Seanad debates

Wednesday, 22 October 2008

10:30 am

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, the Harbours (Amendment) Bill 2008 — Committee Stage, which will be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business; and No. 2 the Broadband Infrastructure Bill 2008, to be taken not earlier than 5 p.m. and to conclude not later than 7 p.m. The business of the House will be interrupted between 1.30 p.m. and 3 p.m.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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Yesterday, we saw an ungracious climbdown by the Government on the decision to withdraw medical cards from those aged over 70. Reflecting on the way the Government has handled this and the various U-turns it has made, what strikes me and what is most disturbing is the lack of ideology or guiding principles in the Government's decisions. No attempt has been made to protect the elderly, the weak and the vulnerable or to invest in and protect our children. It was quite the opposite in this budget and it highlights the lack of guiding principles behind the Government's decisions in the budget.

There are no guiding principles in the Government. We suspected this all along but it has come into clear relief since the budget. The Government lacks principle and ideology. Over the past two weeks, the Government has been acting like a liquidator, liquidating various assets without thinking about what it wants to protect, keep and value in society. This week, we saw it with the elderly. The concern is who it will be next week. How will the cuts play out? I want the Leader to comment on a number of matters.

I also want to highlight the area of children and education where we see 32 cutbacks will be made. These will hurt and challenge teachers and make it difficult to provide basic frontline teaching services to children. It is also going to affect back to education, literacy and adult educations services. There is a complete lack of ideology in our approach to children in the classroom.

There are several problems regarding yesterday's decision on the elderly and the medical card. It does not restore the principle of universality to free medical care. It does not provide any assurance that the ground rules will not be changed next year. In fact, the Minister for Health and Children has taken it upon herself that she can now change the criteria. She is changing the rule that one can hold on to the medical card for three years. Legislation is to be introduced in this area. When will it be examined in the Seanad? This will create a two-tier, even a four-tier, system for the elderly.

The Government has had little to say on the hassle and burden of means tests. Means tests around the world have proved to be extremely difficult to administer. It has been proven everywhere that the very people who need a service often end up not getting it because of the means test. Fiscal policy would have been much a better way to go.

It is disgraceful that many elderly people have been driven to protest outside the Dáil today. I want it debated today in the Seanad. I propose an amendment to the Order of Business that we take No. 24 item 25. If it cannot be taken today, at least we should have some opportunity to discuss in detail what the whole country is talking about and is in every newspaper.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Yesterday, I made the point that these issues are being discussed everywhere, including the Dáil, yet we seem to be silencing ourselves on them. It does not make any sense. Members on both sides of the House have views which they should be allowed articulate. I support the call from Senator Frances Fitzgerald that we need to discuss these issues and open the debate to allow Members say what they have to say. There is no point in people burying themselves in parliamentary party meetings. This is the place where points must be made. Even for the sake of the Government side, surely its Members have views they want to articulate and put on the record.

Serious difficulties are being faced by people. Last week, I called for the exclusion of the minimum wage bracket from the 1% income levy. Despite the fact that Members on the opposite side of the House did not agree with those of us on this side, I am glad at least somebody in the Government heard this call from various people. I welcome this important decision.

I do not believe the figure given yesterday that only 20,000 over-70s will be outside the medical card eligibility net. From checking the figures for retired public servants, without even checking those from the private sector, I am convinced the figure is way above 20,000. It must be remembered on retirement many people receive lump sums, gratuities and interest on those which all add up. The true figures need to be established.

Special educational needs assistants will be cut back. The Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act, welcomed by all sides of this House, will not be implemented and class sizes will increase. These affect ordinary people, whether they are elderly, in the education service or on low wages.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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The so-called higher paid, those pensioners who earn €35,000 a year, will now have to pay for a medical card. The Government should stop using that terminology, describing these people as higher paid. It is disgraceful and only adds to people's feelings on the matter. They are angered, traumatised and incredulous by what they see happening.

The Government needs to reassess where it is going with this budget or else reconsider its position. It must restore confidence in its ability to govern, which is under question. It needs to listen and deal with the issues and if necessary introduce a mini-budget to deal with the unimplementable issues. When the Director of Public Prosecutions says he is not sure he will be able to perform his duty in implementing justice, then we have a serious problem. It is not just Members on this side of the House who are concerned.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Alex WhiteAlex White (Labour)
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I second Senator Frances Fitzgerald's amendment to the Order of Business. We need to have a debate on the medical card for the over-70s issue today. Senator Joe O'Toole is correct that everyone in the country is talking about these issues while we seem to be the only body that is not, apart from the opportunity to raise it on the Order of Business. We should amend the Order of Business to allow a debate with the Minister for Health and Children on this issue today.

There is nothing short of chaos in the entire budgetary process. Senator O'Toole is correct about people's lack of confidence in the Government. Yesterday I made the point, which a Member on the opposite side queried, that people do not believe what they are being told. That is a very serious matter for a government. It is one thing to disagree with a government but another not to believe it. There is a credibility gap with the figures behind yesterday's reversal and many other issues. The Government needs to engage seriously with the people, giving them the information and clarity they require and deserve.

