Seanad debates
Thursday, 27 November 2008
Order of Business
10:30 am
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re Council framework decision on combating terrorism, back from committee, to be taken without debate; and No. 2, Cluster Munitions and Anti-Personnel Mines Bill 2008, Committee and Remaining Stages. It is proposed that No. 1 shall be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and that No. 2 shall be taken at the conclusion of No. 1.
Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader request that either the Taoiseach or the Minister for Foreign Affairs make a statement in the House before the former travels to Brussels to present his proposals for a second referendum on the Lisbon treaty? A statement on this matter should not be made in Europe until the Taoiseach or the Minister come before the House. Since the first referendum on the Lisbon treaty, there have been massive cuts in public services and the budget, which was introduced in October, is extremely anti-consumer in nature. If there is another referendum on the Lisbon treaty next year, a general election should take place at the same time, otherwise that referendum will be guaranteed to fail.
Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader invite the Minister for Finance to come before the House? The Minister has not appeared in this Chamber in quite some time. The position in respect of the economy, particularly with regard to the banks, is changing daily. There is a need for a serious debate on this matter. There is a short article in today's Irish Independent which highlights the position of the Harvey Norman chain, which has stores across the globe. It is pointed out in the article that even though the position globally is difficult, Harvey Norman's retail business in Ireland is in a disastrous state. This is an indication that matters in this country are possibly worse than elsewhere. There is a need for a debate on this matter because things are changing and becoming worse on a daily basis.
I reiterate a call I made during last evening's Second Stage debate on the Stem-Cell Research (Protection of Human Embryos) Bill 2008 that an equivalent debate should take place in respect of the lack of legislation relating to in vitro fertilisation. As I said last night, this is putting the lives of women and children at risk and we need to do something about that immediately.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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On the constant requests to the Leader for a debate on economic affairs and finance, whereas it makes no difference to me and other Dublin-based Senators that the Seanad will meet on a Friday, it is somewhat unfair to other Members who have to travel here and who may have made other arrangements. It is an extraordinary coincidence that the Friday selected happens to coincide with the Fianna Fáil annual dinner.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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That has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I find that extraordinarily convenient.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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It is not a cheap political point, it——
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Toole, without interruption, please.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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——is an important point to make on that issue.
My colleague, Senator Ross, made some important points during the week in regard to FÁS, many of which have been followed up. I hope that debate will not be trivialised by people calling for the resignation of a Minister on the basis of her having had her hair washed. To do so trivialises a serious debate. It is outrageous that it should be reduced to that.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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There are serious issues to be dealt with and they will be dealt with by the Committee of Public Accounts. This is the level at which such matters should be dealt with.
The issue of recapitalisation of the banks has arisen once again as individual private equity firms seek to invest in the banks. I again urge that the Government approach this cautiously. The Government, however it has managed to do so, has got it right to date in the sense that it did not recapitalise the banks a couple of weeks ago as did the US and UK. What happened is that the money they provided simply went into a hole in the ground as banks simply used it to build up their own capitalisation and Tier 1 requirements. We now find that while at least one Irish bank, Irish Life and Permanent, exceeds the Tier 1 asset capitalisation being sought by European banks, this appears to be making no difference.
When the Minister for Finance comes into the House I would like him to tell us how will we get the money from Government into small business and enterprises around the country. What we are missing is ICC and ACC, which in times past would have made this kind of money available, which is an important point. Another issue that arises is sub-prime lending which has a bad name as a result of what happened in the US. It is important to remember that we have a thriving and positive sub-prime lending institution in the form of the credit unions. Credit unions are involved in sub-prime lending to people who often cannot get funds from the main institutions and they do so in a regulated and protective manner. It is a process through which money can flow to ordinary people in a positive way. It is not sub-prime lending that is wrong. Credit unions maintain their loans right the way through and do not sell them off again. The Government should consider possible other ways of getting money into the business sector and to people who need credit other than simply handing the matter to the large banks.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Before I call the next speaker, I welcome to the Distinguished Visitors Gallery the Governor of Montana, Mr. Brian Schweitzer. On my own behalf, and on behalf of my colleagues in Seanad Éireann, I extend a very warm welcome to you and wish you well during your visit.
Alex White (Labour)
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I am glad we will have a debate on the economy next week regardless of what day it will take place or the other events with which it might coincide. It is important we are having that debate next week having called for it so often.
I was struck by the following curious point in regard to the reports today about the banks. A new group of investors has offered the Minister for Finance a solution to the problem. Last week, another group of opportunists, investors with international connections, offered a solution to the Minister for Finance. A picture comes to mind of the Minister for Finance sitting in his office, tapping his fingers on the desk almost waiting for people to come to him with suggestions. Surely, it should be the Minister who makes such bold moves. I do not agree with Senator O'Toole that there is not a requirement for recapitalisation of the banks. Manifestly, there is such a requirement. There needs to be a debate on how it should be brought about and on the controls that should be put in place by Government in that regard.
