Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I am not contradicting the science; I am just trying to be objective about it and not political like the Senator. With all due respect, the Senator would have had more to say at the start of the debate than at the end of it if he had been better informed.

On the question Senator Sheahan raised concerning Mallow and Fermoy, he is absolutely right that very significant investment has occurred there and those towns are now seeing the benefit of that investment. Senator Landy referred to Carrick-on-Suir. I have been there and have seen these flood walls. I am sure they caused consternation locally but they have worked. There are many examples of where low cost solutions of simply putting in these walls pillar to pillar saves a lot of money.

I was impressed by what I saw in Carrick-on-Suir and was in Fermoy earlier this week where another scheme is under way. It has been completed in one part of the town and we are now proceeding with it in the other. Even though it will cause a lot of disruption to local businesses around Christmas, everyone says he or she is prepared to live with it if he or she is guaranteed he or she will survive if there is a huge deluge. What is so impressive about Carrick-on-Suir and Clonmel is that other parts of the country can ask these communities about the projects and examine their impact. Many parts of Dublin where such events took place in October last year could see the benefits of the investment made. That will be really important when it comes to selling such infrastructural projects to communities.

Senator Tom Sheahan referred to Rossbeigh, where he took me some months ago, and Inch. There is a wider question of coastal erosion. Sand moves quickly and not many people live around sand dunes. People always ask if there is any benefit to be gained in spending money when no one lives there. There are parts of the country where we have made an investment and unless we supplement that investment, we will knock out existing infrastructure, but this is a difficult issue, to which I have not found an immediate solution. However, we are working on it.

Senator Kathryn Reilly made a valid point about North-South co-operation. It is also part of the CFRAM process and we conscious of it. I met the Minister in the North, Ms Michelle O'Neill, and will meet her again shortly. I am encouraged by the work under way in Northern Ireland. I agree with the Senator that those involved in the North are ahead of us in this regard, but we can learn from them and if ever there was an example of North-South co-operation, it must be this one. I am keen to make progress with my colleague in the Northern Executive.

I welcome the remarks of Senator Denis Landy about the flood walls in Carrick-on-Suir. They work, as was the case in Clonmel. He also mentioned afforestation and he is absolutely right. Deforestation has caused difficulty and work has been done by both the OPW and as part of the CFRAM process to improve the position. There is a real issue in having a linkage between all Departments to ensure afforestation to a level where it would be regarded as part and parcel of flood alleviation measures.

Senator Sean D. Barrett asked if we had learned the lessons of what happened in Kilkenny and the answer is yes. At the start we had significant sums of money to spend, but we have a much better idea now about the management of that process and have got the levels right. The Senator also rightly pointed out that the penalty points approach should apply in our dialogue with the insurance industry. I will be blunt about it; I am frustrated by the lack of progress I am making with the Insurance Federation of Ireland. We can bring people to the table and ask them to negotiate, but we must also strike an agreement with them. The federation asks me for evidence of people not getting insurance; it has its own maps which are as exact, if not more so, as ours and the insurers know where the risks are. The companies have taken a huge hit in recent years, about which there is no doubt. If we look at the insurance market in Ireland in terms of flooding, it is half the size of greater Manchester. If there was lots of money to be made here, more insurers would enter the market, but we must find a balance because they have been hit significantly in recent years and they are conscious of this fact. It seems that where we bring a capital project up to a standard to meet a one in 100 years event and it is verifiably secured, as in the case of Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir, the insurers have an obligation to provide insurance. I am still in discussions with them and hope we can come to an agreement. I note that in Britain where there is such an agreement, the insurance companies are now getting out of the market because they do not believe it is of benefit to them. We must find the middle ground because it is not economically feasible for the State to provide insurance cover when it is currently indebted. We will continue with the discussions and I ask the industry to be realistic, particularly where we have made that investment.

I noted Senator Sean D. Barrett's comments about the north side of Dublin. He also referred to the green car park in Farmleigh provided by the OPW. It is a good example of the approach we must extend to other parts of the country because all these very long car parks do is collect huge amounts of water, something of which we must be conscious.