Over the summer holidays, the Supreme Court brought in a serious judgment which involved criticism of the Legislature in respect of the health insurance scheme and BUPA. I am very critical of the ideology espoused by the Minister for Health and Children regarding the health services. This is one area, however, in which I agree with her. I support her position in the BUPA case in which she argued to the Supreme Court that the important principle of risk equalisation was a fundamental prerequisite for the effective operation of community rating. In other words, it is to share the cost of health care across the board and to charge younger and healthier people a disproportionate cost for health insurance to support those who are older and more in need of services.

It is a very noble communitarian principle which I would extend. The entire community, in particular those well able to pay more for health services, should be called upon to pay their fair share for a truly universal system of health care.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Alex WhiteAlex White (Labour)
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The communitarian ideals the Minister argued in the Supreme Court in the BUPA case should be extended across the board. For once and for all, let us face up to the need to have a proper health service with the same minimum standard of health care for all citizens, irrespective of income.

The risk equalisation scheme was interrupted in 2005 and has not yet come into place. When will the legislation be introduced for dealing with the effects of the Supreme Court judgment in the BUPA case? Will the Leader invite the Minister for Health and Children to debate the risk equalisation issue and allow us an opportunity to consider the wider question of universal health care which arises from this case?

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Leader invite the Minister for Transport to the House to debate transport aspects of the budget, particularly the €10 and €2 airport departure charge? This would give us an opportunity to forensically examine the budget on issues such as this. Last week, we made a case for the medical card for the over-70s and the Government has responded positively.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Senator supported the budget measure last week.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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In this measure, a plane with a capacity below 20 passengers will be exempt from the charge. Such planes should be paying €20 per passenger when flying from an airport; small private jets should be doubly charged and not exempted. Dublin Airport has now a major advantage over Shannon——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader? I do not want a debate on the matter.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I am trying to elaborate on why I want the Minister for Transport to be invited the House. One can fly from Dublin to England and be exempt from the €10 charge but not from Knock, Shannon or Cork to England. That gives another advantage to Dublin Airport. Our job on this side of the House is to forensically examine the budget to ensure no other situation arises similar to that which arose last week. I suggest to the Leader that the matter to which I refer must be amended in the Finance Bill. It is being introduced in March 2009. We have the opportunity now. First, all the Irish airports should be treated equally. There should be no difference in the charge, whether one departs from Shannon, Knock, Cork, Waterford or Dublin. They all should be on an equal footing.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Table a motion.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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A discussion document.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Second, all private jets should be charged double the rate——

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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It is easier to means test the elderly than to means test the owners of the private jets.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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——and those who are non-resident here should pay for coming back here for their weekends.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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They can means test the elderly but they cannot means test the owners of the private jets.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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They should be paying for returning to the country as well. We have an opportunity.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Leyden's point is made.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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We had those changed last week.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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They can means test the elderly but they cannot means test the owners of the private jets.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Read my speech on Thursday last.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Leyden, your point is made.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Read my speech on Thursday last.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I call Senator Buttimer.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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They cannot means test owners of private jets, apparently.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Senator Leyden has made the case for the new name of Fianna Fáil, which should be the flip-flop party. Yet again, he has underlined the double-speak of Fianna Fáil.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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A question to the Leader.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I am coming to that.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator's party has no credibility on the issue of people over 70.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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That is outrageous.

Senators:

That is a disgrace.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Leyden should not interrupt.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The convenient side of Fianna Fáil. Talking out of political convenience.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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No interruptions, please.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Buttimer constantly interrupts everybody in this House.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Buttimer without interruption, please.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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But he never honours that, a Chathaoirligh.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Please, I am asking Senator Leyden——

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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If Senator Buttimer honours it, I will honour it.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I make that decision and if people are not going to honour it, there is lots of room outside for them.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I can show the Cathaoirleach ten interruptions on one sheet.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Buttimer, without interruption.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I understand why some Senators on the Government side are upset because they will not be there for long more.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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That is not relevant to the Order of Business. The Senator should ask questions of the Leader on the Order of Business.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Ivor CallelyIvor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Buttimer is a long time on that side.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Like Senator Fitzgerald, I ask the Leader to hold the debate today on No. 24, motion 25, today. In so doing, I ask him whether he and the Members on the Government side defend the savage attack on the elderly. If we are serious about politics, then today is a day when we should have a debate about the fact that over the past seven days, elderly people have made sacrifices in taking medication and in attending general practitioners because of fear and confusion.

Photo of Kieran PhelanKieran Phelan (Fianna Fail)
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A speech.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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We were accused in this House of playing politics. We have not played politics with it.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Ask Deputy Reilly.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Members, please.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Has this Government forgotten the old idea to which we all aspire of respect for our elders? Have we abandoned the constitutional claim to protect and cherish our young people? Will the Leader stand over the 32 cuts in education that will worsen class sizes and lead to a denigration of the provision of education for all our young people?

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for arranging to take on the Adjournment last night the motion on Irish prisoners abroad.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Yesterday's business is over and done with.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Martin, for coming to the House himself and bringing Members up to date on the tremendous work and how many of the recommendations have been implemented.

Photo of Ivor CallelyIvor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Questions to the Leader, please.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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It is a great result on a matter I raised a year ago and I am most appreciative.

