Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, and call on him to make the opening address.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I am very grateful for the opportunity to address the Seanad on matters relating to flooding and flood prevention for which I am responsible as Minister of State with responsibility for the Office of Public Works.

The summer of 2012 was a very poor one with cold and wet weather across all areas of the country. Preliminary reviews by Met Éireann confirm what we all experienced at individual level. The Poulter index is a method of rating the summer weather from June to August, using a formula based on mean temperature, rainfall and sunshine for selected stations. The higher the index, the better the summer weather. On this rating Ireland experienced its worst summer in 26 years and the Cork Airport weather station reported its worst summer since records began there in 1962. Rainfall totals were above average everywhere with the highest summer percentage values measured in the south. Recorded levels at Fermoy were 224% above the long-term average. Rainfall levels in June alone were nearly three times above average.

There is no firm evidence that this level of variability is reflective of anything more than natural variations in our weather. It is notable to record that a recent report on water levels in the River Shannon noted that water level records confirm the widely held perception that late summer flooding on the River Shannon has been significantly greater in the past decade than over the previous four decades. However, before this, late summer flooding in the 1940s and 1950s was more frequent than in the years since 2002.

Inevitably, greatly increased levels of rainfall bring increased incidence of flooding and the south of the country and County Cork in particular suffered serious flooding events this summer. The pattern of rainfall experienced in the Cork area this summer, especially in June, where quite localised torrential downpours occurred over a relatively short time period, contributed greatly to the extreme flooding in the area. This form of pluvial flooding event was also the main contributory factor in the extreme flooding experienced in the Dublin region in October 2011. One must have regard to the dreadful effect this has on local communities. To have one's productive land inundated and cut off by floodwaters is equally distressing. I am very much aware of the impact of the flooding this summer on homeowners, businesspeople and farmers. I have travelled around the country to see some of the places affected and I recognise it has a deeply traumatic effect not just on individuals but on the entire community. I am very much aware of the hardship and loss suffered as a result of flooding and I welcome the opportunity to place on the record of this House my personal concern and that of the Government for the victims of the flooding.

I acknowledge the tremendous work delivered locally by the emergency services and other State agencies during these flood events. The response of the emergency services, An Garda Síochána, the local authority, the HSE and Civil Defence is always critical in these situations in helping both to lessen the impact and speed the recovery. I also acknowledge the fantastic co-operation and help that was delivered within the communities affected. I refer to one community I visited a week after a flooding event in Clonakilty in June. Within a matter of days the main street was open again for business which was because of the tremendous effort and pride of the local people who were not going to be beaten back by this and refused to walk away. They had all their businesses operational again. Tremendous gratitude is due to the people of Clonakilty and elsewhere who have shown that kind of spirit to fight back when such incidents occur.

A fund of ¤10 million has been made available for humanitarian assistance needs arising from flood and other related events. The scheme is administered by the community welfare service of the HSE on behalf of the Department of Social Protection. The aim of the scheme is to provide financial support for people who have suffered flood damage to their homes. The community welfare service provides emergency financial and other assistance for households affected by flooding to cover items such as clothing, food, bedding, heating, etc. Qualified households can claim for essential household items such as carpets, flooring, furniture and white goods.

The financial impact of flooding on homeowners and businesses can be very serious. While the humanitarian aid scheme can help, most people will be reliant on their insurance policies to protect them against the worst of the financial cost and loss arising. In this regard, I am aware of the difficulties some people have experienced in securing insurance cover for flood risk at affordable prices or at all. Insurance companies make their own assessment of risk in any particular case. However, in areas where flood defence and alleviation works have been carried out, I cannot accept that any property protected by those works would not be able to receive a quote for insurance at reasonable cost. My officials in the OPW and I are engaged with the insurance industry to agree a format for providing information on existing flood defences in order that insurance companies have the best possible information on which to base their risk assessments.

The OPW is committed to doing all it can to alleviate the impact of flooding through the provision of defences to reduce existing flood risk and by taking steps to manage and reduce flood risk in the future through a strategic and sustainable approach under the national catchment flood risk assessment and management, CFRAM, programme. That is a big phrase but CFRAM is quite straightforward. We have divided the country into six areas based on river basin districts. Between now and 2013 we are carrying out a systematic survey, which is in draft form, with regard to the predictability or probability of flood events in those six areas. We will have all the maps produced by the end of 2013 and the plan is that by 2015, following the EU directive in this regard, we will have a flood risk management plan for each of those areas, setting out the appropriate actions required to minimise or reduce the risk of flooding. CFRAM, which sounds like a big bureaucratic phrase, effectively means that the country is divided into six areas, and we are doing the work based on the evidence to find out the risks - the 100 year risk, for example - of a flooding event in each of those six regions. Those maps are on the OPW website. They are in draft format and by the end of next year we will have reached a conclusion based on consultation with and support from local authorities. By the end of 2015, we will have a management plan for the country on which we will sign off at EU level. There will be significant resource implications in this regard. At least we have a plan that will be based on evidence.

While the CFRAM programme looks to the future, much work is being done now to address the flooding problems we currently face. The Government is committed to dealing with the flooding problems that affect cities, towns and communities across the country. This commitment is underpinned by a significant capital works investment programme by the OPW, which, with expenditure on maintenance of arterial drainage schemes, will see up to ¤250 million being spent on flood relief measures in the next five years. In a very difficult fiscal round in which there have been significant reductions in capital expenditure and there is pressure across all Departments on capital expenditure, I am grateful for the support I have received from the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, and we have given a commitment to spend ¤250 million over a five year period. This is because, by definition, it takes a long time to work up a major scheme, make sure we have the correct hydraulic assessment, local buy-in and support and the correct planning and development, and then draw down the funds to meet that requirement. This is a long-term business with no quick fix solution in many of these cases. We are talking about longer term plans that will be rolled out systematically across the country. I am grateful for the support we have received from colleagues around the Cabinet table and for this envelope of ¤250 million over a five year period. It is a significant investment that allows us to carry out works at Fermoy, Mallow, Clonmel, Carlow and Bray and on the Dodder and Tolka rivers in Dublin - the former being phase 2 of the project - while projects at Waterford, Ennis and the River Wad are ready to proceed.

