Seanad debates
Thursday, 22 November 2007
Education Policy: Statements
11:00 am
Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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It is good to have even a brief opportunity to contribute to a debate on this important issue. A fundamental in everyone's life is the right to education. When I was made spokesperson I made it clear that it is one of the basic rights. The better the opportunity given to children from nought to six and from six onwards, the better a society and the better rounded people we will have.
I will begin by being parochial by referring to statistics pertaining to County Donegal. I commend the Minister for Education and Science on the investment of €104 million in the schools building programme in the county between 1998 and 2006. People in Donegal are extremely proud of the €35 million that has been invested in Letterkenny Institute of Technology since 1997 and of the investment in 2007 of €7.5 million in adult and further education in the county.
A total of 81 primary schools and 12 post-primary schools in County Donegal participate in DEIS and I refer to the impact the programme has made to assist those who are from the most disadvantaged areas. One knows that a programme is a success when one receives complaints about it. Many people have complained to me that their school does not participate in DEIS and have asked the reason their schools are being placed at a disadvantage by their non-inclusion in DEIS. One tries to explain that such schools are being disadvantaged because the schools that qualify for DEIS do so because of their disadvantaged status. Like everything else, if one raises up all ships to the same degree, one simply perpetuates the disadvantage to those that are most disadvantaged. The Minister should note that DEIS is working if people are complaining of their exclusion from it.
While one cannot outline in ten minutes everything that should be discussed regarding education, I will start chronologically. Preschool exposure in the nought to six age group requires a collaborative approach. Potentially this could be between the Minister, the Minister of State with responsibility for children and the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism. I have carried out much work on the childhood development debate and I have raised this matter on an Adjournment debate with the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy Seán Haughey. I refer to the fact that it has been proven that the development of a child's brain is affected most deeply by his or her exposure to music. I continue to raise this issue because MRI scans show that brain development is different when a child is exposed to music. We had always considered this to be true but have not always had to hand the newly emerging proof. As such proof now exists, Ireland should be at the forefront of ensuring that it translates into our early education system. Heretofore, the debate on early education has pertained in the main to the subject of child care. This is a financial issue in respect of how much people must pay or otherwise, rather than a debate on content within child care locations. The media focus on another aspect of child care, namely, whether they comply with the correct standards in respect of cleanliness and aspects other than the content to which the child is exposed. I do not criticise the child care facilities. This should be at the forefront of this debate. It is beyond question that what children are exposed to from birth to age six is important in enabling them to learn at school and cope with the life that primary school presents. The evidence can no longer be ignored. We urgently need to plan how we can support our preschool facilities and maximise the science that underpins childhood development.
In primary schools we have seen great advances in buildings, capitation, minor work, the summer work schemes, the DEIS investment and many other programmes directed at the most disadvantaged. I hope this increase in resources continues as the cost of running schools rises owing to energy prices among other pressures. People building new houses receive grants for environmentally friendly measures such as wood-chip burners. The primary schools inform me that if they got some support towards installing small wind turbines, they might be able to generate their own energy. We have an element of environmental friendliness among schools through the green schools initiative but we also have a rising cost in the running of our schools. Schools are reaching out for solutions. Could the Minister for Education and Science and the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government communicate on the realistic opportunities? There are still difficulties, such as connecting green power sources to the ESB grid, but the schools want to be more efficient and get involved in environmentally friendly projects.
I realise the pressures on the Minister due to areas of significant growth that are putting demands on her resources for primary school buildings. I ask her to progress the projects that have recently commenced. The primary schools building programme had seemed to come to a stop for a long time but in the past decade it has moved on, mainly owing to the Minister's intervention. However a small number of schools thought they were on the way to getting new buildings but recently received letters telling them everything was on hold. If I mention the word "Clonmany" the Minister will remember being there and wondering how it had slipped off the list for so long. We want to see those schools moving to completion. I understand that in some places there are no school buildings for children under the age of seven, but there are other places where the conditions are still very bad. These are few compared with the number ten years ago, but they still exist.
The Minister is familiar with areas such as Dublin 15 where there has been a sudden increase in the catchment or population and schools must be built or expanded dramatically to deal with the rise in population. This can be because of immigration or because many houses were built in an area in a short period. There is a potential for a similar problem in the Border areas because of the so-called grannying issue. People who moved from Derry to Donegal still send their children to schools in Derry, usually by using the children's grannies' addresses in Derry and there has been a court case on it. If the court case judges that those children must go to school where they reside and not cross back into Derry, we may have a problem that will transcend all age groups, primary and post-primary, and I want the Minister and her officials to examine this urgently in case it becomes a problem. Schools in Buncrana such as Scoil Mhuire and Cranna College are already under pressure and will be under serious pressure if this changes. I would like to think we could continue to get feedback from the North-South Ministerial Council meetings. Much good work is being done but we could have much relevant input from the Border areas.
I must use my remaining time to speak on third level student supports. We are moving towards the new Bill being brought in so the changes will be statutory. I implore the Minister to keep an element of flexibility, however she can, in a statutory scheme. The students and vocational education committees are concerned that the grants have been late every year because forms were not filled out correctly. They think the forms could be simplified. The VECs and the councils feel that if they get the powers to process this, it is important they get the personnel to deal with it. The date on which the grant thresholds are released is late and we want to ensure that it is as early as possible and keep the system as simple as possible.
There are many other areas I would have loved to have raised, such as strategies for keeping young boys at school given that many of them are leaving to join the construction industry, which is declining. In the past girls left to join the textile industry. We must ensure we keep as many people in school as possible, not necessarily in an academic environment but in skills-based education that will help them adapt to career opportunities.
I want the Minister to continue to examine access to third level education. The introduction of fees in the North has been a bad step for Donegal students. I would like to think that through the North-South Ministerial Council the Minister could put pressure on Northern Ministers to prioritise the removal of third level fees in the North. It was done in Scotland. This is impacting on Donegal students and minimising their ability to get involved. To deal with the entire world of education in our allocated ten minutes is impossible, but I thank the Minister for her time.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister and acknowledge her courtesy to my three sons when they recently visited Leinster House. The Minister chatted to them and they were taken with her description of the Seanad as a centre for talented adults. I hope today's debate confirms that. This is a significant debate on an important area.
Education is the greatest catalyst for opportunity we have. It liberates and empowers people. A holistic education is the greatest gift we can give children and adults. We cannot forget that the greatest resource in our education system is our teachers. We have an extraordinarily committed, professional teaching force at primary and secondary level. They have adapted to new curricula, multiculturalism, changes in population structure and the complexities of modern society with great ease and professionalism through personal stress and effort. They invest hours beyond the school day in doing so and we must not lose our sense of gratitude to our extraordinary teachers.
In the context of creating equality of opportunity in a society founded on egalitarian principles, the creation of a State system of preschooling or the mainstreaming of what is happening in child care is of critical importance. My colleagues in the Labour Party will have much to say on that. Much is being done at community level and great work is being done through community child care groups. However this is patchy and the costs can be prohibitive, even with subvention. With little capital expenditure we could create a preschool system, and we should do so. There need be virtually no capital expenditure because many buildings will have been obtained through the capital grant schemes over recent years for preschools at all community levels, and those buildings are available for use.
There are also resource houses in many communities which could be used. Through an imaginative use of the school day many primary schools, or sections of them, could be used to create a preschool system. Nothing could more militate against disadvantage than a State preschool system. It is very necessary. Obviously, it could have a voluntary dimension but it should be developed by the State. If it is to develop incrementally it should focus initially on disadvantaged areas but I do not believe it should be incremental. Radical plans should be put in place to provide it.
In a recent collection of essays, Fergus Finlay of Barnados drew attention to the fact that Ireland rates with Turkey, or is below the radar, in the OECD in terms of its contribution to preschool education. That is very serious, and we should do something about it. I commend the provision of preschool education to the Minister as an important social reform.