I call on the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, to come to the House for a debate and an open discussion on the issue of the quality of life for older people in our country. Yesterday morning I attended the meeting in Westland Row church. One had to be there to really experience the atmosphere. It is no good telling people there were so many present. I thought approximately 1,800 people were present. Judging by the people's faces, most of the women were ex-public servants or civil servants. Many of the women who spoke stated that they had had to give up their jobs when they got married. They stayed at home and minded their families because they had had to give up their jobs. They did not have an income of their own and they felt they were being thrown aside by the Government.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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By Fianna Fáil.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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I feel personally responsible as a spokesperson for the Government in the Seanad on older people. I want to hear what the Minister has to say about her vision for older people so as to regain their confidence.

Sitting in the church yesterday morning felt like when the candlelight masses were held on Wednesday mornings in Leipzig and big cities in the former East Germany calling for the wall to be brought down, the emotion was so high. No one can criticise what happened or was said there unless he or she was sitting there.

Photo of Alex WhiteAlex White (Labour)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I agree with every single word uttered by Senator Mary White. I was present at the church. It was an astonishing spectacle. I have never experienced anything like it. It was the risen people.

It is extraordinary that Fianna Fáil, which was always the party par excellence in terms of being in touch with the grass roots, seems to have lost its antenna. It did not listen to the people on this issue and now the people will not listen to it. When the Minister of State, Deputy John Moloney, went to the microphone a palpable wave of anger travelled down the body of the church and walloped off him, as it were. His face went parchment white. The microphone was taken from him and he was told, "Shame on you; shame on you." It was an extraordinary spectacle and very dangerous.

As we head into an economic storm, the one thing we need is a sure hand on the tiller and firm Government that has moral authority and the support of all the people, including the different parties. By political cack-handedness, regrettably, the Government has lost it. Its targets were wrong. It is not that the Government does not have an ideology. It is that too much ideology has leaked in from the Progressive Democrats. Competition is all we heard about.

We hear, for example, Members on the Government side of the House raise the issue of universality. They are against it but are for it when their Government puts a 1% tax on everyone, which is the most shameful measure I have ever come across in my life. I will say what they are doing because I have tried to say it and I was stopped.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Questions to the Leader, please.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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When will the Minister come to the House to address with Members matters such as the scrapping of the Combat Poverty Agency when poverty is being created all around us? The Government has halved the budget for the Equality Tribunal and is proceeding with its decentralisation to Portarlington. This is all in advance of a report it has commissioned about efficiency and value for money. Before it gets the report, it will implement its decisions regarding the Competition Authority, the Equality Authority, the Combat Poverty Agency and the Data Protection Commissioner.

What has the Government not hit? We have heard from Senator O'Toole that prosecutions of criminals may not be able to proceed efficiently. What is the Government doing to the Competition Authority that stuck its nose into certain negotiations? When that authority was set up, the Government did not even provide for competition for its own executives until the Seanad inserted that for it.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The point is made.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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The authority failed in its duty because it neglected a deadline by which it could deal properly with a major multinational but it was able to crucify the members of Irish Equity on the sum of €7,500 when it would not allow the organisation to engage in collective bargaining. It was deemed a cartel——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has made his point.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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——and that is a disgrace. On universality, we on this side of the House were asked whether we had ever seen millionaires in accident and emergency departments, etc. I can tell this House honestly that I have seen the equivalent, as have we all. I have seen very wealthy people taking every handout, grant and free gift from the taxpayer and using them as pocket money.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The point is made.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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That is why I am in favour of means tests, but if the Government has means tests to exclude the rich, it must have proper and decent ones to save the poor who are being betrayed by the Government.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has made his point. I call Senator Daly.

Photo of Mark DalyMark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I support my colleague, Senator Leyden, with regard to the proposed levy and the 300 km limit which puts Kerry and the west coast at a huge disadvantage.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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The Government does not care about down there. Look at Valentia, Shannon and Dingle. It does not care.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Daly, without interruption.

Photo of Mark DalyMark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I take Senator O'Toole's point but I believe the Minister will listen.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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He has not listened up to now.

Photo of Mark DalyMark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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There should be equality for Cork Airport as well, Senator Buttimer, and for all airports on the west coast. Obviously, using Dublin Airport as the focal point for the mileage is inequitable to people on the west coast. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister to the House to discuss this matter.

Photo of Eugene ReganEugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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I note that Members on the Government side of the House are quite smug this morning. The revolt in Fianna Fáil over the medical card for those over 70 has ended.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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A question for the Leader, please.

Photo of Eugene ReganEugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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Yes, but I wish to explain the question. The revolt has ended on the Government benches but has——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is not entitled to make a speech on the Order of Business.

11:00 am

Photo of Eugene ReganEugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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A Chathaoirligh, I believe I am allowed to formulate my question in the manner I consider appropriate. The question is whether the revolt of the elderly has ended and whether the Government's policy of divide and conquer has succeeded. We will find out today whether the solidarity of the elderly will hold. The Government has solved a problem within its ranks but not necessarily the problem that has been created by the injustice done. Only 5% of those over 70 will be affected. That is just a statistic but it represents 20,000 people who may be asked by the Health Service Executive, following its spot checks and harassment, to return their medical cards. When that happens, will those Members be so smug?

