Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Civil Defence Bill 2012 - Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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There are many problems in the country and it is a pity more business is not being taken. That calls into the question the Government's true agenda and whether it is able to run the country in the way it has been elected to do.

I refer to the mortgage to rent scheme, a pillar of Labour Party policy. Labour Party Senators were among the first to recommend such an approach, although I recommended it in a report for the Joint Committee on Social Protection three years ago. The reality is, as Mr. Justice Dunne said in the High Court recently, the scheme gives false hope to those in mortgage difficulty. Is not working out; it is a sham. The record showed last summer that only one transaction had been completed. Last week when Bank of Ireland officials appeared before the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, they informed us 13 transactions had been completed or were being looked at, yet Labour Party representatives all over the country are issuing statements about the scheme offering great hope. Leaflets about the scheme are being dropped through letter boxes. People are attending my clinics saying the scheme will save them, but, unfortunately, it will not.

The Government parties are playing with the emotions of those in mortgage difficulty by making such loud noises about the scheme when a High Court judge has had cause to say it is not working out. It is worrying that the scheme is the only response from the Government to protect those in mortgage difficulty. Everything else in place was introduced by the previous Government. I invite Government Members to outline what is in place for those in mortgage difficulty that was not in place under the previous Government. They will only find the mortgage to rent scheme. At least one person in five is in mortgage difficulty and time after time, the Government has taken the side of the banks, as we witnessed yesterday in the debate on the Personal Insolvency Bill 2012. With the usual wave of the hand, the Minister for Justice and Equality said that, unfortunately, normal commercial contract law applied to those in mortgage difficulty and that they had to pay their way. However, normal commercial contract law does not apply to many other groups and, in particular, the banks and the Government parties have given them a veto. They abolished mortgage interest relief, thus forcing people to negotiate with their banks without giving them any help. The Banks have also been allowed to run amok with interest rates. The mortgage to rent scheme is a public relations exercise for the Labour Party.

I propose an amendment to the Order of Business that the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, come to the House to discuss the failure of the mortgage to rent scheme and outline to the people, including those with mortgage difficulties, what hope there is for them, and apologise to them for having given false hope and putting in place a scheme that simply has not worked out, as a High Court judge said this week.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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While I am sure Senator Thomas Byrne has read the Regling-Watson report, he has obviously forgotten it, like most of the Members on the other side of the House. It was quite clear in stating 70% of the country's financial problems were related directly to the policies of the former Government, to which the Senator was affiliated. He was a cheerleader for the breed of people-----

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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It does not state that.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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Some 70% of the problems were caused by the policies of the former Government, according to the independent Regling-Watson report. Denial is a great art.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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What help is that to people with mortgage difficulties? The Senator's party is now in power and mine was voted out because of what had occurred.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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The Government has taken the burning torch from the Senator's party. It is burning stronger now and we must ensure this will continue to be the case. The Senator and his colleagues come to the House and tell us we are doing nothing for distressed mortgage holders. One newspaper informs us today that there may be a ray of hope for those who took out 100% mortgages. What is being engaged in is another fire-fighting exercise by the Government and the people.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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What has that to do with the Government? It is a private transaction between an English bank and another foreign bank.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Jimmy Harte to continue, without interruption.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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The Senator may interrupt all he likes.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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It has nothing to do with the Government.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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I did not interrupt the Senator.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I will say some home truths.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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Had the Senator not been on his phone, he might have listened to what I had to say.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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We should respect each other. I hope those who have 100% mortgages and may be in serious negative equity will be given some glimmer of hope. However, I express caution as the article to which I referred refers to the diminished role of the Central Bank regarding the many mortgage and loan books sold by financial institutions to outside venture capital funds. I strongly recommend that the Minister examine the protection of family homes under threat where loan and mortgage books are sold to outside interests.

With regard to the ongoing tragic case in Galway, we should ask the Minister for Justice and Equality to outline the position of the coroner and the Coroner's Court such that an investigation may be expedited. There is much hearsay and there are many opinions on who is responsible for information in the public domain. I ask that the Minister be invited to the House to clarify whether the coroner has a role in order that we can reach a reasonable and satisfactory conclusion and the husband can rest peacefully at night knowing the law of the land is on his side and that he can obtain justice for his late wife.

