Seanad debates

Thursday, 12 March 2009

10:30 am

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Harbours (Amendment) Bill 2008 — Report and Final Stages, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business.

Photo of John Paul PhelanJohn Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I want to raise a couple of issues with the Leader. We had a full discussion in the House yesterday on the issue of Seanad reform, and I welcomed the opportunity to have that. Following on from a document produced by my party yesterday, we need to set that debate in a wider context of reform of the Oireachtas in general, necessitating the reform of the Dáil and Seanad as well as the committee structure. Whether the Government chooses to accept it, there is a perception that many Members of the Oireachtas receive additional payments for work which should be part of their parliamentary activity, regardless of needing additional payments. The reality is that there are only two or three Members of the other House, I believe, who are not in such remunerated positions. It is necessary at this juncture, when we are seeking solidarity between workers in the public and private sectors, that the Oireachtas and the Government lead by example. We should have a full discussion at the earliest possible opportunity on reform of the systems in the Oireachtas, particularly the committees.

The issue of ministerial pensions being paid to Members of either House who are still sitting, was also raised yesterday. This is an issue that affects a number of people in this House as well as in the other Chamber. It is wrong, I believe, that serving Members of the Oireachtas are in receipt of ministerial pensions while they draw their salaries as Members of the Dáil or Seanad.

I want to propose an amendment to the Order of Business, calling on the Leader to arrange a debate on the economy this afternoon when we finish the Harbours (Amendment) Bill. There is ample time today for a two-hour debate when that Bill is concluded, to discuss with the Opposition views and opinions we have to put forward in advance of the budget. The Minister for Finance was quite clear in his views as expressed a couple of weeks ago to the effect he wanted proposals from the Opposition. Members of my party will be making submissions to the Government, but it is only correct that at this stage before the budget, we in this House on all sides should have an opportunity to put forward our views in advance of its drafting. It is not just good enough to be told we will be involved in some type of co-operative effort after the budget has been drafted. We need to be involved now in advance of its preparation. I hope the Leader can accede to the request for that debate today when we finish with the Harbours (Amendment) Bill.

I want to mention yesterday's march in Belfast which was organised by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions that saw thousands of people from all denominations and none take to the streets in peace and solidarity to express their revulsion over the dreadful acts that have taken place in Northern Ireland within the last week. I compliment the people who arranged that event. There are other people, however, north and south of the Border who have information about what happened in those two attacks and who continue to support the activities of the rump groups which threaten to drag us back to the dark days we thought we had seen the end of. Graffiti has appeared in my area within the last few months supporting these organisations, which was not there before. There are obviously still people who support those who carried out those dreadful acts and it is up to all of us, inside and outside the Oireachtas, to ensure they are called to justice.

I want to express my horror and disgust at the incidents in Germany and the United States, respectively, yesterday where 26 people lost their lives in two appalling shooting incidents. I want to pass on my sympathies to the families of those who were killed and injured.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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I thoroughly support the idea of a debate on the Fine Gael document on reform of the Houses, and it would be very useful for the Government side to provide for it. It should be put out there so we may discuss it. We need to do that particularly at a time of a recession. It was never more important for us to extend to ordinary people the political scrutiny that is crucial in such difficult times.

I interrupted a speaker on the Government side yesterday, and it was not my intention to cast any aspersions on the Senator in question when he was discussing the construction industry. It was just the issue itself that I questioned, not the Senator, and I have raised this matter before. The construction industry cannot even give us the answer as regards how many houses, unsold, empty and waiting to go on the market are available. The construction industry, which has as tenants Home Bond, cannot even agree on the number. Neither of them agrees with the Central Statistics Office nor the Irish Auctioneers and Valuers Institute. That is why I do not trust these people.

There are stories this morning to the effect that CAB is being asked to investigate fraudulent builders who are trying to set up fraudulent sales with fraudsters, trying to cheat us, the banks and the community at large. Also today, there is news of a significant firm of auditors filing a disclaimer, unable to sign off on the accounts of one of the largest building firms in the country on the basis that it cannot confirm these are a true and fair reflection of its business activities. I am quite happy to discuss the construction industry, and particularly the small people who have lost work because businesses have gone to the wall. However, I do not have any need to meet with representatives from the Construction Industry Federation, just to give them yet another opportunity to start off on their merry-go-round of profiteering and greed which has got us into the trouble we are in. I should be happy to have a debate on it, when all aspects can be dealt with, and I ask the Leader to bear that in mind.

Photo of Alex WhiteAlex White (Labour)
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Will the Leader please arrange a debate in this House on the announcement by the Taoiseach, the Minister for Education and Science and others yesterday of what has been described as an innovative task force involving UCD and TCD? At the outset, I want to say we should all welcome such an initiative that would ensure additional funding goes to our universities, so that they might continue to play a vital role in the economy and economic development of the country. Universities have always been crucially important in terms of innovation and economic growth.