Outside the main urban areas, there are many areas of the country affected by serious localised flooding events, and it is important that these areas receive assistance. One of the most flexible schemes operated by the OPW is the minor works scheme. It is straightforward enough. A local authority applies to our Department for funding of up to ¤500,000 in respect of flood alleviation schemes or projects that would help protect householders or commercial properties in a particular area. That application goes to the OPW. There is a transparent system whereby we assess that application on a value for money basis and if it comes out in a positive way, we will allocate funds to the local authority to spend on that minor scheme. Thus, it is not just about the big schemes of which people are aware and which we have completed or will soon complete. It is also about the minor schemes, which can have a large impact on a local authority area. To date, over ¤27 million has been allocated to 33 city and county councils for more than 370 minor works across the country. Every second week I make announcements. I use this opportunity to impress upon local authorities that when we put a local authority in funds for a particular scheme, it should get on and do the work, because the funding will not be there forever. There is an obligation to get on with it. Not only is this important in terms of flood alleviation, it is also important for local employment because many of these projects involve local contractors which win contracts through the local authorities.

I thank the House for allowing me the opportunity to address this important issue. In the wake of severe flood events, there can be an understandable expectation that relief and mitigation measures can be implemented quickly. In some cases, if the event is very localised, the measures needed may be relatively straightforward and can be implemented in a short timeframe. However, often the problems are of such a scale that a major scheme of capital works is required to deal effectively with the situation. Such schemes involve complex engineering and construction operations which can affect people's lives and the built and natural environment. It is crucial that the public is with us on this. There is no point in working up a major scheme and then finding out that when we go to hit the button to proceed with the funding, there are widespread objections. We saw a case in Dublin last year in which my Department wanted to put Dublin City Council in funds for a significant flood alleviation measure but the community had objections to it, which I can understand. I appeal through this House to local authorities to make sure there is buy-in on the ground so that when it gets to the point of implementing these things, the public supports us. It is important that the work is done correctly and achieves its objectives. I assure the House that the OPW strives always to ensure that the significant investment by the State in flood relief works and flood management achieves a clear reduction in the risk and impact of flooding on society and results in a real and appreciable improvement in the quality of people's lives. When I came to the OPW, I asked the expert flood alleviation section, through the engineers, to say how big this problem is. They told me that, technically, there are about 250 hot spots across the country where there could be significant flooding events, which could cause devastation to those communities. This is part of a long-term programme. It will not be fixed overnight. Other countries are ahead of us in this regard; however, I recognise that the previous Government started this work, there was significant funding there and we are continuing that. It is work that we must do in good times or bad because of the impact it has on communities across the country. Our task is to work with those communities to get the best possible result.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for a very comprehensive statement.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I did not come to the House today expecting to be shocked, but I am, because there did not appear to be a single reference to climate change in the Minister of State's speech. I can be corrected if this is not the case, but there was evidence in his speech that both he and the OPW are climate change deniers. He said: "There is no firm evidence that this level of variability is reflective of anything more than natural variations in our weather." If we have climate change deniers at the heart of the Government, I am very worried.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I was referring to this summer.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The quote was "that this level of variability is reflective of anything more than natural variations in our weather."

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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That was this summer.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The Government, countries and scientists around the world have had massive studies carried out of climate change and its impact on flooding. An Environmental Protection Agency report from 2009 co-authored by Professor John Sweeney from the National University of Ireland, Maynooth, contains incredible detail about the impact of climate change on flooding. Whether the OPW is going to start denying this or this is evidence of Fine Gael's right-wing approach, it is a fact that even in the US, climate change deniers accept that climate change is taking place. They just deny that humans have anything to do with it. There seems to be no recognition of that and if this is at the heart of Government policy, it is extremely worrisome and dangerous.

One can argue about what is causing it but the science is there and the Government must accept that temperatures are rising and a result of this is flooding will continue to occur. This is a very important point to make on what was an otherwise reasonable speech by the Minister of State. I acknowledge work is taking place throughout the country. Many of these projects were initiated by the previous Government and I am glad they are being continued. I do not have too many complaints in my area with regard to schemes, and councillors throughout the country do not bring forward too many complaints because many of the schemes promised are moving forward. I know of a number of minor works taking place in County Meath, including in Drumconrath, and I pay tribute to the Minister of State with regard to this because quick action was taken by the OPW. Other work is taking place in Dunboyne and Navan with regard to various emergencies under various schemes. However, I would like clarity on climate change because it must be at the heart of the debate. I am disappointed that none of the reports from the EPA was included by the Minister of State in his speech.

Ironically, when we were in government the ¤10 million fund was derided by the then Opposition as not being enough. We then found enough people were not coming to claim the entire amount. It was restrictive enough in certain cases but helpful in others. I am glad it is there for when problems arise.

Will the Minister of State clarify the point on climate change? It is a crucial absence from his speech and there is evidence which he or his officials do not accept. It is partially the cause of many flood events which occur.

Tom Shehan (Fine Gael)
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As this debate is on flooding and flood prevention, that is what I will speak about.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Climate change causes flooding.

Tom Shehan (Fine Gael)
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I will keep to the aspect of flood prevention if I may. The two places nearest to me where I have seen huge investment are Fermoy and Mallow. For years people in these areas stated nothing could be done to prevent the flooding there, but lo and behold the engineers and experts have changed the lives of the people. Large amounts were spent and extensive works carried out, but it is good value when it works. Businesses in Mallow could not get an insurance quotation because annual flooding occurred.

With regard to large projects costing a large amount of money, several years ago the manager of Kerry County Council in his wisdom had to carry out extensive coastal protection works at Inch which cost approximately ¤4 million. He secured only ¤3 million of this funding from the Government. I ask the Minister of State to keep in mind that Kerry County Council is seeking an additional ¤1 million for this.

With regard to minor works, extensive flooding occurred at a river near me in the Glenflesk area. Trees which were hanging over the river were cut and this has made a change. People living in a cluster of seven or eight houses in the area could not enter or leave, but due to minor works carried out by the OPW which cut the overhanging trees falling into the river the problem has been alleviated. This year we have had a large amount of rainfall but flooding has not been an issue.

I thank the Minister of State for visiting Rossbeigh in my home patch. I believe from experts that not much can be done about the shifting of sands but there is a major concern about the houses in Incharee for which the Minister of State has allocated funding. Recently I spoke to the engineer in the local authority and he may need a little more money to finish the works. Where the sand dune structure has been undermined the houses have been left wide open to attack by the sea. Additional funding may be required to secure these houses from flooding.

On an ancillary note, of most importance to a planning authority when deciding on a planning application is to protect the skyline, and people often had to build their houses in hollows. Subsequent flooding has occurred and many of these houses have been destroyed. Women, in particular, will tell one that if a house has been flooded it is never the same. Local authorities always seem to worry about protecting the skyline although nobody speaks about building castles on top of a hill. I do not think it was right for people to be made build houses on the lowest part of their land holding and perhaps this should be addressed.