I would like to hear from the Minister for Finance what the Government proposes to do other than waiting for others to come to them with suggestions. This seems to be the manner in which Government is being run in regard to these serious issues. In that vein, will the Leader arrange for the Taoiseach to come to this House and to be involved in the debate on the current position and where we are going? The Taoiseach, when Minister for Finance, made a reasonably thoughtful speech a year ago at the Indecon conference.
Alex White (Labour)
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I wonder if he would take out that speech, dust it down and read it again to see what it is he would propose by way of addressing the palpable sense of not alone uncertainty but real fear, which is increasing by the day and almost by the hour, across the community. Everybody is seeking a solution to the problem. We accept the Government cannot solve every problem. However, we are looking to it for some measure of inspiration and hope and for a plan, but we are not seeing anything of that nature. The budget was botched and there is a failure to face up to many of the problems that led us to where we are now. One cannot work out one's future course until one is clear about how one arrived at where one is. We must face up to rather than dwell on the fundamental mistakes of recent years.
The extraordinary, treacherous and reckless priming of the property sector happened under the watch of this Government and this must be faced up to. Decentralisation — it appears it will be reversed in the public service reform document — was a serious mistake and——
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator White can discuss that matter during the debate.
Alex White (Labour)
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——a shocking proposal, one that ought never have been brought forward. We are now seeing it being at least partly reversed in the new proposals on efficiency in the public service. I ask that the Leader give serious consideration to inviting the Taoiseach to the House for the debate. I remind Members that the collapse in State revenue in this country was well under way before the international banking crisis emerged.
Alex White (Labour)
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That is a fact, not an opinion. We must face up to these facts and have a proper debate on them. I respectfully suggest that this forum is a good place to have that debate, a somewhat more relaxed and thoughtful debate than is possible in the other House. I ask that the Leader arrange such a debate as soon as possible.
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
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I welcome that we will have a debate on public sector reform. I would like to request an additional debate on an issue linked to that agenda, namely, the existence of State agencies and public bodies in this country. The budget process has put in train a rationalisation plan for many of them and contains proposals in regard to shared secretariats for others. Yesterday's document indicates that further rationalisations of a number of bodies and their purpose need to be undertaken.
We need, as part of that debate, to discuss the process of public appointments and the role the Oireachtas can and should play in such a process. It has been proposed in the past that this House should have a direct role in terms of assessing people nominated to chair many public and State bodies. If such a reform were to come about, it would give this House more relevance and ensure there is in place a process whereby people charged with chairing such bodies must indicate, prior to taking up their appointments, their vision for the agencies they seek to operate.
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
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If the House is prepared to provide time for such a debate and to pursue such a role for itself, it could go a long way towards restoring some of the public confidence lost by recent revelations.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I will now call on the two Members who did not get an opportunity to raise their matters yesterday and indicated earlier their wish to put them to the Leader today.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I join with other speakers in asking the Leader to facilitate a debate on public service reform. Yesterday, an announcement was made in regard to a fifth review in five years of the public service. We are all aware of waste, duplication and inefficiencies in this regard and of bad leadership by Government. I ask that the Leader provide time for such a debate as a matter of urgency.
I would like also if the Leader could invite the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to the House. I disagree with Senator O'Toole's point in regard to FÁS which has been discredited, as has senior management at FÁS. We need a debate on the role of FÁS because the good work being done on the ground in the public interest is being undermined by bad management. Would any Member of this House travel abroad at the taxpayers' expense and spend €410 on pampering ourselves? We would not and we need to get real.
David Norris (Independent)
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Most of us do not have any hair left.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We can discuss that in the debate if the Leader agrees to it.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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At a time of recession it shows how arrogant and out of touch the Government has become if it believes it is chicken-feed. It is wrong and the Leader should not defend it.
Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I support Senator Twomey's call for a debate on legislation to provide a regulatory framework for assisted human reproduction and in particular in vitro fertilisation, which is long overdue. A former Member of this House, Dr. Mary Henry, was very active in trying to get the matter placed on the Government agenda. I call on the Leader to have that debate as a matter of urgency.
I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Health and Children to the House to discuss a particular issue regarding the waste of public moneys. As we are debating reform of the public service and issues of waste in the public finance, one report slipped somewhat under the radar last week. That was a report by the Dáil's Committee of Public Accounts, which was highlighted in an article by Fintan O'Toole in Tuesday's edition of The Irish Times. That committee reported on an outrageous waste of public money in the health service. As one of its key points, the report highlighted the direct subsidy that goes from the public health system to the private health insurance market. In 2006 almost 25% of public hospital beds were occupied by private patients, but the HSE recovered just 7% of the cost of running hospitals from the insurance companies, showing a marked subsidy from the public purse for the private insurance sector.