On a cautionary note, however, precisely what the Government sees the role of a university to be in the modern world and economy should be explored in such a debate. While I readily agree that universities have played a vital role on the business side and as regards the economy in the past, they do not exist to be at the service of business. The idea of a university is much wider than that and they are not there simply to be at the beck and call, as it were, of business, or simply to produce ideas for the economy. The university has a much wider role to play and traditionally it is very much an independent role.

I should be somewhat cautious about the sense in which, for example, the universities or ideas being brought forward by leading academics and others are being commercialised. There is a wider responsibility on the part of the universities and these are the issues I should like to have teased out with the Minister, if he could come to the Seanad so that we might debate that announcement. There are three other issues in relation to that debate that I believe to be important. A certain nervousness was evident from the other universities earlier in the week. They may have put aside their concerns so as not to be seen in any way to be pouring cold water over yesterday's announcement, which was very welcome. However, we must bear in mind that there are more than two universities in this State and they have played a vital role at all stages as regards scientific pursuits and right across the board. That should be considered.

We should also consider our connections with universities in the North. We hear much talk about an all-Ireland economy. The important connections that have been established between universities in the South and the North should also be part of this initiative.

It is all very well talking about funding initiatives but we must also look at access for young people to third level education. The kite being flown in regard to third level fees is not a million miles away from the issues with which we must deal in this context. That also should be part of the debate. The Minister has been in the House once and should return. This would be an interesting starting point for a debate.

Photo of Mark DalyMark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It is coming up to St. Patrick's week and I thank Stella O'Leary, president of the Irish American Democrats, for her role in ensuring that March 2009 was proclaimed Irish American heritage month by President Obama. I hope the Cathaoirleach and the Taoiseach enjoy their visit to the White House next week. In that proclamation, President Obama outlined the huge contribution by Irish Americans to the unions, such as the famous Red Quill from Kilgarvan — Kilgarvan people are known for causing trouble all over the world. He brought New York to a standstill for nine days by organising a strike telling the trial judge to "drop dead in his black robes" when he was ordered to break the strike. The Caseys from Sneem were world famous rowers and wrestlers.

President Obama also outlined how Irish people left these shores in the Famine hungry but hopeful. In this time of recession, it is important we remain hopeful and are mindful of the great debt we owe the United States for its assistance in our peace process and in our successes. I hope the Cathaoirleach enjoys his trip to the White House.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I very much agree with the remarks of my colleague, Senator John Paul Phelan, in particular those in regard to the sitting days of this House. We could give example. We should sit at least four days per week as well. Much extra work could usefully be given to the Seanad, in particular if the committees are to be reformed.

In these difficult and unprecedented times, no one fortunate enough to be a sitting Member of either House of the Oireachtas, in which we are honoured to serve, should be in receipt of additional moneys by way of a pension or otherwise.

On Senator John Paul Phelan's proposal to amend the Order of Business, much useful work could be done if we allocated two hours to discuss ideas and views. We all have examples. The motor industry, for example, is on its knees. Proposals could be brought forward which we could usefully discuss and recommend to the Minister and which would be revenue neutral. For that reason, I very much support his proposal and second his amendment to the Order of Business.

I very much agree with my colleague from Kerry, Senator Daly, in regard to the great work done by the Quills, the Caseys and many others from different parts of Kerry.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Healy-Raes.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Indeed. I include them all.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader? We are not on a public relations run.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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It is a serious point, given the time of the year. I, too, wish the Cathaoirleach well on his trip and look forward to hearing about his contribution when he returns.

On a much more serious matter, I refer to the arrangements that existed between the lead man in Anglo Irish Bank and the bank in regard to loans and the arrangements with Irish Nationwide Building Society to conceal directors' loans. May we have an assurance from the Leader that no such arrangements existed for directors in other Irish financial institutions?

On the question of recapitalisation and restructuring, we have heard nothing about restructuring despite the promise in that regard at the outset of these difficulties. Will the Leader inform the House of the detailed arrangements that have been made, if they have been made? Recapitalisation is not in place and I presume the €3.5 billion to be given to the two banks cannot be put in place until this is signed off. I refer to the money earmarked for working capital, credit lines for small businesses and small industries, mortgages for first-time buyers of houses and the arrangements in regard to repossessions. I very much support the call of the bishops in regard to repossessions. I know there is a moratorium of one year, but at this tricky and difficult time, putting people out of their houses——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator's point has been well made and I do not want a little speech on it.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that. A rent arrangement could be put in place rather than putting families out of their houses.

What arrangements have been made in regard to the salaries and other such remuneration of senior banking executives?