Recently I spoke to an engineer who told me the ground is saturated because of the huge amount of rainfall we have had this year. He stated the Lakes of Killarney are as high as he has ever seen and if we get heavy rainfall over winter we will be highly prone to flooding. There is nothing the Minister of State can do except to be wary. We must hope we do not get such weather during the winter.

Kathryn Reilly (Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak on the issue of flooding. It is very important because of the summer we have had. We must discuss its effects and how to prevent the dreadful consequences flooding has for local communities. We must recognise it is becoming an issue that we must deal with more regularly, and this will continue as the effects of climate change, such as more extreme weather events, become the norm rather than the exception. This means we must step up our prevention measures and preparation for when floods take place, bearing in mind more extreme flooding is more likely to occur. We must prepare for the worst case scenario rather than ending up using hindsight.

The practical effects of failing to put in place proper flood prevention measures are very clear as we saw earlier in the summer. It affects public and private property and agriculture, and general economic disruption running into tens of millions of euro results from flooding. Last October two people were tragically killed as a result of floods. Insurance helps people in the short term, but if flooding becomes more regular premiums will rise to reflect this reality and businesses and homeowners could do without this, particularly given the economic climate.

An issue raised with me is the frustration of local authorities in attempting to carry out flood prevention work on land in national parks. They feel essential flood prevention work is being unnecessarily delayed by an overburdensome procedure whereby the national parks rather than the OPW have the final say. I would appreciate the Minister of State making a comment on this.

With regard to the flood directive, while I recognise we are on course to implement it on schedule we are lagging behind the North in implementing some of its facets, in particular the requirement to complete flood maps.

In particular, in the North they are ahead of us in meeting the requirement to complete flood maps. The Minister of State has discussed this matter with the Northern Minister, Ms Michelle O'Neill, MLA. I hope this co-operation can be increased and expertise shared in order that all of the island can be mapped as soon as possible. This is a natural area in which co-operation is necessary, given the overlap of flood catchment areas in the Border region. Rivers do not recognise partition.

The flood maps represent an excellent use of technology to overcome an age-old problem. Do we have sufficient technical know-how to make the best use of existing flood prevention technology? Prevention constitutes money well spent. We need to increase the use of the technology and, where there are unnecessary delays, take practical policy steps, as the issue will not go away. I hope the Minister of State will reassure the House that it will remain a priority for him and that he will be open to suggestions from all local communities.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister of State and thank him for attending our debate on this subject. He has kept himself apprised of recent events, but I wish to discuss history. Almost to the day 100 years ago, my grandfather, Neddy Kavanagh, moved 300 yards from where he lived on Mill Street in Carrick-on-Suir to higher ground on Greystone Street because he had been flooded for three consecutive years. When people tell me flooding is a recent phenomenon due to climate change, etc., I remind them of my grandfather and that the problem has been with us for a long time. We have found different ways of dealing with it. I am glad to say my experience of the way all Governments have handled the issue has been positive.

In August I was on holiday in Clonakilty. I left it on a Monday morning to head for Kinsale, doing my patriotic duty and spending my holiday money in Ireland. That night Clonakilty was flooded. I spoke to Senator Kathryn Reilly's colleague, the town's current mayor, Councillor Cionnaith Ó Súilleabháin, the next day. The town was devastated in the middle of the summer. Although no rain had fallen on the previous day, a deluge destroyed the town, the second time it had happened this year. Within hours houses and shops can be flooded without warning.

In November 1996 I was awoken at 6 a.m. by a cousin who asked whether I would go to a house by the River Suir and remove my deceased cousin Nelly Allen's furniture. We reached the house in the dark to find the water level up to our waist. Within 24 hours the late Minister Hugh Coveney visited Carrick-on-Suir with the then county manager and senior officials from the water unit. His visit started the provision of flood walls in the town, but the process took many years to complete. There were public consultations and many local concerns, including my own. I had been a fisherman since I was a child and lived within the sound of the weir. The concern was that the town would be blocked off from the river and that we would not be able to see it, its walkways, etc. However, the walls were built and during this year's highest rainfall I stood on a bridge in the town that was built before Columbus discovered America and saw that the town was safe. No one was worried about flooding. Flood prevention can work.

Clonmel is 13 miles from where I live and works there are nearing completion. A good job has been done in a difficult scenario. The river splits in the town, presenting many difficulties. Carrick-on-Suir is a tidal town in that the tide moves 1.5 miles upstream from it. This creates difficulties, but Ireland's engineering companies have mastered the art of dealing with flooding.

I hope there is enough money to continue flood prevention works. The Minister of State alluded to this issue. In our response to flooding we have not recognised the importance of deforestation. I live in the countryside where deforestation has allowed water to enter the river basin more quickly than ever before. For many years I fished for salmon and one would not change a lure for two days after heavy rainfall. Now one must change it within six or seven hours because water is not being contained by tree roots. Will the Minister of State comment on this issue? We can do something about it, for example, by encouraging reafforestation. When forests are cut down, the land is usually left to lie fallow for two, three or four years before it is reset. That wait is unnecessary.

I hope the prevention work continues. I know what it is like to be flooded. When I discussed the issue with the mayor of Clonakilty, I empathised with him. I urge the Minister of State to proceed with the work under way and commend him for his efforts to date.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister of State. We always have good debates when he is present. I was asking for a-----

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I apologise, but the Senator's microphone is not working.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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I will move to another seat.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Senator could join the Government.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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We are still in difficulty. My microphone is certainly working.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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Senator Barrett can proceed.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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I thank everyone for their patience.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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We apologise for the interruption, but the OPW has got us back in business.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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It solved the problem.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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I was absent for part of Senator Kathryn Reilly's contribution because I wanted to check on a point made by Senator Thomas Byrne. While I was a member of the National Economic and Social Council, NESC, a number of years ago, the idea of climate change was discussed. The Central Statistics Office used to have the numbers, but they are not in the statistical yearbook. The Minister of State might replace them. As far as I remember from seeing the figures four years ago, there had been no change in rainfall in the preceding 50 years in the Kerry mountains and Malahide, the wettest parts of Ireland. However, some doomsayers claimed that the Lakes of Killarney would be approximately five times larger than they are now. I do not know what was supposed to happen in Malahide. I supplied the numbers to the NESC which changed its report somewhat. That the climate section of the statistical yearbook does not include figures for rainfall is interesting. That information might address the points raised by Senator Thomas Byrne.

