David Norris (Independent)

I thank Senator O'Toole for sharing his time because he is an expert in this area and would like to make a longer contribution. I am grateful to him. I also welcome the Minister.

Since we started this morning on the Order of Business with an outburst of good news from all sections, let us look at some good news. In my case, I draw attention to the fact that my old university, Trinity College, for the first time entered the first 60 universities in the world. This is a significant achievement for a small island such as ours and I am very proud of that. I am even prouder that DCU entered the first 200 and that is a terrific achievement for this relatively new university.

I also support those who have spoken about the question of the Irish research electronic library initiative. It would be scandalous if, as Senator O'Toole has alleged, it is the universities that are mean-mindedly excluding the DIT. If that is so, as a university representative I do not stand over it.

I have two slightly thorny issues which the Leader directed me to raise here. The first is the question of the four Protestant schools who are in contention. I realise there is a court case, but I want to lay out a couple of ideas in this debate. It seems there is a problem, especially with regard to lack of consultation. The Minister is shaking her head but the reason I say this is because they were bundled together with a group which apparently did not represent their point of view. The Irish School Heads Association, ISA, stated before the negotiations that it did not wish to accept this and that it would not take it on board, but it does not enjoy negotiating rights.

I find difficulty in anything to do with ethos. I really hesitate in such matters. I had great difficulty even with the Adelaide Hospital issue. I supported their position for certain clearly defined reasons and do so in this matter as well because it seems appropriate for a school to be allowed an interview to ensure the teachers fit in. It also respects the teachers.

Some of the schools that have closed, such as Greendale community school, were excellent. I have met the teachers from that school. It is not respectful simply to redeploy them willy-nilly and put them into schools that are hesitant about employing without the teachers undergoing an interview. It is not a sectarian matter. For example, I go to St. Patrick's grammar school every Sunday. Some of the boys, who are not only in the school but sing in the choir, are not members of the Church of Ireland. They are Roman Catholic. Therefore, it cannot be a sectarian matter. It is a question of bullying.

It was stated on radio that this question of protecting an ethos, which is a difficult and sensitive area for a variety of reasons, would be cast aside in the interests of the question of pay. In other words, money was more important. I wonder whether that is true.

In the light of this attitude towards the Protestant schools, I ask the Minister to look again at the exemption of all the religious schools from the operation of the Equality Tribunal and the equality legislation. I say so in particular because of the question of the sexual abuse of children. I am in receipt of material from victims of the situation who do not know whether they still have criminal records.

I will end with this, which is from a victim in this situation:

[These children] were not given a basic minimum education, or proper moral, intellectual and social guidance. ... Their parents were not respected nor helped to provide a family life for their children who were taken from them. ... In their recent attempts to rectify these wrong doings, the Religious Orders, the Department of Education and Science, the Department of Health and Children, Ireland and the Attorney General, have all failed to make discovery of documents, notes, records or memoranda in their possession, thus undermining any possibility of abuse victims getting true justice.

The person further states that this applies to records of detention, case histories, and continues:

Reformatory and Industrial School records and other documents are missing or have deliberately been 'lost'.

So too have details of children being put into care, copies of court proceedings and correspondence from the next of kin.

Medical records are missing, including dental records, hospital attendance and inspections by doctors of institutions.

[As a result] details of complaints against any member of the Religious Orders, lay staff, child minders or gardeners, regarding allegations of abuse are missing.

Similarly, complaints in relation to corporal punishment have not been made available and in most cases have not been preserved.

There has not been any submission to the Ryan Commission or any fully enforced request for this, of accounts of money paid by the State to the Religious Orders for work in institutions and how it was dispersed.

This comes, not from me but from agonised victims. They feel strongly that they have, once again, been let down by the State because of the absence and destruction of records. They are not informed even whether they have a criminal record because, as small children, sometimes under the age of criminal responsibility, they were placed by the State in institutions. They deserve an answer to that, just as I hope we will get an answer on the thorny question of the ethos.

Perhaps the Minister would address also the issue of ethos. It is intolerable that it would be legally permissible for an upstanding citizen, a teacher like me, legally to be fired because of his or her sexual orientation. I know the case history on this. It was not on this island where there has not been such a case but in Scotland where the precedent lies. I had complaints against me in Trinity College on one occasion, but not as a teacher because I was good at my job. The Minister knows that what happened in this case is intolerable. I know it is, too, which is why I ask her to address the issue of ethos.