The question that arises from this event is how the Taoiseach could get it so wrong. According to an article in The Irish Times which correctly analyses the situation, there have been five sets of eligibility criteria for medical cards for those over 70 in just one week. The Taoiseach has apologised. He also said that the Government foresaw this, however, so the upset and harassment caused to the elderly was premeditated.

The country is in a deep economic recession. We have a problem in our relations with the rest of Europe and there is the issue of what type of society we are creating. Will it be a fair and just society or will we pick off the weakest in the management of the economy as it pulls out of recession? There must be a serious question about the qualifications and capability of the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance and the Tánaiste to manage the economy, resolve the issues in our relations with Europe and create a just society. Does the Leader agree with the demand that 20,000 people hand back their medical cards?

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I support the call of Opposition Members for a debate on medical cards for those over 70. Senator Buttimer is getting ready to say something but Senator, for once what I will say to you——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator must direct her remarks to the Leader through the Chair and not mind who is on the other side.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Senator Buttimer that there was fear and confusion; there is no doubt about that. However, at 10 a.m. yesterday, that fear and confusion was lifted.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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It was not in the church.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I disagree with Senator Buttimer's comment that Fine Gael is not playing politics with this. I believe it is by not informing the electorate of what was introduced at 10 a.m. yesterday when the Taoiseach spoke on national radio. Fine Gael is playing politics by bussing its supporters to Dublin today——

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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Do not be ridiculous.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I believe that is what Fine Gael is doing.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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That is not true.

Photo of Dominic HanniganDominic Hannigan (Labour)
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Fianna Fáil will not make the same mistake again.

Photo of Nicky McFaddenNicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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That is outrageous.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Feeney should direct questions to the Leader on the Order of Business.

Photo of Paudie CoffeyPaudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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That is a new low.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I usually respect what most colleagues in this House say and I am usually of the same opinion. Senator Alex White and Senator Norris spoke about what happened in St. Andrew's Church yesterday. I was not there but I watched the news last night and was horrified at the behaviour of a small percentage of those over 70. What example does that offer? What I saw was rudeness and bad manners.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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It was the whole body of the people. I was there.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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A Chathaoirligh, I am entitled——

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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It was the whole body of the people, not just a percentage.

Photo of Paudie CoffeyPaudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is in denial now.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is out of touch, like the Government.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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That small group did not represent the people I represent in this House. I have received phone calls to tell me that. What would have happened if it had been a younger age group? The whole country would have been up in arms if that number of people had been allowed into a Catholic church to behave in such a manner.

Photo of Paudie CoffeyPaudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is attacking our elderly.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I am not attacking the elderly; I am 100% with the elderly.

Photo of Alex WhiteAlex White (Labour)
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Keep it going.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I am talking about a small group. I am as entitled as anyone else to air my opinion in this House.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but we are dealing with the Order of Business——

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I did not interrupt——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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——and questions should be put to the Leader on the Order of Business.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I will put my question to the Leader. However, I will preface it by pointing out that there was no need for such rudeness and bad manners yesterday. When we have that debate I will make the point that my party, Fianna Fáil, is the natural party for the majority of the elderly in this country.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Try saying that outside the gate today.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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They will be outside at 12.30 today. I will bring the Senator out.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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The Opposition can sneer and laugh as much as it wishes. However, the reason it is in the political wilderness is evident. It does not know how to communicate with or accommodate the elderly.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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That is not relevant.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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We do.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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Not any more.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator's comments about the Opposition are not relevant.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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That is the reason my party has been the leading party in Government for so long in this country.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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That is not relevant, Senator. I call Senator Healy Eames.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Regan need not worry. We know how to deal with the issues.

Photo of Alex WhiteAlex White (Labour)
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Is that the best you can do? That is pretty pathetic.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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In solidarity with the public, I wish to express my outright opposition to the attack on our children's education in primary and secondary schools in last week's budget. This is the most important area in which the country should be investing. Last week I sought an urgent debate with the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, to discuss the education cuts and their effects on our children's learning outcomes. We have now received the details of these savage cuts and I wish to know when they will be addressed. Let me outline the detail of these cuts. As a nation we are facing——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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If the Leader agrees to invite the Minister, the Senator can discuss it then.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I need a few moments now. I have been seeking this time.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I cannot give the Senator moments.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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As a nation we are facing——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, you have requested that the Leader invite the Minister for Education and Science to the House. You have made that point well. You should not——

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I need to explain my rationale. I deserve the time to formulate my reason. As a nation, we are facing the loss of more than 1,000 teachers in primary schools alone. These posts are not just lost to the teachers but also to our children. In Galway city, Mervue national school is losing seven teachers.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, that is not relevant.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Claddagh national school is losing four teachers.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Schools throughout the country may be affected.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I need to explain why——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, you have made your request. I ask you to resume your seat.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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A Chathaoirligh, you can throw me out if you choose——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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No.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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——but I need time to stand up against the attack on our children's education and their futures.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator said today that she would be thrown out of the House. She predicted it.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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It is not fair that we are reaching a point where our children will have less teacher contact time.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I will adjourn the House if the Senator does not resume her seat.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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It is worth adjourning the House over this attack.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator will have ample time when the Minister comes to the House.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I have not had this addressed. It is urgent.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator will get ample time.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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We are losing 1,000 posts to our children.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The point was raised yesterday by several other Senators.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I have not had a chance to elaborate on this.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator——