When the Minister was last in the House I raised the obvious need for advance planning to cater for the new commuter belts and the movements of population. This is clear even in my constituency where many people have moved and continue to move from Dublin to live in the south Cavan area. This is great news to the extent that the population is being augmented and we welcome that. However, there is a crisis with space. There must be more planning and the Department will have to be more visionary in identifying where population growth is occurring and liaising with various bodies, such as the planning authorities, to identify those areas and to put in place infrastructure. We did not use the builders enough, particularly during the boom. There was not enough emphasis on requiring builders to create this infrastructure in large estates by contributing to the building of schools and providing areas for them. Far more could be done in this regard. It is important that we get this issue resolved and that, in future, we do not simply react to development but are involved at the outset of the development by ensuring the provision of educational facilities. We are familiar with the cases that arose in north County Dublin this year.
It remains important on every public occasion to acknowledge the enormous contribution, when nobody else would make it, of the Catholic Church to the provision of education in this country and to acknowledge the voluntary investment of people and resources in that regard. In any new configuration of education provision to cater for multiculturalism and new population centres, the role of the church should never be ignored and compensation, where it arises, should be paid. It should be a real part of the ongoing structures. We must also acknowledge people's right to denominational education should they wish to have it, as most people do. This is important, particularly in my constituency, where minority communities, such as the Church of Ireland, Presbyterians and other faiths, wish to preserve their identities and personal lifestyles. They want schools to preserve their ethos and we must be cognisant of that.
Immigration is extraordinarily important at present. Currently, there are 28,000 pupils in our schools who do not speak English as their first language and 35% of pupils are not English speakers. The provision of English classes for parents is important. There are developments in this area but more could be done. Will the Minister outline how this is progressing? Immigration should be seen as an opportunity. All empirical research suggests that the influx of new people, cultures and personalities into classrooms only increases academic excellence rather than the contrary, if the resources are put in place. It will be necessary to maintain the number of teachers in order that they can provide English classes for both pupils and parents. We must also continue to be conscious of integration. Given the recent occurrences of social disorder in Paris and other places arising from ethnic tensions and immigration, we must take the opportunity to prevent similar problems occurring here.
Discipline remains a huge issue in schools, despite the high calibre of the teaching profession. All schools should have to accept their share of disadvantaged pupils; there should be no cherry-picking. The Minister told the TUI congress that the Department is conducting an audit of enrolment policies and statistics in schools. What was the outcome of that audit? Are all schools coping with the inclusion of special needs pupils, Travellers, non-nationals and students of all communities and classes? There is a two tier system but can the Minister confirm we are not contributing to it but doing everything to prevent it? I agree with the Minister's remarks on the grind schools as reported in the national media today. The bottom line is that we should have in place policies to prevent schools acquiring an in-built advantage in that respect.
My colleague Senator Buttimer will speak about the National Educational Psychological Service or NEPS. There are problems with the lack of availability of the NEPS throughout the country. There is still a huge time lag between the time a difficulty is identified by the teacher in the classroom and the subsequent assessment. By the time intervention occurs, the problem can be too far advanced. What is the Minister doing about this? There is still an inadequate number of educational psychologists.
The director of Teagasc, Professor Gerry Boyle, a native of the Minister's county, recently made the point that the university modular system should be used to halt the flight from the land and to facilitate working with industry, communities and so forth. In particular, he said some of the modules in university courses could be used to assist both awareness of agriculture and investment in agriculture and diversification. Perhaps his suggestion would be examined.
Finally, will the Minister explain what is being done in schools in the life skills education area to tackle substance abuse and the issue of teenage pregnancies? What courses are in place? There is overall pastoral care in the schools and the teachers and school authorities do their best but what is provided of a structured nature? Schools must be used in a holistic sense to provide life skills for dealing with issues such as teenage pregnancies and addiction. In addition, pupils should be trained in the acceptance of ethnic diversity. I look forward to the Minister's response on how we are progressing in those areas.
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister and acknowledge her willingness to give so much of her time to listen to the concerns of Members about the entire spectrum of education, from primary to third level and beyond. I agree with many of the points raised by Senator O'Reilly and would welcome further debate on them. However, I will not dwell on them aside from observing that education must be holistic and the issue is how our educational system can give a rounded education to young people by using that approach.
I intend to focus my remarks on the points system for access to third level education. There have been many debates on reforming the points system. The Points Commission report was produced in 1999. It agreed that the points system is still the fairest and most transparent. It has been recognised as such by applicants, parents and the education providers. That is its strength. However, I always have been concerned that the holistic aspect of education is being lost in the process of achieving enough points to secure access to third level education. What has always concerned me about grind schools, as Senator O'Reilly mentioned, is that the reason for their existence is the colossal number of points necessary to get into third level colleges. Do the people who come out of this have a properly rounded education? We must consider this again.
I acknowledge that the Government has put a lot of money into the development of post-leaving certificate courses and the allocation of places. However, although this represents an alternative route into third level education, somehow the message is not getting out. People still have a perception that if they do not go to university they do not have a proper third level education. They do not consider the post-leaving certificate courses, which are an excellent path to certificate and ordinary degree courses and from there to honours and postgraduate degrees. This area does not get enough attention. The money is there and there are many courses with more than 30,000 places. All third level faculties can be accessed through this route, although it takes a little longer. This means that students can study at their own pace and according to their own abilities rather than being under colossal pressure to get 500 or 560 points.
The points race is soul-destroying and it is destroying our education system. This makes me wonder whether we should consider some changes to the leaving certificate examination, such as giving students a second bite of the cherry in one year. If a student has done extremely well but misses out by a few points on medicine, perhaps he or she should be given a second chance in August rather than taking a full year. I acknowledge that the Minister has tried to reform entry into medicine by introducing a new system, which is to be welcomed. However, this adds three or four more years onto the course. Could we allow students to have a second chance at the leaving certificate exam in the same year? I have been pushing for this since long before I came into this Chamber. We did have a system in which one could take two examinations in subsequent years and share the points, which was dismissed because of competitiveness in the market.
I am no longer concerned about entry into any course other than medicine. Other courses available today have alternative means of access. For example, those who want to study veterinary science can do a health science course in the Institute of Technology in Carlow followed by a veterinary course in Scotland or Wales. Many other career paths have similar alternative means of entry. The only one that does not is medicine, as the Minister has acknowledged. This is something about which I feel strongly. I would love to find out how many of us know old-fashioned doctors with a lovely bedside manner who needed no more than leaving certificate chemistry and biology to get into medical school. Many of these turned out to be superb doctors. I would love to see a return to the days when one did not have to achieve 550 points.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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We are being zapped. The Senator is being beeped.
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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Those who have a natural ability should find a path into third level education. I refer in particular to the old-fashioned medical man who has a good bedside manner, not the academic achiever who does not want to sit and listen to a patient talking about his or her illness, although very often the patient may need a chat or a psychological assessment rather than a clinical assessment. That tradition is fading and I blame the points system. We should reconsider this, particularly in relation to medicine. I do not worry about the other areas.
Another worry is that there is now access to European universities. For example, young students can go to university in Budapest. If they study chemistry and biology they can access universities on the Continent with reasonable leaving certificate results. However, should we allow this to happen?
I am very interested in reform of the points system. The system is fair and transparent but there are weaknesses. I know the Minister is interested in that area and I would like to hear her views. Unfortunately I will not be able to wait for the Minister's reply as I have to be somewhere else shortly, but I appreciate her coming here and listening to the points I have raised.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I wish to share my last five minutes with Senator Norris. I expect to receive any tolerance the Acting Chairman intends to give before we go over to Senator Norris.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I have no difficulty with that. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister to the House. Fáiltím roimh an Aire. Ba mhaith liom dhá rud a rá leis roimh a thosaím. What is the best way to contact the Minister's Department to track, for example, a building project? There seems to be some confusion as to whether we should ring the Minister's office or the relevant section. Those in the section send the query to the Minister's office, and the Minister's office rings the section.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should come up and see me some time.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I wrote a letter to the Minister this week with a PS which contains a tongue-in-cheek story of a recent experience. By the way, I must point out that the Minister's officials are always helpful and pleasant to deal with. This is not a personal criticism as the fault is in the system.