11:00 am

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I concur with Senator Alex White's call for a debate on the co-operation between University College Dublin and Trinity College. It is imperative we get benefit from the moneys being invested in research and development. A debate in this House would be timely in order to focus on what is an important, a constructive and, I hope, a beneficial development.

Will the Leader arrange a debate at an early stage on the role and quality or otherwise of our media, their influence on society and their responsibilities? Senator Norris and I engaged strongly on the Defamation Bill. I am minded to call for such a debate because this morning The Irish Times had two lead articles, one of which concerned the forthcoming budget and comments in that regard and the other concerned the very regrettable school shooting in Albertville, Germany. Both articles contained substantive stories. The Irish Examiner dealt with yesterday's report to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service by the Criminal Assets Bureau on mortgage scams, which are very prevalent in the United States. Another lead article on the front page dealt with the school shooting in Germany. The lead story in the Irish Independent concerned a €3,000 hike for Deputies. It dealt with the unfortunate shooting in Germany in a single column on the right-hand side of that page.

I was surprised that one of the best selling broadsheets would deal in such a trivial manner with increments to Members of the Oireachtas. The other evening I listened to the editor of the Irish Independent on a talk show and he came across as responsible in what he said. I am, therefore, of the view that this is not a deliberate attempt to inflame public opinion or to cause civil unrest, but I have concerns. Senator O'Toole put it very eloquently last night when he said that the first casualty in a recession is democracy. Unfortunately, there were very regrettable examples of that in the last century. It is an important issue that I would like addressed.

Increments are a public service issue and should be dealt with in that context. Elected Members of the Oireachtas should not be singled out.

I refer to the comments of Senator Phelan, with which I concur, on the call for a debate on proposals any party brings forward on reforming the Oireachtas. Reducing the number of Ministers of State would have to be done against the background of the role they play and the responsibilities they have. It is in that context the matter should be decided, rather than having a numerical debate. It should be a qualitative rather than a quantitative debate.

Regarding the number of committees and a reduction in their number, which is part of that proposal, I am a member of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. There was a proposal to look at reducing the number of committees by eight or ten — I cannot remember which. The saving was approximately €2 million, two thirds of which were staff costs which could not be reduced. The magnitude of our economic and fiscal difficulties are such that if we start trivialising them by talking about saving €100 here or €200 there purely in a pejorative and prejudiced way——

Photo of John Paul PhelanJohn Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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It is called leadership and setting the tone.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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——we are undermining a national co-ordination to tackle this in a cohesive, co-operative way, which this State needs.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has made his point.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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If we fail to measure up to that in this House and in the media, unfortunately, we will be faced in the next 18 to 24 months with the International Monetary Fund making decisions which will be unpalatable for everyone in the public service and in society. We all have a responsibility to act responsibly and I call for a debate on the issue so those who might disagree with my point of view would also have an opportunity to put their views forward.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I ask for a debate on the Corrib gas field. I do so in light of my considerable concern at the jailing of Ms Maura Harrington and the process which led to it. A former Minister of the Government gave this field away for nothing. The Minister concerned was subsequently jailed in the wake of a corruption scandal. He gave it away to Shell, one of the worst polluters and one of the most avid multinationals. It has been involved in incidents of pollution and was deeply implicated in the judicial murder of Mr. Ken Saro-Wiwa. It literally got away with murder in Kenya and there have been explosions in many other places where it has oil terminals.

I am concerned about this and would be very sorry if, after the Garda having been enlisted on behalf of a multinational, the courts system would begin to play a role in this matter. Judges are above criticism, apparently, and we cannot even ask questions about their remuneration. They are immune from cuts. I am concerned when judges feel free to comment widely on the personality traits of somebody they are sentencing, that having witnessed the behaviour of the person involved_

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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She assaulted a garda.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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She does not believe in her idealism because she witnessed her enjoyment of the public limelight. I wonder about the qualifications - this is not a judicial matter. She then referred Ms. Harrington for psychiatric examination in addition to jailing her for 28 days. Are we returning to eastern Europe? Is it an attempt to use psychiatry to control political expression? This is terribly dangerous territory. She slapped a garda in the face.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Questions to the Leader.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I had my face slapped and the person did not go to jail for 28 days. I am asking for a debate so we can ventilate all these matters.

I congratulate the Green Party. At its conference the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley, said he is attempting to ensure Ireland withdraws from the European Defence Agency. I ask for a debate on this matter. I have always supported Ireland's increasing involvement, through treaties, in the European Union. However, I campaigned against the Lisbon treaty because I failed to get any answer on the important matter of enmeshing Ireland in the international munitions for export trade. Please give me the opportunity this time to campaign in favour of the Lisbon treaty.

I also congratulate the Green Party on its announcement that television licence spongers will no longer go to jail. It was a frightful, stupid mistake. I tabled an amendment on this matter and it was ruled out of order because it might create a charge on the Exchequer.