As in all fields, there is a climate change industry, one that sometimes invents crises. Neither I nor the council saw any difference in the rainfall in County Kerry in the 1950s and a number of years ago. Met Éireann could confirm whether this was the case. The information should be contained in the statistical bulletin to allow people to judge the pattern.

The Minister of State referred to the insurance industry not taking account of work done by his Department. Representatives of the insurance industry who appeared before the transport committee yesterday have requested access to penalty points data to allow them judge the risk of drivers, in respect of which they have the co-operation of the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport. If they are willing to take on board that information in order to penalise people with a bad driving record then they should be willing to reduce premiums in areas in respect of which the OPW's flood control records are good. Insurance is supposed to measure risk. As such, where the risk is reduced, this should be reflected in lower premiums. The refusal of insurance companies to insure in particular areas is particularly strange.

I commend the OPW for having a green car park in Farmleigh. As stated by Senator Landy, tarring over gardens, as in shopping centres, causes run-off to speed up. Green car parks such as the one at Farmleigh allow for better absorption of water. There is a need for greater liaison between the OPW and the planning authorities. We all know that in places such as Dunboyne and Maynooth planning permissions were granted in places which everybody in those localities knew were prone to flooding from time to time. In Gort, houses were built in turlough country. The Rydell report of the 1950s on the Shannon, which was epochal research, stated that the cheapest way to address this issue was to subsidise the rebuilding of houses on higher ground. However, what it would have cost to alleviate flooding in the Shannon area at that time would have exceeded any possible benefits. The case was made that flooding of the area in winter did not do any harm and may have done some good to the soil. Another important point in this regard is that in the US the Army Corps of Engineers was required under the Flood Control Act 1936 to undertake projects so that the benefits to whomsoever they may accrue would exceed costs. Out of this grew cost-benefit analysis, an issue on which Mr. Otto Eckstein from Harvard wrote. One wishes that project appraisal in other areas was as good it is in respect of flood control.

There was a danger in the past, to quote Mr. Colm McCarthy, that many expensive drainage projects turned wet rocks into dry rocks. We do need a flow of benefits. If one is going to spend ¤250 million it must be at a suitable discount rate - the current cost of borrowing is high - and a flow of benefits must result from it. We cannot allow a situation whereby the OPW carries out engineering works that enhance people's private incomes but do nothing for society.

The Minister of State referred indirectly to the flooding at Clontarf. I have discussed this problem with Deputies representing that constituency. They may have written to the Minister of State about it. Only yesterday I discussed with Senator Quinn the flooding that occurred in that area a number of years ago and the lack of water at the time two miles down the road which resulted in the Kilbarrack sailing club having to shut down. I believe the causeway between the mainland and Bull Island prevents the flood plain from operating as it should. It is hoped the OPW will take an interest in this project, which became a cause célèbrewithin Dublin Corporation, or Dublin City Council as it is now, because it built the causeway and as such cannot admit there is anything wrong with it. As a former resident of the area the Minister of State will be aware that the people in Clontarf were strongly opposed to the erection of a high wall and disputed the need for it. The Minister of State will get to say "I told you so" if there is flood in Clontarf and I will be in trouble in Sutton if the causeway is cut and there is a flood in Sutton. We have many people with agricultural expertise on how we could use the flood plains rather than engaging in expensive engineering works.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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It would not be as cheap to relocate the Senator.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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Thank you.

The Minister of State will be aware that the Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts has been critical of the cost overruns in respect of drainage in Kilkenny. Have lessons been learned in this regard? I think Deputy McGuinness's ambition to be Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts came about as a result of this project, which he believed was too expensive.

There is a need to report on the flooding in Cork city in November 2009. Nobody appears to be willing to take responsibility for it. Questions arising include whether the ESB needed a bigger dam and whether Cork City Council was advised of this. That particular flood caused a great deal of damage to Cork city, and it has been difficult to get the insurance companies to pay up or re-insure.

I thank people for their patience as I had to relocate. This is an important topic. As regards the issue of climate change, I am a sceptic, and the numbers confirm that. Have planning decisions been made which have resulted in people being in danger from flooding? I look forward to hearing about the 250 hot spots and the measures to deal with them.

Deirdre Clune (Fine Gael)
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I also want to raise with the Minister of State the flooding in Cork in November 2009. I will not deny that Cork has had flooding problems for many years. I recall as a young child my father, who ran a shop in Cork city centre, regularly being called out by the fire brigade in the early hours of the morning because the shop was under two feet of water.

Traditionally, flooding in Cork was due to a combination of high tides, heavy rainfall and winds coming from the east. The main drainage system now in place has alleviated that problem. The two major floods in Cork which hit the headlines were in November 2009 and 28 June this year. These had nothing to do with the tide although heavy rainfall was a consideration in the flooding in November 2009. We do not as yet have a definitive report on what went wrong. Last winter, the local authorities in Cork city and county and the ESB worked together to manage the dam. University College Cork is suing the ESB. It is dreadful that one arm of the State is suing another. A great deal of damage was caused by the flooding in November 2009. The new computer science building in UCC, which had not even opened, was completely destroyed. A new library in Cork County Council was also destroyed. We have all heard the stories. The people's need for answers about what happened has not been satisfied. Many people in and around Mercy University Hospital woke up in water up to their ears because the wall of the river broke. They had never experienced flooding in their area before. Thankfully, that is now being replaced.

The floods in Cork this year were as a result of high rainfall. I have interacted on this issue with engineers on the ground in Cork, who have a great understanding of what went wrong and are working with the local authorities to address the issue. I am confused. The local authorities prepare reports which are then sent to the OPW and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. Who makes the decision in regard to what happens? There is much confusion around this issue. People are not satisfied that there is one direct line of communication. If one raises this matter on the Adjournment it may be taken by the Minister of State, Deputy Hayes, or a Minister or Minister of State from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. The Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, dealt previously with a matter I raised. The lines of communication are muddy and it is unclear to where one should direct queries.

Some insurance companies have refused to re-insure people because they live in a flood risk area. I raised this issue with Mr. Michael Kemp, chief executive of the Irish Insurance Federation, last year and I have also raised it in this House.

Mr. Kemp indicated that it was working with the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, and the Office of Public Works, OPW, to improve the flow of information between insurers and the OPW, and this should help to prioritise areas where flood defences can contribute to improved insurability. Today the Minister of State has indicated that he and his officials are engaged with the insurance industry to agree a format; therefore, the process is still ongoing nearly a year later. Surely if there is investment in an area and officials sit down with the insurance industry representatives to agree what measures should be put in place, we could move on.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I agree.