Ba mhaith liom a rá chomh maith go raibh rud ar an gclár inné that was mentioned by Senators Norris and Ormonde and me. It has come to our attention that the Dublin Institute of Technology, the largest third level institution in the country with 21,000 students, does not have access to the Irish Research eLibrary, IReL. The biggest third level institution is being kept out of the club by the universities. This is wrong and I ask the Minister to investigate. I do not have time to develop this point today.
Ba mhaith liom caint mar gheall ar rud eile atá pléite eadrainn cheana féin. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil deacrachtaí éagsúla eadrainn mar gheall ar an tumoideachais. Ba mhaith liom cúpla rud beag a rá ar an ábhar sin. Tuigim cás an Aire ar an gceist seo. Nílim ag rá nach bhfuil aon merit ann — tá. Teastaíonn uaim an rud atá ar siúl againn ó thaobh na Ghaeilge de a mhiniú. I do not fall off the chair on this. Ní amháin go bhfuil aidhm oideachais i gceist — tá aidhmeanna polaitiúla agus cultúrtha i gceist freisin. In that regard, certain compromises have to be made. Tuigim an argóint atá a dhéanamh ag an Aire — gur chóir go mbeadh balance i gcuraclam na scoile. I agree, and I have fought for that all my life. That is why I have sympathy for the Minister's position. Ar an dtaobh eile den scéal, tá na scoileanna seo ag iarraidh cuir i gcoinne an chultúr Béarla as a dtáinig na leanaí. They are trying to achieve a balance with the previous lives of the children. To that extent, tá sé an intinn ag na scoileanna go mbeadh na páistí tumtha agus sáite sa Ghaeilge ar feadh cúpla bliain, agus ansin tugtha thar n-ais go dtí an ghnáth-curaclam. Braithim go bhfuil an-argóint acu agus táim ar aon taobh leo. As the Minister knows, I have spent most of my life ag cogadh agus in full warfare leis na heagraisí Ghaeilge, ach an t-am seo caithfidh mé a rá go dtuigim an méid ata ar siúl acu and I agree with it.
We will have a debate here on the budget. I would like to hear the Minister's expectations of the Government with regard to simple things such as doubling the capitation grant for primary schools. There are children here today who are working hard with their teachers and boards of management. Can they bring back the news that they heard from the Minister for Education and Science that the primary school capitation grant will be doubled, as was indicated if not promised by the Minister in her speech at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis earlier in the year? We will park the issue of class sizes until that day comes.
What is happening with the school building fund? Tracking a school building project is like finding one's way around a maze. My office is like a crime scene investigation at the moment. For example, a school received permission in 1998 for a building project and received another letter in 1999, but the project was moved from one section to another and the school must go on a new priority list every year. It is not working out in that sense.
When will we see the investment in information and communications technology in primary schools and in post-primary schools which was promised in the budget and which is on the Minister's plan? As as far as I am aware, and I would be happy to be corrected on this, the money for it has not been put in place.
As we do not often get a chance to talk about the school curriculum because we are always in the trenches and at war, I want to look at it generally. If I could take over this island for a short period, I would rewrite the school curriculum.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I tried to do it in other lives but I could not convince my own side, never mind Senator O'Sullivan's side. An rud atá i gceist agam ná seo. An exercise I have tried with people on many occasions is to look at education in terms of serving the community and at the kind of community we now want. If one takes a group of people and asks them what qualities they want to see in the next generation of Irish political leaders, and takes another group and ask them what qualities they want to see in the next generation of Irish church leaders,——
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senator O'Toole is running out of time.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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——and if one does the same in the case of trade union leaders, business leaders, etc., they tend to come out with the same list. There are attributes such as creativity, risk taking, articulation, leadership, tolerance, mercy and others which one cannot measure and for which one cannot get points in the leaving certificate or in any examination.
How does one deal with that? We should have a clear objective of the kind of society we are trying to create and then ensure that somewhere along the way those issues are addressed in the curriculum. Cardinal Newman stated that the first quality of an educated person was tolerance. Where do we teach tolerance? I acknowledge that teachers and adults try to give good example. Where do we state, for example, that we tried at least to infuse that idea into people and where does it come into the curriculum? There should be an element of that in the curriculum.
I am winding up at this stage. I have gone over my time. Although I have more to contribute
David Norris (Independent)
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I thank Senator O'Toole for sharing his time because he is an expert in this area and would like to make a longer contribution. I am grateful to him. I also welcome the Minister.
Since we started this morning on the Order of Business with an outburst of good news from all sections, let us look at some good news. In my case, I draw attention to the fact that my old university, Trinity College, for the first time entered the first 60 universities in the world. This is a significant achievement for a small island such as ours and I am very proud of that. I am even prouder that DCU entered the first 200 and that is a terrific achievement for this relatively new university.
I also support those who have spoken about the question of the Irish research electronic library initiative. It would be scandalous if, as Senator O'Toole has alleged, it is the universities that are mean-mindedly excluding the DIT. If that is so, as a university representative I do not stand over it.
I have two slightly thorny issues which the Leader directed me to raise here. The first is the question of the four Protestant schools who are in contention. I realise there is a court case, but I want to lay out a couple of ideas in this debate. It seems there is a problem, especially with regard to lack of consultation. The Minister is shaking her head but the reason I say this is because they were bundled together with a group which apparently did not represent their point of view. The Irish School Heads Association, ISA, stated before the negotiations that it did not wish to accept this and that it would not take it on board, but it does not enjoy negotiating rights.
I find difficulty in anything to do with ethos. I really hesitate in such matters. I had great difficulty even with the Adelaide Hospital issue. I supported their position for certain clearly defined reasons and do so in this matter as well because it seems appropriate for a school to be allowed an interview to ensure the teachers fit in. It also respects the teachers.
Some of the schools that have closed, such as Greendale community school, were excellent. I have met the teachers from that school. It is not respectful simply to redeploy them willy-nilly and put them into schools that are hesitant about employing without the teachers undergoing an interview. It is not a sectarian matter. For example, I go to St. Patrick's grammar school every Sunday. Some of the boys, who are not only in the school but sing in the choir, are not members of the Church of Ireland. They are Roman Catholic. Therefore, it cannot be a sectarian matter. It is a question of bullying.
It was stated on radio that this question of protecting an ethos, which is a difficult and sensitive area for a variety of reasons, would be cast aside in the interests of the question of pay. In other words, money was more important. I wonder whether that is true.
In the light of this attitude towards the Protestant schools, I ask the Minister to look again at the exemption of all the religious schools from the operation of the Equality Tribunal and the equality legislation. I say so in particular because of the question of the sexual abuse of children. I am in receipt of material from victims of the situation who do not know whether they still have criminal records.
I will end with this, which is from a victim in this situation:
[These children] were not given a basic minimum education, or proper moral, intellectual and social guidance. ... Their parents were not respected nor helped to provide a family life for their children who were taken from them. ... In their recent attempts to rectify these wrong doings, the Religious Orders, the Department of Education and Science, the Department of Health and Children, Ireland and the Attorney General, have all failed to make discovery of documents, notes, records or memoranda in their possession, thus undermining any possibility of abuse victims getting true justice.
The person further states that this applies to records of detention, case histories, and continues:
Reformatory and Industrial School records and other documents are missing or have deliberately been 'lost'.
So too have details of children being put into care, copies of court proceedings and correspondence from the next of kin.
Medical records are missing, including dental records, hospital attendance and inspections by doctors of institutions.
[As a result] details of complaints against any member of the Religious Orders, lay staff, child minders or gardeners, regarding allegations of abuse are missing.
Similarly, complaints in relation to corporal punishment have not been made available and in most cases have not been preserved.
There has not been any submission to the Ryan Commission or any fully enforced request for this, of accounts of money paid by the State to the Religious Orders for work in institutions and how it was dispersed.
This comes, not from me but from agonised victims. They feel strongly that they have, once again, been let down by the State because of the absence and destruction of records. They are not informed even whether they have a criminal record because, as small children, sometimes under the age of criminal responsibility, they were placed by the State in institutions. They deserve an answer to that, just as I hope we will get an answer on the thorny question of the ethos.