I support Senator White and others who called for a debate on the university situation. This is a matter which should be properly discussed here. Many people have an interest in this matter, including some representatives of the graduates of the various universities, but it also highlights the fact that the Seanad would be immensely strengthened if the franchise were extended and we had representatives of the Dublin Institute of Technology and the University of Limerick in the House.

We have two universities in the top 200 in the world. We should be very glad of that. Co-operation between universities on research projects and intellectual mergers could be a good thing. I fought against the coercive merger 30 years ago of UCD and Trinity. We have all learned since then. If they can co-operate on research projects and pool their intellectual resources, why not do so? However, we need to know more about it and I support the call for such a debate.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I call on the Leader for a debate on data protection. I am a member of the Committee on Finance and the Public Service and yesterday the Criminal Assets Bureau and the Irish Fraud Bureau attended a meeting of the committee. It is clear that in our effort to preserve a level of civil liberties we are impeding upon the ability of CAB and the Irish Fraud Bureau to access the level of information required to fight crime in the manner in which it has evolved. We may need to revisit this matter. We all want to preserve the highest standards in terms of civil liberties but there are ways in which we can deal with access. One example is the use of the electoral register and other aspects of data protection which can assist the Garda, the Irish Fraud Bureau and others in their work. A debate on that would be most welcome.

I agree with Senator Walsh on the need for a debate on the media. We must be conscious that there is now very little reporting in the media. There are more papers and television and radio shows which have views rather than actual reporting, to the extent that one can only go to sources such as text television to read actual reporting and make one's own decision on the facts rather than reading a series of interpretations of the facts. It would be very healthy for us to have that debate.

I agree and disagree with Senator Norris and others. I welcome the setting up of a task force of our higher academic minds who would come together in the interests of bringing this country forward. It would be vital in any debate that, as with the aspirations of our debate of the previous evening, we would include other third level institutions, not just the Dublin Institute of Technology and the University of Limerick but also the many institutes of technology throughout the country. The nation as a whole has suffered from the elitism within higher levels of third level education where individual universities and institutes of technology have been protectionist and overly competitive in not wanting others to be allowed to research a particular area while they secured the resources for themselves.

Another interesting point would be to tease out the level of expenditure, resources allocated by universities or the level of public money that is given to procure public relations agencies to ensure professors and assistant professors are on the appropriate television or radio shows. My information is that there is quite a considerable amount of it. Let us have that debate, make it all-inclusive and move away from elitism. We should ensure that even though the name of the university is internationally recognised as being in the top 200, we get the best graduates and information. All too often, they are not just in Harvard or the Ivy League; they could be in the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. I would like to think the Sligo Institute of Technology and many others throughout the country have as much to offer as anybody in Trinity or UCD.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I support Senator John Paul Phelan's call, which was seconded by Senator Coghlan, for a special debate today on the economy and establish the practice of having a rolling debate whereby we would allocate two hours per week to an ongoing discussion on the economy.

Today, we should examine Senator Walsh's misunderstanding of Fine Gael's proposals on Oireachtas reform. It would be advantageous to provide that people in full-time employment and with other lucrative salaries do not receive pensions before reaching 60 years of age. It would also be advantageous to reduce the number of Ministers of State, given their proliferation.

Will the Leader arrange for a debate on our use of the excellent Civil Service? Civil servants are recruited from our school system by the most rigorous processes. Why should they be replaced in ministerial offices by a plethora of staff? There is no logic to that. Our fine Civil Service should run the country alongside politicians. We should not source people from outside.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Doing so is effectively a form of patronage and has created an entire industry.

Amid the leaks and the conditioning process ahead of the budget, the notion of a diminution of the carer's allowance has been floated. Will the Leader assure the House that that allowance will be left in place? It saves money in terms of institutional care and nursing home subventions. It allows people to stay where they want and it gives carers jobs in their communities. It is effectively cost neutral and the social benefit——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The point is made.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader assure the House on that matter? Will he also suggest to the Minister that another cost neutral project, a schools building programme, be put in place? If we remove prefabs and enter into the cheapest contracts available so that we can return money to the economy and save the jobseekers allowance, we can build schools and remove prefabs from playgrounds for nothing. I thank the Cathaoirleach for his indulgence.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Do I not have great indulgence?

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader answer the question I raised yesterday? He was to research the matter for me. People are anxious to know whether the Taoiseach will pursue a bilateral agreement next week in respect of our undocumented immigrants in America. Those people are suffering as fugitives and cannot return home. Will the Taoiseach pursue tax harmonisation through the Anglo-Irish agreement? Both questions were asked yesterday.

