Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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I, too, welcome the Minister to the House. I welcome the Bill and agree with its provisions. While there is some concern about it, the subject with which it deals should have been dealt with many years ago. Approximately seven or eight years ago, I met the then Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, in my capacity as a member of the IFA. He stated then he would consider introducing a grant to help people experiencing difficulty in rural areas. We allowed the Celtic tiger to pass by but this was not done. Unfortunately, we are not in a position at this point to introduce a grant but it is vital that we protect public health. We do not want to see cryptosporidium in the water in any county, as was the case in Galway some years ago. This created a very serious problem and the council had to draw in water for people.

There has been much scaremongering on this issue in recent months, particularly regarding the introduction of an inspection charge of €300. In these times, €50 is quite a lot of money but its not a significant charge. It covers the owners of septic tanks for five years.

I agree with Senator Keane on the desirability of grant aid for people who encounter serious difficulties, perhaps based on means tests.

I commend the Bill to the House. It has to be implemented because we cannot allow our water resources to deteriorate further. We must put our environment in order.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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We are debating what I consider to be an abomination of a Bill which attacks the rural Ireland that the Minister, Deputy Hogan, promised to defend at the many RISE meetings he attended. Since the election, he appears to have forgotten the promises he made to protect the people's interests.

This Bill will create a private army of inspectors who will have greater powers than the Oireachtas. How are Fine Gael Senators and councillors going to explain to their constituents that an army of inspectors and appeals officers, all of whom will be appointed by the EPA with the consent of the Minister, will have the power to enter houses and properties to inspect and monitor waste water treatment systems? The legislation allows them to set up camp for up to a week. They can take photographs of waste treatment systems, instruct residents not to disturb parts of their own premises, use diggers to carry out surveys of the soil and inspect records and other private information relating to waste water treatment systems. While the legislation states that inspectors require the permission of occupiers to enter, it will be an offence for a person to refuse entry to an inspector. I object to any private individual who is not employed by a statutory authority being given power to enter a house. The legislation should give those powers to the local authorities, the EPA or the Department. Who knows what level of political influence will be applied when the Minister's consent is required? This issue needs to be considered in more detail on Committee Stage.

We have already had an extensive debate on the charge and I am not going to rehearse the arguments. How are Fine Gael and the Labour Party Members going to explain to their constituents that they will have to work through all sorts of appeals and upgrading work if they do not comply with the legislation? I regret that the Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy McGinley, is no longer in the House, even though this is not his area of responsibility. How will he tell people in Gweedore, where all the houses are built on top of each other, that they will have to upgrade their tanks and purchase additional land to put in place a new percolation system?

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Scaremongering.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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It is not scaremongering because if a new system is required and the land is not available-----

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Scaremongering of the highest order.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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They are facts. One will need to buy another site.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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If the system needs to be upgraded, a new percolation area will be required. What happens if one cannot afford to buy a percolation area or if the land is not available? In many parts of counties Meath and Donegal where ribbon developed was permitted, insufficient land is available to upgrade septic tanks. Householders will be unable to do what the Minister is requiring of them.

The proposed new section 70D is a Trojan horse which deals with the sale of premises connected to domestic waste water treatment systems. While the legislation benignly states that owners will not be able to sell their properties if they are not registered, nobody will want to buy a house if its septic tank is not up to scratch because of the risk of inspections or being made upgrade. Any solicitor worth his or her salt will have to advise potential purchasers of rural houses to hire a surveyor to determine whether the waste water treatment system is up to the standards required by the legislation. God love anyone trying to sell a house with a 30 year old septic tank and insufficient land for another percolation area. A buyer would be mad to buy a house in a rural area in such circumstances.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Would the Senator prefer the groundwater to be polluted?

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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By and large, these septic tanks are not polluting the groundwater.

James Heffernan (Labour)
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How do you know?

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Most pollution in Ireland comes from local authorities. A considerable number of septic tanks which were built with planning permission and are operating properly are not up to current EPA standards. The owners of these tanks run the risk of being inspected and directed to remediate any problem. These are genuine issues but they can be addressed by the establishment of the grant system several Senators opposite have called for.