Perhaps the Minister would address also the issue of ethos. It is intolerable that it would be legally permissible for an upstanding citizen, a teacher like me, legally to be fired because of his or her sexual orientation. I know the case history on this. It was not on this island where there has not been such a case but in Scotland where the precedent lies. I had complaints against me in Trinity College on one occasion, but not as a teacher because I was good at my job. The Minister knows that what happened in this case is intolerable. I know it is, too, which is why I ask her to address the issue of ethos.
Déirdre de Búrca (Green Party)
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I welcome the Minister to the House and thank her for coming again to participate in this debate on education. This is her second time in the House in the past two weeks and it is appreciated.
Education is an important issue. As we are all aware, there have been many crises in the educational system of late due to the rapid population growth and the influx of people of different ethnic and national backgrounds, which puts a certain pressure on the traditional model of educational provision in this country.
There are a few points I want to raise with the Minister, some of which I raised on the previous occasion she was in the House but which are important and need to be emphasised. The greatest challenge for this country is the provision of new schools and the upgrading of existing schools, and that comes down to the issue of adequate funding. In the programme for Government we have made a commitment to invest €4.5 billion in providing new schools and improving existing ones. That is a clear commitment for which the Green Party pushed strongly. We saw the need to respond to the demand for educational facilities in this country. However, I acknowledge that we are facing into difficult budgetary conditions and the Green Party must lend its support to the Minister in negotiating for and advocating the provision of that level of funding.
Education is a priority area. One of the most basic commitments in the Constitution is to provide for free primary school education for all our children and it is unacceptable that we cannot do so because of a lack of facilities for which there is a clear need. The Green Party will support the Minister in ensuring the education sector gets the type of funding committed to it in the programme for Government, within the difficult budgetary situation we face.
My second point concerns the necessity for proper planning and information exchange between local authorities and the Department of Education and Science on the provision of new schools, both in terms of identifying and securing sites and the building programmes. We have made a commitment in the programme for Government to establish a developing areas unit in the Department of Education and Science to liaise with the local authorities to identify where new schools are needed and to ensure they are delivered in the fastest possible timeframe. I would encourage the Minister to ensure that unit is up and running as effectively as possible. The exchange of information is a two-way flow. I am aware in the development plan guidelines for local authorities there is also a requirement that local authorities would liaise with the Department and provide it with information, which the Department cannot access otherwise, of areas of population growth within their jurisdictions. This two-way flow of information will ensure we are aware, in advance, of the likely areas of population growth and we will be able to plan both the identification and securing of sites and the building of schools so that they are delivered along with the housing and other development that occurs in these areas.
Another issue touched on in the programme for Government, and one on which I would be interested in hearing the Minister's view, is the commitment made to improve the arrangements for acquiring sites for schools. On the previous occasion she was in the House, the Minister acknowledged that this is a serious problem because the price of land, usually in areas of rapid population growth, is at a premium and it is difficult for the Department of Education and Science to afford the prices and often must enter into negotiations with local landowners and so on. The issue of cost is a major consideration for the Department in terms of the provision of schools.
I suggest to the Minister that the issue of empowering the State to compulsorily purchase land for the provision of school sites would be considered by the Government because while in some developments it may be possible to negotiate with developers and have the developer provide a site as part of an overall integrated development plan, in some cases it is not. There would be strong public support for the State to intervene in such situations. The all-party Oireachtas committee that examined the implementation of the Kenny report was of the view that no changes to the Constitution were necessary to implement the provisions of that report. The Kenny report sought to empower local authorities to be able to purchase land at agricultural prices plus 25%. I would argue that the same provision could be used by the State to compulsorily purchase land for the provision of essential educational facilities that cannot otherwise be provided.
Another issue I want to raise with the Minister — we mentioned it on a previous occasion — is the need for the designation of more strategic development zones. We are all aware of the success of the Adamstown model. It was one of the three strategic development zones identified in the Planning and Development Act 2000, the others being in Fingal — Hansfield — and in Navan. There are areas of intensive population growth throughout the country and perhaps that should be re-examined. The success in the Adamstown model of building a school within a ten month period and ahead of schedule is something that should be available to other areas of similar population growth, albeit perhaps not as large as the Adamstown site which was more than 200 hectares. These strategic development zones should become part and parcel of the way we do our planning.
Another issue is the ability of local authorities to oblige developers to fund the provision of new schools. Under the local authorities development contribution scheme, there are many works in respect of which local authorities can implement development levies on developers. They are usually carried out by local authorities — parks, playgrounds and so on. Unfortunately, as matters stand, section 48 of the Planning and Development Act does not allow the local authority to oblige developers to fund educational facilities. I ask the Minster to examine the possibility of having that section of the Act amended to ensure local authorities are in a position to require developers, as part of development contribution schemes, to make contributions towards the development of new educational facilities as part of any developments they carry out.
In the programme for Government we have made a commitment to ensure new schools are designed for multi-purpose use. That should be encouraged because there are many possibilities for school buildings to be used outside of school hours for community groups and other purposes. Will the Minister indicate if that has been factored in to the design of new schools?
Senator O'Toole referred to the policy of tumoideachais about which there is a great deal of concern. I am aware the Minister is keen to see some English language education introduced at an early stage in the Gaelscoileanna but the Gaelscoil community has requested that this decision be at least deferred until adequate research has been carried out. The international research indicates that young children are very versatile and have an amazing capacity for language acquisition and that the exposure to two or three languages simultaneously does not take from their abilities to acquire any one of those languages. It is a very well thought out policy and one that is considered vital to proper immersion in the Irish language in terms of the service the Gaelscoileanna provide. Will the Minister defer that decision at least until sound research into the policy change has been carried out?
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister back to the House. In many ways the Minister for Education and Science and her Department have failed our children; I outlined some of those failures in my previous contribution some weeks ago. The lack of planning regarding the provision of first and second level schools throughout the country, but particularly in the growth areas such as north Dublin, Dublin 15, Kildare and Meath, is a scandal. The net effect of current Government policy is large class sizes, no places for children until they are five years of age, prefabs instead of proper classrooms and parents being obliged to queue for days and nights in the elements to get their children into the school of their choice. The provision of necessary infrastructure, including the building of schools, must take place in tandem with residential development and the schools must be built before the houses are occupied. I understand some real progress is being made on that area now, particularly in Fingal, but that must be conditioned in all planning applications. While that is a role for planning authorities, the Department of Education and Science must take ownership of the school planning process within an integrated framework. Governments must provide an education for all the children of Ireland equally and guarantee that no child is denied access to education because of his or her religious beliefs.
Following the unacceptable school crisis this September, some weeks ago we called on the Government to put a motion before this House in Private Members' time to establish a national convention on education involving the education partners, politicians and social partners which should address, among other matters, the management of primary schools in a changing Ireland, enrolment policies, domestic and European equality legislation and the planning and building of schools in new communities. Following that debate, we remain convinced of the merits of such an approach, and I am aware of the Minister's position on that following the debate.
Education is the key to Ireland's future. With our changing society it is vital that proper integration occurs at the earliest possible age. The Balbriggan crisis, caused by poor planning by the Department of Education and Science, was a major setback in that regard. That 95% of the children who were enrolled in the emergency school were black is outrageous and does nothing to facilitate the type of integration that is required in our new multicultural society.
I will refer briefly to the area of third level education. We believe third level education is a right and not a privilege to be bought by a few. That is the reason education is at the core of what the Labour Party refers to as the fair society. We believe everyone deserves a chance to reach his or her full potential, regardless of class or income, not only for that person's own fulfilment but for what that fulfilment ultimately provides to society and for the country as a whole. That is the reason we abolished third level fees in 1996, breaking down barriers for those who had benefited from free second level education but who were then told they could go no further. We believe this is as true of undergraduates studying part time as it is of full-time students and that the continued existence of fees for part-time students is unfair. Part-time fees for all first-time undergraduates should be abolished. Will the Minister consider doing so soon? In many cases, these undergraduates are struggling to keep the show on the road with families, etc. and to recover lost opportunities. Their deserving efforts should be encouraged.
