Seanad debates
Wednesday, 24 May 2006
Employment Permits Bill 2005: Second Stage.
11:00 am
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This Bill passed all Stages in the Dáil following a constructive and wide-ranging debate. We were happy to take on board a number of Opposition amendments where we felt they made genuine improvements to the Bill.
In overall terms, the Bill provides a framework within which there is the flexibility to adapt and use different migration policy instruments to respond to changes in the economy and labour market as they arise. Flexibility is the key to this legislative framework. The Bill has two key objectives. First, it puts in place a statutory foundation which will be built upon to implement an active and managed economic migration policy. The three pillars of this employment permit policy will be green cards, an intra-company transfer scheme and a revised work permits system. Second, it provides a number of new and important protections for migrant workers in the Irish labour force. I intend to describe the context for the Bill, I will then discuss its primary objectives and I will conclude by describing the sections of the Bill in detail.
As regards context, economic migration policy must be responsive to different stages of economic development and labour market conditions. Our own recent experience teaches us this lesson. Ireland has moved from being a country of emigration to one of immigration in a remarkably short period. In 1986 the unemployment rates was over 17% and almost 45,000 people were emigrating annually. Twenty years later the Irish economy has experienced a major reversal in fortunes. The economy continues to perform strongly. Economic growth of approximately 4.6% is projected for this year and strong growth is also expected for 2007. In consequence, total employment is projected to rise by over 3%, or 60,000, this year, while unemployment will be at a low rate of 4.3%.
We cannot be complacent. We must quickly develop an innovation-driven, knowledge-based economy if we are to continue to compete in the global marketplace. This means that we need to upskill our workforce. Our skills policy will be predicated, first, on upskilling our resident workforce; second, on maximising the potential of EEA nationals to fill our skills deficits; and, third, on the introduction of a new green card and revised work permit system for non-EEA nationals to fill strategic high skills deficits which cannot otherwise be resolved. Our buoyant employment market has attracted workers from abroad. We now have significant inward migration made up of returning Irish nationals, workers from the European Economic Area — including the new accession states, non-EEA nationals which are the subject of this Bill, and considerable numbers of students. Most of those coming to Ireland to work in the past two years have been from the new EU member states.
On 1 May 2004 Ireland fully opened its labour market to the nationals of these new EU states. Since then nationals of these states have been free to come to Ireland to work or reside without restriction or prior permission. They may change employment as circumstances or opportunities arise. The only requirement for entry into the labour market is the need to arrange a personal public service or PPS number for social insurance purposes. This is a universal requirement and applies to Irish and non-national people working in Ireland.
Since May 2004 more than 200,000 PPS numbers have been issued to EU-ten nationals and Revenue data indicate that approximately 70% of them may have participated in our labour market at some stage. Many will have come to work in Ireland for a while before going home again. This influx from the new accession states has had a major impact on the number of work permits being granted. The number of new work permits issued has fallen from close to 22,000 in 2003 to just less than 7,400 last year. There would also have been renewals of permits.
Employers source most of their labour requirements from within the enlarged European Union. In general, a sufficient pool of potential labour exists within the European Economic Area to meet Ireland's requirements for low skilled jobs but not all of our high skills needs can be met from this source.
The report published by the expert group on future skills needs and Forfás in October 2005, entitled Skills Needs in the Irish Economy: the Role of Migration, identified sectors where the skills needs of our economy would not be met from within Ireland or the European Economic Area. These sectors include information and communications technology, health care, construction, financial services, engineering, pharmaceutical and biotechnology.
In this context, the Bill puts in place a statutory framework within which a responsive, managed and skills-based immigration policy can be implemented. Economic migration policy for nationals from outside the EEA will be vacancy-driven rather than based on quotas or points. That means that the core of the policy is the offer of a job. It will be transparent and have the potential to react to changing labour market conditions. It will provide protections for migrant workers from potential abuse by unscrupulous employers.
I will outline the main features of the new green card and work permit arrangements. The green card system will be for occupations where there are high level or strategic skills shortages. The key features of this new green card system will be as follows. Where the annual salary, excluding bonuses, on offer is in excess of €60,000, which is twice the average industrial wage, the green card will be available for an extensive list of occupations. In effect, all occupations except those which would not be in the national interest offering this level of remuneration will benefit from this valuable concession. The new green card arrangements will comprise immediate family reunification and immediate unrestricted access to employment for spouses and normally a pathway to permanent residency after two years. Green cards will also be available in the annual salary range from €30,000 to €60,000, which is between the average industrial wage and twice that level, for a restricted number of strategically important occupations where we are experiencing skills shortages. These occupations will be identified taking into account the advice of the expert group and will be reviewed on a regular basis. The new green card system will ensure that Ireland can attract and retain the skilled personnel needed to quickly move our economy to one in line with the vision of the enterprise strategy group's report.
The revised work permit system will have the following features. Work permits would have to be applied for in respect of those occupations in the annual salary range from €30,000 to €60,000 for which green cards will not be issued and a limited number of occupations below an annual salary of €30,000 where there are significant labour shortages; these occupations will be identified after taking the advice of the expert group. In both cases a labour market test, including advertisements in the national and-or local press, showing that the positions could not be filled from within the EEA, will need to be met. Work permits will be granted first for a period of two years, and then for a further period of three years. The fee will be the same as now — €500 per annum; in other words, €1,000 for the first two-year period and €1,500 for the following three year period.
The intra-company transfer scheme will also be re-established on a formaI basis under the new employment permit system. This scheme allows for temporary key management transfers from overseas associate or affiliate companies to their Irish branches or headquarters. This scheme of permitting these transfers, which may be for up to five years, will align our system with current best international practice in this regard.
Another key objective of the Bill is to strengthen the protections for migrant workers. On application by either employer or employee, the green card or work permit will be granted to the employee; and the permit will contain a statement of the entitlements of the migrant worker including their remuneration, their right to change employers, and any deductions for board and accommodation. It will be accompanied by a summary of the principal employment rights of the employee. An employer who contravenes any of the provisions of the Bill is guilty of an offence and may be liable for a fine of €5,000 up to €50,000 and-or imprisonment for a period from 12 months up to five years. I acknowledge the welcome which these provisions received in the Dáil.
Section 1 provides definitions for certain terms used throughout the Bill. In addition, subsections (2) and (3) address the circumstances under which a recognised employment agency enters into a contract with a person to work or perform a service for a third party. Employment agencies may not apply for an employment permits on behalf of a third party. Members will no doubt be pleased to note that the more appropriate term "foreign national" has replaced "non-national" in the Bill.