I fundamentally object to the principle of giving statutory authority to individuals operating in the private sector. If the Minister can assure me that will not happen, I will be satisfied.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I can satisfy the Senator's concerns.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I hope the Minister can because it is not appropriate for private sector individuals to be given statutory power when they are simply appointed by statutory bodies. That appears to be the case in this legislation.

We will not accept a guillotine on Committee Stage because we are not going to debate the Bill for the sake of it. We intend to study it line by line, as the Constitution requires us to do. It is too important for the guillotine. The way to calm the fears it has generated is to inform people about what it does. That can only be achieved through a full and proper debate in the Parliament of the people.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Ba mhaith liom seasamh pháirtí Shinn Féin ar an Bhille seo a shoiléiriú. Táimid i gcoinne an Bhille ar chuid mhaith bhunúis agus tiocfaidh mé isteach orthu. Tá go leor ráite ag na Seanadóirí eile a labhair romham agus cé go n-aontaímid go bhfuil géarghá le déanamh cinnte de go bhfuil an caighdeán uisce atá le fáil sa tír seo glan, sílimid go bhfuil go leor imeartais agus cluichíochta ar bun ag an Roinn sa Bhille seo, mar a luaigh an Seanadóir a chuaigh romham ansin. Cé go bhfuil sé le feiceáil i gcorr-áit go bhfuil rian beag de thruailliú á dhéanamh ag na dabhcha séarachais seo, ní hiad na dabhcha séarachais is mó is cúis leis na deacrachtaí uisce atá againn. Is iad na comhairlí contae agus na comhairlí áitiúla is measa ag feidhmiú sa tír ó thaobh cúrsaí séarachais de.

Ní gá ach breathnú ar an sampla i mo cheantar féin, an Cheathrú Rua i gConamara. Tá píopaí leagtha le haghaidh scéime séarachais ar an Cheathrú Rua nach bhfuil ag clúdach ach cuid den bhaile. Tá an fuíollábhar ó na leithris ag dul isteach sna píopaí sin agus tá na píopaí ag dul amach díreach san fharraige agus an truailliú glan ag dul amach inti. Táimid blianta fada ag lorg córas séarachais mar is ceart ar an Cheathrú Rua ach ní bhfuairimid é.

Ní eisceacht í an Cheathrú Rua. Tá cuid mhaith pobal ann ar fud na tíre atá sa chás chéanna, daoine amuigh faoin tuath. Tá sé go breá bheith ag éisteacht le Fianna Fáil ag cur i gcoinne an Bhille ach tá cuid mhaith den milleáin ar na Rialtais a chuaigh romhainn mar nach ndearnadh an infheistíocht sna ceantair faoin tuath go gcuireadh scéimeanna séarachais ar fáil ar fud na tuaithe a bheadh in ann déileáil leis na fadhbanna seo. D'admhaigh Seanadóirí a labhair romham go raibh gá na billiúin a infheistiú sa réimse seo ach ní dhearnadh é.

Níl sin maith go leor. Tá na daoine atá ina gcónaí amuigh faoin tuath ag íoc a gcuid cánacha chomh maith le duine ar bith eile. Níl mé cinnte an aontaím leis an phointe seo gur rud tuaithe-cathrach atá i gceist. Is féidir baile beag ar bith a phiocadh ina bhfuil córas séarachais ann cheana féin agus tá na bailte sin scoilte.

