Seanad debates
Tuesday, 27 June 2006
Order of Business.
2:30 pm
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is Nos. 1 and 2. No. 1, the National Sports Campus Development Authority Bill 2006 — Second Stage, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 6 p.m. Spokespersons have 15 minutes and other Senators have ten minutes, with the Minister to be called upon to reply not later than ten minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage. That change was made at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to enable the Minister to have ample time. This time varies from Bill to Bill, sometimes there are not enough speakers and on other occasions there are quite a few.
No. 2, the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2006 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken at 6 p.m. and to conclude not later than 8 p.m. Spokespersons have 12 minutes and other Senators have eight minutes, with the Minister to be called upon to reply not later than ten minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage.
The House is taking five new Bills this week and Senators have asked why we are not meeting on Thursday afternoon to start the debate on the Criminal Justice Bill. Anyone can now get a copy of the Bill and Committee Stage amendments but Report and Final Stages are being taken in the Dáil today and tomorrow and the Bill will be reprinted on Thursday. It would not be available in time for a debate starting on Thursday afternoon.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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We welcome the fact that the House is meeting on Friday to consider the Criminal Justice Bill. My colleague, Senator Cummins, and I had proposed that arrangement in discussions with the Leader's office. It is right that there would be a significant period between Second Stage and Committee and Report Stages to allow an extensive Bill to be examined in detail.
A year before the last general election, the then Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, published an extensive policy on primary health care and gave a firm commitment that by 2005, there would be 60 primary health care centres established to take pressure off acute hospital services. A year later, in 2006, there are ten pilot primary health care centres.
At the last general election in 2002, Fianna Fáil promised that within two years of its return to office, there would be no waiting list for elective surgery. Now, in 2006 there are 20,000 public patients waiting for acute surgery. Is it any wonder we are ranked 25th out of 26 countries with a record of such incompetence? Commitments were made to the Irish people as far back as 2001, with very significant sums being spent on public relations regarding new proposals for the entire country. Neither of the two parties in this Government, if they are still together, can deliver on the commitments it gave five years ago. The legacy the Government will leave will be its incompetence in health.
If there is another lesson to be learned from the report published yesterday, it is that the Department of Health and Children is like Pravda when it comes to giving information to health agencies assessing figures of this nature. The notion that European agencies must go cap in hand to the Department to get information demonstrates the crisis. The Government has been in office for nine years but there have been no dramatic improvements in that time, a legacy of which it should be ashamed.
I refer to No. 12 on the Order Paper, the Defence of Life and Property Bill 2006. I understand that this is not a Government Bill. I also understand that this is not a Progressive Democrats Bill, despite the fact that a majority of the Progressive Democrats Senators in this House put their names to it. When one compares the Bill with the explanatory memorandum, the names are on the Bill but are not on the explanatory memorandum. The Bill was published in June but the explanatory memorandum was published in May, and the explanatory memorandum includes matters which are not in the Bill. Can someone please clear this up for me? Will this legislation, which is moving in the direction of a Fine Gael proposal announced six months ago that was then rubbished by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, whose hand of God, incidentally, would seem to be on this initiative from Senator Morrissey, come before the House before the end of session? I would suggest to the Leader that there is ample opportunity on Thursday afternoon, when she has five hours to give to something, to let us take this Bill. The Progressive Democrats Senators apparently did not see the Bill. It never went through their parliamentary party, according to the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, on today's "News at One". What is going on in this regard? My party certainly welcomes the change of heart, although it should have happened six months ago.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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The report on the health service is really agitating people around the country. The question raised by Senator Brian Hayes needs to be asked. The Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, stated that this report was based on out of date information and the author of the report stated that the Department refused access to information. Somebody must answer for that. It is quite appalling. To the disinterested observer looking at this calmly and unemotionally, we cannot just accept that decision and we should know who took it.
The other issue to be noted from the report, apart from Ireland's appalling results, is that the authors stated quite clearly that in their view the position of public and private sectors working together was the wrong way to go. That supports what the Tánaiste is trying to achieve and she should just go ahead and do it. Second, direct access to consultants was dealt with quite clearly in the report. If we are to use this report, let us use it positively and also ask the questions, move matters forward and get the results we seek.