Deirdre Clune (Fine Gael)
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This needs to happen, and there should be dialogue between local authorities, the OPW and insurance companies. Individuals are being left uninsured, and they feel it is unfair, particularly where it can be established that investment has been made and the risk of repeat flooding has been reduced.

The Minister of State mentioned minor capital works, which are very important. In my experience of dealing with communities after flooding, I know there should be some forum where people could communicate with the OPW and local authorities. I have done some reading on the issue and there are local flood action groups in some areas and particularly in the UK. For example, after the 2009 floods in an area near Ballinhassig, people met local representatives in the community hall when they were looking for the channel of the river to be dredged. Everybody local to the area knew the river was rising under the bridges but the dredging work was never done. It could have been carried out under the minor works scheme.

Local communities have much historical information, as we saw when Senator Landy referred to his grandfather. We all have this type of information. With regard to planning, we know building should not have taken place on flood plains but we are where we are. On 28 June this year the flooding in Cork affected a major shopping centre, which only has approximately 25% occupancy. I do not know if the shops will ever open again because, unfortunately, the flooding occurred when the retail sector is experiencing difficulties anyway. It is a difficult position and we are still waiting for answers and measures to be announced. Remedial work will not come from major flood defences but it could certainly come from the minor works programme.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the House for this very important debate on the flooding issue. The problems are clearly not his fault and he has inherited a position where his predecessor, Dr. Martin Mansergh, put much work in on a number of schemes. Like other speakers, I must be somewhat parochial. I will mention a few places that were flooded that, historically - or at least in my lifetime - have not been flooded. The problems may have come about through a mixture of types of carelessness, with local authorities not doing the basic groundwork in cleaning culverts, gullies and drains.

One of the areas is where I reside currently in Schull. That has been flooded in the past two consecutive years, although it is hard to imagine a village near the sea being flooded by a tiny stream. I have never received a clear answer on the issue and sometimes local authorities are afraid to admit that rivers, streams and culverts etc. have not been cleared. It is also unusual for Clonakilty to be severely flooded, as it is not on a major river. I have no doubt my west Cork colleagues in the Dáil, particularly Deputy Jim Daly, have advanced that cause fairly well. Not far from Clonakilty, the village of Rathbarry was severely flooded this year. It is a small village in the heartland of a great Fine Gael orator and former Member of this and the other House, the late John L. O'Sullivan. He served on the county council with me.

I would also like the Minister of State to report progress on schemes, one of which is well under way in Bandon. The Minister of State was down there last year and I compliment him on the progress in that regard. I was on my way from Dublin on 19 November some three years ago and was caught by the floods there. The brakes on my car were destroyed and it cost ¤1,200 to get them repaired. When the hot brake pads hit a flood of water, they were bent and I could not make it to Bandon the following day. The only hotel in Bandon is the Munster Arms and in the public bar area, the water reached a foot from the ceiling, or approximately eight ft. There were some frightening experiences there. I know work is in progress and some of the river is being dredged.

There is an outstanding item in Skibbereen, where a report has been done. Floods would historically have come in winter, when there is more rain, but unfortunately, this summer had instances where flooding occurred because of very heavy rain. What, if anything, has happened with the Skibbereen project? I do not expect the Minister of State to have all these answers off the top of his head but he might communicate the progress to me. I am not here to set a trap for the Minister of State rather to raise issues of importance to me. I understand if the Minister of State does not have the answers today.

I have raised the following issue on two occasions on the Order of Business, and other speakers have touched on this. There should be a way to ensure business owners and householders can get continued cover from their insurers. If there is a threat of flooding in particular towns, many people can be hit; in Clonakilty and Skibbereen, for example, people who have been flooded are not being insured. The issue may cut across several Departments but is there any possibility of a universal system of insurance? We all pay a contribution to ensure compensation is made to some degree if a person who causes a motor accident does not have insurance. Has any progress been made on such a system?

We all know of flooding cases affecting the west or areas around the River Suir; Clonmel has been badly hit in the past and there are schemes in places like Fermoy and Mallow which are well advanced. It is a double whammy for people whose properties are flooded, with businesses suffering for several weeks, that there is no possibility of being insured in the event of another flood.

I have often been critical of the OPW but to be fair, over the years significant progress has been made in places like Kilkenny, Clonmel, Fermoy and Mallow. I have no doubt that in places like Bandon and towns in west Cork, there will be progress as well. The history of flooding in Skibbereen, in particular, indicates it would be a major event once every ten years. When flood waters have risen on a couple of instances, voluntary bodies helped to put in sandbags. On two or three occasions the water came within a hair's breadth of flooding the town and its premises. I visited many of the people in Skibbereen, including older people living in the path of flooding. There is no doubt in my mind about some of the big problems in Skibbereen. A welcome relief road was built but I have spoken to some experts and although I am not an engineer, the bridge system does not seem capable of coping with the type of flooding experienced in the town. The water came through the GAA pitch on the last occasion and the ducts in the bridge could not cope with the water, leading to the water backing up. A house belonging to a retired Garda sergeant was flooded three times and when he tried to repair flood damage, he had an unfortunate accident with a saw.

To add insult to injury, he lost a couple of fingers. Three or four houses near the GAA pitch were never flooded. They should take this into account for the flood relief programme for the Ilen River, which is a substantial river coming from the mountains in Castledonovan and through Drimoleague and the parish of Caheragh. They will never admit they were wrong and I am not looking for an admission. Builders, developers and local authorities build on flood plains but giving permission for that is criminal. It is well recognised, going back many years. When the Skibbereen programme is rolled out, it should be done in such a way that people can be hopeful for the next 40 years.

I was listening to a debate on the radio concerning the fact that potatoes will be expensive because farmers were not able to harvest potatoes due to the bad weather this summer. A few days previously, I had read about farmers in Spain, Portugal or Italy where they make money out of olive oil. It was a dry, arid summer and the olive crop failed. They expected the price of olive oil to go through the roof. In Ireland we were worried about the humble spud and in parts of the Mediterranean they were worried about the price of olive oil. We cannot win.

I wish the Minister of State well in his brief. He has always been forthcoming in the Seanad. By the time he completes his career in this Department, I hope many of the towns and villages I mentioned will be sorted for good and glory. I hope the Minister of State will not be elevated too quickly.