David Norris (Independent)
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Following on from what Senator Jimmy Harte said - reasonably - I would like to say a few words on the interview that I am sure we all saw last night. I had not intended to speak on this subject but was so greatly moved by the dignity, composure and solemn grief of Mr. Halappanavar that I feel bound to say something. Two points, in particular, made by Mr. Halappanavar really struck home. He reiterated that when his wife was desperately, mortally ill and when both begged that the procedure that might have saved her life be carried out, they were told this was a Catholic country. Once again, it is deeply offensive that the preservation of some kind of abstract system should be put ahead of the life of a living human being, wife, daughter and sister. It is shocking. Mr. Halappanavar spoke of the bigger life. That is a very simple concept, but it is telling.

Some years ago citizens were misled into voting as they did in a referendum that I considered was wrong at the time. It is wrong to second-guess the people, but they were misled. I remember saying in this House that I found it profoundly shocking that the same right to life would be given to the fertilised ovum as to a fully developed human being who might be a wife, mother, sister or daughter. What are the people in question - principally men, including men in churches and celibate men in the case of one church - thinking of when they put the same value on a tiny organism with potential, for which I would have respect, as on people of realised potential? As somebody who is strongly pro-life - I want this to echo in the Chamber - I recognise that there are circumstances such as those we have just witnessed in which, sadly, the question of abortion must be raised and faced. We have failed significantly to face it. It is wrong that the language should be taken over. Who are the "unborn"? It is like the "undead" or being non-Catholic in this country. I feel very strongly about this issue. From where did this come? It came from a group that was strongly motivated. I am sure the group's members' motivations were, in their own minds, very good, but they are featuring again. What is the Iona Institute? What is its background? How is it funded? From where do its members come? Are they elected?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is the Senator seeking a debate on the issue?

David Norris (Independent)
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Perhaps the Minister for Justice and Equality or another Government spokesperson with seniority such as the Minister for Health might come to the House to answer some of these questions.

A group which I believe is entitled Oireachtas Members for Human Dignity has been established. We are all for human dignity, although we take different views on it. After I left this Chamber yesterday, I was watching the monitor in my office and heard one of my colleagues refer to a very distinguished professor as being "pro-abortion". I do not know of anybody who is pro-abortion as such, but there are those who are realistic. It is clear to me from evidence that the people, their President, the Independent Members and the smaller parties in the Houses are well ahead of the Government in this area.

As a victim of a bogus website set up by the kinds of people to whom I refer during a recent election campaign, I call on those who are responsible and the makers of unsolicited telephone calls purporting to come from Galway hospital to desist at once. Who knows who may be picking up the telephone? It could be somebody who has had a miscarriage, an elderly person or somebody who is emotionally unstable. I ask those responsible to stop.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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In recent times the House has frequently discussed the need for job creation and protection. I ask the Minister for Finance to recognise, when framing the budget, that the motor industry in Ireland employs in the region of 40,000 people. I ask him to ensure the budget will not reduce this number in the coming year. I appeal to him to consider, in particular, the introduction of a mid-year vehicle registration system. Rather than having every purchase registered at beginning of the year, one could encourage sales in the second half of the year. This issue has been debated in the public domain recently. Doing what I suggest would provide a mid-year stimulus for the motor industry. Traditionally, there has been a significant number of sales in January and very little activity later in the year. It is believed that instead of purchasing a car in the second half of a given year, one is better off waiting until the beginning of the following year.

If there was a change of number plate from which it was easily identifiable that the car was purchased in the second half of the year, it would stimulate some activity in the trade. I understand there is some equalising to be done with the vehicle registration tax system regarding older vehicles versus newer models. When restructuring the system, I hope the Minister will not make it a disincentive to change one's vehicle in the coming year. I also appeal to him to ensure the incentives already in place for electric and hybrid vehicles remain after the budget. The car industry employs 40,000 people. It has seen a drop from the 2007 figure of 50,000. We want to ensure we retain the current employment levels in the trade in 2013.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I watched the programme last night and saw the dignity of a man who had lost the woman he loved. This country needs leadership on this issue which is sadly lacking from the Government at this time. The President's comments yesterday of what needs to happen is showing the leadership the country requires when one considers the omnishambles of the Government's handling of the Galway case. While some would criticise the President for an intervention of this kind, I would not as it is vital there is leadership in the country on such an issue.