Sections 2 and 3 amend section 2 of the Employment Permits Act 2003 to allow the employment of foreign nationals in accordance with the provisions of section 7. An amendment was introduced on Committee Stage which placed the duty on a primary contractor using sub-contractors who in turn employ non-EEA workers to perform a task or render a service to ensure that such workers are permitted to work in the State under the employment permit arrangements.
Sections 4 to 6 state the various conditions under which an application for an employment permit may be made and the information which must be provided. Section 4 provides for the making of an application and outlines the four categories of persons who may apply for an employment permit under this Act — an employer in the State, a foreign national, a foreign contractual service supplier, and any other person party to the employment of a foreign national in the State.
Section 5 provides that all employment permits are granted to the foreign national employee, irrespective of who is the applicant. This is one of the more significant changes that the Bill proposes. Work permits are currently issued to the employer. Granting them to the employee will increase the power of migrant workers in the employment relationship.
Section 6 specifies the information to be provided in an application for a permit by an employer. The information which is required mirrors existing specifications with regard to work permit applications. It ensures that the proposed candidate has the necessary skills qualifications and-or experience for the position and that the position is of a nature that would require to be filled by a foreign national.
Section 7 specifies the information to be provided in an application for a permit by a foreign national, that is, in applications for green cards by foreign national employees. This information is currently required to be provided by applicants for work visa or work authorisation.
Section 8 provides for the granting of employment permits by the Minister. This is a fundamental part of the employment permit process, which until now has not been provided for in legislation. It provides for the granting by regulation of permits of unlimited duration to foreign national applicants — that is, it will provide for the introduction of the new green card system.
Section 9 provides for the issuing of employment permits granted under section 7 and for particular information to be stated on the permit. An employment permit granted under section 7 shall be issued to the foreign national employee. Where the application was made by the employer a copy of the permit will be issued to them. Information relating to the rights and entitlements of the migrant worker, including their remuneration and a statement of the national minimum wage, the right to change employers and the prohibitions on deductions from remuneration and retention of personal documents will be stated on the work permit.
Section 10 is designed to meet our EU treaty "Community preference" obligations not to grant an employment permit unless it has been offered to EU nationals first. Section 11 stipulates further conditions for consideration when granting of work permits, including ascertaining the legitimacy of applications for employment permits, the economic policy of the Government at the time and the terms of any regulations in force regarding the granting of employment permits.
Section 12 outlines the conditions for refusal to grant an employment permit and the procedures to be applied when an application has been refused. Section 13 provides for review procedures in the case of a decision to refuse to grant an employment permit under section 12. Section 14 deals with the making of regulations governing the granting and renewal of employment permits, including limiting the number of permits granted, the categories of employment and qualifications or skills and the period covered by the permit. This section together with section 15 enables the Minister to monitor and adjust the employment permits system in line with prevailing economic conditions.
Section 15 specifies the criteria that must be observed when making regulations under section 14. These criteria relate to economic and social development and competitiveness in the State.
Section 16 lays down the conditions under which the Minister may revoke an employment permit and sets out the conditions that determine at what stage the revocation will take place. Section 17 provides the conditions under which a decision to revoke an employment permit may be submitted to the Minister for review. If the decision to revoke an employment permit is cancelled, the period for which the permit ceased to be valid is disregarded.
Sections 18 and 19 describe various misuses of employment permits that are prohibited and provide that persons in contradiction of these provisions are guilty of an offence. Such misuses include forgery and fraudulent use or alteration of employment permits, or illegal transfer of permits. Section 20 provides for the renewal of employment permits in various circumstances. A significant aspect of this section is its provision to allow the renewal by regulation of permits of unlimited duration. This in effect allows the provision of permanent residency for the foreign nationals concerned. Applicants must confirm they have complied with the terms of the permit and of this Act up to the point of application for renewal, if deemed necessary. As is the present practice, it is not necessary for them to undertake a labour market test to ensure the skills deemed necessary for the employment cannot be sourced locally. Section 21 allows for the cessation and reinstatement of employment permits in line with orders made under the Immigration Act 1999.
Section 22 provides for the appointment and conditions of officers authorised for the purposes of the Act. In practice, the Garda National Immigration Bureau enforces the law on illegal working. The labour inspectorate of my Department has responsibility for the monitoring and enforcement of the rights, protections and entitlements under the employment protection legislation.
Section 23 provides additional statutory protection for migrant workers, which include the prohibition on employers either deducting recruitment expenses from remuneration or from retaining workers' personal documents, including passports. Any employer or person acting on his or her behalf, who contravenes any of the provisions of this section, is guilty of an offence.
Section 24 provides for the circumstances pertaining to the surrender of an employment permit. The holder is obliged to return the permit to my Department within four weeks of the date the employment ceased. Section 25 relates to the provision of false or misleading information, which is an offence. Section 26 was introduced on Committee Stage in the Dáil. It prohibits an employer penalising an employee for making a complaint to a member of the Garda Síochána or the Minister that a provision of the Act of 2003 or this Act is not being complied with, giving evidence in any proceedings under the Act of 2003 or this Act, or giving notice of his or her intention to do any of these things.
Section 27 obliges employers to retain, make available and furnish to an authorised officer if requested, books, records and accounts concerning a foreign national employee. A person who contravenes this section is guilty of an offence.
Section 28 provides for the establishment and maintenance of a register of employment permits granted under the Act. This information is already recorded by my Department. Sections 29 and 30 enable the Minister to make regulations to govern the procedures with regard to the application and renewal of an employment permit and on other issues referred to in the Act. Section 30 provides for the laying before the Houses of the Oireachtas of regulations made under section 14. These sections deal primarily with administrative matters.
Section 31 provides for the serving of notices and their requirements. Section 32 provides for penalties and proceedings with regard to offences incurred under this Act. On conviction for an offence under this Act, a person may be liable for a fine from €5,000 up to €50,000 and-or imprisonment for a period from 12 months up to five years. Section 33 qualifies section 32 by setting out a standard provision on offences by corporate bodies and places responsibility for such offences on individuals where appropriate.