I rith na seachtaine seo caite, chuireadh tuarascáil nua ar fáil. It related to the state of the Irish language and how it has disimproved. It is well past time we had the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, in here to tell us cad tá go díreach ar siúl aige chun an Ghaeilge a chothú i measc na gnáth daoine. I have stated time and again that his policies are in no way directed towards ordinary people with ordinary problems, ach de réir deamhramh b'fhearr leis a bheith ag dul timpeall na háite ag aistriú ainmneacha áiteanna i gcoinne toill na daoine, upsetting people around the country agus ag chuir breo ar muintir tionscalaíochta na tíre chun tuarascáilí cheann bliana a chuir ar fáil i nGaeilge. These matters might be important, but the real issue is the one I have been raising here since the day I was elected, that we need to support the Gaeltacht. In this situation, we see that there is a threat to the Irish language in Gaeltacht schools and in the Gaeltacht. Although this might be hard to believe, Gaeltacht schools which are dealing with people from all sorts of backgrounds — immigrants, people without Irish who have returned home from other countries, etc. — have a lower pupil-teacher ratio than gaelscoileanna. Gaelscoileanna are entitled to what they have, but it surely is a nonsense that we are not giving support do scoileanna sna Gaeltachtaí, foinse na Gaeilge, áit gur chóir gach tacaíocht a thabhairt do na muinteoirí, tuismitheoirí agus na húdaráis scoileanna. I want the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs to come in here. If he does, I ask the Leader to ask him that, unlike what he did in the other House, he come in with a script and with an idea, which we can discuss and with which he will deal seriously. I ask that he would listen seriously to and engage with our viewpoints. His actions are quite appalling and he is upsetting many people. This Government wonders why it is in trouble. It is because of Ministers running riot like that, upsetting half the industries in the country which are trying to meet his requirements and upsetting Gaeltacht people who do not need to be upset. These are the bushfires around the country that are upsetting this Government.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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It is pleasant to acknowledge that, with the exception of one phrase, I am at one with Senator O'Toole on the Irish language issue.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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Be afraid, be very afraid.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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The Irish language is the property of the people and not the property of one party or even one family. Actions are being taken to advance the image of grandfather reincarnated, which are doing the language great harm. The best thing that could be done is to ensure that in respect of every school atá ag iarraidh múineadh as Gaeilge go bhfuil téacsleabhair ar fáil acu gur féidir a úsáid in ionad an bhrú atá ar scoileanna lán-Ghaelach i ndáiríre sna Gaeltachta ábhair a mhúineadh as Béarla toisc nach bhfuil téacsleabhair as Gaeilge ar fáil acu. It is a simple issue and it would not cost more than it costs the Department of Finance to publish the Estimates as Gaeilge to provide decent textbooks in Irish. Publishers are capable of doing this and it would be a much better use of resources.
It is tempting to say a great deal about the league table, which outlines the abysmal performance of our health service. I would like, however, to discuss an issue I have raised on the Order of Business a few times and about which I have become more and more concerned. I heard the interview recorded by the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children for "Morning Ireland" earlier. She declined to appear on the programme and, instead, chose to go on the "News at One", which has 300,000 fewer listeners. Perhaps somebody can explain that logic if she wants to defend her reforms. The Minister asserted this morning that Ireland is spending as much on its health services as Germany and France.
The top four countries in the league table come as no surprise. The most convincing aspect of the table is that the countries that one knows have a good health service are at the top and, therefore, it is difficult to argue the methodology is wrong. The top four countries spend US$2,800 on average per head while Ireland spends 25% less. One does not have to be a health economist, a liberal market economist or a Marxist economist to realise that is an indicator of a problem. Ireland is trying to rebuild a health service that almost fell apart. The other countries have mature, well developed health services and they are spending enough to keep them running. The Government is trying to say it can provide a world class health service for the people on a budget 25% lower than those of the best health services in the world, which have good hospitals and which do not need the capital investment required here. I am horrified that the Minister for Health and Children informed the public that Ireland spends as much as these countries. Either she does not know or she will not say but not enough is being spent. We need to move away from the eternal incantation of the Minister that it is all about efficiencies and delivery. We should have an efficient health service but it most assuredly is not all about efficiency and, therefore, I would like the Minister to grace us with her presence to explain how she believes enough is being spent on health services.