A point that stood out as scandalous and that needs to be addressed by the Minister in the House is the report's exposure of the State paying publicly contracted consultants private fees to treat their public patients, in some cases even in public hospitals. I am talking about the National Treatment Purchase Fund. I did not understand that fund was designed to enable the payment of consultants working in Irish hospitals to treat patients who were already on their own public waiting lists and enabling the patients to jump the queue in that way. Staggeringly the National Treatment Purchase Fund paid for 1,774 patients who were treated in public hospitals. This should be a matter of major concern to all of us on both sides of this House at a time when the public purse is so straitened. When we are all looking at ways to make savings, this is an obvious way to do so.
The health service has been scandalously badly run. We have seen dreadful things like the cancellation of the roll-out of the cervical cancer vaccination scheme, while at the same time there is this ongoing wastage which should be cured and at the very least debated in this House. I call on the Leader to bring in the Minister for Health and Children to answer questions.
Ivor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with the call for a debate on the economy and fiscal policy. However, I differ somewhat from Senator Alex White who seems to be very negative in his approach. Ireland has overcome tremendous economic challenges in the past few years. While we certainly face new difficulties, we should not lose sight of what we have achieved, including the great increases in the State pension for older people and in child allowance, the great reduction in the tax burden, the fabulous addressing of the national debt, the 2 million people now at work and the totally unrecognisable change in our infrastructure.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We can discuss those matters in the debate the Senator is seeking.
Ivor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Alex White should be somewhat balanced and recognise that under the Fianna Fáil-led administrations great strides have been made.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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If the Leader agrees to a debate we can discuss those matters.
Ivor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader to advise if an audit has been or will be carried out on matters that impact on job creation or sustainable employment, given the grave change in our economic circumstances. We introduced numerous amounts of legislation and regulations in the good times. We planned various developments, which were all done in circumstances that prevailed and at the time were in the best possible wider public interest. Our economy is experiencing dramatic change and faces great challenges in the months ahead. Given our present circumstances, we need to reposition ourselves and evaluate if there are mitigating issues, legislation, regulations or developments that may not be helpful to job creation or sustainable employment. All these issues may need re-evaluation. This warrants reappraisal and discussion with all stakeholders to ensure the required supports and no mitigation factors are in place for job creation and sustainable employment at this time.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We can discuss those matters in the debate if the Leader agrees to it.
Ivor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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I am simply asking for a logical approach to present circumstances and what we can now accommodate.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The proper recapitalisation of the banks is critical to the future success of the economy, as has been stated by two other Senators this morning. The suggestion made public last night by the Irish Association of Investment Managers that the recapitalisation of the banks should be through funds managed by their own subsidiaries smacks of a classic conflict and the Minister would need to be very cautious in this regard. Obviously if possible we would all prefer that funds come from investments within Ireland rather than from foreign equity houses or venture capitalists — we all know how they would proceed. No doubt the Government is weighing up how best to proceed. A very important question arises. How would Ms Fitzgerald, the former chief executive of the Irish Association of Investment Managers, who now represents consumers' interests, feel about it?
Regarding the abuses that have been highlighted in FÁS, there is concern that similar malpractices exist in other State agencies. A colleague was required to pay €1,000 to access the information that exposed these abuses. If there is to be transparency, which was the original purpose of the Freedom of Information Act, how can we get to a situation where that Act can serve its true purpose?
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I support the calls for a debate on public service reform and the banking situation. The Taoiseach and the Government have received poor press in recent months because of the very serious change in the economy, which is a global phenomenon. I welcome yesterday's publication of the public service reform report, which was launched by the Taoiseach. He has been exceptionally consistent on the issue and has been measured in what he has said. He has been very fair and balanced to ensure that people who work in the public service have entitlements and rights that must be recognised. At the same time he is determined that we get change, which most public servants who are operating well want to see happen.
I welcome in particular the fact that the guarantee of a job for life in the public service will be reviewed. I always felt that was a fundamental flaw in the system. I welcome the fact that efficiencies in productivity and the reform programme will not be accompanied by compensation to public servants. People who have jobs now should value them and should be prepared to be flexible. Given time, I believe that the Taoiseach will show he merits the great confidence that we and everybody out there have in him. The Indecon report to which Senator Alex White referred was one of the finest templates of the future economic direction of the public service.
I compliment a man who has been much criticised this week, the former director general of FÁS, Mr. Rody Molloy. He was an exceptionally good director general of that organisation.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We cannot have a discussion on that issue now.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The only point I want to make is that he has focused on a culture of profligacy and it is not only in FÁS but right across the public service. That has done the State some service. I agree with Senator O'Toole that trivialising the issue down to a few hundred dollars for one service or another is bringing the public service into disrepute. We need to focus on the broader picture and ensure that we eradicate the waste that is happening right across the public service and inject efficiencies into the system. It is hoped that is what the public service reform initiative will achieve for us.
11:00 am
David Norris (Independent)
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I would like to take up one of the points that was made by my colleagues, Senators O'Toole and Walsh, about FÁS. It would be good to have a debate on this issue. My colleagues, particularly Senator Ross, have called for this for some time and I add my voice to theirs in seeking that.