Section 34 was introduced on Committee Stage in the Dáil and has the effect that if an immigration officer or an authorised officer under this Act observes a person performing a task consistent with the person being employed in that workplace, then unless the contrary can be proved, that person is deemed to be so employed. Section 35 was also introduced on Committee Stage. It provides for the giving of evidence through a live television link in any proceedings for an offence under the Act.
Sections 36 to 41 provide for the delegation of certain functions to officers, data exchange with other Departments, transitional arrangements for permits currently in force, deletes the definition of non-national and substitutes foreign national in the 2003 Act, provides sanction for the expenditure incurred in the implementation of this Act and the preliminaries common to all legislation.
By means of Schedule 1, the Minister may refuse to grant an employment permit if an offence is committed under any of the Acts listed in this Schedule. Schedule 2 permits an employee to complain to a rights commissioner regarding breaches of this Act and the 2003 Act.
I commend the legislation to the House. It is balanced and strategic and is particularly important in terms of the development of the Irish economy. For the first time it puts on a statutory basis a framework for modern economic migration policy. A constructive debate was held on the legislation in the other House and the Bill was amended in accordance with a number of the wishes of Dáil Members. It therefore arrives in this House as a stronger, enhanced Bill. I look forward to the debate which will now ensue.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister to the House, and welcome his remarks generally, particularly what he said about the raft of amendments submitted by my colleague, Deputy Hogan, in the Dáil, which the Minister accepted on Report Stage. Accordingly we will be accepting the Bill at this point.
The country's immigration system has been something of a shambles and I welcome what the Minister said about providing a proper framework. Immigration is the greatest social challenge we face. We all accept we need foreign workers. We benefit from them, and our society is richer for their presence. I particularly welcome the Minister's assertion that the term "foreign national" is much more appropriate than "non-national". In any event, immigration is a challenge we must face, and please God, will do so successfully as a country.
It is worth reflecting on the statistical analysis of Mr. Aidan Punch of the Central Statistics Office, who commented that the republic's population is expected to jump from the current level of just over 4 million people to 5.5 million by 2030. He went on to say in his speech to the Magill summer school that births are projected to average around 63,300 annually, with deaths averaging 32,400, leading to an annual natural increase in population of 30,900. However, migration is projected to differ markedly from that experienced in the past. In short, we have a job to do.
Upon publication on the Bill, the Minister stated with regard to work permits that the legislation will enable the Minister every two years to set the maximum number of employment permits to be issued both in total and by sector to identify the skills and qualifications required for the grant of a permit and to identify the categories of employment which may or may not be subject to the granting of permits. That is entirely right, and we welcome the provision. I also welcome the provisions in the Bill for migrant protection. The shocking revelations at Gama and Irish Ferries — which it seems considered €1 an hour a fair and equitable wage — have become the lightning rods for criticism of a modern Irish society that increasingly knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. However, I worry that while we are creating more law, we may be doing nothing about order. We have already witnessed this year flagrant breaches of existing laws designed to protect Irish and non-Irish workers. In Gama Construction's offices in Santry in North Dublin, ingenious schemes were cooked up to pay those unfortunate workers half nothing while they built the country, and nothing was done. Not one individual has been punished for the disgraceful treatment of an Irish Ferries employee who had to go to the Labour Court to get her thoroughly deserved €25,000 compensation from Irish Ferries, whose status as the pariah of Irish industrial relations solidifies with every passing day.
Now, the Minister comes to us with more legislation but tells us little of how it will be enforced. While I broadly accept what he says, I would like to know what extra resources will be made available to the labour inspectorate and other bodies which will enforce the legislation, how the Department intends to communicate these new rights to migrant workers and how the Minister intends to co-operate with foreign embassies in ensuring these rights are translated into meaningful improvements for migrant workers upon entry to this country.
The Government does not have a good track record when it comes to cross-cutting initiatives. If it did, this Bill would have been announced as part of a package of measures promoted jointly by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Foreign Affairs. Needless to say, one arm of Government often does not know what the other is doing. It would be good if the Minister would answer the questions I have asked.
The Minister will be aware that our international reputation took another hit last month when the Polish edition of Newsweek reported that Ireland was a "living hell" for many Poles, who arrived expecting to be able to pick and choose jobs and instead found themselves sleeping rough and living on charity. The Polish Embassy has suggested that approximately 10,000 Poles living in this country are experiencing difficulty. Astoundingly, it is not just the "pinkos", as the former Minister for Finance would have called them, who have been calling on the Government to get the lead out on this issue. No more conservative body than IBEC has been calling for a proper immigration and green card system. In incurring the wrath of CORI and IBEC, the Government seems to have mastered the art of pleasing none of the people none of the time.
This Bill must work effectively. I hope the Minister is willing to be flexible on Committee Stage. I have put down few amendments because I accept what the Minister said about amendments in the Lower House. Without foreign labour, our roads will not be built, our service industries will collapse and our way of life will suffer. I am sure the Minister accepts that. That flow of foreign labour will quickly find somewhere else to go if we gain a reputation for exploitation.
Why does the Bill make no reference to the spouses and families of the tens of thousands of workers who will be allowed to come here? This is a glaring omission. We cannot seriously hope to attract enough people of a high enough calibre if we are not willing to allow their families avail of the same rights. By failing to allow families, as opposed to individuals, apply for these green cards, we severely limit our chances of attracting quality candidates. More importantly, perhaps, we are consigning those who do not come with their families to a life of misery.
It is amazing that this opportunity has been missed. Perhaps it is symptomatic of the Government's uncaring approach to this problem — do the least amount possible for the least number. These people do not vote so there might be an attitude that they do not matter.
Nevertheless, we are broadly at one with the Minister on this issue. We will support the Bill on Second Stage. We must be up-front and honest in establishing the economic case for immigration, setting a level and establishing and enforcing a sensible, compassionate immigration policy that will allow the engine of the economy to continue to run. I sincerely hope the Minister agrees.
12:00 pm
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for personally bringing this Bill before the House. He will have the full co-operation of all sides of the House in making the Bill law as quickly as possible. Hopefully, Committee and Report Stages will be completed next week. It is important legislation.
I commend the Minister on bringing this progressive Bill forward and am delighted to have an opportunity to speak on it. Our economic growth has been fuelled in no small part by the influx of workers from around the world. The Government's progressive strategy was demonstrated by its brave decision to allow workers from the new EU member states to live and work in Ireland. This decision has benefited not only our economy but also our society in terms of the diversity one sees in every town in the country.