Will the Leader organise a debate on how we treat our citizens abroad? Of the 33 countries in the Council of Europe, only four do not give the vote to their citizens abroad, Ireland being one of them. At the Global Irish Economic Forum, we asked our diaspora to assist us in our recovery. While we ask them to assist us, we do not utilise their talents. Craig Barrett, a former chief executive officer of Intel, offered to serve for free on a State board but has not been appointed to date. Neither has Niall Fitzgerald, the former chairman of Unilever, one of the world's largest companies, been approached to serve on State boards after a similar offer.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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A phone is interfering with the sound system.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It is not mine. Will we have a debate on this issue? The programme for Government promised to clean up State boards and all previous appointees would be asked to resign in six months. After the Global Irish Economic Forum, we had these offers to serve for free when other countries would have paid hundreds of thousands of euro to have them. However, none of them has been asked to serve. Instead, we see the same party hacks being appointed to State boards, yet Craig Barrett and Niall Fitzgerald, global leaders, have not been approached by the Government to serve on State boards.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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I watched last night's interview with Praveen Halappanavar. When we see a man having to share his grief in a public way and going through the last moments of his wife's life with a nation, then we know something is awry. This man should be allowed to have his grief in private. It is not the normal way to have to be on television explaining everything that happened and justifying his position. I find this deeply offensive. At this point, we need for him to have clarity and comfort and for that to happen in a wise way. The only way is for the Minister for Health to consider an independent public inquiry. As I said yesterday, there must have been a paper trail and some sort of local risk review group put in place after Savita's death. In two weeks Mr. Halappanavar heard nothing from the hospital, by which, of course, he is amazed and surprised. I am too. That a woman could die this way and there is a silence about it does not seem correct. I am asking for an independent public inquiry in order that no one else will have to go through what Mr. Halappanavar had to do last night. He said, in his own generosity, he was doing it for others. I believe him. The Minister for Health must explain where the local risk review group's report is. That report must have taken place in the days after Savita's death.

Kathryn Reilly (Sinn Fein)
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I propose an amendment to the Order of Business, that non-Government motion No. 10 be taken today with the Minister for Social Protection. The motion calls on the Minister to amend the criteria for community employment schemes and extend it to under 25s. We all know the massive contribution that community employment schemes make to our local communities and the enormous benefits for their participants. There are exceptions already where under 25s can participate in some schemes. However, such is the scale of youth unemployment - it stands at 30% and does not include those who have left the State - that a change of criteria is required. The schemes were originally established to target the long-term unemployed and other specific groups, such as Travellers.

At this time, when there is such high youth unemployment and when 45% of those under 25 who are jobless are long-term unemployed, we need to amend our existing labour market policies to reflect the changing landscape of unemployment. We need to use whatever resources we have to tackle youth unemployment. The use of community employment schemes would be a valuable measure and would be part of a much broader range of policy actions that could make an impact on our scandalously high level of youth unemployment. Will the Leader accept this amendment and take the motion today?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is that No. 19, motion No. 10?

Kathryn Reilly (Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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All of us have been contacted by students recently who have not received their student grants. I know work is being done on this matter but it is important, as we come closer to Christmas, that it is speedily resolved. Some of us met with the vocational education committees this morning and they echoed the problems in this area.

I welcome the allocation of ¤1.9 million for the N16 Sligo-Enniskillen road which runs through north Leitrim and Glenfarne. This is good news for the county this morning as we have been working for several years to get this road upgraded.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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We have had emotional language in the Chamber dealing with the Department of Health. I wish to raise another urgent and scandalous issue. On October 21, Emily O'Reilly, the Ombudsman, decided to exercise her right to make a special report to the Dáil and the Seanad because of an unsatisfactory response from the Department of Health and the Minister. It deserves our urgent consideration because citizens over the age of 66 years have been denied and continue to be denied access to the mobility allowance scheme, even though this is illegal. It is not fair or just to senior citizens. As the Ombudsman stated in her report, is it because these citizens are too old to be equal?

The ramifications of this case go beyond justice for the senior citizens who are being illegally denied a service they are entitled to access.