Another report published recently highlighted, unsurprisingly, that the very rich pay virtually no tax. That is linked to the extraordinary revelation of the salary of the chief executive of one of our two main banks. I would like a debate on the apparent extraordinary quality of our bankers who believe if they are not paid that much, they will be stolen by major international banks. Perhaps Senator Ross can list all the Irish bankers who have emigrated because I am at a loss to recall one.
Shane Ross (Independent)
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None of them has even been offered a job.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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That is what I thought. However, they are being paid——
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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While latitude is given to the party leaders, they should be brief.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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The chief executive of one of our biggest banks is paid three or four times more than the chief executive of Toyota Motor Corporation. Apparently, he believes he is worth it. However, no one has tried to recruit him to go elsewhere. A debate is required as to how a banker can be paid ten times as much as the Taoiseach. This is an issue worthy of political debate. It is a pity the Taoiseach did not mention it in his wide-ranging radio interview last Sunday. It might have challenged a few myths about Ireland.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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I have never heard the Tánaiste give eternal incantations of the nature referred to by the previous speaker, whose name I cannot recall. I refer to Senator Ryan.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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This is why Senator Dardis and I are in different parties.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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However, she has consistently stated——
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senators might yet be together.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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——this country has a requirement to produce a world-class service——
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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—— which has the interest of the patient at its heart. It would be worthwhile for this House to debate this report which was prepared by a private Swedish organisation. I understand it is only the second report of its type, the first being a pilot report on 12 countries. My view, and that of many neutral observers, is that the report contains many inaccuracies. The figures are out of date and it does not take into account initiatives such as the National Treatment Purchase Fund. Moreover, it does not take into account the reduction in the waiting list for cardiac surgery, from several years on the last occasion on which Senator Ryan's party had anything to do with it, to several weeks at present. Hence, one must get the balance right. The only way to so do is to have a proper debate in the House. I am sure that as always, the Tánaiste will be available to speak in such a debate.
It has been repeatedly pointed out that all stakeholders, and not simply the Government, have a role to play in this regard. This point was most forcibly made in a "Prime Time" programme dealing with the matter, or during the "Questions and Answers" programme which was broadcast after it. While the Government has significant responsibilities, which it takes seriously, all stakeholders have a role.
As for the general matter of private Bills which has been raised by Senator Brian Hayes, it is common practice in this House for Members to introduce private Bills. Some succeed in their entirety while others do not. A Bill will be debated tomorrow in Private Members' time. Hence, I do not see anything particularly extraordinary or difficult about Members introducing Private Members' Bills on the floor of the House or their endeavours to get them into law. This happens all the time and is the practice of all parties. I cited one recently, namely, Senator Leyden's Registration of Wills Bill, on which he is to be commended and about which he has been extremely consistent.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Seanadóir.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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Hence, I do not see anything extraordinary or unusual about this matter.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I do not see Senator Dardis's name on the Bill.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Coghlan should speak to the Chair and not across the floor.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Of course.
I wish to raise a matter of serious concern regarding consumer rights. As Members are aware, the consumer strategy group report of May 2005 recommended the establishment of a new national consumer agency. According to the legislative timetable, legislation was due in December 2005 and was meant to be operational by now. However, there is still no sign of this legislation. Moreover, as the Leader is aware, the Investment Funds, Companies and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2006 has been published. Among other matters, it makes provision for the temporary replacement of the Director of Consumer Affairs for a period in excess of six months.
As Members are aware, the former director, Carmel Foley, resigned some time ago to take up a position with the new Garda Ombudsman Commission. She was replaced on an interim basis by a civil servant from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. This appears to be mere lip service as far as the rights of consumers are concerned. Put simply, consumers appear to be a mere afterthought in the policy objectives and legislative priorities of the Government. Surely consumers deserve better. Can the Leader state when the proper and long-promised legislation will be before the House?