I had some reservations about that policy at the time because I feared a greater influx than actually occurred. The Government made a strategic decision and I believe the new members of the European Union appreciate our gesture. It has benefited us economically and I am sure the Minister will discover, in the context of his work on trade issues, that he will face an open door in the new member states. The Government must do everything in its power to make it easier for hard working, honest people to come to Ireland and use their skills. These people come to Ireland not to sponge off our workforce but to make a better life for themselves and their families. These are qualities which I and everybody throughout the country admire.
It is interesting to reflect that what is happening now in our economy could not have been foreseen 20 years ago. At that time, Ireland was providing employees for Britain and other countries. Irish people contributed greatly to the building of Britain and the United States of America. Our work is known throughout the world. I am the youngest in a family of eight and five members of my family are working in both Britain and the United States. That is an indication of what happened to families in the 1940s and 1950s. There was huge emigration. It was a hardship for families to part. There was almost no telephone service and certainly no mobile phones. It was a difficult time for Irish families.
It is wonderful, therefore, that the Minister and the Government are giving an opportunity to people from abroad to come to Ireland and secure employment. We are reciprocating what was done for us in Britain and elsewhere. In fairness, Britain was good to our workers, although our workers were equally good for that country because they built its economy in all industrial sectors, particularly nursing, services and the car industry. In the United States, there are 40 million people of Irish descent. In every part of the United States there are Irish people who have made a major contribution to that country.
There have been a number of scandals about the under-payment of immigrant workers in Ireland. It is clear that employment rights and permits must be tailor made to suit Government policy. When workers such as the Turkish construction workers employed by Gama, to take just one example, are not receiving fair reward for the contribution they make to our economy and society, something is amiss. This Bill will resolve that problem. It will empower the workers who are essential for our sustained economic growth.
The ESRI and other organisations have pointed to the need for migrant labour to meet the workforce demands of our buoyant economy. Immigration will be essential if we are to maintain the economy while providing quality support for our increasing retired population. The existing employment permits legislation, which was introduced in 2003, has been overtaken by the massive surge in immigration. The policy of requiring employers to apply for work permits on behalf of their employees often resulted in immigrant workers feeling powerless and beholden to their employers.
This issue has been raised many times and the Minister has decided to resolve it in an intelligent way. The Department has drafted an excellent Bill and the debate on it in the Dáil was most constructive. I commend the Minister for accepting well thought out amendments that are beneficial. We are all in this situation together. It affects Ireland incorporated. Every Member of the House would prefer to have an improved situation.
The current situation is extraordinary. The employer has control over the employee. There have been many examples of people who were controlled in terms of the houses they rented and the services that were provided for them. They had no recourse to moving employment. The Bill gives them this opportunity, which tremendously empowers them.
There is great loyalty among those workers. I have seen them in Roscommon where they work in Kepak in Athleague, Hannons Poultry and other industries. They are mainly Brazilian and are highly qualified in that sector. They have made a contribution to the economy. No Irish person has complained to me that they could not get a job in those industries. This is because they are simply not interested in those jobs and are not prepared to take them.
This is also probably due to our education system. The Minister, as a former Minister for Education and Science, will recall the contribution he made to the system, particularly in primary schools with the provision of computers. Although Ireland missed the industrial revolution, it is at the cutting edge of the knowledge-based information and communications technology revolution. Our young people, the best-educated workforce in the history of State, are attracted to working in this field. Most young people go on to third level education and the Government has recognised it must develop fourth level education.
The introduction of free second level education by Donogh O'Malley was the greatest innovative policy in the history of the State. Senator Norris and I visited Kenya several weeks ago. Education is much sought after there and is provided by Irish missionaries. I was astounded that second level education must be paid for by people who are impoverished. Due to drought and the subsequent loss of cattle herds, many people cannot pay fees for secondary education. The lack of access to education is one of the reasons why Kenya and other African countries are being held back.
The introduction of free second level education, the brainchild of the Lemass Government, was an innovative policy. Before then, it was an economic burden for people to send their children to secondary school. It was an even greater burden to send children on to university. Many intelligent children were deprived due to the economic situation. Free second level education was the greatest investment by the State which is now yielding results. The economic results mean the Minister has had to introduce the Bill because Ireland needs more skilled workers than it can provide itself. One lesson that other countries can learn from our experience is that the provision of free education was the largest contributory factor to the Celtic tiger.
Abuse of the immigration system allowed groups of employers to undercut those who play by the rules. The Irish workforce stands with the best in the world. No Irish worker needs fear competition from immigrants once the playing field is level. The Employment Permits Bill will level the playing field. The Bill will stand the test of time as it is well crafted. I welcome the provision to ensure employment permits will in future be issued to the employee. The permit will state the certain rights and entitlements of the worker concerned and will prohibit an employer holding on to an employee's personal documents. The key to a fair workplace is the empowerment of employees. The Government has an admirable record when it comes to protecting workers' rights. I am pleased to see this protection extending to immigrant workers.
I want the Government to work to a position where Ireland can attract workers from all over the world, a scenario where we can fill jobs with the best people regardless from where they come. Such a scenario would benefit those born in Ireland as much as it would benefit those who, as the national anthem states, "come from a land beyond the waves, sworn to be free". In rural areas, it is difficult to attract Irish people to work in the agrifood sector. It is mainly people from abroad who now work in it. Immigrant workers have contributed greatly to dramatic changes in rural areas. The atmosphere in towns such as Roscommon has been greatly enhanced by the new workers, whether they are Polish, Latvian or Brazilian.
I note the Government's concern with workers from the new EU applicant states coming to Ireland and that the strategy must be worked out when their accession occurs. I welcome this cautious approach because there must be some form of regulation for workers coming from those states to Ireland. The skills should fit the available jobs. If, for example, there is shortage of builders, then it should be addressed first. An excess number of permits awarded for a particular skill should not be allowed.
My family has been in the stonemasonry trade for generations. Polish stonemasons now share their skills with their Irish counterparts. One can see the slight variations in stonework designs, which all adds to society. In rural areas, there is a great harmony between the Irish and immigrants. Towns, like Roscommon, are booming because of the new influx of immigrants. There was a time when none of the major supermarkets was located in Roscommon, now all the main ones are.
It is a great time to be in politics. In the 1980s when there were great economic difficulties, we took hard decisions and many politicians suffered electorally. The right decisions were made and the results are now evident. I wish the Administration great success and hope it is returned to power. Members should not care about the recent opinion poll because that was just a day in the life. When people realise they should not risk the future, they will vote the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats back into Government.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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There will be no political broadcasts in the Chamber.
