Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)

I concur with Senator Alex White's call for a debate on the co-operation between University College Dublin and Trinity College. It is imperative we get benefit from the moneys being invested in research and development. A debate in this House would be timely in order to focus on what is an important, a constructive and, I hope, a beneficial development.

Will the Leader arrange a debate at an early stage on the role and quality or otherwise of our media, their influence on society and their responsibilities? Senator Norris and I engaged strongly on the Defamation Bill. I am minded to call for such a debate because this morning The Irish Times had two lead articles, one of which concerned the forthcoming budget and comments in that regard and the other concerned the very regrettable school shooting in Albertville, Germany. Both articles contained substantive stories. The Irish Examiner dealt with yesterday's report to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service by the Criminal Assets Bureau on mortgage scams, which are very prevalent in the United States. Another lead article on the front page dealt with the school shooting in Germany. The lead story in the Irish Independent concerned a €3,000 hike for Deputies. It dealt with the unfortunate shooting in Germany in a single column on the right-hand side of that page.

I was surprised that one of the best selling broadsheets would deal in such a trivial manner with increments to Members of the Oireachtas. The other evening I listened to the editor of the Irish Independent on a talk show and he came across as responsible in what he said. I am, therefore, of the view that this is not a deliberate attempt to inflame public opinion or to cause civil unrest, but I have concerns. Senator O'Toole put it very eloquently last night when he said that the first casualty in a recession is democracy. Unfortunately, there were very regrettable examples of that in the last century. It is an important issue that I would like addressed.

Increments are a public service issue and should be dealt with in that context. Elected Members of the Oireachtas should not be singled out.

I refer to the comments of Senator Phelan, with which I concur, on the call for a debate on proposals any party brings forward on reforming the Oireachtas. Reducing the number of Ministers of State would have to be done against the background of the role they play and the responsibilities they have. It is in that context the matter should be decided, rather than having a numerical debate. It should be a qualitative rather than a quantitative debate.

Regarding the number of committees and a reduction in their number, which is part of that proposal, I am a member of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. There was a proposal to look at reducing the number of committees by eight or ten — I cannot remember which. The saving was approximately €2 million, two thirds of which were staff costs which could not be reduced. The magnitude of our economic and fiscal difficulties are such that if we start trivialising them by talking about saving €100 here or €200 there purely in a pejorative and prejudiced way——