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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It is too serious.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Did the Senator not contribute on the debate on the budget? All Members had an opportunity to do so last week.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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It is only in the past week that the cuts are coming through.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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No, all such announcements were in the budget.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I beg the Cathaoirleach's indulgence.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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No. I must be fair to all Members.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I am the spokesperson for education.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Yesterday on the Order of Business, I could not allow time to eight or nine Senators because others overran theirs.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I was one of them.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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It is the very same this morning and a number of Senator Healy Eames's fellow Senators will be unable to contribute. The Senator has made the point very well to the Leader. If the Leader allows the debate, Senator Healy Eames will have whatever time is allowed in which to make a contribution on this matter. I ask her to resume her seat. She has made a strong point.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I am looking for a total of one minute——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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No.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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——to talk about the attack on our children's education and——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has done so already.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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——and the attack on our futures.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should respect the Chair.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I do but am asking the Chairman for decent time.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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She has made her point very well and I want to call the next speaker.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I totally respect the Chairman but have not been given a chance to articulate the facts.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator may do so during the debate when it is allowed.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The Chairman does not realise there are worried teachers, parents and children.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Senator to resume her seat. I call the next speaker.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I need an answer today on when we are to have this debate.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should give the Leader the opportunity to reply later. I call Senator Hanafin.

Photo of John Gerard HanafinJohn Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader for a debate on fair and progressive taxation. In doing so, I welcome the changes made in the budget, particularly the change to the 1% income levy and the change to the medical card scheme. Any couple over 70 earning €73,000 per annum would have earned over €100,000 per annum during their working lives and this is why I would like a debate specifically on fair and progressive taxation. Hiding behind the mask of universality will not suffice in this case. It is not unreasonable in difficult times that those who can well afford to pay be asked to do so.

In the United States the example of "Joe the Plumber" is used. Here they use——

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Paddy the plasterer.

Photo of John Gerard HanafinJohn Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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——the example of the Galway tent.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Hanafin without interruption. There should be no smart remarks from the floor, from any side.

Photo of John Gerard HanafinJohn Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I was going to say the example of the Galway tent is used. I am sure the senior Members who used to visit the Galway tent would like to thank the Labour Party for supporting the retention of their medical cards. The Labour Party members are the people who have, for expediency, given up on the principle of fair and progressive taxation.

Photo of Alex WhiteAlex White (Labour)
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The Senator does not even understand our position. That is nonsense.

Photo of John Gerard HanafinJohn Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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The only party representing all the people is Fianna Fáil. Those on the left have been left by Labour but Fianna Fáil will be there for them.

Photo of Alex WhiteAlex White (Labour)
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On the right.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I call Senator Coffey. I apologise for not being able to call him yesterday.

Photo of Paudie CoffeyPaudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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I support the calls by Senators Leyden and Daly urging support for regional airports. It amuses me to note, however, that they raise local and regional issues in the House but boast that they will deal with matters of national concern through their parliamentary party. This is parish-pump politics of the highest order.

Let me speak on behalf of the groups most dependent on the State for their support, namely, the children and elderly. This budget was called, before the present banking turmoil affected the country, to deal with the huge deficits in our public finances. Even so, it will not deal with the deficits coming down the line. I have often heard lectures in this House on how well the economy has been managed by the Government.

I remind the House that the wastage of public finances over the years has led to the suffering of the children and elderly. Some €52 million was wasted on electronic voting. It cannot be stated enough that the Government dismissed any opposition to the project. Some €160 million was wasted on PPARS, there was a €37 million overspend on the Kilkenny flood relief scheme and €99.5 million was spent on Campus Stadium Ireland. Considerable sums of public money have gone down the drain. Who are suffering only the ordinary people?

This was one of the most mean-spirited and soft-option budgets ever. It was given a standing ovation by Members on the Government side. It was an attack on the children and the elderly and it is a disgrace. It has caused fear, confusion and concern in every community and the Government Senators should be ashamed of themselves. They are a disgrace and I tell them this to their faces across this House. The Government has lost all its personal touch and its connection with human nature and values, as demonstrated in the budget.

I call for a debate on the educational needs of our children. I was in a classroom yesterday morning with 36 junior infants. The class above had 34 senior infants, which is a disgrace. The measures introduced in the budget will increase these class sizes even further. We need positive, proactive investment in our future. What better approach than to invest in our children and protect our elderly?

Photo of Brendan RyanBrendan Ryan (Labour)
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Last week's budget introduced a 1% levy on all income. The Government rowed back on it to some extent yesterday by exempting those earning the minimum wage. I still have some concerns about it and am not sure whether it was raised in the House before — I do not believe it was raised today. I refer to the knock-on effect of the 1% levy. Many local authorities apply a bin tax waiver for individuals and families who are liable to no tax of any kind. Unfortunately there are some privatised systems around the country under which it is not applied, but that is a separate issue. I ask the Leader to urge the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the Minister for Finance to ensure no family entitled to a waiver before the introduction of the 1% levy will become ineligible for it as a consequence of its introduction. All Senators would agree that families who have been hurt by the 1% levy should not be hurt further through the loss of entitlement to a bin tax waiver.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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I ask the Leader for a debate on universal access to public services. There has been much talk on universality in the wake of last week's budget because the Government is clearly set on attacking the principle of universal access to public services and introducing a means test for a range of benefits. In saying this, I include the signal by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, last week that he would be reviewing the universal payment of child benefit. There is immense fear and confusion, particularly among the elderly but also among other sectors, who fear all kinds of other benefits could well be subject to a means test and no longer granted on a universal basis.