David Norris (Independent)
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Unlike my colleagues I have not received any prepared scripts, so I will have to do a free-range job on this matter.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Free-range and organic.
David Norris (Independent)
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I welcome most of the timely provisions in the Bill. I have raised as a humanitarian matter the plight of migrant workers. I remember seeing two unfortunate young Turkish lads in floods of tears on Butt Bridge. They had come to Ireland on the understanding they had jobs and work permits. When they arrived, they discovered they were defrauded and viciously exploited by Irish employers. Without enough money to get home, they were forced to live on credit and in hostels. The Minister will recall the plight of some Polish workers in Donegal, who were promised jobs by a local builder but who left them high and dry. I am glad traditional Irish hospitality came into play. The woman, in whose guesthouse they were staying, went on the airwaves outlining their cases and they managed to get other jobs.
These types of situations have not really gone away. I was horrified by the recent situation at Holles Street Hospital where nurses from the Philippines came to work on agreed contracts. Those contracts were welshed on and their employment conditions changed with a halving of their income. Some were bullied into accepting these changes. This is one of the principal medical institutions in the State. I am glad the master of the hospital has apologised for it.
I pay tribute to the work of Deputy Joe Higgins. Without his incisive intervention in the case of a group of Turkish workers in the construction industry, we still would have a difficult situation. Several of the issues clearly highlighted in that case, the proper keeping of records and the issuing of a work permit to the worker, are addressed in the Bill. It used to be the case that the employer had possession of the worker's work permit. The Bill provides for the employer or the employee to apply for the permit. Will the Minister explain why the employer should be included in this process? The permit should be the entitlement and the property of the individual worker.
The State retains an interest in the work permit and the right to have it returned. There is also some degree of a fee to be paid for it. I presume the €500 charge for the permit is cash up-front. That is a large sum of money for those workers coming from economically deprived areas, particularly when they must make other financial arrangements for accommodation and so forth. I assume the fee applies to those on lower wages who receive a work permit rather those on the green card. That introduces a class system for professionals such as doctors and those working at the cutting edge of science.
We are happy to take them and place them at an advantage because of our own requirements. That is acting clearly out of self interest, which is sometimes justifiable, but I am concerned about the creation of a two-tier system and class structure in what we are continually told is a classless republic in which all children of the nation are treated equally.
This is a new situation for people as long in the tooth as me. I remember when unemployment was the principal problem in this country. Senator Leyden referred to our visit to Kenya, where he visited many projects and I saw a few, and the situation in Nairobi is one of 80% unemployment. That was the level of unemployment in the area of Dublin I moved into during the late 1970s. It is horrifying but true that there was 85% unemployment in the north inner city. That is largely gone now and we are having difficulty filling jobs in key economic sectors and are looking abroad for workers.
This is an unusual situation that is positive in some ways but that also contains dangers. If we do not treat these people reasonably and decently, they will treat us in the same mercenary fashion we treat them and the minute they have made enough loot to buy a kiosk wherever they came from, they will leave and, very reasonably, feel they have no obligation to us and no reason to do other than leave us high and dry.
Once again there is a difference. The professional people are given immediate opportunities to reunite their families but those on the lower economic scale are not. I do not like that. I am an egalitarian and if we believe in the principle of family unity it should not be related to income unless there are good reasons. I cannot imagine what those reasons are and I do not think they can be simply economic because someone on €30,000, with the supports we have in this country, could afford to maintain a family.
Often in the case of nursing and medical staff, the spouse is also engaged in this line of work and could quite happily come here. I personally know a number of Filipino nurses and they are thoroughly disillusioned with this country. The Minister is a former Minister for Health and Children and will be aware of this fact. They have given extraordinary service in the health area, where the wages and conditions are not great, and often they are not given the facility to reunite with their families. This must be examined if we want these people to make their talents available.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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They have been allowed to reunite for the past two years.
David Norris (Independent)
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I am glad to hear that, perhaps my information is out of date. I welcome that and I am happy to be corrected.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Those on work visa applications, including in the health, technology and construction professional areas, form a separate category from those on work permits. They are allowed to bring their spouses to Ireland. The Bill also deals with them.
David Norris (Independent)
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That is the sort of information I welcome because my information is anecdotal and if the situation has improved, I welcome it.
Senator Leyden referred to the situation in Kenya. It is a country that must be beautiful in certain areas but the economic situation is horrendous. Many people want to leave and do not want to return. One of the problems arising from this is sophisticated and complex. We are cherry picking in areas such as health care, information and communications technology, construction, financial services, engineering and pharmaceutical biotechnology, skills which are badly needed in these poorer countries. We are impoverishing these people by removing their skills from their native environment. I acknowledge the difficulty that if we do not take them, someone else will, but it demonstrates the lack of balance. For that reason, I hesitate about this discriminatory idea of people earning over €60,000 enjoying immediate family reunification provisions when lower paid workers do not have the same access.
The Minister's explanation of the Bill was useful and I support much of it, such as the intercompany transfer scheme that brings us into line with the global economy. I do not see why the employer should have any right to apply for the employee's work permit. If the employee is concerned about it, he or she should be able to tell the employer to apply for it. I like the idea that the permit contains a statement of entitlements, including remuneration, and acknowledges in clear print a person's right to change employer. Often people felt as if they were bonded labourers.
Could there be a provision to deal with driving? A high proportion of accidents are caused by migrant workers. There should be a booklet made available to them containing the rules of the road and advice about where to get driving lessons. It might save some lives. I am not saying migrant workers are worse drivers than us but they are driving in unfamiliar circumstances.
Section 11 gives the Minister the right to vary the conditions for the granting of work permits in line with the economic policy of the Government of the time. The terms of any regulations enforced with regard to the granting of employment permits give power to the Minister and I hope these regulations will be put before the Oireachtas for approval, otherwise I will table an amendment. The ability to vary conditions and requirements for work permits without recourse to the Oireachtas grants a wide power to the Minister.
There are some good sections in the Bill. Section 26 prohibits an employer from penalising an employee who makes complaints to the Garda about mistreatment under this Act. What a terrible prospect. It is a reproach to us that we must introduce this provision because employers did penalise their workers for seeking to establish their rights. I am glad the Government is defending these rights.