Arís, ag dul ar ais chuig baile na Ceathrún Rua, tá leath de mhuintir na Ceathrún Rua ar an gcóras nua séarachais ach níl an leath eile. Cén fáth go mbeadh ar mhuintir na Gleanna Móra atá sa Cheathrú Rua an táille a íoc ar an dabhcha séarachais nuair atá duine éicint atá ina chónaí sa tsráidbhaile nach gcaithfidh an táille céanna a íoc? Tá sé iomlán éagórach, sa bhreis ar an méid atáimid ag íoc cheana féin ó thaobh cánacha, mar a luaigh mo chomhghleacaí an Seanadóir Cullinane romham. Tá daoine ag íoc cánach sa tír seo go gcuirfidh seiribhísí poiblí ar fáil ach nílimid á bhfáil. Sa bhreis air sin, tá an Rialtas ag bualadh an universal social charge i mullach orainn agus tá sé ag dul a chur costais bhreise orainn ó thaobh na dtithe ina bhfuilimid inár gcónaí. Tá táillí breise ar na málaí plaisteacha agus eile agus eile. An duine atá thíos leo siúd i gcónaí ná an duine nach bhfuil a dóthain ioncaim aige le coinneáil ag imeacht mar atáimid faoi láthair.

Ar an taobh eile, d'áirigh mé Seanadóirí ag rá linn nach bhfuil an t-airgead againn le híoc as an chóras nua. Nílimid ag caint ach ar chúpla milliúin leis an water authority seo a chur ar bun. Má mhéadaíonn an Rialtas €50 fá 400,000 dabhcha séarachais, gheobhaidh sé thart ar €2 milliúin. Tá timpeall ar an méid sin i gceist ag an Aire ó thaobh costas riarthach an údaráis uisce nua seo. Chuir an Rialtas seo síniú le seic ar €750 milliún cúpla seachtain ó shin do shealbhóirí bannaí neamhráthaithe, unguaranteed bondholders, in Anglo Irish Bank. Ansin, tá sé de mhuineál aige casadh timpeall ag muintir na hÉireann agus a rá nach bhfuil aon airgead againn. Níl sin maith go leor agus ní ghlacfaimid leis sin. Tá an Rialtas chun an rud céanna a dhéanamh ó thaobh na nótaí gealltanais, na promissory notes, in Anglo Irish Bank; tá sé ag magadh faoi mhuintir na hÉireann agus ní ghlacfaimid leis.

Caithfidh an Rialtas rud éicint eile a dhéanamh maidir le hinfheistiú sna córais séarachais phoiblí. Ós rud é go bhfhuil mé ar an Dara Céim den iniúchadh seo, ba mhaith liom ceist a chur: cén comparáid atá déanta ag an Roinn leis an bhealach atá an rialachán seo á chur i bhfeidhm i dtíortha eile? Tá samplaí luaite de na Sé Chontae, áit ina bhfuil Sinn Féin, mo pháirtí féin, ag plé leis an Rialtas agus tá córas á chur i bhfeidhm ansin nach bhfuil ag cosaint airgid bhreise ar an cháiníocóir, áit ina bhfuil siad ag fáil desludging uair sa bhliain. Cén fáth nach féidir córas den chineál sin a chur i bhfeidhm anseo? Cén slí ina bhfuil an córas seo á chur i bhfeidhm ar Mhór-roinn na hEorpa. An bhfuil siad ag íoc na dtáillí céanna ansin?

Tá pointe tábhachtach luaite ag an Seanadóir Byrne: cearta an duine príobháidigh in aghaidh chearta an Stáit. In alt amháin sa Bhille, deirtear go bhfuil sé de cheart agam rochtain ar mo chuid talún a dhiúltú do dhuine ach, ar an taobh eile, mura ligim isteach é, táim ag briseadh an dlí. Tá an Rialtas chun coirpigh a dhéanamh de mhuintir na tuaithe má sheasaimid suas dár gcuid cearta. Ba mhaith liom fáil amach dearcadh an Ard Aighne ar an gceist sin.

Tá soiléiriú ag teastáil maidir leis an cheist cén caoi is féidir an táille seo a ardú. Tosnaíonn sé ag €50 ach cén caoi is féidir é a ardú?