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I am sure Senators will join me in offering sincere congratulations to one of our colleagues, Senator Quinn——
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Congratulations are not relevant to the Order of Business. Please stick to the Order of Business.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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It can get out of hand if it is allowed to continue.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I was present at the ceremony and I gave my personal congratulations.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Irish Examiner carries a story today on a proposal by Fine Gael for a register of guardians. I am prepared to consider an amendment to the Bill which is progressing through the House which might expedite its wishes, if it is approved by the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party and the——
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I am discussing the Fine Gael proposal.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the grave situation in Palestine and Israel, will the Leader, the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Taoiseach appeal to the Hamas-led Palestinian Government to return the Israeli soldier kidnapped after the murder or death of two Israeli soldiers? If the soldier is murdered and returned dead to the Israelis, they will launch an onslaught such as was never seen before in the Middle East. It will be a holy war. This is the wrong direction for the Palestinians to take if they want their rights to be fully recognised. Both Israelis and Palestinians have a right to exist, to recognition and to self-determination. This will lead to a serious situation of an eye for an eye. I make this appeal because these proceedings are broadcast on the worldwide web and it may be picked up in the Middle East.
3:00 pm
David Norris (Independent)
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I also heard the Tánaiste on the radio at lunchtime. I was surprised by what she stated because if it were true — and it was challenged in this House — that we spend as much as those countries which received the best results, it seems to highlight an inadequacy as we do not get the same results.
Reference was made to the national treatment purchase scheme, which is a clear indication the system does not work. It is lamentable that we must leave the country to purchase treatment for our own citizens. That cannot be highlighted as a positive aspect in support of the situation. I stated repeatedly it was courageous of the Tánaiste to take on this extremely difficult job. I agree with Senator O'Toole and others who suggested we need to know the facts. Perhaps an outside investigation would be no harm.
I was told, and I assume it is true, that hospital beds are clogged up because people on antibiotic treatment take free leave to wander down to the pub and soak up a few pints, rendering the treatment inefficacious. If this is an urban legend, it is time it was put to bed. However, if it is true it is time action was taken.
I cannot help noticing that all over the city of Dublin, particularly at weekends, ambulances scoop up soporific citizens suffering from nothing other than an over-indulgence in alcohol. We must also examine that situation. Perhaps they need treatment. I am not sure the use of ambulances, which are emergency vehicles, is appropriate in these circumstances.
I wish to refer to a matter concerning another Department, which caused great offence and will cause great concern to all Members of this House. I refer to the recent statement of an eminent person, the Secretary General of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, that asylum seekers and refugees constantly lie through their teeth. That is strong and virulent language.
David Norris (Independent)
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Of more concern, which might even concern those such as my friend from Clare when he disentangles himself from his county councillors, is the Secretary General's suggestion——
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I do not entangle myself with anybody.
David Norris (Independent)
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This is on the Order of Business. The Secretary General implied the Department is routinely ambushed by the courts right up to the point of deportation. The use of the word "ambush" is very interesting and significant. What are the courts for if not to uphold the rights of persons in this country, including citizens? For the Secretary General of the Department responsible for justice to talk about the courts ambushing his officials in their eager chase to deport people should worry every decent Member of both Houses of the Oireachtas.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I would welcome a debate on the Euro Health Consumer Index 2006. The conclusions of this report are hardly a surprise to anybody and we do not need the report to inform us that there are very serious difficulties in the delivery of our health service. The report was written from a consumer perspective and may not take account of some of the strategies being put in place, which have not yet impacted upon the delivery of services to the consumer. However, we need to see change happen much more quickly, particularly in respect of the consultants' contract.
Senator Norris raised the issue of the National Treatment Purchase Fund and stated it was ludicrous that we must go outside the State to buy services. It is ludicrous that we are crossing to the other side of the corridor within the same hospital to buy services. This is where some of the main difficulties arise.