Senator Deirdre Clune spoke about Cork. I wish to assure her the information gleaned in 2009 is part and parcel of the CFRAM for the River Lee. Significant damage has been suffered in Cork in recent years, of which we are conscious. The Senator has asked the pertinent question of who is in charge. I suspect this is an issue for every Department because they are all responsible for dealing with part of the problem. Ultimately, this is a matter for the local authority. Emergency planning is undertaken by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government with the full co-operation and support of the OPW. Our legal responsibility is for arterial drains, but everything else is a matter for the local authority. We are the funding agent for local authorities for minor and major capital works. We also provide engineering solutions, assistance and help, but the first port of call is the local authority.

We learned a lot about emergency planning in dealing with events in 2009 and there is now much better co-ordination between the local authorities, the emergency services, the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and the OPW. The interesting thing about the CFRAM process is that if as a result of it, local authorities can identify a better structure to respond to flood events, we will follow the recommendations made. Until then, however, it is a matter for local authorities.

Applications come from local authorities and we then grant funds for projects. Where a local authority has been significantly hit, as happened in County Cork during the summer, we will fast track applications under the minor works scheme in order that people can see work happening quickly if it makes sense to spend the money. It might make more sense not to spend money for a period of years until we have a greater hydrological solution instead of pretending that spending a small amount will make a difference.

Senator Denis O'Donovan mentioned Bandon and Skibbereen. I was in Bandon recently, where we are now at planning and development stage and working on a solution. I recognise the appalling circumstances that have affected people in the town in recent years, and also in Skibbereen. I will revert to the Senator on both cases with a full answer.

The Senator also asked about a universal system of insurance. I have asked for work to be done on this issue to see if this would be possible. I would not be very optimistic such a system could be put in place without working more closely with the insurance industry. If that relationship comes to nothing, we must look at a greater response, but we would have to consider the issue of financial viability.

I very much agree with the Senator when he mentions cleaning culverts and rivers. There are basic maintenance jobs that must be done in rivers and culverts to ensure there are no impediments to prevent the flow of water.

I agree with the Senator that the removal from a river scheme of logs, trees and other debris is the kind of basic maintenance work that needs to take place.

Senator Tony Mulcahy spoke about Ennis. I have visited phase 1 of the scheme which involved a car park that presented a real problem some years ago. It has been a huge success. There might be tendering difficulties with phase 2 of the scheme, but I am confident that we can make progress with it, complete the job and move on. When we start something, it is very important that we finish it. If we do not do so in this case, we will lose all of the benefits of phase 1.

Senator Tony Mulcahy also spoke about Sixmilebridge. I am not convinced that it is the responsibility of the Office of Public Works, but I will look at the matter again. The Senator also referred to Ardnacrusha and the River Shannon, which were also mentioned by Senator Michael Mullins. I met representatives of the ESB yesterday to talk about the River Shannon issue with Waterways Ireland and other groups. I was fascinated to discover that just 1.5% of the electricity supplied by the ESB was transmitted from Ardnacrusha. Between 50% and 80% of the electricity supply was transmitted from Ardnacrusha in the 1920s and 1930s. That was before the plants at Moneypoint and other places started to meet the great majority of the demand for electricity. The River Shannon is no longer of great significance in terms of the country's energy or power supply. The ESB can work with us on water levels. The competing interests along the River Shannon - those with boats, farmers and the ESB, etc - need to work more closely. The OPW is the lead agency in this regard, but it does not have direct responsibility for it. I am reminded of Tony Benn's famous book, Office Without Power. What is the point in having responsibility for something if one cannot actually direct people to do what one wants?

We are working with the ESB to examine water levels on Lough Ree and Lough Allen, particularly in the context of the more difficult flooding events that occur along the River Shannon each summer and winter. I can inform Senator Michael Mullins that the flood that happened along the River Shannon this summer was, to be blunt, a winter flood. The gradient between Athlone and the area beyond the Shannon Callows means water stays in the callows for a long period before it flows gradually into the River Shannon. I agree that this problem could be solved, but how much would it cost? We need to run the numbers to see whether it would be viable for that to happen. All of these issues will be addressed as part of the CFRAMS process and I have been engaging with all of the stakeholders. We need to look at alternatives. We should be able to do something different if we know that a huge amount of water is coming. There is a view locally that such measures would make a difference, but the experts tell me they would not because the callows have always flooded. We need to examine that aspect of the matter. I appreciate the real difficulty farmers in the area are facing. I refer, in particular, to the area south of Meelick, where the Suck, Brosna and Shannon rivers are in close proximity. As a jackeen, I am beginning to get on top of this problem.