The illiteracy rate of 30% among disadvantaged children is a scandal and must be eradicated. One in three children in disadvantaged areas has serious problems with basic mathematics. There has been no real improvement in standards in recent years and the gap between children in disadvantaged areas and the national average has widened, which is shameful given the amount of money available but wasted in these most affluent of times.
Children have no chance of breaking the cycle of poverty if they cannot read. The national anti-poverty strategy set a target to halve the proportion of pupils with serious literacy difficulties by 2006, but it was not worth the paper it was written on because there was no effective strategy to achieve it. The Labour Party believes that targets must be set and achieved through a series of integrated actions beginning with early intervention, namely, ensuring every child gets at least one year of preschool education. International research shows that children who avail of preschool education do better at every level of education thereafter and in life. Providing it free of charge is the only way to ensure it will occur. I ask the Minister to consider this matter.
By detecting difficulties at an early age and continuing to measure each child's progress through school, we will ensure the necessary supports and interventions are provided so that young people will attain basic skills in school. Smaller classes, ongoing training for teachers, one-to-one programmes, the involvement of parents, use of technology and greater library provision in schools are essential elements in tackling literacy and numeracy problems effectively. Educational opportunity is the most effective way to break intergenerational poverty, which still prevails strongly in our rich little country.
Physical education must be given the prominence it deserves in primary schools. According to figures reported in the media recently, the amount of time children in Irish primary schools spend on PE is unacceptably low when compared with the rest of Europe. In some primary schools, PE is not taught owing to a lack of facilities. In many cases, prefabs have taken over the only play facilities available to schools. This is a significant problem. Lack of time and resources and a culture of placing sport and fitness outside the general curriculum contribute to Irish schools languishing behind their European partners in terms of PE.
The failure to encourage children to exercise regularly and to educate them about the importance of sport and fitness stores up major problems for the future for overall health and well-being. Official figures indicate that there may be as many as 300,000 obese children in Ireland and the situation is not improving. There should be adequate provision for PE in every school because it has become the poor relation.
Swimming is probably the best overall form of exercise for children, but not enough schools have access to pools. Often, schools that can make swimming available are forced into charging children for the privilege. The Labour Party would support any proposal by the Minister to develop a fund specifically for the use of schools which want to include swimming in their PE activities.
We need to provide funding so that schools can upgrade their PE and sporting facilities in association with local sporting bodies where appropriate, as is occurring in some places. Funding should be made available for the provision of specialist sport and physical education teachers for all primary schools, especially in the most underprivileged areas. Physical education is an important area of education.
My opening comments were to the effect that, in many ways, the Minister and the Department have failed our children. Let us not waste time in putting it right. The budget will provide an early opportunity and I look forward to its educational content.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Is mór an t-áthas atá orm a bheith anseo arís ag labhairt i dtaobh cúrsaí oideachais. Ní haon ionadh é go mbíonn suim i gcónaí ag na Seanadóirí i gcúrsaí oideachais, mar go mbaineann siad le gach clann sa tír.
The country has a fortunate quality of education. No matter the side of the political divide on which people are, we would all accept that our education system has helped to create our economy and society, including its proud and confident young people. From speaking to schools and students, much of the credit must go to our quality teachers. I have spent time discussing with other countries their education systems and they are all envious of the high calibre of people we continue to attract into teaching.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The top quartile of leaving certificate students are going into primary teaching, which opens considerable opportunities for young people and ensures the quality of classroom teaching remains at a high level. I am proud of that fact.
It is important for communities to continue to ensure the status of the schoolteacher is respected and that principals, as schools' leaders, are recognised as contributing to communities. This is equally true of people undertaking a higher diploma. Owing to the considerable demand, only those with honours degrees in appropriate subjects are being allowed to take higher diploma courses. This quality underpins teaching and learning, a fact that should be kept to the fore.
We must ensure proper in-service and continuous professional development. Not only do many teachers undertake these in respect of particular subjects and new curricula during school periods, they are constantly upskilling in their own time. This benefits students.
The exact level of learning in primary schools and the standards of literacy and numeracy have been questioned. This year has seen an exciting and non-pressurised development, namely, the introduction of standardised testing. Schools will introduce testing for primary school students nationally at the end of first class or the beginning of second class and at the end of fourth class or the beginning of fifth class. Teachers will be able to identify how children are doing and to use the information for each child's benefit. Teachers will also be able to give the information to parents so that they can understand how their children are doing. It will not be done in a way that will give rise to league tables as there is no question of gathering the information to ensure local newspapers know which children are doing best in which schools.
It is intended that teachers and parents will be part of children's educations. Focused information will be available in respect of disadvantaged schools. We need to know that the money targeted via DEIS — €750 million is a great deal of money — at disadvantaged young people is yielding the basic required results, namely, literacy and numeracy.
Over the years, we have recognised that schools alone cannot solve educational disadvantage, for which reason DEIS and the like include family literacy programmes, provide home-school liaisons, link with wider communities and ensure families are involved. Library projects and the expansion of the parent room initiative in schools are essential. For example, Reading Recovery and Maths Recovery are having real impacts because they are targeted one-to-one programmes. We look forward to seeing similar results. Standardised testing will provide an overview of how children are doing.
We continue to do well internationally and we are looking forward to the next PISA results which are due in December. PISA is an OECD study of maths, science, literacy and how young people are doing. In that regard, the Council of Ministers meeting last week was presented with the figures from comparative studies of each country. We are well up the table on literacy, retention and participation in third level education. On the one hand some will claim we spend less than other OECD countries but on the other the way in which moneys are spent is more targeted. We spend more on our teachers than other OECD countries. It is targeted properly to ensure high quality teaching and learning.
Up to 55% of leaving certificate students go on to third level education, a massive participation rate. The creation of 45,000 additional places in the third level sector over the past several years has opened up many opportunities for young people. If further education is included, seven out of ten students doing the leaving certificate this year will go on to further and higher education. There is no excuse for people as the opportunities are there for them. We must encourage them along the way and people from the more disadvantaged socioeconomic backgrounds who traditionally might not have participated in third level education.
The participation figures for lifelong learning are equally encouraging. Up to 40,000 people are involved in adult education. Many of them are in adult literacy courses. People are breaking down barriers for themselves and have the courage to admit they did not have the opportunity to learn to read and write but they will now take it.
While we are fortunate in what is happening in our education system, we must recognise the challenges ahead. The birth rate is rising and the number of newcomers into the country on a daily basis means the population is growing. We have 4,000 schools, 7 universities, institutes of technology, training colleges, a Garda college and people doing apprenticeships. Just keeping that show on the road is a huge commitment from the taxpayer. This year's education budget is €9 billion, all of it well spent.
Even with that spend, there are challenges with the integration of young people, ensuring young people with special educational needs get the opportunity to reach their potential and ensuring basic facilities and schools for them, particularly in fast-growing population centres. The curriculum must adapt and evolve to ensure we are creating the types of people mentioned by Senator O'Toole and IBEC. One of the values of our education system is that it is broad-based and we do not allow students to focus too early.
This year €540 million will solely be spent on schools. This year alone up to 1,200 schools have school building projects which will create facilities for 17,000 additional students in classrooms. We are meeting this challenge and it is not fair to say the Department failed in this provision. Some 15,000 additional children came into our schools this year. We got it right for 14,950 of them. It is not fair to say that in an area with much movement of young people the system failed. There was a time when houses were built and one could anticipate the need for a school in five years. Instead whole families are moving out of Dublin city to Wexford, Kildare, Meath and north county Dublin looking for spaces in classrooms in junior infants, first class and fourth class.
The Department has good working relationships with local authorities. I recently met with Fingal, Westmeath and Kildare local authorities, setting out the Department's needs for next year and the future and how we want the development of schools to go in tandem with new housing estates. We had a good meeting with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to examine what legislative changes may be needed to ensure proper planning for facilities in tandem with new housing in the interests of communities.