A difficulty arises in respect of the health service building programme. At a parochial level, a development project in County Clare has been sanctioned for over three years but an application for planning permission for the project has yet to be lodged. We need to see greater emphasis on the delivery of projects. Decisions are taken at Government level and moneys are set aside but the implementation is very poor. We should have a debate on service delivery and on how the agencies responsible therefor, in addition to the practitioners, are not doing their job. Until the consultants are taken on, we will not see real change in the delivery of health services.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I plead with the Leader to arrange a debate next week on compensation for beet growers, on which a decision is due in the middle of July. I have no qualms in saying I have no confidence in the Minister for Agriculture and Food on this issue. She has shown herself to have been totally inept in this area from day one despite her having been warned about it in October 2004 when she became Minister. Given that the decision is to be made in the middle of July, there is no point in our debating the matter next September or October. I ask the Leader to try to arrange for a short debate on this very important topic next week to allow the Minister to listen to the views and concerns of Members of all parties.
I do not necessarily share the views expressed in the Euro Health Consumer Index 2006 report and believe the health service is not as bad as it makes out. However, I take two main points from the report, the first of which is that there is a clear problem accessing information. Freedom of information requests and parliamentary questions are not being replied to properly and the HSE is not responding to people. This has been raised at the Joint Committee on Health and Children. The committee wrote to the Minister for Health and Children on the issue and all it got back was a reply stating its request was acknowledged, but not an answer. We need to address the information deficit and if this could be done we would be in a far better position to understand what is going on in the health service. We should consider the situation in Norway, where the authorities increased funding for the health service substantially but got no reward for doing so. Money, therefore, is not necessarily the solution.
We should invite the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Seán Power, to talk to us again about the nursing home charges repayment scheme and the awarding of the contract. I have raised serious concerns about this in the House and they are becoming more serious by the day. An article in today's edition of The Irish Times states KPMG has been awarded the contract. Was it one of the original 11 companies that applied? If not, why did it not apply originally and why was it given the contract? There are serious questions to be asked about this issue, it has delayed the tendering process and we feel the Department and the HSE could have conducted the scheme themselves. The press statement claims there is no delay in the tendering process, yet, a year and a half later, people have still not been paid.
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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Two weeks ago the Joint Committee on Health and Children met with the sudden cardiac death syndrome group, at the group's request. The group is comprised of parents who told us about the deaths of seven young people from sudden cardiac arrest who died within six weeks of each other. The most horrific, heart-rending stories unfolded during that one and a half hour meeting. I ask the Leader to organise a debate on sudden cardiac arrest among young people, particularly in light of another terrible tragedy in Cork last night where a young man of 17 years of age died while playing a game of hurling for his club. There must be greater awareness not only among the public but among members of the medical profession who, according to the members of the group, do not know a great deal about the syndrome.
Last Thursday the Joint Committee on Health and Children had an excellent meeting during which the Secretary General of the Department, Mr. Michael Scanlon, answered every question, including the one Senator Browne wants answered again in the Chamber.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, he did not answer it.
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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It has already been answered for the Senator.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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What he said was that he was happy with it and he gave us no information.
Mary Henry (Independent)
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People are rightly angry, and we should be ashamed, of our position on this league table for the health service in Ireland but at least the report was published. I am even more furious to find that a very serious report has not been published by the Department of Health and Children. Two years ago, the former chief executive officers of the health boards and the Chief Medical Officer, Dr. Jim Kiely, asked for an investigation into the unit for metabolic disorders in Temple Street hospital. The unit screens children from throughout the country for metabolic diseases. It is extremely important that these diseases are picked up in the newborn to prevent serious damage to those children in later life.
Apparently, the report was finalised in 2004. Dr. Philip Mayne, who runs the unit, said there was some communication with him in April 2005 but nothing has happened since. The reports, apparently, expressed disappointment about the governance of the unit, funding, consent, aged equipment and so forth. I do not know if we can debate a report which has not been published but there should not be a person in the House who is not appalled about this problem. Apparently, new-born children throughout the country are not being properly screened and we have been boasting about this for decades. At least we have a published report to examine about the disgraceful situation in the health service, and I do not take any comfort from people saying something about figures being out of date. We might be behind Lithuania if we got the up-to-date figures——
Mary Henry (Independent)
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——but what about a report like this one which has not been published?