The first serious implication is that the rule of law need no longer apply based on an administrative decision by the Department or Minister, for in this case the Department and the Minister know their actions are illegal, but have refused to accept the Ombudsman's recommendations and give older people their entitlement on the grounds that it would create liabilities that the State could not afford. The disregard for the rule of law involved in this approach is breathtaking and scandalous. It may well be done on the assumption that the older citizens involved do not have the resources or aggressiveness to challenge the illegality in the courts.

The second most serious implication is the contempt shown for the Office of the Ombudsman and the demeaning of her role by the failure of the Department of Health to abide by the commitments made to her to bring the operation of the scheme into compliance by the end of October. I raise this matter in light of the emergency supplementary budget that will address the ¤400 million deficit in the budget of the Department of Health. Will the money raised in the supplementary budget go to pay the mobility allowance to the relevant people over 66 years? The treatment of this group of citizens is absolutely savage. I want an answer. Will this supplementary budget go towards the scheme and provide for what they are legally entitled to?

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I, too, wish to comment on the meeting this morning between Oireachtas Members and members of VECs throughout the country, especially with regard to student grants from SUSI. At one time the third level grant applications process was overseen by the VECs and local authorities. In the months of the year when the pressure was on and applications had to be processed, staff were redeployed from other administrative roles to work on the third level grant applications process. When the body concerned is an island, as is the case with SUSI, this is simply not possible. I am aware of one situation in Cork in which a student from Clare has been informed that she must move out because she is unable to pay the second quarter moneys due for her accommodation simply because she does not have her grant. I appeal to the Minister to put the word out to all third level colleges to be lenient and understanding with young people who have not received their grants when it comes to on-campus accommodation and any associated payments.

I did not see the interview last night with Mr. Halappanavar but I understand it was rather emotional. It is regrettable that in Ireland in 2012 a man who lost his wife less than one month ago has to go on television to appeal for what he perceives to be justice. Something has happened that is totally unacceptable, regrettable and undignified, yet the gentleman has shown great dignity. We need to examine ourselves as a society, a civilisation and a republic and we must ask ourselves whether this is acceptable. In my humble opinion, it is not acceptable. I call on all parties involved in this case to show sensitivity to a man who has lost his wife, because that is the reality. We can all stand up here and talk about this case in an academic sense, but the bottom line is that this is a grieving man and I have great respect and admiration for the dignity he has shown.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I, too, watched the "Prime Time" programme last night and anyone in the country who watched it would have sympathy for the families of Savita and Praveen Halappanavar. However, he does not simply need sympathy; he needs support from the State and all politicians. The only way he will get this support is if we have an independent public inquiry. Any inquiry that does not have the support of the Halappanavar family will not work or do justice to what happened in Galway some weeks ago. Everyone is keen to hear the truth and see justice and everyone is keen to see an inquiry that will bring about justice. However, any inquiry which does not have the family front and centre would be wrong.

Yesterday, the Taoiseach engaged in megaphone diplomacy by speaking to the Halappanavar family through the Dáil. The Taoiseach and the Minister should be engaging directly with the family instead. The inquiry is important but we have a greater responsibility to legislate because that is what we are elected to do in the Dáil and the Seanad. I was offended by some of the disgraceful comments from Labour Party and Fine Gael representatives in the Dáil yesterday when this issue was being discussed. My party was labelled opportunistic for bringing forward a simple, moderate motion calling for legislation on the X case. No political party in Ireland could be accused of being opportunistic for raising a sensitive, complex and divisive issue such as abortion. There is nothing to be gained politically by anyone on this issue. What can and should be gained is a realisation that we, as legislators, should do what we were elected to do - that is, to make laws to protect women and to ensure medical professionals have the proper advice and guidance. That is what yesterday's motion was about. Regardless, on two occasions in the Dáil in recent months both Government parties have voted down suggestions and amendments to legislation which would have filled this gap. I put it to the Leader and every legislator in the State that we should do what we have been elected to do - that is, to legislate for the X case and provide certainty for medical professionals. More importantly, we should do the right thing by the women of Ireland.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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We have been discussing this tragic case in Galway for two weeks now. From the outset I requested an independent inquiry. I realise we are in a logjam situation at the moment. Incredible sensitivities are involved in this case. I appeal for openness on both sides in order that we can proceed in the interests of truth and justice, bearing in mind that a grieving husband is involved.

