David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I wish to share two minutes with Senator Craughwell, so the Cathaoirleach might let me know when my two minutes are up.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I will.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister to the House. I have raised this issue with her previously. The last time we discussed it was a couple of months before the Christmas recess in the aftermath of Waterford Institute of Technology, WIT's withdrawal from the process of developing a technological university for the south east via the planned merger with Carlow Institute of Technology.

Waterford is the only major city across the island that does not have a university. The south east is the only region without a university. It is important for the people and economy of the region that this problem be solved once and for all. The Government gave a commitment to deliver on this issue, but the process is stalled and in trouble. The Department and the Minister do not understand the seriousness of the impasse following WIT's withdrawal. The institute seems stubborn in its analysis of the merger as not being realistic or workable. The Minister has appointed Mr. Michael Kelly to resolve the issue.

My question has three elements. I hope that Mr. Kelly considers all of the options, the first of which is to continue with the merger, the second of which is to consider a new configuration of the two institutes - new possibilities may have opened up in that regard - and the third is for WIT to go it alone. Is Mr. Kelly considering all of these options or is he simply sticking with the Government's plan, namely, the merger of Carlow IT and WIT? If this plan is not a runner for all of the players involved, what is plan B?

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. Before I discuss the technological university, I compliment the Minister and thank her for her ongoing engagement with the junior certificate issue. I am sure these are difficult times for everyone involved.

I have serious concerns about the way in which the Waterford-Carlow technological university project is being handled, for example, the lack of consultation with staff in both institutions and the uncertainty about the vision and mission of a south-eastern university. Like Senator Cullinane, I have a difficulty with forcing a merger between the two institutes before they can seek registration as a technological university. It is my understanding that, whereas WIT has long been preparing to establish itself as a university and, for all intents and purposes, is ready to go now or will be within a short time, Carlow IT is playing catch-up. Taking the latter on board could set the project back as much as five years, which would not be a good idea.

I have concerns about the financing required in such a merger. We have been told that the institutes must finance it from within their current budgets by seeking deeper efficiencies. The institutes of technology are struggling, having had their backs broken by serious budget cuts in recent years.

In the event of a merger, what guarantees are there that there will not be a rationalisation that will impact negatively on the programmes on offer in both regions, but particularly Carlow? Programmes may move to Waterford, thereby disadvantaging people in Carlow.

I have concerns but would like to see Senator Cullinane's third option of WIT going it alone, with Carlow to join later.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I thank the Senators for the opportunity to address this issue and I appreciate that Senator Cullinane has raised the matter before.

As Members will be aware, we are rolling out a higher education reform programme that will significantly enhance the quality of higher education for the country and its regions. A high priority is the consolidation of the technological sector, helping to create new multi-campus technological universities of significant scale and strength where merging groups of institutes reach a high performance bar before attaining this new status. Three consortiums have formally entered that process. Two of them in Dublin and Munster are significantly advanced and submitted detailed plans for merger to the Higher Education Authority earlier this summer. The independent expert panel appointed by the HEA to assess the plans has given the green light to the two consortiums to proceed towards merger and application for technological university status.

As Members will be aware, before Christmas Waterford IT announced it was suspending activities relating to a merger with IT Carlow, which could lead to the creation of a technological university in the south east. This Government is committed to the creation of a multi-campus technological university for the south east, as outlined in the programme for Government. The process and criteria to attain this new status were published in early 2012. One of the criteria was to merge, an aspect which was clearly understood at the time.

I announced before Christmas a new process to reinvigorate the technological university of the south east project. Senator Craughwell mentioned staff in his contribution and I can assure him that staff will be included in the consultation. I will check to ensure that has happened as intended. I appointed Mr. Michael Kelly to lead a process of consultation with the governing bodies, staff and students in Waterford Institute of Technology and Carlow Institute of Technology, as well as regional stakeholders, in order to develop a shared vision for a technological university in the south east and to serve the region. As former chairman of the Higher Education Authority, Mr. Kelly is well known within the sector. He has also played a leading role in chairing the consortium that has sought to establish a technological university in the Dublin region. Therefore, he has an in-depth knowledge of what is needed to create such an institution. He will be asked to report in the coming weeks on the outcome of the process in which he is currently engaged. We firmly believe that multi-campus technological universities will make a positive contribution to third level education in Ireland and to their regions.

I reiterate that the concept of a merger is one of the criteria that was set out and agreed back in 2012. When I met the representatives of the two institutions, Carlow and Waterford, they gave me to understand that they accepted that a merger was one of the criteria. Subsequently, the Waterford institute withdrew.

Mr. Kelly will report to me soon. I appreciate that the Senators have expressed to me concerns that have been brought to their attention. Both institutes know that merger is part of the criteria that were laid down from the very early stages. I hope that we will see progress in the near future.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I find it incredible that there is still to this date no independent validation of where both institutes are as a collective in regard to reaching the guidelines, targets and benchmarks which were set. Validation should have been done from day one.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It is part of the process.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Waterford IT has withdrawn from the process. We still have not been given a report. People have been told by people in Waterford and elsewhere that Carlow IT is way behind. Give us the facts. From day one there should have been an independent validation of the entire process. The problem is that was never done.

I specifically wrote to the Minister, as an Oireachtas Member, seeking a meeting to discuss this issue. I got a reply to say that, due to earlier commitments, she was unable to meet me. I cannot understand her reply because this is such an important issue. She was able to come in here today to take this Commencement matter. Why is she not in a position to meet an Oireachtas Member who lives in the south east, who is passionate about this issue, who wants to move it on, who wants to be supportive, and who wants to talk to her about my real concerns and those of the people who have come to me with these issues? I ask her to reconsider a meeting. It is important that she listens to all the voices in the region and to work constructively with the Opposition on this issue. Without independent validation on where the collective is at, we will stumble from one crisis to the next and will leave this issue unresolved. I ask the Minister to take my comments on board.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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There is ongoing validation. There are very specific criteria on numbers of students, numbers of research students, the merger, etc. There is a whole series of criteria.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Where is it?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The criteria was published a long time ago.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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The criteria have been but I am talking about the benchmark.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Minister, please, without interruption.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The Higher Education Authority is the body concerned.

These issues are discussed by the HEA. Obviously, Mr. Kelly is working on dealing with the two institutions with regard to their meeting the criteria. There is no secrecy about what the criteria are; it is just that they have not yet been met.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I understand the criteria. I am asking about the position of the institutes in terms of meeting the criteria.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The position is that they have not reached the next stage yet.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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At what stage are they?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The other two-----

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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They have not been given anything.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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If the Senator stops interrupting, I might tell him. The other two consortiums - the one in Dublin and the one in Cork and Kerry - have reached the next stage. The proposal was brought to the board of the HEA, which has assessed it and decided on it. There is an outside body, separate from the HEA, that considers the proposals and makes a recommendation. The HEA examines that and approves it. It has approved the two consortiums for movement to the next stage. Unfortunately, Waterford and Carlow have not even got to the stage of making a proposal to go to the next stage. That is the current position, and we really need engagement.

I am sorry I have not met the Senator yet. I have a very busy diary. I appreciate that the Senator wants to meet me, but I have not been able to do so as yet. Generally, I try to meet public representatives in so far as I can. Mr. Kelly is due to report to us soon.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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The Minister has not met Oireachtas Members either, which I find incredible.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I am not ignoring the Senator.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Very quickly-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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There is no provision for further contributions.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Am I correct in believing that if the merger goes ahead and is successful, there will still be no guarantee that technological university status will be awarded?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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There is another stage to go through. The other two have not got to that yet.