Photo of Ivor CallelyIvor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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I noted with interest Senator John Paul Phelan's request for a debate on the economy. Numerous times in recent months I asked the Leader about the progress he and the other group leaders have made in trying to agree a schedule for such a debate. A request for a debate on the economy and the attendance of the Minister for Finance is not pragmatic unless there is an appropriate schedule in advance. I look forward to the Leader's response. Will he revert to me on the progress that he and the other group leaders have made with my suggestion?

I support the call for a debate on the TCD-UCD initiative chaired by the Taoiseach. Hopefully, it will be very successful and will prompt other such initiatives on third level campuses. I look forward to the outcome.

Will the Leader inquire into the implications of the closure of a temporary homeless hostel in Dublin and the alternative accommodation that has been arranged for the more than 20 homeless people in this shelter? Will the House support the alliance of groups campaigning to end homelessness in the city?

Photo of Dominic HanniganDominic Hannigan (Labour)
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I join Senator Alex White in welcoming the announcement of a merger of research facilities. It is an excellent initiative that could lead to 30,000 new jobs. I also agree with Senator MacSharry, who stated that the initiative should be extended. We are talking about a four-mile enterprise corridor between the two universities, but that is merely a pathway. We should consider extending it to other third level institutions, perhaps as far north as Queen's University Belfast, the Dundalk Institute of Technology and other regional institutions, including Sligo Institute of Technology. It bodes well for the country. Nokia emerged after little investment in Scandinavia. Given that the next large company will come from the information technology or the green sector, we should be investing in those areas.

We should, therefore, encourage more and more people into maths and science, an issue that was raised in the House yesterday. Forfás, in its most recent document on education and training, pointed out that we have a higher number of maths and science graduates than the rest of Europe. The figure might be as high as 50% and, while it is declining, it is also declining across Europe. Many people are attracted into the maths and science fields. Will the Leader arrange for a debate on how to ensure that level of attractiveness is maintained? It should include a discussion on college fees, access to third level education and access to other educational centres. The McIver report on FETAC colleges, which should have been implemented three or four years ago, should be debated. Will the Leader arrange for a wide-ranging debate on third level education?

Photo of Cecilia KeaveneyCecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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It was sweet of people yesterday to suggest that the answer to the question of the mosquito device was to belittle or support Barry Manilow's music.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We are not discussing music.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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It is sometimes like the Bermuda triangle in the Chamber.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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On the Order of Business.

Photo of Cecilia KeaveneyCecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Leader arrange for a discussion on food safety and healthy food options? In these economically challenging times, people state on radio that they will choose the cheaper option, be it in terms of cuts of meat or snacks. I would appreciate an opportunity to debate the matter of obesity, which has economic and health costs. We should not only discuss how to get cheap food, but also healthy food. We could ask the industry what it is doing to supply healthy options. Previously, I raised this matter in terms of drink, but it would be timely to hold a debate on food now. When people strive to be prudent in their weekly purchases, it is important for adults and children that the food is nutritious as well as cheap.

I will not refer specifically to the multiple murders of recent days. In challenging times, people are pushed into doing things that they would not normally do. Will the Leader arrange for a debate on mental health? Prevention is always better than cure and early intervention is better than no intervention. I will declare my interest as I want music therapy recognised as a clinical mental health intervention. It is timely that the issue of mental health be highlighted, particularly given that many business people are facing pressures. The House should have an opportunity to discuss the ways in which people's difficulties can be alleviated. We should do away with the myth that emotional upset is less important than a physical difficulty. People go to doctors to address the latter, but there is still a stigma attached to mental health issues.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The point is made.

Photo of Cecilia KeaveneyCecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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It is time that the matter is exposed as an aspect of life and one that can be dealt with by a variety of options. A discussion on the subject would be useful.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Any signal from the House to the effect that we condone assaults on gardaí should stop. We should protect gardaí and the full rigour of the law should be applied to anyone who intimidates or assaults them.

In the context of Senator John Paul Phelan's remarks on Oireachtas reform and in light of the forthcoming budget on 7 April, I ask the Leader to arrange for the House to sit on Wednesday and Thursday of next week to avoid sending the wrong message to the wider public that it is unavailable for business. This should be done to enable Members to discuss the budget under the headings of social welfare and education. As for Senator Alex White's comments this morning on third level colleges, I also remind Members that there is a very good university in Cork that should not be forgotten about. Moreover, such a debate should have regard to expenditure on the national development plan, taxation, health issues and communications.

In particular, I refer to the comments made by representatives of Eircom yesterday at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources to the effect it now is reviewing its spending. I remind Eircom that Ireland extends further than the M50 or the M7 and this must be remembered. Were Members to sit next week, it would do a great service to this House and the Oireachtas. I ask the Leader to schedule sittings for next week, as so doing would send a message that Members are serious about reform and the budget as well as being on the side of the ordinary person and those who have lost their jobs in particular.