There is a significant and legitimate role for investigative journalism. It can often do things that the Houses of the Oireachtas have difficulty doing. However, one needs to be very careful when one unleashes this kind of negative energy because it is extremely difficult to control it subsequently. When it hits the lowest levels like The Sun newspaper or Mr. Rupert Murdoch and we have a headline "Wash and Go", it is astonishing that we should be expected to count the nail clippings in a Florida hair salon while the economy is going down the drain. We are told that a significant British investor has said that it is a catastrophe to invest in Ireland. His radio advertisements were the catastrophe. This hectoring, raucous, ghastly, frightfully bulldog British voice would put anybody off his product.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should put a question to the Leader.
David Norris (Independent)
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I would like to know when we can have such a debate. It is urgent that we should have it and I will tell the House why. A number of errors have been spread and when mud starts flying it can stick to people who do not deserve it. Senator Boyle behaved in a very dignified way when he was asked on radio, inaccurately, to defend a statement from the Green Party supporting Mr. Molloy. No statement had been issued. Senator Boyle said he could not comment on it because he did not know about it. That is one such example.
Another example of this occurred this morning when Deputy Leo Varadkar several times referred to and appeared to call for the resignation of the Minister, Deputy Hanafin. I do not believe that was corrected. Such inaccuracies are being spread all over the place.
I heard Senator Ross explaining that one of the dates was incorrect. People had asked for the resignation of the Minister, Deputy Harney, on the grounds of an incorrect date published in a newspaper. I have great differences with that Minister, political differences, ideological differences, but she is a very energetic Minister. She is 100% committed. I happen to think she is wrong, but in terms of work and productivity, nobody has done more.
We know Nixon lost an election because of his appearance, and appearance can be important. If I may lighten this debate slightly, the Government could do with being beautified and I will help to pay for it if that is necessary.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I do not believe that is relevant to the Order of Business.
David Norris (Independent)
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It is important that we get these things right.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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It is not a beauty salon that we have in this Chamber.
David Norris (Independent)
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We should have a debate on the specific issue of the space programme. Other cheap shots were made about spacers, Disneyland and the like, but that is rubbish. One of the problems with this country is that we are not at the forefront of science. One of the initiatives Mr. Molloy was trying to progress was to push Ireland forward in that area at Cape Canaveral. We have been involved in space research. Experiments have been undertaken with flights into space from Cape Canaveral. I am involved in a project with Leo Enright and Martin Keane, a businessman, to get Irish students into the International Space University. That is where we need to get them.
David Norris (Independent)
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I suggest that Members read the article by Mr. John Walsh in the Irish Independent about the visit there, the significance and importance of it and the fact that he believes that a good job was done. I will end with this point.
David Norris (Independent)
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I will come down very much to earth. What have the consequences of this been? Let us honestly face them. The consequences have been that the work of the Committee of Public Accounts has been interrupted. Mr. Molloy will not now appear before it and he cannot now be questioned. It is not a question of €400 for nail varnish and a few hairdos, he will get from the State straight away approximately €500,000 in severance pay, he will receive a pension and we will have to hire somebody else. This is a man about whom questions have been raised, but he has had very strong support for his professionalism. At the end of the day, this story that was stirred up by The Sun has cost the taxpayer a hell of a lot of money, but it is easy to get people who have lost jobs and people who failed to get placements on FÁS programmes stirred up, but it is a dangerous process.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has made his point. I call Senator Keaveney.
Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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It is hard to follow Senator Norris, but I will try to do so. I want to raise the serious issue of violence against women and domestic violence. I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on that. This issue was alluded to earlier this week and I want to continue to notify Members of the 16-day international campaign opposing violence against women. The reason it is important is that the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre received 10,155 counselling calls in 2007, 83% of which were from women. Trained volunteers from that organisation attended the sexual assault treatment unit with 320 victims in 2007. Some 42% of women in Ireland — more than four in ten — have experienced some form of sexual abuse or assault and only 7% of sexual violence reported to the rape crisis centres throughout Ireland has been committed by total strangers.
This is a pertinent issue. It is not one that relates to a particular year or time, it has happened since time immemorial. It is not an issue that is gender specific in that we should not expect one or other gender to raise this issue. It is an issue that we as a House of the Oireachtas should be keen to debate and examine ways in which we can encourage people not to stand for verbal, psychology, sexual or any other form of abuse. Sometimes people relate abuse solely to sexual abuse, but we should also debate bullying and other such activities that happen to people in every walk of life. As I said, four in every ten women suffer sexual abuse or sexual assault.
I would like to pursue the issue of the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF, which Senator Bacik raised. It is very important that we encourage the use of the NTPF. It is an effective and good way of ensuring that people who need it receive treatment. There needs to be an investigation into the situation where some consultants have very long waiting lists while others do not. Those with the long waiting lists are sometimes the ones who create the greatest need for the NTPF. Given that the NTPF operates separately from the Minister's Department, we would need the CEO of the NTPF to address us here. Issues have arisen as a result of the actions of the NTPF to try to encourage shorter waiting times in hospitals. By its actions it is preventing people from availing of the NTPF. Such a debate is required. I stand over the role of the NTPF and know from personal experience in my family that it has been very successful. It is an important way of ensuring patients who badly need it receive treatment. I refer to patients who might be stymied by a system that is not working properly in some cases, although it is working well in others.