There was another way to ensure the rich would pay more and that was simply to tax them more. However, the Government did not do so and instead took the dishonest step of imposing a levy, which is a very crude instrument. A simple levy of 1% applies to those earning up to €100,000 and a levy of 2% applies to those earning over that amount. This does not tax the rich sufficiently. Doing so would be a fairer way to raise revenue rather than withdrawing public benefits. We need a debate on universality to determine the Government's true ideology and what it really believes about universal access to public services.

We have seen U-turns in respect of various measures in the budget. There appears to be one in respect of the Civil Partnership Bill. We saw the heads and were promised the Bill itself would be published this September. What has happened to it? Are we to see yet another U-turn by the Government?

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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One of the good things to have emerged from the sorry debacle over recent days is the recognition yesterday that we cannot and should not carry out a range of new means tests. I have been saying this for a long time. While I put it to he Leader previously, I put it to him again that he should explore, with the Government, the removal of the means test for the non-contributory old age pension. The cost of administering that test is greater than any savings accrued, it is another source of terror for our old people and it is inequitable and wrong, given that most non-contributory old age pensioners are women who had to leave the workplace as a result of the marriage ban and very small farmers who did not have PRSI contributions.

The potential of the carer's allowance — this must be examined perhaps by way of a pilot scheme — to keep people out of institutional care has not yet been explored. I put it to the Leader that if the Government were to consider increasing the amount of the carer's allowance, perhaps by way of a pilot scheme in a limited area, but, more particularly, removing the means test, many people would opt to become carers in the current economic climate. That would keep people out of institutional care and save the State enormous amounts of money. I appeal to the Leader to consider that.

The Leader should provide clarity for this House on an issue raised earlier. I put it to him that the 5% figure of people who have an income of more than €35,000 could not possibly be right. Anecdotal evidence and that from our own range of friends would indicate that is not the case. The figure is more likely to be 15% to 20%. The 5% figure is wrong. It is a public relations spin. I ask the Leader to seek clarification on that for the sake of transparency.

Photo of Dominic HanniganDominic Hannigan (Labour)
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A clear example of how out of touch some members of the Government parties are is Senator Feeney's comments earlier about the Opposition busing supporters to Dublin.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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That is what they did.

Photo of Dominic HanniganDominic Hannigan (Labour)
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We could not have stopped them if we tried. There was a level of anger out there that has——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Questions to the Leader, not to other Senators.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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The majority of them were Dublin people.

Photo of Dominic HanniganDominic Hannigan (Labour)
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——never been seen before.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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They had no distance to travel.

Photo of Dominic HanniganDominic Hannigan (Labour)
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We must recognise that there are some people in the Senator's party who see this clearly. I could not disagree with a word of what Senator Mary White said earlier. Obviously she has a clear idea of what is going on outside this House but Senator White and others in her party should consider their position. You do not have to support the Government on this issue.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Dominic HanniganDominic Hannigan (Labour)
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You can move to our benches.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should speak through the Chair.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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A fate worse than death.

Photo of Nicky McFaddenNicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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I did not expect to be called; I thank the Cathaoirleach for his indulgence. I concur with the call from my colleague, Senator Healy-Eames, that we would have an urgent debate on education. I had calls from the principal of the local secondary school in Athlone yesterday and his main concern is in regard to teacher substitution. Come next January, when people are suffering from influenza and so on, there could be up to six teachers absent without certification. He does not know what he is to do. He said that the only option will be to send children home. I ask the Leader to ask the Minister to come into the House as a matter of urgency to allow us discuss that very serious issue. These are our children and we cannot allow them to be sent home because there is nobody available to teach them.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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Like Senator McFadden I had expected not to be called. I had rather hoped not to be called and to be called first tomorrow but I will accept my lot. I support the calls that have been made for a debate on education. That is a crying need and the issue that will erupt in the next week but we cannot get the Minister for Education and Science in here because the Minister is in China, and it is the wrong place for him to be. It is extraordinary that when an issue as important as this one has broken and should have been anticipated, the Minister for Education and Science is at the other side of the world with the Taoiseach. We cannot have him here today, tomorrow or any other time because for some reason he is in China on some mission which he has no right to be on. That mission is organised by Enterprise Ireland, which is one of the great oxymorons of the public service, but why is the Tánaiste not out there? That is the Tánaiste's Department. Apparently, the Tánaiste is in charge here, which does not fill me with a great deal of confidence, but the Minister for Education and Science is in China. In the meantime, this morning the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food came out as the kind of all-purpose spokesman for the Government on issues that have nothing to do with agriculture. This Government appears to be at sea. It has lost its nerve, and that is one of the reasons the people have lost a certain amount of confidence in it.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Questions to the Leader.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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The wrong people are talking about the wrong issues while the Taoiseach and the Minister who should be here are on the other side of the world.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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They are out seeking jobs.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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There is major confusion, and I ask the Leader to address this, that investment has got nothing to do with education but with pounds, shillings and pence. The Government has taken a view that education funding can be cut in the same way as public finances in other areas, in other words, taxation.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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Balance sheet.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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We urgently need a debate on education, which does not address just the issue of how much can be saved but the long-term vision.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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I ask the Leader to give us a commitment that when the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, has stopped giving interviews about education — about which he is not in touch — from the other side of the world, he will come in here either tomorrow — there is time for him to get back here, where he should be — or early next week for a debate on education.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Like Senator Coffey, I, too, agree with Senators Leyden and Daly on the extra unfair imposition on passengers travelling from Kerry international airport and other western seaboard airports to near airports in Britain. It is blatant discrimination——