Photo of John Gerard HanafinJohn Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I support those speakers who have asked for a debate on the economy at the earliest opportunity. As the mini-budget approaches, which is necessary for the stabilisation of our finances, it is important to deal with such issues and to try to focus on those areas in which significant savings can be made. I take up the point made by Senator O'Reilly, which previously was brought to the House's attention by Senator Keaveney, on co-ordinating taxation between the North of Ireland and the Republic. I am certain the Stormont Executive would welcome an opportunity to enhance its funding at present. With that in mind, perhaps a debate on that specific item could be initiated in this House in order that in future, tax harmonisation will be a serious issue to the benefit of both parts of the island.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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I echo the calls for further debate on Seanad reform following the successful debate last night that was prompted by Senator O'Toole's motion. It would be useful for Members to debate Fine Gael's proposals on Seanad reform. I also made some modest proposals for internal reforms to Seanad procedures to make its sittings somewhat more accessible and more relevant. The Leader should take on board these proposals, if possible.

I also welcome the call for a debate on the role of the universities. It would be important in the light of the welcome announcement regarding the merger of research between UCD and Trinity and its potential to create a large number of businesses as well as up to 30,000 jobs. Moreover, there have been some important initiatives from universities and institutes of technology in recent years. I refer in particular to the campus company initiatives in Trinity and the recently announced cross-Border initiative between Dundalk Institute of Technology and a college in the North. This is highly useful and should be debated further.

I also seek a debate on the equality infrastructure and on the announcement at the weekend by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, that the decentralisation of the Equality Authority would be reversed and that additional funding would be provided. I understand that nothing has been done yet to implement that announcement. It would be important to debate what the Government has done thus far to weaken the equality infrastructure and to ascertain whether it can be reversed, as the Minister announced. The Leader should clarify this point.

I ask the Leader for the timing of the civil partnership Bill, which was supposed to come to this House in March. Given that we are nearing the end of March, will this Bill be with Members before Easter?

I welcome the news from the United States that President Barack Obama has announced a lifting of the ban on federal funding for promising embryonic stem cell research. I read President Obama's speech given last Monday, 9 March in which he put things so eloquently. The President's words should provide the context in which Members debate embryonic stem cell research. He speaks of the need not to make a false choice between sound science and moral values.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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This point can be made in the debate.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach. He speaks of the immense potential, and it is no more than this——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Please Senator, my time is closing up.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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——that such research has with regard to trying to seek cures for currently incurable diseases and conditions.

Photo of Eugene ReganEugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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Yesterday, the Taoiseach observed that the budgetary position was a moving target and that it was difficult to gauge the economic growth rate. Initially, a growth rate estimate for this year of -2% was produced, followed by one for -4% and then another for -6.5%. This does not inspire confidence that the Taoiseach is in control of the figures or forecasts or that there is some element of precision in respect of what will form the basis for the budget that will be introduced on 7 April. I appreciate the Government wished to avoid taking measures before the local and European elections to minimise electoral losses.

Photo of Alex WhiteAlex White (Labour)
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Surely not.

Photo of Eugene ReganEugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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At least we have moved to the phase in which the Government recognises the existence of acute economic and public finance problems that must be addressed immediately. All political parties will play their part in this regard and it is important for them all to work from the same base. However, Members do not have to hand the figures and policy options in respect of this budget. I seek the presentation of a comprehensive paper, on which all could agree, containing the best estimates and forecasts available on public finances, the expenditure side, the budget deficit, borrowing, growth, inflation, competitiveness, etc. If Members argue about figures, they will never agree on the policy issues. My first request is that a comprehensive paper on the finances should be made available before Members have their next debate on the economy.

My second question to the Leader pertains to the Government's presentation of an addendum to the stability programme. I refer to its commitments to the European Commission on how to restore Government borrowing to comply with the permissible borrowing limits. The Government has given a commitment of a budget deficit of 9% of gross national product in 2009, which will be reduced to less than 3% by 2013. However, the European Commission criticised the programme that was submitted for being overly optimistic and insufficiently specific. This now has been found to be the case. Consequently, the credibility of the Taoiseach and the Government in respect of identifying the bottom line regarding the extent of the problem in the public finances and the economy is at issue. We must get the figures right. The Taoiseach must get control of them and Ireland must come up with policy prescriptions that will deal with this problem.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has made his point.