Tá go leor ama breise ag teastáil uaim mar táim ag iarraidh pointí a dhéanamh. Ní leor cúig nóiméad leis an méid atá sa Bhille seo a phlé agus is trua go bhfuilimid teoranta don méid seo ama. Ní ghlacaim leis go bhfuilimid ag cur deiridh leis seo. Tá gá le tacaíocht a thabhairt do dhaoine má tá retrofitting le déanamh do septic tanks. Níl sé d'acmhainn ag daoine atá amuigh ansin faoi láthair. Níl a fhios agam cén pláinéad ar a bhfuil an Rialtas ina chónaí ach an dream lena mbuailim, níl an t-airgead acusan le dul ag íoc as septic tanks nó as córas nua. Níl sé sách maith ar chor ar bith go mbeadh an Rialtas ag iarraidh an rud seo a bhrú chun cinn in aghaidh thoil na ndaoine.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Go raibh maith agat, Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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As there are no Opposition Members present, we will ask the Minister to reply.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I thank all the Senators who have participated in the debate and I will address some of the issues raised in their contributions.

Senators Brian Ó Domhnaill and Thomas Byrne talked about an army of inspectors descending on people's private property. What I am doing in this legislation is no different from what Fianna Fáil did with the building energy regulations scheme, where it provided for private inspection of the energy performance of buildings. That is allowed. The national car tests are private inspections carried out on motor cars. Several local authorities, including that in Donegal, have private panels for site assessment for planning purposes.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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What is the point of order?

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, will the Fianna Fáil Members who indicated their intention to speak be allowed to come in after the Minister's contribution?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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No.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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No, I went to the list and the Leader of the House proposed-----

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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We have speakers.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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----- that I move to the Minister.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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That is appalling because many Fianna Fáil Members have indicated their intention to speak.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I called for a quorum.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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They had prepared contributions.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I called for speakers.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I object because Members were told the debate on the Bill would extend until 2.30 p.m.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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If the Minister would like to continue-----

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The debate will now be guillotined. Is that what Members are being told?

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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Please respect the Chair.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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It is not. The Senator should, please, resume his seat.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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I was present-----

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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This is a disgrace. No wonder the Minister is trying to hoodwink Members.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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I should have been called, as I was present and my name was on the list.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The manner in which the Bill was introduced was an attempt to hoodwink the people.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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The Senator should, please, resume his seat.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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This is an outrageous attack on democracy and the Acting Chairman should not allow herself to be a part of it.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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The Senator should, please, resume his seat.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The Acting Chairman should not allow herself to be part of an operation to stifle debate in the House.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I ask the Senator to resume his seat.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The Acting Chairman should not be part of this operation-----

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Will the Senator, please, resume his seat?

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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-----to stifle debate in the House. It is outrageous.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Is the debate on the Bill being guillotined? This is an attack on democracy and rural Ireland. The Members opposite should be ashamed of themselves.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I ask the Senator to resume his seat.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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It is absolutely disgraceful.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Please respect the Chair.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I cannot believe it.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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This is a trick of the highest order in a Parliament of the people-----

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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After the quorum was called, Fianna Fáil Members were not present.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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----- in which Members are anxious to debate the issues involved in this legislation.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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There was no one in the House on the opposite side.

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order-----

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, Senator O'Sullivan was in the House. Moreover, I had offered to speak before the Minister stood up.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Excuse me. Senator O'Sullivan was in the Press Gallery.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I had offered to speak. I got to my feet but was not allowed to speak.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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The Senator was not in the House and was, therefore, not counted in seeking a quorum. I asked whether there were speakers.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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With the greatest of respect to the Acting Chairman, I remained in the Press Gallery while a quorum was being sought. I was in my seat before she asked the Minister to speak.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I asked whether there were speakers.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Sneaky politics.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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The Leader asked-----

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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My name was on the list.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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----- that if there were no speakers-----

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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I was present.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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----- I should ask the Minister to speak. The Minister should continue.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Acting Chairman-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Under the Water Services Act 2007-----

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, Acting Chairman-----

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, can Members show some respect for the Minister by allowing him to speak?

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Government Members should show some respect for the House.

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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They are respecting it. That is exactly what they are doing.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Will the Senator, please, resume her seat?

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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This is a point of order.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The smile on the face of the Leader of the House says it all.

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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It is a point of order.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I ask all Senators to resume their seats.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The smile on the face of the Leader says it all.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Will the Senators, please, resume their seats?