The retention and making available of records is welcome, as is the maintenance of a register of employees. The scandals involving Turkish construction companies where there were no records or tax documents would not have been discovered without Deputy Joe Higgins.
It is also welcome that there is provision for the giving of evidence by live television link. Sometimes workers who have been badly treated, as we have seen historically, returned to their home country and found it difficult to return here, so this is useful. Permission is also granted under Schedule 2 to an employee to complain to a rights commissioner about breaches of this Act and the 2003 Act, a provision that must be welcomed.
In broad outline, I strongly support this Bill. Members from all sides have called for it on humanitarian terms. There is a balance in the Bill between a recognition of certain humanitarian elements and a strong element of self interest. It is up to the Minister and his advisors to balance these two elements and ensure that self interest does not overburden the provisions that are meant to take the welfare of the individual worker into account.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister to the House and regard this Bill as enlightened labour legislation, continuing a tradition that goes back to 1946 and which includes the Industrial Relations Act of 1990 and health and safety legislation. It is major legislation, for which I congratulate the Minister.
We all remember that in the late 1990s, in the full flush of the Celtic tiger economy, the economic migration and asylum system was somewhat ad hoc and chaotic. I am delighted that we have managed, over the last nine years, to put that area in order, largely speaking. I congratulate the Minister on this excellent Bill.
An issue that is of wider interest than just employment policy is the use of the term "foreign national" instead of "non-national". That is clearly an enlightened move because "non-national" could imply that one is referring to stateless persons, which is obviously not the case.
Along with three other Members of the Oireachtas, who are members of the Committees on Finance and Public Service, and Enterprise and Small Business, I attended an economic conference in Munich earlier this month, which was discussing off-shoring, out-sourcing and migration policies. Speaker after speaker referred to Ireland as an EU country that had got its migration policy broadly right and had benefitted from inward migration. The implication was that some of the larger continental countries had got it wrong and were having great difficulty filling highly-paid posts in sectors where, despite unemployment rates of 11%, there were skills shortages.
Factors such as our taxation policy, education system, membership of the eurozone and English-speaking population have made Ireland an extremely attractive place in which to do business, which attracts people to the country. Part of the problem 70 years ago was that conditions were more attractive in other countries, including the United States of America and Great Britain, which was why emigration continued. We have reversed that situation, I am glad to say, in the last ten years in particular.
Having made Ireland a very attractive place to do business, we need people who can carry out that business. Members will remember that 20 years ago there were skills shortages in certain areas. The expansion of European Union and the provisions of this legislation give us enormous flexibility. We are no longer forced to rely solely on the people we can train and educate ourselves. I have read supplements and long articles in French newspapers encouraging young graduates to seek employment in Ireland rather than demonstrating on the streets about employment law in France. The legislation will enable us to avoid acute labour shortages.
The Bill provides that the minimum wage will be specified on employment permits. What will happen where there are agreed minimum wage rates for a particular industry or sector? Is it to be understood by those obtaining work permits that such agreed rates will apply to them, rather than just the national statutory minimum wage?
I agree that the experience of the work permit system to date has been that it was lopsided and that exploitation undoubtedly took place. People felt vulnerable and dependent and, in that context, I welcome the fact the employees will be given the work permit and will be able to move, at least within the relevant sector, if necessary. That will contribute efficiencies to the whole economy. I also hope the Bill, along with other measures, will contribute to a successful outcome to the current social partnership talks.
I wish to draw the Minister's attention to an issue of concern. As public representatives, we regularly receive queries regarding employment permits. Sometimes people allow their permits to lapse briefly and encounter problems. They receive draft deportation orders and so forth. I recall, in particular, the case of a South African cook, who was very much appreciated in Tipperary town. He attended an employment conference addressed by the Tánaiste and former Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney, in 2000. At that time, which was prior to EU enlargement, the Department was busy recruiting people from other parts of the world. The man was facing a deportation order and found it very difficult to obtain an early response, either from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment or the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, to representations made on the matter. There will always be queries at the edges of the system and I would welcome a more streamlined and prompt response to correspondence or telephone calls.
I do not accept many of the reservations about the Bill expressed by Senator Norris. With all due respect, we are not talking about the children of the nation but about foreign nationals. Provided it is done in a clear and transparent manner, every country is entitled to make arrangements that accord with its own interests, even if it means differentiating between categories of people. It is also right that the Minister has a degree of flexibility in this area and can adjust the system at the edges according to labour market conditions. I have no difficulty in entrusting that power to him.
Concerns are expressed about Ireland drawing well-qualified people from countries where they are badly needed. However, there is a positive way of looking at that issue. Such people are gaining valuable work experience and are earning money. In some cases, they are building up a fund which will enable them to set up a business at home. While some will stay here and settle, many people will be here for only a two, three, four or five year period. They will then return home and that will be of benefit to their countries.
There was some correspondence in the newspapers, especially The Irish Times, suggesting that since we joined the European Union, and especially having regard to the state to which it has got now, we have lost 70% or 80% of our sovereignty. This legislation is a response to that. This is not EU-dictated legislation. It is us deciding on the appropriate employment permits regime we want and it clearly differs from some other EU countries. This process appears to be a clear exercise of sovereignty.
I congratulate the Minister on what I consider to be landmark social legislation which I believe will be of great benefit in helping to sustain the prosperity and forward momentum of this economy.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I, too, welcome the Minister to the Chamber. I am glad this legislation is being implemented. It is important social legislation which has a good economic background. Indeed, the Minister referred to an economic managed framework for employment. Over the past 12 months there was a plethora of cases — there is a new one every day — involving the wrong type of employment being given to people from other countries and in particular we heard about the abuses that have been perpetrated. The Minister did his very best in the Gama case but he was unable to get the necessary information to fully address the problem.
The procedures relating to the application grant and refusal of work permits are clear in this legislation. The Bill allows the Minister to introduce a green card type system for highly skilled migrant workers. That was necessary and perhaps when replying the Minister will indicate if that system has been introduced. In the case of a firm in Moate, a mathematician from India was the only person with the necessary skills for the computing type work available. He was the only one the employer could take on but he was not allowed to bring him into the country. When he eventually got him in his wife was not permitted to join him. It was a nightmare and a quagmire of giving with one hand and taking with the other. With this Bill the Minister will put a proper framework on many conflicting legislative measures governing the employment arena and that is welcome.
The Bill provides a number of new important protections for migrant employees. I gather the employer, and this is interesting, will continue to request the work permit but it is issued in the name of the employee. Is that correct?