Tony Mulcahy (Fine Gael)
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All politics is local but, unfortunately, flooding is also local. We have had that experience in County Clare. Senator Byrne referred to climate change and now we have a name for it. In 1974, we went on a family holiday in Ballybunion, County Kerry. After three summers, eight days into our holiday my father brought us home because there was 3 ft. of rain on the street in the middle of August. This happened 40 years ago and we now have a name for it but it has been happening for quite some time. I was born in Newcastle West, which was wiped out three or four years ago in a flood. It was probably caused by the deforestation of Barnagh, which led to water hitting the mountains and hills much faster and coming into the middle of the town. I am familiar with the river in Newcastle West, having grown up there. The wall is 20 ft. deep before one gets to the bottom of the river. The volume of water coming down was phenomenal. I am 53 years of age and I never saw flooding occur until three or four years ago.

When I was mayor of Clare, Ennis town and its environs suffered major flooding in November 2009. Some ten years previously, in December 1999, the OPW built flood prevention walls in the town as part of a phased flood protection scheme. Can the Minister of State inform the House when phase 2 will be completed? It is now late September and, after one of the wettest summers on record and with the ground saturated, there is concern that we will have another problem this year. Any observation I make today will be constructive.

The O'Garney River in Sixmilebridge burst its banks in 2009 resulting in the bridge, built in the 1600s, being closed due to serious concerns that it could be swept away. This led to the town being divided in two and there were serious hardships for the inhabitants. The Minister of State recently visited the town and met a colleague of mine, Councillor John Crowe, who requested that the river be dragged and widened in places. Cost-effective measures would ensure the flooding encountered in recent years could be avoided. Councillor Crowe has a supermarket in the middle of the town and his shop became a tributary for the O'Garney River during the flooding period in 2009. The river flowed through the middle of the shop for five days.

Rail links between Limerick city and Galway city were closed for many years owing to flooding at Ballycar, Newmarket-on-Fergus. I will not name the officials, as my colleague has done, but they spoke recently with the area committee and the Shannon area councils and said the OPW would not be funding any measures and that it is a problem for Iarnróid Éireann. In Shannon, some insurance companies refuse to insure residents even though the town has never flooded and we have adequate flood prevention measures, with 18 or 20 pump stations at work all the time. Some genius has come up with the idea that they will not insure residents because Shannon is below sea level.

I appreciate that Departments try to protect their budgets and will not spend any money if it is the responsibility of another Department. The taxpayer does not care because it is a problem when it affects the taxpayer. Moneys are collected by the Department of Finance and distributed to the relevant Departments. The Government's income has been cut back to levels seen ten years ago and we must ensure this matter does not fall between Departments when it comes to taking the necessary measures.

Is it possible for the Department to seek an update from Clare County Council and the ESB? In 2009, we were fighting floods on two fronts. One was in the town of Ennis and there was also a flood on the River Shannon. There was a danger that the Parteen Weir and the Ardnacrusha dam was going to break. This caused huge problems in the south Clare area.

Senator Clune referred to the problems in Cork regarding the ESB and its dam further upriver. I attended a meeting in Clare in 2009 when ESB officials told us that at noon they would release X million gallons of water. They told us we could do what we wanted and were getting up to walk out but, in fairness to the county manager, Tom Coughlan, he called them back and asked about the impact of releasing millions of gallons of water down the river. He asked what would happen five miles down the river. That action prevented a catastrophe further down the river and onwards into Limerick city.

Do we have a Minister of State to take full responsibility for flooding? Perhaps we should anoint the Minister of State. It does not just concern the OPW, it is an interdepartmental problem across a large number of Departments and agencies. Engagement with the ESB is critical because it holds millions of gallons of water at a given time, in the summer and in winter. The ESB is a critical part of controls we can put in place to prevent flooding in many areas. It is important the Department is engaged with the ESB. I have no doubt the Minister of State is taking a cohesive, integrated approach to solving the problem.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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It happened yesterday.

Tony Mulcahy (Fine Gael)
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It is critical there is a cohesive approach to solving this problem. Many flooding issues may not need flood prevention but may require management measures to resolve them. That is my experience in Clare in 2009. I wish the Minister of State well.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State and thank him for a comprehensive statement. He is active on the ground in ensuring our concerns are being addressed. I come from Ballinasloe, which was badly flooded in 2009, so I have a keen interest in investments in the past and in the future to ensure we do not have a repeat of the awful trauma suffered by so many households and businesses in 2009. I share in the words of thanks and acknowledgement to the local authorities, the civil defence, the Army and all the people who come to the rescue of communities in times of crisis. We do not appreciate their worth until we have to call them in times of emergency.

I acknowledge the significant spending in Ballinasloe. The Minister of State was in the town last year when the defence wall was officially commissioned. Significant work has been done on a number of bridges around Ballinasloe. I acknowledge the efforts of the Minister of State and his predecessor. We had a good rapport with him during a difficult time for the people of Ballinasloe. There is grave concern.

The Minister of State met the people from the Shannon callows area and the IFA. I refer to the real conflict there as to what is the cause of the problems and flooding which takes place in the Shannon callows area and, I suppose, in Ballinasloe. I also refer to the River Shannon, its contribution to the flooding and the investment which might be needed to ensure areas like the Shannon callows do not have the difficulties they had this summer when farming was impossible and people lost their livelihood, or a significant portion of it. Will the Minister of State comment on whether any progress has been made in resolving the issue and difficulties which appear to be there in terms of the interpretation of the problem and eventually coming to a conclusion? The IFA holds a very strong view on the problem and previous speakers spoke about the ESB and the control of Ardnacrusha. Perhaps the Minister of State will comment on that a little.

Some of the minor works, which have been done around east Galway and the county itself, have been very significant and have made a tremendous difference. I hope they will prevent serious flooding in many of those areas.

I am concerned that the ongoing maintenance required on many of those rivers is not happening. The River Suck drainage board is the most toothless outfit ever invented. It can only carry out works which can be done with a shovel and a spade. In this day and age, when we have so much equipment and machinery, it seems ludicrous. That issue needs to be addressed. Some of the flooding could probably be prevented in some areas if there was ongoing and regular maintenance.

Will the Minister of State comment on any progress made in regard to the Dunkellin river and that whole south Galway flooding issue? Draining the Dunkellin river has been included on every politician's electoral promise list since the 1940s. Some wag said some years ago that if they had started draining it with a spoon at that time, it would have been done by now. Obviously, flooding of the Dunkellin river catchment area is causing significant hardship for the farming community in that area.

The insurance issue is certainly one for some people in Ballinasloe. I have an address which happens to be the same as one a mile away where there was some flooding in 2009. If I am flooded, the end of the world will have arrived because I live on a hill and have no chance of being flooded. However, I discovered that I am probably paying well over the odds for my insurance as a result of having an address in a particular area in Ballinalsoe. The insurance companies are probably milking the situation and are being unfair to customers.