School buildings design is not only green — they have been recommended for green awards — but, particularly in the Fingal local authority area, it allows them to be used by local communities because they have enhanced PE and meeting room facilities. Compulsory purchases are being examined but it must be remembered that it may not be cheaper and can be a long process. We are at the stage where we have an immediate need for sites for schools. This must be the priority for the building programme for the next year. Thousands of schools have great expectations for accommodation but my priority must be to provide schools in areas where there are children but no schools.
We want proud and confident young people who are adaptable and flexible to the changing circumstances they find themselves in and caring and kind members of society. Our broad curriculum achieves this. Senator O'Toole was probably part of the formation of the new curriculum which is being rolled out in our primary schools. On top of the broad curriculum, there are subjects at second level, such as CSPE and SPHE, referred to by Senator O'Reilly, which are critically important in the overall holistic development of the young person.
Along with curriculum subjects, the junior certificate programme and the applied leaving certificate, which is opening doors to young people of various different backgrounds and abilities, I would place as much emphasis on extra-curricular activities. That is where the grinds schools lose out. The grinds schools focus solely on academic achievement, which is important in an education system. So too, however, is participation in sport, music, work experience, social work and the other elements that go to make wholly rounded people.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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That is why the Department does not support grinds schools. The league tables in yesterday's newspapers did not give an indication of the type of education young people receive in grinds schools. The top 15 schools that sent their students to UCD were in south County Dublin. Where is UCD? South County Dublin. The top 15 schools that sent their students to NUI Maynooth were all based in the Kildare-Meath area. In the case of University of Limerick, 13 of the 15 top schools were in Limerick, while the remaining two were in Galway and north Tipperary. Geography has as much to do with which college young people attend. The socioeconomic background also has an impact. It has nothing to do with whether a student is in a fee-paying or non-fee-paying school. It is a dreadful disservice to all schools for these league tables to concentrate on 300 students on a selective basis when there are 40,000 young people going into third level education this year.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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All schools must be inclusive and induce young people with special educational needs and different backgrounds.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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That is the best way to achieve societal mix with understanding and challenge.
To everyone dealing in disadvantaged areas, the expectations of young people should be as high as they are in the Dún Laoghaire constituency. Too many young people tell me their parents and teachers do not expect anything of them. If one does not expect it of them, they will not perform. As a community, we must ensure they feel challenged to reach their potential.
There is also the challenge of young people with special educational needs. Up to 17,000 people are employed in our schools to work with young people with special needs. That is a sea change in the support given to these young people. It is not all right and perfect. We still have much more to do but that indicates the progress made, for example, a child with a learning difficulty has automatic access to a resource teacher in his or her school, and there are more than 270 units for autistic children around the country, 75 of which were set up in the past year. I thank the schools for helping us meet that challenge, and the parents for their commitment to getting the best for their children.
Bhí caint anseo faoin tumoideachas. Tá sé deacair labhairt faoi seo mar go bhfuil sé ag dul ós comhair na cúirte. I expect every school in the country to teach Irish ón tús. Iarraim ar ghach scoil, is cuma cá bhfuil siad, cén cúlra atá acu, nó an bhfuil siad sa chathair nó faoin tuath, a ndualgas a chomhlíonadh — tá seo leagtha amach sa churaclam — agus Gaeilge a mhúineadh do na paistí. Equally it states that from the beginning that children should be educated in the two languages. It is public policy that all schools should teach Irish and English to all children. If I thought the Irish language would suffer as a result I would not do this. Parents educated to the highest level send their children to schools such as Scoil Lorcáin in my constituency which is well-established and has a strong socio-economic background so the standard is high as it is in the surrounding schools. There are, however, gaelscoileanna in areas where the children have neither Béarla nor Gaeilge ag teacht isteach. There are children in disadvantaged areas who do not have language skills and we cannot deny those children the Béarla ón tús. That is why it is a matter of public policy. I cannot speak about the Protestant schools because that issue is before the courts but I met with them.
Who would have thought five years ago that there would be 1,800 teachers doing nothing other than teaching English to newcomers?
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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When will the Minister commence the sections of the Education for People with Special Educational Needs Act?
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator wish me to return to special education?
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I have only 15 minutes to speak.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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When will the sections of the Education for People with Special Educational Needs Act be implemented?
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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They will be introduced. I cannot possibly comment on all topics.
It could not have been anticipated that there would be 1,800 teachers teaching only English in our schools. If all of those teachers had been deployed to reduce class sizes there would be approximately 15 children in a class but we had to prioritise. If all the teachers dealing with children with special needs had been deployed to reduce class size the same would be true. These were our priorities and continue to be. Guidelines have been issued to help the integration of young people in primary and post-primary schools. All of our information is published in a variety of languages. Assessment kits for learning have been distributed to the schools. There are however cultural differences. That is why I take the point about the importance of ensuring that the families and parents have English too so that they can understand what is happening within the schools. They are participating, particularly in Dublin, in many adult education courses.
Our schools depend on leadership and good teaching but in recent months the boards of management in primary schools have changed. One of the greatest contributions to civic society is the voluntary activity on boards of management throughout the country. I thank all the people who give their time and expertise to their local schools. We could not possibly manage the 4,000 schools in the country, over 3,200 of which are primary schools, without that voluntary commitment. I appreciate the way in which these people willingly offer their services.
The leaving certificate is an objective independent examination. It would not be possible to run it twice a year. It costs approximately €64 million to run and the fees come to approximately €8 million. It starts at Easter with the oral and practical exams, proceeds to the written exams in June and the results come out in the middle of August. There is an appeals system and appeals on the appeals which do not end until October. It is a long process involving approximately 100,000 students, plus the supervisors, correcters, etc. It is a fair system and we are gradually ensuring that there is a second assessment point in several subjects, whether by way of oral or practical exams.
The points system is also objective. The pressure people put on students to get grinds is unnecessary when one realises that this year one could get into an arts course on 346 points. It is a valuable course, which I did, as I am sure did many Senators. One can get into a science course on 338 points, and business and commerce on 427 points. One can enter an undergraduate honours degree course in the Dublin Institute of Technology on 210 points. There is something available for everbody.
There has been significant pressure on medical courses but we have made good progress and I hope that we will have a combination of points and an aptitude test for entry to these courses to ensure that we recruit people who have the necessary skills to do medicine and not those who drift in because they know they will get 600 points. I must keep repeating that there will be no interview because there is a view abroad that there will be. Ireland is too small for interviews which would become a question of who knew whom, and whose father or mother was a doctor. That cannot be part of the process. I am grateful for the co-operation of the universities in trying to implement this new system to whose early introduction I look forward.
I apologise for taking up so much time but there is a great deal that I could say on this subject. Suffice it to say that we will tackle as many as possible of the challenges facing education, within the framework of the budget. The programme for Government, the national development plan and Towards 2016 are conditional on the budget and I must fit into that framework too. I am planning on the basis that 100,000 extra children will enter our schools. To provide the same service for extra children will cost a great deal more, which restricts the amount of additional or new projects I can undertake in the immediate future. If we can continue to do for more people the good work we are doing at the moment we will maintain a strong education system of which we can all be justifiably proud, recognising challenges but that will create the type of confident society we all want.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I wish to share my time with Senator McFadden, by agreement.
I welcome the Minister to the House and thank her for her comprehensive reply. I do not want this debate to degenerate into politics.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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As a teacher, however, I have to say that there is a great deal of frustration and angst among teachers about integration which requires urgent attention. I take the Minister's point about this but the policy does not work. I was in a classroom last year with 15 students, ten Irish and five from elsewhere and it was completely frustrating.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Did the Senator have only 15 pupils in his class? That was a small class.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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It was a bottom stream class. I was lucky.
Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should thank the Government.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Colleagues of mine teach examination subjects to classes of 35 and 33. They are in a much worse situation.
I wish to push on, however, and make a few points.