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Giving more to the employees rather than treating them as pieces of baggage employers could take on and then summarily let go without little consultation is welcome. This sensible legislation is an outcome of all that has happened. I am sure it is the wish of the Department officials and the Minister to put a shape on all of that.
There was much huffing and puffing about taking on workers from the accession countries but if we did not have those workers all the Radisson hotels throughout the country would close because they are all staffed by very skilled, pleasant Polish people. Equally, many other places of employment would virtually close because we would not have the employees to fill the jobs available.
I was amazed recently to read the figures on the number of people here from the accession countries, more of whom I hope will follow. Those workers bring in their wake various attendant problems including housing needs. Also, the face of Ireland will change because intercultural marriages will take place and that will involve visits to and from the various countries, which is very interesting.
I am currently involved with a Polish family. The young woman concerned has got engaged to a very nice young Irish man. It is all very happy, I hope, but there is much toing and froing between the two countries. Her family are coming here in droves and his family are visiting Poland in droves and returning with stories about the wonders of other lands. That is all very interesting in a European context. One might visit Poland and someone from Poland might visit here but this interaction will be widespread and amazing for Irish people and those from countries like Poland from where this young woman comes. That is beside the point, however. Many are coming here.
As far as I can see the Bill does not address the question of the people who have been granted permission to stay; I am not sure of the proper term. They may not yet have citizenship but they have been given permission to stay here. They want to work. They can contribute. I am dealing with a couple in Athlone. The man is from Nigeria and is a computer software engineer. This couple got permission to remain here because they had an Irish-born child after the appropriate date. That is all in order and they are happy. His wife is attending the Athlone Institute of Technology. She did the access course and has now got a place on a college course beginning in September but that raises another question.
The VEC will not grant any amelioration to this woman, even though she would be considered a mature student. I realise that is not the Minister's field but the matter should be highlighted because this couple are not eligible for grants. The fee is €5,000 but she does not have that money and will never have it. He cannot get a job even though he has been granted leave to stay but he has not progressed beyond that part of the process. I suppose the next stage would be citizenship. I do not know if this Bill embraces that; I do not believe it does. These are skilled people who should be in the workforce but they cannot get into it because their papers state that they have leave to stay under the Irish-born child rule——
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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They are entitled to work without a permit to get back into the system.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for that information. There is an anomaly in regard to entitlement to educational grants. This couple are entitled to stay here and the Minister has indicated they are entitled to work without a work permit——
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The only other option might be the back to education allowance.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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That is not a huge amount and the fee for the year in the institute of technology is alarming for this person because she would not have a chance of paying it.
What is interesting also about the Bill is the fact that it makes us think of how far we have all come historically. I was reading a book recently — I forget the name of it — which referred to the fact that coloureds and Irish were told they need not apply in rooming houses and places of employment at the turn of the last century in the United States. Those people could not get employment because they were Irish and the Irish were considered feckless. That has all changed.
I applaud the Minister's vision in this legislation. It fits in with what I see as his social responsibility on which he was always very strong. It also fits in with our economic needs. The Minister has married the two successfully. He has allowed for economic growth in certain areas where it is highly necessary, in which we have lacunae that we cannot fill ourselves. The Minister has also allowed for our European policy of opening up the country to people from the accession states. We were one of only two countries which did so. The naysayers were full of doom and gloom, stating we would be overrun but that is not so. We are greatly enhanced by what has happened. This legislation will enhance it further.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all Senators who spoke for their broadly strong support for the legislation. I look forward to going through the details on Committee Stage. Senator Coghlan stated his party would accept the Bill.
A number of issues were raised, including the Gama situation, which is still before the Supreme Court. We worked on this issue through the Labour Relations Commission and the Labour Court, and with officials from the trade union movement. Officials from the Department worked extremely hard. They travelled to Finansbank in Holland, where accounts were held and it is estimated that approximately €24 million was recouped for the workers. That is a significant sum of money. My officials did a great deal of hard work with all concerned and we continue to work on that issue. We cannot comment on the legal aspects because it is still with the Supreme Court.
The concept of joined-up Government was mentioned. I work hand in glove with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on the issue of families applying for work permits. He will bring forward an immigration residency Bill and we have synergy between both Departments. While this legislation facilitates the issuing of a green card, which Senator O'Rourke stated was urgently required, the residency aspect will be determined by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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A one-stop shop will be created and, ultimately, we will have one system for people who apply for green cards, work permits and residency. That will involve the Departments of Foreign Affairs, Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Enterprise, Trade and Employment. It is evolving.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It has already been established, although my Department retains the economic migration policy function, which is important because we deal with industry, enterprise and business. The Departments of Foreign Affairs and Justice, Equality and Law Reform have already come together and we now work with that group. INIS is the name of the group, and its fundamental objective is to make it more effective and efficient for the individuals, companies and all concerned.
Recent changes to work permits mean the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will allow the spouses of work permit holders to also apply to come in. If they are above the family income supplement——
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Is that contemporaneously with their spouse?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, if they are above the family income supplement threshold. Some provisions will be made on that. The only issue is that people must have sustainable employment for the future. I will return to the issue of Senator Coghlan's sustainability policy later. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has already moved on that issue and articulated publicly on it. Work permits will be for two or three years once this legislation is passed and people will be able to bring their spouses. We recognise that the humanitarian aspect is common sense.
Senator Norris made a point on work visas. Work visas were introduced to fast-track employment in areas where we had skills shortages in the past, such as health and construction. They were allowed bring in their spouses approximately two years ago, for obvious competitive reasons.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is also the right thing to do. We learn as we go along. I stated before — Senator Mansergh made the same point — that in 1999 only 5,000 work permits were issued in this country. By 2003, 50,000 were issued annually. Since May 2004, 200,000 people have entered the country. It is rapid and fast-moving.
I met Bruce Morrison before I formulated the Bill and I had constructive engagement with him on it. He observed that Ireland has the highest per capita inward migration level globally. I do not know whether it is accurate. It may be disputed. The rate and pace has been extremely fast and enormous.
Senator Leyden spoke eloquently about the emigration experience of the Irish, which is always useful in the context of this debate. Senator O'Rourke also alluded to the fact that we should always remember our own who emigrated abroad, the experiences they had and the degree to which they contributed to economies and societies such as America and Australia and others across the world. It informs our mindset on how we approach people who now come here to settle, live and work.