Probably only a handful of people cannot get some insurance cover but there should be something along the lines of what Senator O'Donovan suggested whereby people who cannot get insurance could be covered in some way, whether centrally or by some Government agency. It is obviously very stressful and distressing when there is a lot of rain, one has no insurance and there is a possibility one might encounter flooding again. That issue needs to be examined.

The Minister of State is doing a fine job. He is faring well to be able to ring-fence the money in the difficult times we are in. However, because flooding appears to be a much more frequent problem in some parts of the country, it is important the Government and politicians ensure the Minister of State's Department is adequately funded to ensure communities are protected and the defences required are put in place.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The previous speaker will not need the assistance of Noah's ark given where he is living. He is safe.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I am not so certain about that, a Leas-Chathaoirligh.

I was asked if this was all my fault. I was in a shop in my constituency recently and I happened to say to the lady selling me the newspaper that it was a very wet day. She turned to me and said it was all my fault. It is amazing how quickly the public understands who is now responsible for the mess others have created.

I thank colleagues for their contributions. I suppose the net issue is there is a solution to every problem but the question is the cost of it and whether it is economically viable and will make the difference. We need to have an evidence-based approach which shows clearly that if we are to spend money, it will make a difference. We did not always do that in the past, as Senator Barrett rightly said. Willy-nilly decisions were taken on the basis of political prioritisation of constituencies. This is not a reference to the previous Administration or the former Minister of State, Martin Mansergh-----

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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No, because they did not do that.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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-----who did a fine job in the Department. One of the great advantages of having the CFRAM process, which is long, tortuous and takes five years between the draft, the preliminary, the agreement and the lodging of plans, is that for the first time, we will have some national standard when it comes to the provision of flood maps. That will have a huge impact in terms of future development and planning in this country.

I recently met a county manager who said to me that if we knew then what we know now in terms of the predictability of flooding events in catchment areas, some of the craziest decisions in the world which were taken in the past 15 to 20 years would not have been taken. We will now have a standard whereby we can all say that this is our best guess and estimate in terms of the predictability of flooding events and which we can stand over. That will be hugely significant in terms of resources.

It might well be the case that in some parts of the country, it would be cheaper to relocate people than make a huge multi-million euro investment. That happened along some parts of the River Shannon in the 1920s and 1930s when people were moved to higher ground. Those lands were given to new farmers who now claim there is a solution to this.

I am not a climate change denier but I am here to talk about flood alleviation measures. This is an historic problem. I think Senator Landy made the point that many parts of the country have a historic problem of flooding with or without climate change. I think we are calling it climate change now but it is just low lying parts of the country. When one has this problem of huge fluvial events, which are becoming more regular and, I hasten to add, particular, where perhaps there is three months rainfall in three hours in one part of the country is added to a tidal event - if the tide is in the wrong direction - and wind, to which Senator Clune referred, one will have a major problem. It is the case that we are seeing more fluvial difficulties emerging around the country and we need to be conscious of that.

I assure colleagues that under the EU directive which we signed up to, we recognise climate change scenarios are taken into account in our computation. The analysis of climate change is a matter for Met Éireann and the OPW's flood risk analysis is informed by Met Éireann's climate reviews. Whatever about climate change, this is a historic problem which we are dealing with and which has become more acute in recent years. A bit like the French Revolution, it is too early to say whether it is all down to climate change. However, there is certainly an issue-----

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State is contradicting the science.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I am not contradicting the science; I am just trying to be objective about it and not political like the Senator. With all due respect, the Senator would have had more to say at the start of the debate than at the end of it if he had been better informed.

On the question Senator Sheahan raised concerning Mallow and Fermoy, he is absolutely right that very significant investment has occurred there and those towns are now seeing the benefit of that investment. Senator Landy referred to Carrick-on-Suir. I have been there and have seen these flood walls. I am sure they caused consternation locally but they have worked. There are many examples of where low cost solutions of simply putting in these walls pillar to pillar saves a lot of money.

I was impressed by what I saw in Carrick-on-Suir and was in Fermoy earlier this week where another scheme is under way. It has been completed in one part of the town and we are now proceeding with it in the other. Even though it will cause a lot of disruption to local businesses around Christmas, everyone says he or she is prepared to live with it if he or she is guaranteed he or she will survive if there is a huge deluge. What is so impressive about Carrick-on-Suir and Clonmel is that other parts of the country can ask these communities about the projects and examine their impact. Many parts of Dublin where such events took place in October last year could see the benefits of the investment made. That will be really important when it comes to selling such infrastructural projects to communities.

Senator Tom Sheahan referred to Rossbeigh, where he took me some months ago, and Inch. There is a wider question of coastal erosion. Sand moves quickly and not many people live around sand dunes. People always ask if there is any benefit to be gained in spending money when no one lives there. There are parts of the country where we have made an investment and unless we supplement that investment, we will knock out existing infrastructure, but this is a difficult issue, to which I have not found an immediate solution. However, we are working on it.

Senator Kathryn Reilly made a valid point about North-South co-operation. It is also part of the CFRAM process and we conscious of it. I met the Minister in the North, Ms Michelle O'Neill, and will meet her again shortly. I am encouraged by the work under way in Northern Ireland. I agree with the Senator that those involved in the North are ahead of us in this regard, but we can learn from them and if ever there was an example of North-South co-operation, it must be this one. I am keen to make progress with my colleague in the Northern Executive.

I welcome the remarks of Senator Denis Landy about the flood walls in Carrick-on-Suir. They work, as was the case in Clonmel. He also mentioned afforestation and he is absolutely right. Deforestation has caused difficulty and work has been done by both the OPW and as part of the CFRAM process to improve the position. There is a real issue in having a linkage between all Departments to ensure afforestation to a level where it would be regarded as part and parcel of flood alleviation measures.

Senator Sean D. Barrett asked if we had learned the lessons of what happened in Kilkenny and the answer is yes. At the start we had significant sums of money to spend, but we have a much better idea now about the management of that process and have got the levels right. The Senator also rightly pointed out that the penalty points approach should apply in our dialogue with the insurance industry. I will be blunt about it; I am frustrated by the lack of progress I am making with the Insurance Federation of Ireland. We can bring people to the table and ask them to negotiate, but we must also strike an agreement with them. The federation asks me for evidence of people not getting insurance; it has its own maps which are as exact, if not more so, as ours and the insurers know where the risks are. The companies have taken a huge hit in recent years, about which there is no doubt. If we look at the insurance market in Ireland in terms of flooding, it is half the size of greater Manchester. If there was lots of money to be made here, more insurers would enter the market, but we must find a balance because they have been hit significantly in recent years and they are conscious of this fact. It seems that where we bring a capital project up to a standard to meet a one in 100 years event and it is verifiably secured, as in the case of Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir, the insurers have an obligation to provide insurance. I am still in discussions with them and hope we can come to an agreement. I note that in Britain where there is such an agreement, the insurance companies are now getting out of the market because they do not believe it is of benefit to them. We must find the middle ground because it is not economically feasible for the State to provide insurance cover when it is currently indebted. We will continue with the discussions and I ask the industry to be realistic, particularly where we have made that investment.