1:00 am
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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There was a debate on the National Educational Psychological Service in the other House yesterday. Mental health is a subject close to my heart because I am involved with COPE foundation in Cork. There has been a significant increase in the number of children identified with autism, Asperger's syndrome and other pervasive developmental disorders. We need to consider this issue here. Successive task force reports have stated that the projected full-strength NEPS is insufficient to meet all needs for assessment, treatment or specialisation. The task force on autism commissioned by the Department following the Sinnott case in the High Court is a case in point. Those involved in NEPS do great work. There is an over-reliance on the psychological services of the Health Service Executive, HSE, and voluntary bodies to conduct assessments and interventions. The difficulty is that these bodies have no automatic right of entry into schools or access to teachers and school reports.
The Brothers of Charity in Cork operate a regional assessment clinic but despite their best intentions there is a waiting list of 18 to 24 months. While another assessment team is planned for 2008 it is difficult to see a significant reduction in the number of children with autism and autism related disorders awaiting assessment. Last week, at the conference of the Psychological Society of Ireland, a paper was presented containing the opinions of teachers on the National Educational Psychological Service and, in the main, the findings were positive regarding the work conducted by individual psychologists with pupils. However, negative comments were made regarding difficulty accessing the service, too many demands on psychologists and a general lack of educational psychologists. I ask that the Minister reply to us on this matter, although I know she will say there is a scheme for commissioning private assessments and that more than €2 million has been allocated to it. To my mind that scheme does not represent value for money for pupils, teachers and the education system as a whole.
Senator O'Toole referred to class sizes and the building programme and the Minister mentioned that 1,200 school building projects are under way at the moment. I ask that she prioritise the construction of a new school in Rochestown in my constituency of Cork South-Central. This is a large area of Cork city that has a growing population and while Senator Ryan referred to Dublin 15, this area of Cork city has similar needs and I ask the Minister to prioritise it. Can the Minister give details of the budget for schools building projects in 2008?
Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator Buttimer because I know he has much to say and I appreciate the time he has given me. I also thank the Minister and I will keep my contribution short by speaking specifically about projects in Athlone.
I acknowledge the investment Athlone has received, especially Our Lady's Bower in Summerhill which the Minister visited to open a science building. I met her on that occasion and I appreciate the money which has been contributed. Athlone community college is the school dearest to my heart as I was a member of the vocational education committee, VEC, and chairman of the board of management. Last year we received an undertaking that a new school would be built after we received a fire certificate from the fire officer and conducted a feasibility study on its necessity. The project seems to have stalled, however, and last week, after much delay, we realised there is an issue regarding the size of the school. The chief executive officer held a meeting with officials of the Department of Education and Science on the inadequacy of the size as we are trying to cater for 1,000 pupils. The plans drawn up by the Department are far smaller than those initially anticipated and I ask the Minister to investigate this impasse.
We have a site and have bought the old swimming pool from the council so everything is ready to proceed. We were very disappointed because when the Minister's officials met the CEO and school principal last week, they had a completely different agenda and wished to discuss another matter which I would like to discuss with the Minister in private. I do not know what is happening on this matter now and I ask the Minister to investigate the situation.
We have all spoken of commuter belts and Killucan is in the Westmeath commuter belt. The national school in the town has acquired a four-acre greenfield site because the existing building is completely inadequate for the expanding number of pupils it faces. Various pieces of land in the area have received planning permission. I know the Minister has had a meeting with the county manager so I ask her to expedite both projects I have mentioned. I acknowledge the amount of money the Minister is already spending.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire agus tréaslaím léi as an sár obair atá á dhéanamh aici sa Roinn Oideachais agus Eolaíochta. This debate has been conducted almost entirely in a non-partisan fashion and I am not one to beat the party drum. Half the time I am not on message.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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As a member of Fianna Fáil I am proud of the record of my party in education historically, going back to the days of Donogh O'Malley and Seán Moylan, and especially in the past five to ten years. This applies very much to the current Minister for Education and Science who has been very successful in her brief. I was staggered by the statistics I came across when researching this debate and I will share them with the House.
Investment in education is three times what it was in 1997, the school building and renovation programme is five times larger than in 1997, the primary capitation grant has almost trebled and school transport investment has more than trebled. This investment has clearly yielded results because access to higher education for 17 to 19 year olds has risen significantly since 1998. The most recent figures relate to 2004 so I anticipate very favourable figures for more recent years when they become available. Various socio-economic groups, including the unskilled sector and other sectors, have achieved a greater level of access to third level education. This is a significant fact and any party would be proud to have it in its manifesto.
I was a teacher for 20 years — the Cathaoirleach will be interested to know I spent a year in the faithful county — before I had to give up teaching to take over a family business commitment. I have three sons who have gone through the education system and as someone who has been very involved in school management in more recent times through the vocational education committee, I believe the education system in this country is second to none. Nothing is perfect and there are flaws but I believe more people are accessing higher levels of education today than at any other time. If the Celtic tiger achieved anything it was investment in the future of our young people.
The litmus test facing any society is how it cherishes those who most need help and I am old enough to remember a time when slow learners were hidden away as an embarrassment. We are now going in the right direction and I have statistics in this regard but I will not go into them.
Many teachers are frustrated when they hear the pupil-teacher ratio is improving. There are more teachers but it is little comfort to a teacher with a big class to know four or five special needs assistants in the school may withdraw one, two or three of his or her pupils on a regular basis. He or she will face a big group regardless. I note the Minister's commitment to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio by 2011 and I hope this can be accelerated because large classes still exist in certain schools and this matter must be examined.
I am reluctant to stray into the area of gaelscoileanna for a number of reasons, most pertinently because of an ongoing issue on which I do not wish to comment. All I will say is that I respect Senators O'Toole and de Búrca but my instincts lie strongly with the Minister. I do not think the debate is sufficiently in the open. The people behind gaelscoileanna are motivated by a love of the Irish language but they make up a formidable group with a strong publicity and propaganda machine behind it. The Minister clearly gave her rationale in one or two sentences today and I share it.
It may be time for a debate on how successful the gaelscoileanna have been in terms of their raison d'être of promoting the Irish language. Have any independent studies been undertaken to show whether the advent of gaelscioleanna has meant the language is ag eirí níos treise or, alternatively, declining? Has there been a negative knock-on effect, for example, in the mainstream primary level teaching of Irish? If gaelscoileanna are not leading to an increase in usage of the language, thus safeguarding its survival, they merely represent an alternative educational choice for parents who prefer their children to remain separate from the mainstream. I may be on dangerous ground in asking such questions. A debate on this issue is due.
The Minister initiated the north Kerry education development plan, which was greatly welcomed by all involved in education as an important initiative. It seems to be losing impetus, however, and may require an enhanced initiative. The person overseeing the programme is a Listowel man and eminent educator. I hope there will be further consultation with parents before any decision is made by the trustees of the various schools. I am particularly concerned about the future of St. Joseph's secondary school in Balyybunion, which may be vulnerable. The role of the VEC in Kerry must be safeguarded. VEC schools are often the poor relation when it comes to amalgamations and rationalisation programmes. They may not have the power of some other schools but it is important that there be public accountability at all levels in the education system.
I have brought the Minister's attention to Dromclough national school, whose 190 pupils, eight teachers and three special needs assistants are waiting some time for a technical team to decide whether they will be granted a new school or a renovation. I understand a new school has been agreed in principle and I ask the Minister to take a personal interest in what is an excellent school with an outstanding principal.
A principal of another school in Kerry asked me to point out that there has been a universally positive response to the new T4 technical drawing programme. The Minister has endowed it with grants for equipment, furniture and so on. The only problem seems to be a deficit in accommodation. If a room has to be designated for technical drawing, there does not seem to be sufficient funding to make up the balance other than through the provision of prefabricated accommodation.