Photo of Eugene ReganEugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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This is the Taoiseach's last chance in this regard because if he does not succeed on this occasion and does not get it right, we face guidance from the European Commission or the International Monetary Fund as to how to get out of our economic problems.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has made his point.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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While I do not wish to comment on particular court cases, it is important that Members recognise that gardaí put their lives on the line daily on our behalf. The poster campaign on which the Garda Representative Association has embarked displays the horrific injuries many members have suffered over the years while on duty. Consequently, it is important that Members should send out a strong message that they do not condone assaults in any circumstance on members of the Garda Síochána.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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There should be mandatory custodial sentences for any assault on any member of the Garda Síochána——

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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——or on members of the ambulance corps or firemen who are on duty. There must be respect for such people, especially when they are on duty, as otherwise there will be anarchy on our streets.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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I wish to echo the call for a debate on the universities. While I welcome the merger and it is good to reach a critical mass of academic and research power, I also echo Senator Alex White's point that education is not simply about the economy. Members should recall Newman's idea of the university and the importance of arts and humanities.

I also wish to stress the need for openness in the discussion between the universities. I gather that the president of DCU, Professor von Prondzynski, was unhappy about the lack of openness as this initiative was being negotiated. Such a lack of openness is not desirable.

I compliment my colleague, Senator O'Toole, on his instigation of the debate last night on Seanad reform and compliment the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, on finally committing to taking the necessary step to widen the university franchise in order that graduates of the institutes of technology, the University of Limerick, Dublin City University and other colleges finally will be treated on the same basis as graduates of Trinity and the National University of Ireland. It is certainly true that university Senators have punched above their weight during the years, albeit sometimes punching each other and sometimes the wrong targets. Nevertheless, they have made an important contribution. I disagree with Senator Alex White's comment last night that the current system is elitist. Senator O'Toole's positive proposal that——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should not concern himself with what was said last night. It is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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Will the Leader consider the position of an older person — perhaps an ill person — encountering a sign in Cork University Hospital cordially inviting him or her to an interactive lecture on the subject of why euthanasia should be legalised? How might such a vulnerable person feel? Would he or she think it proper that a speech on why euthanasia should be legalised was funded by public money, as this proposed event appears to be funded by the Health Service Executive? Is this how Cork University Hospital should be spending taxpayers' money?

12:00 pm

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senators John Paul Phelan, O'Toole, Hannigan, Coghlan, Walsh, O'Reilly, Buttimer, Callely, Bacik and Regan called for a debate on the various Seanad reform proposals made by Fine Gael, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the various groupings and parties in the Houses in order to ensure taxpayers obtain the best value for money. I offer Senators a commitment to have an all-day debate on the issue of Seanad reform. Last night's Private Members' business afforded inadequate time for this debate. I thank Senators for their understanding in this regard.

I agree that we must have a comprehensive debate on the issue. We must not lose sight of the achievements of this House and its importance. The entire future of democracy in this country depends on the way in which we conduct our business for the next ten, 20 and 50 years. The success of this peaceful nation depends on everybody's view being heard. This House allows that to happen. We sit late into the night, until 3 a.m., 4 a.m. or 5 a.m, in order that a full debate can take place and debates on Bills are not guillotined. Members will recall that the House sat through the night until 8.20 a.m. to debate the legislation on the guarantee for financial institutions. We are totally committed legislators. We are not involved in the argy-bargy of the political process that takes place in the Dáil.

It is absolutely essential that we conduct our affairs as effectively as possible and that we are perceived to do so by the public. We face a major challenge in seeking to ensure the proceedings of the House are brought into every home in order that the public — the constituents who have given us this responsibility — will see the massive work done in this Chamber on their behalf in scrutinising every item of legislation that comes before us. Included in this is the important task of scrutinising the vast quantity of European Union legislation which arrives not in 20-page or 40-page documents but by the half stone and stone. The House has a major responsibility in that regard.

I look forward to participating at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, under the stewardship of the Cathaoirleach and in co-operation with the various Whips, to examine how we can take Seanad Éireann into the 21st century and make it more relevant. The House must function as the protector of democracy in respect of all the proposals received from the European Union, as well as the new and existing legislation we are required to deal with from various Departments. I will have no difficulty in allocating time for a debate on the issue.

In regard to a debate on the economy, I will discuss the issue with the leaders of the parties and groups at our next meeting. I suggest we leave it as late as we can in order that it can be taken as close as possible to budget day. I understand the Taoiseach will afford the Dáil the opportunity of having a debate on the economy before the budget is announced. It is timely and appropriate that this House should have an all-day debate, if necessary. I am prepared to set aside either a Tuesday or Thursday in order that every Member will have an opportunity to make a contribution.

Senator John Paul Phelan's request for an amendment to the Order of Business is timely. However, we are dealing today with Report Stage of an important Bill initiated in this House. Were I to concede to the amendment, colleagues could be here until 8 p.m., 9 p.m. or later. As Members know, various Ministers will travel to locations throughout the world next week as our ambassadors. We are greatly honoured that the Cathaoirleach will travel to Washington to represent this House. Senator Phelan and other Members know that I have always been forthcoming in response to any reasonable requests for time to be allocated for debates to be attended by the relevant Minister. I offer Members a commitment that they will be given an opportunity to express their views before the budget is announced on 7 April. In addition, we will have an all-day and all-night debate on the budget on Holy Thursday, 9 April. The timeframe is such that we will be required to process the Bill before the Easter recess.