I noted Senator Sean D. Barrett's comments about the north side of Dublin. He also referred to the green car park in Farmleigh provided by the OPW. It is a good example of the approach we must extend to other parts of the country because all these very long car parks do is collect huge amounts of water, something of which we must be conscious.

Senator Deirdre Clune spoke about Cork. I wish to assure her the information gleaned in 2009 is part and parcel of the CFRAM for the River Lee. Significant damage has been suffered in Cork in recent years, of which we are conscious. The Senator has asked the pertinent question of who is in charge. I suspect this is an issue for every Department because they are all responsible for dealing with part of the problem. Ultimately, this is a matter for the local authority. Emergency planning is undertaken by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government with the full co-operation and support of the OPW. Our legal responsibility is for arterial drains, but everything else is a matter for the local authority. We are the funding agent for local authorities for minor and major capital works. We also provide engineering solutions, assistance and help, but the first port of call is the local authority.

We learned a lot about emergency planning in dealing with events in 2009 and there is now much better co-ordination between the local authorities, the emergency services, the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and the OPW. The interesting thing about the CFRAM process is that if as a result of it, local authorities can identify a better structure to respond to flood events, we will follow the recommendations made. Until then, however, it is a matter for local authorities.

Applications come from local authorities and we then grant funds for projects. Where a local authority has been significantly hit, as happened in County Cork during the summer, we will fast track applications under the minor works scheme in order that people can see work happening quickly if it makes sense to spend the money. It might make more sense not to spend money for a period of years until we have a greater hydrological solution instead of pretending that spending a small amount will make a difference.

Senator Denis O'Donovan mentioned Bandon and Skibbereen. I was in Bandon recently, where we are now at planning and development stage and working on a solution. I recognise the appalling circumstances that have affected people in the town in recent years, and also in Skibbereen. I will revert to the Senator on both cases with a full answer.

The Senator also asked about a universal system of insurance. I have asked for work to be done on this issue to see if this would be possible. I would not be very optimistic such a system could be put in place without working more closely with the insurance industry. If that relationship comes to nothing, we must look at a greater response, but we would have to consider the issue of financial viability.

I very much agree with the Senator when he mentions cleaning culverts and rivers. There are basic maintenance jobs that must be done in rivers and culverts to ensure there are no impediments to prevent the flow of water.

I agree with the Senator that the removal from a river scheme of logs, trees and other debris is the kind of basic maintenance work that needs to take place.

Senator Tony Mulcahy spoke about Ennis. I have visited phase 1 of the scheme which involved a car park that presented a real problem some years ago. It has been a huge success. There might be tendering difficulties with phase 2 of the scheme, but I am confident that we can make progress with it, complete the job and move on. When we start something, it is very important that we finish it. If we do not do so in this case, we will lose all of the benefits of phase 1.

Senator Tony Mulcahy also spoke about Sixmilebridge. I am not convinced that it is the responsibility of the Office of Public Works, but I will look at the matter again. The Senator also referred to Ardnacrusha and the River Shannon, which were also mentioned by Senator Michael Mullins. I met representatives of the ESB yesterday to talk about the River Shannon issue with Waterways Ireland and other groups. I was fascinated to discover that just 1.5% of the electricity supplied by the ESB was transmitted from Ardnacrusha. Between 50% and 80% of the electricity supply was transmitted from Ardnacrusha in the 1920s and 1930s. That was before the plants at Moneypoint and other places started to meet the great majority of the demand for electricity. The River Shannon is no longer of great significance in terms of the country's energy or power supply. The ESB can work with us on water levels. The competing interests along the River Shannon - those with boats, farmers and the ESB, etc - need to work more closely. The OPW is the lead agency in this regard, but it does not have direct responsibility for it. I am reminded of Tony Benn's famous book, Office Without Power. What is the point in having responsibility for something if one cannot actually direct people to do what one wants?

We are working with the ESB to examine water levels on Lough Ree and Lough Allen, particularly in the context of the more difficult flooding events that occur along the River Shannon each summer and winter. I can inform Senator Michael Mullins that the flood that happened along the River Shannon this summer was, to be blunt, a winter flood. The gradient between Athlone and the area beyond the Shannon Callows means water stays in the callows for a long period before it flows gradually into the River Shannon. I agree that this problem could be solved, but how much would it cost? We need to run the numbers to see whether it would be viable for that to happen. All of these issues will be addressed as part of the CFRAMS process and I have been engaging with all of the stakeholders. We need to look at alternatives. We should be able to do something different if we know that a huge amount of water is coming. There is a view locally that such measures would make a difference, but the experts tell me they would not because the callows have always flooded. We need to examine that aspect of the matter. I appreciate the real difficulty farmers in the area are facing. I refer, in particular, to the area south of Meelick, where the Suck, Brosna and Shannon rivers are in close proximity. As a jackeen, I am beginning to get on top of this problem.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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We are depending on the Minister of State.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I will be ready when representatives of the IFA come knocking on my door.

I was also asked about Dunkellin in south Galway. The real problem in that area is presented by the local topography and it is a very difficult issue to sort out. We are working with Galway County Council, with which we have developed a very good relationship on foot of the significant flooding that has occurred in south Galway. We will see whether solutions can be found.

I hope I have tried to answer some or all of the questions asked. This issue will not go away. I suspect that when my short obituary of one or two lines is written, it will focus on this issue. I doubt it will say "he solved the flooding problems in Ireland". One would want to be around for another 150 years to solve all of them. The OPW has taken a huge interest in this problem. The corpus of expertise it has built up during the CFRAMS process will be hugely important for the country into the future. It will be the first time we will have the evidence needed. That will be really significant when investment decisions are being made and we are arguing to the Departments of Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform that capital investment is required. The support of colleagues in this House and elsewhere will be crucially important in getting many of these projects over the line.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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When is it proposed to sit again?

Tom Shehan (Fine Gael)
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Dé Máirt seo chugainn ar 2.30 p.m.