I wish to raise an issue about which I am most concerned - that is, the increasing levels of new teacher unemployment. A number of graduates in Galway have come to me to say they are only getting an occasional day substituting here and there. One case involved a young man who had applied for 131 places but got only two interviews. More important is the lack of places for new teachers to work their probation. There was a time when one left college and had up to five years to do this, but the last Government brought this down to three years. I appeal to the Minister for Education and Skills and I call on the Leader to ask that he increase this by at least one year to four years. Many of these young people are at the end of their three years and cannot be full teachers, which means they cannot travel abroad as qualified teachers. I question the wisdom of continuing to train more teachers if we cannot at a minimum provide places for them to do their probation. One easy way to do this immediately is to extend the period from three years to at least four years. Obviously, if there is a lack of places and jobs they will need more time. We should be smart and think of our young people, the talent base of our future generations when it comes to teaching and learning.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I second the proposal of Senator Kathryn Reilly on the jobs issue. Several calls have been made this morning from both sides of the House with regard to a public inquiry into the unfortunate death of Mrs. Halappanavar in Galway recently. I am unsure but I know my party is seeking this and it may well be a way of doing it.

If it could be done without having legal costs involved, I would be enthusiastic about it but if it cannot be done without them, then we must be careful.

Another issue arises in this case. A woman from my area died in hospital a number of years ago when she contracted MRSA and it subsequently transpired that she picked up that infection from taking a shower. The Halappanavar case is highly emotive but we should remember that every year people die in hospitals in questionable circumstances. Whatever we do here and whatever template is applied, all other people who are bereaved must be entitled to similar consideration and to a similar system for getting at the truth. That is an important point of principle. When I think back on the many sad cases I have heard of, some of which were never mentioned in this House, I realise how important it is that we have a proportionate and fair balance in this case. These are very emotive and personal issues for families, who are really traumatised by what happens in these situations, of which we must be mindful.

In the circumstances, to proceed with the current inquiry is a mistake because without the active participation and support of the family, it is difficult to see what it can actually achieve. I call on the Minister to move away from the current inquiry proposal and to try to devise a system which will be acceptable to the family.

A comment was made in the House today to the effect that everybody is pro-life and would that it was so. I have heard people who are looking for liberal abortion regimes and who are in favour of under 16s being entitled to an abortion without parental consent and, unfortunately, one of those is the chairman of this inquiry. I am calling on the Minister to have him step down from this inquiry because a broad proportion of this population would not have confidence in him.

David Norris (Independent)
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This is entirely inappropriate.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Walsh, I ruled on this matter yesterday. We will not discuss it again.

David Norris (Independent)
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I think people who talk about sensitivity and treating people with courtesy should not be quite so hypocritical. It happens repeatedly in this House, involving two or three Members, and I am sick and tired of it.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Senator to resume his seat.

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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As I said yesterday, the person who was appointed as the chairperson has a lot of experience-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We are not dealing with the chairperson of the inquiry. Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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I do have a question. In this case, the HSE is obliged to carry out an inquiry because it is contracted to provide health care services in this country. A very serious incident occurred where there was a tragic loss of life and therefore the HSE is obliged to carry out an inquiry into what went wrong. The team that has been selected is very experienced and is under the chairmanship of a very experienced person. As I outlined yesterday, he went into a hospital in the UK to put new structures in place-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I ruled on this matter yesterday. We are not discussing the chairman of the inquiry team.

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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-----where there were ten maternal deaths in a three-year period. He has a lot of experience.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I ruled on this matter yesterday. We are not dealing with the independence of the chairperson of the inquiry.

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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In fairness, this is a matter where-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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Yes. It is important that the message be conveyed to the Minister that the inquiry be held at the earliest possible date in order that the facts are made available to the public. The structure that has been set up is the proper way of dealing with the issue and that does not prevent a public inquiry being held at a later date, if necessary. At least let us get all of the facts out in the public domain and the inquiry as set up is the way to do that. I ask the Leader to convey that message to the Minister for Health.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I wish to comment on the issue of the inquiry, about which many other Senators have already spoken. Anyone who watched the "Prime Time" interview with Praveen Halappanavar last night could not fail to be moved by his dignity, the extent of his grief and the appalling situation that he is in. Clearly, a genuinely independent inquiry is needed and the key issue is that it would meet the needs of the family of Savita Halappanavar, as President Michael D. Higgins has said, in very careful terms. The Government must move quickly to ensure that such an inquiry is set up. It does not need to be a fully public tribunal and people are rightly concerned about the length of time, the extent of legal challenges and so forth that such a model might entail. We have plenty of other models of independent inquiries. Indeed, HIQA could carry one out and some of the genuinely independent people who have been appointed to the inquiry team could be involved in that. The key issue is that it must be done in consultation with the family.