Mary Henry (Independent)
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Has anyone any anxiety about that? I would be grateful if the Leader would ask the Tánaiste to come into the House to discuss a report which has not been published. Perhaps she can do something about having this very serious issue investigated.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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Aontaím leis na cainteoirí eile gur chóir dúinn gach tacaíocht agus cabhair a chur ar fáil don Ghaeltacht mar phobal na Gaeilge, agus go mórmhór ó thaobh scolaíochta de. Tá sé seo ciallmhar mar mholadh, agus níl aon amhras faoi ná go mbeadh sé éifeachtach maidir le cur chun cinn na Gaeilge. It is good news that the Irish language debate has moved into positive mode in recent times. We no longer have the debate of years ago about the usefulness of the Irish language when people emigrate, which they no longer have to do. The debate now is about concern, as expressed in this Chamber and by other people also, as to how best we can promote Irish. I have no doubt that there are some people who may be dissatisfied with the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, and if I interpreted Senator O'Toole correctly, that possibly relates to the issue of An Daingean, but the Minister is the wrong target in this case. The target, if any, should be the legislation passed by the Houses of the Oireachtas, and that is to be fair to the Minister. For every person who may be dissatisfied with the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív——
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We are not having a discussion on the Minister now.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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——I could name hundreds, if not thousands who are very satisfied with him, as one of the most pioneering and innovative Ministers.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Now, that is confidence. It is no wonder the Government is in trouble.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I say this with the best of intentions. If the Senator wants to put An Daingean on one side of the balance sheet, put all the other issues relating to the promotion of Irish on the other side I can assure him which side of the weighing scales will go down. That is not to take from the fact that we need a debate and the concerns should be expressed. However, we should not detract personally from a Minister who has been one of the best this country has had when it comes to the promotion of the Irish language.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Not another one. There's a lot going on in the House this afternoon.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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The report issued today on health is very useful and seems to be generating discussion. I was impressed by the point Senator Henry made concerning metabolic diseases, and that this is an opportunity to identify diseases that new-born babies have, in order to save their lives. There was a report, yesterday, that in the city of Washington in the United States, it is estimated that one in 50 — or 2% of all its citizens — have the HIV virus. They have decided, starting from today, to offer a simple saliva test to everyone between the ages of 14 and 84, to enable them to see whether they have the HIV virus. That is a proactive step to ensure that people know ahead of time and are able to do something about it. It is rather like the metabolic diseases incidence that Senator Henry referred to.
We have attempted to do this with breast cancer and prostate cancer in order that people will know ahead of time and may do something about their condition. Money on its own does not solve the health problem. We must have a proactive approach to enable people to know in advance so that they can avoid discovering the bad news when it is far too late. We have not taken that step, so a debate on health will be very useful, regardless of whether it takes the form of a joint Oireachtas report or is debated in this House. I mentioned some years ago that I was impressed by the Chinese system under which the doctor gets paid until a person gets ill. When he or she gets ill, the doctor ceases to get any money, having been paid all the time when the patient was well. The doctor's job is to keep the patient well, not to make him or her better on becoming ill. If we had the same type of attitude there, then perhaps we should be taking steps to prevent rather than necessarily to cure.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Three other Senators are offering. As time is running out I shall not be able to accept any further speakers and I must ask Senators to be brief.
Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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I support a call for a debate on the recent health report. I agree with Senator Quinn that it is useful to have this report at this time. There are some aspects with which we all agree and some we will disagree with. I do not want to pre-empt what might be said in the course of that debate. However, one of the topics that annoys me on an ongoing basis is capital projects. Capital projects, by their very nature, are painfully slow. Take phase 2B of Mullingar Regional Hospital, for example, and the utterances made by Mr. Scanlan, the gentleman who was mentioned here recently. That was not acceptable to me because in so far as I am concerned the commitment we have stands.