Senator Leyden raised the issue of abuse of workers' rights and was particularly supportive of the Bill. The Bill is strong on worker protection. We have learned lessons from what has happened and people cannot complain about the strength of the Bill in this regard. We have good examples of where people did what they should not.
The vast majority of employers will welcome this. Abuse of any worker, irrespective of nationality, creates an unsatisfactory situation for all concerned. It is particularly reprehensible that already vulnerable people coming to this country would be exploited in such a manner. From a humanitarian perspective for the individual concerned, it is wrong. A lack of uniform standards also creates an uneven playing pitch in economic activity and competitiveness in tendering for projects.
Senator Norris raised a number of issues, including why an employer should continue to employ. Senator O'Rourke also posed that question. Many employees want to pursue a job. The Bill is based on the offer of vacant jobs. I accept that. An employee in another country may see a job advertised and apply for that job and a work permit. Equally, in some instances the employer may do so, such as in the case of Filipino nurses. There is nothing wrong with the Health Service Executive or the Mater Hospital making an application for a work permit on behalf of the employee. It saves them €500 if nothing else. The employer can organise and facilitate a great deal for the workers. The workers need not necessarily go down that route.
The Bill allows an employee to change employment after a year.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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If they see a new opportunity, they can apply for work permits to work there and approach the employer to ask whether he or she would employ them if they obtain work permits. If an employee has a bad experience during the first year, he or she can leave and we will facilitate him or her with a new work permit. This will ensure they do not have an unacceptable experience in terms of exploitation or abuse. That is also built into the legislation.
One cannot merely state that one does not want abuse. To counter abuse and exploitation, a traceability system is required.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The one advantage with the employer applying is that one can go to source quickly. One can ask for the books and state if the employer does not rectify what he or she has done wrong, he or she will never get a work permit again and the sanctions of the Bill will be applied.
Senator Mansergh raised the issue of the information on the work permit. The agreed remuneration rate will be on the work permit and will include registered employment agreements. The work permit will not issue unless the level of remuneration the employer is prepared to offer is clear in the application. Senator Norris raised the issue of self-interest and the salary thresholds pertaining to issuing of a green card. Senator Mansergh also mentioned payment rates.
In my speech I mentioned the significant work undertaken by Forfás and the expert skills group. That work, which we published prior to the Bill, informed much of the philosophy behind the Bill. Economic migration works if it is sustainable. If only low-skilled workers were brought in, the impact on social services, education and social welfare could quickly become unsustainable. I acknowledge that more work needs to be done internationally on this, but the evidence is that high-skilled inward migration assists the sustainability of the entire project. The green card system is for non-EU citizens, and this year we only issued 9,000 new work permits on top of approximately 20,000 reissued permits.
We know we have skills shortages in this country, and an expert group has identified clearly where they are. Required personnel include professionals in engineering or construction, financial services, health and research and development, which will increasingly be a function of State investment. It is important that we have the capacity to bring such people to Ireland. There are a number of ways this can be done but we went for the salary threshold methodology. The Bill gives a framework which can change over time, and I favour this approach. That is the reason regulations are important. It gives us flexibility without having to come back all the time with primary legislation. Regulations would have to be laid before the House, as is the case with all other regulations.
We have struck the correct balance. We have skills shortages and there is a degree of self-interest. No country in the world has an open situation where anybody can come in. With regard to the European experience, the ESRI carried out a study suggesting we are not maximising or optimising the skill levels of those coming from EU states. It is important that economic migration policy is managed to try to maximise economic growth. Ultimately, if added value comes from a migration policy and there is economic growth, it perpetuates a good scenario and cycle. Difficulties can arise if this does not come about.
The biggest challenge facing us will be integration.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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My Department is beginning to work on this issue. We have taken submissions and people are working on the challenges that the rapid inward migration pattern of recent years presents to Irish society, both at a societal level and from the Government's perspective of policies that need to be developed.
The permit must indicate a statement of the agreed remuneration, which relates to Senator Mansergh's point. This would indicate, where applicable, the amount payable under an employment regulation order or registered employment agreement. If the level of remuneration is not offered, the permit application is refused. The permit will be granted and issued in all cases to the employee, irrespective of who makes the application. Senator Norris asked a question on this issue.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The permit will go to the employee and it must include the agreed remuneration.
Section 9(3), as amended on Report Stage in the Dáil, provided that the permit shall include or be accompanied by a statement of the employee's employment rights and protections. A statement of the rights and entitlements under Irish labour law will be included.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Senator Norris raised that issue.
Senator Norris wondered if we were discriminating in favour of the highly skilled. We expect most of the low and medium-skilled to come from Europe. There are significant numbers coming in, and it does not make sense to duplicate that scenario with those from outside the EU. Over 200,000 people have come in since May 2004.
The Senator also raised the issue of the employer and we can consider the matter again on Committee Stage. It is important that employers have a right to apply for a work permit. One could argue with the Senator why they should not be allowed to do so.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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There should be portability for employees.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Senator Norris asked why employers should apply, but why should they not? There are many decent and honourable employers out there who will need to fill their skill needs. They may need to do it urgently, and there can be specialist niche areas. There should be a balanced approach, and this is provided for in the Bill.
Senator O'Rourke's points are important, particularly those regarding refugees and the parents of Irish-born children, who have now been accepted in terms of legislation. They can work without a work permit.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Some are moving on to the social welfare system also, as recent employment figures would show. People are now moving from the justice system into the social welfare and employment system. Those foreign nationals, in particular, who have been granted leave to stay in Ireland have the one-parent policy.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I do not know the title of those granted leave to stay.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Those with humanitarian needs are slightly different. Irish-born children have, in essence, residency and are here for good. Therefore, they can work and draw social welfare. It is only in the context of drawing social welfare that the idea sprang to mind in the specific case raised by the Senator. There may be room with regard to the back to education allowance.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not sure of the entitlements with regard to fees.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It is a matter for the Department of Education and Science.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will take the point on board and discuss it with the Minister, Deputy Hanafin. Part of our agenda in that respect will be to move people into the labour force. It would not be a good experience if people had to move out of the justice system — the accommodation centres, for example — on to social welfare. That is the case at the moment but we are anxious to act on this fairly quickly. People will have the opportunity to enter the labour force. The best way to do this is through access to education.
I thank the Senators for their contribution and look forward to discussing the Bill in detail on Committee Stage.