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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——and I ask that we restore the level playing pitch for our citizens regardless of the area in which they reside, which is the least we can expect. I ask the Leader to arrange for the line Minister to come into the House for a debate and to explain the rationale on that.

Photo of Michael McCarthyMichael McCarthy (Labour)
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On the medical card issue, it is my understanding that the Government will now have to repeal the Health Act to give effect to the most recent changes. If that is the case, can we get an assurance from the Minister for Health and Children, through the Leader, that the Minister will not interfere with those income limits next year? It is not certain whether those limits will stand next year and if the current economic crisis is not resolved by then, it is likely that the Government can change limits to suit it. On the medical cards disaster, how much of the €100 million will be saved as a result of this 11th hour U-turn?

We have seen an excellent display of organised protest from the representatives of those aged over 70 and those in that category who will apply for the card in the near future. It is disrespectful and demeaning for anybody to suggest they were not capable of organising the transport themselves.

Photo of Alex WhiteAlex White (Labour)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I want to send our best wishes to our former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, who suffered an accident yesterday. I was sorry to hear that and I look forward to seeing him in the House later this evening.

Senators Fitzgerald, Alex White, O'Toole, Buttimer, Mary White, Norris, Regan, Feeney, Healy Eames, Hanafin, Coghlan, Ryan, Bacik, O'Reilly, Hannigan, Ross and McCarthy expressed strong views on the budget, and particularly the medical card aspect of it. The facts are that the Government had decided, and made an announcement yesterday morning, that regarding the new income threshold for medical cards, persons aged over 70, whose gross weekly income is €700 per week or €36,500 or less per year for a single person or €1,400 per week or €73,000 per annum for a couple, will continue to have a full medical card. In addition, those with incomes above the threshold experiencing difficulty in meeting their medical needs will be eligible to apply for a medical card under the Health Service Executive discretionary medical card scheme. As I informed the House yesterday, I understand there are approximately 70,000 people in that discretionary medical card scheme and I complimented the general practitioners, our public representatives and members of the HSE who understood the circumstances which credited the discretionary medical card being given to those in need but who were caught a little above the threshold.

Tomorrow in the House we will have statements on health promotion priorities. This will be a wide-ranging debate on health issues. I want to inform the House that I have passed on the request made to me by many Members yesterday, particularly the leaders of the groups and the leader of the Opposition, Senator Fitzgerald, to have the Minister, Deputy Harney, present in the House at the earliest opportunity. I am awaiting a response from the Minister in respect of the matter.

I also announced to the House yesterday that I welcome the fact that the 1% income levy will not be applied in respect of those on the minimum wage. These people comprise approximately one third of the workforce and earn €17,500 or less per annum.

I do not know the position in most other local authority areas but the local authority of which Senator Glynn and I were previously members introduced a scheme under which anyone in possession of a medical card is automatically entitled to a waiver in respect of refuse charges. If this is not the position in their areas, perhaps Members might discuss the matter with their local authority representatives. When the scheme was introduced in Westmeath it was extremely successful. Local authority members in each electoral area have their fingers on the pulse.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Is this the Order of Business?

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Regardless of whether Senators or Deputies like it, local authority members are the most well-informed public representatives of the lot. Councillors are most representative of people of all political persuasions at local level.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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That is two quotas the Leader has gained.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I will ensure that the Minister comes before the House at the earliest opportunity in order that Members may express their views and decide which party has best catered for the needs of the underprivileged since the foundation of the State.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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We would win that competition.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Senator's party is not catering for them now.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader, without interruption.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I will endeavour to arrange a debate on education. However, I was surprised by the comments of Senator Ross who is the representative of the financial institutions and an expert on banking. I thought he would understand that every trade mission worth its salt——

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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I certainly do not represent any financial institutions. If the Leader——

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I did not say that.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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Are we obliged to take the remainder of what the Leader says as seriously as we must take that comment?

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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What I meant to say is that the Senator is an expert in banking.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Leader is flip-flopping again.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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His background is entirely as an expert in financial matters. During our lifetimes, many of us have placed our trust in the Senator in that regard.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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I do not trust myself.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader to reply, without interruption, to the questions raised.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I respect the Senator as having those qualities. On every trade mission worth its salt to China, India, Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Riyadh, Toronto and various parts of America — which I visited as Chairman of an Oireachtas committee — the Taoiseach has been always accompanied by the Minister for Education and Science. Why has that been the case?