Reference was made earlier to the notion of a philosophy of education. This is something the Minister might debate with us on another occasion. I was educated in St. Michael's College, a small secondary school in Listowel.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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We studied a seven-subject syllabus, including Latin and Greek. There was no art, music or career guidance, but our education incorporated a human element, even in mathematics, which I suspect is lacking these days. This system produced people such as John B. Keane, Bryan McMahon, Brendan Kennelly, George Fitzmaurice and Maurice Walsh.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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That did not happen by chance. However, our educational philosophy seems to be based now on a utilitarian approach, or the murder machine, mar a dúirt an Piarsaigh.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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For those students wishing to pursue a career in politics, we will have to install time pieces in schools.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for exceeding my time.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Ba bhreá liom i dtosach báire fáilte a chuir roimh an Aire. Ba léir ó bheith ag éisteacht léi go bhfuil barr-feabhas bainte amach aici. Tá máistreacht aici ar gach rud a bhaineann le cúrsaí oideachais sa tír. Ní ionann é sin agus a rá go bhfuil an ceart aici an t-am ar fad, nó ag an Rialtas. Glacaim leis go ndúirt sí an-chuid atá thar a bheith ciallmhar. Ba bhreá liom labhairt faoi trí ábhar san am atá agam. I dtosach báire, ba mhaith liom labhairt mar gheall ar maoiniú na scoileanna dara-leibhéal. Ina dhiaidh sin, labhróidh mé faoi ceist stúiriú agus pátrúnacht sa chóras bunscolaíochta.
I note the Minister's comment that while we may be spending less on education than other OECD countries, the spend is more focussed. However, it is a cause for concern that the figure of 4.6% of GDP places us last out of 30 OECD states. Secondary level education, for example, must be given the priority it deserves. The establishment of the new post-primary education forum is to be welcomed. Part of its brief is to lobby for increased funding and I wish it well in this.
It is time to speed up the process of equalisation of State funding as between community, comprehensive and VEC schools, on the one hand, and voluntary secondary schools, on the other. Almost 60% of second level students attend 400 voluntary secondary schools. Considerable measures have been put in place to bridge the gap, with certain equalisation measures included in the school services support fund that are exclusive to voluntary secondary schools. The gap persists, however, and that is an affront to the right of parents to make choices about the type of secondary school their children attend. It is a long time since the report of the steering group on the funding of second level education, which called for the payments of grants to all voluntary secondary schools to meet the costs of insurance, secretaries, caretakers and cleaning and repairs. It is scandalous that there is not equalisation of funding. I acknowledge an interest in that I am involved in the governance of 100 voluntary secondary schools through the CEIST network. It is a just cause and I hope that parity will be established in the forthcoming budget.
Ba mhaith liom labhairt mar gheall ar an tumoideachais. Aontaím le mo chomhleacaithe, an Seanadóir O'Toole, ach b'fhéidir go rachfainn níos faide. It is too simple to make a comparison between the teaching of Irish and English, because tá an Béarla buanaithe sa tír ar bhealach nach bhfuil an Ghaeilge. Glacaim go bhfuil an rud go hindíreach os comhair na cúirte. Molaim don Aire nach bhfuil sé ró-dhéanach dul ar thóir taighde. Ba cheart don Aire an taighde a dhéanamh mar a mholadh di.
Gaelscoileanna will be pleased to accept whatever results a study would show. It is important to note that although the Department of Education and Science is the paymaster, it is not its function to be excessively in control of how educational services are delivered for the various communities that require them. International research shows there is no disadvantage to pupils in an immersion approach for a period of some years. It is important that research should be undertaken in this State. It would take some two years to gather and it should be done. In the absence of such research, we are operating on the basis of ideology and people will not understand or accept the decision that has been made. Postgraduate research from NUI Galway indicates that the standard of English is higher in these schools. People are willing to accept the outcome of whatever study is done. Bheadh sé níos fearr an taighde a dhéanamh ná an lámh láidir a úsáid.
Members may be familiar with the story of the United States politican who smeared an opponent by suggesting he had a child out of wedlock. "I know it ain't true", the slanderer said, "but I want to see the son of a gun get up there and deny it".
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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He may not have said "gun" but that is the word I prefer to use in this House. There has been more than a whiff of that strategy in the air as certain politicians tried to up the ante in the debate about school patronage and the governance of primary schools. I am concerned by the language from experienced elected representatives and from other quarters. The shortage of school places in Balbriggan meant that an emergency school had to be opened to cater for some 100 non-Irish, non-Catholic, mostly African children. The difficulty here was the shortage of school places. This was a planning issue arising from the concentration of people in that area, for which there were specific reasons in terms of housing that was accessible to the State, and the failure to plan ahead for schooling needs. The central issue, therefore, was planning, but it has turned into a case of attacking the enrolment policies of denominational schools. This is intolerant, unprofessional and unacceptable. I have been concerned about unhelpful comments regarding baptismal certificates, for example, being used as pass books. This is basically attempting to run one agenda on the back of another. It is true the issue is integration but it is clear that denominational schools have an excellent record in the integration of what have been called the new Irish.
I disagree respectfully with Senators O'Toole and Norris in their constant emphasis on this issue of ethos and the protections available for denominational schools under the law. It is ironic that there is disagreement with the Department of Education and Science about the refusal to allow Protestant schools to interview. I agree with the criticism because it is a necessary part of respecting denominational school and I would worry that the Department is putting person management ahead of the right of schools to determine whether particular people are suitable for a teaching post.
If we are to criticise, we should acknowledge at least that it is out of respect for parental choice for a certain type of schooling that denominational educators are entitled to protect their ethos. I encourage the Minister not to cede to the voices which carp against the right of schools to so protect their ethos. The parents who send their children to those schools consciously are taxpayers as well.
Although it is desirable for the Department to respect individual and different types of providers of education, and facilitate them rather than control them too much, it is nonetheless very important we continue to promote an attitude among parents and throughout the community. It is important to promote attitudes of inclusiveness. We hear anecdotal reports of people travelling distances each morning to take their children to schools where there are fewer immigrant children. That is something to be deplored. Respecting parental choice does not mean we should not encourage people to take an inclusive approach to integration in education. The caveat is that if parents feel the quality of education will be lower because many of the students in the schools do not have English, such students will not be brought along. That is the best argument for continued increased investment in English language learning skills for our new Irish within our mainstream schooling system.
Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senators for their contributions. I always enjoy coming to the Seanad because of the genuine interest here. I had not quite realised there are so many new Senators with backgrounds in education but I am sure their aim will be to make a positive contribution and not just keep me on my toes.
Two issues were new. The first concerned the National Educational Psychological Service, which is very valuable. The Government set this up in 1999 and all schools have access to psychological assessments. It is important to point out not all children require a psychological assessment to be able to get additional resources because every school in the country has resource teachers at primary level. That is important.
The recruitment process for this year took longer than anticipated and the panel then became exhausted. It became difficult to recruit people for certain areas around the country but the new process began and was closed on 25 October. Short-listing and interview will now take place. The process was slower than I would have liked this year but it is in hand.
Más féidir liom dul ar ais go dtí an tomoideachais, tógadh an taighde ocht mbliana. One would have to begin with the child coming into junior infants. There is an acceptance that there may be a gap in the middle years between the standard of English and Irish as against children in other schools, but they would catch up in sixth class. I do not believe it appropriate that any child should be behind another in those intervening years. Thógadh an taighde ocht mbliana. Any international research on this is inconclusive and I am not sure there would be any conclusions.
It is just a matter of policy but I remain committed to the Irish language and ensuring our schools in particular promote the Irish language at all levels. Mar is eol do dhaoine, rinne mé chuid oibre maidir leis an Ardteistiméireacht by changing the focus on to the oral Irish in the leaving certificate examination, which would make a significant contribution to the teaching and learning of Irish.
I will never do anything a dhéanfadh aon dochar don Ghaeilge sna bunscoileanna, meánscoileanna nó na gaelscoileanna. Is beag Aire eile atá chómh báúil don Ghaeilge is atá mé fhéin. Beidh daoine i mo dhiadh nach mbeidh chomh báúil. Caithfidh mé féachaint ar an gcuraclam ina iomlán, sna scoileanna i gcoitinne. Ba chóir dóibh go léir an curaclam iomlán a chur i bhfeidhm. I thank the Senators and the Cathaoirleach for their courtesy.
Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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At 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 28 November 2007.