Alan Kelly (Labour)
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I return to the subject matter of the public service, about which I spoke yesterday in light of the Government's announcement. I will not repeat everything I said, but yesterday's announcement was much ado about nothing. Another report will be commissioned and, no matter what language is used or what thesaurus is brought out to say the same thing in a different way, this will be the fifth report in a few years. We have not seen any ingenuity from the Government on this issue. I repeat one point I made yesterday, namely, that the OECD report on our public service stated that we have one of the smallest, if not the smallest, public services of any country in Europe. If the Government is going to slash and burn, we must be careful that it does not do so in the case of any front-line services. That might have to be masked by the Government to achieve what it is setting out to achieve. I and my party will oppose that at all costs.
A number of statements in the report are of concern. They indicate the double standards of the Government and a row back on the policy it has pursued in recent years. There are statements to the effect that the recentralisation of services will be considered. That is from a Government that has a failed policy on decentralisation, yet now it is aiming to recentralise services in certain parts of the country, especially Dublin. That is a complete contradiction of its position in the past.
I have three suggestions on which the Government can concentrate in the process it is undertaking until next June. It should start with looking at the composition of State boards and the way they have been appointed. I agree with the esteemed Deputy Leader, from the Green Party, who stated previously that this matter needs to be examined. He is in government and should look into the matter and bring about reform. The management of certain sectors of the public service needs to be examined, as we have seen recently.
I asked the Leader at least once if not twice on the Order of Business and in various debates to have an audit carried out on the PMDS system in the public service, especially on senior management and from the top down. The system operates on a bottom-up basis and I am not convinced chief executives and senior management across the board are carrying it out to the degree intended. From my evidence, it has not been working.
We have seen an example of how the Government has taken a knife to freedom of information in recent weeks. The success of my colleague, Senator Ross, in getting the information on FÁS is commendable. One could argue that he should get his money back. If the Government and this House had not taken a knife to the Freedom of Information Act, we would not have the excessive costs on which everybody is commenting——
Alan Kelly (Labour)
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——and we would not have the scenario where everybody is refusing or afraid to get information under the freedom of information legislation because the costs are so excessive. That is to the detriment of democracy and to information.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader to arrange for an early debate, possibly next week, on the draft report that is being presented to the Joint Committee on European Affairs this morning, which is currently being discussed. I refer to the report of the sub-committee chaired by our esteemed colleague, Senator Donohoe, on Ireland's future in the European Union. It is important that the House has an opportunity to discuss the report in detail and possibly to make a recommendation to the Taoiseach before he meets the heads of state in Brussels in December.
Last week the Cathaoirleach was kind enough to allow me to raise a matter on the Adjournment of the House on the important issue of ambulance services at Roscommon County Hospital that serves County Roscommon. Will the Leader of the House arrange for the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, to come to the House to give an explanation of why Roscommon County Hospital has not had 24/7 ambulance cover?
I raised the matter on 20 November and on that day a lady collapsed in Roscommon town. It took 40 minutes for an ambulance to come from Boyle, even though the hospital is within four minutes of the main street in Roscommon. The doctor said if someone was suffering from a massive haemorrhage or there was a major accident in the Roscommon town area we could have a really worrying situation on our hands. I am concerned at the lack of on-call ambulance cover for Roscommon town on a recent weekend between the hours of 5 p.m. and 8 a.m. I rang Mr. Frank McClintock of the HSE this morning——
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I do not want the Senator to name any officials please.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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——and I am still awaiting a response from him. I will not accept the situation.
Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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That is the policy of Senator Leyden's party.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senator Leyden should raise the matter with the Minister.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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——but this House. The Cathaoirleach was a member of a health board.
Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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The position is the same in Athlone.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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——I will not accept a situation where Roscommon County Hospital does not have ambulance cover on a 24/7 basis.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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That is unacceptable. I want the Minister to come to the House to account for her stewardship of management of the health service.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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It is up to the Leader to seek the attendance of the Minister and that will depend on the Leader.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I am not satisfied with the HSE. The responsibility must rest on the Minister's desk.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I want her to come to the House to account for the management of the HSE and in particular the despicable and dangerous situation in Roscommon where we do not have a guaranteed ambulance service 24 hours a day. That is unacceptable. It is the job of the Government side of the House to highlight those issues because the other side of the House is sometimes reluctant to raise issues.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Leyden should confine himself to matters relevant to the Order of Business.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Let us wait until Fianna Fáil gets into government and it will sort all that out.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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It is my understanding that the head of the HSE and the Minister were before a joint committee yesterday or today.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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It is always good when a governor from the United States comes to the House and I welcome the Governor of Montana today. Is there any indication of when the Governor of Alaska might visit the House?
Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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She would be at home with Fianna Fáil.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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If Sarah Palin does visit it might be appropriate that it would be when we have the debate on hand gun legislation, which I believe the Minister will put before the Oireachtas.
We have had an initiative from the Irish-led Mallabraca consortium to recapitalise Irish banks, which lacked credibility and does not appear to be going anywhere. There is a headline in The Irish Times today, "New plan to recapitalise Irish banks offered to Lenihan", by the Irish Association of Investment Managers, which seems to have some rationale. The real question is what is the Minister's view and what is his plan or strategy on the current crisis in the banking system? He should inform this House — perhaps he will gain some insights into how he might move forward were the matter to be addressed in this House and the Lower House. It is one of the most important issues in the economy and the Government cannot resolve the current economic crisis until it first resolves the banking crisis.
Regarding the report of the sub-committee and the information that the constitutional court in the Czech Republic has ruled that the Lisbon treaty is compatible with the constitution, all the indications are that we will have a Lisbon II referendum in this country at some future date. That is an issue that should be the subject of debate in this House before the December European Council.
Even if we have a re-run of the referendum on the Lisbon treaty there is a time delay and there is a crucial issue in regard to the European Parliament elections. There is an opportunity at the December European Council to resolve those institutional issues that are part of the Lisbon treaty and to have a mini-intergovernmental conference side by side with the European Council in December, which would allow all member states, including Ireland, to ratify that part of the treaty and allow the European Parliament elections to take place on the basis of the Lisbon provisions. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs to inform the House of the Government's plans in that regard.
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I look forward to a debate on the economy. I agree with Senator Regan that the important aspect is how we recapitalise. That is the core of the discussion. I am pleased the Minister is not coming forward with ideas. I know he is working hard behind the scenes and he is right not to come out until he has thoroughly investigated the way forward. We would want him to do it because this is the core aspect of the regeneration of the economy.
Like Senator Ross, for years I have been calling for a debate on FÁS. I recently asked for a debate on how it was being run in the new economic climate. I would welcome a debate on the issue, as well as on how the relevant stakeholders link up with the unemployed. From my knowledge of the education system, I have always considered they were not doing their work properly in this regard. I would welcome a new vision for FÁS.
I am very disappointed that the media should pick on the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, and trivialise her appointment with a hairdresser. When one considers her role since she first became a Minister, one realises that the call for the resignation of such a fine person is pathetic.
This weekend Fianna Fáil councillors are meeting the Taoiseach and Ministers because they believe there was a lack of consultation. This concerns all of us.
Alex White (Labour)
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The Labour Party conference is also on. Can I tell the Members about it?
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I want the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government——
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Chair has ruled. We are not publicising in the House meetings of any party.
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I only refer to it to substantiate my point, that we want the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to outline his role and how he handles consultation with councillors. I would like to see a leader representative for all local authorities who would represent councillors in their role. Recently Mayo County Council representatives appeared before the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to discuss their development plan. Given the downturn in the economy, the Minister has reasons for using directives to change such plans. This issue should be discussed in the House.
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I made my original point to substantiate my view that we need more consultation.
Shane Ross (Independent)
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I agree with Senators Ormonde, O'Toole, Norris and others. I appeal to the Fine Gael Party not to trivialise the issue of FÁS for naked political advantage and turn a very small matter into a very large one.
Shane Ross (Independent)
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That is not the object of the exercise. What is at issue is rampant, endemic and systemic expenditure in FÁS. To focus on a little incident of the kind referred to would be absurd. Fine Gael was doing very well in concentrating on the board for a long time and that is where it should continue to concentrate. It is unfortunate that the board issued a statement last night indicating that while it was concerned, it would not say anything, apparently in deference to the Committee of Public Accounts. Since when did the board of FÁS develop a sense of deference to the Committee of Public Accounts? I do not know. The stance of the board is totally inadequate and the committee should have the board members appear before it to answer questions on why they allowed people in FÁS to indulge in this extraordinary expenditure. I ask the Fine Gael Party to continue along this line if it really wants to address the issue, rather than concentrating on a matter that is peripheral.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should address the Leader, not the Fine Gael Party.
Shane Ross (Independent)
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I have a question for the Leader. Will he allow the House to address the issue of bank recapitalisation which was raised by Senators Regan and Coghlan? I reiterate Senator Coghlan's point that there is a real danger associated with this form of investment. We are asking the banks to invest in one other. As far as I can see, we are asking for self-investment. We are asking Bank of Ireland to invest in Bank of Ireland and AIB to invest in AIB. We are also asking them to invest in each other. One of the problems with the Irish banking system has always been this type of incestuous investment, whereby the banks invest in one another, thereby strengthening the cartel. On doing so, the banks' representatives can go to one another's annual general meetings and vote for one another. The small shareholder does not get a look in. The proposal will further this trend. If Bank of Ireland or any of the other banks is allowed to invest in itself or another bank money that is not its own but which it manages, its position will become conflicted. We will have a serious problem down the line and cartels galore, rather than the opposite, as desired. I urge the Leader to invite the Minister for Finance to come to the House to listen to this argument. The proposal is very dangerous.