I join Senator Hannigan in congratulating the Irish Congress of Trade Unions on its successful organisation of marches in the North of Ireland yesterday. I congratulate the marchers who came out in their thousands to let the world know that this was a peaceful place and that we did not condone the three murders that had taken place in recent days.

I will have no difficulty in allocating time for a debate on the construction industry, as called for by Senator O'Toole.

Senators Alex White, Walsh, Norris, MacSharry, Callely, Hannigan, Buttimer, Bacik and Mullen have congratulated the Taoiseach and everybody concerned on the establishment of the new task force which involves the coming together of two universities. Various Members asked why the other universities and the institutes of technology were not involved. I will have no difficulty in allowing a debate on the issue and education in general.

Senator Daly referred to the announcement by the President of the United States, Mr. Barack Obama, that March was to be declared Irish-American heritage month. The Senator will join the Taoiseach and the Cathaoirleach in Washington on St. Patrick's Day. I am aware that he has many contacts there at the highest level.

Senator Coghlan called for a debate on banking issues. I propose that this be accommodated within the broader debate on the economy. I take the Senator's proposals in the spirit in which they were made.

Senators Walsh and MacSharry called for a debate on the media, particularly the responsible media. The big winner seems to be the teletext service. Many of us find ourselves checking it at 7 a.m. in our search for cold, hard facts as they are emerging rather than the personal views of a particular commentator. Such a debate would be timely.

Senator Norris called for a debate on the Corrib gas field. I will have no difficulty in allocating time for this purpose. The Senator also called for a debate on the European Union which I propose should take place after the Easter recess.

Senator MacSharry called for a debate on data protection. As legislators, we will be forthcoming in providing any assistance that may be required by the Garda Síochána in this regard. The screening of "Veronica Guerin" on television last night brought home the difficulties experienced by the Garda Síochána and journalists with regard to the horrific murder of Veronica, who we all knew so well. Senator Cummins called for mandatory sentencing of anyone convicted of the crime outlined by him. We support his call.

Senator O'Reilly referred to the schools building programme, on which €640 million is being spent this year. The Senator is pleased about that and we in the midlands are pleased that Loughegar has a brand new school in these difficult times for the economy. I will pass on his views to the Minister. He expressed strong views on a bilateral agreement with the United States on the undocumented Irish there. I will pass on his views to the Taoiseach before his visit to Washington.

Senator Callely called for a debate on homelessness and I agree to this taking place. Senator Keaveney outlined her views on obesity and food options. "The Tubridy Show" was enlightening on this subject this morning and I have no difficulty including this aspect in our debate on health issues when the Minister for Health and Children comes to the House. Senator Keaveney also called for a debate on mental health and music therapy, which is very uplifting. Anyone in the world knows how uplifting music is. It lifts the spirits of everyone and I have no difficulty in including this aspect in the health debate.

Senator Bacik called for a debate on the Equality Authority and I can accede to the request. She also asked about the civil partnership Bill, which was due in this House. I am endeavouring to get the date for its publication but I understand that the priorities of draftspersons are being examined. This Bill will come to the House and I hope it will be before the summer recess.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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Can we still afford it?

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator John Paul Phelan has tabled an amendment to the Order of Business: "That a two-hour debate on the economy be taken after No. 1." Is the amendment being pressed?

Photo of John Paul PhelanJohn Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Amendment put.

The Dail Divided:

For the motion: 17 (Ivana Bacik, Jerry Buttimer, Paudie Coffey, Paul Coghlan, Maurice Cummins, Pearse Doherty, Paschal Donohoe, Frances Fitzgerald, Dominic Hannigan, Fidelma Healy Eames, Michael McCarthy, David Norris, Joe O'Reilly, John Paul Phelan, Eugene Regan, Brendan Ryan, Alex White)

Against the motion: 24 (Dan Boyle, Martin Brady, Larry Butler, Ivor Callely, Ciarán Cannon, Donie Cassidy, Maria Corrigan, Mark Daly, John Ellis, Geraldine Feeney, Camillus Glynn, John Gerard Hanafin, Cecilia Keaveney, Tony Kett, Terry Leyden, Marc MacSharry, Labhrás Ó Murchú, Brian Ó Domhnaill, Denis O'Donovan, Fiona O'Malley, Ned O'Sullivan, Ann Ormonde, Jim Walsh, Mary White)

Tellers: Tá, Senators Maurice Cummins and John Paul Phelan; Níl, Senators Camillus Glynn and Labhrás Ó Murchú.

Amendment declared lost.

Order of Business agreed to.