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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A trick has been accomplished-----

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Members opposite were not present.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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----- and, unfortunately, the Acting Chairman appears to have been complicit in it.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Senators, please.

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I am still trying to raise a point of order.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order-----

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The Acting Chairman should remove herself from the Chair.

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I am still trying to raise a point of order.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Will the Senators, please, resume their seats?

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order-----

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Senator Wilson, on a point of order.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Acting Chairman. To restore calm, I understand from two of my colleagues who had indicated they wished to speak that they were present in the Chamber but the Acting Chairman called the Minister.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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They were not present.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I respect each Member of the House, including the Acting Chairman, and people can make mistakes. However, my clear understanding from two of my colleagues is that their names were on the list supplied to the Chair and they had indicated they wished to speak on the Bill.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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They were not present.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, I was here.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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The Senator was in the Press Gallery.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Consequently, I respectfully request that they be facilitated in so doing.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I respect what the Senator has said. I did ask whether there were speakers. I had a list and the speakers included were not present. It was then proposed by the Leader of the House that I move immediately to the Minister, which is what I did. I invite the Minister to speak. The record will clearly show------

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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I will not accept what the Acting Chairman said. With the greatest of respect to the Minister, whom I respect, I have never been as agitated in making a point of order since I was first elected to the House. Am I invisible? I remained in the Press Gallery in order that it would be convenient for a recall. I was sitting in my chair before the Acting Chairman addressed the Chamber. I am not invisible and I am not telling lies.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I can confirm that. I had offered to speak before the Minister rose, but I was not allowed to speak.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Okay.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I was on my feet the minute the Acting Chairman called the Minister. With all due respect, I was standing.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I have made my decision.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I seek the adjournment of the House. Fianna Fáil does not accept the Chair's ruling.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The smile on the Leader's face says it all.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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They want to get away with it.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Is that what the record will show?

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I am suspending the sitting for five minutes and will ask the Cathaoirleach to restore order.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I call the Minister.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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With all due respect-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is this a point of order?

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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It is a point of order. Two members of our party had indicated to speak before the Minister was called, as the Member who was in the Chair will confirm. Two of our members have been denied the right to speak on Second Stage of a very important Bill. I ask for the Cathaoirleach's ruling on this situation because I believe a genuine error was made by the Acting Chair. Two, in fact three, of our members had offered to speak and were present in the Chamber. We are not going to permit this, where a Bill is rushed through and a Minister is called in to try to nobble and quieten our Members who are listed to speak and had offered to do so. We are not going to accept it and they must be offered the opportunity to speak on this Bill.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Acting Chair has reported to me. The Acting Chair did not try to nobble anybody-----

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I said a genuine error had been made.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Acting Chair did not try to nobble anybody.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I did not use that phrase. I said a genuine error had been made.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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She called the Minister because there was no other speaker offering at the time. There were 11 Members in the House when the quorum was called but nobody was offering to speak. I have made a ruling on it. I am going with the Acting Chair and I call on the Minister to respond.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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With respect, I want to record that I was on my feet before the Minister stood.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, I also want to record that the Minister and the Leader of the House had a smile at each other as this was transpiring. That certainly adds to the perception of wrongdoing.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I have made a ruling on it. I call Senator Wilson.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, I accept the Cathaoirleach's ruling. I respect this House and I accept that the Acting Chair may not have noticed the two colleagues who indicated. However, I want to put it on the record of the House that they were here, they did indicate, which is my clear understanding, and they were listed to speak. In good faith, having been in the Chair myself on many occasions when quorums were called, I always allowed sufficient time for people to get back into the House.