Also, as events have unfolded - those of us who were at last night's vigil outside the Dáil will be conscious of this - a real consensus is emerging on the need for legislation on foot of the expert group report that is going to the Cabinet next week. We need to see a Government commitment to legislate. If the Government was to make that decision at the Cabinet next week and announce it, that would be very useful. We could then, in the Dáil and the Seanad, debate the content of the legislation in light of the expert group's report.

I remind Members that a briefing will be held at midday in meeting room A of Leinster House on the separation of church and State, which I am hosting, with Atheist Ireland. One of the speakers is the author Sanal Edamaruku, who is facing jail in India on a charge of blasphemy. The briefing will give us an opportunity to discuss our blasphemy law.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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It is imperative that we hear from the Minister for Health on the inquiry into the death of the late Savita Halappanavar. I have been extremely careful in my utterances in recent days but there are two core principles that we need to discuss with the Minister. The first is the need for independence. Whether the inquiry is public or sworn, the HSE will be seen to have a horse in the race and no HSE employees should be conducting this inquiry. They should be witnesses to it. Perceived independence is vital and that is why the three Galway consultants stood back.

The second issue relates to the chair of the inquiry, which I have already raised with great caution. More information has come to light which suggests to me that this is not a fit person. Competence academically and professionally is one thing but even in the past few years this gentleman has written about late termination of pregnancy, has talked about-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I ruled on this issue yesterday and will not allow the Senator to speak about the chairman. He is an independent chairperson and we are not discussing his abilities. Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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There is a serious-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does Senator Mullen have a question?

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Yes, I do.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is aware that there are other ways to raise this issue if he wishes to but he should not raise it on the Order of Business. Does he have a question for the Leader today? The Order of Business is about the business for today.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I never use my contributions on the Order of Business to do anything except raise issues that are seriously in the public interest.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We are not discussing any individual who is not here to defend himself. I have ruled on this matter on several occasions, both yesterday and today, and I am not accepting that he be mentioned-----

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I am quoting writings by a person and entitled to draw a conclusion-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Please ask a question of the Leader on the Order of Business, on today's business.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Yes. If an academic talks about taking the life of a foetus, whether alive or dead, after a late-term pregnancy-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

David Norris (Independent)
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How can one take the life of a foetus if it is dead?

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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-----that feeds in to a serious problem. The Standing Orders of this House are not being applied properly. If urgent matters in the public interest cannot be raised-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We are on the Order of Business.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Yes and the Order of Business request which I have made is that we need to-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator's time is up. I call on the Leader to reply.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I do not think the Cathaoirleach should protect the Minister in this way.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I am not protecting anybody.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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This inquiry must be seen-----

David Norris (Independent)
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A very serious charge has been made against the Cathaoirleach.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I am protecting the House.

David Norris (Independent)
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The Cathaoirleach has been accused of not applying Standing Orders and not being fair.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I have made my point but on a point of order-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Senator to resume his seat. I am not accepting any point of order.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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On a point of order-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is over time.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I wish to raise a point of order.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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What is the Senator's point of order?