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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I bet the Leader would not tell people in those places that the Minister for Education and Science is cutting back on education spending.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Toole should allow me to give the House the benefit of my experience.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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And wisdom.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Ireland is a young country and is admired by the world for the standard of education people here receive.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Wait until they get the most recent news.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Some 50% of the population is under 35 years of age. We have a major asset at our disposal in the context of attracting investment. Successive Ministers for Education and Science of all political hues who have represented the country on trade missions have done us a fantastic service. I have served as a Member of this House for longer than Senator O'Toole——

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Not when one takes the Leader's break in service into account.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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——but not quite as long as Senator Ross. There are five glorious weeks in the difference. What one learned in those five weeks is immeasurable and the House can benefit from it.

Senators Leyden, Daly, Coffey and Coghlan requested that the Minister for Transport come before the House to discuss the creation of a level playing field in respect of the proposed €10 and €2 airport departure charges. I have no difficulty in arranging a debate on this matter and after the Order of Business I will request the Minister's office to indicate a date on which he might attend.

Senator Coffey is a strong voice for the people in his area and I have always respected him as such. There is no good reason the storage of the electronic voting machines should cost the State anything. Why are they not placed in the control of the Army and deposited in high-security areas?

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Why are they not put in the bin and a line drawn under the matter?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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That cannot be done because contracts were signed in respect of them.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Contracts were signed and the bill must be paid.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senators were given an opportunity to make their contributions. I did not interrupt anyone. I am making a meaningful suggestion.

Photo of Paudie CoffeyPaudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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The machines are obsolete.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The State is paying for the storage of these machines. I suggest that they be placed under the supervision of the Army because there would then be no cost to the State.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Leader should tell the Minister that.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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A presidential election will take place in the United States of America in two weeks' time and such machines will be used there.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Look how wrong the Americans got it on a previous occasion.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Irish people require confidentiality in respect of their votes and until the technology to ensure this becomes available, the machines should be left in the care of the Army in order that there will be no cost to the State.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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They should be blown up.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Reilly referred to non-contributory old age pensions. The number of people on such pensions is decreasing and, as the Senator correctly pointed out, most of those in this category are women who, in the 1960s, were not allowed to remain in the workforce when they got married. I will pass the Senator's strong views on to the Minister. I fully support the Senator in this regard. When we considered this matter approximately three to four years ago, the number of people in receipt of these pensions was 26,000. I am sure this figure has decreased to below 20,000.

Senator O'Reilly also made a proposal for a pilot scheme in respect of carer's allowance and referred to ensuring that patients remain outside long-term institutions. The Senator's suggestion is good and I will communicate his views to the relevant Minister.

I already referred to the issue of investment for the future in replying to the comments made by Senator Ross.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I inquired about airport charges.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I already covered that and agreed to have a debate on the matter.

Photo of Alex WhiteAlex White (Labour)
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What is the position regarding legislation relating to the risk equalisation scheme?

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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I also inquired about legislation on civil partnerships.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I have a list of legislation to be dealt with during the current session. Report Stage of the Charities Bill will be taken in the Dáil later this month and the legislation should be before the Seanad in early November. The finance Bill will be published in December. It is hoped that it will be introduced here on the final working Friday before Christmas and that Committee and Remaining Stages will be taken on the following Monday. The social welfare Bill will also be published in December. The Nursing Homes Support Scheme Bill is currently before the Dáil and it is hoped that all Stages will be completed by Christmas. The legislation is expected to be taken in the Seanad in the next session. The cluster munitions legislation, which was the subject of a query on a previous Order of Business and which has not yet been published, must be dealt with by 3 December 2008. I assure the House that the Civil Partnership Bill will go ahead.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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When?

Photo of Alex WhiteAlex White (Labour)
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What is the position regarding legislation on risk equalisation?

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I understand it will be dealt with in the next session.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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What about the Civil Partnership Bill?

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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It is going ahead.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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In the next session?

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Fitzgerald has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That statements on the Government's decision to withdraw the automatic entitlement to medical cards for citizens aged over 70 years be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?

Amendment put.

The Dail Divided:

For the motion: 20 (Ivana Bacik, Paddy Burke, Jerry Buttimer, Paudie Coffey, Paul Coghlan, Maurice Cummins, Pearse Doherty, Frances Fitzgerald, Dominic Hannigan, Fidelma Healy Eames, Michael McCarthy, Nicky McFadden, David Norris, Joe O'Reilly, Joe O'Toole, Phil Prendergast, Eugene Regan, Shane Ross, Brendan Ryan, Alex White)

Against the motion: 27 (Dan Boyle, Martin Brady, Larry Butler, Ivor Callely, John Carty, Donie Cassidy, Maria Corrigan, Mark Daly, John Ellis, Geraldine Feeney, Camillus Glynn, John Gerard Hanafin, Cecilia Keaveney, Terry Leyden, Marc MacSharry, Lisa McDonald, Brian Ó Domhnaill, Labhrás Ó Murchú, Francis O'Brien, Denis O'Donovan, Fiona O'Malley, Ned O'Sullivan, Ann Ormonde, Kieran Phelan, Jim Walsh, Mary White, Diarmuid Wilson)

Tellers: Tá, Senators Paudie Coffey and Maurice Cummins; Níl, Senators Fiona O'Malley and Diarmuid Wilson.

Amendment declared lost.

Order of Business agreed to.