Notwithstanding that, many issues need to be addressed. Performing hospitals such as Mullingar are not getting their fair share of case-mix money. The efforts of the professionals and other staff in those hospitals, from the top to the bottom, who are delivering the services in a most efficient way, are not being reflected in the allocation of the case-mix money. We are told that is to happen but in a different way. I will have to change my glasses to see where it is coming from, because it does not seem to be getting to Mullingar Regional Hospital.
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I am also looking forward to the debate on the report on the health service. I also wish to request a debate on Ireland's role in information technology at the earliest opportunity. ICT has become a major part of our economy. The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment is abroad working to find a niche market for Ireland in this area, but we should debate the situation as much work in ICT is now being outsourced to India.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I would welcome a comprehensive debate on the health service, rather than on a statistical report, outlining the progress, the achievements, the difficulties and problems, as well as the hopes and promises that have not been fulfilled and why that is the case.
There is a more recent statistic on health which should be taken into account as it is the bottom line, namely, the substantial improvement in life expectancy since 1996. That is what much of the health service is about.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The Government is not taking credit for that.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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What about the life expectancy of this Government?
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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Improvement in life expectancy is what the health service is about, in part anyway. We should also debate prescriptions. The Labour Party health spokesperson spoke this morning about the universal health insurance policy. In other words, the insurance companies would effectively control hospitals. If that is still Labour Party policy, I would like to hear the Fine Gael response to it——
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I would be more worried about the Senator's party.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I do not know why Senator Hayes is decrying life expectancy. I would also welcome a comprehensive debate on health, but this survey is riddled with untruths. Surely this is a House of truth and if we have a debate on health, there will be a chance to puncture the untruths. The first untruth is where the survey states that a patient cannot have a same-day service from his or her family doctor. I have never had an experience where I could not reach my family doctor, be it where I had to go into him or he had to come out to me. The report stated that this is not the case in Ireland, but that is a total lie.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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It is not necessarily a lie. It is very hard to get a new doctor.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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With all due respect to the Leader, we will not debate this report.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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That is the point. The report stated a blanket "No".
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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It is not in order to debate the report.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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This is a House of truth and we should be able to face the truth. The report states that one cannot get a doctor in Ireland, but that is a lie. Does anybody agree with me?
Mary WhiteRory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader to speak on the Order of Business.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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That survey is riddled with such filth.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I am telling the Cathaoirleach that.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I want the Leader to reply to the Order of Business.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader is initiating a debate on a report which is not relevant to the Order of Business.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes and others had a juicy morsel and were salivating. I would not blame them. If I was in Opposition, I would be jumping up and down as well. However, I am not in Opposition and it is my job to tell the truth. It is not the job of the Opposition to tell the truth.
Senator Hayes spoke about the National Treatment Purchase Fund.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I think it is a wonderful system. Many of my constituents have used it to get their hips and knees done.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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In Ireland. My patients do not wish to go anywhere else to get their treatment. Apologies, I meant to say my constituents.
David Norris (Independent)
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Perhaps it is because the Leader has a doctorate, apparently she is not the only one in the House who recently got one.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Hayes also asked about No. 12 on the Order Paper and he received an ample reply from Senator Dardis, who clarified the status of that Bill. I see Senator Morrissey is now in the House.
Senator O'Toole asked about the public and private sectors working together and the state of the Irish language. While he does not have any concern about gaelscoileanna having better pupil-teacher ratios, he wished all schools had such a ratio, in which case Irish as taught in other schools would improve greatly. He raised the matter of the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. We will be dealing with that issue later.
Senator Ryan spoke about printers who are willing to print textbooks in Irish, but they are not being printed. He referred to the league tables for health. While Opposition Senators have some morsel today, it is a morsel riddled with untruths. He stated that the Government spent 25% less than the four top countries, which is also not true. I am only answering the points raised. Total health spending as a percentage of GNP, which is the appropriate measurement, is 8.9%, which is precisely the OECD average. I am telling the Senator and I recommend that he read the survey. When one pierces it through——
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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That does not address Senator Ryan's point.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I never described it thus. It is the top four.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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Opposition Senators would hate to read the survey, as they would then need to talk about facts.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator said the rich in Ireland paid no tax. Apparently a proportion of the rich do not pay tax. This is a fact from 2002. I cannot sit back like an old cow and take everything the Opposition Senators are throwing at me without telling them they are not telling the truth.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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What about the promise to end waiting lists within two years?