Members are criticising our colleague for calling a quorum. He is quite entitled to call a quorum under the Standing Orders of this House and it is a long-standing precedent that time would be given to colleagues to re-enter the Chamber. I want to put it on the record of the House that it is my clear understanding - I believe my colleagues - that they were here and had indicated, as well as having been mentioned on a list that is in front of the Cathaoirleach. None the less, I accept the Cathaoirleach's ruling.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Thank you. I can only say that I take in good faith everything the Whip has said but the Acting Chair has reported to me and I have to back the Acting Chair in this case. I have made my ruling. I call on the Minister.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, the Cathaoirleach or the Acting Chair made no mention of the list of speakers. The list of speakers may not be mentioned in Standing Orders but the list of speakers-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The list of speakers-----

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Apart from the fact that my colleagues pointed out that they did indicate, the list of speakers is part and parcel of the practice of parliamentary procedure in this House.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The list of speakers and the speakers present are two different things.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Apart from the fact my colleagues had indicated they wished to speak, nothing was made of the list of speakers. Is that list of speakers to be totally disregarded in the future?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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As the Senator well knows, a list of speakers and the speakers present in the House are two different things. I call Senator O'Sullivan.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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I, too, totally respect the Cathaoirleach's judgment on this and I totally accept that the Acting Chair did not act in any biased way. However, Members on the other side of the House are saying I was not in the Chamber. I was in the Chamber before the Acting Chair resumed business. That is it.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I call on the Minister to reply.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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As I was saying, I want to reply to a number of matters and points of view that were raised by speakers, for which I thank all sides of the House. To deal with the issues raised by Senators Ó Domhnaill and Byrne in regard to the army of inspectors, this is no different from the Dog Breeding Establishments Act, which allowed people from the private sector to go onto premises and which the Senators voted for in 2010. It is no different from the private people who are set up as panels by local authorities for planning purposes and no different than the building energy regulation scheme which allows for private people to go onto premises. The notion that they have-----

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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They have sweeping powers.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Yes. The Government of which the Senator was a member did the very same thing and adopted the same powers for which he is now criticising me.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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If people will not allow an inspector onto their land, the Minister is criminalising them.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The Dog Breeding Establishments Bill was passed only last week.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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In case Senator Byrne did not notice, the Dog Breeding Establishments Bill was passed in 2010 and he voted for it. It never ceases to amaze me how some Members of the previous Government and their newly elected colleagues can conveniently forget the commitments that were made and that they made. Allow me to quote from the renewed programme for Government agreed between Fianna Fáil and the Green Party on 10 October 2009. On page 24 of that document, it states: "We will introduce a scheme for the licensing and inspection of septic tanks and wastewater treatment systems." Other Members have-----

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, I am reluctant to interrupt and I know the Minister is trying to make a political point but the record also shows that the then Minister also said that he would engage in widespread public consultation on the issue.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is not a point of order.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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It is, in that the Minister is being selective in his quotes.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is not a point of order.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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A number of Members have advocated that I should do nothing on this. As an Oireachtas Member, I cannot advocate the breaking of European law. This goes back to October 2009 when the then Minister had an opportunity to do something about a European Court of Justice judgment but did nothing.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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He was working on it and he was not going to let Europe dictate.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator want to see the file?

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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How many discussions did the Minister have with the Commission?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I got the results.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Minister to resume his seat. According to the Order of the House, the debate was due to conclude at 2.30 p.m. Does the Leader intend to extend the time for the Minister to complete his reply?

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I propose that the time for the Minister to reply be extended. I am sure the Minister will be completed in five minutes, if he is allowed.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is that agreed?

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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No.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Under Standing Order 63 I wish to seek a manual vote.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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A number of matters have been raised in the course of the debate which I will address now.

First, the Department has examined in detail the regulatory systems that are in place in other jurisdictions. There is no single consistent approach to regulating the use of on-site treatment systems although monitoring and inspection are common features in many of the countries reviewed. Notwithstanding the approach being taken in other countries, this legislation must ensure compliance with the court ruling which requires the establishment of a system of inspection.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The most extreme.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Northern Ireland and Scotland have been mentioned as having regulatory systems which could be replicated here, and people have suggested that there is no charge. In Northern Ireland, regardless of when a septic tank was constructed or installed, discharge consent under the Water (Northern Ireland) Order 1999 is required and with effect from 1 April 2011, the application fee increased from £110 to £115. The assertion that there is no charge is not true.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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It is more focused; it is not a catch-all.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Free desludging, that is where the issue is.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I have waited a long time to say these few words and I listened to Senator Ó Domhnaill.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Minister. without interruption.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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What I am saying does not suit Senator Ó Domhnaill.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister did not want to hear what I had to say.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Minister, without interruption.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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In Scotland, from 1 April 2006, registration of septic tanks with the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency is required, and registration fees are as follows: £77 for on-line application; and £104 for application using a hard copy application form. The notion that there are no fees in other jurisdictions mentioned here today is not correct.