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I join other speakers who spoke about the recapitalisation of the banks. I am conscious of the fact that Bank of Ireland has a very successful bond issue. The triple A rating granted to that issue stemmed from the fact that the Government had given the bank a guarantee. The banks are clear that they do not require recapitalisation but the fact that there is no liquidity in the market and that they have opted for the basal rate in having reserves higher than they had before the market difficulties means that they are taking money out of the system. This should be examined.
Can the Minister of State responsible for European affairs be invited to the House, particularly given that a second referendum on the Lisbon treaty may be held in the new year? We should consider obtaining declarations from the European Union. Such declarations were lacking during the first campaign and, while they would not allay the fears of all the electorate, they would allay the fears of some of those who decided they could not vote in favour of the treaty. The declarations are necessary and would make a significant difference to the campaign and people's attitudes. I refer, in particular, to strongly held Irish beliefs regarding certain social issues such as abortion. It is feared measures in respect of these issues might be imposed on us, although the European Union has consistently stated this will not occur. The Union should make a declaration stating it will not impose such measures, including in respect of military neutrality. It would be of significant benefit if this message were sent to the Minister of State.
Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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This morning I did not intend to raise the issue of expenditure because I did not believe in politicising expenditure on anybody's make-up or hairdo but I feel moved to speak about it now. I resent the remarks of Senators Norris, Ross, Ormonde and O'Toole to the effect that this is a trivial issue. How could the spending of public money on oneself ever be regarded as right? I feel very strongly about the use of The K Club for meetings of FÁS——
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should ask a question to the Leader.
Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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——and a €900 tip for the Merrion Hotel. The comments made and views expressed by one of my colleagues are not representative of those of the Fine Gael Party as a whole. The Minister for Health and Children was wrong to spend public funds on her make-up. It is an issue of what is right and wrong and of spending one's own money. How much did the former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, spend on his make-up every week? Was it €15,000?
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator have questions for the Leader? Is she seeking a debate on the matter?
Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ross did not speak to the Leader.
Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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I feel very strongly that this is not a trivial issue but an issue of what is right and wrong.
With the Cathaoirleach's indulgence, let me raise the issue of the poor unfortunate sheep farmers who were forgotten by the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Brendan Smith, in Brussels. I saw them in the freezing cold last night. It is a scandal and a shame that they had to protest by having their sheep on Kildare Street last night. Will the Leader use his good offices and appeal to the Minister not to come home from Brussels without negotiating a deal, whereby the funds unused under Article 68 may be used to pay and help sheep farmers? They have been hit through the abolition of installation aid and the early retirement scheme in the budget and must also pay the 1% levy.
I wish to say something positive by commending the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Smith, on negotiating the 2% milk quota.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Unfortunately, two Members have lost out because people overran their time.
David Norris (Independent)
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This is a matter of being adept at timing.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senators Twomey and O'Toole, Senator Alex White, Senators Callely, Coughlan, Regan and Hanafin all expressed a wish to have a debate on the Lisbon treaty and matters pertaining to it before it is discussed in Brussels. Senator Twomey asked whether it was possible to have the Taoiseach present. I shall ask. I already spoke with the Taoiseach about the House having a debate on Northern Ireland. It is customary that the Taoiseach comes to the House when we discuss this matter because Northern Ireland is his special responsibility within Government. That has been the practice through the years and that request was made already. I will endeavour to have the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Martin, present before his visit to Brussels to hear the views of Members of this House. However, this will depend on my finding time, given all the legislation I have been asked to process before Christmas.
The debate on finance will take place on Friday of next week. The banking issue and all related matters can be taken in that debate. Senator Alex White, leader of the Labour Party in the Seanad, said this morning that the public are looking for hope and inspiration. That is the most important factor at present. Confidence is a significant issue, no matter what level of business one practises. If there is no confidence to face the future, expansion and progress are stifled.
Senator O'Toole spoke about the particular difficulty of the present time and I said as much on the Order of Business a few weeks ago. In the 1970s and 1980s when we had a great downturn in the economy, small companies, family businesses and small and medium-sized enterprises, SMEs, were struggling. They then had the Government agency, the ICC or ACC to go to but that is not the case this time. A struggling company may have been in business for three years, five, ten or 20 years, employing 50, 100, 200 or 300 people. If any part of those operations is struggling now, the entrepreneur is not received in a friendly fashion by the banks. The Government has a serious decision to make. What will the Government do for struggling companies that have a track record in giving employment? That is the question that faces the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance. This House has a major role to play by highlighting issues and Senators can do this when they make their contributions on Friday next week. I shall ask the Minister for Finance for a response next week or at the earliest possible opportune time. Now may not be the right time.