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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They should not have told those ones either. They are untruths as well.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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We must listen to the bulls from the other side.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Those are statistics to which Deputy Burton replied in a wailing voice. When it was pointed out that the figures related to 2002, she said that all the improvements introduced by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, would not come into play until 2008. However, the Minister has initiated them and they will come into play.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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They will need to find another way to avoid paying.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator raised an issue on which I agree with him, namely, bankers' pay. They are not being sought for recruitment in other countries and yet they have very significant dosh.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Perhaps the Taoiseach would say that sometime.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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They are paid eight times what the Taoiseach is paid. I would be delighted to tell the Taoiseach that Senator Ryan stood up for his monetary awards.
Senator Dardis defended both the consumer health matter and the Private Members' Bill. Senator Coghlan spoke about consumer rights. The consumer protection Bill is expected to be published in 2007 and the Senator received a special note in that regard.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Leyden spoke about the Palestinian issue and begged the Hamas-led Government to release the 19 year old, with which we all agree, as it will only lead to further tit-for-tat reprisals.
Senator Norris spoke about the health treatment debate. Under the National Treatment Purchase Fund, patients do not go abroad for treatment, but get it in Ireland.
David Norris (Independent)
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I understand they sometimes go abroad. My point is that as we receive no costings whatever, we do not know whether we are getting good value.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Most of the ordinary procedures are carried out in Ireland. The Senator also referred to the comments of the Secretary General of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform concerning being ambushed by the courts. That whole issue defeats me——
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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——as it seems there is never a way of penetrating it to get to the truth. Senator Dooley called for a debate on the full delivery of health services.
Senator Browne was extremely balanced in his critique. He said the report on the health services was not as bad as it was made out to be. I hope he will share his opinion with Deputy Kenny and Senator Brian Hayes.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It is no doubt noted for further report.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I remarked, however, that the report revealed a number of problems.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Referring to Norway, Senator Browne correctly pointed out that money is not the solution. One can pile money on a problem without improving the result. There is no doubt that reforms are needed. The Senator also sought clarification on the nursing home charges repayment scheme.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I also called for debate on the sugar beet sector.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Feeney raised the issue of sudden cardiac arrest. A 17 year old man, who had just completed his leaving certificate, died last night.
Senator Henry's intervention, which I regard as very serious, concerned an unpublished report on a treatment for children with metabolic disorders. Regardless of the veracity of the report on the health service, the report referred to by Senator Henry should be published forthwith.
Senator Ó Murchú raised the issue of aid for the Gaeltacht and gave a stirring defence of the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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He is the best Minister ever, apparently.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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That rules out a lot. Senator Quinn described the health report as useful and called for a debate on its contents. I too would like to hold a debate on the matter, so that untruths could be revealed for the fibs they are. The Senator also described a saliva test used in Washington to detect HIV.
Regarding the Chinese health service example, is it correct to say doctors are not paid when people get better? If so, that is awful because it would suit them for people to continue feeling unwell.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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Payments are made for keeping them well.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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My advice is that it is better not to have to go to any of them in the first place. Senator Glynn remarked that it would be useful to hold a debate on health. He also raised the issue of phase 2B in Mullingar hospital, which, he claimed, is not receiving enough attention because capital projects are proceeding too slowly. I agree with the Senator that Mullingar hospital is a good facility.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Hanafin called for debate on the ICT sector. Senator Mansergh called for a comprehensive debate on the health service. Members of the Opposition found great hilarity in his credible argument that we are living much longer.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I suspect the Senator was claiming the credit for Fianna Fáil.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I referred to the period since 1996. I did not make any special claims, so the Senator can draw his own conclusions.