by the budgetary situation, a situation that I know the Senator will understand. The matter is further complicated by the fact that the HSE is not the employer and, therefore, has no role to play.

As I noted in my opening comments, this issue was discussed during the recent Lansdowne Road talks in the context of which a side agreement was made. The parties reached agreement on a process for giving a more formal consideration to the matter and to establish, in the short-term, a working group to examine a number of issues, including gratuity payments for home helps. This process will now be progressed following the recent ratification of the Lansdowne Road agreement. Initial contacts have taken place between the HSE and the relevant staff associations. It is expected that the first meeting will take place during this month of October. The precise time for the duration of the work involved will be agreed at that stage which is likely to be approximately three months.

I want to acknowledge the valuable contribution that home help workers make in our communities and the fundamental role they play in ensuring that our growing elderly population are facilitated as much as possible to live as independently as they can. I hope that this is the beginning of the process. I also hope that the Senator's long and considered correspondence with the Department of Health, more than anyone else, will in fact contribute to an outcomes that we can all live with.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State and I appreciate the response. I know it came from the Department and not specifically from herself. However, I am very disappointed with the response and I shall quickly tell her why. I know she will raise the following matter and, in fairness, she has done so before. The HSE and the Department have broken every timeframe up to now.On 9 June I was told the first meeting would take place within four weeks - that is in writing from the Minister for Health, Deputy Leo Varadkar - and it was scheduled to conclude its business by 30 September 2015. Would the HSE and the Department allow this to happen if these were highly-paid hospital consultants? Is it that these are the lowest paid workers within our health service that they are not being given the priority? I know the Minister of State would have a great deal of sympathy and support for these workers. All that is happening - I mean no disrespect to the Minister of State as this is the response she has been given by the Department - is that we are being strung along big time. Every single response, going back to early 2013, referred to timeframes, to an understanding of what I was saying and so on. The Minister, Deputy Varadkar, was explicit in the timeframes he gave to me on 9 June and this now kicks it into next year. God knows where any of us will be at that stage. I was trying to get it concluded before the end of this Dáil and Seanad term. I ask the Minister of State to use her good offices to tell the Department officials and the HSE that this is not acceptable. This is a small number of people who have been earning €8, €9, €10 and €12 per hour, some of whom are due €5,000, €6,000, €7,000 or €8,000 back. It is a significant amount of money due to them. They have been incredibly patient up to now.

I am really disappointed with this response. I intend to take it up again and will write to the Minister, Deputy Leo Varadkar, asking why he is permitting the Department to continually miss deadlines and set new deadlines which I know will be missed. I am seeking the Minister of State's assistance to tell them this is not on, because it affects low-paid workers all across the country. They only asking for what they are entitled to. I realise there have been budgetary constraints. We realised that in 2013 when I first raised the issue. We have been incredibly patient but I will not be patient anymore. I seek the Minister of State's direct intervention and assistance to put a fire under a couple of people within the Department and get them to sort it out. It is not a whole hill of beans; this can be very quickly.

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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The significant part of the answer refers to the conclusion of the Lansdowne Road agreement. This issue needs to be discussed to reach agreement on it in terms of the section 39s. While they are funded in the main by the HSE, it is not the direct employer. I take on board what the Senator is saying. Depending on the circumstances and the urgency of any issue, and depending on who is involved and who are direct beneficiaries, things move slowly or quickly. What is significant about the answer is the fact that the Lansdowne Road agreement has concluded. That should be the benchmark in terms of the three-month process as and from October. The clock is running. Most definitely, I will convey the Senator's concerns to the people involved.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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That is much appreciated.