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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My point of order is that it cannot be the case that a Member of this House may not advert to the written text of an academic or a person and draw certain conclusions.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is not a point of order, as the Senator well knows.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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It is a point of order.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I call the Leader.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I am asking the Cathaoirleach to tell us how he can possibly prevent me from reading out a text and drawing a conclusion from it as it relates to a matter of current public interest.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I have asked the Senator if he has a question for the Leader on the Order of Business.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Yes, and I explained my question but the Cathaoirleach went further.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Order of Business is about the order for the day.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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The Cathaoirleach went further and said that I could not refer to the text. How can that be?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is not raising a point of order.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Senator Mullen should ask his question.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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My question is whether the Leader will invite the Minister for Health to the House to explain these two urgent reasons for having an independent inquiry. I am proposing that a retired judge, somebody who understands the Irish system and who is not seen to be biased one way or the other, be called in to chair the inquiry.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The acting leader of the Opposition, Senator Byrne, raised the issue of the mortgage to rent scheme. On foot of the recommendations of the Keane report on mortgage arrears the Government launched a mortgage to rent scheme on a pilot basis in February 2012, which was extended nationally in June 2012. This is only one policy solution among many responses advanced by the Government. Senator Byrne clearly has not heard of the other responses, which I have outlined on several occasions. Budget 2012 also provided support for mortgage holders who had purchased homes between 2004 and 2008, at the height of the property market, by way of increased mortgage tax relief. Yesterday we spent three hours debating the Personal Insolvency Bill 2012. Many of these matters could have been raised during that period but only two of the contributors to yesterday's debate were from Fianna Fáil. I do not know if that is an indication of Fianna Fáil Members' interest in the Bill.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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We had three hours but the Minister for Justice and Equality used up one hour and 15 minutes. I spoke in the debate.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Fianna Fáil Members have been speaking about mortgage arrears and insolvency legislation for weeks-----

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Do not imply that I was not here for yesterday's debate.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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-----but when they had an opportunity to speak on these issues yesterday only two contributors were from Fianna Fáil.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I was one of them.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Leader to continue, without interruption.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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If that is indicative of Fianna Fáil Members' interest in the people who are in mortgage arrears-----

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister took nearly half of the three hours allocated for the debate.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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-----they should put their money where their mouths are in future. If they call for debates they should speak in them when they get the opportunity to do so.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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There was not enough time. The Minister took half the time.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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There was plenty of time. All Fianna Fáil provided was two speakers in a debate lasting three hours. Look at the record.

David Norris (Independent)
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I hope the Leader pays his compliments to Independent Senators, almost all of whom spoke. We are a small group.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Naturally, I do not propose to accept the opportunistic proposal to amend the Order of Business.

I did not see yesterday evening's RTE programme on the death of Savita Halappanavar. I do not wish to comment on the programme, but Senator Harte asked about the coroner's report. I understand that a coroner will prepare a report on the matter. I note the points raised by Senator Norris in particular, and other Members have also spoken on the issue. The HSE is obliged to carry out an inquiry and there is no question that the country needs answers. The investigation should proceed, but that should not preclude a further inquiry if one is necessary. The chairman of the investigation team has extended an invitation to the husband of Savita and that invitation remains open.

I do not propose to accept the amendment proposed by Senator Reilly in regard to No. 19, motion No. 10, on the Order Paper. The Minister for Social Protection was in the House a number of weeks ago and I believe these matters were raised in that context. We also held a debate in the House on youth unemployment. I am sure that and related issues will be addressed in the Budget Statement on 5 December.

Senator Comiskey raised the issue of student grants, which were discussed by the House on several occasions last week. The Minister for Education and Skills has given his assurance that he will provide every resource necessary to expedite the processing of grants. I agree with Senator Conway that third level colleges should be lenient with students who are awaiting decisions on grant applications. One VEC, Dublin City VEC, is still dealing with grant applications. This is the first year of the new system and there have been a number of teething problems but I hope these problems will be addressed in the coming years in order that we do not have the delays experienced this year.

Senator Healy Eames raised the issue of probationary teachers and extending the period of probation from three to four years. I will raise the issue with the Minister for Education and Skills and I am sure the Senator will raise it at the Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection.

Senator White spoke about access to the mobility allowance for those aged over 66 years. The last Government adopted the same stance as the current one. I do not think it is the correct stance but I understand the Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions is dealing with the matter. If the Senator wishes to make a contribution to that committee's deliberations I am sure she will be allowed to do so.

I think I have dealt with all the matters arising on the Order of Business. I do not propose to accept either of the proposed amendments.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Byrne has proposed the following amendment to the Order of Business, "That a debate on the failure of the mortgage to rent scheme be taken today." As there is no seconder, the amendment falls.

Senator Kathryn Reilly has proposed the following amendment, "That No. 19, motion No. 10, be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?

Kathryn Reilly (Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I propose that the sitting be suspended until 11.45 a.m.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.