On registration fees here, a number of Senators suggested that the appeal fee of €200 is too high, and I have accepted that. In the course of my address, I indicated I would change that and the figure I have in mind is €20, rather than €200.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The scope of the appeal is too narrow.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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On planning, the scope of the Bill must deal with the fact that the European Court of Justice is in the process of fining us €26,000 a day-----

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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It is very narrow.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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-----arising from the inaction of my predecessors, the Government of Senator Walsh's party.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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It is far too narrow.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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On inspection and the condition of planning that apply, I am introducing a system of planning exemption for the work to be carried out in this regard. I am glad of the opportunity to allay fears about this matter.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Our pressure is working.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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There are no grants. The Government is yielding to the pressure.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I do not know of any situation where grants have been included in legislation. Perhaps Senator Byrne would point me in that direction.

We will consider a grant scheme once the inspection period in 2013 is over and where we see the extent of the work that has to be done in remediation for the one-in-five households that will be inspected on the basis of this risk-based approach.

On any of the scaremongering that we have heard about all of the various charges and the amount of money that it will cost, it costs €2,000 to put in a septic tank and I do not know from where Senator Ó Domhnaill gets €17,000.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The library RIA.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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What about the land costs?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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If Senator Ó Domhnaill supplies me with all of those cases that will cost €17,000, I will have them investigated immediately because if they require that amount of work to be done, they are damaging groundwater under the Water Services Act 2007 brought in by the Government of his party.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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What if one does not own land to put in a percolation system?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The existing systems must be proven to work. That is all that is expected under this scheme.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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They do not even comply with the criteria set down in the legislation.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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On fines,-----

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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They do not meet the criteria.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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-----and the so-called criminalisation,-----

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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We want to see the draft regulations.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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-----under the 2007 Water Services Act there is already an offence of causing pollution with a fine of €15 million and up to five years in prison.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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Who brought that in?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The penalty I am proposing is €5,000. It is much different. In addition, it has been mentioned that there is no support being given for rural areas. Under the rural water programme, a substantial amount of taxpayers' money has been put into upgrading group water schemes and schemes in rural areas. In fact, my predecessors in Government have invested €500 million and I want to acknowledge that. It was a significant success.

The rural water programme has demonstrated, in the EPA samples carried out, massive improvements in the quality of water in rural areas. I have money allocated to that programme in 2012 and I will look at how we can deploy that money in order to help people overcome any difficulties in group water schemes or group sewerage schemes in rural areas. I will seek how we can target resources to help those who need it most.

The grant scheme can only be looked at in the context of the budget of 2014 because in 2013, we will know the extent of the problem arising from the one-in-five inspections carried out. Senator Walsh would not expect me to bring in a grant scheme for something that has not yet happened.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Is the Minister making a commitment that there will be one?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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No. The Minister for Finance must agree this. I would like to provide a grant scheme for many matters, but we are in an EU-IMF programme.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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That has nothing to do with this Bill.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Ajay Chopra has everything to do with many matters.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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With this Bill, nothing.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Brien is giving a solution.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am glad of the opportunity to allay the fears of many people and also to allay the fears of those who spoke during the summer months of a €300 annual charge. I am glad that was not mentioned during the course of this Bill because it no longer applies.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister did not deal with the greater Dublin drainage scheme which needs €2.3 billion.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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Under Standing Order 62(3)(b), I request that the division be taken again otherwise than by electronic means.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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When it is proposed to take Committee Stage?

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Next Wednesday.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is that agreed?

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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No.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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Under Standing Order 62(3)(b), I request that the division be taken again other than by electronic means.