Many thousands of jobs are at stake. Small and medium-sized businesses must receive some assistance, whatever transpires in the banking situation, no matter who refinances it and what the related internal issues are. These are all fine but 40% of jobs in Ireland are in small and medium-sized businesses. We all know this. These are all-Irish concerns that have been kept going for generations by families who should get a gold medal for having come through the past 30 to 50 years. I have often said this. We have an obligation and a duty with regard to a business that has a track record of giving employment to groups of 20 or more people over the past three to seven years . Senator Ross knows this better than anybody.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is not listening. Let us be honest. When the Leader or anybody else is speaking, I do not want any Member moving around or coming up to my desk. If they wish to send up a note, they can send up their Whips.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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We have a significant obligation and a duty — we being the Government and Members of both Houses — to ensure that, whatever happens in the next six months, we help those who create employment and continue to do so. We must assist those who would be in a position, if they were to get small allocations of funding or help of any description, to keep all present jobs going. Over the next five or six months it will be difficult to create new jobs in any country, from the biggest to the smallest.
I ask influential Members and responsible members of the press who are also Members of this House to take up this challenge in their columns on Sunday, this week and next week. They have been hugely successful in the past and they come from both sides of the House. Responsible people, public representatives and journalists must take up the cudgels and ask the banks what they intend to do for small and medium-sized businesses. They must ask also what the Government will do.
Senators Boyle, Buttimer, Walsh and Kelly expressed their views on reform of the public service. Yesterday in Dublin Castle, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance launched the task force on the public service. We all know the task force will set out a challenging agenda in respect of change in the public service. It recommends an integrated package of initiatives to be implemented over the next three years, a framework that focuses on achieving and improving performances by organisations and individuals within the public service, and on creating flexibility and deployment of people, assets and other resources. I could go on for some time. However, we wish the task force well. Eminent people, who have made a major contribution in their lifetime and still continue to do so, are making available their expertise and experience to assist the Government and the country at this difficult time. We wish to give a better service. I compliment the public service down through the years on what it has done for our country. Public servants have made an immeasurable contribution. The public service has been centre stage in the success of our country over the past ten or 15 years. We want to make it more efficient and help it in every way we can.
Senators Buttimer, Coughlan, Walsh, Norris, Ormonde and Ross all expressed their concerns about FÁS. The special debate on that organisation will take place next Tuesday afternoon. I have said often that, of all Ministers who come to the House, Deputy Mary Harney has been one of the most supportive over the years. She has made an immeasurable contribution and I concur with those Members who said this morning that she has been an excellent Minister in her lifetime and a shining example. I say this of one who started her career in the Oireachtas in Seanad Éireann in 1977.
Senators Twomey, Bacik and Keaveney called for a debate on IVF. I have no difficulty with this. The National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF, has paid for 1,774 patients in public hospitals. I understand there is a provision whereby patients who have not been treated within six months can avail of this facility under the NTPF. It is a breath of fresh air for those on the margins and on lower incomes who have had to wait for a long time. Senator Twomey comes from the medical profession and is a general practitioner of excellence. Poor people should not have to wait because they have no money and the NTPF is to be commended. I take the comments in the spirit with which they were made. They can be pursued during the debate on finance when the Minister of Finance, Deputy Lenihan, comes to the House. He has direct responsibility for the NTPF and its personnel.
Senator Keaveney called for a debate on violence against women. We should have a debate on violence against all persons. The Senator outlined the fact that thousands of cases occur at this time of year, coming up to Christmas. I will endeavour to have this debate take place. If time is not available we can consider the matter at an early session after Christmas.
Senator Leyden outlined the difficult position in which he finds himself in his home county, Roscommon, with regard to hospital services there and 24-hour cover, which is the least anybody should expect. I recommend that the Senator takes this as a matter on the Adjournment. He has now placed the issue on the record of the House and he should feel free to avail of this facility. However, to get a response and have the Minister present, placing a matter for the Adjournment, possibly next Tuesday, would better enhance what he is trying to achieve, especially given that we have a tight schedule and a large volume of legislation coming through.
On the possibility of having a debate on the findings of the draft report on Ireland's future in the European Union, for which Senator Donohoe has responsibility, the report should be discussed during the debate on the Lisbon treaty. I will endeavour to have the issues debated together.
Senator Ormonde raised matters pertaining to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the representation of councillors' views and decisions. As representatives of local councillors, Senators will do everything in their power to assist them in this difficult period, particularly as the Estimates process approaches. They face a serious challenge. I do not say this because Government parties are in control of, at most, four councils but because councillors of all political persuasions have a serious task in dealing with Estimates at this difficult time.
Senator McFadden raised the issue of sheep farming. I will convey her congratulations to the Minister on the 2% levy and all matters pertaining to it.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Leader only picked the good parts of the Senator's contribution.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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We had a lengthy debate on agriculture last week. The Minister and I noted and appreciated the contributions made by Senators.